#morally grey protagonist

[lilareviewsbooks]

Morally Grey Characters in SFF Books

Here are some book recommendations for speculative fiction (science fiction, fantasy, horror...) with morally grey or morally ambigious characters! This is definitely something I look for and I love having a twisted protagonist I can follow! Makes things a lot more interesting, I think.

The Poppy War, by R.F. Kuang

This is definitely a must-read when looking for morally ambigious characters, and if you've been looking for that then you might've seen this series around. This fantasy trilogy follows Rin, an impoverished orphan living in the Nikara Empire, who aces the Keju, a test meant to select the nation's richest into military colleges. Selected into one of the most prestigious schools, Rin must now face issues of colorism, gender and class, while the possibility of war dangles over the college's head.

Don't be fooled by the synopsis, though. The Poppy War is not a magical-school type of story. This series revolves around Rin's corruption arc - which Ms. Kuang crafts incredibly. The character development and the attention to detail with the world-building in The Poppy War are both impressive, especially considering that the first book in the trilogy was Ms. Kuang's debut. Rin's decisions will leave you screaming, crying and (you guessed it) throwing up, as she gradually destroys everything around her.

She Who Became The Sun, by Shelley Parker-Chan

Another debut, She Who Became The Sun is definitely reminiscant of The Poppy War in the sense that it not only features morally grey characters, but is also set in an Imperial China-inspired world. Here, we follow Monk Zhu, who assumes her brother's identity, sure that she is destined for greatness, and the people she meets in her quest to achieve this. Simultaneously, we read about Ouyang, an eunuch general who serves – and is lowkey in love with – Esen, the son of a province's Prince and the war they're involved in.

Ouyang and Zhu are prime morally grey material. Zhu is motivated by her desire to achieve greatness, which was profecized for her brother, and, as she assumed his identity, she believes is now her destiny. Ouyang, on the other hand, is a more spoiler-ly case - but trust me when I say his decisions are questionable at best. 

This is another case of masterful character development, beautifully crafted by Mx. Parker-Chan. Not to mention their writing is absolutely incredible here, flowerly without being too much, and their inclusion of the themes of gender is so well done. 

Oh, yeah, did I mention this is queer as all hell?

The Traitor Baru Cormorant, by Seth Dickinson

Since we're talking about books that are queer as hell, I give you: The Traitor Baru Cormorant! I finished this one the other day, actually, but this trilogy, soon to be a quartet, is definitely a must-read if you're into morally grey protagonists. The Traitor Baru Cormorant is about (say it with me) Baru Cormorant, a native of Tananoke, a small island nation that is conquered by the Empire of the Masks. The Masquerade's  homophobic and sexist policies affect Baru's family as one of her fathers is killed for being queer. Baru swears revenge, and she knows exactly how she'll exact it: from the inside. 

The Traitor Baru Cormorant follows her path of revenge as she inflitrates the bureaucracy of this Empire. So, as you can probably guess, it's a very politically-driven book, and it's for sure very dense. I would definitely recommend it, though, if you're up for it -- The Traitor Baru Cormorant has probably the best representations of moral greyness I've ever read. Baru's character is so layered and complex. Her every move is questionable, though you know her motives are good, all focused on the liberation of her home, Taranoke, from imperial rule. 

A Game of Thrones, by George R. R. Martin

Another dense, political one, but this definitely needs to be on the list. Mr. Martin is a master at creating dense plots with the most complex characters you've ever read - and none of them are good. Every single character (except for maybe Ned Stark??) in this series makes questionable decisions, and as the plot progresses they only get more fucked up. The A Song of Ice and Fire series, also known as Game of Thrones, the title of its first book, follows the political situation of Westeros and its surronding countries, as its noble families fight for power in the aftermath of a rebellion.

Although this is definitely a must if you're into grey morality, Mr. Martin's masterpiece comes as a big commitment. The series currently spans approximately 5,000 pages across five books, and it has been more than a decade in the making. Fans (me included) have been waiting for the mythical Winds of Winter for years, and after that is published, there's still A Dream of Spring, which hasn't even begun to be written. It's important to keep that in mind before diving into this one, but let me be the first one to tell you, it's definitely worth it.

