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kkoct-ik · 29 days ago

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milgram analysis: 'john' (orekoto, オレ) did not form to vent mikoto's stress through murder, and he is not the alter that 'did it'

(mainly me musing on how DID functions, as well as analysing the text. enjoy)

will be referring both to wiki and milgram-en's (Neoplasm, interrogation) translations. mainly wiki for gesturing, and milgram-en for textual analysis. thank you so much!

note on names: for the purposes of this post:

09 refers to the person/system, all parts included

mikoto refers to 09 with the exception of orekoto/'john' (ie. all his 'normative' / in denial / confused / playful demeanours). this is the alter who is 'on trial' for the purposes of Milgram, so I will also use this name when talking about voting

'john' refers to the 09 (オレ, ore) who claims in Neoplasm to be the alter who commit murder. I will also make the assumption that he is the same alter as 09 (俺, ore) in John Doe that attacks es, since he expresses familiarity with 俺's actions in John Doe

i'm working with translations and 09 is a complicated character, so please forgive any slip ups!

thank you for reading.

introduction: widely accepted fanon

i frequently see that mikoto's case is controversial on the axis of 'system responsibility'.

on the side of guilty voters, mikoto is guilty because he and john are part of the same system, and unfortunately, that means they share culpability. i often hear rhetoric implying that 09's DID means mikoto was functionally possessed, and that he had no say in the murders, but regardless, him being guilty is just an unfortunate logistical situation. it's just how it is.

this rhetoric also makes it easy to argue for his innocence, and counter with how unfair this expectation is. if DID means he was functionally possessed, couldn't control his actions, and his alter just went out and killed people, regardless of 'john' having any noble intentions, that's tragic and unfair.

aside from being a fucking horrific way to see someone with DID (implying alters' actions are burdens, foreign intrusions that you just have to deal with. no recognition or self compassion whatsoever. die), this discourse also rides on the assumption that between 'normative' mikoto and his alter dubbed 'john', mikoto had nothing to do with his crime. that 'john' formed as a result of overwhelming stress mikoto had bottled up, and, pitying him deeply, 'john' decided to find mikoto an outlet through murder, something mikoto did not consent to.

i don't blame anyone for coming to this conclusion or approaching 09's crime in this way. it is very very deeply what milgram leads you towards, and what 'john' wants you to believe is going on.

through the VDs and MVs, 'john' consistently paints the picture that it was his choice to murder and his alone, that he did it without mikoto's consciousness and anthetically to mikoto's character.

so. what's the problem? he's told us very straightforwardly across the board that what you've just described is what's going on. can we not believe the words of the prisoner themselves?

no. because 09, like all prisoners, has reason to lie to us to secure his survival. and 'john' in particular has every reason to convince us of a reality where he and he alone is the guilty party.

i very very strongly believe that 'john' is manipulating the audience to create the impression he does out of an ego-protective obligation. so i'm writing this post. and i hope i can convince you too.

main body 1: the purpose of alters (no, we are not functionally possessed):

let's start at the beginning. why did 'john' form? why would an alter with his characteristics form at all? this will help us understand why he does things, and what his role is within 09's life.

alters in DID typically form in response to new life roles and traumas, with the key note being that these aforementioned roles or traumas could not be handled by / identified with the alters that already exist. thus, a new dissociated state emerges to isolate that event or carry out that role. memory gaps may occur when the mere existence of that role / event is intolerable, or dissociation is otherwise high.

i have already written a long document on writing DID. check it out if you are unfamiliar with the basics.

we are aware of a few facts about mikoto's life, which can clue us in to what those roles and traumas may have led new alters to form.

first, he works an overwhelming job and never gets a days rest. it's implied he does not take good care of himself because of how all-consuming his job is, and that it takes him to a breaking point.

second, he commit mass murder.

third, he was suddenly brought to milgram, put under 24/7 surveillance, and told he was a killer, despite not remembering doing anything of the sort.

i frequently see people come to the conclusion that 'john' formed as a result of his stressful job, and functions to let mikoto 'blow off steam'. there's a few reasons i don't think this is the case.

an alter who forms as a result of a stressful job is more likely to handle and isolate the source of stress itself. for example, an automatic alter to handle work and nothing else, isolating that stress from the rest of their personality.

i really dont think an alter can form to 'blow off steam'. by definition, 'john' is a dissociative identity, disconnected from mikoto. whatever he does in terms of emotional processing is by design not going to impact mikoto.

in John Doe, 'john's' demeanour appears majorly aligned with fictionalised stereotypes of violent split personalities, appearing sadistic and animalistic. this alter presentation doesn't just 'happen' without reason, and i can't find a reason for 'john' to present himself like this if he truly formed to put himself first and 'blow off steam'.

so why did 'john' form?

main body 2: the purpose of 'john'

it's my opinion he formed as a result of (ie. after) the murders, as a way to contain and identify with those actions, because mikoto could not. i believe 'john' protects mikoto from 09's identity as a murderer and that intolerable experience in general, by allowing him to dissociate from it and forget it.

