#kzin
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thinking about how there’s a Kzin on the Cerritos, and there’s undoubtedly holonovels about the early wars between humans and Kzinti (of varying quality and realism)
and that you could probably simulate hunting humans or other sentients on the holodeck…
and you could replicate human flesh…
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artfight!!!! i was moving across the us and shit the entire time so i didnt do as much as i wanted. like i had so many star trek ocs in my bookmarks that i didnt draw. but oh well, im proud of how ive refined my style this year!
1: https://artfight.net/~yzzymandias
2: https://artfight.net/~ThatFoxDog
3: https://artfight.net/~Sylveon
4: https://artfight.net/~ShrimpMutt
5: https://artfight.net/~GarfeildEatsLarsaga
6: https://artfight.net/~wclfvee
7: https://artfight.net/~PipTrip
8: https://artfight.net/~lion-wheat
9: https://artfight.net/~starrmutt
#artfight#artfight 2024#artfight team seafoam#team seafoam#seafoam vs stardust#seafoam 2024#my art#digital art#character art#im really proud of these#if only i put my whole pussy into art for my ocs like i do art for other people#star trek oc#kzin#kzinti
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Kzin Seduction by Larry Elmore.
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Stephen Hickman, Man Kzin War cover art
#man kzin wars#man kzin war#kzin#jerry pournelle#poul anderson#pulpscifi#tiger man#science fiction novel#science fiction series#scifi series#scifi novel
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There’s a page for the Kzinti on Federation Space presently
https://wiki.fed-space.com/index.php?title=Kzinti
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Am reading Ringworld. Gonna be honest, I’m imagining all of Speaker’s lines in the voice of Christopher Judge as Kratos.
“Look, Speaker, a tower!”
“Close your heart to it, Teela.”
#ringworld#larry niven#kzin#kzinti#sf#science fiction#be a lot cooler if the author wasn't clearly a misogynist tbh
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First thing I thought off when reading this:
[screenshot of a slouching, unhappy-looking Kzin from Star Trek: The Animated Series, copied from Memory Alpha]
You are an assistant scientist at the experimental DNA modification and Cloning facility, and your boss has just told you that the facility was originally founded to create a race of… a race of… sigh catgirls. You ask your boss if they’re serious, and they nod with a shameful expression.
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Originally finished September 17th 2022, posted to YouTube on October 9th 2022
So this one was a birthday gift to my dad because he played Star Fleet Battles a long time ago and we’re nerds. So it’s the Kzinti fighting the Lyrans in space on ships because I believe he used one of those fleets in Star Fleet Battles a lot.
Also, sadly, I do not make Star Trek stuff usually for those Trekkies who may have come across this, so I’m sorry if that disappoints you :(
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I still can't believe that the man-kzin wars were started and won(?) because or the interstellar equivalent of a city boy not realizing the mule he's riding can, in fact, kick.
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Section 31, traveling back in time to try to find a useful "eternal enemy" for the Federation, engineered the Kzinretti into nonsentience specifically to make the Kzinti more abhorrent to most Federation member species
Naturally, this attempt at creating a species they could always provoke into attacking the Federation if people started to question the need for Section 31 eventually went very, very wrong for them
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A lot of bad "humans are space orcs"/"humanity fuck yeah!" web fanfiction intentionally or unintentionally imitates Niven, but the guy himself was pretty good at avoiding the worst cliches. Every "enemy" species is less inferior to humanity and more a sidegrade with different strengths and weaknesses.
Slavers and Kzin are stronger and faster than humans, but kinda stupid. Fithp are good strategists, but are unprepared for the concept of “revenge.” Moties and Pak are super smart, but can never accomplish anything as a civilization because they’re so warlike.
#science fiction#humans are space orcs#hfy#humans are deathworlders#larry niven#hard science fiction#known space#ringworld#man-kzin wars#footfall#the mote in god's eye
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Different Worlds 37 (November/December, 1984). “Scramble!” by Steve Purcell, pictures a Kzin pilot hopping into their fighter. I’m not as wild about this painting as the previous two, but still pretty high quality stuff. Worth noting that aside of the core box set and a companion book, this might be the only other support that the Ringworld RPG got.
#roleplaying game#tabletop rpg#dungeons & dragons#rpg#ttrpg#d&d#Chaosium#Different Worlds#Steve Purcell
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The Animated Series' weird takes on Trek history deep dive!
Check out S.S. Bonaventure 10281NCC from "The Time Trap", according to Scotty "the first ship to have warp drive installed"
Among the council we see a woman in a white Starfleet TOS-ish uniform with blue collar and a science insignia, presumably a surviving crewmember.
TAS is weird because it was out of continuity during the 90's, due to Filmation's bankruptcy and subsequent rights issues and Gene Roddenberry's supposed dislike of it. As a result, episodes and novels were forbidden from referencing it even if a few were snuck in regardless and subsequent Treks took things in different directions.
Now in 1993 the Star Trek Chronology was released, largely ignoring TAS. It featured this same named ship, which subsequently made it into a Deep Space Nine episode via this graphic:
And this Bonaventure design would be inspiration for the Phoenix in the movie First Contact
So how does TAS' Bonaventure fit now? Ummmm not so well. Fans speculated she was the first ship to have a Dilithium powered warp drive... until Star Trek: Enterprise nuked that. And then TAS nuked itself on those details a little later...
April's Enterprise
"The Counter-Clock Incident" is the first time we meet Robert April and his wife Sarah. Robert April was an early name, eventually changed to Christopher Pike for the 1st pilot episode of live action Star Trek and eventually James Kirk for the original series proper. Then retroactively made into different characters who commanded the Enterprise prior to Kirk.
Sarah comes out with "As the first medical officer aboard a ship with warp drive..." which is problematic to say the least.
TAS seems to imagine a universe where Bonaventure 10281NCC was launched shortly before the Enterprise, and warp drive and everything are all very new. The Star Trek Chronology and then the Enterprise series would move things back considerably, giving us the warp-powered Enterprise NX-01 with Dr. Phlox a century before Kirk's time.
Spock and the Enterprise's age
In "Counter-Clock Incident", weird stuff happens and the crew are in a bizarre reverse universe where they age backwards. April begins as a 75 year old man heading to mandatory retirement, but as everyone de-ages he ends up a young man looking much like Jim Kirk. At that time, everyone else is a toddler. Spock lasts longer though, and is still functional on the bridge as a teenager until the last few moments. This implies Spock is the oldest by far of the TOS crew, which makes sense due to the long lifespans of Vulcans. However, beginning with that 1993 Chronology book and made official in Star Trek Beyond, Spock is only 3 years older than Jim, born 2230 and 2233 respectively.
And how old does this make the U.S.S. Enterprise NCC-1701? This goes all the way back to The Making of Star Trek, which supposed the vessel is 40 years old at the time of TOS - something modern Trek would cut roughly in half. Strange New Worlds makes official her launch year as 2245, when Jim Kirk was 12 and Spock 15 (and in the Kelvin Universe, the Enterprise is launched much later in 2258 under Pike, but that's explicitly an AU where everything post 2233 is different)
The Man-Kzin Wars
I wrote a whole thing about the Kzinti in Trek here:
In Larry Niven's Known Space novel universe, the Kzinti were defeated when humans invented faster-than-light travel. In the 1970's, long before Star Trek First Contact, Star Trek Enterprise or the official Chronology book, I'd guess the 4 Man-Kzin Wars took place much as in Known Space, warp drive made the difference. But what does Sulu say?
"The Kzinti fought four wars with humankind and lost all of them. The last one was two hundred years ago..."
So despite "The Counter-Clock Incident" implying 40 years ago for warp drive and "The Time Trap" giving us a first ship with warp drive looking much like the TAS Enterprise implying it's not that old, now it's 200 years ago. Which in modern Trek would be around the time of Star Trek First Contact. I have a headache.
So in summery, TAS is amazing and it's continuity is utterly flawless and it's everything else made since that's wrong even when TAS clearly wasn't paying attention to what it itself had established.
#star trek#deep dive#star trek the animated series#star trek the original series#deep lore#star trek chronology#star trek books#robert april#spock
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Toss-up between "human but cyborg" (...which would probably keep me from getting into Starfleet if I went transhumany with it) and "cat alien"
Like come on, why would I NOT be a caitian or ferasan
im curious abt how other ppl feel abt this so.......
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Puppeteers and Kzin
#Doodles#dont deny the puppeteers are fun to draw#I’m 90% sure they are meant to have their two eyes on the centres of their heads#but I thought having them to the side would make them look more herbivorey
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One of the thoughts I had while writing that post on Barbara Ehrenreich's Blood Rites, anti-predator defense, and the origins of the male gender role is if that model is correct it implies Larry Niven got the relationship between a sapient species's diet and culture/values pegged wrong, at least as far as the Kzin are concerned. Courage is the virtue of a prey species that engages in collective defense; a smart predator attacks the weak, avoids fights against strong opponents, and is quick to retreat from any fight in which it loses the advantage; a sapient species with a long evolutionary history of being big game hunting carnivore apex predators would probably value/honor courage less than we do, so Kzin biology and implied evolutionary history is actually kind of an awkward fit with the kind of assholes the Kzin are. Asshole aliens with a long evolutionary history of being big game hunting carnivore apex predators might be sneaky raiders with an unapologetic "if they outgun us, trade, avoid, or appease, if we outgun them, raid and pillage!" mindset, or something like that; they probably wouldn't have the prideful machismo, hotheaded aggression, and disdain for restraint of the Kzin (you could argue calling it machismo is an anthropomorphism because Kzintosh aren't men but lbr human machismo is very obviously what the Kzin attitude is modeled on).
I wouldn't go so far as to say it's unrealistic for the Kzin to be the way they are, cause Kzin values could plausibly arise from intra-species competition and my rationalization for why the Kzin are as they are is a mix of that and "the Kzin are like that because their right-wing authoritarians won their history and got to shape their culture." But, as I said, I think the kind of assholes the Kzin are wouldn't logically flow directly from their ancestral subsistence strategy/ecological niche.
Which makes me wonder: if as a spec-bio exercise I tried to make a species which's biology would predispose them toward becoming approximately the kind of asshole Proud Warrior Race the Kzin are, what traits would they have?
Here's what I came up with:
First obvious thing is to give them a "harem" social system like gorillas, elephant seals, certain ungulates, etc.. This lends itself well to a species with a highly competitive male hierarchy in which male social and reproductive success is contingent on being able to make credible costly signals of being strong and badass.
One major obstacle to a species like that becoming a threat on the interstellar scale is control by a single dominant male is a pretty hard cap on group size. I propose that this species has overcome that by developing a social system with dominant bull coalitions, so instead of being limited to groups of one to three dozen individuals controlled by a single dominant male, they can have e.g. groups of a few thousand individuals controlled by a few hundred dominant bulls and so on; this eventually scaled up to an interstellar empire with billions of subjects and probably at least a few hundred million dominant bulls in loose coalition (that big dominant bull coalition is the empire's warrior-aristocrat class).
Unlike the Kzin, in this species the females will definitely be sapient and have lots of soft power; all the internal male social competition and external war and imperialism is largely about impressing them.
Another major point of difference from the Kzin: this species definitely should not have much evolutionary history of cooperative big game hunting. Pack hunting strongly incentivizes and rewards cooperation and solidarity (I suspect this plus the smaller group sizes of carnivores is why you see "harem" social organization more in herbivores), whereas I think to get aliens that are assholes in approximately the way the Kzin are we want a social system that's highly internally competitive. This probably implies a mostly herbivorous diet, though there might be some supplementation with small game; the important thing is this species has had basically no selection pressure for being effective predators of animals strong enough to require cooperation to take down.
Related and important point: the evolution of sapience in this species was more-or-less entirely driven by social competition and sexual selection, and they got too big to be tempting targets for the predators of their ancestral environment long before they developed sapience. So this is a species with no recent evolutionary history of being a prey species.
I guess we're maybe looking at something like a mix of gorillas and elephants here; maybe ancestrally browsers of the savanna and open woodland (though they'd gradually switch toward eating more richer food such as fruit, tubers, young shoots, meat, etc. as they developed more efficient food production). If we're doing the Mass Effect "more alien-looking than Star Trek forehead aliens but still implausibly humanoid" thing some kind of big beefy horned minotaur-looking humanoids would be a pretty appropriate look for the dominant bulls (with the subordinate males being more slender and the females being more slender and substantially smaller - this would be a species with way more sexual dimorphism than humans), not sure what I'd make them look like if I went the route of making them more realistically alien-looking.
Organized violence (i.e. war) developed in this species partly as a mating ritual. Large-scale battles gave males the same kind of opportunities to demonstrate strength and courage that fitness signalling duels did, but the much more complex tactical environment of a large-scale battle also offered opportunities for males to conspicuously demonstrate intelligence and cooperation. The switch from duels to battles as the primary arena of fitness signalling was a major selection pressure driving the evolution of sapience in this species. Originally the ultimate aim of war in this species was group fusion in which the dominant bull coalition of one group would defeat the dominant bull coalition of another group and the two groups would merge with the victorious dominant bull coalition being the dominant bull coalition of the combined group and the males in the defeated dominant bull coalition being either killed or demoted to subordinate status with their new lower rank being rubbed in by bullying and humiliation rituals. As the species developed bigger and more sedentary social groups this developed into territorial conquest with conquered communities remaining in their old homes under the rule of viceroys. But the thing where wars were partly giant mating rituals meant often neither side was particularly in a hurry to finish off their enemies as no more enemies to fight would mean diminished opportunities for social mobility and impressing females; there tended to be a "we have always been at war with Eurasia/Eastasia" dynamic where the conflict itself was effectively treated as having social value and actively maintained and subject to various forms of ritualization that limited its destructiveness so it could be kept going longer.
So, this is a species that's gotten lots of selection pressure from intra-species competition and violence, but has no recent evolutionary history as cooperative predators of animals with comparable size and strength to themselves and has no recent evolutionary history as a prey species. This species will have instincts and intuitions about violence totally optimized for intra-species violence that's mostly a mix of coalition politics propaganda of the deed and male fitness signalling rituals (and, of course, their culture will build on those instincts and intuitions and the dynamics that selected for them). I think this would lead plausibly to people who share one of the defining traits of the Kzin: being aggressive imperialist warmongering swaggering bullies who endlessly congratulate themselves on their ferocious warrior spirit and supposed mighty warrior prowess and supposed right to rule derived from that but are not actually all that good at war compared to a species like us that has been shaped by hunting and being hunted.
The thing about intra-species violence that's mostly a mix of coalition politics propaganda of the deed and male fitness signalling is it simultaneously incentivizes restraint more than inter-species predator/prey violence and incentivizes aggression more consistently than inter-species predator/prey violence.
On the restraint side, intra-species violence means potentially violence against relatives or potential mates, and in a social species violence against potential helpers. This obviously creates an incentive for restraint. Violent intra-species competition is where you get natural weapons and combat set up to probably not do too much damage (bighorn sheep knocking each other on their hard blunt horns instead of stabbing each other in the fleshy flank or face with sharp horns), notions of fair and honorable fights, "why don't you pick on someone your own size?," chivalry, rules of war, boxing gloves and rules against hitting below the belt, etc.. This post touches on some of the dynamics I'm talking about here.
I think plausible cultural development of this species might enhance this. A highly competitive "harem" social system means at least the males of this species are likely to be less cooperative than humans, and a less cooperative species will have a harder time forming effective equalizing coalitions. This species never got our probable evolutionarily significant period of living in mostly relatively egalitarian societies; compared to us their males at least are likely to be less wired for cooperative coalition-building and more wired for trying to individualistically climb their way up viciously competitive hierarchies; again, it seems likely this would make the formation of effective equalizing coalitions harder. The females are a bit of a wild card here, not sure what'd be going on with them, but considering they find aggressive, violent, domineering males sexy, I can see them not having instincts terribly promising for forming effective society-wide equalizing coalitions either. A species that's not very good at forming effective equalizing coalitions is likely to be not very good at coming up with ideologies of equality; equivalents of liberalism, democracy, socialism, anarchism, etc. may not exist at all in their philosophical tradition, or if they exist are likely to be obscure and marginal. The implication may be the political landscape of this species was a pretty dismal picture of oppressive oligarchies everywhere for pretty much the entire existence of their species. Like I said, I expect this species would develop a lot of practices to limit the destructiveness of war and focus its destructiveness on direct combatants. Defeat of a community in war would likely mean little change in the social or material conditions of most of the community's members; one oligarchic dominant bull coalition would replace another, and the only real change for most people would be a change in the names and faces (or scents or whatever they primarily recognize each other by) of their masters. Plausibly, the females of a conquered community would even approve of the change, seeing their community's new ruling dominant bull coalition as having proven themselves more desirable breeding material by winning. All of this would tend to encourage a sensibility that wars are basically social games between males and the only thing important at stake in them is the personal social and reproductive success of the direct combatants.
On the aggression side... Violent coalition politics involves lots of costly signalling, bluff, and martyrdom. The kind of violence a species like the one I'm describing here engages in is probably going to include a lot of violence that's basically an implicit statement of "I am exceptionally strong and brave and badass and would be an exceptionally good subordinate or ally, please give me a promotion!" And when it comes to male violence done as male fitness signalling to females, well, sperm is cheap and ova and wombs are expensive; in a "harem" social system demonstrating your mere viability will probably not be enough to impress females into mating with you, they are likely to require a costly signal of exceptional excellence before perceiving you as a desirable breeding partner, and if you die trying to make that costly signal, well, rolling the dice on a 65% chance of getting killed while young and a 35% chance of getting to breed might easily be selected for over contenting oneself with dying childless at a ripe old age.
Basically, I think you might plausibly end up with a species with bone-deep intuitions that:
- Violence is a performance, it is primarily communicative, using it to send a message to your opponent and/or to witnesses is at least an important secondary consideration and may even be more important than the actual concrete outcome of the fight. It is not enough to simply defeat your enemy, you must do so in a way that effectively communicates what you want to communicate.
- The most consistent purposes of violence are to show off your own strength, bravery, and fighting prowess and to terrorize and humiliate your opponent into submission.
- War is basically a game played among males. It's not a trivial game, it's literally deadly serious for the males involved in it and your society is largely organized around it, but it's fundamentally a game; the only people who have really big stakes in it are the direct combatants, and having fun and displaying good sportsmanship and putting on a cool performance are important secondary considerations and may even be more important than the actual concrete outcome. If you've ever read Ian Banks's Player Of Games, Azad (the game and the institutions and culture around it) in that book is the best analogy I can think of for what war would be to these people.
- Your enemies will be basically following the same rule book you have.
When these people develop interstellar travel and meet other sapient species, they'll apply the instincts and cultural institutions they developed for intra-species competition to those other sapients. I.e. they'll turn into nasty imperialists. Conquered aliens would get incorporated into their society in about the same social position as weak males. In their society weak males with little hope of rising to dominant bull status are kept around for labor and to assist with the care and education of the offspring of their female relatives and have a social status roughly equivalent to serfs; this would be the obvious niche to put conquered aliens in, with some modifications, e.g. conquered aliens would be expected to keep reproducing with each other.
Combine what I said in the previous paragraph with how much these people's social instincts would revolve around volatile male hierarchies reinforced by bullying and humiliation rituals, and I expect being a conquered subject of them would tend to be unpleasant to horrific. Being a primarily herbivorous species, these people wouldn't occasionally eat their slaves like the Kzin, but I could totally see the dominant bulls occasionally casually caving some poor slave's skull in out of a combination of some petty irritation and wanting to remind everyone who's boss.
Let's say we want these people to get approximately the same nasty surprise when they attack humans that the Kzin did. Model favorable to that:
In this setting, the most common pathway to sapience is through social and sexual selection. Sapient species usually evolve in environments without big predators, e.g. isolated islands, because serious predation pressure tends to prevent the very strong commitment to a long-lived slow-breeding very K-selected life strategy that leads to sapience. Sapient species usually do not have recent evolutionary history as big game hunters (the typical sapient is a physically not very strong omnivore, often primarily an eater of fruit, tubers, seeds, insects, and small animals, though also a lot of sapient species started with an ecological niche roughly equivalent of fish-eating birds that nest in large rookeries). Species that evolve sapience through this pathway usually have strong social and artistic intelligence, but lack instincts and institutions of organized violence (they aren't always peaceful, but if they do have significant intra-species violence it's murder, done by individuals or very small groups, not war).
When the warmonger aliens I've spent most of this post describing meet species like this it usually goes similarly to what happened when the Maori met the Moriori, or at least like that event as described in a book I read once. The warmonger aliens will roll up and be like "Yo, what's up, losers! You are now our slaves! We're awfully fond of presents called 'tribute' which you'll be giving us regularly from now on, and you'll be obeying our orders from now on! You can start by performing these humiliating submission rituals to acknowledge our superiority!" and this will be kind of an OCP to their victims, who will usually either basically surrender immediately or try to resist but fold pretty quickly cause they aren't well-equipped for war psychologically, culturally, institutionally, or materially. The warmonger dominant bulls honestly find it kind of boring, to the point that they fight a lot of highly ritualized flower war style conflicts among themselves as a mix of oligarch class dispute resolution, bloody enrichment, and live fire training to keep their warrior skills sharp.
Basically, the galaxy is full of weedy theater kid nerds, and these warmonger aliens are the meathead jock bullies of the galaxy going around shoving those nerds into lockers and stealing their lunch money.
The exceptions to this pattern the warmonger aliens met before us were a mix of 1) other species like themselves, 2) sapient species with a long evolutionary history of being big game hunting carnivore more-or-less apex predators (who are basically sneaky raiders). The warmonger alien dominant bulls tend to hate the latter and bitch endlessly about how they "have no honor," but savor tangling with the former in a "finally, worthy opponents!" way.
Then they met humans.
Humans have a long enough evolutionary history of big game hunting that this may have subjected us to significant selection pressure for increased cooperativeness that the warmonger aliens didn't get. But that isn't special in this context, the warmonger aliens have tangled with sapients descended from big game hunting carnivores before.
The thing that makes humans relevantly special is our relatively recent evolutionary history of being a prey species that engaged in collective defense, and the instincts we have that formed in that context but can be activated in other kinds of conflict.
Going back to that "real fights" thing earlier:
"but how often are you ever going to be in a fight where you’re willing to rip the other guy’s cheek out, gouge out his eyes and so forth?"
A fight against a predator that wants to eat your child looks like that.
If you're fighting a member of your own species, the entity you're fighting might be a relative, potential mate, or potential helper, so there's an incentive for restraint.
If you're a predator hunting, well, a carnivore species needs their prey species, that's their food source; smart lions wouldn't want to wipe out their prey species, they need their prey species, they would prefer their prey species thrive and be abundant and healthy; again there is an incentive for restraint; very plausibly one of the first lessons a sapient carnivore species would have to collectively learn after becoming sapient is restraint, learning that it would be all too easy to use their new, better weapons to kill too many of their prey and that they need to consciously avoid doing that.
Prey defending themselves from predators are the ones who'd have more-or-less zero incentive for restraint. If you can hurt or kill the lioness that's trying to eat your child, there is basically no reason to not go for it except self-preservation. Predators need their prey, but that's not symmetrical; prey don't need their predators, and sapient prey smart enough to do birth control and cull any dumber competitor species would probably be unambiguously much better off if all their predators dropped dead (Pleistocene humans could have done semi-reliable birth control by abstinence, outercourse, and lactational amenorrhea).
Humans are a slow-breeding species. A pride of lions could easily gradually eat a small early human band into extinction, and would have little incentive to avoid doing so cause humans aren't even their primary prey so when they ran out of humans they could just eat more of the antelope and so on that are already most of what they're eating anyway. The warmonger aliens have no evolutionary history of conflicts so existential.
The warmonger aliens have an idea of self-sacrificial heroism, but their version is entirely oriented (in an "adaptation executor, not fitness maximizer" way) toward burnishing the reputation of surviving close male relatives by association and thus increasing their reproductive success. They would have nothing in their recent evolutionary history like the experience of standing between a child and a hungry lioness. They would not grok "get away from her you bitch!" (that essay talks about the role of males in anti-predator defense but, yeah, women would have this too, who do you think would be the last line of defense for the children if a predator got past the male defensive ring?).
(The warmonger aliens definitely think it's a bit weird that we have mixed gender armies, not so much in a conventionally sexist way - they're inclined to see the size and strength differences between human men and women as obviously trivial compared to the much bigger sexual dimorphism of their species - but in that the idea of females caring enough about the outcome of a war to fight in it is alien to them. It's not that weird to them though, the big game hunter ancestry carnivore sapients they've encountered have mixed-sex armies and unwarlike sapients that try to resist conquest usually form them when they scramble to put a military together so it's got precedent in their experience.)
Like, yeah, the warmonger aliens are exactly the kind of people where some human commander would draw some of them into a clever trap they wouldn't anticipate cause prioritizing actually winning over looking heroic is alien behavior to them and then the comrades of the ones who died getting punked would bitch about how "dishonorable" it was of us to fight to win instead of obediently lining up to get slaughtered like cattle in some set-piece battle because that'd be the "honorable" thing by their definitions.
But also, something a lot like Londo Mollari's little speech about how brave the humans were in the Earth-Minbari war but it's some warmonger alien dominant bull describing the resistance we're putting up against his people and instead of admiration it's spoken with a tone of queasy puzzlement tinged with fear, irritation with our "irrational" resistance mixed with fear of the possible implications for what might happen if we start winning, it's alien behavior to him and he's admitting that it scares him.
Also, turns out species that have been strongly selected for solidarity (that's us!) are good at building equalizing coalitions and creating memes to coordinate them around, so not only are human ideologies of equality such as liberalism and communism effective at supercharging our resistance against imperialist conquest in a way that's an OCP to the warmonger aliens, they also turn out to be really disruptive to the warmonger aliens' shitty empire when some human chaos agents have fun spreading them around in it.
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