#orv theory

[orphiclovers]

Avatar - fundamentally broken skill?

This is a thing I have been thinking about. The way powers (skills, stigmas, whatever) work in the world of ORV is fascinating in that they are not designed to help the incarnation or adjust to their bodies like a classical superpower. It's repeated many times that the Star Stream is a cruel place, so of course it makes nothing easy on them. Just look at how many times Shin Yoosung and Lee Gilyoung bleed when using their skills. Or how Anna Croft and Yoo Joonghyuk were destroyed mentally by their repeated lifetimes - don't even get me started on Regression.

And Avatar is one of the skills that is the most developed. I've talked about how manifesting it seemingly splits you in two (I recommend reading this previous meta before this post) but what does that split entail, exactly? Here's my theories.

1. Author/Character divide.

If we take 1863rd Yoo Joonghyuk as an example, it's very clear cut. The black coat wearing YJH would be the 'character' who stays and dies and the white coat wearing YJH would be the 'author' who choses to write another story. 'Character' used here in the sense that Kim Dokja would look at them and be able to see/assign them this metaphysical trait, as he does for everyone else.

With Kim Dokja, it is basically easy too. 51% is the author, while 49% is the character, probably.

Han Sooyoung is more difficult. I think since Kim Dokja looks at 1863rd and says she is already a 'character', while 3rd stays a person the whole time IIRC, 3rd would be the 'author' self, even if this seems counterintuitive and like it should be the opposite - this makes the most sense with the second part of this theory.

Technically every author (or reader - someone with the knowledge of the narrative) becomes a 'character' (i.e forgets everything) at some point as per Star Stream rules, but this has not yet happened to Han Sooyoung of the 3rd round.

Still, it's not a perfect fit. Both Han Sooyoungs write novels and neither Kim Dokja does (not that writing is 100% necessary to be an 'Author', since YJH is one and barely writes anything until the epilogue) But it's still an interesting connection to explore.

Onto the second part.

2. Does the divide into two...actually work long term, because it doesn't seem to, based on the evidence we have?

First, let's look at 49% Kim Dokja. Perhaps Kimcom would have accepted him as the real Kim Dokja, like they do with Han Sooyoung, if he didn't ACT like a wet paper towel. The detoriation in mental faculties is very apparent and jarring and soon he falls apart physically too. This doesn't happen to 3rd Han Sooyoung, who is also an avatar, so what gives?

Well, it might not happen to 3rd but definitely did to 1863rd Han Sooyoung.

A 'probability storm is gnawing at her memories' and there's physical effects too. She says this has been happening for a while. Even though she has found a way of slowing down the effects it clearly doesn't fix the issue and eventually, despite her resistance, she might have become like 49% Kim Dokja.

(Maybe that's why she was so ready to leave her companions after the scenarios were over. If rereading stuff helps, perhaps that's also why she kept a diary of her round that 3rd YJH eventually got? Just spitballing, this isn't part of the theory.)

She names two possible causes to this detorriation - exessive use of the Avatar skill or Ways of Survival. 'Ways of Survival' probably refers to the Star Stream rule that once you reach the end of your knowledge you forget you were an author and become a 'character', which 1863 justifiably doesn't want to happen. Later, Kim Dokja comments on her 'status as a character' too, so it is related to that.

With 'overuse of Avatar' she could be refering to the way she makes thousands of them in her mind, but if we look at 49% Kim Dokja and the way their sympthoms match pretty closely, it's likely also the fact that another her - the main body/'author' - is running around in another worldline.

So for these two it checks out that one of the halves is always unstable.

With 1863rd Yoo Joonghyuk, well, it's hard to tell how it would have gone, since black coat YJH dies almost immediately. But the very fact that his avatar didn't even make it a couple minutes is also pretty telling.

As previously stated, nothing is stopping a skill from being harmful for the user. So maybe, one half of the initial avatar pair gets the short end of the stick and ends up slowly disintegrating. That's the basics of this theory.

Technically 51% Kim Dokja disintegrates into the Star Stream too but it is by a different mechanism, unrelated to the Avatar skill. First, he overconsumes probablility and shrinks into a child - this happens to Secretive Plotter too, it's just a thing.

Then, he loses his memories and if Kimcom hadn't interviewed would have become the same exact child that SP takes away in the subway, so that was just the time loop asserting itself. Like alt-1863rd YJH losing his memories when regressing to the 3rd round, or 1863 Han Sooyoung going dormant in Young Han Sooyoung's mind on the day the scenarios start. (Each of these are the looping points of the universe for yhk.)

