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mashedcontroller · 1 year

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I'm feeling spicy, time to list everything I think BH outclassed 03 on. And by that, prepare yourself for the most backhanded, hyper specific or wildly vague, and strings-attached compliments you've heard in your fucking life. But actually, the reason I'm doing this is because I think 03 is better than BH in every way that matters. The majority of common points people give BH over 03 typically come down to attempts to make subjective taste sound objective since a lot of shit is really just a difference in priorities and/or genre rather than an objective flaw in the other show.

And, to be clear, 03 is the better show. It has a really strong thematic core and just says a lot of shit that I rarely see other stuff have the gall to say. 03 tackles heavy topics and tackles them well. It left me with a lot to think about, even years after my first viewing. It's a political piece of art that remains relevant 20 years after the fact. On some levels, it was designed to do this. 03 is a character drama that deconstructs a lot of the elements that make up the shonen genre, and it also very clearly had something to say. 03 has very few weak points and has some of the strongest moments I've seen from any piece of media that I've interacted with. I think a lot of its bad reputation comes from people failing to engage with the show on its own terms. I can only speculate on what's going through other people's heads, but expecting it to act as supplementary material for BH is a fundamentally wrong assumption to make about the show. These two shows are trying to accomplish very different things, so judging 03 on its ability to be BH is a boldfaced stupid lens to view the show through.

BH, however, is still a well-made show. Like, I'm more than happy to shit on it, but BH is by no means a bad anime. It's just not as ambitious as people claim it to be. And if it really is one of the best things Shonun has to offer, then that says pretty mediocre things about the genre imo. It's far from a bad show. I think it accomplishes the role of "fun action series" really well, but it also has gaping flaws the moment you decide to engage with the work critically. That's not necessarily an issue that I'll take with its fanbase. The show's got a lot of elements that make it good for cultivating one. Stuff like large casts, likeable characters, emphasizing its worldbuilding, prioritizing action over character work, etc. are all traits that are great for cultivating fandom, and they're all traits that BH has that 03 revokes. But yeah, BH does fall apart once you look at it critically. My biggest issues with it come down to the fact that the show baits you into thinking that it's deeper than it actually is. So, I'll take the bait and look for the deeper stuff and then find nothing, which is where my negative perception of the show comes from, which isn't helped by how common it is for people to take the bait without really looking.

So, yeah, in short, I have a mountain of good things to say about 03. It's an incredible piece of art with so much shit to look into. In my opinion, you're doing the show a disservice to watch it and not put serious analytical thought into what you're consuming. Meanwhile I have a lot of mixed opinions about BH. It's a great show to watch, it's just a terrible show to consume critically. This isn't even me calling people who prefer BH dumb or anything. The show's are just so fundamentally different from one-another that your preference truly does just come down to a mix of personal tastes and how you prefer to interact with media, especially if you're a more casual viewer of either/both shows. The part that makes me angry is how disrespected 03 is in the majority of FMA circles.

The animation and sound design of Roy's snap is really fucking good in BH.

While 03 may have an overall better art direction and visuals than BH, I do really like how juicy the BH animators and sound designers made Roy's fire attack. The fire itself is just so fucking juicy and satisfying. The BH team did a really good job at making that attack iconic. There's no "but actually" here. The BH team just fucking nailed this one aspect.

In general, BH has better special effects than 03. This is absolutely a difference in available technology at the time each show was animated. And while I do have respect for special effects animation; it's often the difference between animations looking really stiff vs getting across their intended atmospheres, especially in the realm of video games. Using a human body as an analogy, the special effects are more like the hair than the skin, fat, muscle, nerves, or bones. Both important but somewhat expendable.

BH's alchemy is much more logically consistent than 03's.

So, there are a lot of reasons for this difference. The two main ones are the BH and 03 can barely if even be considered the same genre of anime. BH is a fun fights-heavy action series with some intrigue plot, while 03 is a really critical deconstruction the genre BH embraces that's more of a character drama with a heavily knit thematic core than anything else.

And their commitments to their genres translate to each show's relationship with alchemy. In 03, Alchemy's rules are much more metaphoric than literal. Equivalent Exchange is the shit because it's representative of the philosophy that Edward clings to; that life is fundamentally fair, that there is some universal justification for everything that happens. And 03 is about tearing that belief into itty bitty pieces. In fact, we learn that Equivalent Exchange isn't even true. Everything about Alchemy in 03 is bound by the magic's metaphorical meaning. Thus, when it comes to fights, characters really just need to be able to loosely justify how their alchemy functions for the audience to go "oh ok." And, in 03, alchemy is fundamentally powered by taking the life force of something and using that energy to do something else. So, you get stuff like the ability to extract alchemical energy from plants in order to amplify your alchemy much later, Edward being able to turn his automail into a gun, Dante's alchemic dragon thing, Scar's arm being the Philosopher's Stone, etc. The point is that you're sort of meant to accept that "yeah thats a thing that can happen." In other words, the fights exist purely for spectacle and the logic behind them is low priority at best. So, the way 03 frames it's combat is that it has to establish rules that exist within their own space and work with those rules. So, it can't circumvent stuff like "Roy can't use his gloves if they're wet" because there's no reason to and giving a talk about how H2O has Oxygen in it would have been horribly distracting in the one scene where Roy does get fucking soaked. Especially since him being crafty in a fight is sold by him just using Havoc's matches + Armstrongs rocks to make frag bombs. Tldr, the way 03 is structured allows if not flat out encourages characters to bullshit during fights. I think the fast and loose usage of alchemy's principles in the earlier parts of the show also make the later parts of the show, where those principals turn out to be false, feel more believable.

Meanwhile, BH's alchemy is operating on a much more literal framework, so the writing has more room and necessity for creative and engaging combat sequences. In a way, the fights in BH are puzzles and alchemy is the tools the characters are given to solve those puzzles, so the fights become engaging because you want to see how the characters solve the puzzles. It's very gamey. That said, I do have to say that I dislike how the homunculi are fit into this system. Their lose condition is having their stones exhausted, which just translates into "they have more HP." Which is very bullshit. The homunculi in BH die when the story tells them to, at least, that's how their lose condition makes it feel.

Both shows heavily rely on the usage of gimmicks to make their fights interesting. For example, Roy uses exclusively fire, which he creates by snapping. Like, I really like how Roy's combat gimmick gets explored in this fight specifically.

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I like how Ed ducks into a crowd in an attempt to dissuade him, and Roy's like "you think I care about collateral damage lmao." I like how Ed thinks he won the fight by slicing Roy's glove, but then Roy just ruins his day by revealing that he has two hands and therefore another glove. I really like how Roy's not taking this very seriously and Ed only wins because of Roy getting a flashback. This fight is just an excellent display of character for both of them and I love it.

Anyways, there are a lot of other character gimmicks. Honestly, 03 is so much better with its character gimmicks during fights than BH is. Like, I could list a ton of cool moments where the character gimmicks get played with. And part of how it does this is that every character plays by their own rules. No character will ever break their own rules, but the universal rules governing what is and isn't acceptable for a fight isn't very consistent. This does fit into 03s themes about how there is no universal truth. But yeah, that's how 03 structures its fights and why characters will sometimes just blatantly ignore the laws of alchemy.

Anyways, in BH, the rules are much less person-by-person and are more like "Alchemists can do XYZ," "Homunculi can do ABC," "Alkahestrists can do UWV," "Chimeras can do RST," etc. So, everyone has similar rules that they have to play by. Which also makes it so much more jarring when someone blatantly breaks those rules. Like, when Edward gets impaled and uses alchemy to not die, it's super jarring because that breaks the laws of human frailty and it doesn't really make sense. It's even worse when Edward fucks with Pride's Stone. Compare that to some of the blatant bullshitting in 03, like where Edward uses concrete to turn his broken automail into a gun. He shouldn't be able to decide when the shots are fired and where's the ammo coming from? But part of the reason it isn't jarring is because him turning his automail into a gun isn't a big deal or even particularly important to the scene he does that in. Or take bullshitting that is more relevant, like Alphonse performing a successful human transmutation. At this point, it's been clearly established that Alchemy's laws aren't true. So, Alphonse breaking them doesn't break audience suspense. Instead, the fundamental logic behind it actually working is tied to the story's central themes.

But yeah, BH's alchemy is a bit more logically consistent than 03's, but there's a very good reason for 03's alchemy to have some logical inconsistencies, which results in BH being much worse at breaking its own rules than 03 is.

A lot of the characters are just easier to get behind and digest in BH.

The entire point of 03 is that these characters are nazis and morally grey as fuck. Meanwhile, the characters in BH are primarily meant to be fun characters that you could comfortably fantasize about being or being friends with. The characters in BH are much simpler than in 03 and the show tends to gloss over their war crimes. Even when it addresses them, there's a billion asterisks and variations of "they're still the good guys." Compared to 03, where everyone is just messy and fucked up.

For example, BH Roy is easier to root for than 03 Roy, but that's because BH Roy is a fundamentally different type of character than 03 Roy. BH Roy is firmly a protagonist while with 03 Roy, he's much more antagonistic and complex. He doesn't solidly fit into the categorization of protagonist or antagonist because he's a bit of both.

And to be clear, I'm not calling the characters in BH simplistic in a derogatory way. A major benefit to simplicity is that you know who to root for and don't have to do a ton of heavy thinking to enjoy the story. That said, I don't think this style of character is necessarily appropriate for a story where the majority of the protagonists committed racial genocide and serve in the military for a fascist dictatorship. BH's characterization would've been a lot better if the story wasn't also trying to cover ridiculously heavy topics.

I've been using Roy as my go-to example since he's the only character to be one of my favorites in both shows, but I think the character who benefits the most from this point is Izumi. In BH, she's iconic. She's a slapstick oriented character who's just a joy to have on screen. In 03, her character writing gives me a lot of mixed messages. She's still very slap stick, but it's just weird in 03 since a lot of similar stuff gets unpacked, but Izumi being outright physically abusive to the Elrics at times just isn't. She's also much softer in 03; most characters are. And I'm mostly just left confused on how to feel about her. She has some great scenes, especially with Wrath, but the character feels a bit disjointed. In BH, she really benefits from being a nonparticipant in Ishval. The writing doesn't have to worry about her being sympathetic in spite of her committing genocide, so she gets to be divorced from the massive fuck up that was that section of the story.

