#man-kzin war

[endreal]

I still can't believe that the man-kzin wars were started and won(?) because or the interstellar equivalent of a city boy not realizing the mule he's riding can, in fact, kick.

[grayrazor]

A lot of bad "humans are space orcs"/"humanity fuck yeah!" web fanfiction intentionally or unintentionally imitates Niven, but the guy himself was pretty good at avoiding the worst cliches. Every "enemy" species is less inferior to humanity and more a sidegrade with different strengths and weaknesses.

Slavers and Kzin are stronger and faster than humans, but kinda stupid. Fithp are good strategists, but are unprepared for the concept of “revenge.” Moties and Pak are super smart, but can never accomplish anything as a civilization because they’re so warlike.

[victusinveritas]

Kzin Seduction by Larry Elmore.

[spacenoirdetective]

Stephen Hickman, Man Kzin War cover art

[sptoastaddict]

There’s a page for the Kzinti on Federation Space presently

https://wiki.fed-space.com/index.php?title=Kzinti

[stra-tek]

The Animated Series' weird takes on Trek history deep dive!

Check out S.S. Bonaventure 10281NCC from "The Time Trap", according to Scotty "the first ship to have warp drive installed"

Among the council we see a woman in a white Starfleet TOS-ish uniform with blue collar and a science insignia, presumably a surviving crewmember.

TAS is weird because it was out of continuity during the 90's, due to Filmation's bankruptcy and subsequent rights issues and Gene Roddenberry's supposed dislike of it. As a result, episodes and novels were forbidden from referencing it even if a few were snuck in regardless and subsequent Treks took things in different directions.

Now in 1993 the Star Trek Chronology was released, largely ignoring TAS. It featured this same named ship, which subsequently made it into a Deep Space Nine episode via this graphic:

And this Bonaventure design would be inspiration for the Phoenix in the movie First Contact

So how does TAS' Bonaventure fit now? Ummmm not so well. Fans speculated she was the first ship to have a Dilithium powered warp drive... until Star Trek: Enterprise nuked that. And then TAS nuked itself on those details a little later...

April's Enterprise

"The Counter-Clock Incident" is the first time we meet Robert April and his wife Sarah. Robert April was an early name, eventually changed to Christopher Pike for the 1st pilot episode of live action Star Trek and eventually James Kirk for the original series proper. Then retroactively made into different characters who commanded the Enterprise prior to Kirk.

Sarah comes out with "As the first medical officer aboard a ship with warp drive..." which is problematic to say the least.

TAS seems to imagine a universe where Bonaventure 10281NCC was launched shortly before the Enterprise, and warp drive and everything are all very new. The Star Trek Chronology and then the Enterprise series would move things back considerably, giving us the warp-powered Enterprise NX-01 with Dr. Phlox a century before Kirk's time.

Spock and the Enterprise's age

In "Counter-Clock Incident", weird stuff happens and the crew are in a bizarre reverse universe where they age backwards. April begins as a 75 year old man heading to mandatory retirement, but as everyone de-ages he ends up a young man looking much like Jim Kirk. At that time, everyone else is a toddler. Spock lasts longer though, and is still functional on the bridge as a teenager until the last few moments. This implies Spock is the oldest by far of the TOS crew, which makes sense due to the long lifespans of Vulcans. However, beginning with that 1993 Chronology book and made official in Star Trek Beyond, Spock is only 3 years older than Jim, born 2230 and 2233 respectively.

And how old does this make the U.S.S. Enterprise NCC-1701? This goes all the way back to The Making of Star Trek, which supposed the vessel is 40 years old at the time of TOS - something modern Trek would cut roughly in half. Strange New Worlds makes official her launch year as 2245, when Jim Kirk was 12 and Spock 15 (and in the Kelvin Universe, the Enterprise is launched much later in 2258 under Pike, but that's explicitly an AU where everything post 2233 is different)

The Man-Kzin Wars

I wrote a whole thing about the Kzinti in Trek here:

In Larry Niven's Known Space novel universe, the Kzinti were defeated when humans invented faster-than-light travel. In the 1970's, long before Star Trek First Contact, Star Trek Enterprise or the official Chronology book, I'd guess the 4 Man-Kzin Wars took place much as in Known Space, warp drive made the difference. But what does Sulu say?

"The Kzinti fought four wars with humankind and lost all of them. The last one was two hundred years ago..."

So despite "The Counter-Clock Incident" implying 40 years ago for warp drive and "The Time Trap" giving us a first ship with warp drive looking much like the TAS Enterprise implying it's not that old, now it's 200 years ago. Which in modern Trek would be around the time of Star Trek First Contact. I have a headache.

So in summery, TAS is amazing and it's continuity is utterly flawless and it's everything else made since that's wrong even when TAS clearly wasn't paying attention to what it itself had established.

