#only jc because of his victim complex

[dephoraowo]

Posts that defend abusers will always be ridiculous to me, but there was this one particular post that did it. It's basically a Madam Yu stan post where op said that both Yu Ziyuan and Jiang Fengmian were shitty parents that fucked their kids (& wwx) up in various different ways. But in op's words, also said that they will forever be more sympathetic to a frustrated woman in a patriarchal society stuck in a toxic marriage than to the man who has power and authority to change something but refuses to do it because he doesn't like conflict and pretends like nothing is wrong. (?????) They make it sound like Madam Yu was forced into the marriage and never wanted to marry a man like JFM when it's actually the total opposite 🫠. The real reason the relationship is so toxic is BECAUSE OF HER 😭😭😭💀.

Then the reblogs went on, and gosh, it gets worse because people were reblogging stuff like "justice for yu ziyuan", "shes such a badass", "oh shes so cool with her lightning whip". Another guy said that "You can say a lot about yzy, but you can't say she lacks courage." (Girl, courage?? Where??) They also said Jiang Fengmian has just exited that marriage, he's physically there but emotionally absent, it doesn't have to be a love marriage to be a real partnership, but he won't show up for that either and he makes decisions that carelessly undercut yzy's choices, like dissolving jiang yanli's engagement, and weaken her power, by his treatment of her son and their heir jiang cheng. (Oh, I guess her daughter's happiness never mattered to her?) They also said JFM also totally sucks as a sect leader. She's out nighthunting and training the disciples. Then they ended it by saying yzy and jfm's entire dysfunction made the whole household unhappy and damaged the kids for life, but at least one of them is at least trying to fulfill their responsibilities to the household and the sect and it's not jfm. I literally lost braincells after reading this smh.

I see that you've been in the mdzs fandom for quite a while. I would like to ask, what's the most ridiculous or outrageous post, or maybe any post that you really don't agree with during your time here.

Wei Wuxian irl would be a Republican (American politics) from literally last year. @jiangwanyinscatmom @admirableadmiranda @chai-chahiye-yr @grewlikefancyflowers wanna join?

[wangxianficfinder]

In the mood for...

Dec 16th

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1. Itmf fics for good!wen xu (or as good as he can be in his circumstances). We don't know much about him, which gives his character a lot of wiggle room potential. I've seen some interesting takes where he kinda parallels interpretations of zuko's cousin Lu Ten in avatar the last airbendee fics. Be interesting to see more of those

🔒 Contrapuntal by WithBroomBefore (T, 35k, WQ & WWX, WangXian, LQR/WQ, Canon Divergence, Time Travel, Fix-It, Canon-Typical Violence, Implied/Referenced Suicide, POV WQ, Everyone Lives, Happy Ending, Hurt/Comfort, Angst and Feels, Sickfic, Trans LWJ, Trans Male LWJ, Arranged Marriage, Minor Character Death, Murder)

these all have Wei Ying joining the Wens and oftentimes, being a positive influence on Wen Xu:

All Things Belong by kuroi_atropos (M, 92k, WWX & WRH, WangXian, WWX is a Wen, Abuse, Whipping, Manipulations, Warning: WRH, Smart WWX, Possessive Behavior, Warning: JGS, Implied/Referenced Rape/Non-con, Past Rape/Non-con, Society Level Victim Blaming, Victim Blaming)

Scars of Lightning by The_peregrine_falcon (T, 6k, YZY & WWX, WWX & WRH, WangXian, YZY’s A+ Parenting, Canon Divergence, Not Canon Compliant, Wen WWX, zidian, YZY is a bitch, Canon-Typical Violence, Blood and Injury, Major Character Injury, Heavy Angst, Lotus Pier, Nightless City, Young WWX, Muteness, Hurt kind of comfort)

Sunset, Sunrise by Ariana Deralte (ArianaDeralte) (T, 59k, WWX & WRH, WangXian, WIP, Time Travel Fix-It, Crack, Temporary Character Death, sorry I killed a-Yuan for a few paragraphs before the time travel, WWX is a Wen, Genius WWX, WRH gets to rewatch the series as a treat, Implied/Referenced Child Abuse, in this house we acknowledge that all the sects have flaws, Implied/Referenced Sexual Assault, WWX Has ADHD, Bad Parents JFM & YZY, Implied/Referenced Suicide, Autistic LWJ)

Train Rides Change Everything by Seriana (E, 508k, WangXian, SangXu, ChengJue, ChenLi, Modern AU, Non-Traditional A/B/O Dynamics, Mpreg, Abusive Jiang Family, Alpha LWJ, Omega WWX, Implied/Referenced Abuse, Slut Shaming, Fluff and Angst, Unplanned Pregnancy, Abusive YZY, Bad Parents JFM and YZY, Beta JC, Omega JYL, Implied/Referenced Rape/Non-con, Beta NHS, WC Being an Asshole, Non-Consensual Drug Use, Misunderstandings, Mating Bites, Mating Cycles/In Heat, Scenting, Scent Marking, Slow Burn, Forced Marriage, First Time, Forced Bitching - Omegaverse, Alpha WX, Minor Character Death, Murder, Implied/Referenced Suicide, Kidnapping, drug overdose, Sexual Tension, Omega JC) has a good (ish) Wen Cu. He's no boy scout, but he's far from the unredeemable person he is often seen as

Where The Arrow Points by Nillegible (G, 4k, WIP, WN & WQ, WN & WWX, JC & WWX, Time Travel Fix-It, Fix-It, No Sunshot Campaign, Because Um. WN murders WRH, IT WAS AN ACCIDENT, really) this fic seems to have been abandoned after only one chapter, unfortunately, but about half of that is from Wen Xu's POV and I found him interesting! He's still an antagonist (I think??? the fic died so early it's hard to tell) but he some complexity and positive qualities.

The Oriole Behind You by mercyandmagic (M, 97k, WangXian, LXC/JGY, JC/MM, CP/XY, MXY/NHS, NMJ/WQ, WN/QS, JYL/JZX, JZN/SS, SL/XXC, WX/WZL, LQR/Sisi, Arranged Marriage, Things are not as they appear, alternative title - WRH is the world's greatest matchmaker, Lan Family Feels, Jiang Family Feels, Angst with a Happy Ending, Everyone Lives) I remember this one having good!WX

🔒 Three Little Things by Netrixie (M, 39k, NHS/WX, LXC/NMJ, No Yin Iron, Crack Treated Seriously, Non-Traditional A/B/O Dynamics, Canon-Typical Violence, Background Character Death, Patricide, four people get beheaded, Enemies to lovers speedrun edition, Attempt at Humor, Canon-Typical Angst) it could be this one too, where WenXu goes against his father (I haven't finished reading it yet though)

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2. Hello! I hope you are all well this winter festive season! I have an ITMF request - do you know any recs that have a a whole humiliating spectacle comeuppance for Madam Yu, a la the trials in Dispersing Clouds and Truth Will Out (When Caught on Video). I’m JC ambivalent tbh but if you know of any where Madam Yu gets her just desserts for her abuse of WWX and JC stands with him, that would be great!! Thank you <3

🔒 The Second Hand Unwinds by trulywicked (E, 75k, WangXian, JYL/JZX, WIP, Time Travel Fix-It, Not JC Friendly, Not Yunmeng Jiang Sect Friendly, Not Jiāng Family Friendly, Not YZY Friendly, Time Travelling LWJ, Protective LWJ, Fluff, Minor Angst, Minor Character Death, JGS is his own warning, Wooing, LWJ is romantic af, Inventor WWX, Genius WWX, Cloud Recesses Study Arc, Implied/Referenced Child Abuse, Protective Gusu Lan Sect, Supportive LXC, Good Uncle LQR, WWX Protection Squad)

My heart knows (you’re the missing piece) by makexianxianhappytoday (T, 73k, WangXian, Jiang Family Bashing, Canon Divergence, Rogue cultivator!wwx, JYL Bashing, WWX leaves Jiang sect, WangXian Get a Happy Ending, JC Bashing, Protective! LWJ, Butterfly Effect, No Golden Core Transfer, Everyone Lives/Nobody Dies, Mastermind!NHS, JZX is WWX's friend, Good brother!LXC, Lan Yi is ALIVE, BAMF!WWX, a lil OOC ngl)

so i cut the shackles and changed my name by MichelleFeather (T, 34k, WangXian, WWX Leaves the Yunmeng Jiang Sect, WWX is a Lan, Good Uncle LQR, Supportive LQR, Protective LQR, Non-Graphic Rape/Non-Con, JFM and YZY Bashing, Jiang Family Bashing, Abusive Jiang Family, WangXian Get a Happy Ending, Hurt WWX, Genius WWX, No Sunshot Campaign, Cloud Recesses Study Arc, Cultivation Sect Politics, Additional Warnings In Author's Note, Canon Divergence, Protective Gusu Lan Sect, WRH isn't a power hungry tyrant, mostly, BSSR is WWX's Grandparent) an investigation into Yu Ziyuan and Jiang Fengmian is ongoing in so i cut the shackles and changed my name

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3. Hey hey!! I wanted to submit an Im in the Mood For ask, for any fic where WWX and LWJ have a rocky relationship at the start, due to political circumstance or LWJ acting rude, and LWJ then reaching out to fix the relationship! Thank you very much! We all appreciate the work you guys do immensely :]

💖🔒 love, in fire and blood by cicer (E, 360k, WangXian, Canon Divergence, YLLZ WWX, Arranged Marriage, political scheming, Gratuitous Domesticity, Mutual Pining, EXTREME SLOWBURN, the inherent eroticism of the forehead ribbon, The Mortifying Ordeal of Being Known, neither wwx nor lwj want to be Perceived, but sorry kids! it’s gonna happen!, rated E but the the NSFW stuff doesn’t begin until chapter 19!, bottom LWJ in chapter 20 and 27, Mojo’s post)

🧡 a stone to break your soul, a song to save it by rikke ( M, 180k, WangXian, Arranged marriage, Canon Divergence)

the river and the sea by sasamelons (T, 7k, WangXian, Soulmates, Arranged Marriage, Misunderstandings, Angst with a Happy Ending, Idiots in Love, Falling In Love, Soulmate-Identifying Marks, Mutual Pining)

我的皇后是農民 | sowing seeds in the cold palace by sweetlolixo (E, 84k, WangXian, Imperial Palace, Emperor LWJ, Imperial Consort WWX, Farmer WWX, Angst, Romance, Wingman LJY, Wife-chasing-LWJ, Arranged Marriage, Best Boy A-Yuan)

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4. Hiii thank you all so much for your help and recommendations ❤️

ITMF fics where Wei Wuxian is really harmed by the resentful energy / war/abuse injuries /starvation from surviving and then returning to live in the BM, and he and the Wens know: he is hurt, weak, slowly dying. Something with sad and depressed Wei Ying and the Wens, who try to take care of him while he still has some time and A-Yuan cheering him up. Maybe the whole cultivation world problem is a factor in Wei Ying giving up on his health and putting his all into protecting the Wens, who see and try to help however possible. Maybe Lan Zhan sees/thinks something is off and comes to them to help or at least spend time with them.

Maybe the siege happens anyway, maybe the plot changes (e.g. someone saves the Wens and helps Wei Ying, or they leave somewhere else, or they are left alone and become a village/sect), maybe Wei Ying dies/comes to the brink of death from poor health before someone can kill him, maybe he decides to accept and speed the process and break the Seal while sacrificing himself, maybe he slowly gets better. Overall, I really crave hurt and sick Wei Ying knowing the inevitable consequence of his poor health and getting comfort and love from the Wens (and any other people).

Thank you everyone ❤️ @shellennium

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5. for the next mood post: in the mood for a fic where jin guangyao is the vilain/antagonist! (Please do not include fics in the jgy bashing/not jgy friendly/evil jgy tags, I've already searched those).