BH has a larger cast than 03. Also, a lot of BH exclusive characters are more likeable than the 03 exclusive characters.

There's a lot of things to unpack here.

So, first thing that's kinda an obvious point is that BH prioritizes making its characters easily likeable to the detriment of its larger themes, 03 makes its characters likeable in service of those themes. So, it's a lot easier to get behind BH Mustang than 03 Mustang because Mustang's warcrimes just aren't that important in BH while they're the most important part of the character in 03. A lot of a character's likeability in BH hinges on the audience's ability to simply ignore the Ishval subplot, which was already a poorly handled subplot. While in 03, their likeability is intentionally contrasted with their war crimes to make a point. That's the primary reason why the characters in BH are more likeable than in 03.

And this also extends to the casts that are either version exclusive or unrecognizable between the two. Kimbly is a perfect example. In BH, he's designed primarily as a fun and bombastic antagonist who blows shit up because it's fun. They also made him extremely fashionable. Meanwhile, in 03 he's genuinely fucked up and views the lives of people as little more than tools to use to further his own goals, which is made interesting by Kimbly not being a top dog (like most villains running with that mindset are). He's at the bottom of the food chain and yet he still thrives under that mindset. BH Kimbly is the more fun character, but that's because BH Kimbly and 03 Kimbly are fundamentally different types of antagonist.

A lot of this comes down to tone. 03 is a much more somber show than BH. Unlike BH, it takes the premise of "child soldier works for a fascist government that partook in genocide a few years back because he wants to fix a mistake that made him and his brother permanently disabled" as a sign that the story is meant to be dark and a little fucked up. Meanwhile, BH tends to gloss over the fucked up shit in favor of selling the power-fantasy aspect of the story. This just results in BH's characters being a lot more fun. The surface level shit is the only thing that really matters to them when looking at BH since the deeper shit is simply shit and not really worth calling attention to.

The cast sizes also exist to further both show's individual goals. BH being about action and badass people being badass benefits from a larger cast because you get to see more flavors of badassery. It lets fights cycle between different styles of combat, which helps keep things interesting. 03 is a character drama. This benefits from having a smaller cast because it allows the show to spend more time unpacking a handful of characters.

There are a lot more badass female characters in BH compared to 03

I'll give BH a "you did the bare minimum" award for being an action show with female characters who are not just eye candy. That doesn't make the show revolutionary. It just says bad things about the genre that this isn't considered the bare minimum. But yeah, in both shows, most of the female characters are subordinate to their male peers. Hawkeye is defined as Roy's henchman. Winry is defined as Ed's love interest/childhood friend, Izumi is defined as Ed's mentor. In some aspects, this is fine. Like, the main characters are Edward and Alphonse, they don't need to draw attention away from them in favor of their own bullshit. But how badass a character is doesn't exactly translate into whether they're feminist.

Like, again, the reason you see more badass female characters in BH than 03 is the same reason you see more badass characters in BH than 03; BH is an action show, 03 is a character drama with some amount of action on the side. They're both guilty of employing sexist tropes. BH tends mix those tropes with badassery, while 03 tends to mix those tropes with character nuance. Doesn't change the existence of the tropes. It's sort of just something that you gotta accept about either show. That doesn't mean that its female characters don't have good moments in either show. Just that they're working from a sexist baseline. Neither show is particularly feminist, but they're also far from the worst offenders out there.

There are a few characters where I prefer their BH incarnations over their 03 versions.

The reason someone might prefer one version's character over another is a bit more nuanced than just which character was written better. The vast majority of overlapping characters fulfill different narrative niches in each story. For example, comparing 03 Lust and BH Lust has always felt disingenuous to me because while it's true that 03 Lust is the more compelling character, a major reason for that fact is that BH Lust was never designed with being compelling in mind. A more apt comparison would be 03 Lust to BH Greed, as those two characters do share the same niche of being an antagonist that makes the audience question the nature of the homunculi and eventually splits off from them. I'd also say that BH Lust and 03 Greed fulfill similar narrative niches as being a minor antagonist that establishes exactly what the main villains are all about and who's death is used as a tool by the authors to reveal exactly what the protagonist slaying them is all about. That's why BH Lust's death and 03 Greed's Deaths are both pointed to as highlighting points in their respective series. They both execute on their niches quite well.

This also accounts for the primary reason why someone may like a character in one show but dislike them in another. BH Mustang fulfills the niche of a secondary protagonist. In 03, he fulfills the role of a pseudo-antagonist / morally ambiguous major character. I happen to really like both versions of Mustang, but it's for very different reasons. In BH, I just think he's funny and has a lot of good banter. That's more or less exactly what he's meant to accomplish there. You're supposed to go "haha funny" and/or "haha awesome" with this guy. BH Mustang falls apart when you critically analyze him because the Ishval plot was mishandled, but his surface level traits are so good that I can just be like "I saw nothing." Meanwhile, 03 Mustang is a character who you sort of have to engage with critically to get the most out of. He's a complicated character and his relationship with the audience isn't a static variable. And there's merit to both approaches of character writing. There's as much value to a character where it's not worth overanalyzing them as there is to a character who doesn't really come into their own until you pull out the tweezers.

So, in case anyone's curious, which characters do I prefer their BH incarnations to over their 03 incarnations? Well, I prefer Barry the Chopper and Izumi Curtis in BH vs their 03 counterparts. Like I said, there's a lot more nuance than "this character was written better in one anime than the other" when regarding personal preferences. So, the reason I prefer BH Izumi over 03 Izumi is that I thought BH Izumi was funny and cool while I just got a lot of mixed messages about 03 Izumi. So, in this case, I think BH Izumi fulfilled her narrative purpose really well, while I have much more mixed opinions on 03 Izumi. As for Barry, it's a similar case where I thought he was really funny in BH, while I think he fell short as a more serious antagonist in 03. In Izumi's case, the failings I have for her in 03 are that I don't think her treatment of the Elrics is put under the same scrutiny that every other character is given. Like, in BH, her being physically violent towards them is played off for comedy. It's the same case in 03, but it doesn't work as well in this context because 03 is the show that turned the short jokes into an important metaphor, so it's really weird that Izumi's slapstick wasn't given the same treatment. And I found that really off-putting. Meanwhile, my main issue with BH Izumi is that the stuff around her failed human transmutation was extremely underexplored, which doesn't stick out as much as the slapstick issue in 03 because Izumi is ultimately a minor character in BH while she takes the mantle of a more major character in 03. Though, personal bias is a huge factor in why I prefer BH Izumi over 03 Izumi, since her specific plot about being unable to bear children just happens to be so alien to my personal life, as someone who's both never had a failed pregnancy, has zero interest in bearing children, and would happily make a magic "goodbye pussy" circle. It's not that this type of conflict can't still be compelling to someone like me, but it's going to require more narrative work than a conflict that I can more closely relate to. Hence, why it's personal bias. Meanwhile, in the case of Barry the Chopper, my preference towards BH's version is a fair bit less subjectively biased. He just fits really awkwardly into the role 03 tries to assign him. The issue is that he jumps back and forth between trying to be fucked up and scary to being a comedic antagonist, which just undermines both aspects of him.

Like, the antagonist for this scene, should end up looking completely alien to the version of Barry the Chopper seen in BH, but that version of Barry is played relatively similar to BH Barry in Lab 5, resulting in the 03 Barry being inconsistent.

And for every character where I prefer their BH version, there are plenty more characters where I prefer their 03 versions. And a lot of that will come down to personal preference.

Armstrong's a great example of a character who on a surface level isn't that far off between 03 and BH, but he just works so much better in 03 than in BH because of the different character niches he fulfills in both shows. In 03, he's a minor character, while in BH, he's a major character. So, in 03, he's not particularly developed. He's mainly a funny guy who has a few shots where he's sad over Ishbal, and then he ends up supporting Mustang in overthrowing the government, which he mostly does in a comedic fashion. That's a pretty apt description for both his 03 and BH incarnations, but I only take issue with his performance in BH. The reason for this is that he's a more important character in BH, so I expect the show to disclose more information about him, which doesn't happen. Like, in BH, I want to know more about how his refusal to fight in Ishval affected him, his relationships, his status, etc. But BH only addresses that through off-handed scenes where Olivier calls him a pussy, which don't really go anywhere. Meanwhile, in 03, first of all, Armstrong did kill people in Ishbal, so the massive question of "how did his time in Ishbal affect him" can be supplemented by other characters confronting similar questions. Thus, the minor amounts of information we are given about Armstrong alongside information we see from other characters who were soldiers in Ishbal like Marcoh and Mustang are more than enough to get across the general picture. Secondly, we actually do get hints at how Armstrong's goofier attitude and kinder disposition impact his career. Mainly during the raid in Dublith where Envy disguised as Bradly says "this is why you never get a promotion." As a minor character in 03, he's allowed to have the nuances of his character be heavily carried by implication. But I can't really give a major character like BH Armstrong that same affordance, especially when those hints are barely given. It doesn't help that Armstrong's backstory in BH very heavily leaned into the story's insistence that the soldiers didn't mean it when they slaughtered Ishval.

Edward is more of a Badass in BH than 03

Ngl, I'm cheating a little with this point because it's like "I agree with this point but I also couldn't give less of a shit about it." Which, that response is, at least, 85% personal preference coming into the equation. I'm not going to say that badass characters never resonate with me, but it's really uncommon because the badass character has to be someone I personally can somewhat relate to, which is a rare flavor of character in popular media. My own experiences with the two characters are that I find BH Edward to be kinda boring as a character while 03 Edward is the most interesting character in the show (as he should be given everything I said about what 03 is trying to accomplish). But it's a lot of the same stuff my general thesis has been; BH Ed is more badass than 03 Ed because BH Ed was written to be a badass while 03 Ed was written to be a compelling character.