[simon-roy]

The idea of logging on a colonized alien planet brings my mind back to the planet Lalonde from Peter F. Hamilton's Night's Dawn books - a world that had very hard wood as its only meaningful export, and was also stuck developing its economy from agriculturalism (due to investment shortages, though).

All this is to say - Hey! What are some foundational inspirations for your sci fi verse? You gotta have some like recommendations of classic or older sci-fi for us, right? What are some of your suggestions of books and authors to read?

OK SO - My sci-fi tastes have sort of ended up in some very specific niches. Growing up, I was a Larry Niven +Jerry Pournelle man, in part because my dad amassed a huge collection of their books - then gave 90% of them away before i was old enough to read them. So one of my teenage missions was rebuilding that library, trash and all!

Stuff like Footfall, Ringworld, Gil "The Arm" Hamilton, Protector (yes i attempted to name a comic series similarly, and paid for it) "The Mote in God's Eye"... you name it, I read fuckloads of these books. And while they tend to land on a sort of human chauvinist "mankind will win based on his inherent adaptive human-ness, and the aliens will fail because of their rigid alien-ness", this shit was very foundational to me.

Their more collaborative series, The Man-Kzin Wars and War World, also loom large in my teenage mind. The Man-Kzin wars are super fun - humans meet a race of tiger-men, and go from being NWO peaceniks to roughneck cat-skinners in a generation! PEACE AND LOVE WONT DEFEAT TIGER MEN!

Similarly, war world (like lots of that 70s/80s military sci fi) was a sort of catch-all for western military nerds to play with their favorite factions - it was a planet where all the un-ruleable ethnic groups and nationalities had been deported by the authoritarian earth government, and left to rot... until a race of genetically engineered fascist super men land on the world, and start trying to rule the place. Pretty fun shit.

As I got older, I turned hard into William Gibson, and read the absolute shit out of both the Neuromancer trilogy and the Bridge trilogy, as well as his short stories. Bruce Sterling was part of that wave for me, too, and I religiously sought his old paperbacks out too. In terms of novels, "Distraction" is my favorite coherent Sterling Novel - though the short stories in the "Schismatrix" novel/collection of his remain my absolute favorite space opera pieces.

At this age, too, I found my top-top fave Sterling Stories - "Taklaman" and "Bicycle Repairman", both gritty pseudo-cyberpunk stories of the highest degree, in this collection:

This thousand-plus page collection of short stories and novellas was basically my bible for a few years - i put sticky notes on each story i loved and meant to return to, until the book was so festooned with sticky note bookmarks i abandoned the practice altogether. If you have the chance, just buy this book and chew on it for a few years.

As i got into my 20s, Charles Stross became my lode star - his books like Accelerando and Glasshouse were total game changers for me. They come with their own peculiarities, but I loved his transhuman/posthuman musings (or at least i was obsessed with his stuff for a good few years - the venn diagram of his obvious interests and my own overlapped enough that his books were great fodder for a growing sci-fi loving brain).

But since then, my main literary squeeze has been the great man, JACK VANCE. Working on Prophet, my friend @cmkosemen made a remark about how much the early issues of the series reminded him of a book series called "Planet of Adventure" or "the Tschai Cycle", by Jack Vance. The book has a beautifully simple setup - a man from an entirely undescribed spacefaring human civilization crash-lands onto a weird planet. But on that planet, he finds four separate civilizations, each who possess a population of enslaved humans, culturally and physically molded to the needs of their masters. And each book of this series covers our generic hero's interactions with each bizarre expoitative culture. I was extremely intrigued.

Soon thereafter, I found my current absolute favorite book - "THE DRAGON MASTERS". A book about an isolated medieval world... which gets visited, once every few generations, by a black pyramid starship, flown by a reptilian race known as the Greph. The greph capture humans to (surprise surprise) breed them into hyper specific slaves... who in turn become Greph-like in their thinking and demeanours. But the last time the BLACK PYRAMID landed, a bunch of angry medieval dudes stormed the thing, blew it up, and captured a bunch of greph... who became the breeding stock for a whole new human world of slave labour. By the time we meet this planet, the two rival lords of the human-populated regions have been breeding greph slave warriors, or "dragons", for generations, for combat against one another. But soon, the black pyramid will return...

I love this book I even spent a good few months during covid talking with the Vance Estate and several publishers about developing it into a graphic novel, but nobody could quite agree on how it could get made with old Simon getting a paycheque... so sadly it fell apart. There are concept drawings floating around my patreon and other corners of the internet. But one day I'll use 'em...

My other favorite books of his, to name a couple of the MANY books of his I love:

THE BLUE WORLD: A caste system of humans, descended from a crashed prison ship, live on floating settlements on an ocean planet, paying protection to a giant long-lived intelligent crustacean. But one man is tired of giving up all his crops to this tyrannical megafauna...