Game Night by Hobbsy3 (T, 46k, WangXian, XuanLi, NieLan, Kidnapping, Implied/Referenced Torture, Witness Protection, Angst with a Happy Ending, Hurt/Comfort, Dark Comedy, Modern AU, Protective LWJ, Protective JYL, Protective JC, Fusion with the movie ‘Game Night’, Mentioned Junior Quartet, TGCF cameos if you squint)

Starlight by KouriArashi (T, 38k, wangxian, Stardust Fusion, Action/Adventure, Developing Relationship, Mutual Pining, Murder, Ghosts, Magic, Child Abuse) Stardust AU with JGY as the evilest prince

the problem with authority by isabilightwood (M, 139k, WangXian, QingLi, Canon Divergence, Sacrifice Summon, only the summoner sticks around, slightly dark!JYL, WQ lives, Slow Burn for yanqing, Angst with a Happy Ending, Chronic Pain, Mild Sexual Content, Versatile | Switch WangXian)

i told you when i came i was a stranger by Caramelized (M, 50k, OFC/LXC, minor WangXian, Isekai, Transmigration, Fix-It, Canon Divergence, Amateur cartography, Butterfly Effect, Sunshot Campaign, Somebody Lives/Not Everyone Dies, No Golden Core Transfer, Dimension Travel, Politics, LXC the politician, Self-Insert, Foreknowledge, Angst with a Happy Ending)

i’ll take a secondhand monster by Stratisphyre (T, 24k, MXY & WWX, MXY & JGY, LWJ & LSZ & MXY, WangXian, Canon Divergence, Child Abuse, Bullying, Angst with a Happy Ending, Hurt/Comfort, Kidfic, Minor canonical character death, Injured WWX, Earn Your Happy Ending)

in this place where we don’t have a prayer by Cerusee, Mikkeneko (T, 42k, WangXian, Canon Divergence, WWX dies at Qiongqi path, Demonic Cultivation)

🔒💖 Everyanything by deliciousblizzardshark & lingeringdust (E, 46k, wangxian, Canon Divergence, Gender Identity, Gender Dysphoria, Trans WWX, Protective LWJ, Accidental Baby Acquisition, Is it bad parenting to bring a baby on a nighthunt, Canon-Typical Misogyny, Fluff and Angst, Vaginal Sex, Canon-Typical Major Character Death) has a JGY as the ultimate antagonist and a big showdown vs. him at the end

Your love gives me Wings by SaiaiSaiko (M, 27k, WangXian, WWX Lives, MXY Lives, Winx Club Fusion, Enchantix Form, Sirenix From Winx Club, Believix From Winx Club, Fairy WWX, Witch WWX, Curses, Bad Health through Curses, Spiritual Tools are Pixies, Accelerated Aging, older looking WWX, Fairy NHS, BAMF WWX, BAMF NHS, WWX in WWX's Body, JZX Lives, NMJ Lives, JYL Lives, The following tags contain spoilers, Evil JGS, Trans MXY, Self-Discovery, Misgendering, Victim JGY, Curse Breaking) although it is in a wierd way

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6. Itmf: people sometimes liken Golden cores to being part of someone's soul. What if, ripping it out and putting it in jc, created a harry potter type horcrux situation? And that's why wwx didn't perish in the burial mounds, despite all odds? That maybe so long as jc lives, wwx can't die?

in this place where we don’t have a prayer by Cerusee, Mikkeneko (T, 42k, WangXian, Canon Divergence, WWX dies at Qiongqi path, Demonic Cultivation) link in #5 not exactly the scenario requested, but a fic where JC having WWX's core means people are able to bring him back to life earlier

forget the shade from this other tree by VagabondDawn (T, 11k, Canon Divergence, JZX Lives, No Qiongqi Path Ambush, Vague gesturing towards WWX forming a sect, canon-typical WangXian) And another one where a spell meant to target WWX affects JC instead (pretty minor plot point though)

Also idk if mikkeneko turned it into a full fic, but this plotbunny

Death of a Ghost by Gotcocomilk (E, 107k, WangXian, WWX & JL, Canon Divergence, Ghost WWX, Hurt/comfort, Family bonding, Fluff, Angst) ghost on the lotus peir by gotcocomilk , i dont remember exactly it was the condition but wwx was trapped in life because his core was in jc and it allowed him to use spiritual energy of some sorts (do you mean this fic? If not let me know 😊 - Mod C)

The Core Issue by Hauntcats (T, 21k, WangXian, Angst with a Happy Ending, Not JC Friendly, Canon Divergence)

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7. Hi! This is for ITMF. A modern cultivation au where a basic cultivation (like meditating, recognizing the difference of monster, etc) is teached in school but for more deeper learning have to go to sect affliated school. I want wwx as a teacher but anything alright. Or just a story where cultivation is normal is okay too. Thanks! / Hi! A few days ago i think i sent an ITMF ask about modern cultivation au? I dont remember if i mentioned it but if not can you add that it doesnt have to in school setting as long as cultivation is normal. Thanks! @idontknowwhattowriteforusername

Roadside Attractions by Bodldops (T, 10k, WangXian, Teacher WWX, Teacher LWJ, The power of organized aunties)

🔒 Song of Divination by LittleSummary (M, 28k, WangXian, LXC/NMJ, WIP, Single Parent WWX, Modern with Magic, Demonic Cultivation, Amnesiac WWX, Curses, Past Abuse, Canon-Typical Violence, Canon-Typical Behavior, Bad Parent YZY, Bad Parent JFM, Canon JC, No JC & WWX Reconciliation, Angst and Hurt/Comfort, LSZ is a Wei, MXY is a Wei)

Documented Fact by Scrippio (T, 7k, WangXian, Modern with Magic, College/University, Professors, Minor Injuries, Misunderstandings, Fluff, Zizhen POV, Humor)

Back to Bite One by diamondbruise (E, 21k, wangxian, modern w cultivation, past sex pollen, case fic, forced marriage technically, misunderstandings, happy ending) This last one isn't school-based but portrays the same cultivation practices as canon times in a modern setting.

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8. hello!! i'm ITMF a fic where JC and WWX reconcile by just beating the shit out of each other. Just a very cathartic brawl where they scream at each other and clear a lot of stuff up. @silas-octapisseron

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9. Is this the rec page? I'm new to this, so I'm not sure but I'm going to shoot my shot😅 are there any Wangxian fics where they're dating in their early teens and canon still happens while they're dating. Like, they don't even ever officially break up when Wei Wuxian turns to demonic cultivation and helps the wens in the burial mounds. Are there fics like that? Please let me know, please and thank you and I hope you have a nice day or night😁 @yasssbassss

seldom all they seem by Fahye (E, 25k, WangXian, Canon Divergence, Arranged Marriage, or rather Arranged Betrothal, followed by Weapons-Grade Thirst) Wei Ying and Lan Zhan have an early arranged betrothal before canon events happen in seldom all they seem so close, but not quite what the requested wanted.

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10. ITMF: WangXian de-aging or age play. Preferably nonsexual. Thank you 💖 @br0therw1ves

Glimpses Of The Past by A_simple_Cookie, GoschateWabn (G, 54k, WangXian, JC & WWX, LWJ & WWX, WIP, Age Regression/De-Aging, Good Sibling JC, YLLZ WWX, Young WWX, Childhood Memories, Fluff and Angst, Fluff, Twin Prides of Yunmeng Feels, Twin Prides of Yunmeng Dynamics, LWJ Has a YLLZ Kink, Angst and Hurt/Comfort, Fluff and Humor, Family Bonding, Post-Canon, WWX Needs a Hug, Gremlin WWX, Hijinks & Shenanigans, beware WWX shenanigans inside) De aged to all different ages on different days

A Child’s Wish by Hauntcats (Not rated, 13k, wangxian, WWX & Wen remnants, Celestial meddling, Not JC Friendly, Fix-It, Canon Divergence, Angst with a Happy Ending, Everyone gets what they deserve, Age Regression/De-Aging, Child LWJ)

found your writing on my wall by howodd5ever (T, 25k, WangXian, JC & LWJ, JC & WWX, Accidental Baby Acquisition, De-aged WWX, in which JC and LWJ have to learn to deal with each other, Post-Canon, Getting Together, JL makes an appearance, LSZ best boy, Referenced Child Neglect, discussion of parental loss, child food insecurity, Case Fic, Kind Of, Nightmares)

little a-ying by byeollie (Not Rated, 16k, WangXian, JL & LSZ & LJY, JC & WWX, LQR & WWX, Curses, Age Regression/De-Aging, Fluff, Babysitting, everyone has to look after a mischievous WWX, Yunmeng Bros, LQR has a heart, Established Relationship, Junior Trio Dynamics, Unreliable Narrator, Family Feels, Found Family, yunmeng bros reconciliation, Post-Canon, Mild Hurt/Comfort)

Rewritten by yamadori (Katsumi27) (G, 6k, WangXian, JC & WWX, Age Regression/De-Aging, Emotional Hurt/Comfort)

Silver & Gold by beeswaxing (E, 198k, wangxian, JL/LSZ, LJY/OYZZ, Post-Canon, Canon Divergence, Fluff and Angst, Hurt/Comfort, Age Regression/De-Aging, Fix-It of Sorts, Family Bonding, Established Relationship, Cuddling & Snuggling, Non-Sexual Intimacy, Literal Sleeping Together, Romance, BAMF WWX, Mutual Pining, Horny Teenagers, Underage Kissing, Protective WWX, Fluff)

sugar stains by lanjingyeet (T, 18k, WangXian, Kid Fic, (kind of), General Shenanigans, WWX gets turned into a child and it is exactly as chaotic as you'd expect, also the answer to the riddle was love all along, Spirits, questionable parenting, junior trio on babysitting duty, everyone is doing their best ok, Age Regression/De-Aging, Child WWX)

tiny gentians by humancorn (G, 1k, WangXian, Cloud Recesses Study Arc, )Location: Cloud Recesses, Age Regression/De-Aging, De-Aged WWX, Fluff, Pre-Slash)

grow by cafecliche (T, 14k, WangXian, Age Regression/De-Aging, Character Study, Post-Canon, [Podfic] Grow by jellyfishfire) translations into multiple languages available

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11. Hi! Its been a long time since my last ask. But I am hungry for some good fox wei wuxian and dragon lan wangji. And this is the best place for this. Kindly recommend me some fics that are Dragon lwj and fox wwx themed and

- Multi story fic / not oneshot or two shot

- Angst/historical/royal au 's are preferred.

Thank you @lostsoul234

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12. Hello, I am in the mood of fic where Lan Zhan dies (preferable temporarily) at Nightless city battle. Where he either jump after Wei Wuxian from the cliff or he is killed in the battle. I think you might have similar request fic recs somewhere but I forgot to save it. Thank you.

🔒 Blossoming flowers in a full moon - 花好月圆 by ThisIsWhereTheMagicHappens (T, 64k, WangXian, Canon Divergence, Happy Ending, Fix-It of Sorts, make LWJ happy agenda, wangxian cuddle to Immortality)

coax our vineyard through by Shializaro (G, 8k, JFM/YZY, WangXian, POV JFM, Time Travel, POV Outsider, Letters, Rumors, BAMF YZY, Off-screen BAMF WWX)

If I Could Go Back in Time by Runningbarefoot (M, 122k, WangXian, NieLan, Canon Divergence, Role Reversal, Somebody Lives/Not Everyone Dies, Pining, Angst with a Happy Ending, Grief/Mourning, YLLZ WWX, Eventual Happy Ending, The Twin Jade Brotherhood, Hurt/Comfort, Character Study, Twin Prides of Yúnmèng Dynamics, Slow Burn)

Blood from a Stone by muchlessvermillion (M, 47k, WangXianCheng, Time Loop, Angst with a Happy Ending, Fix-It, Canon Divergence, Pining, Developing Relationship, Enemies to Friends to Lovers, Cultivation Sect Politics, Sect Leader JC, Politics, Temporary Character, Death Suicide, Canon-Typical Violence, Grief/Mourning, Getting Together, Polyamory, Love Confessions) it's offscreen but it impacts the narrative, if that makes sense?