The actual reason I wanted to bring up this point is because it's a common enough point I've seen people make when comparing the two shows and I find this point rather bothersome. Maybe that's because I take issue with consistently seeing a rather mediocre character being placed on a pedestal over one of the best protagonists I've ever seen. But it's also more the explanations that bug me than anything. Like, I cannot take anyone seriously who uses calling a character "whiny" as a critique. Maybe it's because you're looking for an action hero who can shrug off shit that would normally be traumatizing, in which case, you're in the wrong genre. Maybe you take some issue with characters being emotional in a vulnerable sort of way. 03 features a lot of characters displaying emotions in a dysfunctional sort of way. Characters are allowed to hurt in a way that doesn't fuel anything other than more hurt. Characters will repress their feelings and that will bite them in the ass. Characters are allowed to be depressed, not in a "waiting for the heroic do shit speech" sort of way but in the genuine "existing is painful, no energy, depression" kinda way.

And this is the point that rubs me the wrong way about the majority of complaints thrown at 03 Ed. It's not that wallowing in your own misery makes for good entertainment, but it's an important part of 03's themes and its point. I can also, just, relate more to this unproductive sense of pain. I have depression, that is what depression looks and feels like. It's unproductive, it's painful, it can't be fixed by someone just walking up to you and giving a dramatic speech. And that's why the way 03 expresses hurt resonates with me in a way that BH's just doesn't. It's low octane, and that's the point. That's what makes it good.

BH's Ending is a lot more Straight-Forwards than 03's Ending

I think that's the best way I can put it without saying something I flat out disagree with. BH, in general, is much more straight-forwards than 03, and the endings of both show embody that. BH is, ultimately, a fun show where the heroes have to take a bunch of twists and turns to come out victorious. Meanwhile, 03 is an extremely messy show about characters being put in fucked up situations and no one coming out of it unscathed. It's about decisions that will haunt you for the rest of your life. It's about situations where the right answer is the one you least want to accept. It's a show about how the people will create doctrines to shield themselves from the truth. And it's a show about human selfishness. The endings of both shows are exactly how their shows should have ended. BH was never going to have a bad ending and 03 was never going to have a completely satisfactory ending. If 03 had a happy ending, the show would've been worse off for it.

So, yeah, BH's ending is a lot more straight-forward. It's a happy ending where everyone gets what they want more or less. Narrative knots are tied. All that shit. I personally thought the ending was nothing special. Like, it's another happy ending. I can't fault people for enjoying it for that, but it's not the type of thing that's going to stand out in my brain.

Meanwhile, 03's ending does a lot of nontraditional things. There's arguably multiple major plot twists that come out of nowhere and are more of a "fuck you" to the audience than anything else. The protagonists end the series arguably off worse than where they started. Wrath and Gluttony are still alive and haven't had their arcs concluded in any satisfying way. There's no guarantee that the setting or the characters in it will continue to be okay after the series ends. And that's okay. The ending of 03 is very messy because it's meant to be messy because the point that the show is making is that the world is neither straightforward nor fair, which is why you gotta keep doing the best you can to improve it. That's why the ending is uplifting. Even though Edward's in arguably the worst position he's been in throughout the series, having literally lost everything, he hasn't given up, so you, the viewer, shouldn't give up either. Life doesn't end until it ends, so you should live.

And yeah, the ways that 03's and BH's ending function are fundamentally different. I can totally see why one ending would pass someone by. Like I already said, I didn't feel anything watching BH's ending but 03's ending felt very significant to me, and I could totally understand the inverse being true for some people.

Conclusion

People give BH too much credit and shit too much on 03. Like, 03 is just the better show. It's just that 03 isn't designed to be a comfortable watch in the same way BH is. You're meant to leave BH feeling good, you're meant to leave 03 with a lot to think about. If 03 makes you uncomfortable, that's a feature, not a bug. Many of the fan advertised strengths and weaknesses of each show is really just differences in genre.

And while I've repeatedly conveyed that 03 is the better show, that's not because BH is bad; 03 is just really fucking good. It's like comparing Elden Ring to Dark Souls 1; sure they're made by the same developers and have a lot of surface level similarities, but they're so fundamentally different experiences that viewing them through the same lens isn't fair to either. There are a lot of things that BH does well, and there are a lot of things that 03 does well. But it's not fair to say "BH does X thing better than 03 therefore it's better" (or the occasions where the inverse claim is made) because both shows are trying to paint very different pictures, to the point where I don't consider them to be parts of the same genre. There may be similar components, but the way those components are used is very different from one-another. Comparing the two shows makes for interesting analysis, but it's bad for the purposes of actually criticizing either show.

#fma03 #fmab #fma analysis #fma2003 #fullmetal alchemist #fma #fmab critical #that's right i'm using all the tags this time #mostly because i've put a ridiculous amount of time writing this so i'd like it to be seen by other ppl #and yeah responses are good even you don't have much to say I love seeing other ppl's opinions about shit

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aeternallis · 2 months

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Your recent post reminded me of what has been bothering me for a while about the portrayal of the Kimchay dynamic in the fandom. I love reading fic about these two, but in most fics nowadays I cannot even recognize the characters I came to know and love when I watched the show. It’s like they bear the name of Kim and Chay but act nothing like them😅 People are of course allowed to write characters any way they want (after all, it’s not that serious, fandom is supposed to be fun:D), but I think this is the first time I’m in a fandom where the fanon characterization has overthrown the canon characterization so completely. The prevalence of submissive!Kim and Dom!Chay just throws me off, when the characters are nothing like that in the show (actually it’s quite the opposite lol). When the show aired and until around mid-2023 the majority of fic etc. portrayed Kimchay pretty accurately with only the odd mischaracterizatiok here and there, but after that? It’s like the fandom collectively decided to throw canon out the window XD.

These days I’m just living by the ”don’t like,don’t read” philosophy, which unfortunately means I have to clock out of 80% of Kimchay fic lol. I see something like ”Kim whimpered” and am like ”nope, he would not” and then yeet myself out:D

Hello, thank you for your message!

Meh. The idea of fanon characterization overthrowing canon though isn’t unique to the KPTS fandom, yknow? I feel like most fandoms face that inevitability as we get further away from the date of original release. Having said that however, I would actually disagree with you, nonnie. XD Politely, of course!

It’s just that…I’m not necessarily sure fanon characterization has overthrown canon completely, or if it’s more along the lines that those who like the fanon characterization just tend to be a lot louder, especially on this site. It’s harder to discern people’s true opinions on here, not necessarily for lack of communication, but more along the lines of iffy communication due to knee-jerk reactions, imo. And again, that’s not just the KPTS / Kimchay fandom in general, I feel like that’s how it is for most fandoms that have some community over here that’s still alive and kicking.

In any fandom, there will always be people who take certain opinions a lot more personally over others due to their own emotional attachments over the fictional characters in question, and that just inevitably makes communication (as in, actual discussion and engagement)…not worth it. At least, not to me, haha!

Fandom is supposed to be fun, but let's be real nonnie, for a lot of people, it's more than just fun: for a lot of us, it's an escape from our day-to-day lives, a place to engage freely in a piece of media that we otherwise wouldn't have in RL.

Furthermore, canon vs fanon in terms of what that means to an English-speaking majority fandom community and as it relates to a non-western piece of media is…honestly, all kinds of landmines to talk about, if you know what I mean. A lot (not all, of course, but a significant chunk of them) of fanon specific to KPTS and Kimchay are due to ignorance of the cultural context, as well as certain ideas gaining traction, because of the western lens it’s viewed through.

Not to mention, the cringe habit of mixing up actors and their characters, but that’s a different conversation all together.

At the end of the day, I say be the change you want to be, nonnie~ If you don’t like fanon, say it loud and proud! I’m ngl, I certainly don’t!

All opinions in regards to any and all fictional characters ought to exist equally on this hellsite, and that should be the end of it! :3

#kpts #kinnporsche the series #kimchay #anon ask #let's put this under a read note #it's better that way

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horizon-verizon · 7 months

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TG be like “we don’t care about bloodlines, nobody won the war, but Aemond’s bastard founded House Whent, the Stark children are Aemond’s descendants via Catelyn’s mother, and Daenaera should be replaced by Jaehaera and become the Blackfyres’ ancestor.”

You don’t get to spew endless vitriol about children born outside of marriage and write how they shouldn’t have any rights, and then claim that Jaehaera should be Daemon Blackfyre’s grandmother.

You don’t get to say the most misogynistic, heinous and disgusting things about women having sex outside marriage and call them “sluts”, “whores”, “spoiled” and then claim that Jaehaera should be Elaena’s and Daena’s mother.

And imagine if Jaehaera was Daena’s mother, Daena must DEEPLY despise her if she admired Daemon and named her son after the man who traumatized her mother, ordered the murder of her twin brother, and drove Daena’s grandmother to madness & suicide. (To be clear, I FULLY support Blood & Cheese, they were just anti-monarchists working class men trying to feed their children #team smallfolk).

Absolutely yes to all of this. Unless it was dry sarcasm, I don't know about the very last sentence. Pretty sure it was, but just in case for others: Lower classed men don't have to sell out their morals or integrity by murdering under-10s (not that 10 and ups aren't kids but we should understand what I mean) and to feed their families. If they are at war, the same holds true that killing children is a heinous act.

Even if they are the psychologically degraded and fearful, Unsullied would never/most likely never choose to participate in much of the violence they have been forced into doing--while being dehumanized since literal childhood--such things if their very lives and body parts weren't on the line from the moment they were socially objectified through chattel slavery. The Unsullied are a part of a systematic institution of politics and official kidnappings of children for the express purpose of protecting slavers' interests and the slavers broke them down into being on their fear instinct for years, again, since childhood. They were forced to kill animals they raised themselves until they killed actual slave infants or be subjected to inhumane murders themselves.