(note: it's not in my interest to pin the crime on any one alter, and i think it's weird to do so. you will notice i refer to 09's (as a whole) identity as a murderer, rather than blaming any one part, since it's an objective fact that 09, as a person, killed people. i'm opposed to holding any single alter responsible, but i am absolutely certain that if you are to argue that one is, it would not be 'john'.)

i believe that through distinguishing himself from mikoto through his accent, personality presentation, and sense of self, 'john' becomes the archetypal 'monster', which serves to reassure mikoto that 'john' is 'not him', and thus disassociates mikoto from the things 'john' takes ownership of: namely, 09's murderous actions and 09's identity as someone who has killed.

i also believe that following the transition into Milgram, 'john', as a protective alter is forced to develop beyond just psychologically protecting mikoto from the reality that 09 are a murderer. due to the voting system, it becomes important for 09's physical survival and wellbeing that 'john' can convince the audience that he is distinct from mikoto. he takes advantage of the fact that mikoto is the only alter on trial, and begins to spin sympathy for mikoto as a helpless victim, and negotiate on the terms of mikoto's innocence, by reiterating that it was 'john', and only 'john', who did it.

let's break down some 'john' truths:

he has a rough demeanour in contrast to mikoto's soft-spoken, and in John Doe, appears violent and sadistic

he distinguishes himself from and contrasts himself to mikoto by making a point to alternate personal pronouns

he claims to be the alter that commit the murders

he insists that this means mikoto should be found innocent, and that mikoto had nothing to do with it

when he realises that es may not agree with that view, he begins to plead, and then attempts to negotiate with es, being willing to sacrifice his existence as 'john' by promising to 'disappear'

he, well. this:

I'll take it all - bear it all (...) and I'll be rid of it. I (ore) ... was born in order to protect me. I (ore) would do whatever it takes to protect me (boku).

i find these last words 'john' says to es are the most telling, and really give us an insight into his motivations and what he considers his role and responsibility.

note that it's not to help mikoto vent stress. it's to take on the burden of everything that causes 09 distress. that being, for the most part, his guilt. he expresses a desire to isolate that trauma into himself as 'john' and vanish it, and maybe it's the DID in me, but all i'm hearing is the sound of a self-sacrificing protective alter who is desperately trying to keep his normal parts from having their illusion of a normal, trauma-free life shattered.

main body 3: where we can infer 'john' may be misleading us

ok, so i have this crazy theory i've convinced myself of that can strictly speaking be considered in line with the text using some mental gymnastics. but is there anything in the text that directly suggests that 'john' didn't do it?

yeah.

for starters, and perhaps a moot point, but mikoto is the alter on trial within Milgram. not only that, but 'john' is specifically not.

to be honest, this is what first got me theorising along this train of thought. if Milgram really 'doesn't make mistakes', and were presumably aware of 'john's' existence (in the sense that 'john' is considered unique, and not a prisoner), what makes mikoto the identity on trial?

like i said earlier, while i disagree with assigning culpability to individual alters, i do believe that if you were to assign culpability and only persecute and associate one alter for/with 09's crimes, it would not be 'john', because he did not exist as an alter at the time 09 commit those crimes. therefore, i believe Milgram is suggesting that of the alters, mikoto is the guilty party.

moreover, when you dissect 'john's' confession to es, there are certain patterns he displays that imply he is misleading us.

1. he is incredibly vague and emotionally disconnected when describing the event, lol.

his account of the murders appears fragmented and vague, and it's notable that he doesn't elaborate very much, or seem to feel much at all towards the event. contrast this to mikoto, who, when pressed on the topic of murder, starts to panic, scratch at his head, whimper and groan, and dissociate.

