#not that anything you listened is queerbaiting

[alikandhoney]

Men are written better in mainstream media. They actually get their relationships expanded upon so even when there’s no intention behind it, male and male relationships are more compelling because it is more likely that a women is written for the benefit of a man or plot point in the show and not to be developed and explored for her own benefit.

is there like,,,, a psychological reason my favourite ships are men ????

merlin and arthur. nick and charlie. alex and henry. even geralt and jaskier.

like hello ???? i’m a lesbian ????

[throne-of-crows]

Looking through the comments on a tiktok about smalltown boy being on Mike's playlist and it really just hit me how fucking stupid some people are. There were multiple comments saying "or he just likes the song" and comments along the lines of well I like such and such song but I'm not gay.

He's a fictional character. He didn't make the playlist himself. It is not a collection of songs Mike happens to like because he isn't real. To deny that there is any meaning to it by saying that him liking the song doesn't make him gay is the most ridiculous strawman argument I've ever seen.

Thinking a song about being gay in a small town could possibly indicate that the boy whose playlist this in on (who is living in a small town) is gay apparently is so ridiculous a conclusion to draw it must be satire.

[verdantmeadows]

Re: queerbait ships: we have Klance (the crew tagged one of the character vlogs as “Klance” and sold Keith and Lance shirts, amongst other things), we have Shiro and his husband (used Shiro as gay rep to promote the next season, whereas his husband is IMMEDIATELY killed), and we have that one alien lesbian couple who follow up their ambiguous lesbian romance moment literally with “.. now that we’re done having a lesbian moment, let’s go TORTURE PEOPLE” This show is a mess dude

I don't even know what to say to this man.

Well anyways I'm enjoying the show so far :)! Such a fun show! Wow! Haha!

[cipher-fresh]

Mutual #1: Ruby is DEFINITELY Missy’s daughter guys

Mutual #2: I wish 15 had condemned cops or something when Ruby asked why the TARDIS looked like that

Mutual #3: CHRISTOPHER ECCLESTON. CHRIS. CHRIS COME BACK BABY

Mutual #4: She Charley on my Pollard till i Scherzo

Mutual #5: I hate that Moffat is returning to write an episode. Can Steven Moffat kill himself please

Mutual #6: I love that Moffat is returning to write an episode. Can RTD kill himself please

Mutual #7: What if we kissed in front of Ianto’s shrine in Cardiff and we were both girls

Mutual #8: Chibnall’s episodes outside of his era are some of his better ones. I think for every cool thing he does there’s law of conservation of energy applies and the next episode he makes sucks

Mutual #9: I really do not mean to TJLC but i think the Doctor is going to realize he’s in a TV show this season. Bc i don’t know what to do with the death of RTD’s subtlety in foreshadowing

Mutual #10: I’m not misogynistic but I just hate everything about the 13th Doctor era and I just think it doesn’t have a single redeeming quality.

Mutual #11: You are literally an anti-feminist if you hate anything about the 13th Doctor era

Mutual #12: Spydoc are pegging each other rn in my Google docs

Mutual #13: Guys I’m getting a tattoo of the 8th doctor should it say “autism” or “lesbian” underneath in impact font

Mutual #14: It’s so sad that Simm!master turned into a puppygirl. Oh well I must comply to canon

Mutual #15: Was Thasmin queerbaiting? No nuance pick one

Mutual #16: Everybody listen to the TV movie soundtrack NEOWWWWWWW

Mutual #17: Tegan and Nyssa would have the Monkees on their sex playlist

Mutual #18: I just wish 14 got a whole season, you know? Or maybe two. Or three. Who needs 15 anyway?

Mutual #19: If David Tennant steps foot on a Doctor Who stage again I will kill him with my blade

Mutual #20: Link to pirating big finish in reblog. everybody please come to 6th Doctor land with me

[alexwilltellyouthings]

Ok I have so many thoughts about painland ending up canon or not and I. Just.

Listen I AGREE that their bond goes beyond being romantic or not. It's obvious, it's beautiful, I love it and I love them and their friendship and I truly do think it is important that media has this kind of relationship portrayed.

But.

But.

I would be lying if I said I wouldn't be disappointed if it doesn't turn romantic. It involves a lot of things.

1: I want Edwin to have that. He'll still be happy without it, yes, but god can't he have that? He's been through so much. He had a speedrun through his sexuality issues and confessed in hell. Like wtf. Can't he have that???

2. Bisexual Charles would actually be so important to me. And yeah he can be bi and not in love with Edwin but come on lol. The thing is, there's not many bi men in media. Even less bi men figuring out their bisexuality. Even less bi men figuring out their sexuality when they were raised in the 80s and knowing their best friend is in love. Do you see how many layers exist here? How amazing his story could be? Charles has so much we still don't know about him. And yes, I would like that one of those things could be something I relate to. Besides trauma. Call me selfish. And like he's so bisexual coded it would be offensive for him to be straight I'm sorry.

3. They exist in other universes. Let them be platonic there. Let them be romantic this one time.

4. I know falling in love with a straight person is a very common story and I don't think it's wrong for it to happen in a show, but honestly, it's not what I sign up for when I'm watching queer stuff. Think Our Flag Means Death. It probably changed my brain chemistry because anything less than that gets really hard to swallow. I know, we all have queerbaiting trauma, and I know this wouldn't be the case, and it never claimed to be something as queer as OFMD. But I got so attached that... Well, I wouldn't stop watching if this happens, but it wouldn't sit well with me. It's a bitter feeling, you know?