Blood was a freaking goldcloak who beat a woman to death. Overall, Blood and Cheese were not chattel slaves. They were not under terrible duress to accept this mission, and they went out of their ways to become assassins. Essentially, they had some level of choice and they decided to use non-discriminating murder for hire as their profession, or make it a part of their "skill set".

Anyway, the double standards many in both the asoiaf and hotd fandoms towards some motivations of villains versus morally grey or morally positive characters is astounding. This series was made to be read by the American public, and I mean though I'm sure GRRM doesn't care if black/Hindi/trans people read and enjoy his books (might even be grateful for it for his liberal views) and like most places in the world where Europeans fucked people shit up to placed racial and EU class hierarchies/ideologies make for idiot bigots with strong double standards. and tbh, GRRM sorta still encourages it by giving up his material to incompetent, bigoted, condescending writers, not really going in through his story in a more feminist and anti-SA lens, AND not clearing shit up against racists, misogynists, etc strategically.

#asoiaf asks to me #blood and cheese #fire and blood #hotd fandom #fandom critical

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loveotomization · 8 months

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For the past 10 years of my life as a Mikan enjoyer, I've been daydreaming about writing a series of essays examining Mikan's fall scenes through a lens of both satire and in-universe character motivation. Finally got off my butt and did it.

Presenting:

Mikan vs. Fanservice

Part 1: A Doyalist look at satire of fanservice in SDR2

(warning: contains images of anime girls in skimpy clothes)

This is a part of my larger Mikan fansite, Sad Nurse.

Essay can also be read under the cut!

(Please don't go picking a fight with me over cartoon people. I'm old and tired. I probably won't respond.)

I’d like to start off by saying that analysis will deal almost exclusively with Mikan’s portrayal in the SDR2 game, rather than the DR3 anime or any manga adaptation. Being a different medium, and produced a few years after the game, I believe that the writing and art could at times have different intentions than the games.

I personally find the writing choices for Mikan’s character absolutely fascinating, to the point that it invites both Doyalist and Watsonian exploration of what makes her function. (simply put, Kodaka’s writing and Mikan’s in-universe motivations work in concert, rather than at odds)

I’m writing this series of essays in response to the constant, not to mention surprising, confusion I’ve seen surrounding Mikan’s character over the past ten years. Mikan is a very unique character, and her motivations are difficult to find perfectly mirrored in another existing character (not to say that I have consumed every piece of media ever, but I have yet to run across another character like her). Either way, I’m hoping to challenge some incorrect views or at the very least have the chance to say my piece after so many years.

Now, of course, I am not Kodaka nor have I met him personally. I have, however, been in the fandom for longer than the average DR fan, not to mention being somewhat older, so I may have different experiences with media than some other fans.

Now that I have all of that out of way, I’d like to begin with what I personally believe was Kodaka’s primary intention in creating the scenes where Mikan falls over-

Satire.

Dictionary.com defines satire as:

‘The use of humor, irony, exaggeration, or ridicule to expose and criticize people's stupidity or vices, particularly in the context of contemporary politics and other topical issues.’

So just what is the ‘stupidity or vice’ that Kodaka is satirizing?

Fanservice.

(and perhaps the dojikko archetype, but we’ll visit that in another article)

I feel as if the term fanservice has become skewed as of late, as terms often do with passing decades. Back in the early days of English-speaking online anime fandom, fanservice was most often used to mean a scene or piece of artwork that was literally intended to be sexually appealing to the (usually straight male) viewer. At the same time, these scenes would do nothing to further the plot or add to the characterization of the woman in the scene.

These are images of Faye from Cowboy Bebop. I choose her because she exists in a sci-fi action canon that contains a well-written story and characters, as opposed to a pure fanservice series that is only created to showcase women’s bodies for an assumed male gaze.

While it can be argued that the way Faye dresses can make a statement about her personality, it is also clear to the viewer that her outfit is intended to be sexy not just in-universe, but for the viewer as well.

Let’s consider these pictures.

Faye’s top leaves little to the imagination, showing much of her cleavage, which is of course something that many female-attracted people find to be a turn on. You’ll also notice that her booty shorts are unzipped in front, inches from her privates. While I am neutral on the topic of fanservice, characterization and story-wise, there is no reason for the creators to dress her this revealing other than for viewers' pleasure. The adjustments to her costume in the live action prove that she can still be a strong and attractive woman without letting it all hang out.

The same goes for her cocktail dress. There is no vital in-universe need for jiggle physics.

(Disclaimer: This is not a critique of Cowboy Bebop. I think it’s a brilliant show. These images are here solely to juxtapose true fanservice with Mikan’s suggestive pose scenes)

Now, let’s take a look at some characters you’re more familiar with. These are from a collab with a mobile game called Sengoku… something. I’ve never heard of it, and I’m not sure what the actual characters from it look like. That said, let’s look at Mikan and Chiaki in these images.

These images are stand-alone, rather than being scenes from DR canon. In that case, they say nothing about the personality of characters in question, or the story they are from. These images serve no other purpose than to titillate the viewer. The outfits are clearly drawn in ways specifically to highlight their chests and other areas.

So what does this have to do with Mikan’s scenes in SDR2?

I firmly believe that Kodaka is doing three things with the following scenes: satirizing fanservice, satirizing the dojikko character type, and showing quite a bit of Mikan’s character at the same time. I find this pretty clever writing, and the reason I felt compelled to write this series of essays. We know that Kodaka likes satire and parody. Please just take a look at the entire DR series. Even the major themes underlying the games as a whole, such as reality TV culture and the pressures placed on Japanese youth, are largely satire. So why wouldn't smaller moments of satire be present in these same games as well?

These are the scenes in which Mikan falls over on purpose in order to diffuse tense moments, and shift the focus back onto herself by using her sexuality (I’ll go into this topic in depth at another time). As I said, these scenes show us a great deal about the personality of the character, making them immediately more valuable than simple fanservice scenes.

Take a look at her pose, and how she is dressed. Compare it to the ninja costumes above. They show quite a bit of skin, and the poses highlight their breasts and thighs.

In SDR2, Mikan is fully clothed in a reasonably well covering outfit (I once saw someone on Tumblr say that her skirt was drawn too short, and sometimes I feel like we’re one step away from visible ankles becoming scandalous again lol). Her chest is covered. There is the tiniest little peep of plain white panties in one of these images, but that’s about it. I can assure you that these scenes are not very sexy to the average female-attracted person. They are over the top, and clearly present a parody of the sort of scene truly meant to be sexy. Now, of course, literally anything can be a turn on to someone out there, but I’m talking about on average, of course.

Does this mean that Kodaka is against fanservice? I’m sure that’s not the case. However, it is possible to satirize things that you enjoy as well. In fact, I encourage creatives to critique tropes that they personally enjoy. I personally think that it’s a good way to challenge your own point of view and to not take yourself too seriously.

Satire can be shocking, or bring on feelings of discomfort. It is not always intended to be funny. Spending ten years of my life in the DR fandom, it’s always been strange to me that depictions of sexuality--even when they show very little or are used to further characterization--are more shocking to the general viewer base than the actual murders themselves, but that is likely a larger discussion for another day. Back to my point however, is that even if you do feel disgust or discomfort at Mikan’s scenes, they do elicit an emotion in the viewer, which is a large part of the point of art in the first place. In short, you have every right to feel discomfort at these scenes, but I do think that understanding the meaning and value behind them can help deepen enjoyment of the game, or at the very least of Mikan’s character.

Upcoming- A look at the dojikko archetype, followed by a Watsonian look into Mikan’s own motivations in the conscious use of her sexuality.

#mikan tsumiki #super danganronpa 2 #danganronpa

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littledreamling · 2 years

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Hob Gadling was born just in time for the rise of Humanism, which was a deeply flawed but nonetheless very intellectual movement to better understand Christianity and society through the lens of classical works and cultures (mainly Ancient Greek and Rome), as well as Christian Humanism, which likewise called for reform from within the Catholic church but was equally intellectual in basis. By the 1500’s, Hob would probably have received some sort of Humanist education, especially as a knight. He would’ve not only been literate in English but probably Latin, Greek, and Hebrew. He would’ve studied antiquity (Ancient Greek and Roman texts, architecture, statues, art, etc) and had a good handle on history (the view of history at the time would’ve been pretty skewed, though, which could explain his interest in history later in life, if only to better understand the truth instead of what was fed to him by educators of the time). As wealthy as he was, he would’ve been fairly highly educated, mostly through the Catholic church, and well-traveled to boot.

On a slightly tangential note: by the 1500’s, England was also deep into it’s own Reformation. Henry VIII died in 1547 and left a string of religiously divided children to rule in his wake. By the time 1589 rolls around, Catholicism had been banned by Edward VI, then unbanned by Edward’s sister Mary, then banned once more by Elizabeth I. His relationship with royalty and religion would be deeply impacted by the political climate. The fact that he hosted Queen Elizabeth I, a decidedly protestant monarch, in 1588 doesn’t necessarily mean that he’s not Catholic; since the religious climate changed so often during the sixteenth century, many simply swore oaths publicly and practiced privately, no matter which side of the line they were on. In fact, I wouldn’t be surprised if Hob had had a priest hole in his house (look them up, they’re pretty interesting!) even during the Queen’s visit.

While (at least stereotypically) most people in fandom are decidedly atheist, agnostic, or some other form of non-christian, we can’t ignore the deep impacts that religion would’ve had on Hob’s life or the likelihood that he retained his religion long into his immortality (and still might in some fashion!) because he was raised in a deeply religious society and faith is a deeply rooted and often intrinsic aspect of peoples’ lives

#this is just rambling #there was no point to this #except to further flesh out Hob’s character and to spread knowledge about the Renaissance #make Hob religious! make Hob well-educated!#even in past meetings!#let him cling to the things that would’ve been constants in his life because Dream isn’t the only one!#his faith would’ve been a huge support in his tumultuous life #hob gadling #hob gadling thoughts and rambles #the sandman #sandman netflix #dream of the endless #morpheus #dreamling

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zeldurz · 1 year

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Being a house cat means a lot of time to ponder. I am familiar with your fic as it relates to Pellaeon/Thrawn, henceforth, referred to as Prawn. Lately, I have noticed that you have shifted away from this pairing into unfamiliar territory for me, mainly Firmus Piett/Maximilian Veers & Tiaan Jerjerrod/Conan Antonio Motti. Since I am firmly ensconced in my tiny corner of the fandom, I had to ask around, who are these guys?