But something about the way 1863rd Han Sooyoung in those 13 years sheds pieces of her story to create TWSA is very reminiscient of how 51% Kim Dokja disintegrates into the Star Stream on that subway. So perhaps there is some kind of connection there too.

[bellevillenaty]

An explanation to the main loop in ORV

- Beware of spoilers of the novel's epilogue -

I come to explain in the simplest possible way the loop that happens in ORV for those who want a more concise and less "philosophical" answer of the whole thing. But I must say that ORV, in general, is drawn to the philosophical side of human existence and that mainly revolves around its protagonists, because this is the story of Kim Dokja and a few other people, so don't expect a precise reason why things are the way they are.

With that out of the way, I'll explain mainly the three "main existences" in ORV which are: Secretive Plotter, tls123 and the Most Oldest Dream (not in this particular order) and how they are connected

[[….Oh, you sad, pitiful child.]]

[[Oh, hear ye, my dear god. I have endured a truly lengthy period of time just to meet you, but….]]

[[You are this universe’s most powerless existence, aren’t you.]]

...

[[….Is that why you needed us? This is a very cruel request for help, indeed.]]

...

[[You couldn’t even control your own imagination, is that it?]]

Chapter 515.

Some might consider that the Universe, or at least the entire tragedy of TWS, begins with the existence of the Most Oldest Dream because of this single sentence uttered by the 999th Uriel.

A child who had suffered years of abuse, neglect, and terrible trauma made a fictional story come true. That child dreamed to escape his own reality and forced himself into fiction to do so. By repeatedly saying "I am Yoo Jonghyuk," Kim Dokja gradually brought that man's story to life. But how did this child gain such power? How could this little child be the "Creator"?

...However, This story already existed and Kim Dokja just read it somewhere. So, if not the dreamer, who is the true creator of this universe?

At this point, many people who read ORV, just like the 999th gang and Secretive Plotter, are confused by the loop created by Han Sooyoung from 1863th turn, also known as the tls123.

The perpetuation of cause and effect "begins" in the 1863th turn, but also doesn't.

“Is this the price of the Outer World Covenant that you received? In exchange for killing Yoo Jonghyuk, you will get the power to make your own world?”

Kim Dokja to the 1863th Han Sooyoung - Chapter 295.

To recap, Han Sooyoung makes an Outer World Covenant with Secretive Plotter on the third turn and, like Kim Dokja, is taken to the 1863rd to kill Yoo Joonghyuk. However, unlike Kim Dokja, only one of Han Sooyoung's avatars is sent there, with the other one continuing to exist on the third turn.

Han Sooyoung's idea of "killing" Yoo Joonghyuk of that turn was to put him in deep slumber for eternity and thus create a new story out of the original story (out of Three Ways to Survive in a Ruined World) without him.

This implies that not only will she be able to push the boundaries of the original story that the protagonist himself failed to pass and go beyond the Final Wall, but she will also gain the power to create a brand new world. Perhaps when making the Outer World Covenant, Secretive Plotter had no idea of the details as contracts made within that Universe can have multiple interpretations and can be easily manipulated, even unintentionally.

Her ability also includes writing the Three Ways to Survive that Kim Dokja read and, with that, the combination of her power and Kim Dokja's dream allowed them to turn fiction into reality.

But, again, how did tls123 experience a story that was supossibly created just after her own existence? Yoo Joonghyuk's life already existed for Han Sooyoung to write about it, so she cannot be the creator.

Plus, if it weren't for her meeting Kim Dokja in the 1863th turn and the desire to see him survive, Han Sooyoung wouldn't have written TWS in the first place and would simply have continued her story beyond the 1863th turn.

“Something felt off to me about this world.”

It was my first time hearing such a shrewd tone of voice coming from him.

��One day, I suddenly came into existence in this world.”

0th Yoo Joonghyuk to Demon King of Salvation - Chapter 525

A conveniently-crafted life, a series of adversities created solely to become a tragedy later. This quote about Yoo Joonghyuk could explain his whole character, at least in the reader's mind.

After all, what is the reason for the existence of this character. Who is Yoo Joonghyuk? This question was on Yoo Joonghyuk's mind from the 0th turn all the way to the Secretive Plotter.