5. They didn't have anything be explicit, but come on, they did set us up. Charles got jealous at Monty, and only Monty, for that matter. I wouldn't say his thing with the Cat King is necessarily jealousy, more like protectiveness, but that can be disputable. And both George and Jayden said more than once that Charles' response to the confession let things open. So I mean if that door wasn't closed, then please don't close it now! The road until things happen can be long, dramatic, tortuous, whatever, there's many ways to tell a love story. But if I'm sitting for it, then I don't want to get shot in the face later on (unless it's for plot reasons which ok).

6. Have I mentioned that bisexual Charles

Anyway I feel kinda bad for wishing so much they get romantic because I see and agree with the whole platonic discourse. But yeah those are all the reasons why I can't stop myself. Have a good day everyone

[tastywormfood]

Ive tried to get my feelings about Moominvalley s4 into words, but im having a really hard time even accepting them. But ill try!

So here's my thoughts in Moominvalley s4.

Im 23 now and i remember being 12 - 15 figuring out my identity, and the only "representation" in mrdia being basically either "Bury your gays" trope or just queerbaiting. I grew up on a base level thinking i wasnt allowed to exist, and if i still dared to, tragedy would be my only birth right.

I believed i wasnt allowed to live a happy, soft AND queer life, cause no media i had seen had ever showed me that, that was a possibility.

Both the 90's Moomin series and Moominvalley 2019 are my comfort shows. I fall asleep to them at night, i listen to them like a podcast while im working or outside, they even calm my panic attacks. I collect cups, plushies, i collect the Comics and even some of the books.

I have 3 Moomin tattoos. This universe means a damn lot to me, and to thousands of ppl world wide.

As a queer person i find incredible comfort in Tove Janssons work, and you have to be a fool to be unable to see the way Snufkin and Moomintroll are written together.

I have been following this show since early 2020 and have watched interview to interview, ive listened to the podcast more times than i can count, and they knew what they were doing.

From the beginning of the show they deliberately wrote Snufkin and Moomin to be something more, they even confess In a BTS that their Moomin might like Snufkin more than Snorkmaiden. Even the podcast talked about it!! We are not crazy!!!

I feel incredibly gaslit by the entire situation, and suddenly im 14 again being told im reading too much into it.

Idk what happened inbetween S3 and 4, but it felt like all the love and care that came from the show, just disappeared?

Ignoring Snufmin for a second, every episode this season felt like a filler. It has no plot, followed up on nothing from the last seasons, and had an extreme amount of loose ends.

The former seasons, especially s1 and 2 has such amazing writting, character development and just a feeling of patience and of softness, i would watch it and think everything would be okay... But this season felt stripped of every inch of the care Tove Jansson put into her universe.

I want to talk a little about Moomintroll.

One of Moomins character Arcs is his want to grow up, its his need to be taken seriously and his need for independence and adventure. His need to step out of his dads shadow, and to be his own moomin! The character development he had built up through out the seasons, completely and utterly disappeared. There is no trace of anything in s4.

He is right back to where he started in s1, not being able to stand up for himself and say no, not having the confidence to go on adventures and right back to idealizing his dad. If anything this entire season felt like a prequal! Cause at least s1 Moomintroll wanted to learn, and was activily trying to change.

Moomintroll truly felt like a side character this season, i dont even think he has any important moments. Unless you count Comet in Moominvalley (which i dont), where all his independence has disappeared. Moominpapa literally has to push him out. He made one decision that eps, which was to float down the river instead of walking, which ended up being the wrong and slower way.

The regression Moomintroll went threw this season is heartbreaking, and thats not my Moomin.

Focusing for a bit on Snufkin, this season felt like a slap to the face.

They know that Snufkin is one of their most popular characters right? If not the most popular. If anything he is at least in the top 3, not only in Moominvalley but in the rest of the moominverse.

So why did this season feel like Snufkin erasure?

He was barely in it, and when he was all of that glow that normally radiats from him was all gone. He felt like the husk of a character.

This version of Snufkin was on of my favs, cause you could actually see his flaws and disagree with his actions. He had room to grow, and he did, he truly did.

He learned from Moomin just like Moomin learned from him. Their characters Arcs co align witch each other, their relationship and interactions are the pillars of the entire show. Snufkin and Moomintroll are what make the show proceed.

Finding the 2019 show for the first time as an 18 year old gave me confirmation and trust, that i was allowed to live a soft and slow life as a queer person. If Moomintroll and Snufkin could have that kind of beautiful queer slow burn romance, then i had a chance to as well.

They knew that a big part of their viewers are queer, and they knew how popular Snufmin was. They knew what kind of ppl they attracted, or they wouldnt have made it like that.

All the soft moments, the longing, the zoom in on eye contact, the zoom in on hand holding. They said trust us, they said be patient, and then they threw everything they had been building up out and set fire to it.

We got Queerbaited, and i truly havnt felt this feeling for a while. We got actual queer shows now, ofc they all end up being cancelled! But they exist!

This show felt like it was crafted with so much love and care, that i completely let my guard down. The entire queer Moomin community did a 5 year long trustfall, just to hit the floor the last second.

Season 4 of Moominvalley felt empty. It felt lost of all care and love. The first 3 seasons felt handcrafted by warm hands, season 4 felt machine made. Easy to digest, with no real soul.