'john' either has a composure of steel, and truly does not feel remorse for his murder whatsoever, or, more likely, is that he only has a surface level connection to those memories, because his role only really extends towards identifying those memories and actions as 'his'.

it may be possible that mikoto is the alter with a unique repressed connection to the emotions and distress associated with the events, hence his violent reaction to es' pressing. it's also possible that the murders are blurry and hard to connect with for 09 in general, because trauma and dissociation can do that. but in both cases, i feel that 'john's' account of the murder don't really convince me that it was him that was conscious for the act, much less in a nonchalant and uncaring way, as he seems to put across.

2. he is first and foremost preoccupied with what his confession means for mikoto's guilt and protection

he gives up confessing and spinning his story after he's successfully convinced es that what he has said is the truth. he then immediately checks with the consequences of his actions.

this doesn't read as a confession to me, rather it looks like a blatant strategy. it's not about what 'john' did, it's about what 'john' can tell es to turn the tides in mikoto's favour.

when it becomes clear es may not be willing to see things his way, 'john' immediately loses his nonchalant composure. clearly, distinguishing himself as a uniquely guilty alter isn't working to secure his goals of mikoto's innocence, so he doubles down and makes emotional pleas.

again, note that it's not about 'john'. 'john' is content vilifying himself, and makes no attempt to humanise himself, or give explanation for 'his' actions. instead, he emphasises mikoto's innocence, and tries to evoke sympathy for him.

and in the end, 'john' strikes a deal with es; on the condition of mikoto's innocence, 'john' will 'disappear' himself. he cements his role as an alter that serves to carry 09's guilt so mikoto never has to face who he is and what he's done. the apparent subtext of 'proving one's use' reinforces this reading, i think. 'john' being able to 'disappear' himself and secure mikoto's guilt-free survival, is, honestly, the ideal situation as far as 09 believes.

the logistics of 'john' 'disappearing' himself and the fact that this, practically, would not make 09 guilt-free are a can of worms — this ... might not go how they expect ... — but 09's intentions are clear. 09 wants what 'john' isolates, carries, and represents (his guilt & identity as a killer) to vanish. whether or not he practically can 'vanish' anything (and what the consequences of his 'disappearing' are) remain to be seen (although, based on the voice clips, it seems that without 'john' around to contain 09's identity as a killer ... mikoto is not having a good time, psychologically).

in my opinion, 'john's' confession and the subsequent deterioration of the conversation are absolutely seeping in 'john's' ulterior motives to take all distress and discomfort from mikoto and protect him.

I'll take it all - bear it all (...) and I'll be rid of it. I (ore) ... was born in order to protect me. I (ore) would do whatever it takes to protect me (boku).

therefore, i would not take anything he claims about being autonomous, monstrous, and uniquely guilty at face value. 'john' has a goal, he has a purpose, and he will do anything to attain it.

main body 4: but maybe he's not... intentionally lying

all this said, i don't want the takeaway to be that 'john' is a manipulative liar. i also strongly believe that on a lot of levels, he, and 09 as a whole, believe what he is saying, because he has to.

like i said at the start, alters in DID encapsulate roles and traumas that could not be identified by the alters that already exist. if 'john' exists to isolate 09's identity as a killer, that means that 09 as a whole cannot tolerate the idea that mikoto could do such a thing.

i find 'john's' musing on the 'kind of person' that mikoto is very telling.

09 has a very firm idea of what a kind of gentle, sensitive, victimised person mikoto is, which makes the fact that he broke under the pressure and murdered people an even more intolerable reality. however, it's crucial for 09's health that they continue to believe in their goodness and maintain the illusion of a normal life for their everyday parts.

therefore, it's safest for 09's ego and psychological stability for 'john' to truly believe he is guilty and mikoto innocent. he also, after all, expresses incredibly high distress at the suggestion that mikoto may be punished or considered 'guilty', yet displays no such distress at his own condemnation. this reality where mikoto is innocent is clearly a source of stability for 09 across the board. so i do believe all of 09 believe this is the case, at least emotionally, and collectively work to sustain this reality for their psychological welfare.

i also believe 'john' isn't necessarily lying about believing in his role and personal guilt just because of how much self-hatred he betrays.

the aforementioned utter lack of self-respect (never standing up for himself) and subservience to mikoto's wellbeing (being willing to 'disappear' for mikoto's sake, claiming his all-encompassing purpose is to protect 09) implies a low self esteem. the end of Double as well as just how fucking miserable he sounds at towards end of Neoplasm betrays that he does feel immense guilt for 'his' actions, but only in relation to how the intolerable identity/experience he holds causes harm to mikoto.