His life happened out of nowhere, and also, out of nowhere, thrown into the tragedies of a novel. On his first time in the scenarios, an unknown being helped him immensely using it’s strange knowledge about everything.

And after that, Yoo Joonghyuk felt that his life had been completely taken care of by someone else. As a final request, he wished to learn the truth about this world and himself.

But he was also curious about the existence of the being who had assisted him, and as a result, Yoo Joonghyuk regressed.

My interpretation

⸢The night sky was reflected in Yu Jung-Hyeok’s eyes.⸥

As if he was a child wondering about his origins, Yu Jung-Hyeok estimated where in the sky the [Wall] might be and extended his hand towards it.

He’d become the ‘Secretive Plotter’ someday, and…

….And at the same time, also become the 1864th turn’s Yu Jung-Hyeok that I knew.

Chapter 525.

For me there is a loop within a loop. Yes, Yoo Hoonghyuk would become Secretive Plotter and he would also become 1864th turn's Yu Jung-Hyeok, but not the ones we know.

Because, at the end of the day, they're both people from different universes. The Secretive Plotter is no longer a character within a novel for thousands of years, the fact that he has the power to travel to other turns and, above all, change many things from these turns (Outer World Covenant with 999th Yoo joonghyuk, and other Outer World Covenant with Han Soyooung and Kim Dokja) already shows that Yoo joonghyuk's will is what changes everything.

Yoo joonghyuk is the most powerful being.

He makes the decision to become a Regressor. Because he is a person who came from nothing and became everything.

He becomes a protagonist in an author's story, and he becomes a protagonist in a reader's story. Is there anyone more powerful than a protagonist?

Is there anyone more powerful than a protagonist who regress?

Yoo Joonghyuk is a real person, who became a legend, and finally became a protagonist. The loop occurred first with Yoo Joonghyuk himself and then spreading to those around him.

There is a dialogue between the Secretive Plotter and Yoo Joonghyuk from 14864th in which the Secretive Plotter says the following thing:

[…]

[[Did you know? There was this young boy in the front-most subway car that always died during every regression turn.]]

That question came out of nowhere. Yu Jung-Hyeok naturally recalled the events of the subway train. The very first scenario, the very first encounter with Hell that he had to experience every single time.

However, Yu Jung-Hyeok didn’t know anything about such a boy. Because, there were simply too many people who died in that manner back then.

[[While regressing several times, I tried to prevent his death, but it was impossible.]]

“…..”

[[He was really a young boy. Younger even than Yi Gil-Yeong. However, even such a child had to ‘prove his credentials’. For all of the 1863 lives, that child couldn’t even put up a proper fight and had to die. He died, and died, and died over and over again.]]

Chapter 458.

There's a theory that this boy was the Most Oldest Dream, however why would the supposed "God" of this world be dead in every regression that the Secretive Plotter faces on, and more importantly, why didn't our own Yoo Joonghyuk know about him?

There is a chance that such a boy will only appear because that is how the 1863th Yoo Joonghyuk wants it. Because the Secretive Plotter wanted it.

Secretive Plotter's greatest desire was to find the ‘creator’ of his tragic life and kill him.

It is strange, yes. But it is worth mentioning that our own Yoo Joonghyuk is someone who is in a new story created by himself and therefore he does not know this boy.

Remember? Our Yoo Joonghyuk is someone who has fled the novel story and is no longer a protagonist. The 1864’s turn Yoo Joonghyuk is no longer a character.

He escaped the barriers of TWS wanting to live that life shown by Kim Dokja. Living that turn that seemed perfect and so he did. From his own free will, he regresses and is now living that life.

As Yoo Joonghyuk had wished, he unwittingly erased his memory of all of his past lives and started a brand new story. And we all know that the Regressor Yoo Joonghyuk's life begins with the third round, but now, with Kim Dokja by his side, just as he wanted.

Unlike the Secretive Plotter that always wanted to find and kill The Most Oldest Dream, our Yoo Joonghyuk's wish was to find someone in particularly and fight alongside him. (Thus, the 0th turn Yoo Joonghyuk who Dokja thinks is the one he knew and our own Yoo Joonghyuk from 1864th turn. Both choose to regress for this reason).

The timeline will only move according to Yoo Joonghyuk's will (mostly), which is why the loop thing is so confusing when it comes to the other two.

Without Yoo Joonghyuk, neither Kim Dokja nor the Three Ways to Survive story would be possible.

