#morality council

[robo-milky]

Wanted to base the masquerade fit on Anthony Warlow’s version- looking closely, I just love the two bows on the shoulders??? Idk what it is but I love outfits that are huge and accentuate the silhouette- like it screams power-

[raayllum]

I get that in general a lot of kids shows do utilize the protagonists ('good guys') in ways where they're supposed to be role models, particularly because some do have a "lesson of the week" where the character does bad things, then clearly learns and explains what they should've done instead by the end of the episode.

That has just... never been how TDP has operated, and I don't get how and why people think we're supposed to take what anyone does in the show as being unilaterally good or evil. Particularly in arc 2; any moral simplicity that was hanging on by a thread in arc 1 has been taken out back and shot numerous times by now.

TDP very rarely calls anything Evil or Good, and when it does, it's always filtered through the characters' biases, and rarely does more then 2-3 characters ever have the same opinion on something for the same reasons. Soren and Rayla, who have inverted character arcs, are some of the only characters to ever use the term villain / good guys or bad guys, and are two of the most staunchly black-and-white thinking characters, heavily to their detriment, I might add, in terms of coping with the increasing complexity of their lives. They have cognitive biases. They're not always right, and are frequently wrong. This is true for everyone in the show.

The show refuses to condemn murder, indirectly and directly condemns the expulsion of humans from Xadia routinely (Evrkynd being a city for everyone, Ezran arguing with Karim, who is the most wrong about the most things), and shows a variety of viewpoints on all things.

The show understands that the choices people make—whether the same character trait is a flaw or a strength—as well as 'moral' choices are all circumstantial.

Are you wrong to burn people alive? Mostly yes (2x07, 6x08) but also no (3x09). Are you wrong to kill people? Sometimes yes, sometimes no, sometimes whether it's 'wrong' or 'right' doesn't even factor in. Are you wrong to use dark magic, or use the dangerous Staff of Ziard, or coin someone and condemn them to a 'fate worse than death'? Sometimes yes, sometimes no. Is lying or hiding the truth to protect someone wrong? Sometimes yes (1x06, 2x03, 3x03, 5x01, 7x04, 7x06) sometimes no (1x02, 2x03, 6x06, 5x08, 7x08).

Are you doing the right thing?

Do you have no choice? Is that true, or is that just what you think, or how you rationalize it yourself?

When is it right or cowardly to leave (Viren, Lissa, Rayla, Callum, Ezran, the Cosmic Council, the offer made to Karim's troops)? When should you stay? When do you decide to share resources (2x05) to your potential detriment or withhold them in the name of protecting yourself and your own people (Xadia and magic)? At what point(s) do you prioritize your own pain and grief, or someone else's (i.e. the Keeper vs Callum vs Ezran)? At what point is someone too dangerous or 'too far gone' to keep alive (Runaan about Harrow, Ezran about Aaravos)? At what point do you decide someone cannot change? When do you refuse to change (Karim, Terry) who you are no matter what happens, and when do you decide that you must (Ezran, Soren)? When is it wrong to use illusions to trick someone (3x09 and 7x06) and when is it more reasonable (2x03)? When should you be willing to sacrifice others (Rayla with her family, Runaan and Rayla with Callum, Soren with Viren) and when should you refuse? When should you sacrifice yourself, and when it is wrong to? Did you betray them, or did they betray you, or both (usually both)? When should you betray or stay loyal to your family? What is the right thing to do?

The show, tbh, doesn't know, at least 90% of the time. It's not interested in knowing. It's interested in exploring. That's the whole point. At most, it says you should work towards harm reduction, but what constitutes harm, and what peace looks like, is also something that greatly differs for all the characters.

Rayla is willing to sacrifice the love of her life, Ezran is willing to create weapons of mass destruction and wield one, and Callum used a torture spell on someone when he absolutely did not have to. The idea that any of the protagonists are meant to be paragons of unblemished virtue who are always 100% right, or that any of the antagonists do not canonically have a good point of contention with anything that's happened and are always 100% wrong, is reductive to everything the show is and explores, because it is Quite Literally not what the show does, ever tbh.

They literally spelled it out this past season as a core theme; I don't think they needed to have a character directly point it out every time a main character did something that was Kinda Fucked Up or Complicated But Understandable to know that the show knows it was Canonically Fucked Up or Complicated But Understandable.

There is not a single character or action in TDP that is always right, and there is not a singular character or action in TDP that is always wrong. Hell, even narrowing it down to "this is 'right' or 'wrong'" feels counterintuitive because it's so subjective within the narrative.

Every choice the characters make is often well reasoned, aligns with their values and world views, and fits into how they work through problems. Every choice has benefits and consequences, for them or for others. That doesn't mean it's Right for everyone involved. That doesn't mean it's Wrong for everyone involved. That's what makes the show interesting. Everything has nuance. Everything has Complexity. I'm not interested in a simplified version of TDP. I'm interested in the show as is.