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13. Hi, I'm in the mood for as many dom/sub Wangxian fics as you can share. No bottom Lan Zhan please. Huge bonus points if it's a lengthy fic with a darkji tag, or has some elements of darklanzhan. Thanks! @thehappyyellow

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14. Hi! This is for ITMF. I want to read a fic where LWJ is the one who left WWX. Like, i read too much of a story where WWX left LWJ. So i want to read the opposite.

Bonus if JYL/JWY/WN/WQ is protective of WWX @idontknowwhattowriteforusername

estuaries by vesna (mrsronweasley) (E, 34k, wangixan, modern, breakup/makeup, pining while fucking, single dad WWX, angst w/ happy ending)

🧡 Life as a House by Terri Botta (Isilwath) (T, 55k, WangXian, Modern AU, Corporate Espionage, Post-Divorce, Father-Son Relationship, Reconciliation, Angst with a Happy Ending, WangXian Get a Happy Ending, LWJ Needs A Hug, lsz is a good boy, recovery from abuse, Therapy, Abusive Relationships, lwj pov, No Powers)

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15. Hello! I hope all of you beautiful people are well! I was hoping for ITMF that keep bothering me.

Does anyone has a wangxian fic fic ACCURATE canon Lan Xichen. By that, I mean, in which he is just a Himbo like MXTX explained to us. Not some knowledgeble and intelligent one who somehow got tricked.

Also, if possible, if it exist, maybe some dark Lan Zhan that figures out that manipulating his brother is not that hard and may fix more of his problems than he expected.

Thank you! @lostandmessedup

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16. Do you have any mobility aid user wwx 👀

Thank you so much for your hard work mods 🙏🙏

No jc bashing or a/b/o please

Elder, an Aesthetic by MarbleGlove (G, 8k, JC & WWX, Fix-It, Post-Sunshot Campaign)

Like a Water-Worn Stone by meyari (T, 41k, wangxian, major character death, Hurt/Comfort, very little hurt, lots of comfort, Chronic Illness, Serious Injuries, Self-Medication, Disability, PTSD, Depression, Self-Worth Issues, Implied/Referenced Child Abuse, aftermath of war, Aftermath of Violence, Prisoner of War, Identity Issues, Warning: Jīn Guāngshàn, enslavement (discussion of), abuse (discussion of), actually very fluffy despite the warnings)

Work in Tandem by MimiSpearmint (E, 23k, WangXian, LWJ & LSZ, Modern with Magic, Single Parent LWJ, when you just want disability-led sword lessons for your child, swordflight instructor WWX, swordflight instructor LWJ, Fluff, give LWJ friends agenda, Protective LWJ, Getting Together, Intercrural Sex, Choking, Oral Sex, Rough Sex, a lil bit slut-shamey but in a hot consensual way, imma say we lean into canon sex dynamics in this one, Implied off-screen D/s negotiations, Work in Tandem [Podfic] by GinevraReads (GinevraFangirl))

Black Sun by thelastdboy (E, 51k, WangXian, WIP, POV WWX, POV LWJ, Canon Divergence, Fall of Lotus Pier, Modern with Magic, No Sunshot Campaign, Hurt WWX, Not Jiang Family Friendly, Not Cultivation World Friendly, WZL Redemption, Wen Remnants Live, WWX Lives, Amputation, Hurt LWJ, Genius WWX, Inventor WWX, Additional Warnings In Author's Note, Burial Mounds Ensemble as Family, Hurt/Comfort, Angst with a Happy Ending, Cultivation Sect Politics, WangXian Get a Happy Ending, Disability, Classism)

we’re starting at the end by Miss_Enthusiasimal (M, 92k, WangXian, JC & WWX, Time Travel, Canon Divergence, Implied/Referenced Suicide, Golden Core Reveal, Burial Mounds, Hurt/Comfort, Angst, Starvation, emaciation, Cannibalism, Self-Harm, Amputation, Suicidal Thoughts, Sunshot Campaign, let JZX and WWX be friends club)

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17. Hi! Thank you for everything you do.

I am in the mood for a fic where there is a confrontation between Lan Qiren and Wei Wuxian. The most important part is that during the confrontation is that Wei Wuxian says that he does not respect Lan Qiren and does not believe he is worthy of respect. Lan Qiren is an awful teacher who never taught him anything. He is not a good disciple of the Lan sect as he breaks rules all the time. He is not a good uncle because he seems to put his own wants and needs before his nephews wants and needs. He is not a good person because he treats people unfairly and is prejudiced. Lan Qiren was disrespectful towards Wei Wuxian’s mother, a dead woman, for something she did years ago.

I just want a fic that addresses these points and shows that Wei Wuxian really doesn’t care about Lan Qiren and in fact really dislikes him. I would also like to see some karma visited upon Lan Qiren and for him to be shocked that Wei Wuxian, and maybe even most his or the younger generation, see him as a joke.

I don’t know if there is anything out there like this but I would love to read it! @kjwaikiki

For 17, Wei Ying is a disciple of Baoshan Sanren in this one but it otherwise fits the request

Going on charmingly by scribbet (T, 21k, WangXian, Teenage LWJ, Cloud Recesses Shenanigans, Cloud Recesses Study Arc, WWX is BSSR's Disciple, Genius WWX, Petty LWJ, Meddling LXC, What if LWJ didn't have an excuse to instantly write WWX off?, Canon Divergence, JFM Doesn't Adopt WWX, POV LWJ)

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[annalacerda17]

Well I think I encountered my fist Jiang Cheng defender towards myself.

I was on Reddit and found a post asking what opinion that you will defend against the entire mess fan base?

this was my opinion: “

Jiang Chang is a peace of shit no matter what. The live action and anime shows changed his character a lot then it was from the book but a lot of you people like defending the shit he has done too much.

you either treat him as a baby that did no wrong or that he is a flawed character and not perfect but still cares about WWX.

jiang chang does not care about wwx at all in the books. He hunted down anyone that remotely did some strange or somewhat simpler to wwx and would torture and kill them because he was that paranoid that wwx came back.

When he learned of wwx retuned, he hunted him down and used wwx greatest fear to torture him.

JC knew the remaining wens were a bunch of old and injured people (with one of them being a little kid) before the siege, and he still killed them.

and even after the end of the story, in the extras, he still treats wwx like a piece of shit in the extras.

and no it is not in a way of that tusndare crap, he just treats him like crap just because.

you have taken the jc from two show that is different from the book, and when you read it, you projected that into the story ignoring that actual char in the book and replaced with his show counter part.

I know what it’s like liking a problematic character but I acknowledge that they are a piece of shit and not go trying not change canon because if that”

and this is one of the comments I got from it: “You clearly didnt understand Jiang Cheng's character, and its fine! He is a pretty complex one! But shush if you dont know what you are talking about. Its a piece of advice actually! To save you from embarassing yourself further! xoxo”

these 🤡

Hi, there!

So, Jiang Cheng's character really isn't complex. The novel is quite complex, but Jiang Cheng's character really isn't. The problem is that Jiang Cheng stans ignore the bits and pieces they don't like and then get angry with the rest of us that don't. Then, there's a whole lot of Jiang Cheng stans who mix up Jiang Cheng's character as it is in the novel with all sorts of fandom created content, and they will insist that everyone should acknowledge their fanon takes as canon, even when those explicitly contradictory each other.

What I think can muddy the waters when it comes to the live action is that they changed the dynamics in Jiang Cheng's and Wei Wuxian's relationship during the Cloud Recesses arc and during that whole chase for the Yin Tiger Tally mess that didn't exist in the book, where they depicted Jiang Cheng as this worried friend. But that's not very relevant when 1) he later on proceeded to attempt to kill Wei Wuxian several times, and 2) It's not relevant at all to discussions about the novel, because it didn't happen in the novel (that's a live action only plot). That, paired with the acting (specifically the actor who played Jiang Cheng, who only seemed to play the three emotions of mild happiness, weeping in sadness and weeping in anger) that, in my opinion, wasn't up to par and that gave Jiang Cheng stans the misplaced confidence to believe they could impose their misinterpretation of the character onto the entire fandom.

The thing about Jiang Cheng is that he never acknowledges responsibility for the unwanted consequences of his own actions. He is ungrateful and he treats others terribly. He's just a horrible person to be around. However, he behaves like that while claiming to be a victim, and some people take that at face value, rather than to look at the context in which it's happening. As for him "loving" Wei Wuxian and wanting to "rekindle" their "friendship" , that's easy enough to disprove. Jiang Cheng himself says he wanted to find and kill Wei Wuxian the first time we see them meet in the novel, when Wei Wuxian was still pretending to be Mo Xuanyu. Specifically, Jiang Cheng thinks to himself about how he had kidnapped many people whom he suspected might practice Wei Wuxian's cultivation, tortured them to see if they were Wei Wuxian and killed them, all because he believed Wei Wuxian wasn't really dead and he wanted to kill him himself.

All throughout the novel, Jiang Cheng created problems for Wei Wuxian. For instance, when Wei Wuxian tells Jiang Cheng to announce that he, Wei Wuxian, had left the Jiang sect, what Jiang Cheng does instead is tell everyone that Wei Wuxian had declared himself the enemy of the cultivation world, which was both untrue and painted a huge target on Wei Wuxian's back. That's hatred, not love.

Another thing that a lot of Jiang Cheng stans like to pretend didn't happen is the fact that Jiang Cheng was the one leading the first siege of the burial mounds. The novel clearly stated that Jiang Cheng was the one leading it with support from the Jin sect, while the Lan and the Nie sects only sent a small force that they could've done without.

Now, I don't really care if some random person on the internet loves Jiang Cheng and wants to read fanfictions that depict him in a better light or to make fanart about him or whatever. What annoys me are the ones who insist on censuring the rest of us when we want to talk about the canon version of the character. They will forcefully insert themselves in our spaces and try to force feed us their version of the character.

Just stand your ground and don't let them ruin the fandom for you!

[marshmallowwitharubberband]

I have a complicated relationship with Jiang Cheng.

As a character, I love his complexity, but I especially love how realistically it portrays one of the real-life outcomes of growing up in a violent, emotionally-repressive environment. When every display of emotion is labeled as weakness and answered with violence, some people eventually become programmed to turn any emotion into agression, see everything as an attack, and become secretly-people-pleasers with zero tolerance to frustration.

Actually, the Jiang siblings are excellent portraits of the different outcomes of what growing up in violence can do to you: you either become small and unnoticeable to survive, you become the kindest person ever so no one goes through the same, your self-worth gets reduced to what you can do for others, you go into substance abuse...

Thinking about it, I wouldn't be surprised if MXTX studied psychology in some form because the personalities resulting of her character's backgrounds are surprisingly realistic, for the most part, but back to Cheng-Cheng.

Guy had all the pressure put on him by his emotions-hating helicopter mom. Yanli got a pass for being a woman and being "destined" to be a wife, and maybe Mme. Yu may have projected a little, maybe she thought if she, herself, was sweeter and meeker JFM would treat her better? Idk, but the fact is, Yanli was allowed to not be "strong" ('Cause Mommy Yu is definitely the type of person to equal strength to agression). WWX "didn't count" because he was just a servant, so she merely ground his self-worth into the dirt.

Poor Jiang Cheng had to bear the brunt of his mom's horrible expectations and it broke him. His agression is more like a scared animal's, he lashes out his fear and frustration as violence because it's the only "acceptable" way, the only way he learned to be taken seriously or handle emotions at all. Much like today's wall-punching macho wannabes.

I wouldn't be surprised if Jiang Cheng, in a modern AU, would be sucked into the red pill rhetoric, he's exactly the lonely, stressed, emotionally hurt and vulnerable demographic those jerks target.

So yeah, he is a complex character with very valid motivations and a horribly tragic story handled in a very realistic way, I love that.

As a person, though, I really, really hate him and admit that, at some points in the book I would skip over his dialogue because yeah, yeah, your suffering, your sacrifices, boo hoo, poor you, my god, just shut up, everyone in this place has suffered and lost and is majorly messed up, you're not special! (At least he didn't actively murder anyone)

But I am aware it's because he reminds me, uncannily accurately, of someone who irl emotionally abused me all through childhood while the other adults around me did nothing. They, too, were obsessed with what I "owed" them both literally and metaphorically, and showed their affection with criticism, aggressiveness, and irate explosions. And while I understand them more now and the cycle of violence they were a victim of, I cannot forgive their actions. And I kin Wei Wuxian too hard to ever forgive Jiang Cheng.