Season 4 of Moominvalley feels souless.

I have chosen to live in a world where Comet in Moominvalley is a prequal to s4 and that s4 is a prequal to s1. The true last season was S3 and Moominvalley ended with Snufkin and Moomin walking arm in arm. Thats the only way i can Rationalize everything.

I have so much more to say, but ill stop here for now. Hope all of you are doing okay<3

[forestleavescat]

Took time to think on Moominvalley S4. it still feels bad

I’ve thought about Moominvalley season 4. Seen other people respond to it. I still don’t feel great. There was a great journey from S1-3. But this season sorta fell off. It felt like character development disappeared. And I’ve seen people say it wasn’t queerbaiting and I disagree. I mean, you gotta trust that a lot of people have dealt with it before. We know what it is. And the argument that snufmin never had a chance isn’t true. I was starved for moomin content between seasons and listened to the team discuss moominvalley. There were podcasts where they would chuckle and say that they were a little in love. They know the fanbase. The argument that it would never happen because they never stray from the original story isn’t true. Each version makes changes. And I don’t think that people can argue that they wouldn’t stray from the source material when the finale was what it was. They completely turned that story on its head. I wanted to come back to the topic because I decided to rewatch the earlier seasons. I saw some of the ‘it’s not queerbaiting. They were never more than friends’ posts and I started to think that it was true. That I read too much into it. And then I watched The Spring Tune. And just. no ??? Ain’t no way there wasn’t anything going on there. And previous iterations usually had some level of pining while not committing to a romantic development. There were 100% moments, but it wasn’t like moominvalley. If you don’t care for the ship. That’s fine. If you liked the final season that’s great. But don’t tell fans that they can’t be upset about how this was handled. Don’t tell them ‘well you set yourself up for disappointment’ or ‘did you really think that would happen.’ It’s like you’re telling people who are disappointed in this happening that they were just delusional about it?? A lot of people, whether new to the community or not find a sense of belonging in queer media. It’s something welcoming and friendly. Especially if you’re either trying to figure out your identity or find comfort in media that embraces similar identities. Maybe it’s fans that grew up with it and found a sense of comfort with the close and romantically ambiguous relationship between snufkin and moomin and when you start to watch moominvalley it really does seem like there’s a chance compared to other iterations. The creators seem to support this. They acknowledge it outright. It seems more possible than ever. Or you’re just getting into the moomins. The way this show explores their relationship early on is something that really did help people with their identities. And when a show seems like it’s heading there and then pulls back completely in the final season it sucks. And it makes it so much worse when people say ‘well duh, of course it wouldn’t have happened.’ And moominvalley felt even worse. Because the creators outright acknowledged it on multiple occasions while older examples of queerbaiting didn’t. The creators wrote what seemed to be gay ships but dropped it after securing money and views. But the team didn’t wink and nudge the way this team did. And just look at the Lonely Mountains. That episode was not only the largest step towards it being canon but it didn’t finish what it set up. Snufkin never did finish that chat that got interrupted. Which made it seem like something they’d likely save for the last season. If season 4 handled them exactly like season 3 without their relationship going farther that would still be an improvement. They lose all of that subtle ‘what are we’ closeness. You gotta know moomin fans live throughout the world. Shows that are explicit with that tend to get censored overseas. But it’s easier to get past that when there’s an implicit thing that other members of the lgbtq community would pick up. Then America in a time where laws are censoring gay stuff. I feel like it’s important to consider how important queer media is and to observe past instances of queerbaiting and why that’s as harmful as it is.

S4 felt like the July 1st of moominvalley to me. Just ‘okay we’re done no more gay’

[loulovingho]

I don´t think that both (Ryan or Oliver) ever said that Buck and Eddie are just friends when they get asked about Buddie. They both talk around it, imply it, Ryan came close with confirming Eddie is straight but neither of them ever said "there is no romantic or sexual relationship between them and there are not plans, I know off, that there will be" It´s the politcians way of conducting interviews and it´s why I hardly read celebrity interviews. If you can´t answer questions based on canon then I don´t know why I should listen to you. I always hear that they can´t deny anything because they don´t know what will happen but that is such a cop out, I feel. They can focus on the present and say that Buck and Eddie are not in love with each other. That is canon at the moment. Yes, it may not shut up Buddies but it absolutely WILL shut up the interviewer in that moment. There is no room left to further any Buddie conversation when the interview subject straight up said NO

Ryan has said Eddie is straight multiple times, they’ve both talked about the importance of showing male friendship (specifically between a straight man and a queer man). Oliver explicitly stated he didn’t want to fall into the trope of “friend realizes he’s gay and falls for his best friend”. Oliver most recently stated that his character’s bisexuality has nothing to do with Eddie or Tommy.

They’ve both been to media training. They know if they said “never gonna happen, let it go for the love of God!!” They’d have so much shit to deal with it wouldn’t be worth it. They’d get death threats galore, and there would still be people saying “they’re lying cause they can’t tell the truth!! Buddie canon season 9!!” They’d be accused of queerbaiting (which already drove Oliver off twitter), and being homophobic (something that Lou has been accused of, which, like, seriously???)

