#people at dc seem to love taking their frustrations out on jason from his character to his storylines

[mikakuna]

ok but i saw an ask on your feed talking about pretty boy jason and i agree hardcore! i'm such sucker for pretty boy jason and you can pry it from my cold dead hands. while i think he has some facial scarring, i don't think it would be any more than any of the other bats? he wears a helmet for fuck's sake, so. i always hate when people depict jason as ugly with heavy scarring on his face and the rest of the bats as flawless (as if scarring makes someone ugly).

like do people forget that dick and jason canonically look really similar?? and if dick is considered handsome, then logically jason must also be?? i love the idea of jason taking off his helmet and people being so thrown at how fucking pretty he is. ugh.

my theory (i may be thinking about it too much), but i feel like people depict jason as uglier or more scarred than the rest of the bats because they feel like his morals are a more grey area. there are studies that show people associate morality with physical appearance and because jason has questionable morals, people write him as less attractive than the other bats. the bats are righteous with good morals = beautiful people, whereas jason kills to protect others = must be ugly.

i want to say somehow classism links into all this as well, but i'm probably being too cynical and reading too much into it. although, the way jason is written as a stupid brute sometimes has me suspecting classism hm.

omg yes to everything

i'm all for jason having scars, i love it, but i also think he would have less facial scars than the other bats. jason most definitely looks extremely young. he's barely out of his teen years and you're telling me he looks like almost 40 year old bruce wayne? even him looking older than dick is a stretch. they have a good 6 years between them.

i don't care if jason's ugly or pretty but i mean it's just not possible to be unattractive if he was physically similar to dick in his robin days. coming back to life doesn't erase what jason used to look like-- he doesn't have a new face. if anything, his face would look even younger/"prettier" (since people equate beauty with next to no facial flaws) because of the lazarus pit removing any scarring he had from both his childhood and robin days (this is considered during the period he was back in gotham).

you're definitely right about the simply put "bad people=ugly" theory. it really just depends on the artist in charge but it's still questionable when jason is drawn as this harsh, extremely masculine brute in comparison to the other bats. i love his character design, i love that he's rlly muscular and scary! but i also like considering why he's drawn like this and why dick/bruce are the same but are given more grace.

[nyahsworld14]

Jason Todd as a character is one of my favorites not because of what his character is, but because of what his character could be, which is why it frustrates me so much that DC seems like they genuinely have no clue what to do with his character.

You wanna make him a villain, okay, that's cool. A character who has been failed by Batman so extremely and often seems to be the only character who came back from death being unable to truly recover is cool. Make him a little crazy, give him his moral code and an inability to exist in a situation around Batman where he's not making his problems everyone else's. That could be an interesting and deep look at what growing up as a child superhero and having violence be so pivotal to your developmental years might actually turn a person into. I would love to see him be the worst version of himself.

You want to make him a hero that's fine too. Have him keep his moral code and make that the fundamental reason why he and Bruce will never be able to reconcile. Show the ways in which he actually cares about helping people and reinforce and challenge that viewpoint while also allowing him to like Batman keep it and make it a part of character over time.

It feels like DC writers understand that Jason is a popular character, but for the life of them can't figure out why and it feels like he's never given to a writer who genuinely likes him in any form he takes wether that's villain or anti hero. This makes his character feel muddled and completely different depending on which story you're reading.

My personal favorite is if we keep him as an antihero with his own morals and keep him as far away from the batfamily as possible unless it's like once every few years, their ideologies clash again. I can see the fun in villain Jason, though, and he would stay my favorite character either way. It just makes me sad to to see how little consistency writers give him.

[gffa]

Dearest gffa, you are the only person I know whose been reading Batfamily comics. (Though I do read some of the fanfic haha). The destiel meme informed me that Bad Things just happened in the latest comics. Is there a primer to the latest drama? (Everyone seems upset). Are you ok?

Best wishes, your fandom neighbor on Star Wars Street

I assume this is about the Batman #148 leaks? I haven't seen a ton of drama (other than a couple of posts, including the Destiel meme notification that got me to go see what was happening) but if that's it, it's kind of funny, because okay. As far as I've seen (the issue isn't even out yet, so I can't read it until tomorrow, I'm only going on the leaked panels I've seen) what happens in the issue is that Failsafe-- okay, let me back up. In the current Batman run (written by Chip Zdarsky), awhile back Bruce created a super powerful robot that was meant to be activated in the case of him going rogue so that it could take him down, and it's very coldly logical, based on his patterns, so it knows him extremely well and is hard to beat. It's powerful enough that it apparently took out the Justice League awhile back (I haven't read that arc yet, so take that with a grain of salt), which means now that Failsafe has gone rogue in the current Batman series that Zdarsky's writing, Bruce is having a hell of a time fighting it, especially with his "backup personality" Zur-En-Arrh (Bruce is a paranoid shit and I love him the most) is also running amok in his head and he's fighting back against that. Back up further--in late 2023, there was an event called "Gotham War" that was basically, "Bruce has been through a lot of shit lately, so he was out of commission for several months, in that time Selina stepped up in Gotham and started training crooks to be cat burglars instead of rogues' goons, Bruce woke up, thought this was bullshit, despite that crime was down, and they basically had a turf war while Bruce was losing his goddamned mind because of what he'd been through and because Zur-En-Arrh was literally ratting the bars of the cage of his mind, and part of the fallout being that Bruce dosed Jason with a gas that basically made his adrenaline go wild any time he would do anything dangerous, so that he could no longer be in this life of crime or vigilantism, because Jason had killed a lot of people, but Bruce couldn't bear to send him to jail, so this was the only way he could live with taking Jason out of the life they lived". Gotham War was extremely controversial--I had fun with it, because it was BONKERS and I fuckin' love bonkers stuff in the "punching people in the face solves crime" genre, but a lot of people were really angry about how Jason was treated in the arc. Zdarsky co-wrote Gotham War, so this is a continuation of a lot of people's frustration and anger towards how Jason has been treated by DC especially by this author.

There's also a lot of lingering frustration and resentment in fandom because Jason is not always written well or frequently. He doesn't have his own solo book these days, half of what's written about him is written by authors with VASTLY different takes from the other half of the writers out there, and there's a lot of fanon that goes around with Jason's sub-section of fandom where I think it furthers the divide because the fic that's written about Jason delves deep into his character in specific ways that the canon doesn't match and I think it can set expectations for some fans that are just not matched by DC themselves, either because they see Jason differently or because Jason just doesn't have a lot of fans at the company itself, I couldn't say for sure. So, now comes Batman #148 leaks (it's not actually out until tomorrow), where Failsafe kills Jason and Bruce has a dramatic reaction to it, and a lot of people are furious that DC would kill Jason at all, much less with such little fanfare, after how little focus he's gotten over the last several years. The thing is, though, that Jason doesn't stay dead, he's alive again by the end of the issue (I've seen panels from later in the issue) and I'm not sure how many people are reacting just to seeing the posts flying around fandom versus how many people have actually seen the whole context. Because context is slowly rolling out, but people generally aren't soothed by that, given the lead-up to this moment. Basically, years of Jason not getting much focus in the comics + the events of Gotham War have led to a powderkeg of a situation and the contextless leaks (ie, without the panel where Jason's alive again) took a match to the whole thing. And that's what's going on, as far as I know! I personally am having a great time because I was extremely skeptical that they would actually kill Jason without any fanfare and also I like Jason as a hot mess with crunchy relationships with people and that he's done bad things and had bad things done to him/been a victim as well, so all this messy drama in the story has me living for it. (This would have been a very different situation if I'd thought Jason was really dead, but I didn't, so I'm doing fine right now. Also, my Blorbo is Dick Grayson, so I've already been through this wringer and I'm still mad at DiDio for it, so it's Jason-Blorbo's time now.)

[necrotic-nephilim]

re: your thoughts on new52 version of jayroy because roy harper was done so dirty that I can’t stand that ship, but you can make it good and I appreciate it

I have a vague idea for a jayroy/outlaws rewrite that leans into roy’s pre52 characterization because honestly I think they could have a decent friendship, like you said Roy isn’t a stranger to working with people he morally disagrees with. Roy also has a habit of taking people under his wing when he think they need support (I miss grant) and I think that if he saw Jason at his worst, angry, violent and hurting, then he’d still try and help him even if he wasn’t his best friend’s little brother.

I think that a romantic relationship between them would be a little harder to justify when you keep to Roy’s original character, he knows a lot about trying to fix people with love and just how much it doesn’t work. sleeping together casually is one thing but dating is another, and rule number 2 for recovering addicts is don’t get into a new relationship, is it the same for recovering villains? He can’t be that person who takes advantage of someone at their lowest Or be a conscience for someone, talking them down from bad decisions. I imagine that Roy sets pretty firm boundaries early on, and Jason doesn’t push him on this since it’s supposedly just causal.

The best way to shake things up between the two of them is to add a third person to the mix lmao, things would never progress past the fuckbuddies stage without some drama. You’ve gotta add Dick or Tim or Helena or Donna or Bruce for some spice

first of all, for you to just passingly mention the idea of HelenaJayRoy without any further thoughts how DARE you anon that was the most enlightened thing you could've said- /lh

BUT YES I AGREE. i think Outlaws *could* have worked, which is the most frustrating thing about it. i don't think Kori was the right pick, simply bc *why was she there* but i do agree, you *could've* made Roy work. there's this belief in Outlaws that somehow Jason is the one saving and helping Roy get back on his feet and Roy is leaning on Jason. but for me to make it work, it'd *have* to be other way around. like you said, with Roy being the one trying to take Jason under his wing and set him on the right path.

bc when it comes to superhero teams, a lot of times you can shove just about anyone together under the right justification or circumstances. so Jason and Roy working together could *easily* be pulled off, i just think they needed another more grounded, street-level vigilante/anti-hero to balance them out instead of someone like Kori who either feels like the deus ex machina solving everything *or* incredibly nerfed so the plot doesn't just revolve her fixing things instantly. really a lot of picks could've worked, but i *love* the idea of Helena. just bc i'd give anything for DC to give us a proper comic team-up between Helena and Jason. on a surface they *seem* like they should work well- lethal justice, protector of the marginalized, driven by vengeance. but i could see them heavily clashing and arguing over schematics and each other's methodologies. so putting someone who doesn't believe in murder at all like Roy in the middle is fun. especially with Roy finally having some semblance of adult stability after his addiction and having a child, he'd naturally fall into the role of being the one in charge, trying to guide the others. he has a habit of wanting to help others get their lives back on track bc well, he knows how it feels to be at rock bottom and feel like everyone gave up on you. there's definitely levels where Roy could sympathize with Jason, and possibly even agree with him. Roy's storyline with addiction existed to be meta-commentary on how parents fail their children going through addiction by not providing communal support, so a lot of Jason's feelings on how he was failed by Bruce (and adult heroes fail their sidekicks as a whole) can be reflected in Roy's experiences. Jason's beliefs on how sidekicks shouldn't exist and superheroes don't do enough is something Roy could possibly even agree with. i would've *loved* to see an Outlaws run acknowledging that Roy is far more emotionally mature than Jason and trying to help Jason out as Jason doesn't want it.