But I do like how The Untamed softened him a lot and took care to emphasize that he was just an insecure kid who wanted to be accepted and the universe made him its chew toy. It re-portrayed him as that younger sibling who just wants to be included in his big bro's adventures and keeps being pushed aside by everybody. TU JC is my sweet little baby and needs a hug.

Book JC can go fry asparagus.

[thewhitehairedwitchgirl]

I just read part of a fic that claimed to be writing a more "critical" version of Jiang Cheng, and I'm usually wary of such because when ppl say they're going to be "critical" of JC (or indeed any character) they usually mean they're going to turn him into YZY 2.0 with no redeeming qualities aside from being the absolute worst version of himself 24/7. Every JC/Jiang Bashing fic I've ever read is just the most one dimensional portrayal of MXTX's extremely complex characters, even if the author has to make up crimes and drama that actively contradict canon traits (rip yanli)

And that's fine. It's fanfiction. You're allowed to write whatever you want and if readers don't like it the exit button is free. However, it just irks me because I don't even really like JC and some of these portrayals make me want to defend this man in court.

For one, branding him as a mass murderer for being at the siege. Okay sure, but in that case so is literally everyone who persecuted the Wen Remnants even if only through wilful ignorance and passive allowance. The Lans, the Nies, and every minor sect. Yet why does LXC get a pass when he also was involved with the death and slaughter of the Wens? The primary message of the book was the dangers of mob mentality tyranny, and that all the great clans and leaders were at fault.

I see JC as a victim. As a child he was punished for acting familiarly with WWX while also punished for not being as skilled. Then as an adult he witnessed the death of his entire family and sect, and lashed out badly. Yet why is that his sole defining character moment? As if he didn't spent the end of the war wanting to protect his family, INCLUDING WWX. Of course he blamed WWX for Lotus Pier burning. Everyone did, including the Wens. They were obviously always going to attack, but WWX was a convenient scapegoat.

I won't pretend their relationship was healthy, but it also wasn't monstrously abusive. The reason JC lost his core was because he was trying to protect WWX from a patrol of Wen soldiers. Even after their fight, JC still snuck JYL into the city to see WWX and was the one who suggested that WWX be the one to choose the baby's courtesy name. It's explicitly stated that a lot of the reason their relationship went so sour was because the other sects (namely the Jins) manipulated/preyed on his insecurities.

TLDR: stop making me defend this man.

[llycaons]

ep48 (1/3): thank fucking god jc and wwx are finally talking it out

this was sweet. when does lwj ever defend someone to wwx rather than vice versa? but he dutifully reports than wen ning didn't do this happily

wwx rolling his eyes like 'oh GOD here we go again'

okay okay but I am so excited for this because I truly believe this is jc's absolutely best scene best monologue best interaction with wwx in the SHOW. finally everything coming to light! finally communication! finally a solid closure to the rage and grief that has torn them apart! but first it displays all of jc's issues and problems so so clearly

and it start off with jc bitterly praising wwx for being such a saint. which I really enjoy on a writing level, because it's very self-aware. it's easy as a reader to think that jc should bow down in gratitude, but jc as a character has a lot of pride and judges things very differently - he's a living, breathing, thinking character who has his own beliefs, principles, grudges, and motivations

I don't even know how to describe this. mocking praise? it's very characteristic of jc of this arc. sarcastic, insecure, and bitter, keenly aware of wwx's achievements and virtues and resenting him for them. idk what he wants wwx to do...obviously he's not thinking rationally but wwx can't help being good at stuff

he's making wwx entirely responsible for his feelings. not even 'you did this and I felt this way' but 'you are this way and I'm different and it's your fault that I'm not as good'

not even forgiving the debt owed from all those decades ago, even knowing the truth! he also has a big victim complex - even when wwx was being disrespected and even abused in ways jc wasn't, he still remembers it the way it'll suit his needs. no capacity to consider wwx's troubles or suffering. absolutely no emotional imagination. not that being low-empathy makes you a bad person, but the way he acted has never been part of a healthy relationship w wwx

this moment captures him SO well. while castigating wwx about jin ling, jin ling himself tries to reach out - to comfort or dissuade. and jc throws him off, impatient and angry and entirely focused on the object of his revenge rather than the living child he claims to be trying to protect, the child who's right there asking for his attention

this also feels very self-aware of the writing. almost...lampshading? not the right term. it feels fair and right that one major character close to wwx, and sympathetic despite his behavior, is holding wwx to task for this. I am obviously on wwx's side, but it makes sense than people would be upset but what happened and it feels very honest to allow jc this bitterness and anger rather than forcing everyone in the story to immediately forgive and love him. it adds texture and complexity to the characters and the world, and it makes actions like lwj's more significant. jc was never going to be the partner wwx needed, and that's extremely important to the story

another fair accusation. on the other hand it was pretty clear wwx was majorly depressed after the war and while jc might have been angry with him for drinking, he only responded with punishment instead of, idk, compassion for the other sibling who lost his entire home and family? jc didn't talk to wwx either

I read this as jc angry with himself for not being able to truly hate wwx, and blaming wwx himself for...not being hateable? it's very convoluted. jc needs so much therapy

CLOWN MOMENT

wwx touching lwj's hand to prevent him from jumping to wwx's defense, jl interpreting lwj leaning forward as him about to attack, and jc tearfully saying "I can take him!! you think I'm scared of him?" a lot going on here

oof. ough

there it is 😭 circumstances of the past aside, I'm glad they made it this point

...is that a smile? I can't even tell I swear

and NOW he's calling HIMSELF pathetic for even caring that much. my guy I think easing off on being judgemental towards yourself and your loved ones might help

JIANG CHENG APOLOGY EVENT CATCH IT ONCE EVERY TWENTY YEARS 🎇🎉🎈🎁

I can't tell if this is putting distance between jc and wwx (bc wwx is saying he did it as payment) or bringing them closer (bc wwx is saying there's no need for jc to regret or agonize over the past anymore)

I forgot how satisfying this scene was. wwx went through so many trials and despite the residual trauma, he really feels like he's able to move on. and that can include jc too

🥺🥺🥺

I believe in yunmeng sibling reconciliation!!! this was a really hopeful and honest and cathartic discussion and I feel really good about their future relationship. I get caught up in the scenes before this and I just a lot of jc fic writers on it, but after this scene I can def see their dynamic becoming much less antagonistic. wwx isn't joking about his pain or making excuses for jc or talking about how much he likes to be mistreated - he's gentle and honest and real. and he wants to move on. finally. finally they got there

[plan-d-to-i]

tbh I don't even hate jc, I just don't care enough about him and I believe he fulfills his role in the story. Anyways, idk what's with Twitter and jc stans today but I saw this person calling wwx stans "genocide stans" which is gross af and you'll expect for this person to be like 14 but SHE'S 26.

And then she also made this cringey post saying Not gonna lie, I'd love it if we went from "JC loses his memory of WWX to find peace" and more "WWX realising he wants to reconcile and trying his best to make it happen, only for JC to turn around and say, completely serious, 'WWX, I don't give a shit anymore, leave me alone.'" and this is just beyond ???? As if it's not jc the one who's obsessed with wwx, not the other way around (and as if it's not wwx who actually realized he's better off without jc and living his best life with lwj, lol).

But, also, the thing that baffles me to no end is how much they hate wwx but they CRAVE for him to be all over and about jc. They need for wwx to validate jc sooo bad, it's pathetic and funny, lmao... It's also so obvious they just project onto jc. They act as if they have some 2D complex with him and he's their animu husbando but I can't help but feel they also project onto him and that's why they took wwx TOO PERSONAL and want for him to apologize (when he doesn't even have anything to apologize for, anyways) and to adore the shit out of jc... so that's why it feels to me like if their mediocre ass were jc and they see wwx as the cool dude they need to have at their feet imploring for their attention, you know? It's honestly unbelievable.

I mean you’ve basically said it perfectly.

Uh this has me 🙃: “this person calling wwx stans "genocide stans" ???? Did they mean to say jc stans are genocide stans? Since jc strategized & led the butchering of the war refugees in the burial mounds? I know for a while they tried to argue it was “family extermination”, even though that sentence had not been passed against the Wens, & defending it, as though killing the Wen remnants is framed as anything less than heinous in the novel itself. They weren’t even supposed to be in the labor death camps, where they were being tortured and killed HENCE the Jins doing it on the down low & vehemently denying the conditions?! Now my degree is in history. So I’m well aware people & different organizations are always debating/arguing about what ought to be defined as genocide. I’d argue there’s a difference between recognizing it from a human standpoint and needing it to legally stand up in an international court of law rife what are generally viewed as overly restrictive requirements, that have come under fire and demand for reform- especially as they currently exclude social & political groups. But if we were to force the concept in the mix in this case, it would apply to what was done to the innocent Wens post war. I mean mxtx is a modern woman and has no doubt had her world view shaped by 20th century history. The labor camp where the living conditions were such that they would ensure death in short order. The torture they endured there, used as human lures, & killed. Very importantly, the dehumanization : “Wen Dogs”. When WWX goes to save them & this happens:

“Wei WuXian, “Nobody would dare kill a single person? Is that true?”

The inspectors swore in unison, “Absolutely!”

“Not a single one!”

Wei WuXian smiled, “Oh. I understand.”

Immediately after, he continued calmly, “It’s because they’re Wen-dogs, and Wen-dogs aren’t people. So even if you killed them, it doesn’t count as having killed people. That’s what you mean, isn’t it?”

This was exactly what the lead inspector was thinking when he said it.”

And this ‘lovely’ short excerpt from jc! :

“Yes, they helped us before, but why in the world don’t you understand that right now any remnant of the Wen Sect is a target of criticism! No matter who they are, with a surname of Wen they have committed a most heinous crime!”

“If you can’t do it then move over—I’ll do it!”

So I think it would benefit jc stans to stay the away from this word since it will only make their toxic bae look infinitely worse.

Anyway moving on from this very loaded topic...

I totally agree w your conclusion on the stans. It’s cringe af. Like you say you love jc why are you so obsessed w WWX taking him back? Move on! He did. They seem baffled by the idea that people won’t stay around to be treated like trash forever? People are within their rights to leave if your presence in their life is toxic and damaging. Become a better person and it won’t happen. I mean by the end of the novel even Jin ling is over jc. jc can only keep people around by guilting them or holding duty over their head. Why would anyone want that in their lives? jc stans are absurd. The ones who are projecting on jc bc they relate to him, can’t accept the way he’s perceived by others because they can’t bear to know they’re perceived similarly. That’s just how people perceive assholes ? No one owes you shit. People aren’t forced to dig past your toxic rage walls & take your abuse in the hope of a sweet gentle center that probably isn’t there anyway. Therapy &/or some self growth would be infinitely more useful that just trying to make toxic, abusive traits great again & victim blaming 🙄😗.

[randomshipshere]

MY OWN JGY headcanons:

JGY is the sole reason in all canon universes that JZX and JYL ever had a chance in getting together because of how much of a disaster JZX is. It's the very reason that JZX would come to refer to JGY as "A-Yao".

JYL and JGY were secret best friends because the Cultivation World wouldn't understand their friendship. They often teased each others disaster of a brother together, and in disguise would shop together. After her death, he harbored the blame and never forgave himself since.

JGY was actually born a whole two years before JZX was born but everyone literally assumed he was the younger brother because of his height and his flawless youthful skin. JGY doesn't correct anyone because of the complications it would have on the family line and honestly he gets a kick out of looking younger. (It's a brothel-learned thing.)

JGY actually has a strong Yunmeng accent that comes out when he's relaxed and irritated. The only few people in existence who heard him with that accent beyond childhood is Sisi, JYL, JC, JZX, Xue Yang, Su She and Mo Xuanyu. Each of them having different hilarious reactions. JC is the top contender because JGY doesn't speak like the men of Yumeng. He speaks like the women just as Sisi taught him, and you do not mess with the women of the piers.

