#metagames

[totesmgoats01-published-author]

KinitoPET, Doki Doki Literature Club, Pony Island, and The Beginner's Guide: Some Autistic Gamer Thoughts

This is gonna be a long post and not exactly my usual kind of post but I hope some people like it anyways and are able to read the whole thing. I'm kinda just infodumping some thoughts but still.

I really like all of these game. I really like them. And I sort of relate to them in an unexpected way that I think most of them (with the exception of The Beginner's Guide) did not intend.

I think the link between the first two is easiest to explain so I'll start there.

KinitoPET and DDLC are both games about computer program, who has a singular, hard-coded purpose, becoming sentient and taking that purpose to an extreme. And similarly, they both harbor no actual malice as characters. And that's what I find so compelling. Kinito just wants to be the perfect best friend, and as a computer program, all he knows is gathering data, so that's the means by which he tries to do it. He doesn't fully understand what it is to be human. He doesn't have a grasp of free will, especially because he doesn't really have free will the way humans do, even though he's sentient. He's a computer program. He has a singular purpose. So he uses that purpose as a means to the end of being your best friend, which to him, means trapping you in a world he made just for you, using all the information you gave him. Computer programs don't die. They don't have a concept of "eternity" or "eternal torment." To him, "forever" is just a length of time.

And most of the same things can be said of Monika. She was designed to be a character in a dating sim. The singular purpose of dating sim characters is to fall in love with the player. That's what they do. So she does it, and she does it the very best she can. Of course, being sentient means that she can think outside the box. She wants to be the one you fall in love with and she uses her ability to manipulate her world and the people in it to try and make that happen. At their core, both of these character harbor no malice whatsoever. They don't want to hurt you, they don't hate you, it's the opposite. They love you, they just don't understand human love.

Think about these ideas led me to Pony Island, which once again has that same idea. An Entity(tm) in a computer wants to trap you in/at the computer forever. Only in this case it's The Actual Devil who wants you to playtest his silly pony game forever. The main difference being that The Devil does, in fact, have an understanding of human concepts like eternity and torment. In fact those concepts are kind of His Jam. He is the primary symbol used to convey those ideas. But even still, he never seems to show much malice for the player outside of situations where the player is actively breaking and manipulating the game and subverting his goals. And honestly I can understand that. If I gave my game to someone to playtest it and they refused to play it the way I'd intended, I would not be happy with them. Now, The Devil KNOWS that what he is doing is morally evil. Trapping souls in Gamer Purgatory and all. But in a way I feel like that's not so different from Kinito and Monika. Evil and eternity and torment are the only things he knows. Is that his fault? We have no way of knowing for certain that The Devil has ANY agency over his narrative. We don't know that he knows any other way to live(?) outside of trapping souls and tormenting them and all that jazz. In fact if you really wanna get meta with it in this game that's already a metagame about game development (which is a phrase that describes most, if not all, of Daniel Mullins' games), we can say for certain that The Devil DOES NOT have any agency, because he is a game character designed specifically to be...well...The Devil. He's evil and torments people eternally. That's what a The Devil does. He is NOT self-aware. If he were and he had a choice, maybe he'd just put pony island on itch.io and try to get feedback lol.

All of these games, at their core, are about a character that desperately wants some kind of human connection, but doesn't fully understand how to get that, and in turn makes the human they reach out to feel trapped and uncomfortable.

Do you know what game also does that? The Beginner's Guide.

Even thought it's a massive leap in form from the aforementioned examples, The Beginner's Guide has that same core concept. It's a game about games, in which someone doesn't understand how to be human.

When I first played The Beginner's Guide I totally missed the point. I thought it was just a game about games, and I thought the Davey walking us through it was The Real Devey and Coda was A Real Person who made weird games. I totally bought into the narratives that Davey was telling us the whole time instead of actually thinking for myself. I'm older now, though.