and like the said, that makes the relationship more fun. bc even if feelings develop, Roy's not going to jump on them for fear of taking advantage of Jason and potentially backsliding Jason's progress they've made inch by inch. it makes their friendship and relationship far more slow and careful. and adding Helena, imo, is a lot of fun. bc while she agrees with Jason's lethality, she'd have a bit more emotional stability going into the team. this is a woman who has a full time day job as a teacher and has worked on the Birds of Prey. while she doesn't have the teenage sidekick experience, she certainly has a level of "real world" experience, and a closeness to growing up around crime and tragedy. while Helena also has her emotional misgivings, they're very different from Jason's. a lot of Helena's character is driven by feeling trapped as a little girl, paralyzed by fear, witnessing a tragedy she can't stop. and Huntress is her way to try and break free of that. she's running from her trauma in a way, where as Jason is running *at* it. that's the difference. Jason wants to boldly face his trauma in bloody ways and force everyone else to face it too, even if it means that's all he'll be, bc that's all he sees himself as anyway. Helena wants to escape it and prove she's bigger than it. she doesn't want it to be her defining trait. sure she got her vengeance, but she tried to move on from it and make her identity something more.

so i think she could provide a level of stability to the relationship in that she'd try to force Jason to move on from the worst of his feelings. his trauma is always going to follow him a little, but he can't keep letting it define him. especially when they're all trying to work together on a team. it makes the three of them getting together a lot of fun bc there's balance in all directions. Roy cares about them both and has getting very comfortable with working with them, and they all have clear, unspoken feelings. i think it's fun if Roy is trying so hard not to take advantage of Jason while Jason is pissed that Roy thinks Jason isn't in the mindspace to make his own decisions about what he wants. i think he'd make a move on Helena just to prove his point and get Roy to finally cave and join in. Roy knows Helena won't take Jason's shit and won't let Jason go off the deep end just bc he's upset, she's very no-nonsense about it all to contrast Roy's more gentle attempts to reasoning.

anyway now i have a new rarepair idea ty anon i'm in love with you. i usually say i don't ship Helena/Jason just bc i think they're too intense for each other, but with Roy in the mix there's a really good balance that makes it work *so* well. i'm going to be thinking about this forever.

[lazydoodlesandfanfic]

Hanging Criminals Pt 2 (Jason Todd X Brother!Reader) *PLATONIC

Characters: Jason Todd X Male!Reader

Universe: DC, Batman

Warnings: Mention of death and killing

Pt 1

Request: Hey are u willing to do a part 2 of hanging crimenals with the bat fam maybe jason trying too help him or some more angst if u want if not i understand thank u for your works anyway hard too find people who write for male readers on here nowadays

It had been a month since your adoptive father had pulled you from doing patrol and shoved you into intense therapy about your past before your adoption in the Wayne family. Progress was slow, mostly because you didn’t want to be there, but Bruce had managed to find either the most patient or the most persistent therapist in the field, because you still went, and on the days you didn’t want to go in, the therapist came to you. Either that, or Jason would literally drag you there.

You hadn’t expected Jason to be the one most involved in your so called ‘recovery’ since he understood your mindset the best. He didn’t follow the ‘no kill’ rule Bruce had, and the pair didn’t get along on most of the time, but with Bruce pulling you out of patrol, locking away your weapons and suit, literally threatening to break your leg to stop you if you still persisted, the second oldest seemed to realise something. Bruce was scared. He was genuinely terrified about what was happening with you, and was trying his goddamn hardest to stop this now rather than later, and trying to stop you on this destructive path… a little bit like how he had done with Jason when he was younger, but this time taking a lot more action. 

He hated to admit it, but he saw the old man’s point of view, and he understood and agreed. Something really had to change, and instead of sitting idly like how he and the others had done previously when Bruce found out you’d hung a criminal again, he was gonna step up, be involved, and snuff this flame that was getting out of hand. 

“Y/N, are you ready?” Jason called, knocking on your bedroom door, the keys to one of the cars in his hand, his phone in the other, checking his messages, especially the one that Alfred had sent him with the time you had to be at your session, and the time he recommended he set off with you to ensure you got there in time. Jason chose to bother you to be ready 10 minutes before that set off time since he knew from experience that he would probably have to push and poke at least to get you to go. 

Today seemed to be no different. After a few second with no response, Jason hit his fist against the door, and waited a few more seconds, before he tried the door, finding it open and he opened the door, swinging it open. He leant on the doorframe, looking inside, finding you sat on the edge of your bed upright, head slightly tilted down, mostly ignoring the presence of your brother in the doorway. The look in your eye was… hard to read. There was an anger behind them, but accompanied by your slumped shoulders either showed frustration or defeat. He had understood your feelings. He knew you had heard the news. 

“He’s gonna kill someone.” You finally spoke up. The person in question was an elusive man you had been practically stalking for weeks prior to Bruce effectively grounding you, and when Bruce had put the others onto your cases, you had tried to get Jason on that specific case, but when Bruce saw that he instead took it upon himself. Surprise surprise, he caught the man in the process of searching for a victim. Bruce dropped him off with the police, but since he had a brother who was high up in law enforcement, he got out scott free last afternoon, all charges dropped. “He’s gonna kill who knows how many people before people realise what he’s doing, and they’re not gonna believe it’s him… so many innocent lives ruined, so many families without answers of who took aware their loved ones, all because no one ultimately stopped him. All because Bruce is too much of a coward.” You spat. 

“...I know Y/N. I’m pissed off too. Guess you heard me screaming at him last night about it?” Jason asked, getting a small hum in response. “We’ll figure it out. I’ll keep an eye on him for you off the record, and if I see anything, I’ll put a stop to it.” Jason promised you.

“If you see anything. It is completely possible that he’s already acted. You can’t watch him all the time.” You brushed off. “I’m not going to therapy today.”

“You have to, if you want to do patrols again.” 

“You and I both know Bruce has no intentions of letting me patrol again.”

“And I think he’s an idiot for it. He should know by now that fully revoking you from doing a job he himself trained you to do will only make you act out and go against him. I’ve talked to the others about it, and they agree. We’re gonna hound the old man to let you patrol but with one of us to get started again, and if he still says no, I’ve pulled a few strings to get you out of the city for a while,you just have to promise to lay low until we convince him to calm down and actually work with you. But you have to work with us as well.” 

You looked up at your brother finally, not saying anything at first, thinking about his offer to you, but ultimately knowing that what he and your other siblings were offering was much better than what your dad was, and that it was far more fair, and far less of a sacrifice for you. “Alright. I’ll behave.”

“Good. Now come on.” Jason pointed his head out of the door, and with far less resistance, you stood and followed him out.

Hope you like it! If you have any questions, please send them in! 

*Not my gif

TAGS:  @freyathehuntress   @theplacewhererobindied  @rebellionofthecattle  @hello-love-youre-pretty @werosemagic  @courtneychicken​  @graysonmalfoy​ @bellero​ @originalpottervengerlock​ @supernatural-pan​ @esoltis280​ @lady-of-lies​ @lenaswritingandstuff @macbetheliza @mandywholock1980​ @cdwmtjb8​ @caswinchester2000​ @determinedpines​ @huntheimpossible @automaticbakeryfreakshoe

[scandalsavagefanfic]

Batman: Urban Legends, Cheer

I’ve talked a little bit about why Batman: Urban Legends is a bad story already, but I just saw a post talking about this panel and how well Bruce has been written in this story. And while the post didn’t really say anything about Jason, OP’s comments in the notes talked about how this seemed to be a direct response to people trashing Bruce for beating on the poor and disenfranchised, talking about how he’s finally “in character”, how he has a lighter touch and tends to think things through and how the story is teaching Jason a lesson about his “tendency” to brute his way through things without thinking about them, and how Jason wasn’t OOC.

My first post about UL touches on why that last bit is nonsense, but the stuff about Bruce reminded me of something else in UL that really, really bothered me. 

It’s the above panel and these, not just in the context that this story rewrites Jason as ALWAYS having been prone to violence and willing to wail on the weak, but also in the sense that Bruce, of all people, is the one chosen to teach this lesson to Jason. 

[that sentence ends in the next panel with “...stealing the Batmobile’s tires?”]

It’s just one more way DC keeps chipping away at what makes Jason (the Robin raised in poverty, the one who grew up with a first-hand insight into the way Gotham’s systemic corruption and crimes do the most harm to the poorest and least powerful people, and the only one to be personally affected by addiction) special and interesting. It’s just the most recent way they’ve bastardized his roots to villainize him (the poor homeless kid who was brutally murdered) so that Bruce (the billionaire) looks better, so that Bruce is absolved of all his responsibility in how Jason came to be the Red Hood.

Because in actuality, Jason taught Bruce that criminals can change.

Bruce didn’t listen. He stalked Penguin and when he found him, Bruce had to eat his words.

Penguin had actually tried to change. Bruce realized his mistake and tried to defend him after he was arrested, but the damage was done.

By the way, this is from when Penguin was just a jewel thief. Let that sink in for a sec. Go back up to the panel from Urban Legends with Batman and Robin in the alley and reread it.

And this, this story with the Penguin, is how it should be. Not that crap from UL. 

I don’t know why people have to keep saying this but Jason isn’t stupid. He’s incredibly smart and his actions, even his violence, are rooted in empathy and indignation on behalf of the innocent who are harmed, not rage. The above panels in UL are basically like saying that Cassandra Cain has suddenly changed her mind that everyone can be saved and decided to join Jason in killing super villains. This is the core of the character we’re talking about. It’s not the dumb little details like whether he likes coffee or eats cereal or whatever. It’s the heart of the character. It’d be like taking the circus out of Dick’s story, or the love of Robin from Tim’s, or making someone other than Talia Damian’s mother. 

Jason is very aware that petty crime is often motivated by desperation. He literally lived that life.��That’s why he’s never targeted people like that the way this book shows him to.

Even when he returned, he was never an indiscriminate killer and he was never violent for the sake of it. He didn’t beat the shit out of addicts because he was an impatient little bitch. He was methodical and calculative and he only killed people who preyed on the weak, the innocent, and the defenseless. 

Like the mob’s drug lieutenants who dealt to kids:

Like these bastards, who were deep in denial and broke Jason’s golden rule, no dealing to children. 

Because drug dealers purposefully target kids, relying on addiction to make them repeat customers for life.

Rapists and the scum who prey on people at their most vulnerable:

And nazis.

The fact is, Jason certainly has his faults, but he would never, ever, do this to an addict:

Writing him like he would is out of character. Drastically. 

Jason doesn’t go off half-cocked. He doesn’t jump in blind. These aren’t lessons he needs to learn in anything except this story which specifically wrote him as idiotic and mean as possible to squeeze him into the box the writer needed him to fit into.

Jason has never been written quite this bad before, but even if you take the few random instances over the last 15 years, where he’s been written as meaner and dumber than usual as his core character, how can you stand there and say that Bruce’s style is a calmer, more rational approach and say how he’s been written for the last 30 years is ooc????

For the kind of story Batman: Urban Legends seems to be telling, Bruce is literally the last character this message should be funneled through. Bruce is a billionaire (or... multi-millionaire, for now in the main continuity but who knows what’s canon for this). It’s so fucking tone-deaf to keep writing this kind of interaction between Bruce and Jason. 

Do I agree that Bruce should be written as more understanding and empathetic and less vicious than he sometimes is since the 80′s, by the way, this isn’t new? Absolutely.

Do I think this was a good example of that or a reasonable template going forward? Absolutely not. 