I hope you are, too.

[mollysunder]

I know Heimerdinger's Christian Linke's favorite character, and I sort of tolerated it in s1, but now it feels like things are a little too indulgent. Heimerdinger gets to team up with Ekko to launder his reputation through Ekko and the Firelights. Heimerdinger gets the first narrative game and second character teaser in the promotional cycl. Heimerdinger gets to SING A SONG that's included on the s2 Arcane soundtrack (Spin the Wheel).

Maybe I'd be less annoyed if the show at least did more to acknowledge Heimerdinger's failings as a leader, but his character description can't even do that. This is how the official Arcane website describes Heimerdinger:

"Heimerdinger warned the Piltover Council about the dangers of using magic without tangible solutions for safeguarding its use. Learning from his mistakes with Jayce, Heimerdinger inspires Ekko to keep looking for a solution and works with him to solve the problem, instead of just offering advice."

That's not Heimerdinger's main problem! The problem is the fact he's the person most singularly responsible for the state of Zaun and Piltover. It feels like the show and the cast are just dancing around the fact that Heimerdinger technically has the highest body count in the show (Day of Ash, pollution, extreme poverty, etc). The one time someone puts him to task (Jayce), the show makes it seem like Jayce is wrong or overstepped, and yeah he did do it for Viktor's sake, but Jayce was right! Heimerdinger's bad at his job, he shouldn't be in a leadership position if he's a bad leader.

[threadroseart]

The Wizard Morality Committee welcomes the new member of the Mighty Nien.

There are no debates at the Luc is Grounded Council. The sentence is always already decided.

[the-senates-one-fear]

AU where Katooni survives Order 66 and somehow finds Hondo who just adopts her

Inquisitor: Ohnaka, is that a Jedi behind you?

Hondo, looking behind him at Katooni, who is currently deflecting stormtrooper blaster bolts with her lightsaber: Oh! Her? Noo, no, no, no, that's my daughter!! Don't you see the family resemblance? She takes after her mother a lot but don't mention that, my love died in childbirth and it would upset her greatly to talk about it. Look!! She's already upset!!

Katooni, mid killing a trooper, deadpan: Yes, So upset Father. Look Mr, Inquisitor look at these tears streaming down my face. >:|

[mako-mahko]

One thing that I haven't seen mentioned (and if someone has please direct me to it) is that there is a clear visual representation of the inaccessibility of the council room in episode one.

When Salo gets crushed under the rubble after the explosion, he becomes wheelchair-bound and loses the function in his legs. His first scene after this is when he enters the council room, and in order to get to the center of it, he has to go down two sets of steps in his wheelchair. The camera focuses on these shots, and I think it's a really interesting way to portray that inaccessibility, especially since a person with a physical disability played such a large role in the previous season. Not only did the writing in season one support the fact that the council was inaccessible, but this cements the fact that without Jayce, a council member willing to bring those without access to the other side of the table, Viktor wouldn't have had any possible chance of affecting change.

It stood out to me on my first watch because I thought it was a really solid visual way of showing that the council isn't as inclusive or fair as they portray themselves as being, and that in order to affect change, the people that don't have direct access to the council have to put themselves in peril in order to get there. No one on the council was physically disabled prior to the explosion, and it is only after they have been brought down to the level of those they preside over that their inaccessibility becomes an issue for them. That moment is a sound reinforcement of that inaccessibility, and I found it so cool that they decided to include it.

[transthatmasc]

Oppenheimer AU with jayvik creating hextech but it slowly morphs into a vikjayce origin story

[mearchy]

I actually think I put my finger on the thing that most bothers me about the perpetual pro vs anti Jedi discourse, which is that everybody argues for their interpretation of the Jedi as though the Jedi were a monolith. As though there were not 10,000+ of them spread across multiple temples, from many different homeworlds, with unique paths and individual connections to the Force. It doesn’t seem right to me to assert absolutes about what the Jedi code Actually Meant and whether it was too dogmatic or applied correctly by the Order or whatever when I think we can see in canon that you would get different answers about its meaning and application from the Jedi themselves, even the ones that inhabited and learned in the same temple. I feel like that’s the point of a lot of what we get shown in the prequels and TCW.

[creepedfinn]

cait defenders are the most annoying people in the world

[neonshadows9000]

Fic idea where even after his return to Gotham, Lady Shiva continues to train Tim in secret.

He still doesn't agree with her lethal methods but does eventually concede to learning them in case they ever become necessary.

His personal moral compass slowly turns more grey but he continues to adhere to Bruce's code of conduct. That is until the events of Red Robin.

