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mayonnaisetoffees · 3 years

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Mayo's Fic Recs

List of my favourite fics below the cut; this list is a WIP and completely personal taste; a mix of fandom classics and lesser knowns

Please remember to leave comments and kudos for the authors and podficcers!

*shows particular favourites

Fandoms currently included: Spn, Merlin, Les Mis, BatFam

Fics That Changed Me Fundamentally

Loaded March*** by Footloose. Merlin | E | 1.26M(Series)/ 35k (First part) | 188k hits (First part)

The reason SAS Captain Arthur Pendragon can’t keep a communications specialist in Team Excalibur because none of them are good enough. And then Lieutenant Merlin Emrys gets assigned to his squad, and Arthur does everything he can to prove that Merlin isn’t good enough, either. Except he is.

You can read all about my thoughts on Loaded March here, here, and here. Basically this fic series is beautifully written, has absolutely delicious UST, has found family, magic, and high stakes. It’s been part of my life for almost a decade now, I made friends through LM that I still have to this day, and it genuinely changed me as a person. Plus there are 78k of Extras to itch that I Finished Now What scratch. Parts 1-5 have been podficced and you can find them in works inspired by this one in each part.

Down to Agincourt*** by Seperis. Supernatural | E | 1.12M(Series)/ 154k (First part) | 73k hits (First part)

The world’s already over and they’re already dead. All they’re doing now is marking time until the end.

S7!Dean is transported back to the aftermath of where 5x04 The End left off. Much like LM, DtA was one that I avoided for a while. I didn’t think it would be my thing. I’m not usually into End!verse, it sounded so bleak from the summary, and it sounded so long for something I wasn’t sure about. If you’re reading this and nodding along? You are as much a fool as I was. Yes, it’s the end of the world. But it’s not over yet. This is a beautiful journey in what it means to be yourself, how to survive the end of the world, a How-To for Coups, and a study in food as a love language. I only read this fic this year, but like LM, it has genuinely changed me. Map of the World has been podficced.

Supernatural

Let’s start with the current hyperfixation. All of these are at least passively Dean/Cas unless otherwise stated. I've split into ones from my first time around in the SPN fandom and more recent ones because the vibes are actually really different and it took me some time to adjust (Not in a bad way! In a time has passed they have grown as characters way)

Old-School SPN (AKA the Classics my first time around)

Canon-Compliant or Divergent

Home in Motion* by nomdeplume13 M | 232k | 48k hits

Castiel swore he was done with spur of the moment decisions that permanently changed Dean Winchester's life. A year after the angel's most disastrous, his newest may present the largest challenge of dean's life: Fatherhood.

Did someone say kid!fic in canonverse? This is perfect. Canon divergence from the end of S6. Cas saves a baby from a neglectful mother and gives him to Dean to raise. They all move in with Bobby. Great OCs. Bobby considers Cas his son. Listen everything I say here will not be able to begin to encompass how much I love this fic. Just trust me on this one.

Named* by RC_McLachlan M | 95k | 95k hits

Jesus Christ is dead. Somehow, that isn't the worst part of Dean's week.

With a summary like that, need I say more? No but I'm gonna. This is one of the funniest fics I've ever read, but it doesn't take any emotion from the serious moments, if anything it heightens them. There are so many quotes from this I think about all the time. It was written in 2010 and so there's a bit of misogyny/character assassination of Anna in places.

Second Childhood by CloudyJenn (read by exmanhater) G | 16k (1h30) | 10k hits

"Dude, I can't do this whole thing by myself," Dean said with far more desperation leaking into his tone than he liked. It would just be too much to make it through hell and death and Lucifer only to have Castiel bail on him because of a frigging baby.

They beat the Apocalypse (OG-S5) and then Sam gets de-aged by a spell. I've listened to this so many times I know it by heart, it's an ultimate comfort fic to me.

Defy Any and All Expectation* by Tenoko1 (read by Tenoko1) M | 138k (14hrs) | 37k hits

Chuck's newly released books tell of another war between Heaven and Hell. Team Free Will sets out to try to defy prophecy, only to realize there is a lot more at stake and amiss than the not-quite-accurate words of one Prophet of the Lord. Along the way, Dean and Cas' relationship continues to evolve into something neither expected or were prepared for, all of their lives transforming in ways no one could have expected. But with no shortage of cases, monsters, and mayhem, it's going to require the help of new friends and old enemies if they're to have a hope of saving the world one more time. Alternate Season Six.

So this is a re-written version of Tenoko1's The Path We Choose which I don't think is around anymore. By the time I was reading the re-write as each chapter came out, I knew every single line of TPWC and it wasn't all that much shorter. It's such a perfect canon divergence because they are all 100% in-character. If you're into podfic, you already know what an absolute gift 14 hours is, but if you have never tried podfic before, Tenoko1 is a fantastic place to start. Her voice is soothing and energetic and her Cas sometimes comes to mind when I'm reading fic in Misha's place (sorry Misha)

His Fucking Kids 'Verse by 8sword M | 96k(Series)/ 3k (first part) | 26k hits (first part)

Jesus, the school should just have a parking spot labeled, “Reserved for the Novak-Winchesters,” because Dean’s getting sick of having to cruise around the parking lot looking for a spot every time he gets a call from the principal about Emma.

Emma survives and Dean and Cas are raising her and Claire. This fic series will make you laugh, make you cry, and (nowadays) make you wish Emma had survived to be a part of Wayward Sisters.

One Species Too Many by wallmakerrelict E | 22k | 37k hits

While Dean is laid up for a month after breaking his leg on a hunt, Cas decides that it's a perfect time to adopt a litter of kittens. But even though he's gotten better since Purgatory, Cas still isn't quite the same as he was before fixing Sam's head, and being trapped in a cabin with him for weeks on end is making that all the more obvious to Dean. When Sam takes off on a hunt, Dean has to figure out on his own how to navigate his new relationship with Cas while also helping to raise a bunch of fuzzballs that aren't even cute. Not even a little bit. (Well, maybe a little bit.)

Dean breaks his legs, and honey!Cas brings home some kittens to foster. It's achingly sweet and also painful because you know Dean wants to fix Cas but there's nothing to fix. It is tagged for ableism for this.

Tripping* by Hatteress E | 49k | 78k hits

That time the universe decided Dean belonged with Cas and wasn't afraid to pull out the big guns to make it so. Big guns in this case being obsessive fangirls, archangels turned tricksters and overly enthusiastic cupids. Welcome to Dean's life.

Alt!S5 and it is beautiful. Also any fic with Missouri is an automatic win.

Broadway Musical by Grifitings M | 12k | 79k hits

This is the day that marked the Holy and Blessed Union of Dean Winchester and Jo Harvelle. The merging of prominent bloodlines is always a grand occurrence, but breeding pedigree hunter families like Winchester and Harvelle is something to be rejoiced. It is also something to be meticulously planned, which thankfully the Host is very good at. Or, the romantic comedy where Dean Winchester and Jo Harvelle are destined to get married, Castiel is given the task of playing matchmaker and fails terribly, the entire Heavenly Host becomes a sitcom audience, God warns against male pregnancy, and Jimmy Novak is incredibly unimpressed with angels in general.

Jimmy deserves a sainthood and frankly I don't even want to hear about crack if it's not on the level of the Host yelling at Cas not to touch the butt.

Classic AUs (AKA AUs from my first time around)

Try Something Tuesday by almaasi E | 48k | 144k hits

Dean Winchester teaches a third-grade class. He's new to this whole ‘bisexual’ thing - but by pure happenstance, he meets Castiel: a particularly dapper male librarian who moonlights as a substitute teacher. Dean's curious and Castiel is willing, so why the hell not? Except, fate never intended it to be one-time-only...

This was one of the first spn fics to really really stay with me and it never really left.

Rock 'n' Roll Queer Bar by ChasingRabbits E | 127k(Series)/ 8k (Part1) | 29k hits (Part1)

Ellen and Jo Harvelle run Harvelle's Roadhouse, a bar that unintentionally becomes a beacon for wayward queer souls. Her employees: Dean, the smartass runaway with a big heart and bigger mouth; Castiel, the college drop-out turned hippie; his (surprisingly heterosexual) trouble-making brother Gabriel; and Charlie, who has been told several times that the back room is not to be used for after-hours Dungeons & Dragons games. But there's a lot of love in this place, and a new family for anyone who may otherwise be without.

This series. If you've ever felt unsure or out of place or anxious or just really felt like no-one understood you, this fic is for you. I first found this series when I was coming to terms with my queerness and I genuinely think it was invaluable. Also I am a sucker for the go for a dinner at Cas's family and end up storming out trope.

Play It All Night Long by janie_tangerine (read by Tenoko1) NC17 | 43k (4hrs)

The rom-com-ish one where Dean hosts a late night radio show, Castiel is a regular listener of his who starts calling one day and ends up calling more often than not and Dean finds himself liking it. This, until one day Castiel calls for not exactly petty reasons (just before Dean's brother Sam is visiting with his girlfriend for spring break) and things get very, very crowdy at his place. He also doesn't know it's just the beginning of it. Also features Gabriel, Chuck, Andy, the Roadhouse crew and a huge amount of music quoted. Especially Bob Dylan.

Again, this podfic has got me through many a night of insomnia. Cas calls in after a particularly shitty day and it all goes from there.

New-School SPN (AKA post-2014)

Canon-Compliant or Divergent

Tall Grass by aeli_kindara E | 57k | 28k hits

“I think we should have a garden,” Cas says. Dean looks up from his beer. He hasn’t had that much to drink, but Cas still has a vague look of unreality about him, a splash of living color that doesn’t fit in the bunker’s echoing stillness. Dean didn’t hear him coming. A lot of the time, Cas is so unobtrusive it feels like Dean has the bunker to himself, with Sam away. Dean shakes his head to clear it. “A — garden?” he repeats.

There is a reason you will see this recced time and time again. It healed parts of me I didn't know needed healing.

So Says the Sword* by komodobits E | 85k | 73k hits

The briefing was simple: ‘Stand guard over the Michael Sword until the battle is ready to commence. Await further instructions.’ Castiel doesn’t mind working security duty; he was briefed shortly after the initial salvation of the Sword from the pit, and again before taking up his position. He knows what to do. However, it’s easy to forget that the green room isn’t real. Time moves differently there, the space ever-changing to make a prison of mountains, cathedrals, salt flats, orchards, and whatever Castiel was led to believe about Heaven’s greatest weapon—Dean Winchester is something entirely unexpected

I saw ssts mentioned in like every single If you're getting back into the fandom READ THIS rec list. For good reason. It's described as "canon-adjacent in that seasons one to three happened exactly the same, but when Dean goes to Hell, he is not raised by Castiel". It's one of the most interesting concepts I've read and it's one of those fics where the writing style will stick with you. Castiel POV in a way you've never read before.