I have a couple of more of these, so if you ever need a book full of morally grey characters, just drop me an ask and I'll get back to you with a couple more :)

[silkenrat]

Jennifer’s Body (2009) Dir. Karyn Kusama

Helter Skelter (2012) Dir. Mika Ninagawa

I, Tonya (2017) Dir. Craig Gillespie

The Substance (2024) Dir. Coralie Fargeat

[antifacatra]

Stardew valley is an insane game because it incentivizes you to kill shadow people for materials including monster eradication goals and then a shadow person goes up to you and goes “um did you commit massacres against my people?”

[sonik-kun]

The only time I character bash is when JC or JGY antis play the "my blorbo is more morally superior than yours" game. I become an instant hater the moment someone pits a character against my babies 😤😤

But jokes aside, debating who is more moral than the other in a story like MDZS is just wild to me, considering that most of the main cast are war criminals, murderers and corpse desecrators. Or, at the very least, would have a GBH charge against them if this was modern times.

None of these mfs are normal and I love them for that 🥰

[crimescrimson]

The Main House in Resident Evil 7 (2017)

[littlegaybean1]

Reasons why I hate each of the main 5 Torchwood members (these are the entire list of reasons unless I specifically say otherwise):

Gwen

- cheating on Rhys then retconning him to forgive her for it

- the speech at the end of the episode Meat

Jack

- making Ianto feel insecure about where he stands in their relationship (yeah ik why but he should have told Ianto that)

- trying to force Ianto at gunpoint to execute what was left of Lisa

- not bothering to check on Ianto after the cannibals

- the way he dealt with Mary then didn't comfort Tosh

Tosh:

- the comment in the episode Meat about feeding the world, disregarding the amount of pain that the creature was in

Owen:

- his sadistic enjoyment of trying to make Gwen and Rhys' relationship fall apart

- the stuff he said to Ianto in the episode Captain Jack Harkness

- the way he completely disregards Tosh and her feelings for him, they were obvious and Owen is smart enough to not be blind

- kicking Ianto when he'd already won the fight in the episode Captain Jack Harkness

- his general treatment of Ianto and Tosh

Ianto:

- literally nothing, everything he did that was morally grey/wrong was at least mostly justified

Can you tell my ranking of characters? I'm not sure if my no.1 is obvious at all, most definitely not clear, such a mystery.

[symphonyofsilence]

does Jin Guangyao play a villainous role in Wei WuXian’s story? yes. but is he also the Narrative’s special boy? also, yes.

I don’t remember the post, but the fact that Wei Wuxian, and by extinction, the narrative sympathizes with Jin Guangyao has already been brought up. He draws a comparison between himself and JGY when the crowd suddenly turns against JGY in Lotus Pier and wants WWX to deal with him, and again when the other Sect Leaders led by Sect leader Yao assume that the Guanyin statue is made to resemble JGY himself ‘cause he’s a narcissist, and when people are saying nasty things about JGY in a tavern after his death.

but another way in which the narrative sympathizes with JGY is that every time JGY is shown doing a shitty thing, it’s immediately followed by him being shown in a situation in which he is a victim, or has done something good.

he paralyzes Qin Su after she finds out some horrible truths about him and hides her in the creepy room where WWX finds JGY’s sworn brother’s head? A chapter or an episode after that we see him being trash-talked and cast out by other Nie soldiers when they’re drinking the water he brought, while he’s doing thrice the work they’re doing. we see him cleaning the battlefields and helping the commoners after battles, we see him voluntarily do the work of the servants as a deputy general when they lack staff, and pour people tea, while they rudely clean their cups when they take it from his hands (which NMJ does nothing about), we see him loyally arguing with LXC that he can't leave NMJ for his father’s sect after all NMJ has done for him, and learn that he has saved LXC. CQL shows him in his Meng Yao Era more. We see him repeatedly receive scorn when all he gives others is curtsey and smiles, we see beforehand the Nie Captain be an absolute bitch to him so I'm sure nobody in the audience regretted his loss, but even then we immediately get that jumping in front of NMJ and taking a stab to the chest to save him, and the teary banishment scene that cancels the "guy is now officially a scheming murderer" out.

He's being a bitch to NMJ in the Nightless City? He kills Wen Ruohan & turns out that he has been bravely spying for the Sunshot campaign all this time and they owe him their victory. But even then, he apologizes to NMJ, kneels down, and surrenders himself.