In a modern reincarnated world, everyone hears that accent and the most horrified is WWX when JGY blasts at JC, making the former sect leader feel grateful he didn't go full Yunmeng woman on him at the temple, otherwise he'd be jumping into that coffin instead of him! And when he orders JC to "SIT YUR ASS DOWN YA DEFORMED-LOOKING LOTUS SEED REJECT, THAT EVEN A DYING HARLOT WOULDN'T EVEN SUCK ON!" WWX and JZX automatically sit down, too.

JGY identifies as androgynous, more specifically neutradrogyne so he (fine with any pronoun) isn't fixed on looking masculine or feminine, but will utilize society's view on gender to his advantage.

JGY didn't have a strong cultivation which held him back from being on the top 10 most handsome cultivators. But if he was, he wouldn't have made it anyway because he looked more 'Pretty' than 'Handsome' or as the female cultivators would put it, 'A Tragic Ambiguous Beauty', so they refer to him as the Special Exception.

JGY actually hates the color Yellow and gold (I don't take criticism) for how flashy and gaudy it can look. This being why he wears a lot of brown in order to neutralize the color. He actually very much prefers the Jiang's color purple. This being the reason why Su She's uniforms consist of both white and purple.

Unpopular opinion: JGY actually likes Su She a lot. Beyond the Lan Wangji hate, Su She is actually very humble, honest, compassionate, disciplined, loyal, etc. Su She learned these virtues from the Lan sect but had truly come to value these virtues throughout the war when he did the grunge work of helping citizens and the injured. It is also the time when he truly sees the flaws in the Lan sect for its detachment and so-called purity. In fact, his sect is made of a mixture of disciples and civilians without a home, so the Su sect isn't just a copy of the Lan sect but of other sects. But the copying of the Lan sect gets the most publicity so that is very much ignored. Of course Su She has his flaws where he has low self-esteem despite all he's accomplished and it fluctuates between having a superiority complex to self-sacrifice.

JGY always intended on murdering his father after WWX died because he didn't want another Wen Ruohan to rule the world, but he never had the courage to because he knew that even if he ran away, Nie Mingjue would hunt him down, possibly with the Cultivation World at his backing, to bring him to justice.

JGY knew from the start that NHS was gunning for him after his brother's death since he always made sure he knew where Nie Mingjue's body parts were. He just never expected for NHS to use LXC in the end for his vengeance, believing NHS would sympathize with LXC as a victim to his crime. He played the unknowing victim to NHS' vengeance and trapped himself with his brother so that NHS would continue to never have peace for a hundred years. (I think NHS intended for JGY to simply die by his brother's hand in order to find enlightenment but nope lol.)

JGY's work station is very organized, but if one were to look through it, they would find NOTHING in its intended places because JGY doesn't organize by dates, names or events. No. He organizes his work by how he feels. Like each section is organized by moods such as 'These old people I tolerate', 'the people I like', 'the people I love', 'these special facts and events that I would look back on when I'm bored', 'Papers that look important but it's really just to look like I'm working while secretly planning my perfect date or murder or both', and there's that very special section that is just 'BITCH'.

JGY, XY, MXY and SMS all have specific taste preferences. XY craves sweets. MXY loves sour. SMS has salt as his guilty pleasure. JGY is a freak who loves bitter food: Dark chocolate, Ginger, Alcohol, bitter melon, tea. That's because Meng Shi wanted him to remain as healthy as possible so a lot of MY's food growing up were very bitter.

[sneakydraws]

Well, here it is - a lengthy explanation of each card in my mdzs major arcana deck and what I meant to convey/what i would have changed in retrospect/what alternatives i considered! It’s a bit messy and my typing style is lazy but hopefully it will be an interesting read to some of you :)

And so you don’t say I didn’t warn you - jiang cheng’s section (11 justice) is absurdly long lmao

0 the fool  I elaborated on this in the post itself but yeah basically jin ling is kind of representative of all the damage and trauma caused by the past, and there’s a kind of danger there of him falling victim to the same vices as the older characters and repeating the same mistakes and perpetuating the cycle of war and misery (the cycle that we already see with how the jin sect became the new wen sect, and later with how jgy became the new wwx) and he has a lot of room to grow! He grows so much over the course of the novel, comes to realise the complexities of the past and gets a harsh life lesson in how nothing is as black and white as it seems. But ill save talking about his progress for the end, for now whats important is that he has room to grow and also a dog. I don’t really have a justification for the sun, i mostly just thought it looked sick? It made its way to the next card as well, where it makes a bit more sense, but then i realised it was a dumb motif to include 1 the magician I still very much like wwx for the role, and that illustration would have probably had him raising a corpse on his left and pointing threateningly to the sun on his right. I considered including the table as well, with some mdzs relevant items replacing the card suits. Anyway, like i said wwx got a few cards to himself already so i went with the alternative wq design, since i think she fits the card as well. Both she and wwx are highly skilled people, extremely driven once they set their mind to something. The card to me symbolises the creative mind as well as a general drive for action, which fits them both - wwx was famously a prolific inventor, and wq came up with a previously unheard of surgery, after all. This card strays pretty far from the rider-waite deck design, largely because i was still figuring out how i wanted to approach this series, but you can still see the influence. 2 the high priestess I was actually going to skip this card at first because I couldn’t think of a fitting character, but once i considered a qings character post death, it all fit pretty well. She was already a highly intuitive person in life, and in sharing her memories with wwx she is, in a way, relaying a kind of secret knowledge. Anyway she’s one of my fav characters so im glad i got a chance to include her. The coffins could be interpreted to be xxc and sl or xxc and xy 3 the empress Theres other mother figures in mdzs who got to be mothers for a longer time, but jyl definitely embodies the positive aspects of this card the best. She’s nurturing, kind, emotionally supportive, she already mothered wwx and jc quite a bit when she was young. Plus i liked that the rw card had both water and flowers, making an easy lotus connection. In retrospect the stars look kind of out of place and i should have replaced them with something more relevant... Also, i should have had her hold a lotus seed pod instead of a flower, haha 4 the emperor Like i said I considered jc for the role but hoching bullied me into admitting that nmj was better… they’re both more of an inverted emperor than an upright one but then again theres hardly any character in mdzs who would fit upright emperor so. Jgs was also considered but he’s even uglier than nmj so i couldn’t bear to draw him 5 the hierophant It was pointed out to me that lqr would have fit this card better and the truth if that statement haunts me to this day. Unfortunately I have no space in my brain for lqr so lxc got the role instead. My main reason was his role during the wen destruction of gusu lan, when he ran away with the contents of the library - this is why there’s bookshelves behind him. The keys, take, from the rider-waite deck, are meant to represent the gusu pendants that allow you to enter 6 the lovers Im sure many people would have chosen wangxian here but I uhh don’t really care abt wangxian personally? And also their love story is so convoluted that jyl and jzx seem idyllic by comparison lol. Also i didnt really have an idea for who to put in the angel’s place for wangxian… mme jin certainly did not get these two together in the end but undeniably she and mme yu did initially give them a chance to fall for each other so. Thats something i guess. Anyway the trees became their sects’ flowers and the mountain became the burial grounds - an omen of their tragic fate, basically 7 the chariot There might have been other characters who fit this card better but i couldn’t really think of another card for lwj and i thought it would be weird to not include him… anyway i don’t really care for current timeline lwj BUT i do like that he was clearly influenced by wwx to walk his own path in life based on his moral convictions rather than follow his sect’s rules blindly. The chariot is to me a card of self control, self determination and focused action, so it seemed fitting. The composition felt kind of empty without the actual chariot so i padded it out with the guqin, the cloud recess in the bg (it doesn’t look great but i tried to replicate the drama design….) and the bunnies which conveniently fit the colour scheme of the sphinxes in the rider-waite design 8 strength Like i said before, my interpretation of this card is more… morally ambiguous than the quote unquote official meaning, so i thought about manipulative or duplicitous characters more than kind characters whose strength is expressed through gentleness (though i did consider jyl briefly for the latter interpretation). As such, i considered both jgy and nhs, but ended up going with jgy largely because i couldn’t pass up the opportunity to put the nie sect’s beast as the lion. 9 the hermit My thoughts immediately went to bssr lol. It may be an overly literal interpretation but whatever, i like it just fine. And i like that i managed to echo the rider-waite silhouette in the mountain and the tree (and even in bssr herself) 10 wheel of fortune God i love the parallels between these 2… this card to me is about how you cant trust your current situation, good or bad, to last forever, and these 2 embody that perfectly imo. Wwx went from son of a well off servant and a powerful cultivator, to street rat orphan, to adopted son of sect leader jiang, to double orphan, to MIA, to terrifying but admired warrior, to terrifying and despised traitor, to dead, to, at the very end, suddenly respected and trusted again. The dishonesty and cheapness of whatever the public’s current opinion of him is is portrayed beautifully as far as im concerned. And jgy of course claws his way up to power only to instantaneously become public enemy number one, to the point that he’s probably blamed for stuff there’s no reason to believe he had a hand in. Wei wuxian’s silent astonishment at how quickly the cultivation world turns against jgy and towards him again is a delicious moment of thematic resonance.  11 justice I settled on this card for jc after he got booted from the emperor seat but i do think it fits, in a somewhat convoluted way. I turned both the sword and the scales into visual representations of the golden core transfer (can you tell im obsessed with it). According to biddy tarot, the justice card is partly about searching for the truth, and the scene where jc finds out about the transfer is of course a big deal. I was also very influenced by the reversed meaning again - which is about being reluctant or unwilling to face or accept the consequences of your actions. I feel on an intuitive level that this fits jc but I’m not sure how well i can explain it - it’s something about how he’s a little too comfortable scapegoating wwx for things that were also, if much less so, influenced by his actions, and also something about the way he keeps wwx at an arm’s length emotionally but still leans on him and accepts his support when he really needs it, and somewhat hypocritically expects wwx to put the needs of him and the jiang sect before the needs of others. And also something about the core exchange is the consequence and proof of wwx’s deep - terrifyingly deep, even - love and care for him, which is something jc doesn’t seem to let himself acknowledge. Maybe even something about how you could argue that the way all of the jiangs acted around wwx - jfm’s favouritism that left him with the feeling of a debt he needs to repay, mme yus insistence that he be a servant more than a brother to jc, prepared to give his life for jc, and jc’s own unwillingness - or inability, he was a child after all - to clearly acknowledge wwx as an equal to himself, enabling wwx’s self sacrificial and protective tendencies - that all of this was what caused wwx’s complete and unquestioning willingness to do whatever it took to protect jc, and therefore paved the way to the golden core transfer. And i don’t mean this to be scapegoating jc - especially considering how young he was when this all went down, it wouldn’t be fair to expect this level of emotional perceptiveness, awareness and maturity of him - but i think adult jc has to grapple with the fact that the chain of cause and effect was not as simple as wwx fucking everyone’s lives up to be a martyr, and that both jc and his parents had a role in that story as well. I don’t even necessarily think this is something that jc only realised in the current timeline - i think it’s something he felt on some level this whole time, and it probably led to a lot of feelings of guilt - but the suibian reveal definitely puts it in sharp focus, and i think he’s now better equipped to handle this introspection than he was as a recently orphaned, traumatised teenager, lol. ANYWAY the window with the fabric is both a nod to the rider-waite design and a reference to the destruction of lanling - i actually did some basic ass research for this, and it seems that in ancient china fabric would indeed be hanged in a window if the normally used paper was damaged. The design of the window, as well as the very idea to use it to imply the reconstruction of lanling, was taken from this great piece of jc angst by my pal moroll1! Oh yeah also the covered window kind of works as a denial of forgiveness for jc because it’s like a halo but covered up... Also I completely forgot to put a blindfold over his eyes which would be perfectttt because blind justice and the core exchange......... ok moving on 12 the hanged man I always have issues with this card because i cant find a satisfactory summary of what it’s really about. Best i can tell it symbolises a need to hit pause, surrender or let go of something… ive also seen it tied to sacrifice? So mo xuanyu doesn’t fit perfectly, but sacrifice is definitely there in a surface level reading kind of way, and the idea that you have to surrender or let go in order to achieve your goal does fit the whole deal of getting revenge but giving up your life in exchange and not being there to see it 13 death This is probably one of my favourite cards, definitely not because I have huge issues with change or anything…. I see this card as signalling the necessity of change or putting an end to something / leaving something in the past in order to start anew? At first i considered putting past wwx, mxy and current wwx here as a kind of transformation and one cycle flowing into the next... But firstly, I’d already used mxy in the very previous card, so putting him in again would feel like overkill, and secondly, the longer I thought about it the less convinced I was that this would even fit with the card’s meaning? Because coming back from the dead doesn’t like... trigger an internal transformation within wwx or anything? Anyway, fun fact: the design I ended up going with was actually originally intended for judgement! I thought I was being very clever with the whole “figure plays an instrument and the dead rise” parallel, but apparently I’d just completely forgotten that the judgement card had a completely different composition... Truly I was boo boo the fool... But yeah anyway at the end of the day I figured the design would kind of work for death as well, with Wen Ning and the theme of transformation, (since in his case coming back as a fierce corpse does actually mark a certain transformation in behaviour) and Wei Wuxian’s protection of the Wen people essentially signifying an attempt to break the cycle of oppression if that makes any sense? Like, wwx is trying to revolutionise the way the world works a bit, if you catch my drift 14 temperance  The centrist card! Again this is probably going off track from the “official” interpretation, but to me this card has a certain “don’t commit fully; do everything in moderation; don’t take either side” flavour to it that i personally find infuriating irl and that i very much assign to lxc. It’s entirely possible that I’m misinterpreting his character because i didn’t really pay him (and the 3zun in general) much mind while reading, but hell, I’m allowed to pick favourites and choose who i want to interpret deeply vs shallowly. Again, i wish id chosen lqr for hierophant because its so annoying for a character i don’t care about to get two cards…. But oh well 15 the devil My alternative idea for this was jgy as the devil and lxc plus nmj as the figures, but since all three had been featured already (multiple times, even!) i figured I’d go with xy instead, especially since he’s among my faves lol. I think the devil signifies something along the lines of unhealthy attachment, obsession or addiction, which isn’t 100% accurate in the case of xxc and a-qing, but if i stretch it a bit to cover toxic relationships in general, and especially manipulation or negative influence, i don’t think it’s half bad. My main struggle here was to choose who amongst the xxc/sl/aq trio to choose for the human figures. 16 the tower Arguably jin zixuans death and the following massacre of nightless city were the final and most direct reason for the siege of burial mounds, and the tiger seal is good shorthand for wwx’s loss of control over his powers, which led to the deaths of jzx and jyl. When reimagining major arcana i like to feature some kind of building in this card (spoilers for a possible future project but in my rose of versailles major arcana set the tower is bastille) and even if it’s not a tower, the image of wwx looming over the gathered crowd from atop a rooftop is so good i couldn’t resist 17 the star Struggled with this one - considered both jin ling and lsz for it, as symbolising a hope for the future, but that was kind of covered by the world so it wouldn’t make sense to include here as well... As usual when I struggle with interpreting a card (as opposed to understanding it but struggling with matching a character to it, like with death or moon) I went to biddy tarot and read all the details about its meaning. What i got was that this card signifies an incoming period of introspection and inner peace following a time of turmoil, as well as a general moving on into a new, better phase of one’s life or finding new meaning and purpose. The figure also suggests someone vulnerable, but possessing a keen sense of intuition as well as a good degree of practicality and common sense. Given all those, I settled for mianmian because IM LOVE HER..... I also kind of see her as a prelude to the “just one person is enough” theme present in tgcf!! And i think her decision to abandon her sect because she saw the toxicity and corruption in it is a very inspiring action - even if it didn’t make a large visible impact, i think the appearance of her and her idyllic family at the very end of the novel - paralleling and mirroring wangxian - implies that at the end of the day, it was a meaningful one 18 the moon Another card i ALWAYS fuxking struggle with - this time less because i can’t grasp its meaning and more because I can never find a character that fits it well. I usually get fixated on the “dreams and subconscious” part, but if i lean more on the “disguise, deceit, anxiety and fear” part, i eventually figured the whole yi city arc wouldn’t be a bad fit. I say the entire arc because it really does encompass all those themes if you include both the past and the present - xue yang’s disguise, his tricks with the villagers, a-qing’s lies and even xxc’s reluctance to talk about his past as well as xue yang pretending to be xxc all fit the disguise and deceit angle, and the general mystery and creepiness of the current timeline yi city work well with the anxiety and fear - the mist, the slow uncovering of the past, even a-qing being revealed to be an ally after scaring the shit out of the protags. I definitely struggled with including all the elements and characters, and even moreso with making them vaguely fit the rider-waite composition, but i think it ended up okay ish. OH and i completely forgot to draw mist swirling around them :( 19 the sun I was considering mianmian’s family for this one, but since I used her for star, I ended up with wwx and his parents instead. Once again I’m reinterpreting the card a bit - normally I think it symbolises incoming times of pure happiness and abundance, as well as a connection with the inner child, but I gave it more of a nostalgic or sentimental twist - wwx looking back at the brief glimpse of his happy childhood. 20 judgement another card that i struggle to interpret a bit... Here i actually used the tgcf tarot zine as a reference! In it judgement is summarised as “rebirth, following duty, absolution” SO i figured that nhs, mxy and wwx all together would fit pretty neatly... wwx achieving (public) absolution through clearing his own name after being reborn, and nhs sort of calling on wwx to expose jgy’s crimes... It’s a bit messy but not bad I think! 21 the world This ties very closely to my read on mdzs as a story - which is that it’s, at the end of the day, largely about cycles, and about how hard it is to break them, but how we gotta keep trying and have hope anyway. Or maybe more precisely, that the people directly involved with and influenced by the trauma of the past might not be able to get over said trauma and that the hope for healing from it will be shouldered by the new generation. Or something like that… Basically what i mean is that jc and wwx and lwj and lxc and nhs and jgy and all these people who were in the thick of the sunshot campaign and the siege are so profoundly affected by it that it genuinely feels by the end of the story like there is little hope for them to ever truly overcome that trauma and build a better future without repeating the same old mistakes - but there is a glimmer of hope in the new generation, specifically in jl and lsz. And it’s a bit paradoxical, because they have also been directly impacted by the past tragedies - lsz having his entire clan wiped out after wwx failed to protect them, jl losing both his parents to wwx’s mistakes - but despite that loss, and despite coming from arguably the two opposing sides of the past conflicts, they are both, in the end, capable of moving past that tragedy, of recognising the complicated nature of those conflicts (jl’s moment of clarity at the end is both heartbreaking and hopeful) and forging friendships between clans in the process. I honestly think that the extra where jl is struggling to assert his authority as sect leader, to treat his subjects well and to cooperate with other sects in a truly amicable way is the single hopeful ending note for the larger themes of the novel - it allows us to imagine that maybe these kids can learn from the mistakes of their elders rather than getting sucked in by resentment at those mistakes, and actually build a brighter future for the cultivation world. And sidenote, this is also why i have a soft spot for jin ling and lan sizhui as a ship... speaking of which their poses were directly referenced from the lovers card ehehe