Aching in the Absence of You* by sobsicles E | 95k | 9k hits (in 5 days)

Brittle and battle-worn, Cas looks at him over coffee one morning and says, "I need to go," and Dean instantly knows that he's not coming back. He's not really sure how he knows it, but he does. It settles into the pit of his stomach, curling hot and tight like something he instinctively wants to tear out with his bare hands. He takes a breath, and it gets stuck in his throat, hitching there. It hurts, hurts, hurts when he finally exhales. "Yeah," Dean says, "of course you do," and he nods jerkily as he looks down at his phone. He doesn't say goodbye. He doesn't look up from the screen when Cas gets up and leaves the room. He doesn't finish his coffee, or move for a long time. By nightfall, Cas is gone.

If you don't already know sobsicles, I am delighted to introduce you to the person who will smash you to pieces with a hammer to put you back together Kintsugi-style. This one is post-finale but without 15x18 (it'll make sense as it goes). Cas says he's going to leave again and again Dean doesn't ask him to stay. Full of lines so beautiful they'd make Shakespeare weep, Sobsicles has this way of writing that is so evocative and paints such a clear picture. Fair warning, if you're Dean-coded, this might be A Lot.

dumbassery, denial, doing (the three d's to the destination)** by sobsicles E | 108k | 25k hits

Freedom is just one adjustment after the next. ~~~ Cas hums again. "I think you already have. It's been months since everything settled. All that's left to do is...get used to it, and perhaps—" His voice stalls out, uncharacteristically, and his gaze roams Dean's face with intensity. When he speaks next, his tone is a little raw. "Perhaps what one does with peace is...whatever they want." "What if I don't even know what that is?" Dean grumbles, arching an eyebrow in challenge. "'Cause I know damn well you don't just mean good food and a good bed and time in Baby, not simple wants like that. You mean—ya know, the big things, the wants we didn't get to have before." "Yes," Cas agrees. "If you're not sure, figure it out." "Easier said than done."

Yes, two sobsicles recs back to back. This one I read first and it still holds such a special place in my heart. A sign of a good fic is being able to picture it perfectly. The sign of an amazing fic is that when reading this I was so in Dean's shoes I could feel a pool cue between my hands and Baby behind my back. And I sobbed like a baby in this. It has probably my favourite ending ever. It's genuinely beautiful. If you don't read another on this list, read this one.

Teaching Poetry to Fish by aeli_kindara M | 52k | 14k hits

In which Castiel teaches poetry to fish. Also, himself. Also, eventually, Dean. (A series-long story, diverging slightly from canon after S14.)

The ultimate Cas character study and interwoven with poetry.

So There It Is, I've Said It All by PorcupineGirl (read by Ceewelsh) G | 4k | 13k hits

"Why, do you have something you need to say to me that you don't think I'll like?" I think I'm in love with you. "Yeah. I guess so."

Dean figures out he's in love with Cas then can't stop thinking it. This is genuinely beautiful and if you've ever had trouble actually saying the thing you're thinking, you'll relate to Dean here. I recently did the podfic for this.

you won't find this place alone by amidsizedfrog G | 9.5k |

When Claire said she was dropping out of college to pursue hunting full time, Dean said, “right,” and left the room. Or, the cross-generation conversation about formal education, choosing your own path and figuring out what it looks like to find a family. Or, in other words: "But what I do have is a GED and a give-'em-hell-attitude, and I'll figure it out." - Dean Winchester

This is a beautiful look at education in the hunter world, and I love anything that looks at Dean and Bobby's relationship and this does it perfectly. Also best cameo ever.

Seek to Know You Better by ahurston E | 33k | 23k hits

Dean and Cas, a long stretch of highway, and 36 questions empirically designed to make two people fall in love. As if they weren't already.

This is perfect. It has a lovely slow pace like it has the vibes of an indie film if that makes sense? Like it's two guys going from place to place talking. It was an instant favourite.

Newer AUs (AKA more recent AUs)

And This, Your Living Kiss* by opal_bullets M | 57k | 69k hits

Only a very few people in the world know that the celebrated and reclusive poet Jack Allen is just Kansas mechanic Dean Winchester, a high school dropout with a few bucks to his name. Not that it matters anymore; life has left him so wrung out he never wants to pick up another pen. Until, that is, a string of coincidences leads Dean to auditing a poetry course with one Dr. Castiel Novak. The professor is wildly intelligent, devastatingly handsome...and just so happens to be academia's foremost expert on the poetry of Jack Allen.

When I asked which fics were absolute must-reads for someone who'd been out of the fandom a few years, this was said repeatedly. But what really got me to read it was everyone actually told me more about what it meant to them than just the summary. It's a study in poetry, a study in learning who you are and who you used to be, and a reminder that it's never too late.

The Graveyard Shift* by riseofthefallenone, PurgatoryJar E | 620k | 175k hits

Dean’s favourite coffee shop, The Graveyard Shift, is only open after the sun goes down. Which is perfect for him, because that’s exactly when he craves coffee the most while doing the overnight at the fire hall. The coffee shop’s owner is pretty perfect too, but it’s kind of a bummer that Dean never gets to see Cas during the day. In a world where the supernatural live more or less in peace with the rest of humanity, it’s a little impolite to ask Cas just what he really is - or what his dark past entails.

A fantastic magical realism fic - magical creatures live and work with humans. Gabe and Cas run a coffee shop, Dean is a fireman, and the burn is slow and delicious and the intrigue kept me reading for like a week every single spare minute.

Painted Angels by WinJennster E | 106k | 162k hits

Author Castiel Novak has finally hit the big time, with a book based on his failed college relationship with a brilliant painter. He's put all his pain behind him, but at a book signing, he comes face to face with Dean Winchester for the first time in twelve years, and the reunion doesn't go like Cas hoped. Dean's a broken man, with a lot of scars and secrets, shoulders weighed down by his demons and self loathing. Cas sees a second chance with the man he's never stopped loving, but Dean's moved on, and is about to get married. Sam launches a "brilliant" plan to reunite his brother and his best friend, but Cas is worried it will all blow up in their faces, and he'll go through the agony of losing Dean a second time.

The first part of this I actually saved back when I was first in the fandom but I never got around to reading it (I had a To Read folder of 100+ fics that I absolutely dove into when I got back into spn) and the rest of the series finished in 2016 so I'm counting it in this section not the other. On the one hand, I wish I'd read this when it first came out. It's beautiful and heartbreaking, and so visual. On the other hand, I think I appreciated it a lot more now than I would have seven years ago. The parallel of me coming back to the old fandom that I loved dearly with Cas coming back to see someone and places he loved so much really hit. (Although coming back to the spn fandom was much easier and much less heartbreak!)

Finale Fix-Its (yeah fuck you Dabb that this has to be a whole category)

The Goldenrod Revisions by aethylas M | 66k | 15k hits

A rewrite of Supernatural’s final two episodes, expanded into a five episode arc - in which Chuck needs to be defeated, Castiel deserves to be saved, and the characters in this story get a very different ending.

Script format re-write of 15x19 and 15x20 into a 5-episode finale fix-it. As far as I'm concerned, this and chocolatecakecas's American Pie fanvid are the Supernatural finale.

break the skin (to break the barriers)* by sobsicles M | 30k | 9k hits

The first time she meets him, he's nothing more than an almost-missed appointment. ~~~ Dean is silent for a long, tense moment, then he gruffly says, "It's not for banishing the angels. It's to summon them. So, it doesn't—it's not to get rid of 'em, but to draw 'em in." Mitzi can't help but glance up at him at that. His voice is so heavy with so much unexplained pain, and she doesn't understand why, or what angels have to do with it. She knows religion can impact people. She's very aware that it can get complicated, and that it can be a huge source of pain for someone, but Dean sounds grievously wronged, somehow, as if it's a truly personal thing. She pushes through, focusing back on her job, clearing her throat before murmuring, "Well, I guess we all want angels to visit us sometimes." "Just the one," Dean mumbles. "Your guardian angel?" Mitzi asks. Dean breathes out, "Something like that. As close to one as an angel will ever get."

Therapy through getting tattoos and telling your life story to someone who obviously doesn't think it's real. Outsider!POV not just done well, but done literally the best.

Kingdom Come by ahurston E | 17k | 10k hits

Cas wakes up on the coast of Maine. He makes his way home.

I don't know if this counts as finale fix-it as it's more fuck the finale we're ignoring that. There's just so much love and care in this fic.

The Family Business by chai_lattes M | 16k | 5.5k hits

It's all over. It's been weeks since Chuck's defeat and Cas' return from the Empty. There are no threats on the horizon, no apocalypses to stop, but there's something that keeps the Winchesters from being happy. Something that's maybe always been there. On their way back from a hunt, they find John Winchester, back from the dead.

If you're anything like me, you start rubbing your grubby little hands together at the tag John Winchester's A+ Parenting like yes let's address this! This is one of the best examples of John coming back and how it jars with the life that they have built. Also Claire and Jack getting to share screentime!

Merlin

If I have a forever fandom, it's Merlin. I've always kept one foot in this fandom, and it introduced me to fandom, and most importantly to podfic which kinda had an impact. All Merthur unless stated.

Canon-Verse

Seven Magpies by syllic (read by lunchee) E | 33k (3hr15) | 58k hits

Arthur opened his eyes a minute later to the sight of seven magpies streaking across the top of the clearing, their shapes dark against the white clouds and the muted grey of the sky. He tried to remember what it was that seven magpies meant—he'd had a nurse who had sung the rhyme to him as a child—but couldn't. Arthur wakes up somewhere he doesn't recognise, but where he clearly belongs.

Okay so this is an AU but it's Canon-AU so it's going here. Fantastic role reversal fic that you will be thinking about for weeks.

and from your grace, i fell by TheDragon (read by Ceewelsh) T | 4.6k (41mins) | 13k hits

“Where’s Merlin?” he asks the maid. “Where’s that idiot of a Court Sorcerer?!” “Begging your pardon, Your Majesty. I thought you knew,” the maid replies, not daring to look him in the eyes. “He’s taken ill.” “And he couldn’t be bothered to tell me himself that he would be unable to attend today’s council meeting?” Arthur questions, voice full of acid. “He hasn’t woken since he collapsed two days ago, Sire,” the maidservant says, blissfully unaware that what she’s saying the power to stop Arthur’s heart in its tracks.