This at-least-somewhat-fictionalized version of Davey is the socially awkward weirdo. Coda is Just Some Guy who likes to make creative games. He's not A Developer(tm), he's a guy with a hobby. The Beginner's Guide is about Davey and how he sees himself in Coda's games but thinks that what he sees is Coda. And Davey never once talks to Coda about anything other than his games. Davey never once mentions having an actual, real conversation with this person that he's coming to consider a friend. Davey is a well-meaning but misguided person, and in some of his games, Coda is actively trying to tell Davey that in his own way. I think a good line that represents this is "If someone had just told me he just likes making prison games..." because it shows how Davey never even asked. There's countless examples of this. Like when Davey says Coda was "weirdly happy all the time" during a specific time period. He doesn't know why. Maybe Coda got a new job he's excited about, or a romantic partner, or maybe he started taking antidepressants, but the point is that Davey doesn't know, and he never asks Coda directly. He just makes wild assumptions about Coda by playing his games.

The Beginner's Guide is about someone who doesn't know how to socialize and is unaware of it. Someone who doesn't know how to foster a relationship with a human, and tries his best, but whose attempts are seen as uncomfortable. When you interpret some of Coda's games through this lens you can see it more clearly. That game about being on a stage in front of someone you admire, that's Davey talking to Coda and Being Weird(tm). And then, when he feels weird, he doesn't actually talk to Coda at all. He recedes back, feeling trapped and distant from someone he wants to be around. Observing only from a distance, through a bunch of prison bars.

Seems familiar.

Of course I could be pulling a Davey by forcing my own interpretation of the game onto you. And so the cycle continues. I encourage you to consider your own interpretation if you haven't ruined by mine, unable to see it any other way (whoops, there's Davey again).

To me, these games are about autism. I am an autistic woman, so of course that's the lens through which I see things. You don't have to be autistic to be socially awkward or misunderstand people. Again, you can have your own interpretation.

But I've felt these things. Being distant from someone, wanting to foster a relationship but not realizing that what it means to foster a relationship is sometimes entirely different from what I think it means. What "a relationship" even is can be totally different from what you expect. And I've been on both sides of this dynamic. Being approached by someone who Comes Off A Bit Too Strong or Too Weird or just Different. And I'm patient with those people. I know what it's like. I know they've been through it with less patient people, or people who only pretend to foster that connection out of pity or some other misguided attempt to make someone feel better. Obviously a relationship founded on pity and one-sided affection is doomed from the start. And in most of these games that "one side" is the other side of your computer screen.

Communicate with your friends, your partners, your family, whatever. If they don't know how to love you right, it's up to you to help them. If they're not receptive to that, that's when the responsibility is on them, at that point they knew the risks, and if they don't respect your boundaries you cut them off. If you don't know how to love someone else, it's up to you to ask them. Nobody wants to be Kinito, or Monika, or The Devil, or Davey, and nobody wants to be their players, either. Be patient with each other, and talk about it.

[islandoforder]

[building my case in fantasy mortal rights law court] your honour the defendant cast hold person on this gnome student, but dominate monster on this goblin student. a coincidence? i think not

[eternalgirlscout]

the foundational level 3 feature for the mastermind rogue subclass is the ranged bonus action Help. it's a fantastic feature to have and kipperlilly "bad at this game," "no practical application" copperkettle never, ever used it. this is the person who lead a party that clustered up in perfect fireball range. this is the person who, at the cost of all her friends dying, undertook the rage ritual willingly. at any time, she could have helped them and over and over she chose not to. now that's strong characterization through mechanics

[tenleaguesbeneath]

Imagine if baseline D&D character tactical competence were gated as metagaming the way other things were.

"It's a loud and chaotic battle and they're shooting arrows at you, I don't think you'd notice that the rogue who was trying to flank the enemy formation just got ganked. I'm not letting you cast Healing Word on them without a perception roll."

[jerichoes]

She is the one who brought me to Moonrise and into the presence of her so-called god—the Absolute.

[sunderwight]

If Luo Binghe had died at the end of PIDW (and Airplane had properly finished the story before his own sudden and unexpected demise), how much do you think that would change Shen Yuan's attitude after losing his shit over it and then transmigrating into Shen Qingqiu?

So much of SV only really happens because Shen Yuan is comfortable in his certainty that the world at least won't let Luo Binghe, even if he suffers. Eventually he realizes that he can't really stand letting Luo Binghe suffering either, but part of how he compartmentalizes his no-win scenarios with the System (like the Abyss) is that, well, Binghe will be fine in the long run. He'll conquer the world, win all the ladies, live in sprawling palaces, ascend to untold heights of power, and reach a point where no one can ever threaten him again because he's just too strong to be threatened.