Looking back, I’d like to add some symbol of jin ling’s trauma so that it mirrors baby wen yuan in the tree stump... maybe his father’s sword? 

[red-talisman]

So I like became obsessed with ur guardian lion JC and gotta ask if u have anymore hc or ideas about it? Bc im like imagining the moment that LXC realizes how overprotected Lotus Pier is and kinda loving it? Or when someone else (NMJ) how protected Lotus Pier is and them being impressed without knowing that those are like only the first part of the defenses?

Do u know what occurred to me when I was thinking of ur Guardian Lion AU? A massive teletransportation array that just the sect leader can activate and that takes literally everyone with the Yummeng Jiang bells (or robes or whatever) away in case of an emergency like the Wen’s attack bc there’s

So I send that asks accidentally before I could finish it but the end was like there’s no better defense that not being there or better to survive to fight another day :p sorry for sending so many asks but I’m in love with ur AU and I couldn’t help myself

You’re apologizing but my ADHD brain over here is like YES ENGAGEMENT?? SHARED THOUGHTS??? DOPAMINE BOOST????? :D :D :D

imagining the moment that LXC realizes how overprotected Lotus Pier is and kinda loving it 

Okay so I’m not subtle At All about shipping Xicheng but I think that, especially post-canon, there is so much juicy emotional potential in the ways that JC and LXC could work. JC a decade ago (imo) is still too sharp in the edges of his trauma to be a healthy partner for LXC, and I think that LXC would still be too...forgiving? Soft? Distant, even?...that such a sharp JC - for whom love has always been complicated and conditional - wouldn’t feel able to trust his sincerity. I think that from a place of desperation rather than intentional malice, JC would push too far, just to get an authentic reaction, and LXC’s boundaries at that time honestly seem too poor to navigate that kind of interaction in a productive way. (Again, just imo and not at all personal projection.) Basically I think we’d most likely get something akin to Madam Yu and Jiang Fengmian’s dynamic all over again.

But a post-canon scenario in which JC has mellowed a little, has found some measure of stability and coping, and an LXC dealing with the aftermath of being emotionally exploited so deeply? Lotus Pier is a place which is fortified to the teeth and guarded by a man so loyal it’s been a source of torture for him, who shares some degree of Nie Mingjue’s sense of righteousness but tempered with the capacity to recognize that humans are flawed and often mistaken and sometimes terrible, and after so many years with Jin Guangyao, JC is reassuringly straightforward, easy to read, and predictable in his agendas. And if anyone could understand the complexity of emotional abuse and betrayal and feeling complicit/guilty without also judging or victim-blaming LXC, I think it’d be a post-canon JC.

Or when someone else (NMJ) how protected Lotus Pier is and them being impressed without knowing that those are like only the first part of the defenses? 

Dramatic reveals of unexpected BAMFery is a guilty pleasure. 😏

A massive teletransportation array 

That would be SUPER HANDY??? My only question is how something large enough to safely transport so many people would function according to CQL’s inconsistent Laws of Sorcery. However, CQL does have teleportation talismans, iirc (I think Su She used one as the masked intruder?) so perhaps all disciples and staff (because of course all the staff are trained, too) have such a talisman in their qiankun bag for Emergency Use Only.

I’m reminded of something my elder once told me about hearthkeepers in the spiritual sense. If you look at ‘the hearth’ as the metaphorical center of a community in which the community’s shared identity, history, ancestors, beliefs, and practices are held, then that’s...a lot of power. People tend to shit on ‘hearthkeeping’ both secular and spiritual because of reasons around gendered labor, but they forget that hearthkeepers are also responsible for cutting out those things which risk the well-being of a community. And when it comes to defense...when the warriors fall and the bounds of the home are breached, the last line of defense is, well, the hearthkeeper burning down the house itself because that is, pragmatically speaking, one way to protect your people from the enemy.

I share all that because although JC doesn’t quite fit the way I understand ‘hearthkeeper’ in the spiritual sense (which admittedly can look any number of ways and be shared among people rather than held by a single person), and anyway it doesn’t address differences in cultural context, the idea of the absolute last resort feels relevant somehow: better to die and join the ancestors than be alive and subjected to the enemy. And if he’s internalized that idea, for better or for worse, especially after his torture by the Wens, how might that influence the magical protections and practical policies of his sect?

[mxtxfanatic]

... Warning, rant in coming. Sorry.

Hot take, the only morally gray character in mess, that fits the exact definition of it, is Nie Huaisang.

I've seen more and more people trying to tone down Jiang Cheng's terribleness by saying that he's morally gray. I'very also seen those same people say that Wei Wuxian is morally gray because he did terrible things for good (and, no, lmao, he didn't. Most of those come from people not understanding how his cultivation works.) and that that was why he is so interesting. (Again, lmao. Lol even. Just say you don't appreciate depths and confuse "kind" with "boring", so you gotta give every character that you don't find boring a label to justify why you like them.)