When I first read this, it had me completely transfixed. I could not stop reading. It was so raw and so full of emotion. I was then lucky enough to get TheDragon in our exchange, so I did a podfic for it and it's probably the most proud I've been of one.

Modern AU

The Student Prince* by FayJay (read by FayJay) M | 145k (15hrs) | 696k hits

A Modern day Merlin AU set at the University of St Andrews, featuring teetotal kickboxers, secret wizards, magnificent bodyguards of various genders, irate fairies, imprisoned dragons, crumbling gothic architecture, arrogant princes, adorable engineering students, stolen gold, magical doorways, attempted assassination, drunken students, shaving foam fights, embarrassing mornings after, The Hammer Dance, duty, responsibility, friendship and true love...

A classic is a classic for a reason. I'm also pretty sure this introduced me to podfics so like special place in my heart x2. Did you know if you filter AO3 by hits on Merlin, this has 426k more hits than the second result? Now that is a Fandom Classic.

Drastically Redefining Protocol* by rageprufrock (read by lunchee) E | 46k (5hr30) | 269k hits

In which Prince Arthur meets Merlin and all hell promptly breaks loose.

As I always say, if this can happen to me and I still love the fic, nothing is going to change that. Arthur hides from his duties in a cupboard and gets stuck in there with a chainsmoking med student.

Fundamental Imperfections by Starlingthefool (read by bravenclawsome) M | 12k (1hr35) | 123k hits

In which an argument about Dickens leads to a Twitter scandal, broken bones, midnight conversations, and transatlantic longing. (Or, an AU with Arthur and Merlin as moderately famous authors.)

This fic has everything: Charles Dickens, long distance texting, Morgana choking a Sherlock cosplayer with his own scarf. This is the ultimate comfort fic and I compare all fics to this even when they're incomparable. I never read the sequel because it was WIP and I was waiting for it to complete, it hasn't been updated since 2015 and apparently ends on an unhappy note, so if you're going to read the sequel you have been warned.

Les Mis

Modern!AU

Overzealous Oddities by YassHomo e/R, Courf/Cosette/Marius, Comb/Ép | G | 6.4k | 4k hits

Courfeyrac: Remember when I smashed our tv and we laughed about it? Enjolras: No. Courfeyrac: Let me rephrase Courfeyrac: I've smashed our tv, lets laugh about it.

I love me a text fic and this is in my opinion the best one around. Just look at that summary. I have quoted that so many times.

But Paris was a very old city and we were young* by GingerNinjaAbi E/R, Courf/Jehan | M | 99k | 42k hits

Perhaps somewhere in between all the cups of coffee, shots of tequila, sunny March days, terrible lumpy jumpers, love, cigarettes, drunken nights and the desire to change the world they'll all leave Paris with a degree in something. Or not. Grantaire's money is on no. But he's a pessimist who's hopelessly in love, so perhaps his opinion shouldn't count.

The ULTIMATE modern!AU tbh.

Tagged by Salomonderiel E/R, Courf/Jehan | E | 155k | 28k hits

So there's this artist. He could probably be compared to Banksy, but he's a lot more... cynical. He shares rooms with a poet who braids his hair with flowers, in a flat near Covent Garden they rent from a short-tempered shop keeper with a penchant for fans and who'd do anything if you mentioned Poland. Sometimes, the three of them will go and deface public buildings in London whilst completely smashed off their heads. And then there's this, shall we say, 'revolutionary'. He has a band of other revolutionaries, who all meet at this cafe by Borough Market. He shares rooms with his best mate, a philosophy student, spends too much time with a flirty guy who has a thing for poets, goes boxing with a guy in a red vest, wants to punch the wet sop who drools on the blonde waitress and is getting tired of this guy who keep breaking his laptops through sheer dumb luck. Thank god the hypochondriac's there to keep an (slightly too) attentive eye on their stress levels. The revolutionary thinks the graffiti artist's work is a waste of space. The artist thinks the revolutionary's campaigns are a waste of time. And all the while, the poet and the flirt drool over each other in the background...

This is perfect and it's funny and it's beautiful and it rips my heart out multiple times.

Canon

To Be Free by kjack89 (read by Ceewelsh) Gen, Cosette/Marius | T | 3.8k (32mins) | 375 hits

Three blows from a bayonet had transfixed Combeferre’s breast, followed by a fall from the barricade as he rapidly lost first blood and then consciousness. But neither of these, it seemed, was enough to kill him, as much as later he might perhaps wish that they were.

I read this because it was on a list kjack89 did of their favourite fics which don't necessarily have the same hits traffic. It's nothing I would have usually read (canon era, not e/R, MCD) but I am so glad I gave it a go. It's a study on what if Combeferre had survived the barricades too and the guilt. This stayed with me for days afterwards until I eventually messaged kjack89 to get permission to podfic it.

BatFam

Canonish (I don't know differences between canons but these are all they're superheros fics)

Robins United by laceymcbain (read by reena_jenkins) Gen | T | 49k (6h15)/ 19k (2h25) (First part) | 103k hits

Bullets, knives, a three story fall, even a fucking crowbar hadn't managed to keep Jason down permanently, but Dick Grayson (and the rest of his "family") was going to kill him with kindness.

The ultimate batbros series. Also if you haven't heard reena_jenkins' podfics before, you are welcome. Pre-pandemic I took a lot of public transport and reena_jenkins kept me sane.

batcoons by drakefeathers (read by reena_jenkins) Gen | G | 6k (49mins) | 14k hits

Jason and raccoons have a lot in common. (Additionally: his so-called family are much bigger pests than the stray animals hanging around his safehouse.)

This is funny, it's heartwarming, and it's a really good character study.

Here Comes the Sun by batsy_rocks Clark/Bruce | T | 19k | 20k hits

Clark Kent is a kind-hearted reporter working in the big city. Bruce Wayne is a stressed dad of four with no idea of what he's doing. Then they meet.

Bruce Wayne is a Tired Single Dad™. It's genuinely such a sweet fic.

#fic rec #spn fic rec #merlin fic rec #les mis fic rec

23 notes · View notes

duskdragonxiii · 3 years

Note

dusky in what ways do you think therapy would help q4?

I'll be honest i dont know the exact benefits of therapy ive only had counselling a couple of times bc it was free and i was on the brink but i do have so many many thoughts DJSKLBF

Every character in vanguard has thier own issues and while some of them are nuanced some of them are really really obvious

Aichi is very clearly depressed it's not even subtle and as someone who's been through situations that make Aichi's story relatable I think therapy is something he really needs but I've stressed before that Aichi even goes through relapses and such. Vanguard is what's helping him through it its the closest he's getting to therapy. Maybe it's from being bullied in school but Aichi has serious self esteem issues and the core of Vanguard is imagining yourself as the best version of yourself- It's really not a subtle message. Kai brought him into the world of Vanguard and it completely changed his life. Slowly but surely. Even his family note how happy he becomes after getting into vanguard and meeting Kai again. The development on aichis part is really slow but in fairness depression is just like that.

Misaki canonically has PTSD after the death of her parents (this was more severe in V series but at the same time it felt really brushed over which is a real shame) and similar to Aichi was depressed and had little interest in anything before being dragged kicking and screaming into a game she was so scared of. Once again Vanguard is the key to getting through- not over- her issues and she's far happier with her life now.

Kamui is easy to overlook bc he's younger and isn't as clearly distressed as the rest of the team but I think he has serious social issues. He's a popular kid among his peers and he thrives on enthusiasm but he's also vulnerable in his own way. He's intimidated by change and finds it hard to understand other people I think. He has a hard time feeling he belongs with people. One of those people who has so many friends but rarely lets any of them close. He found where he belongs in Q4 and thats why when he finds Kai hard to deal with he finds is especially hard. It's really hard to say what Kamui's issues are tbh but I don't doubt therapy would benefit him too. (I hc he has adhd and dyslexia but that's more of a me thing) Kai in particular has serious issues with running and hiding from his problems. He acts all cool in order to push people away. Obviously he's already fucked up from his parents death and the first person who got him to open up after that was of course Ren (and Tetsu) unfortunately as a result he didn't realize how high a pedestal he was putting Ren on that it absolutely shattered him when Ren turned out to not be the person he had been in his imagination (Don't give me any of that he changed bc of psyqualia thing, that's a metaphor and you know it and you're missing the whole point) and instead of trying to accept Ren as he was he ran away. This is addressed again in the Psyqualia Aichi arc when Aichi starts to get lost in his own power- giving Kai the painful reminder when once again someone he's connecting to might not be the flawless and innocent person he imagined them to be. The difference is, Aichi brought him close to a whole lot of other people and Aichi himself made him realize that he can't keep running and that's what brings him to his senses and able to face it.

Not Q4 but relevant; Ren has abandonment issues probably due to his shitty parents (although this is only really established in V series where things are quite different but i still think that's the case in the og) so when Kai didn't approve of his new self and worst of all walked away without even saying goodbye it sent him over the edge and he became the nasty and aggressive cardfighter we know him as in season 1- all because he wants Kai to come back to him. He has a single minded OBSESSION with Kai that's really not healthy- and while after season 1 he starts to get better he never truely lets go.

Kai and Ren could BOTH get over their issues if they would just talk about it but unfortunately they both have issues with communication that make it impossible- hence why cardfight is so important to them now. with thier imagination and putting thier true selves in this game it gives them something in common and a way to communicate through all the issues they have with eachother and at the end of LM though it's been really slow its clear that they ARE healing. It may sound silly, but Kai making an off comment about how he doesn't like the way Ren is dressed is a BIG thing for him. I could analyse this moment till the cows come home because its the first time Kai manages to express himself with words, clumsy as it is. What "I don't like the old you" really means below the surface is I know and accept that you have changed. And Ren's playful response being "Then you like me as i am now?" while he is being playful that in itself means I'm still not the person you want me to be I will never be that again but I'm happy that you can finally see me as I am. It's really important to me....

Anyway Sorry for this ramble i really feel strongly about cfv LOL welcome to my KaiRen agenda--

#answer time #THIS IS SO LONG IM SO SORRY #i have to rewatch cfv bc honestly i dont remember much abt kamui and im so sad bc i love him

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random-ran-me · 3 years

Text

Drink the sea water~

Warnings: dehydration passing out running away mention of vore

Ranboo felt his head pound with pain from the lack of water and cursed himself for thinking he wouldn’t need any before he left-

Ugh why am I so stupid?! He Face palmed making his head scream at him from the pain, he sucked in a breath trying not to make a sound

You see his parents in fact the whole village Believe in fairies but not the kind you’re thinking of! Old stories tell that in the woods by creatures with wings just a little bit bigger than humans they have fangs and are often hybrids, and the worst part of it all was.. they eat ender hybrids of the overworld-

Not the end

Not the nether

But the overworld

And ranboo really didn’t feel like running into one of them- honestly he wasn’t even sure if they were real or not or if his parents just told him the stories to keep them out of the woods

He shivered from the thought of it

He felt like he was beginning to pass out and he needed to get water soon. And he meant soon.