DC needs to stop sacrificing what makes Jason Todd interesting, what makes the character an excellent tool to tell meaningful, topical stories, for today’s audiences, just to prop up Bruce. 

For starters, Bruce doesn’t need that?

Their roles in this story don’t have to be swapped. There are ways to write this kind of stuff that doesn’t fuck up a character. See the above example with Penguin. And that’s from the fucking 80′s. How are Reagan-era comics telling stories about poverty, addiction, and reformed criminals with more nuance and tact and consideration than something in 2021????

I just think it’s fucking sad.

And extremely frustrating. 

[scorpionyx9621]

Do you think Jason Todd fandom is kinda toxic? Because it seems like NO MATTER what DC do, there'll always be complains. Forget the bad adaptation like Titans. Even Judd Winick cannot escape the criticism with how he potrayed Robin!Jason. They just never satisfied.

SORRY, IT TOOK ME SO LONG TO RESPOND TO THIS. I just moved from Washington D.C. to Seattle, which, for my non-American friends, that's 4442km away. And I DROVE THERE ALL BY MYSELF. And now I'm trying to find new work in a new city and trying to stay mentally healthy and positive. Life is exciting but hard and scary.

*sighs*

As someone who was a fandom elder with V*ltr*n. I've seen some of the worst when it comes to fandom behavior. I'm talking people baking food with shaving razors and trying to give them to the showrunners. I'm talking leaking major plot details and refusing to take it down unless they make their ship canon (I am looking at you, Kl*nce stans) For the most part, DC Comics has had a decades-long reputation of treating their fans like trash and not caring what they think so from what I've seen, we all just grumble and complain in our corners of the internet about how we don't like how X comic portrays Jason Todd.

The challenge with Jason Todd is that he's your clinical anti-hero, the batfamily's Draco in Leather Pants, he's a jerkass woobie, and on top of all of that, he's a Tumblr sexyman. It's a perfect storm for a very fun but frustrating character to be a fan of. It doesn't help that every writer decides to re-invent the wheel every time Jason comes up so his canon lore is confusing at best and inconsistent as a standard.

I guess starting with a general brief on who Jason is and what is uniform about him with every instance he's appeared in comics/media.

Grew up in a poor family in Gotham with a dad who was a petty-mid-level criminal, and a mother who dies of a drug overdose.

Survives on the street on his own by committing petty crimes and potentially even engaging in sexual acts to keep himself alive.

Is cornered by Batman and taken in after Dick Grayson quits/is fired

Becomes the second Robin, but is known for being the harsher, more brutal Robin.

Is killed by Joker after being tortured, but somehow comes back to life and regains senses through the Lazarus Pit

Resolves himself to be better than Batman by basically being Batman but kills people.

Where there has been a lot of conflict in the fandom is the fact that Jason Todd is not a character that is written consistently. DC Comics loves to go with the narrative that Jason was "bad from the start" and was the "bad robin" when, yes, he has trouble controlling his anger, but he also still is just as invested in seeing the best of Gotham City and trying to be a positive change for the world as any other DC Comics hero.

Where I get frustrated with the fandom is its ability to knit-pick every detail of a comic they don't like while completely disregarding everything that makes the comics great and worth it to read. My example being Urban Legends. To which most people had pretty mixed reactions to. I was critical of the comic at first but as it went along I ended up really liking it. I have a feeling DC Comics went to Chip Zdarsky and told him he had 6 issues to bring Jason back into the Bat Family, and honestly he didn't do a bad job. Did it feel rushed? Absolutely. I wish there was more development of Jason and Bruce's characters and their dynamic as a whole. However, where I see a lot of people being angry and upset with Urban Legends is that they feel Zdarsky needlessly wrote Jason as an incompetent fool who needs Bruce to save him.

Whether or not that was the intention of Zdarsky is up to debate. However, and this may be controversial, but I don't think he wrote Jason Todd out of character at all. For as fearsome, intimidating, and awesome as Red Hood is. Jason is a character who is absolutely driven by his emotions. Why do you think he donned the role of Red Hood? As a response to his anger towards The Joker for killing him, and towards Bruce for not taking action against The Joker and for seemingly replacing him so quickly after he died. Jason didn't care about being the murderous Robin Hood or for being the bloody hammer of justice against N*zi's and P*d*ph*les. He only cared originally about making The Joker and Bruce pay. It wasn't until he trained under the best assassins in the world and realized most of them were horrific criminals who trafficked children and were p*dos that Talia began to realize that the teachers that she sent Jason to train under started dying horrific and painful deaths.

The entire story of the Cheer story in Batman Urban Legends was started because it finally forced some consequences upon Jason. Tyler, aka Blue Hood's father was a drug dealer who gave his supply to his wife and kids. And when Tyler's father admitted he gave the drugs to Tyler, it immediately made him fall within the self-imposed philosophical kill-list of Jason Todd. And Jason, well, he proceeds to kill Tyler's father. When this happens, Jason is in shock. Tyler's dad fit the bill to easily and justifiably be killed by Jason. We've never seen Jason having to deal with the consequences of being a murderous vigilante on a micro-level. When Jason realizes what he's done in that he's murdered Tyler's dad, he's shocked. He tells Babs the truth. He does a rational thing because he's in shock. He doesn't know what to do, he never has had to face the consequences of his actions as Red Hood and now the gravity of befriending a child as a vigilante hero who kills people just set in when he killed the father of the same child he was just introduced to.

(Oh here's a little aside because it had to be said, Jason would not have been a good father or a good mentor to Tyler and absolutely should not have been his new Robin. Jason is a man who is in his early 20's (not saying men in their early 20's can't be good fathers at all) who is a brutal serial killer using the guise of a vigilante anti-hero to let him escape most of the law. the complications of having the man who murdered your father adopt you and make you his sidekick are way too numerous for me to explain in a long-winded already heavy Tumblr essay post. There's a reason why we don't advocate for a story where Joe Chill adopted Bruce Wayne or one where Tony Zucco took in Dick Grayson.)

The next biggest argument is that they feel that Jason is giving up his guns as a means to just be invited back into the Bat-Family. To which I will tell anyone who has that argument to go actually read Urban Legends. Already have and still have that argument? Please re-read it. Don't want to? That's okay, I will paste the images from the comic where Jason specifically says that he doesn't want to give up his weapons for Bruce and his real reasoning down below since the comic isn't exactly readily accessible.

Jason gave up the guns because he felt the gravity of what he had done and knows how it'll effect Tyler. Thankfully his mom is alive and in recovery. But Tyler doesn't have a father anymore. And Jason killed Tyler's father. It may have been in accordance to Jason's philosophy, but it was a case where it blurred the lines. Jason Todd isn't a black and white character, just very dark gray. He doesn't kill aimlessly like the Joker. If you are on Jason's list you probably have done something pretty horrific, and also just in general, being in his way or being a threat to him. Mind you, in early days of Red Hood and the Outlaws (Image below) Jason almost killed 10 innocent civilians in a town in Colorado all because they saw him kill a monster. That being said, Jason isn't aimless in his kills.

(Also can we just take a moment to appreciate Kenneth Rocafort's art? DC Comics said we need to rehabilitate Jason Todd's image and Kenneth Rocafort said hold my beer: It's so SO GOOD)

That being said, the key emphasis in the story of Cheer asides from trying to introduce Jason Todd back into the Bat Family and give an actual purpose for him being there, other than him just kind of being there ala Bowser every time he shows up for Go Kart racing, Tennis, Golf, Soccer, and the Olympic games when Mario invites him, is that Jason and Bruce ultimately both want the same thing. Jason wants to be welcomed back into the family and to be loved and appreciated. Bruce want's Jason back as his son and wants to love and protect Jason. Both of these visions are shown in the last chapter of Cheer while under the effect of the Cheer Gas. It's ultimately this love and appreciation they both have for each other that helps them overcome their challenge and win.

Jason Todd is a character who, just like Bruce, has been through so much pain and so much hate in his life. The two are meant to parallel each other. While Bruce chose to see the best in everyone, giving every rogue in his gallery the option to be helped and give them a second chance, hence why he never kills, Jason has a similar view on wanting to protect the public, but he understands that some crimes are so heinous they cannot be forgiven, or that some habitual criminals are due to stay habitual criminals, and need to be put down. But at the end of the day, the two of them both try to protect people in their own ways.

I am aware that through the writings of various DC Comics authors such as Scott Lobdell and Judd Winick, the two have had a very tumultuous relationship. And rightfully so, I am by no means saying that Scott Lobdell writing an arc where Bruce literally beats Jason to within an inch of his life in Red Hood and the Outlaws, nor Judd Winick's interpretation of Under the Red Hood where Bruce throws the Batarang at Jason's neck, slicing his throat and leaving him ambiguously for dead at the end of the comic is appropriate considering DC Comics seems to be trying everything they can to integrate Jason back into the family. That being said, a lot of these writings have shaped the narrative of Jason and Bruce's relationship and have an integral effect on the way the fandom views the two. It doesn't help that Zdarsky acknowledged Lobdell's life-beating of Jason by Bruce at the very end of Cheer by having Bruce give Jason his old outfit back as a means of mending the fence between the two of them. That does complicate a lot of things in terms of how they are viewed by the fandom and helps to cause an even greater divide between the two.

Regardless, I want to emphasize the fact that Jason Todd is a part of the family of his own accord. Yes, he's quite snarky and deadpan in almost every encounter. However, Jason is absolutely a part of the family and has been for a while of his own will. There's a great moment in Detective Comics that emphasizes this. Jason cares about his family because it is his found family. Yes, they may be warry about him and use him as a punching back and/or heckle him. At the end of the day, we're debating the family dynamics of a fictional playboy billionaire vigilante whose kleptomania took the form of adopting troubled children and turning them into vigilante heroes. Jason Todd wants a family that will love and support him. This is a key definition of his character at its most basic. This was proven during the events of Cheer and is being reenforced by DC Comics every time they get the opportunity to do so.

Now, none of this is to say that I hate Judd Winick. I do not, I don't like the fact that in all of his writings of Jason, he just writes him as a dangerous psychopath, and Winick himself admits to seeing Jason as nothing much more than a psychopath. Yet Winick is the one who the majority of the fandom clings to as the one true good writer of Jason Todd because 'Jason was competent, dangerous, smart' Listen, friends, Jason is all of that and I will never deny it. However, what I love about Jason isn't that he's dangerously smart of that writers either write him as angsty angry Tumblr sexyman bait or that they write him as an infantile man child with a gun. There's a large contention of this fandom that has an obsession with Jason Todd being this vigilante gunman who is hot and sexy and while I definitely get the appeal. It is very creepy and downright disturbing that all of you hyperfixate on his use of guns and ability to be a murderer. It is creepy and I'm not necessarily here for it.

What I love about Jason Todd is that despite all of the pain, all of the heartache, all of the betrayal, and bullying, and death, and anguish. Jason Todd is one of the most loving and supportive characters in all of DC Comics. Jason has been through so much in his life, but he still chooses to love. He still chooses to see the bright side in people. Yes, he takes a utilitarian approach and chooses to kill certain villains, but at the end of the day he wants to see a better world, and he wants to be loved. It takes so much courage and so much heart to learn to love again after one has been abused or traumatized. I would not blame Jason at all if he said fuck it and just went full solo and vigilante evil. He has every right to, but he still chooses to be with the Bat Family of his own accord. That's something that I see a lot of in myself. I have been through a lot of trauma and yet I try to be a better person myself in any way that I can. It is extremely admirable of Jason to allow love back into his heart when he really doesn't need to. He kills and he protects because he has this love of society. It may have been shaped by anger and hatred, but Jason has found his place amongst people who love him and value him. I think Ducra, from Red Hood and the Outlaws put it best in the image given below.