I think the term "morally gray" has become a buzz word thrown around for any kind of character that isn't one dimensionally good or evil.

Jiang Cheng isn't morally gray. He is a bad person. Again, a PERSON. Not a monster, not some sort of creatures that has no concept of humanity, just. A bad person.

Society's habit of separating people that do bad things from themselves, that "us vs them" mantality, that dehumanization of bad people, it just leave a bad taste in my mouth. Even fucking serial killers have qualities, can be smart or charismatic or empathetic. Even pedophiles have hobbies and people that love them. Even rapists have people that they love and respect.

Being a terrible person doesn't mean that they're not human. There is no one in the world that has absolutely no redeeming qualities to them. But because of that separation that so many people take for the truth, because of that "they did this because they're a monster, but I'm not so I would never do this", people just cannot accept when a bad person isn't bad all the time.

They'll look at Jiang Cheng that, ultimately, loves his family and is arguably hard working, and they'll think that that means he's "morally gray", because he possesses good qualities, completely ignoring the fact that he's just a trash human being in general.

Low key, it pisses me off. Especially the people that relate so hard to him, and ask me if I wouldn't do the same in his shoes. Because no. I fucking wouldn't cause genocide. I wouldn't torture and kill complete strangers because they dared to have a surname I don't like or because they make me think of someone I resent from my past.

Like, I took can see myself in him, totally. He IS well written, and between the cartoonishly bad Xue Yang and the paragons of moral virtue that is Wangxian, he's definitely the one that feels closest to an everyday man, in personality if you ignore all the murders. I am petty, I hold grudges, I can be entitled and selfish, I am overall a massive rude cunt, but I do not want to hurt people and everyday I strive to be better than the last, even in infinitesimal ways. As should anyone. But that is something that Jiang Cheng doesn't even acknowledge, stuck as he is in his victim mentality and inferiority complex.

But Jiang Cheng is morally bankrupt. He is not morally gray. Not even dark gray. As an adult, he is painstakingly human and in general, a bad person.

And that is OK.

To make him a better person, you don't have to change his entire character with half assed head canons, just make him acknowledge his flaws and let him (finally) grow as a person, past that stubborn mentality he has had for decades.

He IS a bad person, but even bad people have a capacity for growth and change, of the moment they allow themselves to. If he ever gets forgiven for his past actions, that's on the people he has hurt, not that it should even be considered in his journey towards growth.

(Frankly, I don't think he would be. I think he shouldn't be, but that's not for me to decide. However, I can definitely JC finally making some tiny progresses but for all the wrong reasons, and get insulted when, if he ever even get to that point, his apologies don't end up fixing everything. He is totally the kind of person that would see you being mad at them and feel like he's the one being victimized because you didn't accept his half assed apologies. The emotional maturity on this man is below -100.)

(Also, Wei Wuxian isn't morally gray in the total opposite, in that he is such a good person, be it morally or emotionally, just. God, I envy his mental fortitude and his capacity for forgiveness and love.)

Sorry again for the ask, just had to rant somewhere about this and I am kind of curious about how you consider the "morally gray" argument. I think it's total bullshit, if the entire post didn't tell you, but yeah, I'm curious.

I hope I was coherent enough, I did not plan this ask at all, it was all streams of consciousness.

So before I get to the actual material of your rant—of which I agree with—I want to go on a tangent. Bad people as a category are not “dehumanized.” Dehumanization is the act of stripping someone or a group of people of their humanity as a tool of oppression, and it must come with material consequences. Saying that a continent of people are only capable of non-human animal intelligence to justify centuries of enslavement is dehumanization. Saying that a country of people are born terrorists to justify flattening their homeland and claiming it by a different name is dehumanization. Claiming that the man who called you out on your desires to be the new oppressors is a literal demon wanting to destroy your heritage in order to justify leading an army to kill him and his charges while attempting to remove their ability to reincarnate is dehumanization. Calling a child abuser a monster is not dehumanization. It is just an insult.

In fact, the “human traits” of terrible human beings do not need to be defended, because more often than not the absolute worst human beings are materially protected from the consequences of their actions by people who want to defend their “humanity.” In mdzs, I don’t give two fucks about Jiang Cheng’s one “human” trait of loving his nephew, because his “inhumane” traits of abusing said nephew and everyone else in his life intentionally overshadow that by his own design. Jiang Yanli loved her son just as much and lost much more than Jiang Cheng ever did, but she didn’t become an unrepentant monster. Humans are not “monsters-in-waiting” whereby we must act as if every individual is always one step away from committing unspeakable acts of depravity. If that was the case, we would not have survived as a community-dependent social species. Therefore, I do not find Jiang Cheng as the most relatable character ever because I do not find the way that he gives into anti-human behaviors to be relatable to me on a personal level or to be representative of most people’s actions throughout the course of their lives. To feel pain is human, and to have outbursts about it is understandable. To abuse about it? To murder about it? To mass murder about it??? Absolutely anti-human, anti-community, and the type of behavior that can only survive and thrive in an environment that privileges people with those specific “inhumane” traits above everyone else. (One might even call it the environment of a corrupt hierarchy of power that mdzs critiques.) The exact opposite of dehumanization. So if I choose to call Jiang Cheng a monster, it is to intentionally point out the ways that his conscious actions as a character in this story are a negation of human life and community.

On that note, I’ve discussed how this fandom uses “morally gray” in this ask (excuse the fact that I switch between “grey” and “gray” lmao). To bring back a point from my rant from above, Jiang Cheng has his one (1) good trait leveraged by fandom to whitewash his crimes under the guise of “morally gray,” while Wei Wuxian is the one actually being dehumanized by that same label as people use it to justify his literal murder (and those of the Wen remnants) in the story, so that’s my feelings on that. Whether Jiang Cheng can be redeemed or not, I frankly do not care to speculate because the story concludes his character arc at him regressing back into Jiang “hunter of Wen” Cheng, still rich, still single, and still only loved by his nephew. At the end of the day, he is not a real person and I’m only here for wangxian.

[crossdressingdeath]

I think the worst part about JYL’s death is how JC has lied to literally everyone of how it happened, to the point where everyone, including WWX himself believes he personally killed JYL. At the time of Nightless City, WWX was pretty unstable, and because of the trauma he suffered, he remembers literally nothing except for the fact of he didn’t kill everyone there, and JYL died. As readers, we know JYL’s death was made up of some random ass cultivator that killed JYL, and her own choice to sacrifice herself for WWX. JC is also the only other person who knows this. And him just lying about WWX killing JYL, is so incredibly horrible, because he is abusing his knowledge of WWX’s shitty memory, and causing WWX to feel guilty for something he could not control. This is literally abuse 101, with the abuser blaming the victim for something the victim couldn’t control, and yet stans act like what JC says is true, and everything really is WWX’s fault.

Oh, absolutely. I’m not sure what’s worse, JC saying to WWX’s face knowing how terrible his memory is at the best of times that he killed their sister, or JC telling JL that for years knowing no one would ever correct him, condemning JL to (what JC thought would be) a lifetime of despising his own uncle for something that wasn’t WWX’s doing. With WWX you could argue that JC might not have known that WWX didn’t really remember the circumstances and so was pulling his usual “Oh everything���s your fault” bullshit without realizing that in this case WWX had no way of knowing he was lying, but that is a very shaky argument with very little support and is still incredibly fucked up because even if he thought WWX knew he didn’t wield the sword himself he knows WWX blames himself for everything that goes wrong in his general vicinity as a rule. Meanwhile with JL you could argue that it’s kinder for JL to have a single, easy target to throw all his hatred at (more specifically one who’s already dead and so can’t be forced to take JL’s hatred) than to have to come to terms with the complexity of the situation, but again it’s shaky and JL has a right to know the truth, not to mention JC doesn’t tell JL the truth even when WWX comes back and JL is agonizing over his fondness for the man who he was raised to believe murdered his parents.

Basically they’re both... really bad. But I think overall it’s worse with WWX because JC is fully gaslighting him here, and the stans siding with JC and saying that it’s true pushes it a little further.

[arikeia]

...how was JC not a victim? How did JFM not favor WWX? How was JGY not gentle, nice or loving toward LXC or his wife? HOW WAS WWX A MORAL IDEAL?

It's almost as if the OP is the one taking everything at face value ("WWX is the hero so he is morally ideal and untainted, while JGY is coded as the villain and therefore evil and bad in every single aspect").

To me, the BEST part of MDZS is that the hero is ultimately good but still morally grey, which makes him feel more realistic and (in my opinion) a much more interesting character, and that the main villain is not pure evil (I'd argue he shows plenty of genuine kindness to some people) but still makes terrible choices and hurts others for his own gain (justified or not).

In fact, if you pay attention, you'll realize that the main hero and main villain are so much alike - both are treated poorly by some (or most) people because of their family background and in a way feel like outsiders (WWX with the Jiangs and later in Cloud Recesses, JGY with the Nies and later with the Jins), they are both far more capable than their peers DESPITE their background, both are praised and admired while in a position of power and are made into scapegoats for every bad thing that happens in the cultivation world after their deaths (I can't remember if this happens in the novel, but in the live action drama WWX literally comments on how after JGY's death everything is blamed on him, even things he could have never done, just like everything was blamed on the Yiling patriarch when he was dead), and they both form a close bond with a Lan (WWX with LWJ, JGY with LXC) because the Lan brothers are the only ones who treat them with respect and ever bother to truly get to know them beyond the "that annoying but really talented drunkard kid/big scary Yiling patriarch" WWX and "son of a whore/chief cultivator" JGY.

The OP also seems to forget that while we, the readers, know that a big portion of the Wen family never agreed or wanted to partake in the horrors commited by WRH, most of the outsiders DIDN'T. In fact, your "morally ideal" WWX also reacts negatively toward them at first, before he is forced to let them help him and realize they are, in fact, good people in a terrible situation. Literally the WHOLE POINT of the WWX + Wens vs. the rest of the cultivating world conflict is that WWX is the ONLY ONE (well other than LWJ and JC briefly) who spent time with the Wens and truly got to know them, while the rest of the cultivating world only knows that they belong to a family that commited GENOCIDE. You're also ignoring the cultural differences - Nie Mingjue is literally considered by everyone to be a just leader, you might as well say his middle name is just and righteous, but he's just as happy and eager to have the remaining Wens executed. This is what is considered justice, a well-deserved fate for the members of the Wen family, and it's mainly because WWX opposes it that he becomes everybody's target. His growing power was becoming a problem for many, but I'd argue it wouldn't turn quite so violent quite so soon if not for the Wens.

I hope that at some point this fandom grows enough to accept that not all heroes are perfect and morally ideal, and not villains are pure evil.

I think some ppl don't realize the novel wouldn't exist if all the characters did as they said, MDZS is a novel that requires the readers to be able to read between the lines. When characters like JC, JGY and XY bring up their sob stories and claim they justify their evil, we're not supposed to believe them. A lot of what JC, YZY, JGY and XY say is contradict what actually happens in the story.

The entire plot is about misleading the readers with rumors and lies told by some characters and making us believe WWX was the villain in his past life only to find out WWX was always the moral ideal while everyone else was willing to condone torture and murder of innocents (in peacetime), or was actively targeting WWX out of greed for his power.

So no, JC isn't a a good person or a victim, JFM didn't favor WWX and he didn't hate JC, JGY is not actually gentle, nice or loving towards anybody, and XY isn't in any way fair. Those ppl all lie to justify their shitty behavior, and if we pay attention to what we're reading beyond just believing everything every character says, it's kind of obvious.