Just then he heard the Ocean how was he just hearing this? He didn’t know but he figured there’s water there-

(Cats can drink sea water and it will filter so I made it so Ranboo could drink sea water because catboo)

A breeze rushed past him and the oak trees near him.. he found a sort of path that maybe animals or people have made and decided to follow it

As he got closer he could see through brush and trees there was a cliff, looking out on the ocean, now this would’ve been great! Like hey water and a beautiful scene but… right there

Singing a melody was a fairy.

Ranboo new he should be running for his life right about now but he couldn’t help but listen to the melody

“Dropped out of college”

“Found myself a new World of knowledge”

And so on, ranboo decided it would probably be a good idea if he left before it knew he was there, so as he began to quietly run well as quietly as he could anyways,

He felt his foot caught, on what? you might ask well of course a willow tree root that decided it was going to be a murderer today-

Ranboo let out a squeaky yelp as he was only a child

(did I mention he was 12)

He fell face first into a bush, ow- he groaned in pain,

Welp guess this is how he dies he thought to himself,

Tubbo had just been singing his song but all of a sudden he herd someone yelp out-

He quickly turned looking behind his shoulder to see a Half human half enderman? He didn’t know but it was quite an intriguing creature,

He got up immediately to see if it was ok, “are you okay” he asked quietly

The creature had just began standing up as he said it probably not realizing that he was behind it-

It yelped and stumbled backwards tripping again this time falling on its back, “oh my! Are you ok?” Tubbo said worry stemming in his voice,

The creature immediately pushed itself backwards and up against the willow tree, The breeze blew past as Tubbo kneeled closer to it realizing it was just a child, the wind blew his hair and ears to the sides,

“P-please don’t t hurt me” the kid trembled

Man this kid really is scared I wonder why?

Ranboo hadn’t really expected the fairy to move that quickly but he was cornered nonetheless..

He didn’t really feel like dying so he asked very scared to maybe Kinda not be murdered

Just then he felt the pain come back stronger than ever- Enderman usually don’t need to drink water but if they don’t have it for a really long time they need to replenish, and when they get headaches from dehydration it’s 10 times worse then a normal headache,

He grabbed his head in pain his eyes went slit mode like a cats from the pain, he clenched his jaw from the pain

He felt the world around him starting to go black

“O-oh.. n-no” he said slurring his words

And then.. everything went black,

Tubbo had watched the whole thing play out, trying to ask if the kid was OK? But all he had gotten as a response eventually was the kid clenching his head and looking like he was about to die,

Tubbo slowly climbed under the tree picking up the small boy, Tubbo was glad he was small though or he wouldn’t be able to carry him,

Tubbo walked to the cliff and fluttered his wings getting him off the ground, The wind blew in his face as he slowly lowered himself off the cliff,

His dad usually wasn’t home so he didn’t really worry about that as he flew into a cave that was just underneath the cliff top, it was like a normal house just a cave,

He flew in and set the boy down on a couch almost comedically to big for him

He went to the kitchen off to the Side of the living room, and grabbed some water and cut a small piece of bread

He swiftly walked back over to the couch, he placed the food next to the ender hybrid,

Ranboo woke up to see the fairy sitting next to him on a couch playing the ukulele, so good news he wasn’t dead, Bad news he was still here,

Ranboo felt his head pound from pain when he saw a cup of water that was surprisingly normal sized?

He ever so slowly and carefully inched towards it hoping that no one would notice The no one being the fairy,

He drank the cup of water so fast he didn’t even know he could do that- that’s just how fast it was

He left the bread feeling sick from chugging the water and not having eaten anything in a couple of days,

Now what he thought to himself

“Oh you are awake!”

He cringed hearing the voice-

“Ummm I should probably introduce myself”

“Hi! I’m tubbo”

Ranboo turned to look at the giant fariy

He let out a unstable shallow breath

“I-lm ranboo”

He needed to get out of here and fast-

Because there’s no way that it wanted to just be friends, in fact it probably wanted to swallow him hole.. he shivered thinking about it

“Do you need more water?”

“No.. I’m fine”

Maybe it didn’t know he was an ender hybrid, he decided to play it cool..

“Ok if you say so- why did you pass out?”

“Uhhh uhh natural causes?”

Ranboo shrugged nervously, did he seriously just say natural causes?! Really? Really? He was so screwed-

“Umm you’ve lost me here big man”

ranboo almost burst out laughing from the nickname,

“never mind!”

“I-uh ok”

Ranboo tried to stand up on the soft surface of the couch but failed and fell on his butt-

“Oof” he made the noise unintentionally but couldn’t help it as he fell to the ground

The now named Tubbo just laughed at him

“Here” was all he Hurd before he was picked up by two giant hands One of them each supporting his armpits to hold him up

“Wh-woah!” He was placed in the fairy’s lap, he shivered out of fear maybe it had finally saw him as a ender hybrid and not human? he didn’t even know anymore

“So why are you out here all by yourself?”

“I should really be going now!” Ranboo tried an excuse

Tubbo suspected that the kid would ignore his question, he probably had run away and didn’t feel like telling the teenager

“Oh no you don’t” he said as the kid tried to get up again

“AhH!” Ranboo couldn’t help but let out the diss formed scream

Tubbo heard the scream the boy let out and let go off him, “oh I’m sorry! I didn’t mean to scare you!” Tubbo felt bad now he should’ve known that a child would be scared of him

Heck he was like 10 times his size of him! He has no reason not to be-

Ranboo lay still on the teens lap ”it’s-it’s-ok..” he managed to say

Tubbo poked at him a bit, “do you need help?”

“With what?” Ranboo really wanted to say with what dying but refrained

“Getting up?”

“I’m fine”

“Uh listen you don’t need to be scared of me, I won’t hurt you I promise”

Ranboo perked up slowly

“Promise?”

“Promise”

“Now that we trust each other a little bit more, will you tell me why you are alone?”

Ranboo had to think about it for a second,

“Okay…”

“I ran away from home..”

“Why?” Tubbo asked but he kind of knew the whole time..

“I just didn’t want to be there any more”

Something told tubbo that the kid wasn’t telling the truth completely but he wasn’t going to force him

And.. to be continued

I know I know but I need to write something because I’m working on a bunch of other things and I needed to write something short on the weekend before I go back to school

#tubbo #mcyt #ranboo #mcyt g/t #my story

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louseegoosey · 3 years

Text

story time abt gôödwíll

it is one of the great joys of my life to lift from goodwill. i hate them so fucking much.

so there’s a manager and employee who try to tag team me and catch me every time i go in (tho sometimes they’re more aggressive abt it then others), but they literally never do. typically, they keep an eye on me to watch what i’m picking up, then after i go to the dressing room they’ll check it to see if i left anything (i don’t), they’ll come by my cart to see what i don’t have anymore (which never works bc i always cover my cart up w clothes so you can’t see shit). also after i go thru a clothes section, they’ll go through it and try to find empty hangers. so this one time, idk wtf was going on, maybe they made a blood pact to catch me, idk. so i go out to my car to drop off a load of stuff. they FOLLOW ME to try to catch me dumping it w some lame ass excuse abt me forgetting my water bottle (it wasn’t even reusable lol). then when they couldn’t see me doing anything, the employee looks at the manager and shakes her head like nope, didn’t catch her. meanwhile, i’m laughing my ass off. one of the biggest ways i avoided being caught was by watching my ass. i saw them coming behind me.

so here’s a couple of other tips that saved me. sometimes i go into a store and want more stuff than i can realistically fit in my purse in one trip (i don’t do body concealing). so i fill up my purse, take a load of stuff out to my car, dump it, then go back in. you definitely need a structured purse for this (and a reason to go outside in case someone asks. ‘i forgot my wallet’ is a great one). i would NEVER do this at a store like ult@ bc i think it would look sus af there. i have done this successfully at gôödwïll, w@lm@rt, and grocery stores.

when i’m heading out on a haul where i know i’ll be tempted to do this or that the amount of stuff i wanna get means i’ll have to do this, i grab a few things ahead of time.

1. reusable bags. preferably large, dark color, and not see through at ALL. think: could a cop shine a light in my window and see thru this bag? i keep 1 or 2 in the front seat. when i go to my car, i put my purse flat in my lap with the reusable bag right next to it, pull things out of the purse, and slide them into the bag. trying to minimize the chances someone will see the items.

2. a newspaper and a dark sweater. if i’m in the middle of moving things from my purse to the bag and someone pops up out of nowhere, i have these on hand to quickly cover up what i’m doing w my hands. the sweater would be to cover my lap/hands, the newspaper would be to cover the other seat if i have stuff laying on it like tools or bigger items. keep them close by so you can do this in like 2 seconds.