To end this tangent, I love Jason Todd and all of his sexy dangerousness, but it's far more than that. As much as Jason may be dangerous and snarky, he loves his family without a shadow of a doubt. I look up to Jason Todd because despite all of his pain and all of his trauma, he still choses to love. Jason Todd is a character who is someone I love because despite all of his flaws and having a very toxic fandom, he still serves as a character filled with so much heart and so much passion. I wish more writers would understand that. But for now I will live with what I have. Even though the fandom may be vocal about it's hatred for his characterization, I choose to love Jason regardless because he is a character who chooses love and acceptance regardless of his pain. Jason Todd is by no means a good person in any sense of the word. He has easily killed upwards of 100 people by now. He is a character who is flawed and complex but ultimately is one who powers forwards and finds love and heart in a place from so much pain and anguish. That is what I love about Jason Todd. After all, to quote a famous undead robot superhero, "What is grief, if not love persevering?" Jason Todd chooses to love despite all of the trauma and pain and grief. Yes, he is hardened in his exterior, but inside there is a man with a lot of love to give and someone who deserves the world in my eyes.

[dilfhaljordan]

y’know, i think i might’ve realized why so many people gravitate towards batfam instead of flashfam

to the extent of my knowledge, most of the flashfam are related to each other either biologically or by marrying (to clarify i’m talking specifically abt pre52 flashfam rn since i haven’t actually read any of the new52 yet). you have:

barry allen, the flash

iris west, barry’s wide

wally west, iris’ nephew

linda park, wally’s wife

don and dawn allen, iris and barry’s children in the 30th century

jenni ognats, the daughter of don and jeven ognats

bart, the son of dawn and meloni thawne, making him jenni’s cousin and wally’s first cousin once removed (i think so anyways i’m not sure)

owen mercer, bart’s half-brother

thaddeus thawne II, bart’s clone and technically his twin/brother

jai and irey west, linda and wally’s kids

pretty much the only ones who aren’t biologically related in any sense are jay and joan garrick, who imo act like barry’s parents, and also temporarily had bart in their care for a while

of course, this isn’t including people like jesse chambers, max crandall, johnny chambers, etc. bc i’m mostly going through the family tree, however they are very close friends/allies who are generally considered as part of the flashfam

ANYWAYS, like i said, that list of people? they’re all biologically connected in some way, or in linda + joan + iris’s cases, they married in.

now let’s look at the batfam, which is made up almost entirely of non-biologically related people (once again, not taking into account close friends such as babs and steph):

alfred pennyworth, the wayne’s butler and the man who raised bruce (along with leslie thompkins)

bruce wayne, batman

dick grayson, bruce’s first son

jason todd, bruce’s second son

tim drake, the third son

cassandra cain, bruce’s one and only daughter

damian wayne, son of bruce and talia al ghul, and the only member with any sort of blood relation to bruce

talia al ghul, who isn’t generally considered a part of the batfam (thanks to morrison ruining her entire character smh) but was once married to bruce

this list also doesn’t take into account close friends/allies like stephanie brown, barbara gordon, selina kyle, etc. bc none of them are official members of the family, though they are counted as family by most people (including me). again, these are the official members of the batfam

it’s pretty common knowledge that the batfam is the most popular family in the entire dc franchise. the fanworks alone go to show that, and dc isn’t much better when it comes to that. it can be hard to figure out why, since the batfam can be so messed up sometimes, especially compared to the flashfam, which imo is one of the most openly loving and caring families in dc. despite that, the flashfam fandom is like a single speck of dust compared to the batfam fandom, which can honestly be really frustrating bc they deserve more recognition, but i digress

anyways, the main difference between these two families?

blood relations.

okay, let me explain. here’s the thing—the batfam fandom is mostly made up of people that are queer, neurodivergent, mentally ill, or maybe just don’t have that great of a home life. this post explains it much better than i ever could, but the general gist is that these people love the concept of found family since they usually don’t have an amazing relationship or are rejected by their blood family, and the batfam is built on found family. like i said, the only people related by blood are bruce and damian—everyone else is a) adopted or b) close enough to the family that they’re considered part of it (think steph, babs, alfred, etc.)

now, i’m pretty sure that the batfam is the only family that’s pretty much completely found family (with the exception of lanternfam, but hal, kyle, jess, simon etc. don’t fall into archetypal roles like the dad, the brother, the uncle, etc. so i feel like that plays a big role in why the lanternfam isn’t nearly as popular + the fact that most people just don’t really seem to care about them). most of dc’s other families are blood related—and this includes flashfam, which i think it actually the family that has the most blood-related members in it.

here’s the thing—some of the members of the flashfam absolutely do play at least a little bit into found family. take bart, for example—he travelled back in time from the future. iris couldn’t take care of him bc she couldn’t spoil future events for the others (i think so anyways i’m not too sure), wally was nowhere prepared to mentor a kid who was so much like him, so max was the one to take him in, and they ended up having an amazing father-son relationship, and they weren’t related to each other, either.

still, despite definitely having more healthy relationships than the batfam, most of the flashfam is blood-related, which is probably a huge part of why people gravitate towards the batfam—the idea of having a found family that, while dysfunctional and messy, is a family that loves each other, is really appealing towards people who are queer/neurodivergent/etc. not only that, a lot of the batfam members are unintentionally neurodivergent coded, which is another reason for the flashfam not being nearly as popular (though i firmly believe that most if not all speedsters are adhd i mean just look at bart’s 90s solo comic but that’s not the point)

of course there’s also the fact that dc just loves promoting the batfam for whatever reason...most of the dc animated movies have batman + nightwing in them, and god whenever i scroll down to movies that have ‘batman’ in their title on my tv list it’s so goddamn long...batman himself is one of the most well-known fictional characters ever, and while the flash is popular, it pales in comparison to batman. most forms of dc media have the batfam or at least bruce, alfred + dick or damian in them (batman and harley quinn, batman vs robin, the dcamu universe, etc.) while the flash...

i’m pretty sure barry’s the only one to really consistently appear in any sort of dc media that isn’t comics, but the one movie that could be considered a flashfam movie is justice league: the flashpoint paradox and even then i feel like it’s a stretch. other than that, all i can think of if wally making some cameos in the 2003 teen titans cartoon + his appearances in ttg. even in video games, there’s no bart, no jay, no max—only barry as the flash and wally as kid flash, even if the timeline doesn’t make sense

so yeah. that’s my reasoning for why the batfam is so much more popular than the flashfam

[spock-smokes-weed]

Another annoying thing about Fanon Tim is that he never has friends before YJ and is completely antisocial. While Canon Tim "is it new school? cool, cool, cool. I'm going to make friends with every second person I meet. annoying jocks? a couple of minutes and we are the best bros forever."

LITERALLY!!!!

Honestly I don’t think any of these people who write for fanon Tim know a thing about his character. And that’s fine, but it’s super annoying and frustrating when you have read the comics. Not to mention how it’s actively destroying Tim’s reputation in the fanbase.

Even when it comes to his YJ friends they only ever focus on Kon and Bart; sometimes Cassie if you’re lucky. When there was a whole nother group of people who Tim was friends with and cared about. Greta, Cissie, Lagoon Boy, and even the friends he made in the titans are just never talked about. Not to mention the people he’s close with in the batfamily are erased in place of making Jason his hype man (which is just so fucking weird????). Like Dick, Steph, and Cass are all super important people to Tim and it makes me so insane seeing them get tossed aside or written badly to make their uwu sad boy look better.

Like Tim’s history is constantly getting shuffled around and twisted and it’s just so strange. Like things that happened when he first became Robin will be paired with things towards the end of his time as Robin and I’m just ??? what’s going on??? Like one time I read a fic that was about Jason’s attack on titans tower, and it mentioned that both of Tim’s parents were alive, when at this point both would have been dead. It seems like they just hear about a few things that happened to Tim and just fucking run with it.

Tim is also constantly being portrayed as a wide eyed fanboy who always listens to Batman and others heroes, and while that was a part of Tim’s characterization when he was first Robin, he drops it over time the more he’s involved with the hero stuff. Like Tim regularly lies to Batman all through YJ, is constantly shown to not always trust Bruce’s judgment, and even thought Bruce was guilt of murder for a time because of how Bruce was behaving. And when he does have a wide eyed admiration for another hero it dissolves into just regular coworker respect pretty quickly (like when he met Ted Kord). So seeing him constantly act like a squealing fan boy who thinks his heroes can do no wrong is mad cringe. 

I have this big conundrum when it comes to the fanon batman fandom, because I’m fully aware that comics are an expensive and difficult hobby, and I started from reading fanfic because I couldn’t afford anything, but at the same time it’s just so frustrating to see panels and comic arcs get take out of context and twisted to prop up a OOC version of a character. And with Tim being a character that not many people know about, fanon is actively ruining his reputation and that just makes me every more frustrated.

I think the place where I come from is that because I used to read a lot of fanon fics, not knowing they weren’t even close to canon, when I finally did get to reading the comics I got really mad because how things are in canon is just objectively so much better. There is so many great stories and character in the comics and seeing it brushed aside for these just fucking terrible and watered down clones makes me wanna chew glass. And there’s huge attitude among fanon that fanfic and fanon is far superior than the source material. Which is just???? There is a near century’s worth of comics for batman and ur telling me fanfiction is better that all of it??? Please for the love of g-d touch some grass.

All I can really do is call out bad fanon when I see it, and recommend good comics and plotlines to start with. I have a Batman recs list pinned on my blog that I updated every so often. If anyone is new and wants to read comics, if you’re willing to spend a little chunk of change then the DC Infinite app is a great resource (if ur in the us 😔). They have everything DC has ever published and it’s all organized. They even high light a lot of really good storylines. If you don’t want to do that then just hunt down a character recs list and pirate the fuck out of whatever is on there. Piracy is a victimless crime and it makes u cool and sexy. 

Just…. please… read a fucking comic book before I walk into the ocean

[leonicscorpio]

Why I’m Cautiously Optimistic for Batman: Urban Legends

So this is a spoiler review of Batman: Urban Legends and the story between Jason Todd and Bruce Wayne that was introduced to us yesterday. 

For those who don’t know, I like Jason Todd and The Red Hood. A lot. However being a Red Hood fan has been frustrating to say the least. He’s one of the most inconsistently written characters in the DCU. Prior to the New 52 and Rebirth. Red Hood was pretty much a straight-up villain. However under Scott Lobdell (for better or for worse) we got Red Hood and the Outlaws. Which transformed Jason from villain to Anti-Hero with varying shades of tropes from Sociopathic Hero at worst to Knight in Sour Armor at best. 

I am in no way trying to say that Jason is a bad character. I’d say he truly is my favorite DC Comics character. However a large portion of it comes from Lobdell’s portrayal of a bitter anti-hero trained by the deadliest assassins in the world coming off of a failed revenge attempt against his former parental guardian. To learning to mellow out a bit and still be a hero, but keep his deadly tactics. 