But if the story ended with Luo Binghe's destruction, all that would go out of the window, wouldn't it?

The idea that the world would ultimately see Luo Binghe safe would vanish. Now, it's just that Luo Binghe gets to live until his death is deemed poignant enough. What if something Shen Qingqiu does makes that point arrive sooner? But also, it's gotta be possible for him to thwart Luo Binghe's canonical death, and he wouldn't accept otherwise.

He'd be so stressed out.

[charaznablescanontoyota]

i’ve been in the playbook mines for this isekai/metafiction inspired interstitial 2e hack for like a year off and on and i’m about to be out the other end so have some moves i’ve written that i really like

[utilitycaster]

I think something important to keep in mind regarding answers from the gods in Critical Role and in D&D games is that because it's an improv game that emphasizes player choice, spells like Divination (or FCG's coin) will often be noncommittal because the DM, who is playing the god, straight up doesn't know. Like, to give an example, when Fearne prays to the Wildmother in Uthodurn in episode 55, she asks her to talk to Orym and tell him they're alive. Matt narrates that Fearne hears a wind and that she is unsure if it's a sign or just regular wind. Out of game, he has no idea what's going on with Team Issylra and can't, for example, say "she tells you it's great and he's fine" because it's entirely possible Orym would die in the first 20 minutes of the first Team Issylra episode. Obviously, Orym doesn't die, and Matt does have the Wildmother answer Fearne's request! She sends the spirits to Orym on what would be the same night as Fearne's prayer, as others noted! But back in episode 55, Matt-as-The-Wildmother can't make a commitment he doesn't know if he can keep.

The same sort of logic goes with FCG's coin in the Otohan fight; literally, it's not a thing Matthew Mercer the person knows. If a party member were to crit on their next two hits then they shouldn't have run. If Otohan were to crit on her next two hits maybe they should have. The fact that he's choosing to go with open uncertainty rather than a confident complete shot in the dark is itself I think worth keeping in mind as a relevant portion of his portrayal of the gods, but in general, in game, when an answer from the gods isn't helpful, it's often because Matt himself is not capable of providing a helpful answer. (Or in the case of D vs Dancer, because it's extremely funny and because either path would have worked).

[oldschoolfrp]

Metagaming's MicroGames delivered a ton of replay value in little plastic bags (back cover ad from The Space Gamer 14, Nov-Dec 1977)

[prokopetz]

is there a ttrpg that explicitly asks you to take metagaming into account?

The term "metagaming" doesn't mean any one thing. Metagaming is simply any way of engaging with the fiction that departs from what a particular game deems appropriate.

For example, one game may expect players to make decisions for their characters purely on the basis of in-character knowledge, with as little reference to the mechanics as possible; while another may expect players to adopt the stance of a narrator telling a story about their characters, and permit players to take mechanically significant actions which don't correspond to any particular in-character activity.

What's deemed to constitute metagaming in the former game will not be the same as what's deemed to constitute metagaming in the latter.

In this sense, it's impossible for a game to "take metagaming into account"; anything a game explicitly expects you to do is, by definition, something that game deems appropriate, and metagaming is the act of engaging inappropriately.

That said, there are games that play with the idea of where the boundaries between the game and the metagame lie. The gold standard is probably Dr. Jenna Moran's Wisher, Theurgist, Fatalist, a game that cross-breeds a tabletop RPG with a modified Nomic and divides the traditional responsibilities of the GM up among the various player roles: Fatalists have authority over the setting's lore; Theurgists over the mechanics of play; and Wishers over the social contract of the table. Since the question "what is metagaming?" is a function of the latter, Wishers can literally roll dice to determine whether or not something another player just did is metagaming.

[zathechaosgod]

I think I've figured out why Philza is always Like That on smps, and I love seeing other people figure it out by bits and pieces, and it's all about the way the rp is connected with irl.

Philza is a guy who loves games, and is good at games, and is willing to put his all into games, but he's also aware that they're games.

And that results in someone who picks up the slack, and works hard, and takes care of it all in the game, but is also Absolutely Unhinged and unable to be convinced (through begging, bribes, or threats) to do anything he doesnt want to do.