3. a black shirt or tank top. idk abt u guys, but on my structured purse, there are little side sections that are not covered by the zipper. they’re abt 1 inch by 1.5 inches wide. pretty small, but big enough so that if someone were to get close enough, they might be able to see that i’ve got products in there. bc this is the purse i use literally every single time i lift, i always use this trick. after i’ve concealed everything in my purse, i take the tank top, lay it over the top of the items, tuck it in around them so none of the items are showing, then zip up my purse. so if someone were to look in those gaps, all they would see is black. it would look like my purse is empty.

re: transferring items in the car— i also make sure i park in a spot that has the following requirements: far enough away from the door that i’d have enough room to put some space between me and someone chasing me, facing out so there’s no car in front of me in case i need to make a quick getaway, close to a parking lot exit, not under any parking lot lights (so someone can’t look in to see what i’m doing), preferably not with cars on one or both sides. this way, i can get away quick and easy if i need to and it lessens the chance someone will see me transfer items.

here’s how these tips helped me at gôödwïll. i parked far from the door with no cars around me, the manager and employee had to walk farther which gave me more time to transfer items and conceal. i was almost done transferring everything into the reusable bag when i saw them in my rearview. i quickly shoved the last few things in, folded over the top of the bag so it was sealed off, and put it in the seat next to me. i didn’t have time to zip my purse or put my wallet and keys and stuff back into it, so i put the newspaper over those items and put the sweater over the top of my purse. when they looked in the window all they saw was a purse, a bag, and a newspaper. 0% sus. after they shared a disappointed look, the manager muttered, ‘u forgot ur water bottle.’ and i was like, ‘oh! thanks, but actually i just forgot my wallet in my car, so i was gonna come back in, that’s why i left it in there. thanks though!’ ::sugary sweet smile:: and then she did this like grimace/sneer thing that i think she was trying to make be a smile? anyway, never got followed again (knock on wood) ✌🏻😎

#sorry if this is long-winded #i really just wanted to be thorough #and give as much advice/insight as i can #the goose speaks #mine #tips

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bciwasinlove · 3 years

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Ask your law student friend why Louis has such bad lawyers that they missed really bad clauses in his contracts that are different from everyone elses so much so that he can't even sue while other XF have and others have said no including Leona Lewis Rebecca Fergusson others like Little Mix left and so many spoke out about the industry for decades while only Louis cannot. I mean even Zayn and Liam spoke out about what was going on, controll and how they didn't let Zayn change hairstyles etc

Hello anon I assume this is in response to my reblog of Allies @skepticalarrie post? Well first off my mutral seems to be offline bc she isn't answering DMs [so if she comes on later with a response I will edit this post and add her response] but I don't even need to ask her or any of the rest of my GC to give you an answer to this. It's simple the people you listed like Leona Lewis and Rebecca Ferguson all have things in common that they don't share with 1D. Those former Xfactor UK contestants never got big outside the UK unlike 1D who was known EVERYWHERE. Even Little Mix as big as they are in the UK they never got worldwide big like 1D. This is mostly because Simon being Simon only caring about money wanted LM big in the UK and 5H big in the US and if LM tried to cross over to the US it wouldn't allow both groups to make him money.

The bigger an act/star you are the less control and leeway you have while the smaller you are the more control you have and easier it is to get out of things. Over 90% of former Xfactor contestants/Syco artists that have spoken out about all the issues never got to 1D level fame and at best were big in the UK only. Leona only had one decent hit song here in the US and then no one in the US heard from her again. 1D being WORLDWIDE famous and apart of a boyband who [in the labels eyes] all their fans were young women who dreamed of dating them meant they were under heavy contract so their was much less of a chance they could speak out.

SO as you stated some of the members have spoken out but they spoke out about obvious things like being heavily over worked [5 years, 5 albums, 4 world tours] and their PERSONAL health and the ways they dealt with being over worked they never really said anything that would make people outside the fandom glance at Syco/Simon. None of the members who spoke out went oh yeah Simon and his label gave us all fake images, closeted some of us and treated us like garbage yada yada. On top of that the reason Louis has been the one who hasn't spoken out about anything is because it's been damn well clear out of ALL the members Syco/Simon kept the biggest eye on Louis.

They were the most scared of Louis they knew out of all the members HE was the one who would risk it all to expose their asses! LOUIS was the one who fought for them to produce their own music, LOUIS was the one who fought for them to write their own music and change their sound everything that changed about 1D was LOUIS doing. They kept Louis on a figuritive dog leash because they knew he was the one they needed to watch out for which is why Louis was still stuck with Syco/Simon after 1D went on haitus while the other members were under different Sony labels. There's a rumor flying around other major labels wanted Louis for his solo career but Simon/Syco stopped that from happening.

They have always tried to screw Louis over and it was clear when Louis was suppose to release his first album and go on tour in 2018 but instead they had him be a judge on the Xfactor. He gets almost ZERO promo and out of all the 1D members he is the ONLY one who doesn't get radio play [at least here in the US]. The main thing Simon did to try and screw Louis over in a way that would be long lasting way after he was our of the picture is babygate. If one believes the media lies and the stories "that are for the sun" than Louis seems like a pretty shit person. They are now so deep into babygate they don't even know how to end it but even if it did end tomorrow it clearly did the lasting damage Simon wanted on Louis. Babygate was all about control and wanting to ruin Louis because they seemed to have a personal vendetta against Louis.

Anyways back to the main point all this isn't to say Harry hasn't wanted to expose them to but since 2014 the Azoffs had been circling around Harry just WAITING to snatch him up for his solo career and I believe Jeff saw how Harry was being treated so he made Harry believe if he came with him and Columbia things would be better for him, Harry believed him and since the Azoffs have more power than Simon it wasn't hard for them to take Harry from Simon/Syco.

I do think it was easier for Simon/Syco to scare Harry into doing as they said. We have seen since the beginning Harry was always scared of what others thought of him [ex: painted his nails back in 2012] and overthinking most things so they 100% played on that feeding him lies [from when he was ONLT SIXTEEN A KID] as to what would happen if he didn't listen to them and how "they know what's best for him to succeed" where as Louis he never gave a damn, saw through the lies easily and was definitely the one who stood up to them especially when they did something he didn't agree with to another member.

That's why Louis is the one who hasn't spoken out he the one they put on the biggest leash making sure he would stay quite because they KNOW he was the hardest one to control and they DON'T know what would happen the minute he is off his leash. His Directors Cut MV tells the whole story of how much the "evil one" tells him what he can and can't do and the consequences he will face if he goes against them. He's been on a massive leash for a long time he is now gone from Syco so I can only HOPE something is going to happen SOMETHING will change but only time will tell.

#louis #harry #1D members #LM #leona #rebecca #xfactor contestants #people speaking out against syco #louis is on a tight leash #babygate #harry was always more scared #louis was the one felt like he had to protect the others

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pilferingapples · 5 years

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Shoelace Fandom!!! Shoelace Fandom!!! Aaa okay, Nerval or Borel? Or if you want, Feuilly for Les Mis? :D

He Just oh wow Many Lots , thank you for the distraction!

Borel:

First impression: I’m certain it was just reading someone mention on a post that he was something of an inspiration for Bahorel’s character. I thought “ oh, I love Bahorel, that’s so funny , I should look into that.”

Impression now- WELL GEE HE SURE AS HECK WAS I FRIGGING GUESS , who gave this fictional character a gateway into existing in real life?? how was this an actual person?? ..also, following on that: how did this apparently somehow For Real Actual Person who was, by the account of pretty much everyone who even saw him across a crowded theater just once, one of the loudest, most noticeable, most standout people in a movement full of incredibly noticeable people managed to just do a History Fade?? if it weren’t a few minor historical artifacts I’d be half convinced he was a persona the Young Romantics made up as a symbol and group pseudonym for their most controversial work!

Favorite moment: ...the guy is nothing but Alarming Stories By Friends but I think him demolition-ing his own construction project because someone wanted it to look Neoclassical is surely one of the best, even if it is apocryphal (and I don’t know that it is even!! we all know he would! )

Idea for a story: ...what could I even make up about him as a person/character that people don’t already say he actually diduh Sentaii AU? Sentai AU. The Jeunes France as a whole are so prime for it , anyway- they even color coded themselves! how often are historical groups that convenient for us, really XD

Unpopular opinion: definitely not uncommon in our tiny cenacle , but I think his role in the Romanticist /weirdo artist community is still underestimated--extremely so, even. but if I get into that more, this will get WAY too long for a three character ask game..!XD

Favorite relationship: ...dang it I really want to know more about him and Gerard , they seem to have been incredibly close for a while in a very particular way (and no I do not mean just ‘ probably they were sleeping together’ , that’s almost a given in this group, but they seem to have had a particular...I don’t know, Understanding Of Mutual Strangeness? , that really stands out between two people who were, yes,both notably Unusual but in very different ways)

Favorite headcanon- I appreciate how we all seem to have accepted that Petrus Borel Never Dies, he will Forever Appear Bearing Illegal Literature In Times of Social Disorder. It’s What He’d Want.

Nerval

First impression- this one I actually heard about outside of LM fandom first...as “ the guy with the lobster” . Well.

Impression now-- oh geez I’m super emotional about him, BUT: I think he’s been unfairly treated by even a lot of his post-death fans in being reduced to a Tragic Figure? Reading his own actual work, and even his personal letters, he’s strikingly funny, self-aware, and aggressively engaged with the world in a way I often find missing from writers considered to be more “ realistic” . I admire the hell out of how he managed to write out so much of his own vision of the world and stay so curious and involved in life while dealing with severe untreatable mental health issues and the nightmareverse that was the first-half-of-19C France.

Favorite moment- LET’S GO TO OLYMPUS , it’s just one God Mountain, how far can it be??

Idea for a story- ..listen if I could work out how I want a Magnus Archives AU to resolve--- ! but I can’t! but I keep thinking about it!!

Unpopular opinion- I really do not like the way he gets talked about as a Helpless Tragic Figure? He managed to have a full, independent life, travel, write, work with some of the most famous people of his day, and was a central figure in his own community,while dealing not only with the problem of his mental illness but the really terrifying situation of how people in the 19th century treated people with mental illness. I get exhausted dealing with ableism now, he was out there looking people in the eye who knew he’d been institutionalized and were openly surprised he was out again and he was still demanding respect. Badass.

Favorite relationship- see above, but I also want to know more about his relationship with his mother’s family, especially his aunt?

Favorite headcanon- He Just Turned Into a Bird And Flew Away, Okay

Feuilly:

First impression

“ ...why is he so hung up on Poland? Is he Okay?” (listen, I was 21, I am a USAn, my knowledge of international history was Not Super)

Impression now

We should cut all Gillenormand’s big speeches and give the pagetime to Feuilly to talk about International Affairs. No but seriously, he’s come to have such a distinct personality to me through his Symbolism and his tiny moments in the barricade sequence ! I love him, he deserves More Time-- and yet I realize if Hugo actually put More Time into writing a specific worker that would probably have been Not Great, so...good job knowing your limits on this maybe, Hugo??(also I remain baffled that an Orphan With A Mysterious Past in a sprawling 19C novel never has that past examined even a little , he’s just an orphan! we don’t know why! we never learn anything about his family! it’s practically daring.)

Favorite moment

His sense of betrayal at the barricade! It’s such an idealistic moment--even after 1830, he really expected the high-profile republican leadership to come through for them!-- and I really appreciate that at least one of the fighters there gets to be angry that they’ve been left out to dry (they were! they really were!) instead of needing to be Better Than That.

Idea for a story

..if I were going to try to write fic, I would probably try to write the series where Feuilly has Various Roommates, with Hilarious Results :D I’d also love more research-powered fic about him in his life outside the Amis group? the One Guy in the atelier (who’s not the boss/shop owner) is a really interesting hook!

Unpopular opinion

..I don’t think of him as a redhead, still :P --Is it still Relatively Unpopular to think that Feuilly is popular? I don’t think he’s an isolated person outside of Les Amis at all; he’s a community-minded guy who cares warmly about other people and seems like he’s especially concerned with the situation for immigrants, there are surely more invitations and requests for his company than he can ever answer on his schedule.