When he sets out to get Bruce on his own he starts implementing Shiva's teachings more and more, first because the proper(-ish, vigilantism itself isn't proper but well) way would have been nigh impossible to adhere to with his limited resources and manpower at the time and later, after the Widower, because he's tired of watching his people die.

His hunt for the Council of Spiders ends up being significantly more ruthless, wether that be him not shying away from mutilation or straight up murder is up for interpretation, and so does his escape from the League.

When everything has settled again, Bruce is back and Red Robin has entered Gotham's roster of vigilantes, Tim tries to adhere to his old methods and pretend he never strayed from them but he slips up in high stress situations.

Cass immediately recognises the different methods. She questions him about it and he confides in her. Damian and Jason are suspicious but that's still largely due to their preestablished disdain for Tim and he doesn't let them get close enough to form any conclusions. Bruce and Dick are occupied with the new-old dynamics of the family and Steph is avoiding all of them for now. It's unclear what Alfred and Barbara know but they've likely noticed something.

Tim kept in contact with Pru and several other of Ra's former 'employees' that he's gained the loyalty of. They generally do their own thing but if he calls they'll answer.

It all blows up in his face when a thus far unknown group has managed to incapacitate and capture most of the Bats. The threat they pose is completely unpredictable so Tim acts fast and ruthlessly. He organises for the group to be decimated effectively, priority on taking players out of the picture. He lets his people use whatever means they determine to get the job done. He himself may not make deliberate killing blows but he sure isn't holding back to minimise injury.

The Bats reactions range from shock and sadness to anger and fear. The conversations following are not pleasant for anyone involved.

[singingcicadas]

Every time I see something along the lines of "Megatron was a slave because he was oppressed and forced to work in the mines, forced labour is slavery and oppression is slavery so what happened to Megatron was obviously slavery" a question mark pops up in my head and it's so fucking funny because. Social studies. History. Basic literary analysis skills.

Like I'm gonna be assuming whoever's in the 'Megatron was a slave' camp is talking about idw1 and tfp b/c those are the only two continuities that have Megatron coming from an oppressed background in depth. If it's idw1 then how could anyone miss the obvious communism reference in Megatron Origin? (Guaranteed it's a loose, twisted, villifying, Western-lensed, not-very-good reference, but point is that it's OBVIOUS and unmistakably RECOGNIZABLE.) Workers' revolt ring a bell? It's the first issue in the collection volumes so even if people run out of patience without finishing anything they should have been able to at least get through that before, y'know, making unfounded claims about canon. And the stuff I'm talking about should've been evident in the first chapter. Were the miners upset because they were forced to work in the mines? No, they were upset because the government was closing the mines and laying them off and replacing them with automation; they were upset because soon there would be no mines left for them to work and then they would starve.

'Slavery is forced labour' yeah but uh that's only one facet of it. Forced labour because of livelihood: 'I have to work here b/c it's the only job that's available to me and I have no means of obtaining the skills/licence/opportunity for a different job or bettering my circumstances, if I quit I'll have no income/food/shelter and starve out on the streets' is fundamentally different from forced labour due to state institution of ownership over people: 'I have to work here because I am the private property of the facility owner and am forbidden by law to leave or quit.'

Does anyone like, not see the difference between the two scenarios? Only the latter would be slavery since it has the defining characteristics of 1. legalization of the ownership of people and 2. restriction of liberty. In concurrence. The first scenario's just describing what every fucking exploited worker/peasant/wage-earning lowclass commoner in the world looks like, it's called proletarianism. It's a completely different class category in a completely different social structure that's in no way interchangeable or confusable with slavery unless you want to say that communist revolutions were done by slaves and every wage worker in the industrial revolution was a slave. why not go back further while at it and serfdom can be slavery feudalism is slavery indentureship corvee conscription are all slavery lmao way to rewrite history.

For the people who's only read MTMTE and nothing else there's even a specific scene in there that says this 🔽

This is talking about Rewind. The text literally gives us what used to be the equivalent in Cybertronian society and it's clearly not Megatron's class. And why was Rewind's class equated to slaves? Because they were considered disposable tools, not sentient people. The Ambus Test helped them get rights by proving their sentience as people, which further proves that they don't keep sentient people as slaves.

If it's TFP then did anyone notice that Megatron started as a miner but met Optimus as a gladiator? If he was so absolutely forced to work in the mines as a slave then how was he allowed to leave?

This is how Covenant of Primus describes Megatron going to work in the mines. It's "the only opening available to him". It doesn't say that he's assigned a master at birth and was legally obligated to go work in that opening on pain of punishment. Just implies that he'd be out of a job and income and would probably starve if he didn't. There's still an illusion of choice, of free will.