It’s not that they haven’t said it’s not gonna happen, it’s that certain fans and journalists refuse to listen to what they are saying and believe everything has a hidden meaning when it, in fact, does not. 🤷🏻‍♀️

[pippenpaddlopsicopolisthethird]

I'm so used to anime being 90% gay coding or subtext and probably 5% intentional queerbaiting that I get like overwhelmed when a show has a character who is directly identified as gay in the text. Especially if they're not a one-off side character or a villain. I recognize that the bar is on the ground but you have to understand that I'm simply not expecting confirmation of anything.

It's like getting used to the thin air in high altitudes and getting dizzy from a lungful of good ol ground level comparatively-high-O2 air. Like listening to faint whispers on a sensitive mic turned up to full volume and someone comes by and shouts at the mic with a megaphone. I really appreciate not needing the binoculars but i was still wearing them when you turned on the spotlight

[outrunningthedark]

Honestly props to Ryan. Whatever happened, he's been shutting down Buddie left and right now.

When Buddie stans that didn't want to listen or call him a liar start going on the inevitable "queerbaiting" attack, I'm going to have his back all the way.

Man told you Eddie is straight multiple times now.

He told you his character will eventually deal with his shit and find a good woman.

He told you Eddie is focused on himself.

He told you it's a you problem if you assume a man is gay because he doesn't fall into typical gender roles.

Listen to him.

It's the way Ryan came PREPARED for the promo after the first BuckTommy kiss 😭 (crying because I feel bad for him) He KNEW what was gonna happen the second Buck kissed a dude. A dude that wasn't Eddie. And that's when the word heterosexual started getting thrown around. That's when he started talking about his upbringing, explaining why showing vulnerability through his acting is bigger than sexuality. (I cannot BELIEVE this man was out here talking about homophobia fucking up the way he saw himself when he was younger and people just!! Ignored him!!) Now that Buck is a single pringle? More talk of vulnerability having no correlation to sexuality. Telling the fandom to examine why they think that way. Talk of Eddie not being there for Buck the way fandom would expect because Eddie's got his own shit going on, Eddie needs to focus on himself. Talk of Eddie settling down with a good woman once he finally feels ready. Ryan never wanted anything to do with this arc and his answers are telling us why.

[blackbird-brewster]

Meta: Jemily Queerbaiting

With the huge influx of posts saying 'Jemily is gonna be canon', I really appreciated seeing this post because OP was completely correct. I didn't want to write an entire dissertation as a reply, so I'm making my own post with my personal opinion on this. (All sources are noted in footnotes)

Before I began this rant, for anyone who thinks this is anti-Jemily. It is not. I have shipped Jemily for 18 friggin years and that's never going to change. This post is specifically my thoughts about queer baiting.

First off, I need to note that the showrunners (and the cast members who use social media) KNOW what a huge queer following this show has and that's why we got pansexual Tara Lewis in S16 [1]. Which, in itself, was SOOOOOOO important!!! Our first canonically queer main in SIXTEEN seasons was a middle-aged Black woman!!! That's phenomenal. (The fact it was horrible rep, because they instantly ruined her relationships once her queerness served it's plot point is a whole other post entirely)

In my opinion, the 'big Jemily moment' Paget posted about on Twitter [2] (and AJ hinted at during a recent IG live) is simply queerbaiting to get people to watch S17. I know a lot of you are newer to the fandom and I love your enthusiasm, I really do, ship and let ship, but listen, let's be real, Jemily is not going to be made canon. The showrunners aren't going to suddenly say (after 17 seasons) 'Surprise, Jemily is endgame'. This show has never cared about queer rep and now that CBS/Paramount have already ticked their queer rep box with Tara, they won't be in any rush to add any other characters to it.

Please buckle in, I've got a lot of thoughts on this matter --

What is Queerbaiting?

If you aren't aware of what queerbaiting is, here's a good definition:

Historically, queerbaiting has carried two meanings: the first is an act of aggressive heterosexuality to shut down queer subtext on screen while still teasing and catering to the queer audience in advertising, public relations, and fan engagement strategies; the second is an existing homoerotic tension between two characters played up on screen while met with derision by the professionals behind the scenes. [3]

The Medium article quoted here is from 2017, a time when parasocial relationships were really starting to take over social media. In 2024, actors are now only a mention or tag away online, they have direct conversations with fans, and this process has allowed for an even deeper form of queerbaiting.

Oftentimes online, actors are asked directly about certain ships and while some ignore these questions (usually to avoid breaking their contracts or other repercussions), others (looking at you, Paget) choose to instead tease fans about queer ships. She's done this for years upon years and if I've learned anything in the past twenty-years of existing in fandom spaces it's this -- don't hold your breath. In it's original meaning, for something to be deemed as queerbaiting there had to be malicious, or at least, purposeful intent to string queer fans along by teasing them with suggestive content about the ship in question, while knowing this ship will never come to fruition in canon.

The thing to remember is, Paget and AJ aren't the only ones who know about Jemily shippers -- the network and showrunners are well aware of this ship too. When networks/showrunners figure out they have a strong sapphic fanbase, they love to use that to their advantage to get more viewers and higher ratings. Queerbaiting is a goldmine to keep fans watching long running shows, look at Rizzoli and Isles, Supergirl, and OUAT for examples of this.

Jemily and Queerbaiting:

Ever since Emily joined the BAU in S2 (2006), there have always been fans who ship JJ/Emily (shoutout to the old LJ forums!). Way before celebs were just a tweet away from fans, back when all our fics began with disclaimers so we wouldn't get sued by networks, we went to great lengths to keep our fanworks far removed from actors/showrunners attention.