[ziwangye]

so i really don’t agree with the novel painting jc in a bad light in terms of helping the common folk of the yunmeng area,     apart from it just not vibing with my own hc of jc being a darling of yunmeng,    a doted on young master because they watched him grow and YunmengJiang is stated to be unlike the other great sects in their receptiveness of common folk as opposed to living distanced from them,    i also dislike it because it just wouldn’t make sense of someone who literally saved that area and worked restlessly to rebuild it.    it’s stated in the novel that the common folk didn’t really know why the sects were fighting,   only frightened that they were caught in the middle of it so obviously someone saving them from all that bloodshed and uncertainty must garner respect.    i do believe he would take up a lot of minor issues,   unlike what’s being said in that screenshot that he only deals with malign spirits bc duh why would he wait for someone to be killed in order to act ?      aside from that,    why would jiang  ‘ massive inferiority complex  ‘  cheng want to rebuild lotus pier and the yunmeng area to a fraction of its former glory and alienate the people they’re supposed to help  ??   like its mentioned in a few chapters previous to this how lotus pier is built bigger than it used to be but its less lively and its kind of insinuated to be jc’s fault but i don’t buy that he would allow things to be like that with how competitive and careful about his reputation he is.   

also why would disciples talk about him behind his back  ?    jiang cheng has a strong, abrasive personality that i will concede does become quite violent and slightly maddened in the aftermath of jyl and wwx’s death,   becoming obsessed with finding wwx’s spirit and taking down anyone ever fractionally associated with demonic cultivation,    but i doubt it would be to the extent where he wouldn’t have the loyalty of his own people.    i do conceded with some people finding it scary to approach him when he’s in his fouler moods,    almost always prompted by his fluke searches of wwx’s spirit taking hold of the body of others as described here.    but i really disagree that his infamy as a tempestuous character would outdo his good intentions and deeds with the people of yunmeng enough to dissuade him to seek him out for help because then why would he be there ?  why would he have rebuilt his sect if not to carry out its proper functions ?   and why would he disappoint his parents by not being able to do as such ?   in my honest opinion,    this increased demonizing of jiang cheng in the latter chapters of mdzs is anchored in attempts to victimize wwx further,   build sympathy with him because jc still treats him poorly in a ‘ wow look all that he’s done for you  ( golden core reveal ) and look how bad tempered you are.  ( telling wwx and lwj off for being in the ancestral hall,   emphasizing how lackluster lotus pier is under his leadership etc. )’ kind of way.

[jesterkoops]

I noticed that very often it’s men who defend Jaime’s arc and say his ending with C was poetic, interesting

Hi anon,

Yeah, I try not to read too many comments about the ending anymore, especially on social media, but when I did, I noticed that pattern too. I think it’s more often than not someone who is both a casual viewer AND a man, and I think the irony is that we see this pattern precisely because of the very thing Jaime’s dynamic with Cersei was meant to help increase representation of, and that the show completely missed the point of: male victims of emotional abuse.

Guys who are very familiar with the show and/or books tent to know and understand the JC dynamic better to sense that there’s something wrong about Jaime going back to die with Cersei, even if they see it more in terms of Jaime’s arc and cannot quite put the finger on the emotional abuse component per se.

But guys who only watch the show casually and/or aren’t as invested in Jaime’s story, don’t recognise the warning signs because society at large still sees men as “emotionally simple” (i.e. unable to feel emotions to the same complex extent as women, so who cares if they get hurt), completely in control of their relationships and able to “take it”.

When it comes to Jaime, I always found it incredibly disturbing to see the number of people who think he’s somehow responsible for Cersei’s behaviour and decisions and that he needs to “own up to it”, a narrative that the show has vastly and dangerously helped to cultivate and that comes very close to victim blaming. Yes, Jaime has made some horrible choices and committed some horrible acts for Cersei, and he needs to own up to those. But they are nowhere near as numerous as people generally imply. The reason people always talk about it as if Jaime had an infinite list of sins is because they attribute responsibility for Cersei’s own acts to Jaime as well. 

And I think that’s very much a product of macho culture, where men are seen as responsible for their women and women’s agency is seen as diminished when in a relationship. You don’t often, if ever, hear people say that a woman in an abusive relationship needs to take responsibility for being in one in the first place, that it was her choice, her mistake, that she needs to deal with it and carry the burden and face the consequences of her abuser’s actions, as if she were equally culpable. @ginmo once wrote a nice meta describing the twins’ relationship if their genders had been inverted and it’s so obvious how vastly different the reaction would have been had Jaime been the woman and Cersei the man. 

The other reason why I think some (men) see this ending as poetic is because they’re trying to overcompensate for sexist culture without realizing that they’re coming around full circle straight back into sexist culture. The idea is that it’s the man, for once, who’s giving everything up for the woman and is so dedicated to her to the extent that he’s willing to die with her when we are so used to seeing men being portrayed as the ones who aren’t as committed to their partners as the women. But just like in every aspect of equality, it doesn’t mean taking the parts of our culture that are toxic and unhealthy and ensuring that both genders engage in it: just as it’s not progressive to expect women to be considered “strong” only if they adopt stereotypically masculine traits, it isn’t progressive to expect men to be considered “committed and sensitive” only if they engage in that kind of identity and individuality erasure women have been expected to engage in in relationships for centuries. 

I don’t expect the general audience, or even the actors tbh, to engage in this kind of deep thinking when discussing the ending, so the best I can do is roll my eyes and shake my head at how many points are being missed. What angers me is that part of the power of Jaime’s arc was precisely to get people to think and reconsider this kind of dynamic from an angle it’s so rarely, if ever, tackled from and they failed spectacularly at it in the worst possible way imaginable. Instead, they basically provided fodder for the damaging and regressive view that men cannot be victims of emotional abuse and that people with baggage are unfit to live and rebuild a life for themselves.

[annalacerda17]

Actually, the Jiangs should have done something - anything - to prepare for an attack, because it was very obvious that an attack was coming. It was, as op said, inevitable. But YZY was too classist and thought the Wens of all people wouldn't dare.

When the Wens arrived (again, as op already said) what they actually wanted was the place. If the Jiangs had surrendered they could've bought enough time to at least save themselves and their disciples, they could've loved to fight another day. It was YZY who escalated the situation into an all out fight by attacking WLJ when she found out the Wens wanted to make Lotus Pier into a supervisory office. She did that because of her pride. In fact, when YZY attacked WLJ she made a point of saying she was the superior from a famous clan and WLJ was inferior - it's YZY's classist world view that wouldn't permit her to let herself become the subordinate of a person she saw as her inferior even if keeping her pride meant sacrificing the entire Jiang sect and even her own life.

WWX had been willing to sacrifice his hand. WWX had wanted to do something other than sitting on his ass and waiting for the Wens to come since a long time ago. WWX was the one who knew from the beginning that the Wens would dare to do anything. But WWX was the son of a servant, so YZY refused to listen.

Quite frankly, the death of the Jiangs was the consequence of long term problems that had been festering in that family for a long time: toxic family dynamics, classism and bad leadership.

YZY and JFM had a disastrous marriage - largely because the Yu clan pressured the young JFM to marry YZY even after he'd already refused and had made clear that their personalities weren't compatible until JFM was forced to give in - and that meant that the two leaders of Lotus Pier were in conflict all the time. If they couldn't even put their own internal problems aside to deal with an external threat, how could they stand a chance when one did appear?

WWX did what he could to save himself and the other hostages with him. People who say WWX shouldn't have done anything are ignoring the context in which his actions took place: he didn't just rebel out of nowhere. WC had dragged all the hostages to a cave where he planned to sacrifice one of them in order to attract the XuanWu of Slaughter and capture it. Now, I think everyone is quite clear on WC and his followers skill levels, right? There's absolutely no way WC would have been able to kill the XuanWu, he would've panicked and fled, as did in canon, and abandoned the hostages to die. Everything would still have happened more or less the se way, with WWX and LWJ distracting the XuanWu for the others to flee, becoming trapped in the cave and eventually killing the XuanWu, being rescued, etc. WC would still have gone back and been jealous that WWX and LWJ had killed the XuanWu and the Wens would still want to make an example out of someone because the hostages had fled, and they did want Lotus Pier because of its location, so it's the ideal next target. That WWX was someone WC was envious of is only a bonus for WC personally. The Wens would still have attacked eventually even if WWX didn't exist. The only difference here is that if WWX had done nothing at the cave, the outcome would have been the same but the body count on their side would've been higher.

The only reason JC and YZY kept blaming WWX was because both of them had a victim complex and insisted on blaming others for everything that didn't go their own way, all the while refusing to take any responsibility for anything, even their own selves. This, more than anything, is why JC is an effective foil to WWX and LWJ. JC acts like a entitled child all throughout the novel, and a violent entitled child at that. WWX and LWJ are conscientious adults who take responsibility for their own actions and are willing to be responsible for the safety of others as well, and they are fully capable of shouldering that responsibility. We see that contrast in the way JC refuses to aid his own people unless it can bring him glory or somebody dies first versus how LWJ goes where the chaos is and helps anyone with even minor things, how he's willing to be responsible for LSZ after WWX's death, we see it in how WWX is willing to be responsible for the Wen Remnants at great personal cost, on how he cares for the Lan juniors since the moment he's resurrected and the other juniors later on, etc.

In any case, my point is that the fall of Lotus Pier and the death of the Jiangs was largely due to a management and leadership failure, that was the result of preexisting problems that had been left to fester for a long time and made them unable to handle an external threat. It absolutely wasn't WWX's fault.

I'll repeat what I always say: wwx is a good person. a person full of empathy who helps others, no matter what harm it will bring him. based on that, he can't stand by and watch someone suffer injustice. wwx's "hero complex" is not a complex lol. he follows the jiang sect's mantra of trying the impossible, he does not accept injustice, he is a good and empathetic person. this combination alone explains his actions. "his actions killed jc's family" which actions? let's analyze, think about the scene where he prevents mianmian from being sacrificed and saves lwj and jzx from the tyrannical abuses of the wen sect. firstly, I will highlight the event that was not highlighted in the novel, but should have been

the cloud recesses library fire. the wen had no reason to go there, no plausible excuse. anything. just wen chao's envy for lwj being one of the best in archery ranking. independently, because of "disobedience", they invaded one of the major sects and burned a very important property >this< was the first great sign of war. the second was to invite the heirs and best disciples to an indoctrination and shove the irrefutable rules of lay wen down their throats

returning to the xuanwu slaughter cave, wwx caught the attention of the wens and saved lwj and jzx, indirectly, mianmian and later saved her from being branded with the wen iron, hurting jiao in the process. that is, he called the attention of the wens to him, saved everyone in the cave and in the end killed xuanwu

those were wwx's "hero complex" actions. and the lie is that the wens attacked the lotus pier because of them. Coming back to the lan sect library fire, the wens had no motive, so they created the motives to attack. they wanted power. whr wanted to dominate the other sects i.e. he would keep attacking until he managed to take down the rest of the sect leaders and claim the title as supreme leader

now let's talk about the lotus pier attack.

since wen ruohan planned to attack all sects, of course lp was on the list. of course he would go there. so don't you dare say "could have been avoided if wwx—" bullshit. they attacked the lan sect, what makes you think they wouldn't advance? that they wouldn't keep attacking? in the novel it even says that wrh had already dominated several minor sects before, the other leaders just pretended not to see. he was gaining power until he finally had enough strength to advance on the biggest opponents.

"but at cloud recesses it was just a fire!!! they took over the lp!!!" another part of the novel that unfortunately wasn't as highlighted as it should have been: the wens wanted to make an observatory at lotus pier. from the beginning, all they wanted was the place, because it was favorable. jiao even talks about the decor of the place. they wanted the place and the big difference this time was that they had an excuse. the excuse was the wwx hero complex? no. that's what yzy and the wens made it look like, but the excuse was disobedience. if the wens wanted to be supreme, no one should dare to rebel. "It's not my fault, who use my power to oppress and kill you, but yours, for not obeying the insane, unfair and absolute orders I give!" for fuck's sake, mxtx even uses a reason as ridiculous as "the orange ball that was drawn on that kite that fell looks like the sun, so it means a form of rebellion for our absolute Empire!", the stupid reason jiao uses for start the battle on lp. they needed excuses to even start the invasion

wwx actions killed jc's family you say. so was it wwx that made wrh a power-obsessed madman? was it wwx that burned the lan sect's library? Was it wwx who led an army to the lotus pier?