The closest thing Aligned had to slavery was the Quintession occupation era but the Covenant also spent a whole section talking about how it started out as a mutually beneficial relationship with the Quintessions presenting themselves as the more advanced race and Cybertronians eagerly accepting them as 'masters' (honourific term, not literal) in a pseudo colonizer-who-civilized-the-indigenous-barbarians-and-used-them-for-cheap-labour dynamic which got more and more exploitational as time went on until the Cybertronians had enough and drove them off. But even during the peak of occupation the Quintessions were still careful to give Cybertron the pretense of sovereignty. It was the Quintessions who introduced them to the electoral system and inaugurated the office of the Prime in the first place. The illusion of free will and equality was always there, despite everyone knowing otherwise.

Exodus is extremely clear in describing Cybertron as a birth-defined caste system with rigid hierarchy and little mobility. So that's exactly what it is. a caste system. Not a slave society. There's a reason they're different words, they're different concepts! I don't get why people would feel the need to replace one with the other, does slavery sound better? edgier? Is the purpose for making Megatron an ex-slave to have his backstory sound more tragic? to induce more sympathy? idc people are free to headcanon what they want but at least have the decency to refrain from framing it as canon and bashing other characters with it? Stuff like 'oh Optimus was so selfish/naive/entitled/stupid/insensitive/traitorous/opportunist/privileged to accept the prime title in front of Megatron the poor ex-slave' nevermind that Megatron had repeatedly expressed a desire for taking power through whatever cruel means necessary and was perfectly eager to become prime when he thought he was the one going to be chosen? Nevermind that the council offered up a chance for implementing all the social changes they wanted through legal means with the least amount of bloodshed and Megatron threw it all away b/c he didn't get to be in charge, by committing murder on the spot? Nevermind that 'Megatron the poor ex-slave' is a massive bigoted racist who looks down on Optimus' job and is disgusted by minicons and combiners and insecticons as well as being a devout believer of 'survival of the fittest and the rest don't deserve to live' -type social darwinism and a domestic terrorist happy to blow up factories full of his own caste members and places full of innocent people? Nevermind that Megatron and Optimus already had a deep rift between them because of Megatron betraying Optimus' trust by lying about his role in the bombings and Optimus already recognizing that their methods were never going to match up b/c of Megatron's disregard of innocent life and Megatron never really trusting Optimus anyway? As if making Megatron a slave somehow excuses all of that and pins all the blame on Optimus.

[mollysunder]

I have a problem with the idea of a Jinx redemption arc. It's not that I have any issue with the fact that Jinx will be viewed as a hero to the people of Zaun. It's pretty obvious Jinx would be admired, she did a thing the people of Zaun wanted en masse for a long time. The thing about Jinx being the savior of Zaun is that it isn't really a redemption arc, because that's still just Jinx being militantly opposed to Piltover, a thing she always has been.

My problem is that the insistence that Jinx NEEDS to have a redemption arc takes away from the larger complexity of Arcane's worldbuilding. What does Jinx have to apologize for in order to be redeemed? Why is there so much emphasis on Jinx's character specifically to rectify her wrongs? And the way the fandom often defines Jinx's wrongdoings centers around a vague discomfort in her acts of violence and general instability.

What does it look like for Jinx to be "good", when the actions of many well-intentioned characters that the audience has an easier time being morally-aligned with either generates very little benefit or actual harm? No one in the cast sans Jinx and Silco have taken the material steps (as controversial as they may be) to deal with the problem that is Piltover, and Piltover has always been THE problem for Zaun.

The concept of a redemption arc for Jinx is so backwards because it asks Jinx as an individual to do "better" when it should be demanded of Piltover instead. How do you live to a standard that makes you morally good when the environment around you necessitates violence as it's own form of capital?

Sidenote: This all leads to the one real worry I have about Jinx and Ekko's inevitable partnership. Ekko is the character the showrunners treat as a guiding light in Zaun, which unfortunately makes Ekko an agent of the showrunners' biases. Case in point, Ekko's friendship with Heimerdinger, the architect of Zaun's despair.

If Jinx and Ekko team up, there's a chance she'd up end up working with Heimerdinger too. And it's like, "C'mon, really????"

[cuppanova]

Archangel Castiel, the seventh heirarch!

Originally I planned for archangels to be a variant of actual angels, but I've changed the lore so that archangel is an inherited position only one has while six other angels inherit higher positions (principality, throne, etc). As Archangel, Cassie is the lowest of the bunch, but being an archangel still gives him a cool new form for official council business. He doesn't turn into it that much though

variants!

[the-senates-one-fear]

I could not be a Jedi simply because of the sheer hilarity and enjoyment in which I would find using a slugthrower in an age of sabers and blasters

[tigressaofkanjis]

[inkperch]

...Lmao, I knew Cait would be terrible at having a villain arc-