Favorite relationship

--with Enjolras, both for what (tragically little ) we see of it, and for the sheer Symbolism XD

Favorite headcanonPractically everything about Feuilly’s life is headcanon!XD-but probably my favorite is that he’s an oblivious Neighborhood Dreamboat with a dozen people swooning over him. He doesn’t mind! He doesn’t notice! He thinks it’s just great how everyone in his apartment is happy to talk about international justice!

#...well that took a while #but it's a lot of asks !#thank you!#long post #four people and a shoelace #aflamethatneverdies #answereds

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migleefulmoments · 4 years

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how entertainment media works

People Magazine exists to make money. Period. They make money by selling ads. In the print magazine that means literal print ads. They sell subscriptions because each subscription is a guarantee to their advertisers that X number of people will see their ad. The more people subscribed -the more money they can charge. With the website, the ads are clickable links but even if you don’t click the ad, they want to keep you clicking on People stories as long as possible because you see more ads.

Ok, so now we know what motivates them when they are writing stories-MONEY. They need to produce content to make money and they need to produce content that people are interested in aka the hottest stars and hottest shows, stars and their families, the most screwed up stars and reality stars, murder, death, and feel good stories compromise People’s formula.

Hollywood is a no-brainer for them to cover because Patti LuPone, Ryan Murphy, Jeremy Jordan, Darren Criss, Rob Reiner, and lots of beautiful people. So they do a cute story with Darren. The world is in quarantine so shows aren’t being made and nobody is walking red carpets or attending galas and celebs are staying home. They can’t do photoshoots and they aren’t hearing about big breakups because people aren’t out and about. They have very little to cover right now and everyone is looking for feel good stories. Darren’s first anniversary just passed, everything Darren has said publicly since his wedding has been about how happy he is being married and how much he loved the wedding. IDK whether it came up in the conversation or Darren was asked about his marriage, but they got some good quotes that make a great happy story and they got another page of content during the Covid shutdown. Most fans love seeing stories about celeb’s personal lives (even if their significant other has “No claim to fame”) so the story will be popular which all together make the story a no-brainer.

The clickable links to old stories are to keep you clicking. The more Darren stories they can put in front of your eyes the longer they may keep you on People’s website looking at those ads.

Darren’s team isn’t planting the Mia stories and the old recommended stories- anyone suggesting that sounds like a complete loon- in fact, they sound like the “‘Merica Freedom” people protesting the lockdown by congregating at the state Capitol- INSANE. The crisscolfer storyline is not backed up by any credible evidence- not one shred of evidence just like the protesters who scream “This is a hoax” or better yet “the Democrats did this”. If you are going to stand up and be an asshole over something you now nothing about, at least try to sound educated. Understand of what you speak instead of making it up in your head to be whatever it is you need it to be. ”It will miraculously go away” “I hear that bleach kills the virus, are we looking into that as a treatment? You can look into that?” Just like Donald, your sycophants will never tell you how crazy you sound but you both sound like fools.

BTW- Darren and Chris are Also listed as “audience members” on IMBD for Dancing with the Stars so please let that go.

Anonymous asked: Well she hijacked his H/wood press. His dad’s death. And got her fake wedding published in a major magazine along with an article about her fake life. Life goal achieved. Can he be free now? It boggles the brain that his team was able to get an absolute nobody so much attention and steal his moment. Again. I challenge her fans to ask themselves why this was published. She’s a nobody and not interesting. I was feeling so positive about his press. And then his team attacked.

Cassie Nonnie, it disgusts me on SO many levels. But hey, she got what she ultimately wanted. The same magazine as LM, only 14 months too late. Even if those articles were scheduled to print, when his dad passed, they should have been postponed. Instead, one was literally linked to the article that said he was mourning the loss of his father. Why the hell did they think anyone wanted to read about a person that has no claim to fame outside being a beard for a celebrity?

The article about her fabulous made up career is just sad. How is anyone supposed to take you seriously when you quit every job you’ve ever had handed to you, or they simply take it from you because you suck so much at it? Or when you have an IMBD page that lists you as an audience member for a reality dance competition show? Her whole existence is a bad joke. Which would be fine, if she was even a halfway decent person. She’s not. She’s like a negative postal worker. Nothing stops them, not snow, not wind, nor sleet, nor hail, nor a deadly virus. In her case, nothing stops her narcissism, not a fake resume, not a “husband” that refuses to willingly touch her, or makes his feelings of disgust clear, not a “mother in law” that expresses a desire to attend an awards show with her famous son, not even the death of her “father in law.” Her complete lack of compassion is incomprehensible. Even most of her paid friends posted messages of love and respect for his dad. What did she do? Made sure, once again, that it’s all about HER. She couldn’t have HER red carpet moments to be an utter embarrassment for HW, so she settled for pap walks and making his father dying about her and her awful party, finding a way to make herself the victim that sacrificed everything to stand by D’s side when he was chasing his dream and ignoring her, oh, and as an added bonus, they changed the fucking timeline AGAIN.

Was this harsh? Yes. Do I give a fuck? No. It’s inconceivable to me that you could take one of the worst things to happen to someone and make it about you.

chrisdarebashfulsmiles If a pandemic is not enough to make us think we are in a very absurd time, we have p/eople, in the most wrong time publishing articles ( work ethic for the love of God...it's possible to postpone something if the time is wrong) that instead of talking about works, makes the wedding like a life goal more important than everything else. I saw a scanned page, I refuse to give a visit to them.

I would like to say to team shit that this is the wrong way to work on the reputation of a client. Because, D is your client, not the wife.

Technically speaking, about her they are doing good, if we put aside the timeline. We are the problem, because we care only about him.

Source: chrisdarebashfulsmiles

Anonymous asked: But honestly it's been a year! A YEAR! How many more times are they gona mention he's married.. they even went back to the en/cagement thays was two years ago! This is the entertainment news .. this sorta news becomes old within a month.. I would this is ridiculous but it's been ridiculous for some time now

Cassie: Nonnie, technically, it’s been a little more than 14 months, and as it’s the only thing she has right now, that’s why we’re seeing this push. She wanted her pictures in that particular magazine and she finally made it happen. Congratulations PBB, you win the most pathetic existence award.

Anonymous asked: I find it appalling that some news articles acknowledging the passing of Bill Criss, a respected family man, devote so much space to promote the marriage and career of his daughter in law. A shameful grab for publicity at such a sad time

Cassie: Nonnie, it’s deplorable. Anything written right now should be about his new project dropping tomorrow or a condolence piece about his dad, who accomplished so much and no one has a single thing to say about the man that isn’t a glowing endorsement of how wonderful he was. Yet we get article after article, no doubt approved and encouraged by his shit team, about a lazy nobody with a work ethic that can only be measured in negative numbers. This is not the time.

#crisscolfer #darren criss #People magazine #cc #ccer

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kcwcommentary · 5 years

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VLD7x01 – “A Little Adventure”

7x01 – “A Little Adventure”

It was the news of this episode that caused me to arrange a weekend marathon, first catching up watching seasons three through six and then the new season seven. One weekend, 39 episodes. I was so excited to learn that the show was revealing not just that Shiro was gay but also that he had had a same-sex “significant other,” to use executive producer Lauren Montgomery’s words. I didn’t avoid spoilers about this episode, which had been shown at San Diego Comic Con, so I knew that the only content in this episode was the flashback scene of Adam breaking up with Shiro. But given how much LM and Joaquim Dos Santos were applauding themselves during the two weeks between SDCC and the season seven release, I thought for sure that there would be more interaction between them in the season than this one scene.

I did not expect Shiro and Adam to get back together, but because their breakup was told in a flashback, I thought there would be at least one scene of them talking to each other when Shiro got back to Earth to resolve the emotional content of the flashback scene. Scenes like this flashback serve a specific narrative function: to set up something more. This show failed to provide anything more. Between the Friday release of season seven and my starting my marathon on Saturday afternoon, the news that this one flashback scene was all there was, that Adam was killed off almost instantly the next time we see him after this episode, that once again a show had used the bury your gays trope, it was all being discussed online. I became furious.

JDS and LM had been going around for two weeks acting like they had accomplished something major, and then I find out that the queer inclusion was blink-and-you’ll-miss-it. For me, it felt more hurtful than if they had just not had any inclusion whatsoever. I’m used to most stories ignoring the existence of queer people. What JDS and LM did was manipulate us. They used queer identity as nothing more than a means to promote the season. This is why JDS and LM were accused of queerbaiting the audience, not because of any long period of the show suggesting Shiro was gay without ever confirming it, but because JDS and LM used their many interviews between SDCC and the release of season seven to significantly hype the reveal about Shiro. That promise of inclusion through Shiro’s relationship with Adam was the bait they used to get people to watch season seven, but this one, short flashback scene of the breakup in this episode is the entirety of that relationship.

The anger of the fandom was significant enough that JDS and LM posted apologies online a few days later. Those apologies did not help.

JDS said they had to kill Adam because “we knew seeing a familiar face bravely make the sacrifice along with the squadron he led (and countless others) would help get across the gravity of this invasion.” The only reason Adam was a “familiar face” is because of the two weeks they spent hyping him up, not because of the show itself. Before his death scene, he’s only ever in the flashback scene in this episode. If a viewer was relying exclusively on the show itself, it is easy for that viewer to watch Adam’s death and to have completely forgotten who he was.

JDS said, “We were aware of the ‘bury your gays’ trope but hoped against hope that our struggle to confirm Shiro’s orientation would take center stage here.” They knew that they were using the bury your gays trope, they just hoped people wouldn’t notice.

JDS said, “We had not intended for Adam to be interpreted as a recurring character or someone that would come back into Shiro’s life.” You don’t do a flashback scene like the one in this episode if you don’t plan on resolving it by later having the two characters meet again. Also, JDS has since contradicted this statement in interviews saying that they had wanted to have Adam return with Veronica, but that they didn’t have time to change it back to that supposed original intention because they had changed it to have Adam killed before they were told they could reveal Shiro as gay. Because of instances of public contradiction like this, I don’t trust anything really that JDS and LM say to be the total truth.