As one of Kim Dokja's very first statments about Yoo Joonghyuk is:

"The first way to survive this ruined world is this man."

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I think I lost my hand here and I still have A LOT to say about, and I haven't even mentioned the Dokkaebi King or the Winny King yet and what they meant to this whole thing.

Did you guys have any opinions on this take? That’s my interpretation and maybe in the future I update this on a re-read or when I come with new ideias.

Because in the ORV story itself it is said that if you read it again, a new perspective is created.

(I also post this on Reddit)

[libzarzar]

Still don't get that "one-bone-spine" stuff...

[evercelle]

a story that can't be obtained again

[currently-not-studying]

Kim Dokja trying to kill his kid self is such a brutal scene. ORV is full of scenes that can break your heart but this close to the end this scene just... it just hits you. And this poor child, alone and left behind, witnessing an older version of himself only to be hated by him.

Imagine suddenly being visited by yourself from the future and that person seems to hate you, to want you gone. All the pain of trying to push through, to survive till it gets better must have been useless if the future your despises you so much

It's also a genius twist - people talk about taking care of your inner child. Of course Kim Dokja would try to kill it. He almost wouldn't be himself if he didn't. I just hope when all is finished he has time to actually come to care for it

[ririban]

You know, I kinda think that Kim Dokja had actually recognized Yoo Joonghyuk as the Punisher, if not at the beginning then at least later on, but he just… convinced himself that the two couldn’t possibly be the same. Because he considers the notion of Yoo Joonghyuk becoming a girl to be something that’s impossible. We see that early on when he met Kim Namwoon in the Underworld in chapter 113:

The Delusional Demon Kim Namwoon reflecting was as impossible as Yoo Joonghyuk becoming a girl.

Of course, Kim Namwoon was confirmed to be telling the truth about reflecting on himself right away (which was a really good foreshadowing for the Punisher, lol), but Kim Dokja still has a hard time believing it because it’s just something he considers to not be possible. And he puts Yoo Joonghyuk becoming a girl at the same level. That’s how impossible it is to him. Later on, he even says this in chapter 251:

A strange feeling entered my heart. Perhaps? I had a thought but it wasn't possible. It was impossible for such a thing to come true, no matter how I thought about it.

This is right after Aileen told him that the Punisher had disappeared at the same time Yoo Joonghyuk had departed with him. While he did momentarily consider the notion of the Punisher and Yoo Joonghyuk being the same being, he dismissed it as he was still convinced that it’s impossible. And this is at a point when not only has his favorite novel become reality, but he also knows that his male ex-boss had gotten pregnant and given birth. And even in the midst of all that, even with everything he’s seen possible under the Star Stream, the idea of Yoo Joonghyuk becoming a girl is still inconceivable to him.

Now that we have seen just how deeply convinced Kim Dokja is that Yoo Joonghyuk and the Punisher cannot be the same, let’s have a look at something else. Namely, Yoo Sangah’s POV in chapter 267:

A dazzling aura burst from Yoo Joonghyuk's body. Soft hair poured down like a waterfall while his large size became a smaller and sleeker body. He took the form that allowed him to practice the ultimate Breaking the Sky Swordsmanship. Yoo Sangah stared at the scene from behind and couldn't help opening her mouth. “…Yoo Joonghyuk-ssi?”

Yoo Joonghyuk slowly turned back, his long hair cut off by the Black Heavenly Demon Sword. The lines of the face had changed but it was clearly Yoo Joonghyuk. No, it was even more than before. Yoo Joonghyuk's gaze stayed on Kim Dokja's face for a moment.

Yoo Joonghyuk transformed into his female form during the 73rd Demon Realm’s demon king selection and Yoo Sangah witnessed the scene. The lines of the face had changed but it was clearly Yoo Joonghyuk—even in his female form, he is recognisably still Yoo Joonghyuk. Sure, early on the people at the now Yoo Joonghyuk - Kim Dokja industrial complex didn’t clock the Punisher as female Yoo Joonghyuk either, but they also weren’t too familiar with his looks at that point. That’s not the case with Yoo Sangah, and definitely not the case with Kim Dokja. Another point to note is how it’s mentioned that Yoo Joonghyuk has a smaller body in this form—a different skeletal structure, so to speak.