'john', ultimately, is a character who represents a lot of self-hatred. he hates what he represents, he hates what he 'brings' to 09's identity, and he hates himself for existing and serving as a constant reminder of their identity as a killer that distresses mikoto and threatens their guilt-free manufactured reality so much.

(timeline translation document)

mikoto also targets 'john' to blame him for 'causing problems', to add layers to the self-hatred. 'john' counters emotionally, evoking his subservience and desire to protect, and defending his existence on the basis that he tried to help.

practically, i believe 'john' does help, by protecting mikoto from the reality that 'he' (09) killed people. but in 09's eyes, 'john's' 'helping' is 09's unexplainable and fragmented violent outburst, and thus 'john' has done a crap job at helping anything. this leads 'john' to not understand his value as an alter and hate himself, being ready to throw himself under the bus for mikoto's sake to 'save him' from the consequences of 09's guilt, and leads mikoto to lash out at 'john'.

i'll just say, from experience, throwing blame between alters that are associated with traumatic experiences is an unfortunate and common experience with DID. i even talk about it in my DID representation doc, as to illustrate why self-compassion and tolerance is vital to healing.

It’s very easy for us DID folk to simply wish that all of it would go away - to wish all of them would go away - because they must be the root of all our problems. They’re too needy, they’re too sad, they’re too angry, they hurt me, and I don’t understand them. I wish they would leave. I just want peace, we think. (...) Regardless of how alien and aggressive we feel, people with DID aren’t possessed, and our hurting and self-harming and destructive parts aren’t demons. They’re traumatised facets of a traumatised person. And no part of a traumatised person deserves to be repressed and vilified and shunned. (...) To me, a hopeful narrative and resolution is anything that can bring the parts together cohesively while loving their differences. (...) Navigating the decades of internal conflict and self-hatred and transforming it into tolerance and love. — Me, The Subjective Comprehensive Guide to [DID] Representation

... great job with the tolerance and love, guys.

conclusion / tl;dr:

i don't think 'john' as an alter appeared one day and decided to kill people to help mikoto cope with work stress.

i think 'john' is a very complicated part of mikoto, that identifies with the act and identity of killing, to keep it from mikoto and protect him. he presents himself as the 'kind of person' that would kill, and who is different to mikoto, because to 09, mikoto is not that 'kind of person'.

i think 09 use DID and the distinctions between alters to protect themselves psychologically, because that's why the disorder exists.

i also think it gives them an advantage in Milgram: by leaning into their DID and maladaptive self-ostracisation, they can attempt to convince the audience that 09's guilt is split between two alters: an innocent and a guilty.

using this, 'john', who hates himself as it is, promises to the audience that he will vanish himself on the condition mikoto is voted innocent, making himself useful one last time and finally 'saving' mikoto in the way he feels he has failed to thus far.

epilogue / reflection

so! i hope i make sense, and i really hope i haven't forgotten to cover anything glaring.

this is an all-encompassing way of reading 09 to me, and if it is canon like i believe, 09 may be a shockingly sensitive and accurate portrayal of DID. but to unearth this interpretation you need to dive into a lot of subtext and dodge a lot of intentional misdirection than leans into stigma and negative stereotypes of DID, so i sort of understand why a lot of people fall short, end up taking things at face value, or otherwise feel unqualified to dissect what's being written and claimed.

i hope my analysis and commentary helps, and please know that i am also always open to yap about these guys or DID representation in general if anyone would like. this is a very strong interest of mine, and i love picking fiction and DID representation apart, as well as demystifying the condition for people!

thank you for getting to the end of this, i know it's an essay and a half.

if you read this all the way through, even ignoring the text in images, this post comes out at over 3.5k words. this is longer than any college essay i've ever written. good grief. but it's over. thank you for sticking with me.

#kostik speaks #milgram #mikoto kayano #john milgram #milgram theory #milgram analysis #girl help how do i tag this #anyway please enjoy #i am on ssri withdrawl right now and i think i am hypomanic. i churned this out in two days alongside uni essays #but i am really happy with this and i hope i can convince others of how i read 09 #yay!#im so sorry for any typos when i finished this i CRASHED i dont think im capable of reading anymore #so im so sorry if this is genuinely incomprehensible. please tell me if anything needs fixing or clarifying. i want people to understand!#i also wrote this on laptop so im sorry if the formatting is unideal for mobile screens. me and my paragraphs...#zz. whatever. posting. go my true

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