He's protecting Xue Yang? You have him explaining to NMJ why he can't go against his father's wishes, and how he's scared of everything and everyone because he was never given the luxury of safety, status & power, so he can practice that power freely. In the end, NMJ offends his mother and kicks him down the stairs (which he's well aware is a trauma for JGY). Which honor-bound ancient man wouldn't have killed the man who disrespected his mother and kicked him down the stairs? What would have NMJ done had this been done to him? But even then, in the book, the narrative does even more to make JGY sympathetic, LXC comes to NMJ to calm him down, and he says that JGY's in a difficult situation right now. His stepmother beats him & his father doesn't listen to anything he says anymore. Otherwise, he wouldn't have talked back to NMJ. & after that, NMJ's qi deviation happens when he drops eaves on this conversation between LXC & JGY:

I mean if you've tried to murder him thrice, shoved him down the stairs, & called him a whoreson, taken any opportunity to scold him, & you don't like it when he talks back to you, at least let him talk behind your back. He's not even lying or being disrespectful or anything.

He retaliates against WWX & LWJ’s attack by showing WWX as a villain and the way he has killed NMJ comes to light? a few chapters later WWX is surprised that JGY hasn’t visited LXC to demand a search but to tell him that he has prevented everyone from searching the CR and thinks it’s best if LXC, whenever it’s convenient for him opens the doors of the CR so JGY can get this search over with and shut the other sects up. And reassures him that he won’t let LWJ’s reputation be tarnished in any way. (At the stairs of Jinlintai, JGY knew fully well that LWJ was doing what he was doing because he was in love with WWX, as we learn at the Guanyin temple, but he loudly suggested that LWJ is being deceived in front of the crowd to save LXC's brother reputation.) The Donghua even has a wartime flashback from a young Meng Yao saving LXC, feeding him, hiding him, washing his clothes, getting beaten up by the Wen soldiers to keep LXC safe, and even then bringing back food for him with a smile.

He takes everyone hostage, twice (his hostages are children the first time) and is at the peak of his villain moment? You have the whole Guanyin temple thing happening. (which, personally for me, was what really elevated him from an interesting character to my poor little mew mew in my eyes.)

When JGY kneels down, WWX feels uncomfortable. He feels embarrassed on his behalf:

the same effect of inducing pity & sympathy for him is achieved in the show by somber music swelling in this scene, reaction shots, slow-mo, and a wide-shot of everyone in the temple as JGY kneels down to make him look especially small, while almost 2/3 of the shot is of the candles of the Guyanin temple. in the exposition scene when LXC kneels down to hear JGY out, the statue of Guanyin is between them. THE LOCATION OF ALL OF JGY TRAGIC EXPOSITIONS IS A GYANYIN TEMPLE! The temple of the bodhisattva of mercy who is considered to be the physical embodiment of compassion!

And the sympathetic reaction shots when he talks about JGS continue throughout the scene.

then we learn that he had to marry Qin Su because she was already pregnant and he didn’t want QS & JRS to have his and his mother’s fate and that the reason they had to rush things through like this and conceive a child was that JGS might have further caused problems for their marriage because he really disliked his son. and that if a political fall-out happened between Jin & the Qin clan, JGY would get the burn of it. (still a shitty act, but you can’t help but understand where he’s coming from & pity him), he goes on about his father kicking him down the stairs of Jinlintai on his birthday while celebrating JZX’s birthday, we learn about his childhood in the brothel, about JGS saying that he could save Meng Shi but he didn’t ‘cause she would be too much trouble, and that their son wasn’t worth mentioning, we see JGY & SMS deep connection, the show gives us some very good Xiao Shushu & A-Ling moments, & even though it’s been always clear & is especially clear during the whole Guanyin temple scene, we see truly see the depth of love, respect, and loyalty JGY has toward LXC. 

We see him in the Villainous Friends chapter telling Xue Yang that he can vandalize people's shops and restaurants for no reason, only under the condition that he doesn't wear the Jin uniform. But it's immediately followed by the mention of the bruise on his head given to him by his stepmother because she can't vent her anger on her cheating husband, who JGY has to retrieve from brothels every night to ensure his safe stay in Jinlintai for another day. We see him massacre the He sect, and right after that, he goes to retrieve his father from the brothel and hears those awful things and you can't help but sympathize with him.