Now it’s time to ask you. Welcome to my little corner at the Asker’s Studio™️ (don’t mind the ferocious Mini-Panther🐈‍⬛)

Where I go in the fandoms is determined by where ‘my’ authors go, thus, I often find myself in unfamiliar territory. I got my start with Harry Potter, moved on to Gargoyles, enjoyed a long visit with Thrawn, and currently I happily reside in TNG. As person who merely comments, it’s easy to jump around, but as an author, I would think that it would be more complicated.

What made you decide to branch out to these new pairings/fandom? While they are still Star Wars, I view them far enough away from Thrawn to consider them a different fandom (as it is an enormous departure from the Thrawn universe to the Original Trilogy)

I admit that my only knowledge of your new pairings (newer to your fic) is what Wookeepedia tells me, and what more experienced fandom inhabitants add to that. It makes me want to go back to the OT and watch it through a different lens.

What is it that you would want new readers to know about these ancillary characters?

What characteristics do you admire or dislike about them?

Do you see any parallels to characters that you have written about in the past?

I am behind on my Fic reading, but know that I have been enormously entertained by your Whatever it Takes, and I hope to see additional updates sometime in the near future.

Ahhh thank you for having me back on Asker’s Studio, it’s always a pleasure to be here. I will put this under a cut to make everyone's life a little bit easier

I have indeed shifted my preferences into the adjacent world of OT Imperials, at least for the moment. While I can firmly say that this is all the wonderful @alexx-dax’s fault – since I started following him on tumblr and was left with many similar questions to those you have posed to me: who are these men? How can I tell them apart? Why should I even care? – the question of “why” still remains, and for that, my answer is two-fold.

I would say that the jump from Thrawn to the OT Imps is not as far as it looks on the surface – much of the internal politics and settings aboard a Star Destroyer in Thrawn’s time (be it in Canon before the Battle at Lothal or in Legends aboard the Chimaera) remain the same. This makes it both easier to write (as I already have an idea of The Empire and how it operates) and easier to integrate characters that are still very near and dear to my heart – in fact, while I have yet to make full use of it in a fic, the fact that Grand Admiral Thrawn was the one that recommended a then Corporal Veers to Darth Vader for his Death Squadron has a lot of room for potential. I also think it helps that the Imps have a much less wide-reaching fandom – there’s a very small, very enthusiastic community that has made me feel very welcome as I undertake my studies into Background Men, and I really appreciate that.

Without going into too much detail, I would also be remiss if I did not touch on the issue of Writer Burnout and how that has contributed to my step away from writing Thrawn. I have the curse of non-functioning executives (aka ADHD/autism), and writing something that isn’t the topic du jour is a painful and tedious process for me (astute readers will also recognize this is why I rarely do outlines/planning and why I almost never edit/proofread my fics before posting them). For every fic that reaches AO3, there are 8-10 more that are half finished on my google drive, and I tend to lose creative steam on things very, very quickly. Between a bunch of stuff IRL and the rise of people discussing Thrawn and his characterization in fandom spaces(1), I’m having a very hard time getting my ‘voice’ for Thrawn back (it doesn’t help that my largest and most popular fic has spiraled into something much, much larger than I had originally planned, and I’m very much struggling to figure out how to tie it off in a satisfying way lol).

But back to these new guys. Who are they and why should you care?

First of all, if you wish to join me in my corner with my dolls, I would actually recommend watching the OT again but considering the perspectives of the Imps – in particular, Ken Colley’s portrayal of Piett in Empire Strikes back and Michael Pennington’s Jerjerrod in Return of the Jedi(2) give a lot of depth to the characters that we often just see as “bad guy henchmen”. People have written many things about these characters over the years (some of which I agree with and some of which I do not), but I always come back to Piett’s expression as he watches Admiral Ozzel choke to death beside him; these characters are Imperials, yes, but they are not all Tarkin or Palpatine – that is, they are not simply evil for the sake of being evil. Veteran Thrawn fans will know that writing from the perspective of the antagonists can be a lot of fun – and for my brand of fic (ie the hurt/comfort), there are a lot of Rebel Victories that bring pain that’s worth exploring (not unlike Bilbringi in the HTTE Trilogy).

I have spoken a lot about the Imperials as a collective, so now it’s time to get into the individuals. While I will touch a little bit on my favourite ships (Piett/Veers and Motti/Jerjerrod), I think that another fun part about writing these particular characters is that they work well in many different pairings, depending on the vibe you’re going for (I will spare you the chart, but I do have one). Anyway, without further ado and in no particular order, the incomplete summary of Imps:

Firmus Piett (ESB, ROTJ):

Piett is the character that got me hooked on the imperials in the first place – his “goddammit I’m just trying to do my job and not get murdered” energy combined with his otherness (in that unlike most other high-ranking officers, he is neither from a core world nor upper class). His days fighting in the Axxilian anti-pirate fleet only add to this vibe, and much of his characterization (that I go off of, anyway) centers around him being scrappy and resourceful – useful where other, snobbier officers might not be.

As with all things Fanfiction and particularly with the Imperials (as there is comparatively little material to work with), there will always be flavours of characters depending on who is writing them, but I enjoy Piett’s potential for a found family, along with his biting snark and ability to survive only on caf and spite.

Maximilian Veers (ESB):

Veers has the distinction of being in the Imperial Army, rather than the Navy, which automatically gives him a different flavour than the others. It’s my understanding that there’s a rivalry between the Army and the Navy, which lends itself well to a back and forth banter that is easily one of my favourite things in an Imp fic. Veers is also the strong and stoic character – he’s not intimidated by Vader, and he’s going to do his damn job, no matter what.

I’m a big sap for the “hard on the outside soft on the inside” trope, and Veers is perfect for this. He protects his Herd with a fierce loyalty, and is a proven competent leader, but he’s also the sort of guy who teases his partner and loves physical affection. Veers is a giant, blond puppy, and I love that about him. His vibe works especially well with Piett, since they have the whole "tol and smol"/Army-Navy/slowly opening up to one another vibe that I love.

Tiaan Jerjerrod (ROTJ):

Listed as a “cold technocrat” on every official description, Tiaan is another one of those characters that has many layers to him. He is the rich snob from the core, but he’s also an extremely competent engineer who was hand picked to handle some of the Empire’s biggest projects. He’s also comparatively young (a full fifteen years younger than Pellaeon, and ten years younger than Veers, if Wookieepedia is to be believed), and yet has made his way to the top of the top. Tiaan also has the distinction that (at least in the deleted scenes) we see him hesitate – even when given an order, he is conflicted about firing the Death Star II at Endor, given the number of Imperials still on the moon.

Tiaan is usually characterized as being neurotic and anxious – a sort of wet-cat energy that contrasts well with the competence he is known for. His background – a rich aristocrat coming from a long line of decorated Naval Officers from a conservative planet – only adds to this effect, and I’m a big fan of stories that explore how he navigates (or doesn’t) the enormous pressures he faces.

Conan Antonio Motti (ANH):

Loud, Obnoxious, and American, Motti stands out among the Joint Chiefs in the one scene he is in. He has the balls to challenge Vader, and the gusto to back it up – he’s also quite young, having risen to be commander of the DS-I in his early 30s (based on his actor’s age, Wookieepedia does not have a birthday for him). While there are scant few other canon appearances for him, it’s also worth noting that one of them is him writing a letter to HR regarding Vader’s Force Choke, and another is a passage from the Death Star Novel about how he works out in only a speed-strap juggling balls in heavy gravity.

Motti can be summed up as the “Go Big or Go Home” guy who is crass, loud, and gets in everyone’s face. He can be a lot of fun to read and write because he’s so obnoxious, and that makes him fun to include even if the story is primarily about someone else. He pairs well with Jerjerrod because they have similar backstories (young, wealthy) but wildly different personalities, although I have been enjoying the Motti-Thrawn friendship lately (that would give Pellaeon a migraine)

Overall, each of these characters (and Captain Lorth Needa, of course, everyone’s favourite Dad Friend and holder of the single brain cell) has a unique vibe that they bring to the table, and it’s fun to see how they interact with both each other and the Situations they find themselves in. I also find them to be very relatable – every author pours a little bit of their heart and soul into the characters they write, but for me personally, there is a lot I can draw from my own experiences (not unlike how I have written a very few very personal Thrawn fics).

With that being said, I do struggle sometimes to hit the right notes and strike a balance between “canon”, “fanon” and the story I want to tell. While Thrawn has (for the most part) been consistently written and it is easy enough to see a through-line for his story, that is absolutely not the case here. There are many examples I could speak to (Needa as “ruthless”, Veers refusing prosthetics due to stigma or Jerjerrod “loving war”), but for the sake of brevity I will only touch on one: Piett as a schemer who sought to deliberately have Ozzel killed.

While this is… an interpretation of the source material (IE Empire Strikes Back) and has since been made canon by From Another Point of View, it disregards the intentions of Ken Colley in playing the character. He wanted Piett to come off as more relatable to the audience, to give depth to the Empire as more than just a faceless monolith, and I would argue that he is quite successful in doing so(3). Undermining this (and his backstory notes about being an underdog within the Empire) take away some of the aspects of his character that I really enjoy – but does it make my Piett OOC if he wouldn’t do something like that? Does it matter?

Anyway almost two thousand words and three footnotes, it’s very much time for me to wrap this up (as bad as I am at writing endings). Suffice it to say that I find the Imps to be an excellent sandbox with which to play in, and I appreciate both the time you’ve taken to ask me about them and the time it’s taken to read through this essay of sorts.