As far as Jemily goes, this reply from Paget in a 2009 interview with TVGuide.com [4] (which has now been deleted from their site unfortunately, but there are quotes on Tumblr still [4.a]) confirmed some fans' worst fear -- the actors had found our fanworks online.

TVGuide.com: Of course, a band of fans want her to hook up with Hotch.

Brewster: I know! I didn't realize that fans make these videos on YouTube? A.J. Cook sent me a hilarious one that made it look like Prentiss and J.J. were having a secret lesbian affair. You know, when Hotch was blown up in the SUV, we shot this scene where he's in the hospital and I'm standing next to him, looking at his bleeding ear. Our director came in and said, "Paget, you're looking at Hotch like you're in love with him. It looks really weird." So now, every day, Thomas [Gibson] and I flutter our eyelids at each other.

This was the first time I recall anyone acknowledging Jemily shippers publicly and at the time (Jan 2009), the show was still in Season Four (just before CBS fired both AJ and Paget [5]). Paget genuinely said it's 'hilarious' that fans shipped JJ/Emily. Even now, I'll see people say 'We know Paget and AJ have seen Jemily fanvids, so they obviously ship it too' -- but those same people rarely acknowledge the full context of the original answer. Paget not only thought JJ/Emily were 'hilarious', but then she doubled down and turned her reply back to how she and Thomas liked to play up the chemistry between Emily/Hotch.

While no one can say for sure which video it was that AJ sent Paget, just knowing they were watching JJ/Emily fanvids sent a bit of a shockwave through the femslash side of the fandom. To some it felt like an invasion of privacy, fanworks are by fans for fans -- knowing the cast were poking around in fandom spaces added an extra layer of worry around what we fans were posting online. Fifteen years ago, it used to be quite taboo for actors to outwardly discuss shipping or other fanon for whatever show they were in, and we fans were usually comfortably removed from the actors altogether.

Of course, now it's the norm for fans and actors/showrunners to co-exist online and interact with one another. This connection has opened new ways for shows to queerbait their fans. Pretty much every show has some form of social media account now and there is no doubt that the people running those accounts keep up with the most popular ships and hashtags. Not to mention that actors are constantly barraged with questions about whether they ship their character with x,y,z, or whether they think a ship should be made canon, etc. These interactions only serve to benefit the shows themselves, because whether the conversation is for or against a certain ship, it's all just free publicity (Why do you think CM now has a TikTok account?)

Every time AJ or Paget say anything about Jemily, the queer side of the fandom loses their minds. But this has been going on for YEARS now and every single time, it turns out to be nothing but social media hype and queerbaiting. Remember this AJ post? [6] Or what about the notorious reply by Paget to a fan, where she talks about how she and AJ held hands under the table 'for the shippers' [7] I've seen this cycle over and over again, so perhaps I am cynical, but I'm not getting my hopes up that Jemily will ever seriously be canon.

It's widely known now, after both Kirsten [8] and Paget [9] have talked about it, that there was an early idea where Prentiss was supposed to be queer, but that was ultimately scraped before it ever made it on screen. For context, please remember, this show has been airing for nearly twenty years. It began in 2005, during the highly conservative Bush administration. Queer people didn't have rights in the US, we couldn't get married, we were rarely protected under discrimination laws, and we could even be fired for simply being queer (in some states). Diverse queer representation on screen was extremely limited to things like 'The L Word' and 'Queer as Folk' (both aired on Showtime, so they were behind a paywall. And as far as tLw goes, that show was extremely male-gaze focused and is horrible in nearly all regards if you try to rewatch it now). As far as prime time shows went, queer rep was even more rare. Which is why Emily wasn't queer from the get-go.

Yes, things have changed since 2006 in terms of queer rep on TV. We have a myriad of queer identities represented in TV and film nowadays, which is why I think it's so easy for newer fans to say 'lf she was supposed to be gay anyway, they should just make Emily queer in canon!' I know this is what fuels most fans' demands for Emily being confirmed queer, and I get it, I DO. I would be all for it! However, I do not, in one hundred years, actually believe that is going to happen after they already canonically queer confirmed Tara in S16. The fact we even got ONE queer character is ground-breaking for this show.

It's also worth noting, that in the time between Paget's departure in 2012 and her return in 2016, she became very active on Twitter. This was when more and more fans began asking her about Jemily and after Kirsten's AfterEllen interview, fans also pushed for Paget to address the possibility of Emily being gay. 'Pushed' is actually an understatement for some of the outright harassment she would receive. (AJ received some of this harassment too, but less so because she doesn't use social media ass often) Back then, neither of them replied to these things directly. Yet, no matter what either woman posted, the replies were full of Jemily stans begging for her acknowledgement. (Did you know 'stan' is literally a term coined for stalker fans?) I remember one time AJ's friend was missing and she posted info on her IG about it, you know what the replies were? People asking her about Jemily. It was genuinely sickening.

Within this context, it was no surprise to fans when Emily came back in S12 , she and JJ's friendship was seemingly erased. The two women were rarely on screen together in the late seasons, plus the writers saw fit to even give Emily not only one (Mark in London, but two, on-screen boyfriends for the first time in the entire series. I personally do not think these changes to Emily's character were coincidence, I saw the hellscape of what people would say to AJ and Paget online and I fully believe that upon Paget's return to the show, the showrunners purposely tried to distance JJ and Emily to dissuade the more abusive side of the fanbase.