Because what is really important is that you understand Jin Guangyao. There are about 14 chapters in the book and 4 episodes in the show of JGY explaining himself while crying on the floor because it's less about "Jiggy eVIL" & more about look what the society who turned his back on him & his mother when they needed their help, and sneered at them when they tried to improve their situation, and never forgave JGY for being born has done to this man to make him do such horrendous deeds. (And his sword's name is Hensheng. Meaning "hate to be born". They made him never forgive himself for being born either.)

So by saying that X & Y has happened to JGY, and so what he does is for self-preservation, nobody's JUSTIFYING his genocides, & nobody's denying that JGY had a choice in everything he did. Even if his other option was to accept his place, sit down, shut up, and suffer in silence, NOT murdering a whole sect that includes children by doing experiments on them is the better option. The point is that it's not the point. JGY's atrocities are only means in the story to tell the cautionary tale of a classist, cruel society. The things that JGY has gone through cannot be erased from the conversations because "JGY EvIl. Periodt." The Narrative doesn't want the reader to do that! It's specifically structured to put the reason JGY's got to this point on the forefront every time he does a crime. The fight with NMJ's fierce corpse ends as quickly as it begins. The Climax of the story is mostly JGY's monologues. 14 chapters of monologues cannot be dismissed as JGY gaslighting LXC & shedding crocodile tears.

in a story that has Wei WuXian as a protagonist, and literally starts with the monster the society has made of him through rumors and has this theme going on through the rest of the story, especially with JC, and baseless accusations are the first thing that happens when JGY's secrets are out in the Lotus Pier, and then ends with society making a monster out of JGY after his death through rumors when Sect Leader Yao speculates that the statue's face is modeled after JGY himself (which WWX especially comments on), and in the tavern when people made such crude remarks that even those who were participating in the conversation felt uncomfortable, I think it's clear what and who the real villain is.

MXTX could have written people talking about literally any real atrocity that JGY has done, but instead, they talk about what he hasn’t done and read the worst out of his every action in life.

And actually, with everything that JGY has been through, he’s not even the worst case that could come out of his situation. He did have good intentions. For all his genocides, unlike Xue Yang, he didn't actually want to see the world burn. He did help the innocent common folk. He helped them during the sunshot campaign, and with the watchtowers, he fought against systematic corruption, and he treated everyone with respect. He rescued LXC and QS. We don’t know how many others he has personally saved. It's that the means he had to use to have the power to help the poor was incredibly dirty because he was playing an unfair game that was especially designed against him. (I'm not saying helping the poor was his only objective when he tried to gain his father's approval and a secure place in Jinlintai for himself. Though it's sad that he had to fight for these things at all.) The best he could honorably do was be NMJ's deputy general, which didn't save him from being bullied and people cleaning the cups they took from his hands. He knew that if he tried to help the innocent without having the political power to do that, he would end up like WWX. But what he didn’t know was that he would end up like that if he, unlike WWX, played by the rules of the game and compromised his morals anyway. There was no winning for people like them.

Dismissing the good that JGY has done, the real desire he had for helping the poor, and what he’s been through cheapens the character, cheapening JGY’s character to a one-dimensional Marvel villain, and dismissing the commentary that he represents on society as a whole is a disservice to the story. And that’s a crime cause the story is great. 

his fall from grace, the heinous acts he had to commit to find himself the slightest bits of safety, security, and respect wouldn’t be that much of a tragedy if he didn’t want to be good and do good for people.

Then there is JGY's death and the framing of it. Here is a wonderful analysis by @sapphicdalliances of why his death wasn't justice and that was the point, how he died because of an act he didn't commit, and here are great analysis by @thatswhatsushesaid & @crithir about how his death is described as a gut-wrenching horrible scene framed through his horrified nephew & ward's eyes, both in the book and in the show, how it didn't bring the Nie brothers any closure either, and how through the lenses of LXC and JL, and by JC’s & WWX’s reaction we see his death as a tragedy.