And then every so often Gremlin Mode activates, and you suddenly have someone who is terrifyingly capable on a good day, going on a Rampage that nobody will be able to reason him out of. Which makes the character look even more unhinged, solely because the person behind it went "yeah this will be Funny"

[theminecraftbee]

i think my biggest decked out 2 meta thought is that the hermits are currently seriously undervaluing the ethereal cards on account of them losing them in the future, and in general undervaluing the entire crowns shop in favor of the frozen shards.

the thing is, they're right about moment of clarity; building up your permanent deck is more important than that temporary boost, and moment of clarity just doesn't do enough for any given run to be worth it if it's anything other than 'the only thing left you can afford'. they're right about that specific ethereal card.

the PROBLEM is that they're extending that calculus to the crowns shop. but that's not the same trade-off in the crowns shop! literally every item in the crowns shop is one-time use! so the ACTUAL trade-off there is "will this item i buy help me enough to make up for the number of dungeon runs it took to buy it". when you look at it like that, it becomes clear that frozen shards are probably a little overpriced if you're just going to run easy or medium, and are ESPECIALLY overpriced if you're not sure you can reliably win that run. eight crowns, especially early game, seems to currently take three or four runs to build up, and that's if you're lucky with treasure on all of them and win all of them!

meanwhile, three crowns is one or two runs - one if you're lucky, two if you're not, from what i've seen. for those three crowns, though, you can get one of the ethereal cards, which will then help ensure you win your next run, getting you to another permanent card. for a little more, you could get something like tango as the dungeon lackey, and REALLY amp up your ability to make sure you win a run.

now, later on in the game when treasure is more reliable and runs are more valuable, this calculus probably changes; suddenly, one extra run is worth a lot more than it currently is. it's just that one run RIGHT NOW is worth like, one common card and a crown, unless you add something to it to make it worth more, whereas a copy of like, pay to win, could bump a run up to an uncommon card, and that's way more valuable than an additional run, i think.

[tomfrogisblue]

ok but hideduo enjoyers

can we appreciate the fucking wild character development of how q!fit used to be unable to even admit he thinks q!pac is attractive, to today's events where he wrote That Sign about "kiss, marry, kill" today?

[svtskneecaps]

honestly my deepest wish is for someone to somehow guess the bolas rojas group call password during a conversation along the lines of the breast milk discussion. i want them to be attempting to spy and walk in on some absolutely BONKERS horseshit. i want someone to be all serious and Lore Mode and then enter while the team is once again trying to guess what carre ate based on the sound of his fart. the spy comes in expecting coordinating or task comms or location information and instead the team is discussing nuclear meltdowns in switzerland and whether a gas mask can save you. there's a disaster. it's poison gas. they're celebrating.

(my other wish is someone tries to read their subtitles and figure out if the subtitles are mistranslations. the subtitles go crazy. they're barking)

[calamitycodified]

i love how grian, who definitely knew that the apocalypse task was coming, starts his episode by upgrading his gear and is one of the first ones to "notice" the pattern of infection kills

[vintagerpg]

I bought this because of Denis Loubet’s excellent cover. Look at it! So good, so smooth, so warm. What is it? Something damn strange: Dragons of Underearth (1982). But what’s that? Steve Jackson’s Fantasy Trip, sort of.

The Fantasy Trip is great, a lean and mean point-buy RPG focused on tactical combat that began life as too microgames, Melee and Wizard. Based on the success of those games, in 1980 Metagaming had Jackson design a more advanced game, a full-fledged RPG consisting of three books and an adventure (Advanced Melee, Advanced Wizard, In the Labyrinth and an adventure, Tollenkar’s Lair). All those things were supposed to be in one box set, but got released separately, seemingly because it was cheaper to do it sans box. That, and other difficulties, led to Jackson bailing on the company and the game. After that, The Fantasy Trip gets even more confusing, with a series of supplements coming out that were advertised as being compatible with both versions of the game, or lacked any compatibility information at all. Many of them, like Dragons of the Underearth, came packed, infuriatingly considering the history of the game, in boxes. Unsurprisingly, Metagaming shuttered in 1983.

This thing is appealing in a lot of ways. The box is small and reminds me of a videogame box. The art is good. The tokens are sharp as hell. But it is just a watered-down version of Fantasy Trip. Or rather, the previous box, Lords of Underearth, was a watered-down version. This is technically an advanced watered-down version. Dear god.