Now finally, there’s this bit in chapter 269 when Kim Dokja carries the dying Yoo Joonghyuk away from Surya and the other constellations:

Yoo Joonghyuk was barely breathing. The weight of his body was lighter than usual. He had suffered such severe pain that even the skeleton of his body seemed changed.

The bit I want to focus on here is “even the skeleton of his body seemed changed”. As mentioned, Yoo Joonghyuk has a smaller skeleton in his female form. So he’s a girl at this point. The main difference in his appearance at this point compared to the Punisher who Kim Dokja saw previously is that Yoo Joonghyuk cut his hair. And Kim Dokja recognised him. Even if he hadn’t actually subconsciously figured out who the mysterious Punisher was prior to this, he was definitely able to recognise Yoo Joonghyuk in his female form at this moment.

So the main conclusions here are that Yoo Joonghyuk is very much recognizable in his female form and that Kim Dokja is capable of recognizing him simply with a haircut. So I personally believe that Kim Dokja was fully capable of knowing that Yoo Joonghyuk = the Punisher, but he was just so adamant about Yoo Joonghyuk turning into a girl to be something completely impossible that he made himself believe that the two were different people.

[tls12lessthan3]

oh han sooyoung was neglected as a child and she has a oral fixation and shes sullen and pessimistic and sarcastic huh. oh she has symbolism ridden dreams huh. oh she has a power based on a splitting of conciousnesses huh. singshong i see the freudian influence ive read the theory you cannot hide from me.

[chai-en-kaadhale]

so hear me out (and this is meant as a crack/conspiracy theory so dont ACTUALLY hear me out)

ykh when you write a character you tend to pull at least some aspect of them from yourself or something youve experienced (at least for a point of reference)

almost like a fragment of yourself goes into said character

and ykh han sooyoung wrote the entirety of twsa and 'in-universe' orv. including kim dokja.

[macaronijail06]

KDJ brush theory

[a-cup-of-coffee-and-the-moon]

"The birth of the Reader must be at the cost of the death of the Author."

han sooyoung of the 1863rd round "dying" right after finishing twsa, and kdj, the reader, being "reborn" again and again after that as twsa comes to life. yjh being the author of his own story with how desperate he was to live the perfect round kdj created, developing the avatar skill and one half of him dying. lsy, who wrote a book to save dokja but failed, almost dying. kdj dying, disintegrating into fragments after writing the perfect ending he wanted for twsa. us, the readers being born as a result of his death. the death of the author being a given for the birth of a reader.

[orphiclovers]

its actually VERY STRANGE that the 'you need me for the 46th scenerio' line actually works out for kdj. like that may be the single worst thing you could say to freshly regressed, 3rd round yoo joonghyuk. during the last round a prophet betrayed him during the 46th scenerio, made him a slave, caused his whole family to die, and lead to his presumably violent death, which happened LIKE AN HOUR AGO. you're invoking that image to make him trust you?? HAN SOOYOUNG YOU TOO??????? AND THEN YOO JOONGHYUK DOES???????

[meiloorunn]

ok no spoilers but i’ve been playing in stars and time for a while now and im losing my mind but it’s also the best thing i’ve read/played in a long time. i feel like im reading twsa. like kim dokja is this how you lived for 10 years? i’ve been thinking by about this game so much only in the past two weeks.

[libzarzar]

I imagined SecretPlotter so often with face "why the fck are you so stupid" to Dokja i can't.

Still like my idea that he could be Dokja from the future, returned for fixing his story to the right direction or change something

Gosh I miss my first try of first 20 chapters if only I can remember more thoughts from that time :(

[redsyourhood]

the way i've been sitting here in thought about a jaytim orv au... LIKE idk man ive been debating roles because i know jason as kdj is the most fitting because he is literally reader of all time and also the dying bit... but red hood!jason as yjh would be huge

on the other hand, tim could be kdj in the office worker sense and also with the fact he grew up mostly alone and such but tim as yjh role could also be pretty fun all things considered...

i'll probs think on it more hmm

[currently-not-studying]

I love the ending of ORV for many reasons. One of them is that the world is still ruined, rebuilding yes, but the things that happened happened. Even when the whole group regressed they: a. didn't achieve the ending they wanted b. The apocalypse still happened c. They came back to their own timeline. The ending cements what I think is one of the main themes: You can't go forward by going back. Nostalgia will trap you. The whole world is still in front of you if you want to reach out. It may be ruined but it's yours to take care of

[freyadragonlord]

[This reader is crying over ORV again]