I’m hoping I’ll get back to Whatever it Takes sooner or later, but I would rather wait for inspiration to strike me than to keep beating my head against a metaphorical wall until an ending falls out. Until next time, thank you again for the ask and all the wonderful comments you have left for me 😊

(1)I should note that this isn’t targeted at any group in particular and isn’t meant to be a negative statement – just that the Thrawn fandom continues to grow, and with the upcoming Ashoka Show, there are a lot of people with a lot of different opinions about the character, and for someone who isn’t particularly adept at navigating the sea of fandom, it can be extremely overwhelming.

(2)If you are able to watch the deleted scenes from ROTJ, that’s even better – there are some excellent Jerjerrod scenes that did not make the final cut

(3)I do own two Piett action figures and haven’t read Another Point of View yet, so I could be a little bit biased

#my inbox

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captainofthetidesbreath · 2 years

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it's truly abysmal how shipping fandom has reduced the concept of compulsory heterosexuality / comphet (in all its complex, at times fraught, history as a political and theoretical concept) down to "a character I want to be in a femslash ship is not in a femslash ship"

the concept exists as a radical feminist, typically political lesbian and feminist separatist (more on that later), critique of real-world patriarchy and male power over women's sexuality, agency, creativity, freedom, and relationships in a way that prevents women from having fulfilling, enriching, and dynamic relationships with other women of all types for the purposes of isolating them and forcibly re-focusing their energy into controlling heterosexual relationships and reduces women solely to objects for male desire and power

compulsory heterosexuality also is actually not a fully accepted critique or lens, particularly in the way that it is applied and articulated within political theory, as it's been criticized for its generally rigid adherence to gender binary and conceptualization of strict gender roles and for its lack of intersection with individuals who function or identify outside of gender binary. it has also encountered criticism in how it articulates sexual orientation and politics through gender alone, and does not make a lot of room for other axes of sexual identity, politics, and other factors of identity.

it is also important to understand that the the concepts of "compulsory heterosexuality" and "heteronormativity" are actually somewhat different concepts discussing a similar area (different emphasis, different history, different political associations), and that the concept of compulsory heterosexuality is a core and critical tenet of the feminist separatist movement and political lesbianism, which urges that all women (even those who are not wlw) should and must choose to eschew all relationships with men in all contexts.

in that context, with the relationship of compulsory heterosexuality to feminist separatism and political lesbianism, it actually does worry me that many shipping fandoms who are fixated on this concept constantly say essentially "icb this woman is attracted to a man at all, it's comphet" bc there is a very real connection between this concept and the idea that all women should simply choose never to fuck men, that women have a political responsibility to excise men from all aspects of their lives, to view all men as their enemies, and that any woman with any relationship (of any type) with a man is complicit in her own oppression (which, I won't unpack here why this is horrific, bc this is too long as is and too concise articulation will be misconstrued, but it is Yikes, to put it lightly).

I do actually find it alarming how some shipping fandoms that constantly cry "comphet!" are consistently incredibly angry about the idea ANY woman will have a relationship with or be attracted to a man and believe that EVERY woman should choose to be a lesbian and eschew all relationships with men in the exact political pattern.

the concept of compulsory heterosexuality in queer and feminist spaces is actually very complex, and at times very fraught within the academic and political discourse, and it's actually really insane and in some measure alarming what shipping fandom is doing with it

#this is way longer than I wanted it to be but i found this in drafts #but anyway I do generally distrust any shipping subset that waves 'comphet!' around too much #and is obsessed with labeling every female character (including those shown to be attracted to men) as a lesbian #particularly those angry at the raw concept that women can be attracted to men (and claim she isn't REALLY) or erases her male friendships #because there is a......... sticky sticky sticky sticky history SPECIFICALLY with the relationship between comphet as a concept #and specific feminist political movements that are.... very much yikes

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esther-dot · 1 year

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Half Jonsa here! Thank you Esther for your lovely reply! I hope to follow your blog until TWOW comes out too.

Well, I won't take up too much of your time, but to elaborate on my position, I would say it's overall because I take much more of a Dune influence in reading ASOIAF's themes and character work. Much of the story feels like a response to Dune almost more than LOTR beyond aesthetics-- I would almost moreso say that GRRM's criticism of kingship is more rooted in Paul and Leto II's stories than anything to do with Aragorn. This is just to give you a bit more of a picture of my approach, rather than get into the nitty gritty. I also saw another anon on someone else's blog point out Paul's parallels with Dany (where, topical to the colonising of her story, is very much in line with Paul's manipulation of the Fremen-- so I think this is likely to be critical, just maybe not in the usual fashion of modern postcolonial readings) but I feel that Paul's journey parallels many, many of the cast in different ways. You can pretty much see Catelyn-Robb as a direct response to Jessica-Paul. (Again, on the Dany-Paul Dothraki-Fremen note, I do think GRRM is less successful at giving complexity to the Dothraki, but nevertheless I do think we are meant to view it through a critical lens of personality cult-- this is what I mean about it not being postcolonial, but using colonial and conqueror aesthetics for an investigation of power and personality).

I said I was going to not take up too much of your time... to put it short, I have a much darker reading of the series-- not grimdark, pain for the sake of pain, but I do think there is a real meditation on the meaning of hope in the presence of cynical reality (which is a reality I'm not so sure is realistic, but it's there). I don't totally agree with GRRM's storytelling ethos and I find the series more interesting to talk about because of peoples' response to it as opposed to an actual discrete storytelling unit.

When it comes to Jonsa itself-- there are plenty of writings on its Romantic influence (cappymightwrite, you're a star), and without TWOW it's hard to say, but I think that its potential for a torturous Gothic romance which doesn't end in marriage is too high on the books for me. I'm particularly thinking of Paul's inability to marry for love-- his political marriage with Irulan is what gives him the universe on a platter. I know, I know, it's not fair to Sansa and I hate it, and it's not fair to Jon either, but I don't think that's the story he's telling. I don't think it is fundamentally about fairness, but that sometimes there are poetic answers to fairness, and maybe some justification which comes after the fact in songs and stories. I really don't want to write a treatise in your inbox, but when I say 'half a Jonsa' really I am trying to describe I don't think it's endgame, and that a lot of the theories/ethos which goes along with it are not what I entirely agree with.

Which is to say that yes, I do think Bran as God Emperor like Leto II (despite magic being 'evil', or potentially amoral, in my books) is a real possibility. It happened in the show, sure, but they didn't fully investigate the ramifications (and the specific commentary GRRM has on kingship--- specifically feudalism-- and what it means to make it 'work' with the tools of the fantasy genre). I think powderpowderblue might recognise my message because I've sent one before about Bran separately (sorry powder). I think there is a deeper contrast between Dany's magic and Bran's magic--- what sort of power gives you the capacity to rule, and how that compromises your humanity, or equally doesn't-- with Bran's own response to Dany's nukes. Bran and Dany have the potential to be even bigger foils than Jon and Dany, honestly.

You're totally right that there's a lot of room for different people in the Jonsa fandom, and I would say that by in large Jonsas are the most interesting (I say this with some impartiality, just because ASOIAF is not my main obsession) because they entertain the most different perspectives, even when they become committed to certain theories here and there. I think where I personally feel a bit reserved about it is because I think ASOIAF is less grim than Redditors think it is (and they miss the mark thematically) but I think it's much more grim than Tumblr by in large thinks it is (which is where I think the 'dark' love story of Rhaegar/Lyanna really shows. It absolutely is not a simple matter. That the great love story of the series is tragic and motivated by self-absorbed and egotistical prophecy, and involves just a wolf girl dealt the fallout? That says something really major about the storytelling's beliefs. I also don't think that Jonsa can be a straightforward poetic redemption of this). I'm just speaking generally; I'm even including non-Jonsas here. As a demonstration, I don't think Brienne is the complete thesis statement-- I think she is a suggestive antithesis, but not ultimate synthesis. I see her 'No chance and no choice' quote used as justification for ASOIAF's ultimate resolution (that heroism will be outright rewarded even when it's costly), but I disagree. I think there's a reason it happens in AFFC and not the later books (and more specifically, that she has been tied to Jaime-- not for mere chaste/courtly romance (this is also why I don't think it will be consummated), not to disillusion her, but to create a more complicated thematic synthesis).

This really got too long. Please feel free to not reply in longform or not reply at all... very therapeutic for me though hahahahahha!!!!! <3 <3 <3

P.S. Don't worry I love Sansa and Jon, separately and together. Part of the argument for Jonsa, I feel, is that they're such strong, Romantic characters separately who can bring out the most interesting personality from each other-- to recontextualise their previous characterisation. Imo the literary incentive here is really clear.

Don't be scared! I always encourage people to offer their opinions even if they’re unpopular.

@cappymightwrite is wonderful! I love her Jon as a Byronic hero metas, and I've really enjoyed @powderpowderblue's thoughts too! It's hard to resist the urge to be reactionary / go to extremes because of the incentives in fandom to do so, but I really appreciate the nuanced takes.

I did not read Dune, but years ago I read Hebert's essay on writing it, Dune Genesis , and I remember feeling a lot of dread because I was definitely getting some ASOIAF-y vibes from his ideas.

I agree with this, "there is a real meditation on the meaning of hope in the presence of cynical reality" and I think that is why Sansa stands out so much to me. The contrast of her beliefs with the world that wants to crush them. Even at her most cynical, she still is herself, kind, compassionate, she's such a joy.

I completely agree about Dany and Bran being foils! I've either answered or lost in my drafts something about that. I kinda think Dany works as a foil to each of the Starks in a different way.

"I think it's much more grim than Tumblr by in large thinks it is" I think I agree here. I would have gone more with...steeped in a deep sadness. Its only natural to be drawn to conflict as a writer, that's what drives action/plot, but Martin is particularly drawn to it imo. The pain and grief he writes into our POVs...it's all very moving, makes the happy moments that much brighter, but I definitely get the impression that's what he's drawn to. That doesn't at all mean there aren't good endings in store for some of our favs, but I don't think he'll make anything easy.