It’s hypocritical to say that I dislike the fact that Jason kills people.  Quite graphically and brutally mind you. Call it disturbing but that’s what a lot of people like about him. However what has caused a large rift between the DC Fans and Jason Todd is the fact that a lot of the time his foot is halfway in the anti-hero door, halfway trying to warm up to Bruce and the Batman. The problem with the later being Lobdell’s obsession with making Jason teeter between wanting to be on Bruce’s good side, reverting back to what he does best, which is kill, harm, and maim, and Bruce proceeding to hunt him down and beat Jason to within an inch of his life. 

It’s just as infuriating for us the readers as it is for the character. What I think fans would appreciate is if Jason were to just leave Batman, stay with the Outlaws, and be his own team. Helping Bruce out occasionally but letting Jason do his own thing. Or to have Bruce fully accept Jason as he is. Which, while is something that sounds nice, but thematically makes little to no sense considering the fact that Jason has done horrific things. Including but not limited to.. 

- Having been confirmed to have killed EIGHTY THREE PEOPLE (83). And this was at the beginning of OUTLAWS. That number has most certainly gone up. 

- Tortured a drug dealer to death by injecting them with bleach. 

- In Under the Red Hood, he decapitated the middle ranking members of the highest crime bosses in Gotham. (And from the shocked looks on their faces, it seems as though Jason started the decapitation process when they were alive) 

- Regularly attempted to harm/if not kill Dick Grayson, Tim Drake, and Damian Wayne in some earlier comics. 

- Tormented Mia Darden (Speedy) in Seeing Red about her past about being a sex worker and being homeless in her youth in a way to try to get her to join him. When she refuses Jason proceeds to blow up her school. Yikes. 

- In Last Crusade he killed a mook by Crushing their head in with a car door. Oh and he did that AS ROBIN. 

I’m fully aware a lot of those deeds were erased by the Rebirth/New 52. However it’s clear to see why Bruce, while probably does still care and support Jason. He absolutely cannot let Jason run around unchecked in his eyes.  That’s why I think it’s unlikely given the events of how Under the Red Hood transpired, Jason in his current state would ever truly and fully be welcomed back into the Bat Family. 

Okay LeonicScorpio, this is great and all, but this is supposed to be a post about Batman Urban Legends, you tell me. Well, my dear reader, I shall now get to it. I was setting up the fact that Jason, while he is heroic and has done heroic things, he also is someone who once reveled in violence, causing pain and suffering, and still has a core philosophy in believing killing people based on certain crimes is allowable. (SPOILERS FOR BATMAN: URBAN LEGENDS BELOW) 

Chip Zdarsky has done a fantastic job in introducing Jason in this side story. A new drug is sweeping across Gotham. Jason encounters a situation far too similar to his own upbringing. An overdosed mother and a sad crying boy confused. Jason takes the boy named Tyler and promises to protect him. 

While I’m on the fence about Eddy Barrows’s take on Jason style wise. You cannot understate the symbolism of his art in this shot. Jason Todd, the same one who came back from the dead and decapitated men when they were alive and reveled in causing pain, comforting a child when they were afraid in a genuine way is something a lot of the fanon has wanted for a long time. However Barrow’s art style gives a sense of uneasiness to the heroic-ness of Jason. Almost as if Jason is unsure of himself. It’s twisted in that it’s both dark but heroic. 

Things come to a head when Jason realizes Tyler’s father is probably a drug pusher in Gotham. And when he does finally catch up to the boy’s father. He does take a non-violent approach to trying to get Tyler’s father to turn around (Rubber bullets to the leg. Jason is trying.) However upon trying to reason with Tyler’s father Jason learns that his father was giving the drug to his mother and his son as a means of keeping them controlled. And that Tyler’s father doesn’t give a damn about his family. 

Now what do we know about Jason? He kills those who gives drugs to children and parents of children. So what comes next is very on-brand of Jason. Hell I wasn’t even shocked by Jason’s reaction to this at all. 

What happens after is what I’ve wanted to write for the longest time. Jason realizes that he’s just killed Tyler’s father. Even if his father didn’t care and was outright abusive towards him. He still killed his father. And Jason stops and drops to his knees because he realizes what he’s done. When I read that my reaction was literally the Jeff Goldblum “You did it, you crazy son of a bitch you did it.” I love Jason but I’ve wanted a story where Jason has to face the consequences of his philosophy and actions. Jason does want to be good and make a difference. But by killing Jason has dug himself into a hole he cant easily bury himself out of. 

So long story short Batman Urban Legends should have all of your attentions. 

[wesavegotham]

So don’t hate me but I’m kinda liking damian’s animated versions better than his comic one I really like his comic one but after all the shit happening where he has been nerfed nonstop getting beat by Thomas Wayne Batman, the teen titans red hood (although Jason attacked from behind like a bitch) and now flatline beating him. Not to mention Bruce not being a father and Damian now Being blamed for everything when they all have no room to talk. God I was satisfied when his old team died in future.

This is going to be a really long post, my apologies in advance.

I absolutely get where you’re coming from. I personally still like comic Damian more because I feel like there is more nuance and layers to him compared to the animated universe Damian, but that is simply the fault of the limited time they could spent on him in the movies.

Movie!Damian certainly wins more fights than comic!Damian and was never regressed in any way that is comparable to the shitshow that was Teen Titans (2016).

You’re adressing a problem I have with comic!Damian too right now, a problem that I’ve already talked about with some people here on tumblr in private. Which is that for all the talk about what Damian can do the comics have rarely shown all those skills Damian should have being used in the actual story in recent years and that is frustrating. I find Damian’s arrogance interesting as long as I feel like he can at least back it up in some way, but in recent time he comes off as just an idiot because he has done almost nothing but fail and lose and the writers still have him act like he’s the greatest. But it doesn’t feel like he can back up his confidence anymore. At all.

If I had to name a skill that differentiates Damian from the other Robins right now then I could only list his skill to hide from Batman and that is a skill he only has for plot convenience. We don’t see him do anything to cover his tracks, we are only told that he somehow did it. And I’m pretty sure that the second this skill stops being convenient for the story it will vanish once again. It will probably end like it did with Jon, where Damian somehow hid so well that Jon said they would never find him in Teen Titans, when they wanted an excuse for Jon to not get involved with his friend’s fall into darkness, but now that DC wanted them to interact again all of that is forgotten and Jon has no problems finding Damian.

Damian is not the most social Robin, nor the most intelligent one and considering how he seemed to lose against everything and everyone in recent years I can’t say with a straight face that he’s the best at fighting or the most skilled. And that IS a problem. Damian will never be known for his social skills or his detective skills, those niches are already taken by Dick and Tim, but in theory he should be a great fighter or a highly skilled person. Damian has sacrificed his entire life for training, both in the league of assassins and during his time with the batfamily. But if Damian sucks at fighting (as in: he loses a lot more than he wins) and his skills play no significant role in advancing the plot, then what is the point of his character? Great, he’s good at drawing and likes manga now, but how will that help with a fighting tournament? Or with solving the mystery behind the league of lazarus? A protagonist is usually supposed to be able to change the situation he is in, that is why he’s the protagonist and not someone else. So what makes Damian so unique that only  he can solve the situation he finds himself in during Robin and not someone like Conner Hawke? Or what makes him unique in the batfamily? I hope Robin adresses that soon. 

Of course now one could say “He still has an unique position as Bruce’s biological child”, but that also was completely irrelevant in recent years. For all the moments since the start of Rebirth that had batfam-fans complaining that Damian was favored by DC because of his status as the only biological child of Bruce, there were actually very few interactions between the two. Stuff like Bruce talking about Damian or saying that he loves him was primarily found in scenes in which Damian was not present. Or it came way too late, like in Teen Titans (and Bruce refusing to hit Damian in the face because he is his child sets such a low bar, I refuse to acknowledge that as a sign of love)

If you look at how Bruce actually treats Damian or describes him then there is little love there. He ignored his 13th birthday, did nothing when Damian left him after the events of Justice League: No Justice, it had no impact on the Batman books at all, Bruce only called Damian for missions like two times, once in City of Bane (which was just so shitty, as I already explained in a previous post) and a second time in Detective Comics #1017 (He sent Damian to find a missing kid in a snow storm, while he dealt with something else), refused to comfort him at Alfred’s wake and when Bruce reflects on what happened in Teen Titans he blames most of it on Damian’s personality, both in Detective Comics #1030 and in Robin #1, and both times there is nobody questioning Bruce’s asessment. He really doesn’t have anything nice to say about Damian and apparently we are not supposed to disagree with him. So in summary: Damian seems to have no skills that make him indispensable for the batfamily, Bruce seems to have a very low opinion of Damian’s character and now that they have decided to give us Bruce searching for Damian the only reason for that seems to be that Bruce suddenly feels responsible for his child, even though that should have already been the case when Damian seperated from him in 2018 or at least directly after the second Teen Titans annual.

Even the kinda nice things Bruce says about Damian in Robin #1 can be called into question if you think about them. He says he has no doubt that Damian can take care of himself...and then we see Damian getting his heart ripped out at the end of the very same issue. Of course we know that Damian’s story doesn’t end there, so I won’t judge this too harshly yet, but to me this didn’t come off as Damian being able to take care of himself.

And I get letting Damian lose at the start of the tournament to establish Flatline as a threat and to make it clear that this tournament is not a game. I also get that Damian’s fight against King Snake was supposed to make sure that we still think of Damian as competent even though he loses later on. But at least for me, winning against King Snake was not cool or badass enough to make up for the fact that Damian was easily killed, in front of everyone, by a literal nobody like Flatline. King Snake is an old, blind guy, that didn’t show up in any DC comic I read since I started in 2018 and that was apparently beaten by Tim in his solo comic when he was 14 back in the 90s. Sorry, but that just isn’t impressive enough for me, especially since I’ve seen Damian lose so much in recent years. It doesn’t establish Flatline as a badass, it just makes me think that Damian is not that great of a fighter and shouldn’t be in this tournament.

I have some more thoughts on the tournament that make me wish that the arc will start being less about winning the tournament itself and more about something like taking down the league of lazarus soon (mainly the fact that a fight about being the best fighter is useless if the big guns are not taking part, the fact that you can only win by killing your oponent, which should be a problem for Damian and how nothing we know about the rewards for winning, becoming part of the league of lazarus und apparently immortality, is desirable for Damian), but this answer is already too long.

I’m going to be honest an admit that I did not like the ending of Robin #1 at all and that I hope that Williamson will show Damian being competent really soon because I’m not here for another pointless arc about Damian learning humility. I want to see Damian win for once, you know, like other protagonist usually do at the end of an arc and if Damian can’t even win or tell us what’s going on with him from his point of view in a book about him then I’m probably going to feel very disappointed by this book.

[stxleslyds]

so sorry if i'm wrong but it seems that nothing of Jason content since UtRH is ever right for you. that seems tiring

Hi Anon! Please don’t be sorry, I do complain a lot about the Jason content that we have had along the years and I have talked about my frustration on the matter too.

But in reality, even though I don’t find most Jason content appealing or well done, I am still happy for people that are able to enjoy the new content, oftentimes I find myself even feeling a little jealous of those who can accept other versions of Jason so easily.