Can I prove that, no. But it is the only reason I can think of as to why Emily S12+ seemingly didn't care about JJ anymore, despite their deep and meaningful friendship. I mean, they both CROSSED THE WORLD to go rescue each other in prior canon -- but when Emily comes back, they acted like they barely knew each other. This was even more prevalent in S16, when JJ's main storylines all revolved around Will, and Emily barely looked at JJ in the entirety of ten episodes. (Remember how Prentiss didn't even hug JJ after bomb, but she did go hug Luke?)

So, do Paget and AJ earnestly ship Jemily, or are they continuing the long tradition of queerbaiting us? Who fucking knows, not me. But based on the history of this fandom, I think I can make a safe bet. (Interestingly, if you search all of Paget's twitter for the word 'Jemily' [10] she only has 3 direct tweets mentioning the ship. I don't think it's a coincidence that two are within the past few months since they started filming S17 (the other one was a RT of Kirsten (who tagged something Jemily)

This is all to say --

Just because Paget and AJ have publicly talked about Jemily,, this doesn't mean it's ever going to happen on screen. And you know what, THAT'S OKAY!! There has been this constant outcry (after Tara became queer confirmed) of 'Do Emily next' or 'Why wasn't it Emily with a girlfriend!?' and 'Jemily needs to be canon in S17!' -- as if people believe their ships aren't worth anything unless they are canon.

That couldn't be further from the truth! Fandom is built on headcanons and fan interpretations and rare pairs and all types of shippers. Your ship does NOT need to be canon for you to enjoy it. I will ship Jemily forever, no matter what. I don't think there will be some magical queer plot in S17, at best, we might actually get to see Emily/JJ on screen together again and after the train wreck that was S16 -- I'll take whatever I can get.

And hey -- if I am completely wrong, if Erica Messer pulls a Korrasami out of her hat, I will be ecstatic. I will be happy to be proved wrong, but at the same time, I'm not going to lose sleep over it and I'm DEFINITELY not going to go hound the actors about it on social media.

Sources:

[1] 2022 Digital Spy article about the importance of Tara's coming out

[2] 04/18/24 Paget Tweet

[3] 2017 Queerbaiting article from medium.com

[4] 2009 Broken TVGuide link

[4.a] Tumblr quote from the above TVGuide Interview

[5] 2010 Kirsten interview screenrant.com

[6] 2019 AJ Instagram Post

[7] 2020 Paget video on Twitter (via @karasluthqr)

[8] 2015 Kirsten interview AfterEllen.com

[9] 2016 Paget Interview CriminalMindsFans.com

[10] @PagetPaget search 'Jemily'

[alicentflorent]

why did you become anti rhaenicent? I remember you used to reblog gifs and posts about them not too long ago. No hate I'm just curious since you've been posting anti rhaenicent stuff lately

It wasn't until after season two started airing. First, the fact that the writers wrote them meeting in the sept while ignoring the pain and loss they both went through at the hands of each other's loved ones. It felt like queerbaiting, because rhaenicent will never happen and while the childhood romance is implied they resented each other for a long time. That scene could have been written to show to mothers grieving the loss of their innocent children, let them be vulnerable with each other but also let them hate each other and hate themselves over the fact they feel anything for each other that isn't just hatred.

What really ruined rhaenicent for me though was the dragonstone scene. We watched alicent get "punished" all season, constantly humiliated, her sex life being tied to her grandsons murder, not being respected by anyone because she chose her children over Rhaenyra. Then of course the only way she can redeem herself is to sacrifice her sons and she isn't just giving up on her rapist and war criminal sons but Daeron too, and her lover, her brother, her father basically everyone she loves aside from her daughter who might be spared. Alicent is the one who has to become humbled who has to listen to Rhaenyra insulting her without saying anything back, without even bringing up her murdered grandson killed by Daemon, who Rhaenyra brings back into the fold. Alicent reverted back to her teenage self and has to put Rhaenyra before everyone else but no one would ever expect Rhaenyra to give anything up for Alicent. Imagine the outrage if Rhaenyra had offered to give Aegon the throne to make peace with Alicent over Aemond's maiming? After Alicent treated her like shit for years? The fandom would absolutely lose it.

It boils down to hate it when one half of a ship even if I ship it is put down in favour of the other half of the ship. One half of the ship needs to humble themselves and jump through hoops to prove their worthiness to the other half of the ship. I hate that trope especially when it is a woman or poc or anyone with less power that has to prove their worthiness.

I enjoyed young rhaenicent, the childhood lovers who are fated to be enemies and the AU fics where Alicent isn't married to Rhaenyra's father against her will but right now after Alicent's treatment I'm struggling to engage with this ship in any capacity.

[lexcellence]

When I heard Gerry Duggan get asked on Cerebro, white boy to white boy, about the unfortunate optics of announcing and then immediately murdering the least white team of X-Men in years, I knew we'd be in for some shit. Man, did he deliver - after some evasive waffling about how ORCHIS is meant to be fascist, and how the story's point is to put the collective back of mutantkind even more against the wall than it was any of the last six times something like this has happened.

And, honestly? That's fair! This year's Hellfire Gala is ultimately the first part of a larger story, and history shows it's not going to last forever — hell, does anyone remember what the status quo was immediately before HoXPoX? At least this time most of the characters have implicitly just been sucked into Mother Righteous's magical Poké Ball, rather than outright killed; if anything, that's an improvement. I was fully content to just think "hey, not for me," and get back to ignoring everything beyond Immortal and Sabertooth, secure in the knowledge that certain topics are bound to be handled poorly when almost everyone in the room is white, when Duggan said three words that stopped me in my tracks:

"Keep the faith."

