jesterkoops

[jesterkoops]

Nail on the head! I especially like the part about Helly starting to see the outies' humanity through Mark Scout because it parallels Helena starting to see the innies' humanity through Mark S.

I think this will also be deliciously complicated because the different corners of this love square feel differently about each other. Helly and Helena obviously both want Mark S (and Helena possibly Mark Scout) and Mark S arguably wants both Helly and Helena (despite the betrayal he feels towards Helena). But Mark Scout is, at this stage, still focused on 'getting his wife back' and both Helly and Helena are strangers to him. And Helly will probably not like/hate Mark Scout the same way she hates(d) Helena. That's probably why this combo meeting is the key to the entire story. Because that's the knot that needs to be untangled and that will unravel everything else once it is.

you're the main severenceposter i follow so i wanted to ask how you think a meeting between helly (innie) and mark's outie would go?

Hi! I think there’s a lot of different ways it could go, and it all depends on how far into reintegration oMark is when him and Helly meet. It also depends on what context he’s coming from, i.e. what his last memory is before he “wakes up” and meets her. I’m personally predicting that the innies will take control of the severed floor post-Cold Harbor and hold a sit-in of sorts, and oMark will wake up sometime in the middle of that. If that’s the case, it’ll feel to him like only a few seconds have passed since he reunited with Gemma and kissed her in the elevator, so him meeting Helly in that context would be abrupt and tense to say the least. And I’m not gonna lie, there’s a non-zero chance oMark wakes up in the middle of sex with Helly, because the writers are just insane enough to do something like that.

Putting the rest under the cut because this got long sorry:

No matter the context, he’ll be angry at both her and his innie, feel like they’ve stolen his reunion with Gemma from him, and will feel violated at his lack of bodily autonomy on the severed floor. oMark will likely lash out at Helly in a similar manner to how we saw him lash out at Devon at the beginning of s2.

But the thing is, Helly absolutely will not tolerate him speaking to her like that, and she’ll be prepared to give him a piece of her mind herself. We already know that oMark is highly avoidant and lives in denial about all the hell Lumon puts the innies through, but Helly is extremely persistent. She is perhaps the one person who could get through to him just how messed up it all is and how he is ultimately responsible for both creating Mark S and continually choosing to send him down to Lumon, even after he learned that he was being literally tortured down there. Every time oMark would get mad at her/his innie for keeping him on the severed floor against his will, Helly would remind him that he’s been doing that to Mark S every day for over two years. She will force him to confront the parts of himself that he tries to deny. We’ve already seen a glimpse of what this could look like: in 2x05, when Mark S retreats and becomes avoidant as a response to trauma (arguably becoming most similar to his outie), Helly simply refuses to let him retreat and confronts him until he faces reality. Honestly this whole scene just feels like a preview of what it’ll be like for Helly and Mark Scout to communicate:

I think ultimately we’ll get a repeat of the Markhelly dynamic from season 1, with Helly starting off “hating” him/seeing him as the enemy, but eventually softening and falling for him. She’ll realize that he’s at his core still the same person she fell in love with. This could also tie into what I’m assuming will be part of Helly’s arc in s3: her accepting the humanity of the outies. She’ll hear about the outside world from oMark and that’ll complicate her current anti-outie stance. Helly identifying similarities between oMark and iMark will also make her realize that maybe she and Helena aren’t that different, either.

As far as oMark’s side of things, I do think he’ll also fall for Helly despite the guilt he’ll feel about Gemma. Like I said, oMark is extremely avoidant, and he’s spent the past two years trying to disappear and feel nothing. Helly will wake him up and remind him what it’s like to feel again. And he’ll be so upset about it, because he knows he’s supposed to be feeling those things for Gemma, but as the reintegration progresses I truly believe it’ll become more and more difficult for Mark to avoid his feelings for Helly.

[jesterkoops]

And the world is like an apple whirling silently in space,

Like the circles that you find in the windmills of your mind.

[jesterkoops]

severance + guide to troubled birds

[jesterkoops]

I never care much for the award seasons but I hope Severance wins all its nominations. Maybe it will impulse these morons to create original stories instead of a million bad adaptations done by people that hate the source materials.