My first contact with Jason was through the animated movie Batman: Under the Red Hood, I absolutely loved it and I was also really excited that Jensen Ackles was in the movie because I have always been a fan of his, but that was all I knew for a while about Jason Todd/Red Hood, if I wanted to read DC comics, I always picked up something with Dick Grayson in it.

Then a long time passed by and I came across Red Hood/Arsenal and because I saw that it had Roy in it, I decided to check it out. I was so horrified; Roy wasn’t really Roy and Red Hood didn’t seem to be the same as the Red Hood that I had seen in that movie years ago.

So, I went looking for information and Red Hood’s origin, and that’s when I read Batman: Under the Red Hood. Best comic book that I have ever read, it made me want to read more and more from DC, I had finally found a character in DC that I loved as much as Dick Grayson/Nightwing. But after reading that masterpiece I jumped directly into New 52 Red Hood and the Outlaws, my heart was broken and I hated every page that I read from it, Rebirth hadn’t started yet but I was able to find Red Hood: The Lost Days and I fell in love once more (only one thing bothered me and when I looked into it, I saw that Winick said that it had happened to make the reader feel bothered).

My love for that version of Jason was something that I could only find in two books, and I grew massively attached to it for some reason. But at the time Red Hood/Arsenal was coming to an end and I had already read New 52 RHatO too, so I knew that the Jason Todd that I had attached myself to didn’t really exist anymore.

The Jason that I want back so desperately sometimes appears here and there, I have been able to enjoy certain arcs and certain takes in different runs because of it but I am just attached to something that deep down, I know doesn’t exist anymore in the DC universe.

Sometimes it isn’t about Jason and how he is written but the situations and events they drag him towards, Jason is one of those characters that I feel DC doesn’t know what to do with, Lobdell’s characterization was messy for ten years and now he is in permanent limbo.

My greatest frustration with DC and their “treatment” of Jason is that they had many chances of making him be like he used to be, but they have not done that in favour of giving us a concept that will never work in comics’ canon.

I always try to keep my mind positive, I did it when Future State: Red Hood and Urban Legends: Cheer were announced. FS was a story that I could have enjoyed plot wise but because I don’t like “romances” or comics’ take on romance I wasn’t able to enjoy it as much as I wanted. Cheer’s first two parts were issues that I actually liked overall, and then… well, you can see it for yourself, my reviews grew more and more frustrated as the book seemed to lean more towards a Batman story and then a fanon Jason Todd/Red Hood story.

And now I am thrilled about Matthew Rosenberg’s Task Force Z, I cannot wait for that ongoing to begin, what I have already seen of Rosenberg’s Jason in Detective Comics has been amazing and I am really enjoying it so far.

So, it is tiring for me to sometimes get on the hype train and then realise that we are headed towards a cliff but I will still put myself on that train for some Red Hood content.

I just hope that everyone understands that my thoughts on Jason’s current characterization or path aren’t the absolute truth, I will never gatekeep Jason or Red Hood, I just come here to share my thoughts, I would love it if they were more positive and happier but the Jason that we have been getting just isn’t my cup of tea.

Anyway Anon, thank you for the ask and I hope you have a wonderful week!

[ectonurites]

Am I the only one who doesn’t like that they’ve given away Cassie’s Wonder Girl title and set this new character up as the future Wonder Woman out of nowhere? I’ve always seen Wonder Woman as Cassie’s future, and I feel like the comics definitely pointed towards that. But now there’s this new character who I don’t feel has earned it. And honestly? I feel the same way about Jon being seen as a shoo-in for taking over as Superman. And I love Jon! (At least I did before he got aged up. Now I’m sadly either indifferent or annoyed depending on the day) But I feel like Superman has always been Kon’s future, and now it’s been given to someone else. So where does that leave them? Kon’s no longer seen as one of the main Supers, Superman isn’t his future, and now he’s been shunted onto the Suicide Squad. When you introduce new characters this way, eventually older characters get pushed out of their spots to give ‘legitimacy’ to the newer ones.

Sorry for ranting! This got a bit away from me. Apparently I’m more upset about this than I thought I was!

Don’t be sorry, I totally get you!

I rewrote this multiple times to try to keep it short but I had some tangentially related thoughts, that got long.

To me the big problems with these hero legacies is... if you’re not gonna ever let go of your main big characters, then the characters who are considered ‘in line’ for the titles are....  just going to perpetually be ‘in line’. 

Because I mean, DC is never gonna actually kill/retire Bruce, Diana, or Clark permanently in the main timeline. They make the company too much money. Even if creatively it’d be cool, DC still wants to be financially successful. So their legacies are always going to be people in line for something that will only come to pass in like special events, or alternate futures, or for smaller periods of time etc etc.

Setting up a character to be in this ‘waiting’ position can be cool, again that’s how a lot of sidekicks are. But, it’s understandable that after a while, keeping the same character in this ‘waiting’ position kinda halts them from becoming anything more, and it could get boring. So introducing new characters who might approach the position in a different way, and bring new life to it, definitely can make sense to do! 

BUT if you’re going to introduce new characters to be in these ‘waiting for the legacy’ positions, you need to be damn sure you have a PLAN for the characters who were doing so previously!

Dick and Donna and Wally had all already moved on from their titles by the time Tim, Cassie, and Bart came around. (Dick was Nightwing, Donna I believe was going by ‘Darkstar’ when Cassie was introduced, and Wally was the rare case where he DID actually become his mentor’s old role longterm, since Barry was dead for a pretty long time after Crisis on Infinite Earths) (also Sorry Kon but you get left out at this part because there was no Superboy in that generation) (also rip Jason but Tim is more relevant to this discussion, Jason falls outside of either of these generations and especially is tricky with the whole death and resurrection thing, but he was out of the Robin/potential future Batman position too by Tim’s time because of death. and when he came back he did his own thing) This allowed Robins and Wonder Girls to not really step on each other’s toes, and Bart initially using the Impulse name instead of Kid Flash anyways distanced himself further.

Later though we saw what can happen when a new person comes into a role before the previous person was ready to give it up, aka the whole Tim & Damian fiasco. But, because Tim still had a solo book as Red Robin that allowed him to continue developing a distinct role and begin to establish himself while Damian did his own thing as Robin separately, it turned out relatively okay! Until that reboot hit and Tim just became stagnant as hell due to de-aging and backstory tampering. Because they just fucked with his character so bad and then have had to spend Rebirth trying to fix it. 

And now with Cassie & Yara we’re entering this period of a similar ‘new person present in the role while the previous person is still around’ situation, except... the previous person in the role isn’t being given a space to continue to grow and create their own legacy like Tim was starting to do in Red Robin. 

Yara is going to be getting a solo and Cassie’s not... anywhere. That’s what concerns me. If Cassie was at least still going to be in like a team book, be in a place that would allow her to keep being explored as a character and hopefully start to maybe find a new distinct path of her own since Yara is now the one in line for Wonder Woman, then I wouldn’t mind as much. Giving Cassie a different direction could be really cool for her! But when that’s super not the case, like how it seems right now, it just makes me sad because Cassie’s really going into limbo. 

Kon & Jon’s situation is messy as hell because of Kon not existing for a while, and rapid aging etc but DC has made it pretty clear by placing Jon right with Clark and shoving Kon into the Suicide Squad which one is the main Superboy they’re interested in exploring and having be the next in line for Superman. And even though it sucks that the Suicide Squad of all places is where they’re putting Kon, at least he IS in a book that will maybe allow them to work on keeping him distinct and maybe finding a new direction? I just wish it was a different book.

And with Kon specifically its complicated even more than the Bat legacy or the Wonder legacy because Kon was literally created to be Superman one day. We can compare being a sidekick to being in line for a legacy in other cases, but Kon was never even a sidekick, he was always the clone created to take over for Superman. So for him of all people, taking away that legacy is even heavier. And I don’t even want to say it’s bad necessarily, because a lot of stuff Kon has done has been ‘trying to be my own distinct person from Clark’, but again if you want to explore him going down a different path the answer isn’t to just make a new Superboy and shove Kon off into a corner.

Then Bart & Irey’s situation’s unique because neither of them are really reported to be showing up in anything right now, but technically there’s two Impulses too since Irey was yeeted back into existing a while ago. So that’s a thing. (and it’s tricky because right before the reboot when Irey had become Impulse, Bart was Kid Flash so that didn’t contradict anything, but now Wallace is Kid Flash, so it puts Bart in an awkward situation)

But yeah essentially, I think it’s understandably frustrating. If DC had a clear plan for the Tim/Kon/Cassie/Bart generation right now then I wouldn’t mind the strong push on the newer characters now being the ones in line to fulfill the legacies/roles. It’s just that these guys are mostly getting left behind or being stuck without a proper place to develop, which sucks a lot.

Again, at least Kon is in an ongoing book, and we know we’re getting one Tim story that the description mentions him “looking for a new purpose” so that’s definitely the right idea/on the right track, but I just don’t want Cassie and Bart to get left behind. 

[gffa]

Hi! Loved your posts a lot. I love Nightwing and redhood .But the thing that annoyed a hell out of me is the way fandom jason is potrayed . Jason stans always want jason to be Nightwing 2.0.Their question is always like why jason isn't respected among heroes like dick? Why jason doesn't lead the titans like dick? .Was jason as good looking as dick?. Jason should be well suited to be spy than dick . Jaybabs is better than dickbabs.Dick is worst friend to roy. Jason should be Tim role model not dick.sometimes it confuses me if they both have same personality with different names. What's your thoughts on this.

I want to step carefully with this answer because I don't want to make it seem like Jason fans are a monolith (they're most definitely not, half of my Cool People in this fandom are the most excellent DC fans you'll ever meet and Jason is Their Guy!!!) or that I'm talking about anything other than a very specific subset of fans. And that any time I say "Jason fans", it is specifically about the subsection who falls into this, not the whole of his fandom!! And, as a caveat, I'm only talking about my experiences in Jason fandom--of which I do consider myself a part of!--but that someone else who is deeper into Jason fandom than I am may have COMPLETELY different experiences than what either you or I have experienced! And, to be clear, I will point the finger in any direction, that every Bat has a subset of fans that is deeply frustrating, Tim fans have it, Damian fans have it, Dick fans have it, Bruce fans have it, etc. Every one of them has that group of fans that I go ??? over. But also I think I should be clear in that I think we should try to approach other corners of fandom with empathy, because a) we're all annoying nerds to someone else as well, that's just what fandom is and b) this fandom is hostile enough over comic book characters of all things, I'm going to try to limit the amount of gasoline I throw on the fire. ;) I think what causes a lot of fanon Jason in a certain subset of fandom comes from a mix of - Not a lot of regular appearances/his own book/GOOD appearances in his own book/a consistent characterization in those books - A lot of people read more fic than they do the comics - People naturally want their babygirl to have nice things, that's a pretty human response - Jason was kind of created to be a Dick Grayson clone in the first place, in some ways, so it's a natural extension

Jason fans have it rough in canon because he is all over the place, he's not written consistently, so half of the time he's written as the woobie, half of the time he's written as two steps away from being full villain, and it feels like every author has a different take on how Jason sees himself or what he wants. It's hard to agree on what Jason's character is like/what the point of him in the larger comics landscape is, because even the canon can't agree on that. So, then you throw in all these epically long fics that are written by extremely talented authors, who have a consistent take within their own writing, which explores Jason's issues in a way that feels like it has a lot more depth and vulnerability to him, and it's easy to go, yeah, okay, comics are kind of thin, but now I have this strongly developed sense of him in my mind! And when comics don't match that, when Jason is meaner or more of a villain or less cool in the comics, because the comics didn't do all that character work, the fic did, it becomes easy to go, "This isn't what Jason deserves, he deserves to have his issues explored better!" And, like. Jason does deserve better than what Nu52 gave him. It's a thing that a lot of fic vs comics have--like, there's a subset of Tim's fandom that writes him as the most delicate character ever (there's a lot of fic that explores Tim's vulnerabilities, I am not talking about those!!!) and, guess what, has to make Dick a terrible person in those fics as well, like the whole "Dick tried to send Tim to Arkham" is a straight up lie about what happened, but how many of us have still come across it? Which I think comes from that Dick Grayson is a character that you just kind of can't remove from the foundational Batman narrative and mythos, like you can't remove Bruce and still get what you need for the set-up--but Bruce occupies the space of "Dad" for the characters, so he has a very different, defined place in the Robin Of Choice's life. Dick, on the other hand, you can't just lift him out--he created Robin, he was the one that dragged Bruce out of the dark in the first place and created the role of Adopted Kid Who Bruce Is Complicated About, and still occupies that space very strongly. Even when he hasn't been Robin in a long time, his shadow casts extremely long, because honestly I'll die on the hill that I think he's everyone's favorite Robin to this day. Bruce? Yeah. Jason? Yeah. Tim? Yeah. Damian? Even if he never met Robin!Dick, I'd bet he's still say Dick was his favorite Robin. Superman? Explicitly said it in a comic.