JDS said, “We knew people would be affected by the loss of Adam we just could not have predicted how profound that loss would be.” I do not know how he and the rest of his crew could have been this ignorant and oblivious. They are not the first show to employ the bury your gays trope. They weren’t even the first show to do so in the year season seven was released. Audience anger at the use of that trope is not new, so I can only conclude that JDS and his crew just didn’t care to know the history of queer characters in stories to realize why bury your gays is so offensive. Also, this statement and the “familiar face” statement reveal that JDS and LM’s decision to kill Adam was yet another instance of their purposefully trying to manipulate the audience. All writing is a choice. They could have chosen to kill another character instead, but they specifically chose Adam. They wanted people to experience some form of shock in watching Adam be killed, and they thought the best way to produce that shock was to kill a character whose sole characteristic is that he’s gay.

On to the episode. This was a pivotal episode for me, so I have a lot to say.

The episode is credited as written by May Chan and Mitch Iverson. It’s my understanding that May Chan is given a writing credit here, despite not having any credits since 3x02 “Red Paladin,” because she’s the one who wrote this episode’s flashback scenes. I have seen some reference in the fandom to how the content of these flashbacks were originally going to have been included early in season two when Shiro and Keith were trying to survive on that planet in 2x01 “Across the Universe.” So, if JDS and LM are telling the truth when they say that Shiro being gay has been a part of his character from really early on, and these flashbacks were originally written for season two, and JDS and LM wanted to kill Shiro at the end of season two, then they wanted to use the bury your gays trope in killing Shiro too. They wanted to kill the gay character to promote the emotional development of a straight character (Keith). Their approach to including queer characters in the show has always been problematic, at best.

The episode opens at a school – I think Keith is supposed to be something like 12 or 13 years old here. Shiro is there to give a school talk and promote the Galaxy Garrison. The teacher introduces Shiro, saying, “I’m sure you all recognize him. He’s the youngest pilot to ever lead a mission into space.” So, Shiro is a celebrity due to his piloting achievements. This helps give some scope to why Lance has described Shiro as being a role model for him. Every kid in the classroom seems excited, except for Keith, who is just staring out the window. It makes me feel sad seeing Keith so disengaged like this. Shiro clearly notices that Keith is mentally distant. I love when characters (and people in real life) demonstrate significant interpersonal insight like this.

Shiro has brought with him a mobile flight simulator for these students to be tested on. James, who we first saw sitting several seats from Keith outside an office at the Galaxy Garrison during a flashback in 6x05 “The Black Paladins” (a scene that’s repeated in this episode) and will see again as a pilot later this season, is up front, the most eager to use the flight simulator. The visuals of the simulator are ridiculous. It seems like it’s relying on the mistaken belief that the asteroid belt is more dense than it is. The show can’t hide behind a fictional location for the content of this simulation because this scene takes place in a time at which no one on Earth had been outside of our solar system, so this simulation has to be of our asteroid belt. A pilot navigating through our asteroid belt would not have to be dodging asteroids like this because the asteroid belt is nowhere near this dense. Also, anyone having a reaction speed as fast as depicted here, let alone kids, is not realistic. But whatever.

There’s a montage of various kids eventually crashing into asteroids and failing the simulation, including James. Keith sits alone, away from everyone, just looking at the ground. The emotion of Keith’s loneliness is tangible for me. Shiro has let Keith sit off to himself until everyone else has had their turn with the simulator, and then he finally turns to Keith. Keith’s reaction almost makes me think he was surprised that Shiro even noticed him. Not surprising, Keith is really good. “That emo kid’s doing it,” one miscellaneous student says. It’s frustrating that the show, with that line of dialog and with so many others prior to this, is so reductive of Keith’s character to derogatorily label him as “emo,” as if Keith’s emotions aren’t valid. He never knew his mother (until season six) and his father died when he was young, resulting in his being put in an orphanage. His emotionality seems totally justifiable to me.

James is antagonistic toward Keith, saying the simulator must be broken for Keith to have made it past level 5. James’s behavior here is very reminiscent of Lance’s and his perceived rivalry with Keith, so much so that I don’t know why, if they wanted a character to react to Keith like this here, they didn’t just have this be Lance instead of James. With characterization so sparse in this show, why take one of the few characteristics of Lance and give it to another character?

The teacher gives Shiro a list of students she thinks are best suited for the Garrison, and Shiro wants Keith on the list. The teacher then engages in seriously unethical behavior. Clearly able to be heard by both Keith and all the other students, she is dismissive of Keith to Shiro, saying, “He’s a bit of a discipline case. I don’t think he’d necessarily fit in with the rigid Garrison culture.” Even if a student is a frequent discipline problem, no teacher should be having this kind of administration-level discussion in front of the whole class. No wonder Keith is angry, adults like this teacher publicly degrade him given the chance. She then tries to hype up James Griffin, and the show, in giving James a last name, does something it never does for most of its main characters. The show expects us to like James and all the other pilots later in the season, but this introduction to James does not make me like him one bit. The teacher explicitly dismisses Keith and promotes James in a juxtaposition. The show writing James’s introduction this way instantly positions James as an antagonist to Keith.

As soon as the teacher speaks dismissively of Keith and praises James nearly in the same breath, Keith purposefully fails the simulator. He steals Shiro’s transport and drives off. Cut to later, Shiro is getting Keith out of a Juvenile Detention Center. Keith expresses surprise that Shiro would not only not be mad but also help him after that. Keith has clearly had little support in his life. Shiro wants Keith as part of the Garrison and gives him an address to report to. It is a little odd that Shiro drives off, leaving Keith standing in the Juvenile Detention Center’s parking lot, instead of driving Keith home though.

I’m going to say this now and I will say it again in this commentary: I love the music of this episode.

Meanwhile in the main story (I take it that all the non-flashback scenes are the writing of Mitch Iverson), the Paladins are still on that planet like they were at the end of season six. Shiro, now in the clone’s body, is being kept in the healing pod. Allura says, “Only time will tell if this body will accept Shiro’s consciousness.” This statement is a reminder that this body belonged to someone else and the Paladins took it from him to give to Shiro. If the clone is supposed to somehow be an empty body, then there should be no chance of the body rejecting Shiro’s spirit. But if there’s supposed to be a conflict between the clone and Shiro, then the show needed to actually show that. Also, how could Allura have been so confident in taking Shiro’s spirit from the Black Lion and putting it in the clone’s body at the end of last episode and then now have worries about if the process is viable? Shouldn’t she have discussed that with everyone prior to doing it last episode? This whole moment feels really contrived just so the episode can threaten Shiro’s wellbeing.

Pidge says that she’s tried contacting the Voltron Coalition to ask for help, but that she can’t get through to anyone. Hunk says the Lions need their energy systems recharged. Allura says, “If we had the Castle of Lions, we could recharge them.” Uh, since when did they ever use the Castle to charge the energy systems of the Lions? Why would they even need to? In 3x07 “The Legend Begins,” Alfor says that he made the Lions “from the quintessence-infused ore of the comet, which provides them with an endless supply of power.” In other words, the show has established that the power systems of the Lions are self-sustaining. They never would need to be hooked up to the Castle of Lions to recharge. The show now acts like the Lions need an external source of power, whereas the show has previously established that their power is inherent. So, this energy depletion is a contrived situation that is inconsistent with what the show has already established about how the Lions function.

Coran suggests a potential course of action, that they could use some fictional substance to do something. None of it is important. Keith tells everyone to go get what they need, that he’ll stay with Shiro. Krolia steps up beside Keith, and Allura says she’ll stay too.

And then Romelle speaks. I actually think Romelle’s dialog here is important. She says, “Wait. You just fought Lotor, defeated him, stopped an explosion that could have destroyed reality, took your friend’s consciousness from the Black Lion of Voltron and put it inside his clone, and now we’re simply moving on?” Hunk replies, “Trust me, I’m always saying the exact same thing, but these guys like to move on.” This totally lampshades the show’s plot. By employing lampshading this blatant, the writers are demonstrating that they know the show’s story is badly written, and they are effectively asking the audience to ignore it. This is the second instance of lampshading used recently, the other being in Ezor’s dialog in 6x06 “All Good Things.” If an audience has a net-positive reaction to a story, lampshading confusing or senseless parts of a plot can even read as humorous. But this show has burned the audience at this point, so this moment of lampshading with Romelle feels more offensive. This is the writers saying that they don’t want to have to do the necessary work of following up on the trauma inherent in the situation Shiro and the clone have gone through. The show wants us to “move on.” I even kind of wonder if the dialog being specifically phrased “but these guys like to move on” is even some subtle reference, Hunk standing in for the episode’s writer and the “these guys” being a reference to the executive producers. I have nothing to substantiate that idea, but I do kind of wonder what the creative relationship between the writers, at least the non-Tim Hedrick and non-Joshua Hamilton writers, and the EPs were like. For a long time now, I’ve suspected that the work environment for this show had a disruptive level of toxicity to it, and I’d be curious to know for sure what it was truly like.

We flashback again (so, supposedly back to May Chan’s writing). Keith is looking at a ship that Shiro identifies as “the Calypso, the first ship to carry astronauts to the moons of Jupiter.” Keith demonstrates knowledge of space exploration history by following up with a statement that “it took them three years to get there, longest voyage of its kind.” Joaquim Dos Santos and Lauren Montgomery have called Shiro “boring,” but I don’t know how anyone could watch Shiro in this scene and think he was a boring character. He says, “Reading about that mission is what made me want to be a pilot. Those astronauts braved the unknown. People can accomplish incredible things if they’re willing to put in the time and effort.” This shows that Shiro is a curious, dedicated person. He is someone who aspires. Some stories just use space as a setting, and they can be fun stories too, but I love the portrayal of the sense of wonder that space causes those who seek to explore it to feel. What Shiro says here is at the heart of his character’s motivation. His character is also revealed, not just through his personal aspiration, but also through his ability to inspire others to want to achieve too. He speaks very supportively to Keith here.

Back to the now of Coran, Lance, Hunk, Pidge, and Romelle looking for whatever they’re looking for. Honestly, given how emotional the Shiro-Keith flashback scenes are, I don’t care for this Coran and crew plot whatsoever. It’s not exactly a bad story, but juxtaposed to such significant, quality, character-driven storytelling like the flashback scenes, the Coran and crew plot is meaningless and just takes up time. There is some humor in it. Coran licking yelmore spray off of flowers and his yelmore animal call make me laugh. I also laugh at a small moment between Pidge and Romelle. Romelle asks, “Are all ancient Alteans like this?” and Pidge responds, “Well, we only know two.” Things go awry and they all get sprayed by some other animal, and the spray instantly shrinks them. Thus, this plot turns weird and feels tonally unlike anything this show has done before.