"That the great love story of the series is tragic and motivated by self-absorbed and egotistical prophecy, and involves just a wolf girl dealt the fallout? That says something really major about the storytelling's beliefs. I also don't think that Jonsa can be a straightforward poetic redemption of this" -- So, this is what I've been going around in circles on. Each time I answer an ask about Rhaegar I get a handful more because we all hate him but we all disagree on what Martin is doing with him. I think how Martin wrote Cat and Ned, one of the few healthy romantic relationships we get, indicates the extent of his interest in conflict/pain, so it seems inevitable that every relationship --Jonsa too-- would have that. I do think we're due for a romance that is more reward than pain which makes me hope though.

There's so much about a Targ/Stark Jonsa kinda has to be part of that convo, and I've heard people suggest that Sansa, unlike her younger self and unlike Lyanna, may fall in love with Jon but this time she will resist it which is why she will escape tragedy in the end. I don't buy that, but there are multiple ways Jonsa could evolve the convo, so I certainly don't dismiss your view. I personally am not into tragic love stories, but once Martin gave an interview and said he was, so I take that into consideration.

Brienne is the complete thesis statement-- I think she is a suggestive antithesis, but not ultimate synthesis. I see her 'No chance and no choice' quote used as justification for ASOIAF's ultimate resolution (that heroism will be outright rewarded even when it's costly), but I disagree. I think there's a reason it happens in AFFC and not the later books (and more specifically, that she has been tied to Jaime-- not for mere chaste/courtly romance (this is also why I don't think it will be consummated), not to disillusion her, but to create a more complicated thematic synthesis --I'm gonna have to sit with this.

Part of the argument for Jonsa, I feel, is that they're such strong, Romantic characters separately who can bring out the most interesting personality from each other-- to recontextualise their previous characterisation. --Love that!

Thank you for taking the time to write all that, and I'm glad you found it therapeutic. Feel free to share more of your thoughts anytime! 💗

#dot chat #long post #asoiaf and dune

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mecachrome · 3 months

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loll thank u for confirming it to me re:kpoppie fan past!!! i think i remember it was you (?) who said aomething about landoscar coworkerisms and i was like EXACTLY! this is what makes them interesting to me. i get people who don’t really like 814 bc on the surface they are just teammates who have content together thus easier to ship but at the same time, that’s the beauty in them isn’t it <33 and lando’s comment about being contractually obligated to hang out together was Romance to me actually bc >coworkership.

alsooo once again i would just like 2 say i love your metas/analysis cause i think yours is such a fun pov to read from!! not sure if this is bcs of our commonality in fandom history but it’s truly like, a different perspective than if you were like on the 1d > f1 rpf pipeline or just a general sports rpf background. i’m not sure what makes kpop so unique in this ejduksdj maybe perhaps bcs we spend so much time dissecting idolsona and manufactured content or whatever 🙂 anyways! love your work and your gifs 💘💘💘 u are a godsend for the fandom!!

yesss anon coworkershipping is literally so important and real 2 me!!! ofc people are entitled to their own opinions and preferences and i will never force my silly little ships onto anyone but admittedly i am 100% the type of guy who thinks that sometimes Things that aren't romance are romance and sometimes Things that aren't sex are sex. so that's a me problem HKLSDFH

i think the ability to be self-aware about your coworkerisms and find humor in it or even show fondness for it is really sweet... like to me it's meaningful that oscar followed lando's career for so long and clearly rates him and just sincerely objectively LOVES being his teammate and is satisfied with that alone because again "i'll have you in whichever way you'll have me" is lesbianism to some. it's also interesting when they're regarded as a pr bait ship especially considering how much mclaren like... Don't bait them to us that much anymore and how simple and stripped bare the content they post nowadays is? i think there's just a general conflation of [shares hobbies off-track] + [likes each other as people] in that regard...

fandom history is definitely so interesting, i've been in 132402382834 fandoms so i reflect on this a lot !!! i got into hockey like 10 years ago so i think just wrt like, the sporting aspect of f1 then i view it through that lens primarily (and hockey is a sport that's a lot just like... less Sympathetic to individual athletes because it's very explicitly about systems which i think is why i'm less like. parasocially invested in flop careers halsdfh), but when it comes to the celebrity consumption and sheer global influence of f1 then there are genuinely a lot of parallels to k-pop, which adds an interesting dimension. the thing about many other sports/esports/etc. fandoms is that not all of them have the same tenuous 4th wall + measure of exclusivity that f1's genz marketability propels itself off, which i think is where this accusation of 1d/k-popification comes from because it's a less familiar space in quite a few sports. but there's a lot of nuance there of course...

so random but i actually had this discussion with someone earlier where i was like my "type" in k-pop is always pathetic gayboys with horrible personalities alsfdkhalksdfh but in sports i like really adjusted normie boring straightguys (my 2 favorite hockey players are also very much Polite Cats who have cute nicknames hehe :3c) so it's interesting how despite certain fandom similarities there are many cultural nuances that influence our investment.

also idk if you're familiar with bbb but i thought i'd share the hockey version my friend made of it :') it's all quite interesting to me because hockey is like, MUCH more accessible as a fandom product just because of how many players major sports leagues have and the fact that it's not as successful in north america as any other league save mls (lol) (actually idk if this is still true with messi we might fr be flops now), so you can spend $20 to go to a game in some markets and see your favorite player up close during warmups whereas that... is not possible in f1. there's just a lot of considerations for how personas are built up & managed and the space f1 occupies in that analysis !!!!!!!! but i don't want to talk your ear off too much aklsdfhldfh thank you so much for your kind words! 🥺💕

#ask

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blackswaneuroparedux · 2 years

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Anonymous asked: I know you’re steeped in the Tolkien lore and as a college professor teaching English Lit at an Ivy League I respect that and your Oxbridge credentials, if not your problematic politics (of which I am very much to the left of). I suspect you and I will disagree but I didn’t think Amazon’s Lord of the Rings: Rings of Power series wasn’t the complete failure the hysterical fandom made it out to be. It was faithful to Tolkien who was, in his own way, woke.

Calling Rings of Power a 'failure' is like calling the Titanic a 'small boating accident'.

Jesus wept.

I keep hearing the word ‘problematic’ freely thrown around like confetti, primarily from the American cultural left and increasingly used in Britain too. This or that is ‘problematic’. It could be anything from a piece of art, or a character in a story, or a sincere belief held, or most commonly when judging the past, not on its own terms, but through the lens of the present. It’s essentially a passive aggressive term to show off a smug superiority that they, and only they, know better. It’s patronising too of course.

So let me point out why I find your thoughts - should I say ‘problematic’? - illuminating.

I respect your intelligence but isn’t a university education more than just having credentials?

In my corporate work place I manage and work alongside people with the shiniest elite education credentials imaginable. They are all highly motivated individuals representing the cream of the cream of their countries. Yet as smart and clever as they are, they - like me, but not you of course - are prone to doing pretty silly things because they over-think or their cleverness trips them up. Intelligence is not the same as wisdom. This is another way of saying that having university credentials is like having your head as empty as a eunuch’s underpants.

Please, let’s agree to disagree on the politics because I suspect you haven’t really understood what I believe - if you did you might understand on many things we are not that far apart, even though we may very well differ on the premise of a problem. Contrary to what you might presume not everything in life has to be refracted through the lens of your American politics and culture for those of us who live outside of America ie the rest of the world.

Tolkien woke? Oh come now, you’re just teasing. No one versed in Tolkien’s literary works or his life really believes that. You should know better. No, wait. You’re an English Lit prof at an ivy league. That explains everything.

Remember what Tolkien wrote in one of his letters, “Affixing ‘labels’ to writers, living or dead, is an inept procedure, in any circumstances: a childish amusement of small minds: and very ‘deadening’, since at best it over emphasises what is common to a selected group of writers, and distracts attention from what is individual (and not classifiable) in each of them, and is the element that gives them life (if they have any).” We should respect the writer’s own words rather than twist them to fit into any literary fad of the day.

Hallowe’en is almost upon us but JRR Tolkien has already been turning in his grave at the abomination of this continued leftist American cultural colonisation of our English cultural and literary heritage.

Perhaps at a later time I shall address how problematic mistaken you are ideas are. Right now I don’t have the energy as I’m neck high in work. I will get back to you (DM me if I am a little tardy on this).

But in the mean time, may I recommend an excellent tumblr blog @middle-earth-mythopoeia for an indepth discussion of Tolkien’s Lord of the Rings lore - and even be open to real fan views on Rings of Power. It’s one of the best blogs I’ve come across on the lore of Tolkien’s Middle Earth. You should reach out to the fans there and have an honest exchange.

And more than that...

Odúlen gi nathad.**

I faer nîn *nínia *aden a-govedinc. Posto vae. Na lû e-govaded 'wîn.**

Thanks for your question.***

**Tolkien of course was inspired by Finnish to invent his Elvish language for LOTR. But Elvish is real. Yes, it’s real. They speak real Elvish in Elfdalian, Sweden. It’s originates from Old Norse. With the assistance of dedicated linguaphiles, the language has been kept alive for centuries in one of the most homogenous linguistic and cultural countries in the world. Elfdalian speaking communities have miraculously avoided assimilation into the wider Swedish culture, until recently, when mass media and migration have pushed the language to near extinction. Today, just under half the residents of Alvdalen - roughly 4000 people - speak Elfdalian, including a Norwegian cousin of mine married into that community.

***Because I’m British I suffer from the disease to apologise...for anything. But I apologise sincerely if my tone is a tad uncivil. It’s been a long week at work here in Dubai. I should edit my remarks but I’m just too tired, so instead may I appreciate your understanding.

#ask #question #lord of the rings #amazon #rings of power #tv series #television #arts #lore #tolkien #jrr tolkien #elvish #swedish #elvish is real

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dontbotherwiththepronunciation · 1 year

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Was there any responses on the Theon survey that made you feel differently about a certain headcanon, fandom trend or ship?

Thank you for your patience. It is uncommon for people to ask about my opinions but it brought a smile to my face, and your politeness only added to it.

To answer your question, sadly not, but there were still some developments on my perceptions.