(And I feel like there's an element that can be explored on how Dick also set the expectation of how to grow out of being Robin--he moved on to being Nightwing, so we expect that of the other Robins. I've been complaining forever that Tim needs to be allowed to finally do this, to step out of being Robin and not just be Red Robin, but to find his own unique thing. And, honestly, that probably does look more like Nightwing than not. I think there's an expectation that eventually Damian will realize that he doesn't want to be Batman and will instead be something else--or at least that it's a strong possibility. Which again looks a lot more like Nightwing than it maybe should. Because what else do you do with characters when you want to establish them out on their own? So Jason should follow that same path, right? He's kind of halfway onto it, with being Red Hood now, it's just that Red Hood has such a complicated history with how many people he's murdered, so what other options should there be? And patterning him after Nightwing, just as his Robin was patterned off of Dick's Robin in a lot of ways, could be a natural step forward for him there, too.) So, the specter of Dick Grayson hangs over the role and the Bat-son's place in Bruce's life--two things that are big issues in Jason's life. Then you add in that Jason was basically created to replace Dick Grayson exactly, like you can't even tell the difference in half of the panels of Jason's time as Robin if you don't already know. Then you add in that, to try to flesh out Roy's character, they gave him Roy and Kory as friends, two people who were Dick's friends first. And that makes sense--who else would you have as Jason's friends, given his general age? The Justice League is too old for him, Young Justice is too young for him, the only major team in his age bracket are the Titans--characters he does have some connection with, via Roy and Kory. And it's a natural question of, well, why didn't Jason lead them, too? Because Dick lead a team, Tim lead a team, it felt like a thing Robin was supposed to do, to the point that, when Dick introduced Damian to the Teen Titans, he automatically assumed he would lead (well, that's also just Damian XD) because that's what Robins do, why shouldn't Jason, too? So, I see where all of it comes from and understand the appeal--it's a lot more fun than the canon for Jason can be at times and feels like it understands his character better and fanon Jason is a lot more likeable and there's often times a lot that's explore that is really, really good character stuff. I think a lot of Dick's characteristics get ported over to Jason because there's just not as much else established for him in the canon, whether friends or a solidified narrative presence or even a consistent characterization, and Dick's a fun character, he has a rich history of friends and complicated dynamics with characters, like his relationship with Bruce is ridiculously fun to dig into, his relationship with Jason can actually be really interesting, his relationship with Tim is both adorable and has some nice crunch, his relationship with Damian is heart-wrenching--who wouldn't want a character with a wealth of dynamics and characterization to step into? Especially when you go back to canon and Jason's borderline a villain who isn't justified in killing people but still does it anyway, whose trauma is not getting explored in a way that's as satisfying as fanon's version of him is, because canon Jason is a lot more of a hot mess and stepped over the line, while fanon Jason tends to be more righteous and still on the right side of the line. (Or at least intended to, there's a lot of "Jason should be allowed to kill people and not be a bad guy for it." out there.) I think this is why I get a lot of Jason fans reblogging my comics posts about canon who yell at me for liking garbage comics when, guys, I'm just reacting to what's actually on the page for Jason.

Jason is a character who has this massive fandom that has been built up around the potential of the character, much of which had to be borrowed from Dick because that's the only really available options and because his central relationship (the one with Bruce) has so many parallels to Dick's relationship (with Bruce) and because Dick being who he is means that he's very easy to like (Dick's not perfect and I'm certainly biased here, but I do genuinely think that Dick is pretty easy to like as a person) and because he has such a rich history of dynamics and relationships that fans see as being really fun to explore, if only Jason had had those relationships instead. I suspect a lot of it comes down to that there's this massive fandom for Jason--fic, posts about him, fanart of him, headcanons for him, etc., throw a rock in fandom and you'll hit a popular post that has Jason as their babygirl Blorbo--and comics themselves don't often match that and comics fandom are pretty notorious for hating their source material/throwing it out in a way that's borderline assumed default MO, so Jason fans aren't any different from people complaining that this comic or that comic coming out right now are garbage. Anyway, that's been my experience. It's not that Jason fandom doesn't do unique things with Jason's character (his death is different from what Dick's experienced, his relationship with Bruce does often come in different flavors, etc.) but the places where they overlap are ones that I can understand why it happens, even if I often personally find that it doesn't match up to who he is in the source material now and feel like there's a lot of really good, crunchy unexplored angles for a character who has been deeply hurt, but went over the line about it, like that's why the recent short story in Beast World Tour: Gotham went so hard for me, because it felt like it had teeth and claws in a way that I've been wanting for Jason for a long time.

[catalystofchange]

A - Ships that you currently like a lot.

A - Ships that you currently like a lot. (They don’t have to be OTPs because not everyone has OTPs.) Friendships, pairings, threesomes, etc. are allowed.

Slade Wilson and Dick Grayson (OTP? Yes).

I know it's controversial, but hear me out. The dynamic between Dick and Slade is unique, because Slade and Dick both truly see and understand each other in a way no one else does (or cares to do). The respect is sincere, and while they often find themselves on opposite sides, they display a genuine affection and concern for each other in spite of Slade's insistence that it's just business. These two truly care for each other in very quiet, unobtrusive ways, and I love that subtly. I also love the... dark aspects of the ship, but that's a story for another time. Slade needs someone he can take care of who is strong and competent enough to withstand how Slade is, and Dick needs someone who will stand unwavering in his support and belief in him. Both of those things are highly valued by each of them, and it's something they bring to each other. I just. I LOVE THEM.

(On an unrelated note, I didn't start out feeling this strongly about the ship. It wasn't until I found a partner who actually seemed to understand the characters more deeply. The lack of fulfillment before almost ruined the ship for me, but I'm so glad I've found what I was always missing before. This ship has sailed to the top of my list now because of this person. Thank you, @mutantxagenda!)

Jason Todd and Roy Harper (OTP? Yes). 

This ship is controversial for a lot of reasons. I know there are a lot of people out there who get deeply frustrated and offended that DC "took away" Dick's friend and gave him to Jason. I think this is ridiculous. Dick has 8793402087259 friends, and he would be ecstatic to know that Jason found a friend in Roy. He couldn't think of a *better* friend for Jason to have. There's no need to be offended on his behalf. Dick is not offended. He is an adult, and is perfectly capable of sharing friends. Not only that, but he's seen how Roy and Jason are together. They each bring out a softness and a gentle humor that they lacked growing up. Both Roy and Jason were (in some ways) rejected by their father figures. They never felt like they measured up to Dick Grayson. Roy saw himself as a failed sidekick and Jason saw himself as a failed Robin. I think (aside from me just not being the biggest fan of Batcest), I prefer them because they can both relate to each other without adding to the problem. They aren't jealous of each other. Roy doesn't demand a lot from Jason and often teaches him to relax, have fun, and live a little. I like to think he makes him laugh at least once a week. That's more than worth it to him.

However, there was a part of Roy that always wanted to bring Jason back to his family. He didn't like how far he was sliding down into more and more questionable activity, because it meant it would be harder for him to go back. He tried to act as a conscience of sorts - at least, until Jason took off. There is part of him that still blames himself for that and always will. It's just in his nature.

Jason Todd and Dick Grayson (OTP? No. Platonic OTP). 

This is the one ship that made it on the list that ISN'T romantic. I want to say that I don't really care if other people ship the Batfam together, but I personally do not feel comfortable shipping it unless the characters in question are in an AU and have no relation.

But there's no doubt I love Jason and Dick's relationship. Jason is blunt with Dick and is able to redirect his thoughts (similar to how Slade is able to do with Dick). They are both grounding forces - and, in Jason's case, possess a deeper understanding of what's going on. They are the only two Robins who experienced Bruce Wayne prior to Jason Todd's untimely death. They understand more than any of the other siblings what it was like to be raised in a household like that, and they can deeply sympathize with each other for that reason. The difference is in the opposite ways they chose to handle it. Dick turned the anger inward and carried responsibility on his own shoulders, but Jason externalized and projected his anger on others. It made Jason look like the bad kid and Dick like the good kid, which had become a source of contention over the years, and it wasn't even true.

Dick carries an immense amount of guilt for what happened to Jason and would spend every second of his life trying to make it up to him. Part of him is always concerned it's too late to turn things around, even though he has seen changes in the recent months. For the first time, he felt like he has an actual brother. The relationship between them utterly breaks my heart (in a good way), and the depth this player and I have managed to reach with these characters continues to astound me. I've never found that in anyone I've ever written with. That's at least 90% why it's made the list. :) *coughcough* and in case anyone hasn’t guessed, that’s the same player already mentioned.

[our-happygirl500-fan]

Okay okay okay okay, I know I’m asking a lot of stuff and probs annoying you. I’m currently reading about the character but what about her and Tim?? Like can I get a run down of everything about them. The good and bad?? Everytime I see things on here it’s either making Tim to be so bad (Anti-Tim ig) or Steph to be so bad and I’m sure they’re both at fault, yea?

No I’m happy to help.

Both Tim and Steph have made mistakes but not in an awful way and more in a ‘these are literal children dealing with serious situations while also trying to be in a relationship with one another’. 

The Steph being bad stuff entirely comes from the fact that she’s a female love interest to a boy who’s one half of a popular mlm ship, she’s made mistakes here and there but they’re human instances where she’s trying to do her best, fandoms often tend to erase or demonise female characters in any any fandom if they are involved in a ship. It’s a sexist habit that comes from reducing a female to only her romantic relationship and ignoring all her other connections and reeks of misogyny. There’s also some slut shaming as Steph was a teen pregnancy & a victim of sexual assault multiple times.