See, that struck me, because for a lot of us, this entire era of comics has been about nothing but faith. I've been reading X-Men, and engaging with fans since I was eight, and I've never seen the kind of collective buy-in from other marginalized readers that I have with Krakoa. X-Twitter (or, I suppose, X-X) has been Blacker, queerer, more disabled, less homogeneous than the fandom has ever been, all of us buying in to the implicit promise that this time things would be different. Sure, the line was headed by a presumably straight white guy, but there were other voices in the room for a change, and it really felt like they were going to be listened to. We thought we'd moved past clunky metaphor, past queerbaitimg and awkward racial gaffes. Storm and Kwannon were getting to do stuff, Arakko was full of amazing characters of color, Cyclops and Wolverine were probably fucking, we were hooked, and we turned out.

It's hard to overemphasize just how wild this was to see in real time. X-Men has always been allegory, sure, but it's traditionally allegory by and for the majority. For years, the readers who might really feel that resonance, those of us who have been hated and feared for the unforgivable crime of being who we are, we were afterthoughts, tolerated at best. We got scraps, "representation" from creators who seemed to be offended by the implication that we would ever want something other than being fetishized tokens. We were, as Hickman so succinctly put it, told that we were less when we knew we were more. And then, out of nowhere, Krakoa made us inescapable.

The two biggest X-Men podcasts, X-Plain the X-Men and Cerebro, are hosted by queer people. X of Words has been rocking the Black, queer experience like no one's business, Mutant Watch has been a joy to listen to and to be on. Not just podcasts, either, in everything from criticism to fanart to cosplay, voices have been elevated that were previously silent. I mean, hell, I've gotten paid to talk about comics, that shit never would have happened four years ago.

All of that was based on faith.

Faith that we were being celebrated, for once, instead of just used. Faith that for whatever growing pains there might be, things were going to be better.

And let's not fuck around here, there were growing pains. In the first year alone we dealt with everything from blatant whitewashing, to queerbaiting — any Sunspot fan can go into detail there, assuming you can get one of us to stop crying for long enough. While that was going on, we watched Bryan Edward Hill (the only non-white writer in that initial wave) put out a book that was, let's face it, at worst aggressively mid, only to be excoriated by certain portions of the fandom, and dropped by the office, while significantly worse books managed to hold fast — er, hold on. Not to say that Fallen Angels was without sin, mind you, the book was packed with enough orientalism to make Chris Claremont blush. But, at the same time, Wolverine's first year ended with him doing what he does best: trying so hard to be Japanese that I had to check to make sure he wasn't Marvel's editor in chief.

Through all of that, we kept the faith.

Things didn't really get much better, of course. Arakko was a fascinating concept, and felt like it damn near doubled Marvel's characters of color. And yeah, the ending of X-Factor was one of the most poorly handled racist messes I've seen this side of… well, any given day on Twitter. Sure, the whitewashing has never stopped, to the point where everything from X-Corp to this week's Hellfire Gala has had to be hastily edited between previews and release. Maybe we keep dealing with stuff like butchered AAVE, even more queerbaiting, Kate Pryde's funeral, the genocide of almost all of those Arraki characters, and whatever the hell was going on with Lost in Way of X. Maybe there's a very real argument to be made that there's something insidious about three straight years of voting to determine if characters like Monet (who, by the by, has been retooled from "basically Superman" to "Black woman with anger powers") deserve the honor of being written by a white man who's stayed writing with his foot in his mouth. I mean, hey! All my white friends in the scene say he's nice, just like Williams, or Howard, or any number of other crusty crackers who are still proud of tripping over the bar Claremont left on the floor in the 80's!

And dammit, we kept the faith!

Even before the issue dropped, the Fall of X has had a lot of us wary. After all, all of the promotion leading up to it has been white guys saying the minority allegory has had it too good for too long, which, whatever, press copy. We all know they've gotta sell books — they, in this case, being the almost exclusively white, almost exclusively male creative teams attached to all of the books in the line. Sure, as Duggan said, the 616 has a fascism problem, but it’s hard not to see this as a deliberate step back from the almost double digit number of non-white creators these past few years — almost as if Marvel has realized they can make space for a fourth ongoing by their favorite white boy if they just throw out a Voices special every couple of months as a containment zone for the darkies. And, hey, considering how good ol’ C.B. got his foot in the door, I can’t even fake surprise. At this point, it’s a minor miracle any time a person of color is tapped for anything that’s expected to last beyond one issue.

In this issue, as a reward for keeping the faith, we got to see something astounding, something that'd bring a tear to the eye of even the most cynical reader — a team that was only half white. My god. And sure, their brutal murder in favor of a team with Kate "Hard-Arrr" Pryde and the Kingpin(????) was only a pit-stop between the resurrection of the suddenly ashy Ms. Marvel and Lourdes Chantel being killed off for the sake of a white woman's angst yet afuckinggain, but ain't that the dream that Malcolm Ten or whoever died for?

The Krakoan era, ultimately, has been the same as every other. Empty promises by white men who show us time and again that there was never any point in expecting anything better. Any meaning we've found, everything of worth, has been what we've made for ourselves.