Fandomwise I was mostly proven right over things I suspected in the past both in things I find uplifting and things that I find upsetting (TCKs and colonialism children in the Theon corner preferring Dany over Sansa and usually disliking the Theon/Stark ships, Robb Stark being a gift as the prevalent perception among throbb shippers, most people not caring about Jeyne Poole, thramsays being unhinged but very respectful and careful about people's boundaries) but there were a few things that had a positive reaction in me and maybe prepared me for changes.

I think I've made clear how I don't like engaging with Theon/Stark ships and sadly when it came to the squid prince and the steel skinned princess this didn't change at all, on the contrary, but when it came to the squid prince and the wolf-headed boy I was confronted with smaller subsets of the fandom that I felt could actually get me into it.

I used to be a lot more open about the later ship but as time passed it was ruined for me due to many personal vexations involving interpretation, (dismissal or vilification of) characters, themes and the constant use of show-scenes and quotes, but some of the responses from throbb people came very close to things I would theoretically enjoy in them as a ship (and as a closer characterisation of how I perceive Robb, clearly not a villain or an evil-doer but not someone I'd want to spend time with).

Nothing fully changed my mind, I didn't always agree with their reasoning and I am still sceptical because this was only a minority, but I think to some extent it made me more curious and, admittedly, less judgemental.

Here are some examples I am allowed to quote:

On Throbb as a ship, by throbb people

I only mildly dabble in shipping in asoiaf at all, however Throbb Is nice as when its done well It tends to have a lot of what I like (kidfic, canon divergences with some political element and happening around the early ACOK node, very specific hurt comfort dynamics, role reversals (enjoy Robb Is the one who had to experience Ramsay AUs even) exploration of the cultural/identity issues through conflicing loyalty etc . It rigorously has to be by people who love Theon better than Robb though

I'm someone where I will take whatever I can get tbh. All of the above. I do really enjoy stories where Robb is a darker character though, and relishes in the power he holds over Theon. Also just like playing with the theme of the Starks being wolves? And how the Ironborn were called like sea wolves by those in the riverlands and westerlands. It's very fun. I also do indulge in modern AUs where Theon is an unofficial member of the Starks. It's just very comfy. I like it less-so in canon fics because I think it very much writes off Ironborn culture in place of Northern culture. I am picky with them though because some of them are very much in the lane of "the Starks can do no wrong" and nope, the Starks can and have.

I am truly here for literally any Theon ship and they all appeal to me in different ways for different reasons. Robb and Theon - Personally I think it's really interesting how Robb is upheld as this very honourable gentleman-type but he never calls out Theon on his horrible treatment of women or other uncouth behaviour and it's suggested he actually kind of admires him for it? It gives me the impression that Robb lives vicariously through Theon a little bit and I'm fascinated by the idea of them being devoted to each other but also jealous of each other? We never see Robb's POV in the books but I think he's interesting to view through a lens of a young guy with an immense amount of pressure and responsibility on his shoulders (even before Ned dies he has the responsibility of being heir and the pressure to live up to the Stark name). I imagine that Theon is one of the few people Robb felt he could be himself around without any pressure to be respectable or honourable. He probably craves the relative freedom Theon has whole Theon longs for the status and respect that Robb has. It's an interesting dynamic! Also there's the fact that Robb is literally the only person who likes Theon and trusts him when no one else does which makes it even more heartbreaking when he betrays him.

On whether Robb Stark is a gift or not, by throbb people

No. Lol. I mean, the thing is, Robb isn’t really a terrible person or anything – book!Robb especially is young and inexperienced and genuinely seems to be trying his best in a situation that is understandably overwhelming. That said, he’s careless, self-righteous, over-privileged, emotionally manipulative, a bit vainglorious and sometimes extremely selfish, and has a tendency to do things like blame the easiest, most vulnerable (as well as the one most likely to forgive him) target for his own mistakes. He’s somewhat emotionally constipated and fairly low on empathy. He's very loyal to his family (but as we see with Sansa, it’s far from unconditional) and I think he does try to do right by people, especially those he cares about, overall. However, in the context of his relationship with Theon (where this seems to be most prominent as a Concept) he fails rather significantly and the relationship is not nonredeemable or anything, but definitely toxic.

I've only got the impression that he is a gift by reading bran's, Jon's and Arya's chapters not by theon's. In book 1 he is such an asshole to him in that bran chapter... It's more fanon I think to make Robb a gift specifically to Theon and I understand it, the show gave to us a closer relationship and many liked it and projected to Robb a caring attitude we wanted someone to have towards Theon, at least that's how it worked for me idk. Also the potential for romance, angst and tragedy by making them closer is just *chefs kiss is Robb a gift? yes is he one to Theon? they definitely have love between them but I don't think he is one to Theon.

Robb Stark as a character can really be anything you want him to be. I think only seeing him through other POV characters (especially his family) was a stroke of genius on George's part, just as we first meet Stannis in person through Maester Cressen, and later experience him through Davos' eyes (two people who love him deeply). Robb was a 16 year old dealing with some incredibly high stakes situations and a number of traumatic losses. He's mostly just tragic to me.

I still think Robb's relationships to the women in his life (Cat, Jeyne, Sansa, Arya and Dacey) are more interesting to me since they are usually explored by fandom in a more ambiguous and, in my opinion, more canon-compliant light, but yeah these made me reconsider my negative feelings about Throbb.

To some extent this also happened with Theyne, a ship I do ship but always felt weird about and sometimes had this stupid and prideful type of wish to differentiate myself from the shippers who engaged with it in a more "wholesome" manner. I came to see a lot more interest in dubious and less-positive takes on the dynamic in some of the responses and it was oddly relieving, it made me less conscious about my self-perceived discredit of the text when adding romantic connotations to Theon and Jeyne's canon dynamic (although they are somewhat present in the text too. ?????weird situationship of mutual victimhood and hellish non-consensual polycule with their torturer acting as matchmaker, third wheel and sicko lurking on the window)

[...] If it happens, it will be later down the line, probably during a potential recovery arc or even at the very end of the books. I would like to see how that plays out and I think Jeyne as his co-survivor of torture would probably be the most interesting person to play that out with because there is a common history that will remain a can of worms between them, but Jeyne seems to be (just like Kyra who came to Theon with the keys even though she didn't have to do that for her rapist!) a genuinely caring, empathetic and kind person who seems to have already bonded with Theon, seemingly knowing that he just like her did not participate willingly in her rape even though he had been compliant to his torturer's demands out of fear. And all that probably holds true even if he is still in survival mode of "I have saved Lady Arya (do not take on your actual name because that will get us both thrown back to the Boltons, this charade ain't over yet, please keep this charade up for your and my safety)". Jeyne has been badly maimed and (not only, but predominantly sexually) tortured herself, of course, so I suspect that the bond they both share will be fraught with fears and pain and ugly memories that migth feel more pressing than just memories (hello, PTSD), but i can see a way forward for both of them that I cannot see for either Jeyne and anyone else or Theon and anyone else (apart from familial bonds that Theon still has. Jeyne has no-one but Theon now, her parents are both dead and any other relatives haven't stepped up when Littlefinger sex trafficked her and Ramsay ended up repeatedly raping, maiming and psychologically torturing her). They will probably at first feel not great with each other, but I truly believe that they can help each other heal as far as possible or at least manage the aftermath of such severe torture of all kings. If he (Theon) does end up in some capacity in a romantic or sexual re-exploration of identity through a relationship of some sort, I suspect that Jeyne, who was co-tortured sexually alongside and through him (not that he was a willing participant, just someone trying to survive, doing the least harmful thing for both himself and Jeyne by partaking in being forced to rape her for Ramsay while thus becoming a victim of rape himself; apart from his former strongly insinuated sexual abuse and possible genital mutilation), might be the only person able and willing to even entertain the idea of a romantic and/or sexual connection to him, even though I think that her own state after all the sexual and other abuse means that that will be very, very far into the future. Both will probably feel safer not engaging in anything sexual for a long while, if ever, and as for romance, I think it'll probably take on a very fragile, small-gestures-of-care type of form that's more reminiscent of familial love and care rather than passionate. Both will have struggles expressing their minds, their wants and needs freely, both will be scared of physical touch probably, but then there's that image of Jeyne, half-dead herself, extending empathy to Theon and stroking his cheek telling him "you saved me", so there's that part of caring about someone already that seems like some glimmer of hope for both of them. If Theon makes it out alive through the books, I can see him ending up on the Iron Islands and her married to him for protection's sake (seeing as she's got no-one else in the world, and he has proven himself to care for her by saving her from Bolton Winterfell; while nobody else will care enough about her, or him or even be remotely positive towards him to facilitate some other marriage. She's only a steward's daugther, but a minor noble house is still a noble house, so I don't see why in-world class issues would make this impossible. It would grant both of them a safe space to recover from the abuse through each other's now safe company, and maybe find a way to love and be loved despite being more or less dead to the rest of society for various reasons. [...]

Jeyne and Theon - I think their relationship is really interesting to explore as a kind of co-dependant comforting thing where no one else quite understands their shared trauma and neither of them quite trust anyone else any more. But also they have this really soft affection for each other and see things in each other that no one else does. I think they're both seen as kind of irredeemably broken and pathetic post-Ramsay but they see the strength and kindness and value in each other that no one else can.

theon jeyne: i generally prefer nonsexual interactions, however there are ways of doing sexuality that i can like: when it is initiated by and demanded by jeyne who seeks some form of reenactment or redress or nonviolent experience or corrective with theon that she considers safe/available for this and with a theon who is reluctant at best. i like intense dangerous codependency. i don't think regular romance is available to them or rather what they have is already past that.

Asides from those, not so many changes. I think the bigger and better outcome was just learning to be less judgemental and more open. I am honestly happy of having done the survey even if sometimes I wanted to stick my head in the oven.

#I don't know how to tag this #speaking #I don't know if I should tag the ships or if this would be considered as anti-ship #anyway overall more positive feelings about those two which is good.#asoiaf #theon greyjoy #Theon x Robb #theon x Jeyne

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