The anti Tim stuff is a bit more complicated, partly it’s a response to sexism where so many fans are sick of the misogyny directed at Steph that they go full throttle the other way or it comes from fans genuinely uncomfortable with Tim’s actions as this is comics and comics are usually written by sexist men which means Tim sometimes takes actions or says something that is not so great.

The important thing to remember about Tim and Steph is that they are each others best friends and they have been through so much together to the point where even if they were not dating they would still be one of the most important relationships the other had.

There is some worry that Tim and Steph feeds into each others complexes 

Tim and Steph both experienced neglect growing up in different ways which makes their attitude to love very different.

Tim's parents were never around most of the time which makes him sort of desperate for love, for validation and most of the time he seems to be of the sort that love is something he can earn if he just does the right thing or achieves the right goal which reflects on how he probably thought if he got good grades or made his parents proud they'd notice him more they'd spend time with him more.

Steph's childhood of neglect I guess you could say came from the sickness of her parents Arthur Brown was abusive to both his wife and daughter and Crystal's drug addiction making her barely able to raise Steph half the time. More often than not it was Steph taking care of the house hold and her mother than any adult looking out for Steph.

With the neglect Steph went through she knew that there was nothing /she/ herself could do to change it, she couldn't magically make her mother quit taking drugs or stop her father from committing crimes by winning an award or behaving well, heck most of her childhood was just trying to keep her and her mum alive so in contrast with Tim who is desperate to receive love Steph is desperate to give love. Because if she's giving love to this person that means they care about her too right? 

This comes across in how easy Steph is willing to poor love into people who are even remotely nice to her like the second Barbara or Bruce stop treating her like shit she's immediately like 'I would die for you'. The second her mother is sober enough to notice her Steph is there being like 'mom I love you I would protect you with my life'. Cass is slightly nice to her? She is now Steph's best friend.

Tim is desperate to receive unconditional affection while Steph is desperate to give unconditional affection which would explain why they are drawn to one another but enough about the meta and onto their actual history.

Steph became a vigilante originally to stop her fathers crimes, the entire point of Spoiler was an abuse victim taking agency back from her abuser and due to Tim being Robin and also investigating the same crimes the two would run into each other multiple times, there was an attraction between the two however neither truly pursued anything due to the fact that Tim was dating another girl and Steph was ‘seeing’ a guy (though the relationship was implied to be unhealthy as he was significantly older, Steph only being around 14 at the time, and showed little in Steph’s actual well being).

However despite the two already being in relationships the two developed keen banter together and quickly began to enjoy the others presence what arguably set then on the path towards a relationship however is when Tim very nearly died and Steph managed to save him at the last second, Tim was so relieved that he kissed Steph sparking a romantic interest from Steph and Tim beginning to realise he had feelings for her.

Steph would then continue fighting crime outside of her fathers crimes as Steph realised that as Spoiler she could help other abuse victims such as herself. Steph’s entire life can be described as falling through the cracks in the system no one caring about the abuse and unsafe situations that she grew up with and Steph’s early journey as Spoiler is her realising that even though no one had cared when she was abused and hurt she could be the person who would care for other people so no one would suffer the way she did. Steph aiming to fight crime meant that she and Tim ran into each other even more working multiple cases together until it eventually culminated into Tim admitting that he had feelings for Steph but due to his loyalty to Batman he could never tell her his secret identity however Steph told him that that was enough for her, the two ended their previous relationships and started dating.

This is actually where a lot of criticism over the relationship is from due to the obvious power imbalance Tim knows every detail of Steph’s life while controlling all information Steph has on him and only lets her interact with Robin. Tim has also been shown to be rather possessive of Steph controlling her interactions with other members of the superhero community and expressing alarm in her spending time with other heroes who are not him.

There is also the fact that for a large part every man Stephanie has ever interacted with have been abusive in some way, her home life was incredibly dangerous due to her mother and fathers friends all being criminals or victims and Steph had to deal with at least two instances of child predators growing up so to many readers it becomes increasingly obvious that Tim might very well be the first man Steph ever interacted with who treated her with human decency and that is why she fell in love with him.

After the relationship started Steph found out that she had become pregnant from her previous relationship and the reader discovers that Steph’s previous boyfriend on top of being awful to her was also using her for sex. Steph tells Tim about the pregnancy fully expecting him to break up with her however Tim states that he is going to be there to support Steph. The two grow even closer as Tim becomes someone for Steph to lean on wearing disguises to take Steph to birthing classes and helps Steph through the process of putting the baby up for adoption. Tim is even there when the child is born.

The incident made Tim and Steph even closer and afterwards the two continue dating and remain close, Steph quickly becomes what could be considered Tim’s safe place as he is able to leave any problems as Tim Drake or Robin away and simply enjoy being with her and during times where Tim is unable to visit Steph he is shown to be tense and disgruntled without the positive emotional outlet however after nearly over a year and a half of dating Steph begins to realise that the dynamic of the relationship is uneven as Tim has complete control and knowledge over her own life while she knows nothing about Tim’s life out of the mask. Steph begins to worry about merely being used and starts openly wishing that Tim would let her be more involved with his life outside of Robin.

Tim meanwhile is beginning his rebellious phase against Batman and Bruce takes actions to try and nip it in the bud as Dick’s rebellious phase ended with Dick leaving Batman for the Titans and Jason’s rebellious phase ended with Jason dead. Bruce attempts to control Tim by using Steph revealing Tim’s secret identity to Tim. After that point Bruce would continually manipulate Steph in a gambit to manipulate Tim and Tim expresses frustration at Bruce using Steph to get to him.

Bruce and Steph’s relationship is incredibly complicated in its own right as Steph has a childhood admiration of Batman as he was the only one who seemed to be able to stop her fathers abuse by putting him in prison. This childhood admiration causes Steph to follow and respect Bruce no matter how many times his actions hurt her. Bruce on the other hand has a lot of issues regarding Steph as Steph reminds him a lot of Jason and Bruce puts a lot of his unresolved issues regarding his dead son on her which as you might assume does not end well for Steph at all.

Outside of Bruce’s meddling however Steph and Tim grow increasingly close no longer having to worry about secret identities the two go on regular dates and are there for each other in every aspect of their lives. However Tim’s father finds out about Robin and forces him to quit and Steph who had been dating Tim ‘batman needs a Robin’ Drake for years was firmly of the belief that ‘Gotham needs a Robin’ at which point Steph herself becomes the fourth Robin though it is heavily implied that once again Bruce is manipulating Steph in order to manipulate Tim into coming back.

Then DC enters its dark ages where they kill off characters left and right and Steph is tortured, raped and killed in a Gotham wide gang war primarily for Bruce angst so that Bruce can go ‘oh god it’s Jason all over again I knew she was girl Jason I knew it’ mean while Tim has what can probably be best described as a mental break down over Steph’s death and the subsequent death of his father and multiple friends. This causes Tim to become cold, cynical and increasingly dark and pessimistic (he has depression).

However Steph comes back to Gotham two years later alive again and it is revealed that Leslie Thompkin’s essentially kidnapped Steph to Africa for two years and faked Steph’s death in order to try and save Steph from being a soldier in Batman’s crusade. Steph was Leslie’s ward for two years but realised that she could literally not stop fighting crime as in Africa Steph literally started dressing up as an African legend and started fighting crime there, eventually convincing Leslie that they needed to go back to Gotham the two returned and Tim was over the moon to see Steph alive kissing her on sight, however Tim realises that he essentially had a break down over Steph death for nothing and expresses resentment over Steph letting him believe that she was dead for two years. Steph who had spent the past to years recovering physically and mentally from the trauma of being tortured for days prior to Leslie faking Steph’s death and Steph essentially not having had a choice in Leslie’s plan to fake her death is just like ‘I don’t know what to tell you buddy’ 

Steph is still Tim’s emotional home, immediately relying on her for emotional support once again and the two are shown to still love each other however the two had changed a great deal over the time they were apart. Steph having had an adult finally care about her well being for the first time in her life grew much more positive into someone who believed in the inherent good in people and in hope while Tim had grown harsh and dark and cynical. The two even joke about how Steph has become an optimist while Tim had become a pessimist. Steph is like a beam of light for Tim who had become increasingly dark and Tim finds himself being both wary of it and drawn to it.

Then Bruce gets back to his old tricks of using Steph to manipulate Tim and gives Steph instructions to challenge Tim in order to improve Tim’s skills as a crime fighter. Steph on Bruce’s orders employs and assassin to fight Tim however the assassin goes to far and Steph is injured trying to protect Tim. Tim realising that Bruce is once again manipulating Steph to get to him as well as having an inherent fear of Steph dying again demands that Steph should not be a vigilante any longer never mind that Steph literally can not stop fighting crime which causes a rift between the two.

The superhero community then believe that Batman is dead and Tim leaves Gotham to prove that Bruce is alive while Tim is gone from Gotham Cass makes Steph the new Batgirl and Steph becomes incredibly close to Barbara and Damian and as Batgirl makes several friends within the masked community no longer having her interactions be controlled by Tim or Bruce. Steph starts coming into her own and building up her self confidence, when Tim returns he is once again upset that Steph is still fighting crime his fear of Steph dying still going strong and acts condescending towards Steph’s attempts to help him however Steph proves herself in sheer level of skill and prowess and Tim accepts her as a vigilante and the new Batgirl accepting that Steph will not die again. Tim then attempts to rekindle their romantic relationship however Steph realises that she had been too dependent on Tim’s love and wishes to improve herself as a person before she even thinks of entering a relationship again. The two remain close friends however Tim expresses attraction towards Steph multiple times (Tim is the horniest little fuck during this time in their lives and Steph is literally out their trying to live her life and better herself as a person and get a university degree it’s hilarious)

If Convergence is to believe the two would always eventually get back together in one way or another the two issues being about their romantic interest in each other and getting back together.

After the reboot happens when they meet again Tim immediately expresses romantic interest in Steph while Steph herself is wary of Tim as in this universe both her mother and her father are criminals who have tried to kill her and Steph has effectively been homeless living in public libraries or where ever she can. It is unknown when but Tim offers Steph a place to live at his apartment and a some point the two eventually enter a romantic relationship.

A lot of fans have criticised this as Steph is entirely financially dependent on Tim for food and shelter and once again Tim holds more power than Steph in the relationship. Also in the rebooted universe Tim is Steph’s only support system as her parents tried to kill her, her father murdered any civilians she was close to in order to hurt her and any connections Steph had before the reboot have had vast amounts of their history erased.

Steph has also been shown to be responsible for a lot of Tim’s mental health as she has to stop him from crossing lines or going off the deep end multiple times it is described as Tim having a tendency of walking a dark path when he is alone. 

Steph and Tim are both presented as each others support systems in current comics and when Tim wanted to leave Gotham in order to research the multiverse Steph went with him as the two rely on each other.

I don’t believe there is a good guy or bad guy in their relationship both Tim and Steph want what’s best for each other but sometimes these views don’t line up which causes conflict but at the end of the day they are two people that care about each other a great deal and whether they are in a relationship or not they will always be one of the most important people in each others lives.

The relationship is criticised by the fandom as fans either fetishise mlm relationships and are angry at Steph ‘getting in the way’ an unfortunate trend in all fandoms and on the other side many are tired of female characters being reduced to their romantic relationships.

TimSteph is a cute ship with a deep connection and a lot of history proving that they care about each other a great deal but sexism and misogyny are things that exist especially in fandom spaces and that creates a nightmare.