His death is because of a dishonorable trick. His last act in life, pushing LXC away is an act of love and of forgiveness. In the CQL before that, he pushes Jin Ling out of danger, too.

As said in the aforementioned posts, after it, we don't see a victorious Nie Huaisang or Wei WuXian. In fact, neither of them is victorious.

WWX, and by extension, the narrative blames NHS for his scheming & risking innocent lives. WWX is especially appalled by NHS' treatment of Meng Shi's body. He points out that JGY, being a big liar with a considerable criminal record, will be forever accused of lying, no matter what. While he immediately after brings JGY's last genuine act toward LXC as proof that JGY couldn't have been lying.

In the CQL, he straight-up calls NHS the devil with the coldest tone he's ever had towards NHS.

NHS for his part doesn't seem victorious either.

Dare I say he even looks like despite years of scheming he was not ready for it when JGY pushes Shuoyue deeper inside his own chest. (Who would he be acting for at that moment? Nobody's looking at him. And he’s sweating!)

And I think there's a "no, he didn't" in his last "I don't know." To LXC (at least in the show) when he's insistently asked whether JGY was going to attack LXC or not and he insistently answers "I don't know". It's a confirmation without confirmation.

And then in, IMHO, one of the most beautiful and nuanced scenes, NHS finds A-Yao's hat, in the book, he bends down, picks it up, and quietly goes away (and that's the last we see of Nie Huaisang), in the show he wipes off the dust on it, and his hand finally gets bloodied, literally & metaphorically despite trying his best to not do his dirty work himself. And we get a flashback of A-Yao's childhood that I always assumed we're seeing through NHS because maybe JGY had told him that story. Not only does the order of the scene, combined with NHS' deep in thought look seem like it but also NHS cleans JGY's hat when in that memory A-Yao's mom tells him that he needs to take good care of his hat.

And that scene is especially beautiful because the show went out of its way to show their close relationship pre-time skip. And we see NHS keep A-Yao's principal by cleaning his hat when JGY himself is too dead to do that. Even when the reason for his death is NHS himself. And by NHS getting his hands bloodied while cleaning the hat, and staring at it with a deep, nuanced look, that combination of care & hatred is shown in that scene.

I think he feels empty. He's spent years after years planning this thing. It was his only drive. Now it's over. And it wasn't a grand, victorious moment. It just...happened. and it was something that needed to happen, in his eyes.

And he did love his san-ge for a long, long time before the betrayal came to light for him. And then he hated him for a long, long time. But at that moment with JGY's bloodied hat in his hand? I think that's the moment when love and hatred have both run their passionate course and they've finally reached each other in the middle and collided and ran out of strength and intensity and separate, clear meaning and they just take their exhausted leave together, leaving only a trace behind.

And most prominently we see a devastated LXC and JL. We see Jin Ling's flashback of when his Xiao Shushu gave him his spiritual puppy. We see him being the only one who could cheer JL up when he was down for days.

We see JL choosing to keep loving him despite everything.

His loss is felt and the memory of his good deeds keeps coming back in JL's narrative:

The Narrative doesn't just sympathize with him. The Narrative mourns him.

[crazypossumman]

I’d like to think that madness has many hands. Some cold, some warm—some gentler than others.

[hero-dualies-pog]

started playing my brother’s old copy of paper mario origami king and uh. wow. this sure is a game

[fortune-maiden]

Major kudos to Legend of Galactic Heroes for giving Reinhard a trolley problem where even if he chose to pull the lever he would have failed… but still having him hesitate to pull the lever when he had the chance and now he gets to live with that guilt forever

[asteriass]

Manga Recommendation: “Even Monsters Love Fairy Tales”

A while back I picked up “Even Monsters Love Fairy Tales“ & omg do I love it so far

First thing’s first, I LOVE THE FAIRY TALE VIBES ���️❤️❤️

Like, the art looks like illustrations from a fairy tale story book. The storyline flows like those grim fairy tales. Which all goes PERFECTLY with the main theme of the story being fairy tales 🤧🤧

I APPLAUD the artist & author of this series for how well the story itself matches its themes even in terms of the manga’s narrative structure & art

Another thing I’m really liking so far are the main leads

For example, the ML is so intriguing & is such a fun character to read. But i also enjoy how the story does not gloss over the fact that he is a very dangerous person & is borderline pretty scary

The FL on the other hand is an earnest and responsible person, a bit to much for even her own good in a certain degree. However, she herself at times borders being (if not full on) morally gray. And those layers in her character make her interesting to read

All in all, I’m enjoying the series so far. I like it’s more grim takes on the usual tropes, the gorgeous fairytale-esque art, & the dynamic between the leads.