[jesterkoops]

Rhea Seehorn as Kim Wexler Better Call Saul 2015-2022 | Created by Vince Gilligan ve Peter Gould

[jesterkoops]

Sometimes I randomly think about how compelling it is to have the innie of the guy who severed himself to forget his wife and the innie of the heir to the company that holds said wife in the basement fall for each other, and that yet there are people who saw a generic marriage montage and went "I want that" instead. And I just can't even...

[jesterkoops]

I think people who insist that innies and outies are separate people are also deep down very uncomfortable with the idea that inside all of us there is the potential of becoming pretty shitty people given the environments/circumstances/events shaping our lives.

So it's easier to pretend CheGuevara!Helly or sunshine Mark S are not the same as Helena Eagan or Mark Scout than to consider life can turn Helly and Mark S into Helena Eagan and Mark Scout. Also because that means you are forced to empathise with Helena Eagan and Mark Scout, i.e., shitty people, which is something else people are very uncomfortable with.

[jesterkoops]

severance, 2.10 "cold harbor"

excerpts from the official screenplay

[jesterkoops]

Gwendoline Christie and Nikolaj Coster-Waldau + audio commentaries

[jesterkoops]

probably my favorite parallel in the whole show (after the shared smoke one which genuinely cannot be beat by anything in the world) they are both such deeply concerning people <3

[jesterkoops]

I realise a lot of the discourse around Markhelly vs Markgemma treats this as a classic ship war, but I realise that is sort of missing the point.

I don't think Markgemma is supposed to represent simply a past/old/alternative relationship, it's supposed to represent a past/old/alternative identity for Mark first and foremost.

We often focus a lot on how the dynamics between Mark and Helly and Mark and Gemma are different (as I have done myself here), but the point is: they are not just different because Helly and Gemma are different women and complement (or not) Mark in different ways, but because it is a different Mark. Many of the juxtapositions are not about how differently Helly and Gemma approach Mark, but how differently the two versions of Mark approach his partner.

The most glaring example is o!Mark's lack of interest in what his partner has to say: and note that this does not happen just with Gemma but with Alexa too! When he tells her she's from Minnesota instead of Montana, it's the ants vs plants all over again. This lack of attention to what his partner says is a feature of his personality, which might relatively harmless in the beginning but as the relationship progresses and the stakes and difficulties increase, it becomes a big deal. "I'm nervous"/"I said I love you", and so on.

Contrast this with i!Mark's laser focus on Helly's needs, his making it his mission to make sure she's happy, his not giving up even when she was at her most confrontational and pushing him away and not giving him an inch. It's obviously hard to say if i!Mark's attention to his partner's needs and ability to listen and respond appropriately is because of Helly or because it's a personality trait, because he's never been with another woman. But I would guess it's likely the latter.

And it makes me wonder: if the premise is clearly that the innies are the outies minus their life experience and conditioning, what in o!Mark's life caused him to become such a polar opposite of his innie when it comes to relationships? That is the biggest mystery at the moment to me, because with Helena it's pretty easy to understand how and why she turned out the way she did. But Mark? Is it all down to his relationship with his "misdiagnosed alcoholic" father that we don't know much about? Was it something about his parents' dynamic that imprinted on him? Is there more?

[jesterkoops]

the way zufu is modeled after the severed floor can be so personal

[jesterkoops]

I was re-reading this super long, 2-parter analysis of Chikhai Bardo and while I wouldn't go as far as OP in saying Mark and Gemma's was never true love (more on this later), or that it was all based on looks, I think it's a really good breakdown of the way I also perceived that episode and the reason why I'm so puzzled it seemed to have people suddenly romanticise their relationship and put it above everything and anything, forgetting 2 seasons of storytelling in its favour.

Putting this under a cut because it got way longer than I anticipated.

I think one reason why people are so touchy about any criticism or MarkGemma is that they embody the quintessential average heterosexual relationship and marriage. The relationship dynamic that more than any other is held as sacred in our society. To the point that I don't think people even pay attention to what is being shown because the moment you say "these two people are married and here is the montage of their story" they automatically project all those conditioned preconceived beliefs about what the relationship must be by virtue of being a marriage.

Never mind the statistics on divorce demonstrating that marriage doesn't automatically = some grand epic love. There is a reason half of relationships/marriages don't last and that is because they are often just build upon the motions of meet -> attraction -> date -> relationship -> marriage -> children (maybe), and don't withstand the impact with reality once it does hit. May the reality be life's hardships or discovering sides of the other person that the person smothered or downplayed in order to please and appeal to the partner during earlier stages in the relationship.

Which is exactly what we see in this episode. Like OP said, there's never any grand moment that makes you go "yes! these two are so made for each other!". It's all bland stuff that could be applied to any generic straight marriage out there. Granted, I don't think that you need one grand moment to cement a relationship as true love. I think this can be built upon small, every-day gestures, and by enduring difficulties and working through them together. I would go as far as to say that it isn't true that to tell a good story you necessarily need those epic romances; that there can be a good story in an everyday romance too. Everyday love, everyday pain, everyday struggles, can be compelling. To paraphrase what Dan said about what he likes about Markgemma, choosing to stick together when things get tough can make for a good story.

But that is kind of the point: sticking together is very different from growing together, or working things out together. Many people choose to 'stick together' and live unfulfilled marriages for the rest of their lives. And that is where their relationship was headed in this episode: Mark and Gemma weren't working through anything together. They were sticking together on paper while drifting apart on an emotional and human level.

One thing in particular that I find very off-putting about their dynamic is how as soon as things get difficult, Gemma is the one pining for attention and love from a distracted and uninterested Mark. Yes, she calls him out once about being an asshole, but for the most part she is just there waiting for his crumbs, and having to remind him to show her the affection she is showing him.

Having said that, and here is where I disagree with OP, I don't think Mark and Helly's is real love and Mark and Gemma's isn't. I think they both are real love, just different kinds of real love.

I think Mark and Helly's is the one that is build to last from the get go, simply because it is based on something that is just part of who they are as people that makes them not just compatible in terms of what they have in common (like their morbid sense of humour), but in terms of how their personality traits fit with the other like pieces of a puzzle and fill in the gaps the other is lacking: Mark is avoidant, but Helly is incredibly confrontational and doesn't let him get away with ignoring problems. She is IN HIS FACE like a dog with a bone whenever something is troubling them. And Helly is impulsive and destructive in that impulsiveness, but Mark is protective and knows how and when to throw water on that fire. He pays attention and is IN HER FACE whenever she tries to burn shit to the ground. What one needs to thrive is what the other is naturally inclined to provide.

Mark and Gemma's is the kind that isn't built to last from the get go, because its foundations are not based on nature, they're based on nurture - in this case the nurturing of society and the steps the average relationships goes through, with all the expectations that go with it. They are not innately made for each other, they have to work at it. It's the kind of love that can only last if both parties put an awful lot of work into it, because they don't complement each other in a way that comes natural to them. So, in a sense, this ordeal with Lumon might very well be the kick in the butt Mark and Gemma needed to sort their shit out. That it might make Mark realise what he had and took for granted, and truly make a change. It might make Gemma realise that she needs to hit him with a chair across the head when he acts like an asshole.

BUT.. and here comes the biggest but of all..

Mark created a version of himself that does not remember Gemma, never loved her, and now not only desperately loves someone else, not only is that someone the consciousness of the heir to the company that kept her in a basement for two years, but he has that "built do last" relationship with her. A relationship that is going through massive ordeals and is only growing stronger as a result. So now Mark might want to make all the changes in the world to be a better husband to Gemma, but not only he needs to put all the awful lot of work I mentioned above, but he needs to do it against the pull of THAT kind of relationship.

That is why I think the odds for their relationship aren't great. Not because they don't love each other, but because I don't know that it's a love that can withstand what's coming at them. Especially when it was already struggling to start with.

[jesterkoops]

Helena Eagan during the ORTBO.

me in the. me in. the. uhm.

[jesterkoops]

severance + favorite character: helly r. for @helenaeggan

[jesterkoops]

It’s funny how some people dismiss imark and helly’s relationship simply because “they’ve only been together for like a month.” their relationship dynamic is what mark and gemma should have experienced. imark and helly actually communicate. when imark is acting out, helly calls him out, and he listens. imark helps helly stay grounded. when helly feels insecure, he reassures her. they don’t let problems linger, they tackle them head on and sort it out.

their relationship is so beautifully written. the narrative deliberately wants the viewer to see this, but people are completely missing the point and dismissing the significance of their relationship.

[jesterkoops]

Helena Eagen & Mark Scout Severance, S02E06