THE MIRACLE WORKERS: Rival lords on a planet descended to medieval tech (surprise surprise) fight using armies... and rival SORCERORS who employ the powers of suggestion to voodoo each others' warriors... but when facing non-human intelligences, these sorceror's skills fall short.

But there are heaps more, and I love most (thought not all) of the ones i've read. They're generally short, concise, and full of all sorts of bizarre bullshit.

THere are more books i've read and enjoyed in my life, of course, but these are the core ones that I think of when I think of my career as a sci-fi reader... let me know what your top recs are!

[a-krogan-skald-and-bearsark]

What is your Hogwarts house?

This is the second time now I've recieved this ask. I ignored it the first time. You're asking the wrong person, for one thing. By the time Harry Potter was being released I was reading Dragonriders of Pern, Man-Kzin Wars, and Honour Harrington.

On top of that I was home-schooled the whole way, by christian parents who, in certain loopy ways, approached fundamentalist. I did not encounter Harry Potter until the movies, and even then they were overshadowed by Peter Jackson's masterpieces.

So even if it wasn't for the extenuating circumstances, I would have very little clue as to what to answer, and furthermore could not possibly care less about the question.

However, given Rowling's antipathy to trans people, some of whom I number amongst my closest friends, and who I might well be willing to kill for. Certainly be willing to put myself in harms way for.

And the raging anti-semitism present in her novels if you approach them with a critical eye. The prevalence of such concepts as blood quantum, the poor representation and racially charged portrayals (The one Irish student can only cast spells that blow shit up? Come on!). the lack of concern with the historical implications (There's one magic school in the entirety of the U.K., and it's in Northern Scotland and has been for a thousand years, and yet, is basically your standard English grammar school with magic?)

I have no desire to engage with Harry Potter, it's derivatives, it's fandom, and especially it's author, and I'll thank you to stop sending me these asks.

[fresnel149]

Probably Footfall, which is also a very good read. It’s unconnected to his usual universe, but it was the inception of both Project Thor (aka Rods from God) and Project Orion, the nuclear bomb-powered spaceship drive. He got called in by the Air Force to discuss how feasible both projects were, Thor was deemed effective but too expensive, Orion was tested successfully at scale with C4, but cut short by the atmospheric nuclear test ban.

Feeding my addiction at the Goodwill.

[tlaquetzqui]

The Redwall books are much more graphically violent and traumatizing than the Man-Kzin Wars anthologies I also read around the same time.

Nobody recommends Man-Kzin Wars to children.

[deepdarkspaceblog]

Man-Kzin Wars XIII

[vtgscifi]

source bluemelodybooks Vintage Larry Niven THE MAN KZIN WARS II 1989 Vintage FIRST Edition Sci Fi Book

[tlaquetzqui]

Can we just note how OP actually said “Two fictional sapient species, interact more like sapients of the same species interacting, than like two nonsapients of different species”, and thought that was an indictment of fantasy rather than of the poor fuckers who (presumably after trying to feed Zeus their own son) were tasked with trying to teach OP? Sapients are sapient before they are anything else, that’s why you can get people denying humans are (as they objectively are) monogamous, predatory monkeys.

Also, I can do a pushup have never played Mass Effect, but in actually good science fiction, for adults, the aliens’ psychology is always a baseline. A Kzin belongs to a species of man-eating Leeroy Jenkinses, neon orange, eight-foot wolverines with rat tails and batwings for ears, whose name means “hero” in their language. But Speaker-to-Animals (“interspecies translator”, rendered into a human language literally because he was in a bad mood when he introduced himself) is a professional apologizer, whose job is to deflect disputes that his brethren will get themselves killed in. He decides to not report something a species called Puppeteers did to the Kzinti, because the Empire would be honor-bound to go to war to avenge it, and the Puppeteers are so advanced, they turned their homeworld into a spaceship. Because he’s an individual, whatever the instinctive tendency of his species.

Fantasy races are an uncomfortable concept, because they present a world that literally works the way racists think that it works. The attempts to mitigate this problem often fail to address the core concern, merely making the idea more palatable.

A big example is trying to correct by changing the language from "races" to "species." This attempt fails for two reasons:

1) Exactly! Racists think that people of other races are a different species. That's the foundation of "race science," phrenology, all of it.

2) Are demihumans different species, though? Like, the interactions between elves and dwarves don't resemble the interactions between different species in our world. They don't act like snakes and lemurs, or whales and krill, or even cats and dogs. More often we've got different groups of people, who may speak different languages and have different cultural practices, engaging in diplomacy or war and struggling to coexist. In practice, they are treated as nations: ethnicities. Except they're ethnicities who are biologically distinct enough to have objective differences in ability.