You guys should check it out too!

Side note:

The ML is heavily implied to have dyslexia & I like how it ties in to the contrast of how he takes in stories, as compared to how the FL consumes stories 🤧

[sonik-kun]

I've seen a lot of people claim lately (mostly JC antis) that WWX performing the experimental core transplant on JC was emergency surgery, and I just have to stop them right there.

This was not emergency surgery by any means. Emergency surgery implies that it is something that NEEDS to be done, or else it would mean imminent death for the patient.

JC did not need that core to survive. He could have very much lived without it. He only needed it for revenge. To get back into joining the war effort to avenge his parents and his sect.

WWX didn't have to do it at all. Sure, JC was miserable, borderline suicidal. But I've seen and read aus where him coming to terms with his new disability is and can be very much possible. Hard, and a lot to work through mentally and physically, but not impossible.

JC did not force WWX to give up his core. It was very much implied that he would grow HIS OWN one via Baoshan Sanren. There was no way JC could have assumed that it was WWX's or anyone else's core for that matter when the concept of a core transplant did not exist at that moment in time. He was the first one to have survived and lived to tell the tale.

Plus, his mental state at that time was questionable. On the surface, he was willing to "consent" to anything if it meant getting his core back, regardless of how and why. But because of his vulnerability, that doesn't mean he consents to being treated like a guinea pig, nor should he have been treated like one for that matter. Although the intentions were good and pure, his vulnerability and naivety was still taken advantage of here. That cannot be disputed.

He also did not consent to having someone else's core (someone else who he cares for deeply, mind) being inserted in him. That possibility was obviously something that would have never crossed his mind in that moment. It is unfair and unreasonable to assume it would and claim he consented to something he didn't even know was possible.

He was led to believe that Baoshan Sanren could successfully give him a new core willy nilly, no questions asked because she was a fabled person with amazing abilities. It was that he consented to here alone, nothing else.

So yes, although WWX's intentions were pure and from the goodness of his heart, he did in fact mislead JC. The whole core reveal and the shock revelation behind it is proof of that. What would be the point in that scene otherwise if it was 100% consensual? And Jiang Cheng's famous "why didn't you tell me?" Break down?

It's okay to accept the moral greyness behind WWX's heroic actions, you know? It won't make him any less of a protagonist, nor does it undermine his HUGE sacrifice. You're still allowed to like him, warts and all. I know I certainly do!

[jackals-ships]

"jackal was this partially an excuse to be horny over Scary Solas As Fen'harel?" listen. we all know the answer,

[promptswrites]

Coming on September 15th!

-

Years of agony have left Jacob Matts angry and hopeless. Now, he only has one goal: to kill the High Priest and die.

This simple quest for revenge changes when Jacob absorbs a magical being and becomes the only one capable of stopping the apocalypse. He would gladly let it happen, but there’s an issue. If the world burns down, the High Priest will burn with it, and Jacob’s sworn to personally end that monster’s life.

That is until Noa Boyle, a man made of smiles and love, walks into Jacob’s life and threatens to overturn everything he thought he knew.

Stuck between a whisper of hope and the violent wills of two powers capable of endless destruction, Jacob faces a choice between dying with his past and fighting for his future… But when the battle seems fated to end in tragedy, it’d be easier to let hope stay dead. How do you even begin to fight something that’s inside you?

-

If you’re a fan of fantasy, morally gray protagonists, plenty of action, found family, big character arcs full of big emotions, and queer characters, this might be the book for you. ;)

Coming to Amazon on September 15th.

[irregularjohnnywiggins]

So my brother and I started fanficing how we'd fix the Bayverse Transformers movies, and along the way we came up with the idea of Organic Transformers that act exactly like normal Transformers but with flesh and bones and the transformers sound is it's bones breaking and reshaping and it's genuinely one of the most horrific ideas I think we've ever had.

[ecle-c-tic]

AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH