#lord of shadows theories

[fairymousse]

St Trina is the best part of the DLC's story

Massive spoilers below cut for the whole DLC

I think that St Trina singlehandedly makes Miquella's story not only make sense, but as a natural conclusion to his character.

Miquella's first title was Miquella the Unalloyed. This obviously means purity and lack of compromise, which would be weird if he had been manipulative all along, and just so happened to have a kinder alter ego. So I think that Miquella and St Trina were in sync as helping the people outside of order (the Haligtree, the cut content Merchant stuff).

But, as Miquella began to plan to become a God, St Trina became more separate. As such, Miquella is usually referred to as Miquella the Kind, rather than the Unalloyed. This is also evident in how the presentation of St Trina varies. The Sword of St Trina reads that:

St. Trina is an enigmatic figure. Some say she is a comely young girl, others are sure he is a boy. The only certainty is that their appearance was as sudden as their disappearance.

In the DLC, Trina is explicitly depicted as feminine, suggesting a split similar to Marika/Radagon. And Miquella discards Trina, with the two crosses associated with her being his doubts and vascilations, but also his love.

Obviously, Miquella has at this point done some horrible stuff that would encourage doubt. There's Mohg, and more explicitly Radahn. That Sword of St Trina I mentioned earlier? You find it in Caelid. There must have been some faith for her there, so she would be seeing the horrors of war and the rot. Then there's more general stuff. Will Miquella be any different from Marika? Will he be able to do good at all? This is not what you want if you need to commit to the path.

So Miquella abandons his doubts and his compassion, and this is his fatal flaw. Miquella is no longer able to change his mind about whether the vow that, (as @drenched-in-sunlight pointed out in their post on the Prattling Pate), could have been incredibly flimsy, and never intended to be honoured. He is no longer able to consider if his age of compassion is even wanted. He is no longer able to even consider Mohg. All of this, is incredibly unlike the original Miquella. A defining feature of Miquella is how he abandoned Fundamentalism, because it couldn't help Malenia. Miquella without his compassion and his doubts, isn't really Miquella.

Miquella the Kind is an ideal. St Trina is the genuine heart, who has been forsaken.

Edit : Here is my follow up post to this.

[st7e]

So, this spell we see in the Shadow of the Erdtree trailer:

It appears to be a mass version of the same effect as the Bewitching Branch item, it even has the same particle effects.

The Bewitching Branch, of course, is an item associated with Miquella that turns enemies into allies. It appears that the spell in the trailer is doing the same thing. This spell is likely a version of a power that Miquella has.

Now let's compare this dialog from the beginning of the trailer:

"He wields love to shrive clean the hearts of men. There is nothing more terrifying."

To the description for the Bewitching Branch:

The Empyrean Miquella is loved by many people. Indeed, he has learned very well how to compel such affection.

We already know that Miquella was good at "compelling" love from others, but now we're being told that this power is terrifying and dangerous. We hear of many people who love Miquella in the base game, the most important examples being Malenia and Mohg. We must wonder, then, was this love genuine or compelled?

What if Miquella is the one who compelled Mohg to capture him? What if Miquella being torn from the Haligtree and bled dry by Mohg was actually part of his plan to reach the Land of Shadow? The YouTube description for the trailer says:

It was to this land (the Land of Shadow) that Miquella departed. Divesting himself of his flesh, his strength, his lineage. Of all things Golden

What if Mohg's fucked up ritual was a necessary step in Miquella's "divestment"?

What if instead of the tragic victim we all thought he was, Miquella was actually pulling the strings all along?

[space-blue]

SOTE rant (1)

One thing that I find very annoying, is the propensity for Lore video makers to completely jump on the DLC and analyse it in a void. Everyone is theory crafting like the base game doesn't exist anymore.

Everyone is taking Miquella's approach as the go to for divinity 101 and acting like only the people name dropped in the DLC matter, except for Radagon, who is very important, despite NEVER being named, ANYWHERE in the SOTE game files.

Oh no, excuse me, he's named ONCE in a delete dialogue (unless he speaks during battle but I was under the impression that he never does?) from Radahn:

Yet everyone is out there saying Marika used the gate to make herself a god and created Radagon in the process. And that he was created that way as her lord, and then immediately fathered Messmer and Melina.

But I... kind of don't see it? Why would SHE need to use a special vessel ritual like everyone is theorizing?

She already has a sworn lord : Godfrey.

Why is everyone making these Marika centric lore videos and never dropping the names of key characters?

Godfrey. Serosh. Maliketh. Why is nobody asking themselves WHEN did Marika get granted her "brother" Maliketh by the three fingers? Why is nobody making speculation on whether she had a pact with Hoarah Loux before becoming a god.

He could very well be the vessel needed. He doesn't need to have his soul separated from a body or any such nonsense. That's what Miquella ended up doing because he had no choice if he wanted to use Radahn.

Here is what we know of Godfrey :

Godfrey was a ferocious warrior. When he vowed to become a lord, he took the Beast Regent Serosh upon on his back to suppress the ceaseless lust for battle that raged within. The first demigods were The Elden Lord Godfrey and his offspring, the golden lineage. Crown of Godfrey, the first Elden Lord. The age of the Erdtree began amongst conflict, when Godfrey was lord of the battlefield. He led the War against the Giants. Faced the Storm Lord, alone. And then, there came a moment. When his last worthy enemy fell. And it was then, as the story is told, that the hue of Lord Godfrey's eyes faded. Helm of the Crucible Knights who served Godfrey, the first Elden Lord. Weapon of Godfrey, Elden Lord. It was broken in a battle fought as leader of the Tarnished during the Long March. This weapon is symbolic of Godfrey's vow to conduct himself as a lord, later becoming an emblem of the golden lineage. In the days of the past, a crown was warranted with strength.

The first demigods were The Elden Lord Godfrey and his offspring, the golden lineage.

This line either means that the voice of the game is lying, wrong, or not knowledgeable enough. Or that Messmer is not a demigod, or that Messmer is the son of Godfrey.

And while he does have red hair, he is cursed with a red flame... And his little sister, Melina, doesn't have the distinctive red hair of Radagon's children. She's also not a demigod as far as we know.

Messmer and Melina are named M like Mohg and Morgott! We have plenty of hints that they could be Godfrey's children, first and foremost being the canon base game text asserting all demigods first descended from him. We simply don't know otherwise.

It's also asserting he was the first Elden Lord, and not second or a later addition.

There's also his vow to conduct himself as a Lord, which seems like something he might have done prior to Marika making him Lord.

The beast depicted is Serosh, aged counselor who guides the golden lineage. The black nails protruding from golden fur are said to represent Serosh, Lord of Beasts, who went to become King Godfrey's Regent.

Serosh is very mysterious, and we just know he's some sort of limiter. I've made plenty of posts arguing for Maliketh and Serosh being the same type of beasts from the same global origins.

Beasts are reverred by the Hornsent! Our first boss is their storm beast guys, and the head looks quite similar to Serosh. Who, BTW, is also a spirit form?? Who turns real on command?

All this to say, it doesn't sound impossible at all, to me, that Marika would have come to the gate of divinity already having a lord lined up -- Godfrey -- and counsellors giving advice on how to execute her plan : Serosh and Metyr mother of fingers.

I assume it would be in Metyr's power to grand Marika her (necessary?) Shadowbound beast.

Isn't it interesting that Maliketh is a Shadowbound Beast? In our Shadow Realm DLC? He's never mentioned in the files, sadly.

But all of these people are key to Marika's ascension. I wish people would think about them more when they do their lore videos and not just roll right into creating Radagon out of thin air.

What bothers me most about the secret rite here, is that it says "the secret rite of the divine gateway", like THE rite, not A rite. It could be THE other one is not secret...

But more importantly, the line "usher in a god's return" just really does not fit EITHER of Miquella OR Marika. Neither of them is returning!! Maybe the God of Placidussax would be returning, but both Marika and Miquella are/try to ascend for the first time.

Miquella is also the only one with anyLord shennanigans we know of for sure.

I think Miquella divests himself of everything in order to comply with this ritual. So he has something to "return to". He sheds everything, so that he can pass through the gateway. But he's returning to an Empyrean's birthright. To a demi-god.

But we don't know that this is something Marika would have needed. We don't know that she used this specific ritual. After all, circumstances are VERY different for her :

The Gate of Divinity is fresh and bloody, implying a recent mass sacrifice. And then she plucks Gold from a corpse or receptacle of some sort.

None of this is depicted in Miquella's return, and he's not trying to emulate his mother, because her way of doing things came with a curse loaded "original sin". So we even have reason to believe Miquella would not actually be replicating the same ritual.

[gobbogoo]

Hey... is Zorayas/Rya the daughter of the Winged Serpent??

According to the Winged Serpent Helm:

"It is a wise friend which keeps the base serpent at bay and holds its power in check."

I don't know about you, but that describes Rya to a tee. She's like this kindly counterbalance within Volcano Manor; inexplicably wholesome, and capable of drawing kindness from people like Lady Tanith and EVEN PATCHES. (He's watching over her from afar in Liurnia, and directs you to her to help her.)

We all assumed Rya was born from the Blasphemous Serpent, but it has grey scales and yellow eyes. Indeed, it always confused me why she had a different colour-scheme than the other man-serpents, why she alone was considered special among them, and why she was so darn NICE compared to them. Perhaps Lady Tanith and Rykard intended for Rya to one day rein in the Blasphemous Serpent after it had served its purpose?

[starfreak]

Random Elden Ring Rant (Contains Spoilers, VERY LONG)

So, the Numen. We can choose it as a character preset, which tells us they come from another world, or another land. I say "or another land" because historically, America is referred to as the "New World," but it's not a separate planet. However, translations from the Japanese version of the game suggest that the world they come from is one of spirits, the dead, etc., so it could definitely be a Literal other world.

Marika is (rumored to be) a Numen, as are the Black Knife Assassins that participated in the Night of Black Knives.

If Marika is Numen, then it stands to reason so is Radagon, since they are the same person in the same body. This means their children together, Malenia and Miquella (and now presumably Messmer since he has red hair like Radagon, but Miyazaki said that he's the child of Marika, so unless there's another red-haired hottie running around the Lands Between, Radagon is the father), are also Numen. This also means that other children of Marika/Radagon are half-Numen.

It seems Numen are not a single ethnicity, but a whole race of people, with various different contradicting skin tones and hair colors. The template in the character creator has medium-dark skin and brown hair. Marika has pale skin and golden hair (possibly changed to be gold from the Greater Will's influence) and Radagon has the same skin with fiery red hair. We know from the Giant's Red Braid item description (below) that Radagon was either cursed by the Fire Giants or simply born with red hair. I mean...no item descriptions suggest he was born with it...but if I was born with hair I hated, I would blame it on a curse too. Though, to be fair, it IS the same color as the Fire Giants' hair.

Also the Black Knife Assassins have no physical form, so we can't discern their hair or skin colors.

So skin tone seems like a non-factor, but Hair is much harder to parse, due to half the Numen in the game having fiery hair and pronouns. The game says nothing about Marika's hair changing to gold, so it may have always been that color, leading me to believe that indeed, Numen are just...magic humans from a land far away...she's just blonde.

WELP.

That's all cool, but what is the culture of the Numen like? Well we can see that they have a very strong affinity for women and femininity. Not only is Marika, the most powerful Numen we know, a woman...all of the Black Knives are women. Additionally, if we choose to believe that Malenia and Miquella are Numen, this fact is further evidenced by Malenia's being a strong warrior woman (she is literally a Valkyrie) and Miquella's own complex gender identity. Miquella was (supposedly) born male, but presented as rather feminine/androgynous all his life. While Malenia is a masculine woman and reflects Radagon, Miquella is a feminine boy reflecting Marika. Not to mention that Miquella is ALMOST DEFINITELY Saint Trina, who is exclusively referred to as feminine.

In addition to the stong feminine aspects of Numen society apparent in the overabundance of strong fem-presenting characters, the description of Marika's Hammer suggests that women in Numen society (like Marika) have a role as destroyers and warriors, while men (Radagon) have a role of construction and repair.

"Queen Marika shattered the Elden Ring and Radagon attempted to repair it."

Again, this is just speculation, and the mythological actions of Radagon/Marika are likely motivated by a mutlitude of things (namely, the Greater Will constantly looming over them, the presence of the Elden Beast constantly lurking just under the surface), but I'm making do with what I have.

Also, back to genetics of the Numen again for a second, of all Radagon and Marika's children outside of the ones they had together (Messmer and the Twin Empyreans), most of them seem to inherit Radagon/Marika's hair.

Radagon and Rennala's kids, Radahn, Rykard, and Ranni, (presumably) have red hair. We never actually see Ranni's hair pre-doll form, so I'm assuming it's red lkke her brothers'.

Marika and Godfrey's kids, Godwyn, Mohg, and Morgott, all have either pale hair or no hair (Mohg has no hair visible on account of all the omen horns).

So it seems like the genes of Numen are incredibly dominant, even dominating the gene pool multiple generations after the first. Godwyn's kids, Godrick and Godefroy, have the same hair color as he does. Malenia's "daughters," although not genetically related to her, all seem to have gained her red hair through exposure to her Scarlet Aeonia. This may also be true of the Cleanrot Knights, but they could also have plucked the red hairs from Fire Giants or Leonine Misbegotten and used them as decor for their armor.

Even merely interacting with a Numen as powerful as Marika, or her direct children, can change one's appearance irreversably. Sure, this could all likely be from her status as a God, but who knows how powerful the average Numen could become if granted the strength? We become Elden Lord after all.

[onedecimatedduck]

.......did miquella ever realise Radahn's type is the same as his

Radahn loves Godfrey so bloody much, that he has to wear him on his clothes, follow the same career path, and have the same build even though his heart is a lot gentler and he is a magic user from an int family. It would not surprise me if there's a secret chest full of Godfrey's pictures in Redmane castle.

There would have been a higher chance for Radahn to be on board if it was Mohg who asked him to be his consort... I am so sorry miquella

[dr-zeddy]

I vaguely remembered I left a comment on the Fextralife page for "Fevor's Cookbook (3)" last summer

so I went back to check if it was still there and, well,

tfw your delulu ramblings about your favourite video game turn out to be right???

[honey-ink]

Hoarah Loux may have been a part of a Dancing Lion?

So DLC spoilers under the cut of course, but I was once again theorizing with @dan-from-onami about base game and DLX connections- more specifically Hoarah Loux/Godfrey and their origin!

So I think Godfrey/ Hoarah Loux may have come from the land of shadows and might have been a Hornsent without horns as well as a Dancing lion- specifically the back of the dancing lion. This might explain a few things from his children/origin/allies/why Marika casted him away. This might explain why Morgott and Mohg have their horns, but also lose them upon death. This might also explain why if Godwyn was born with fish features, it was also a crucible features without Marika knowing since she's only used to horns, wings and tails.

Now for origin I think Godfrey is a more domesticated version of what Marika wants for a lord, and that's why he wears armor and wields an axe. However, I think in the past as Hoarah Loux he might have escaped Messmers/Marikas genocide and abandoned the front half of the lion or escaped somehow before joining Marika and without her knowing his origins since he doesn't have horns. This would explain why in his boss fight (ESPECIALLY AS HOARAH LOUX) both him and the dancing lion are constantly jumping and using no weapons to attack (probably dried leaf arts? Or another form of art), In the frost phase of the dancing lion the back dancer also uses similar moves like horahfrost stomp (will link videos to compare because they are weirdly similar?). This might also explain why Serosh is actually a lion instead of the typical wolf/canine shadow like Blaidd and Maliketh.

Divine Dancing Lion Boss Fight

Godfrey/ Horah Loux Boss Fight

This probably also explains why the crucible knights were specifically Godfrey's knights/ why he chose them to be his knights, and chances are once Marika found out or at least clued in that Godfrey was probably Horsent was the real reason why she cast him and his men away because she didn't want to risk anything happening to the golden order. That would also explain why in our own character creation we can be any race or class we want, but no matter what we are tarnished because we once worked in allegiance with Godfrey/Hoarah Loux.

@dan-from-onami brought up a good point though because he didn't know how much he could believe Hoarah Loux is a Hornsent in particular because Marika at the first sight of any omen-hood will either murder them or boot them into the sewers- which makes a lot of sense now given her past. That's when I went back into the game and realized that in the intro Hoarah Loux is- like us- waking up from death. and in that cutscene he is chained up and impaled.

I'm also not sure if the Badlands and the Realm of Shadow are different, or if it might just be a situation where sometimes the Realm of Shadow is called the "Badlands" due to it's unwelcoming nature. A bit of a long rant haha but I never realized until now that we only know Godfrey/ Hoarah Loux as First Elden Lord and Chieftain Of The Bad Lands, but we don't really know what those titles entail for him or the rest of his story outside of the Lands Between.

[elffromforests]

How much of your soul was lost in the Ring, Celebrimbor?

[bellepeppergirl]

Mohg the Empyrean

I've mentioned this once before in a previous post, but I'm in the mood to go more in-depth with the idea, and I believe that Mohg is an Empyrean.

Mohg spent his entire life in the sewers due to Marika's oppressive rule over the Lands Between, which scorned those born with horns, who they deemed as "Omens." The "omen" in question was, in my belief, likely one of the Hornsent, Marika's enemy's, return. In order to not allow this return to happen, anything that reminded Marika of the Hornsent or the Crucible was punished; Misbegotten were enslaved, Omen were massacred or had their horns removed, and royal Omen were confined to the sewers for their entire life. This included Marika's own children, Morgott and Mohg.

Now, most of Marika's direct offspring seem to be Empyreans; Miquella and Malenia are confirmed to be Empyreans, Melina seems to hold the power of Destined Death, and Messmer has the power of the Fell God within him. We can assume Godwynn was also likely an Empyrean and, in a way, he sort of did ascend into godhood by becoming the Prince of Death, though this could be considered coincidental.

Onto Morgott and Mohg, while I'm not sure if anything could possibly tie Morgott into being an Empyrean, Mohg himself seems to have Empyrean traits. For starters, Empyreans all seem to have things going on with their eyes.

Malenia is entirely blind, with the Outer God of Rot's influence having taken her eye, leaving only disgusting and decayed flesh where they used to be.

Ranni's right eye is sealed, and while we have not seen her original form, only the doll form she took after sacrificing her flesh, I am willing to assume that her original form was in a similar state.

Melina also has a sealed eye, this time on her left side. When Melina opens that eye during the Frenzied Flame ending, we see a deep purple iris. It seems she inherited the power of the Outer God of Death, which was possibly the Deathbird Mother.

Messmer is in a similar state to both Melina and Malenia. He seems to be entirely blind, with one eye sealed and the other containing what appears to be a glass eye given to him by his mother. Behind this glass eye, we see a strange abyss. Messmer also seems to have been blessed with an Outer God's power, that being the Fell God's and possibly even the Base Serpent's, if we were to consider that being to also be an Outer God.

Miquella and St. Trina, another confirmed Empyrean, is never seen to open their eyes. This could indicate that they are also blind, or hiding some form of Outer God-blessed eyes.

Mohg can be seen with a horn piercing his right eye. On top of that, we know he came into contact with a confirmed Outer God, that being the Formless Mother, who gave him the power of Bloodflame and spurred on his desire to start his own dynasty.

Initially, this theory of Mohg being an Empyrean could have been debunked because, if he was an Empyrean, why would he need Miquella? But with the reveals from the DLC, this potential debunking has itself been debunked, as we now know that Miquella had been controlling Mohg the entire time so that he could use the Omen's remains to resurrect Radahn and make him his consort so that Miquella could bring about his own age.

That being said, I don't think we can entirely throw out the "Mohg needing an Empyrean" thing, because I believe that itself now also serves as evidence that Mohg is an Empyrean. With us being led to believe that Mohg wanted a consort that was an Empyrean he could corrupt for his own age, it seems like this was Miquella's own plan being leaked out.

Miquella wanted an Empyrean, Mohg, that he could corrupt by using their body to remake Radahn, who was not an Empyrean initially, to create a consort for Miquella's new age. Having two Empyreans creating a new age would ensure their own power for likely much longer than having only one.

Mohg himself seems to also have wanted to bring his own age. In the DLC, we can find more information about the Formless Mother. Namely, we learn of the Bloodfiends. The Bloodfiends were once, and debatably still are, an oppressed tribe that came into contact with the Formless Mother. They began to worship her and were slowly warped into the creatures they are today and carry her power.

Similarly, Mohg is an Omen; another oppressed group that was massacred and locked away. I think the Formless Mother favors the oppressed. Whether this is because she cares about them or just thinks it's funny to shake things up by giving the oppressed power, I can't say, but regardless, her giving them power allows for them to fight for their rights and a new age.

Throughout Mohgwynn Palace, we can find a lot of Albinaurics. The Albinaurics are another group that is oppressed thanks to them being artificial, and thus not considered holy since they bear no connection to the Erdtree. But perhaps, under Mohg and the Formless Mother's rule, they could find or create a new world where they are not treated poorly, tortured, or killed for the heinous crime of simply existing. The Albinaurics here, and the Sanguine Nobles we meet, also seem to be changing into new beings, similar to how the Bloodfiends did, as they can be seen covered in or growing horns.

So yes; I believe Mohg was an Empyrean. He is the child of Marika, and Empyrean who has birthed numerous Empyreans herself, has a similar eye situation to other confirmed or quasi-confirmed Empyreans, and is confirmed to have the power and blessing of an Outer God with the goals and capability of bringing about a new age. Miquella then took his body to make Radahn and Empyrean so they could create the Unalloyed Age.

[bri-the-nautilus]

So consensus seems to be that the golden crescent sign above the DLC graces is Miquella's Great Rune. It's been known for a while that the Omen Twins' runes complete each other, and I was wondering if that convention holds true for the other set of demigod twins.

Upper left is Morgott and Mohg's runes overlapping. Center is Malenia's rune with two different versions of how Miquella's could fit into it.

[sausage-rolll]

Shadow of the Erdtree spoilers

It just occurred to me that if Miquella wanted Mohg to stop his murder cult shenanigans then it was fully in his power to make that happen, as we see with his influence over Leda. So that just begs the question of why he wouldn't stop him.

It definitely wasn't a boundary thing as Miquella's been shown time and time again to not care less about how the opposite party feels when it comes to bewitchment.

I also doubt it was solely to get Mohg killed for his corpse either, because Mohg already had a massive target on his back just by proxy being a shardbearer. There was no need for him to continue the blood cult thing so violently for someone to come after him.

So why would Miquella allow Mohg to continue ravaging the lands between? He's one of the most powerful figure heads in the game and definitely has some of, if not the most followers aswell. Varre, Nerijus, all of the sanguine nobles, Anastasia and Eleanora all travel the lands between causing Chaos and Miquella does nothing. It's almost like he wants this to happen.

It gets me thinking about Eleanora and Yura... How despite being a proud knight she renounced everything for seemingly no reason, to become a bloodthirsty killer. How she devoted herself to Mohg despite holding the very item capable of countering him, as if she actively opposed him at some point. How she seemed almost bewitched by bloodlust. How the festering finger the killers have seemingly has a hold on them, to the point where Yura believes slicing it off would be enough to free her. As if her actions are no longer her own, and haven't been for a long, long time.

...

Maybe Miquella didn't want Mohg to stop.

Maybe he helped him continue for as long as possible.

The stronger the body, the stronger his consort would be when he returns.

Like raising a pig for the slaughter.

[art-from-within]

One sote lore question that has been troubling me concerning mohg and miquella

SO. The dlc reveals that miquella was not so kind and tender in the end, and used mohg in every way a man can. He was used by Mohg to go to shadowlands, and for his corpse to become a vessel for Radahn’s soul. I also have good enough reasons to suspect his cult and himself was being used as a blood bank, for what idk, considering there are a tad too many references of miquella needing blood/ post enchantment mohg asking his followers to ‘bathe his consort in blood’.

But one thing i am not really set on is the timeline. Biggest question is, HOW and WHEN did miquella enchant mohg? Did he visit him in the sewers way back? (The final battle with miquella shows us that he needs to be close in other to enchant someone, to steal their heart) or did mohg already have a plan to kidnap him in the haligtree, and miquella just made the best of his situation? Did he go to the haligtree because he was seduced? Or was it already on his agenda, but he bit more than he could chew?

I am leaning more towards the former, the fact that we can get the bewitching branch cookbook only after doing varre’s questline/visiting mohgwyn palace and receiving it from gideon is a huge red flag. Would this imply he sent mohg some bewitching branch drink or smth? Or shot it like an arrow? Used haligtree like an incense burner releasing pink clouds eve- okay…. (Or he stabbed him with the pin when he got close enough…could be argued either way)

Another reason i lean on this idea is that i feel miquella has more discernible motives to have mohg than the other way around. Needs his corpse, his blood, and a ticket to shadowland to become a GOD and fix EVERYTHING. What does mohg get in return….to be his wife??

I would still like to hear all you guy’s thoughts though

+ or maybe he was able to visit mohg in his sleep, through st.trina? We do know that omens suffer terrible nightmares….maybe st.trina helped him in a way

[alberichfanpage]

Okay, this is kind of out-there theory but I am going to suggest it anyway.

Nanaya has some sketchy stuff about her. In the portrait with Midra, her eyes are obscured and she is giving an ominous smirk. I even think her black hair poking out under the gold garments could be a visual cue that she is hiding something. When we find her, she is holding the frenzied spine of "a man who failed to become the Lord of Frenzied Flame." I definitely think she is meant to be a Hyetta-like figure. But that smirk reminds me a lot of Shabriri's Woe talisman, so for the sake of this theory, lets say she is a Shabriri surrogate (literally or figuratively).

It is highly speculated that Shabriri summoned the Three Fingers (probably intentionally?) by accusing the Nomads of worshipping frenzy. This caused their clan to be entombed and their subsequent suffering is what summoned the three fingers. We can infer this by the Nomad outfit description and the Shabriri's Woe talisman.

What if that was history repeating itself? This is already a theme with the DLC that we see with Miquella repeating Marika's mistakes. I also think that Marika could have just as likely repeated the hornsent's mistakes, too.

We know that the Hornsent were the ones who in power, before Messmer's crucade, when Midra's Manse was invaded because we can find horned warriors and inquisitors within the manor and the sword within Midra is a hornsent spear. And we know the servants, who are also hornsent, are blindsided by this punishment given the dialogue on the image above. The hornsent are acting as disciplinarians to deliver punishment for a crime.

What was the crime? Well, probably something to do with frenzied flame. Frenzied flame is a known within hornsent culture to not be messed with via the Surging Frenzied Flame item description. If it was obvious that Midra was messing with it, I don't think the servants would be shocked. Unless Midra wasn't and was, instead, falsely accused like the nomads.

What if Nanaya is the one who made the accusation? I mean, her body doesn't have a single mark on it while Midra got such a heavy punishment by comparison. We know she was alive enough to tell Midra to "Endure" after he is punished. Why would the hornsent spare her? I think it might be because she was an informant. Her goal might've been that she wants Midra to suffer enough to summon the three fingers and become the Lord of Frenzy.

Why would she want that? Well, clearly she is pregnant in that portrait at the top of this post and Elden Ring has a lot of themes on motherhood. Perhaps she miscarried and the flame of frenzy gave her comfort? We do see her cradling the frenzy torch like a child, it might be, but the description is vague. Maybe losing her child made her wish to burn everything away and frenzy flame called to her? This would actually parallel with Marika losing her own child and shattering the Elden Ring.

Unfortunately, whatever the plan was did not seem to work out and, instead, created another person unfit to become lord.

Still with me? Okay big theory time, @katyspersonal pointed out that the flowers in the pre-frenzy picture of Midra's Manse look like the flowers in the Shaman Village, pictured below. This could mean that Midra and Nanaya (or just one idk) is a Shaman. What if the hunting of the shamans by the hornsent, and by extension their need for more "saints" through jarring people, is a direct result of this Inquisition? What if the shamans, just like the nomads, were all punished because of this accusation? I think this could create a connection between the fact that jarring people is a punishment and why they started using shaman in their pots.

There is a lot of leaps of logic here but I thought I would throw it out there! Does not really mend well with a lot of other theories... But hey, if its all up to speculation anyway, why not throw in a mad idea?

[miquella-everywhere]

Thoughts on Messmers Origins

So since the DLC has dropped I have been thinking about our newest character Messmer and theorizing about him nonstop 😂 So here I am with the two theories that have been rotating in my head the most lol

Secret Triplet Theory

So the theory going around that Messmer is a secret brother of Miquella and Malenia definitely makes sense, but if that is the case it also brings up something that affects Miquella and Malenia and so should effect Messmer as well:

Messmer should be cursed as well.

What curse it is is unknown at this point, but it makes me think about why Messmer is decked out with so many different types of iconography; snakes, fire, and dragon communion. Maybe taking on all these aspects serves a different purpose that being a visual indicator that Messmer hates the Erdtree.

Maybe these aspects are helping him mitigate whatever curse he is afflicted with? 🤔

Like fire can burn away scarlet rot which Malenia is affected with, and Dragon Communion physically alters the participants body, so this theory might be plausible... But who's truly to say at this point 🤷

Messmer is actually a son of Godfrey, not Radagon

So I came to think about this theory mainly because of the item description for the Duelist Helm:

So to me, this implies that Messmer was branded as a traitor back when the colosseums were still widely popular and with the description for the Ritual Sword/Shield Talisman the colosseums were popular during Godfreys era and died out when Radagon became King Consort, which potentially means that Godfrey was his father, not Radagon.

(of course there's also the chance that snakes have been viewed as traitors regardless of Messmer, and Messmer just adopted them into his fuck-you-erdtree aesthetic. But for the sake of this theory lets say for now that the traitor snake is referring to Messmer)

But wait. Messmers hair is red. And if he's a son of Marika and Godfrey wouldn't that mean that his hair should be blonde????

Not necessarily.

And this is thanks to another theory centered around another characters hair:

Im talking about blonde Rykard baby 😂

So in this theory, Rykard is blonde despite being born from Rennala(black hair) and Radagon(red hair) and that is because since Radagon and Marika are the same person, that means that Marikas blonde-hair gene is present enough to allow Rykard to be born with blonde hair.

So with that in mind, couldn't that also apply to Messmer as well?

So then this also brings up the fascinating point that before Radagon was even documented in the Lands Betweens history he was potentially around during Godfreys age, or maybe the curse the last Fire Giant placed on Marika manifested in her child Messmer and she(or the Greater Will) was so shocked and appalled by this that she attempted to cast the curse aside and that was what brought Radagon into being?

But of course this is just speculation lol 😅