We've spent years keeping the faith, Gerry, while you and yours have continued to let us down. What the hell do we have to show for it?

[pearwaldorf]

I have been trying to write this on and off for a while. I figure the second anniversary of the show is as fine an occasion as any to shove it out into the world. It is not everything I want to say about it, but I think the important bits are there.

It is a human impulse to be seen. To be told, through art, you are not alone. It is universal, but of special importance to people who are not well-represented in media (i.e. everybody who isn’t cis, white, able-bodied, skinny, and conventionally attractive).   

This show speaks to me as a queer person who figured things out later than most of my peers. (Not quite as late as Ed and Stede but not terribly far off either.) It’s not super common to see queer media address this, and I didn’t realize how much I needed that reassurance until I got it. That it’s okay to find these things any time in your life. To be told “A queer is never late, they’re always fashionably on-time.” 

They’re not my first canon queer ship. But they are the first ones where I knew it was true from the get-go. Multiple people assured me this was the case. And yet, I still didn’t believe it until I saw it with my own two eyes. This experience is not unusual for fans around my age.  

After I finished up season one, I laid in bed and cried. It’s not something I thought would affect me so much, but it feels like a weight I’d carried so long I didn’t realize it wasn’t supposed to be part of me is gone.

One of the reasons people unfamiliar with the fandom seem to think it’s absolutely crazy (which some of it is, to be fair, but every fandom has that) is the way fans of the show get extremely super intense about it. It took me a few weeks to realize this is a trauma response. I’m not even sure “trauma” is the right word. It doesn’t interfere with my day to day function, but it lasted for years. Decades. So it was definitely something that fucked me up. And in the way you can only start to see something as you’re moving past it, I’ve spent a lot of time trying to get my head around this. (I don’t know if I have anything to say about it yet. Maybe I need more time to sit with it.)

I know this sounds contrary, but I’m really glad David Jenkins does not come from fandom. Sometimes it’s good to know where a line is, and others it’s better to not know there’s a line at all. And this is, sad to say, remarkable to somebody who has had to deal with this for so long. With so many writers and showrunners aware of the line, and getting right up next to it, but never crossing it.

Imagine doing a show with a queer romance and not understanding why this was received with such emotion and fervor, because it’s just two people in love right? What blissful ignorance that this needed to be explained to him! And then he listened to people’s experiences with queerbaiting, and went “Oh my god you thought I was going to do WHAT?” And then you go “Huh. That is really fucked up.” 

The problem with being told something enough, even though you know it’s wrong, is you start to believe it regardless. All the excuses and hedging. It’s so very difficult to do they tell us, when we hear from queer creators how they had fight tooth and nail to make it as gay as it already was. 

And then comes Jenks, just yeeting it out there: majority queer and (not and/or. and) POC cast, an openly non-binary person playing an openly non-binary character. The ability to not have to make one queer (and/or) POC character speak for everybody, so you can inject a tiny bit of nuance into the conversation. The way you can tell more kinds of stories, like the one where the smol angry internalized homophobe comes into his own with the support of a queer community, even though he was a giant fucking asshole to them before.

So many people were like “You can just DO that? It’s really that easy?” And wasn’t that a fucking Situation, to have that curtain pulled aside. What next? Majority POC casts with stories about POC written by POC? Absolute madness. (Please please watch The Brothers Sun on Netflix. It’s so fucking good.) 

And people will scoff and say “Of course a cishet(?) white man would be able to get this pushed through.” But do they usually? The thing I don’t think people understand about allies is they use their privilege to wedge the door open. You still have to do the work to get through, but at least you have a place to start. And it really fucking matters.

The press keeps trying to tell me The Completely Made-Up Adventures of Dick Turpin is the OFMD substitute we need while we float in the gravy basket. I’m sure it’s a perfectly fine show, but I don’t know who has watched OFMD and decided the itch we needed scratched was anachronistic historical comedy.

I want stories written by people that reflect their lived experiences, with actors and crew committed to bringing that to life. And I would like streamers and studios to commit to giving them a chance, and marketing them properly so people know they exist. 

You can keep people satisficed with scraps for only so long. At some point, somebody is going to give them a whole seven course dinner and people will wonder why they’ve been putting up with starving this entire time.

[alahelo]

You know *that* scene where Loki was about to say something to Mobius? The whole "If I don't make it back" thing? Yep that one. Listen, I wanna believe he was about to confess his feelings for his old man. I don't want anything else in the world than lokius getting canon. But also, I'm a child of queerbait guys. At some point, I'm pretty sure they're going to make it all about Sylvie. Like "If I don't make it back... please take care of Sylvie" or "please go find Sylvie and tell her what happened" idk. Because let's be honest, we can't win with Marvel.

[vorareromantic]

i don't listen to billie eilish but the response to her and charli xcx's feature is disgusting. people are ripping into her for her verse, saying it's predatory. even just a few years ago, you guys were calling her a queerbaiter for not being out but expressing attraction to women in a music video.

you forced her out of the closet, and now you're mad that she's embracing her sexuality.

clearly charli approved the verse since it was on HER FUCKING SONG. but queer women can never do anything right. if they're not open enough, they're ashamed and shouldn't represent the community. if they're too open about it, they're predatory and no better than men.

sexual attraction is not a moral failure. talking about sex is not a moral failure. this includes queer sex. this EMPHASIZES queer sex.

y'all's reactions to queer women experiencing sexual attraction to women is both homophobic and puritan.