This is something that puts me on edge in Mass Effect, otherwise one of my favorite games. True, the game ultimately lands on condemning the genophage, and it's not subtle about that. I mean just look at the name... But it's still considered debatable, morally grey, and Mordin Solus remains one of the most charming and enduring heroes of the series. The setting has bent over backwards to make every racist stereotype and talking point as legitimate as possible. In this setting, it is objectively true, scientifically proven that it is in the DNA of Krogans to naturally be violent, warmongering killing machines whose explosively rapid breeding poses an existential threat to the galaxy. That in turn is meant to make us think that maybe forced sterilization is something worth considering. It's hard to ignore the parallels to real life racist propaganda. I don't think it's malicious, just ungrounded and thoughtless; the result of creators to whom these ideals are abstract thought experiments, rather than reflections of real history.

Another big example is Dark Elves. They try to make it okay, to mitigate the message by fleshing them out as characters, by scapegoating an abusive deity rather than an ingrained nature, by erasing the monster manual description that reads "Always Chaotic Evil," by trending skin tone away from black and towards purple, or gray, even pale white. But none of it really changes the core issue, does it? The idea of drow is to equate dark skin with evil, to fetishize that idea, and to tell a story about a subsect of people cast into darkness as a result of sin in a direct parallel to racist Christian beliefs about dark skin being a curse or punishment from God.

So, do I think we need to cancel Mass Effect and stop playing D&D or telling stories about drow? No, not really. I mean... I do all these things. Truth is, I don't have an actionable solution, for myself or anyone. But the dynamic is clearly present and worth describing. And the attempts to challenge it are often insufficient, more about making ourselves feel better about what we're already doing than enacting real change.

[vtgbooks]

Vintage Larry Niven THE MAN KZIN WARS II 1989 Vintage FIRST Edition Sci Fi Book

[electricnik]

A suggestion for anybody who has consumed everything Chiss out there, Larry Niven's The Man Kzin Wars. This series set at the start of an earth based intergalactic civilization, Humans exploring the outer rim of the galaxy run up against feline/humanoid aliens and after a series of battles try to come to terms with each other's cultures. A lot of world building. I read the whole series a few years ago.

[stra-tek]

Kzinti and Star Trek

You don't see many Kzinti in Star Trek, and there's a very good reason for that: They're not actually Star Trek aliens, but a borrow from Larry Niven's Known Space series of books. And so Paramount don't actually own them. "The Slaver Weapon" episode of The Animated Series is an adaptation of Larry's "The Soft Weapon"

TAS' "Slaver Weapon" brought lots of Known Space lore into Trek. 4 Man-Kzin Wars were fought prior to the invention of faster-than-light travel, which really doesn't work in Trek where First Contact established, well, first contact and it was between humans and Vulcans after the first warp flight.

We also saw a Slaver, which have a rich backstory in Known Space where they're known as the Thrint and once ruled over the galaxy with their telepathy.

Some of Niven's backstory fits into Trek but other parts don't.

The Man-Kzin Wars don't. That being said, there have been attempts to bring Kzin back into Trek and several references to them. The Next Gen novel "The Captain's Honor" features the M'dok in the B-plot, a feline species who fought 2 wars with humanity one before the founding of the Federation and one after... sound vaguely familiar? They were originally the Kzin, and had name and details changed to avoid potential legal issues.

The Kzin exist in the Star Fleet Battles tabletop gaming universe (which is like a Trek splinter universe, licensed from TOS, TAS and the Star Fleet Technical Manual but nothing else), but they lack the distinctive bat ears.

Starfleet Command, the videogame adaptation of Star Fleet Battles swaps the Kzinti for the Mirak, again to avoid copyright issues.

But then came Star Trek Picard, where in season one Riker talks about an issue with the Kzinti (apparently permission was sought from Larry Niven and given for the mention) and then Lower Decks gave us Taylor, who is clearly Kzinti but likely will just never have anyone say it out loud just to be on the safe side

Oh, and the 1980 Star Trek Maps were cheeky and called them the K'zinti and hoped the apostrophe would make everything okay.

There have been attempts to bring the Kzinti back to Trek, like a planned Enterprise season 5 episode called "Kilkenny Cats" which was almost resurrected as a New Voyages fan film project. Here's the poster, where they'd replaced the Kzinti with the Kytharri (another Kzin-expy from the DS9 "Prophecy and Change" anthology

The "Kilkenny Cats" story read somewhat like a retread of DS9's "Armageddon Game". There were also attempts to get an animated Star Trek movie made called Lions of the Night, involving Sulu and the Enterprise-B dealing with a Kzinti invasion.

Oh oh, and read Ringworld. It's fantastic. And makes one wonder what the Kzin world is like in the Trek world... because they're unable to stop themselves launching violent wars on neighbours which they have no hope of winning, their world is essentially occupied by humans and that's very un-Trek (which of course makes it 10x more fascinating) indeed. How would Starfleet and the Federation deal with such a threat?