Back to the flashback scenes. A group of Galaxy Garrison cadets are working collectively in simulators. The process is so easy for Keith that he yawns. Also involved in this group simulation are Hunk, Lance, and James. Of course, the show has Hunk’s contribution to the scene be only his queasy stomach. Keith feels unchallenged by the current simulation and “test[s his] controls.” First Lance, then James, then the no-name others glare at Keith. In the simulation, Keith jets away from the rest. Afterward, Colonel Iverson yells at everyone, saying that because of Keith the whole group will have to spend several weekends running drills in the simulator.

James again demonstrates that his place in the story is that of being an antagonist, further making his switch-flip turn into a protagonist later in the season annoying. He says to Keith, “We all know the only reason you’re here is because of Shiro.” Keith retorts, “I can out-fly anyone in this building.” James reaches a peak of antagonism then by mockingly saying, “Oh yeah, is that what mommy and daddy told you before—” and he doesn’t get to finish before Keith punches him, knocks him to the ground, jumps on him, and starts to beat him up. To go on a tangent briefly, this is something that infuriates me about our society, and I think this episode accurately depicts this reality: In schools, kids are allowed to bully other kids the way James does to Keith here. Depending on the situation, teachers are either too overworked to notice or they just don’t care and let it happen. The instant that a kid who is bullied fights back, the kid who’s bullied gets in trouble. The conclusion is that kids who are bullied are expected to endure the onslaught of the bullying while our institutional authorities allow the bullying to happen.

We cut to the scene that was in the flashback in 6x05 “The Black Paladins.” Keith and James are sitting outside the, presumably, principal’s office. Shiro is inside speaking on Keith’s behalf. Keith clearly has a very low sense of self-worth, telling Shiro, “You should just send me back to the home already.” These flashbacks do so much character work, revealing to us how much Keith needs to feel wanted by others, and it breaks my heart. I love how supportive Shiro is.

Back to Coran and crew, and I’m still not interested.

Back to the flashbacks. I love the music of this scene so much. Shiro and Keith are flying around on hovercrafts, showing some of how Keith developed his hovercraft piloting skills that he used in rescuing Shiro in 1x01 “The New Alliance,” including jumping laterally across a chasm from one ledge to another. Shiro is clearly having fun racing with Keith here. Like Keith in “The New Alliance,” Shiro dives forward off a cliff (I think it’s supposed to be the exact same cliff). Keith, here, however is too hesitant, so he stops at the cliff’s edge. Keith eventually catches up to Shiro, who’s parked. They watch the sunset together.

I love the music of the sunset so much, more than I can ever describe. I have very strong emotional reactions to sunsets. They have a way of instantly evoking a sensation of nostalgia, wistfulness, and peace. And this music perfectly manifests those emotions. I totally love this moment. (And it annoys me that this music is again used for a sunset scene between Keith and Lance in season eight. Using it there for the two of them feels like a violation of the beauty of this scene and the emotional bond between Shiro and Keith.)

The two of them discuss Shiro’s dive off the cliff. He explains how he did it, and Keith wonders if he is “ready to try that.” Shiro playfully turns the question back on Keith, saying, “What do you think?” and Keith, thoughtfully, answers, “Maybe I should be patient and keep focusing on the basics first.” Shiro asks, and Keith confirms, that Keith grew up in this rocky desert. Keith lived here with his dad, who was a fireman. Keith thinks of his dad as a hero because his father ran back into a burning building, supposedly being the event that killed him.

And then the show hints at Shiro being sick with his using “electro-stimulators to keep [his] muscles loose.” Keith picks up on something benig wrong with Shiro, but Shiro casually dismisses it and says, “It’s just what happens when you get to be an old-timer.”

Back to Coran and crew, and I’m still not interested.

Back to the flashback, where Admiral Sanda is telling Sam Holt that Shiro, despite having cleared all his physicals, “is sick and shouldn’t be sent on another mission, especially as far away as Kerberos.” Sam Holt stands up for Shiro, saying he won’t go on the mission if Shiro doesn’t. Keith is in the hallway and can overhear the argument through the open door.

Then we get the infamous scene between Shiro and Adam. Despite how supposedly close the two of them are, you couldn’t tell it from this scene. The staging does not feel like they’re a couple, keeping them instead across the room from one another. They barely look at one another. The scene ends up not feeling like Shiro and his significant other, and instead feels more like the end of a relationship that was really over a long time before this. This scene gives no sense of these two characters being in love. Shiro is upset because Colonel Iverson called in Admiral Sanda to try to keep Shiro off the Kerberos mission. That Iverson was involved makes Shiro joking with Sam Holt in in a way that suggests friendship between Shiro and Iverson in 5x05 “Bloodlines” even more baffling.

Adam sides with Iverson, citing the mission as a risk to Shiro’s health. Shiro reaffirms how exploration of space is important to him. Adam wants Shiro to view their relationship as more important that Shiro’s desire to explore space. Adam is worried that the mission could result in Shiro’s death. As I said in my commentary for 1x07 “Tears of the Balmera,” the addition of Adam’s worry about Shiro’s health regarding the Kerberos mission in this episode adds a new dimension of emotional pain the revelation in “Tears of the Balmera” that the Galaxy Garrison publicly blamed the destruction of the Kerberos mission on Shiro, saying that it was pilot error. I imagine Adam would have been heartbroken hearing that news, thinking he was right that Shiro’s illness caused him to lose his life. That the show kills Adam, him never learning that Shiro did not die, that Shiro was not at fault for the Kerberos mission, well, it pisses me off. It contributes to how it feels like the EPs and writers of this show wanted to hurt Shiro, and it also makes it seem like they wanted to hurt queer characters.

Adam reduces Shiro’s desire to go on this mission down to the idea that Shiro’s trying to prove something, but we know it’s not about proving anything. It’s about Shiro wanting this experience. He wants to explore space. He likes the way it feels to do this work. He doesn’t pursue this work because he’s competing with anyone, even if he has broken flight records. It is hurtful that Adam doesn’t seem to understand that. It’s realistic though that two people in a relationship would break up because they have different things they want to get out of life.

Adam says, “But I won’t go through this again.” What does that mean? Does he just mean Shiro being away on a mission? Does that mean Adam hasn’t actually been supportive of Shiro’s work even though he says he has? Whatever this is supposed to be referencing, it’s important context, suggesting this is a long-term argument between the two of them. We never get any details as to what has happened before that would result in Adam saying “again” here. I think this line in particular is why this scene feels like this is the end of a slow-process breakup.

I’m okay with Adam feeling like they’re on diverging paths, wanting different things in life, and breaking up over it. I’m not okay with him seemingly not understanding why working space missions are important to Shiro. Adam can claim he’s supportive of Shiro, but with this breakup, it does not feel like he is or really ever has been.

And by having Adam break up with Shiro, it feels like it’s just another instance of the show writing everything to hurt Shiro. And since this is the episode and the scene that reveals Shiro is gay, with Shiro never seeing Adam again, never resolving the tension this scene ends on, it feels like the show is only willing to include gay characters if the story makes them and keeps them unhappy and rejected.

Lauren Montgomery, now infamously, posted a sketch dated November 8, 2016. Hunk and Keith holding a placard with the word Race on it, Allura and Pidge with one with the word Gender on it, and Shiro and Lance with one with the word LGBT on it. At the bottom is a caption: “You are deserving of respect!!!” The show in revealing Shiro is gay, inflicting emotional pain on him in the process, through having the reveal come from Adam breaking up with him, and the show having the rest of the season and the next one having Shiro alone, isolated from the Paladins, no one ever speaking to him as a friend, does not put Montgomery’s claim that LGBT people are deserving of respect into practice. When viewers complained about how the show never lets Shiro have anything that makes him happy, JDS and LM seem to have interpreted that solely through a reductive perspective that viewers were saying Shiro needed to end the story in a relationship, thus the emergency epilogue being added to the end of the last episode having Shiro marrying Curtis. Of course, we fans of Shiro are not against the idea of Shiro ending the show in a relationship, but our criticism is bigger than Shiro having a same-sex relationship. That JDS and LM responded to criticism how season seven handles Shiro being gay and Adam’s death by thinking the solution was to just fling an empty same-sex marriage at us shows that they did not understand why people were so furious over seasons seven. In the end, they could not see Shiro as anything but gay. Respect would have been writing Shiro to be a whole person, with being gay as just a fundamental and important part.

Shiro is an explorer, a pilot, a teacher, a leader, a friend, a fighter, a good man, and a gay man. But with the revelation that he’s a gay man in this episode, the show now begins its process of sidelining Shiro. Being Black Paladin is taken from him. He fought for the Black Lion in seasons one and two. Like here in these flashbacks, we see that Shiro fought to be allowed to pilot space exploration missions. With the EPs taking being the Black Paladin from Shiro, it makes them feel like Colonel Iverson and Admiral Sanda wanting to take being a pilot away from Shiro. They write him increasingly separated and isolated from the other Paladins, his supposed friends. Even with the depiction in seasons one through six and especially in this episode of how close Shiro and Keith are and how important their relationship is for both of them, the next two seasons take that away from Shiro too, leaving the two of them to only ever speak in the most perfunctory ways in season eight. It feels like with the revelation that Shiro is gay, the show decided that he couldn’t be allowed to have a relationship, including friendship, with anyone.

Joaquim Dos Santos and Lauren Montgomery wanted to kill Shiro from the beginning of the show. They did kill him at the end of season two. Imagine May Chan’s flashback scenes from this episode but instead set during Shiro and Keith’s time crashed on that planet in 2x01 “Across the Universe.” Imagine the revelation of Shiro’s illness as set-up for Shiro pushing Keith to become the team leader. In that context, Shiro encouraged Keith to see himself as leader because Shiro thought his illness would eventually kill him. It’s insulting that the EPs and writers thought this was a respectful way to write Shiro’s character.

And what about this illness? The show never confirms that Shiro no longer has to worry about the illness. JDS said the disease is no longer a problem in an extratextual interview, but no one respected Shiro’s character enough to resolve this illness plot in the actual show. This episode introduces the illness and then it is forgotten hereafter. That’s how much respect the EPs and writers have, that they just threw a life-debilitating, potentially life-ending illness on Shiro and didn’t bother any textual revelation that he’s now free of it. It makes the inclusion of the illness in the story absolutely cheap, and it pisses me off.

Back to Coran and crew, and I’m still not interested.

Back to the flashback scenes. Shiro is working on the systems of a hovercraft. Keith walks up, upset, asking him “When were you going to tell me?” He tells Shiro he overheard the argument with Sanda. Shiro explains, “I have a disease, and it’s getting worse. I’ll only be able to maintain my peak condition for a couple more years, after that—The Garrison doesn’t want me up there, neither does Adam.” While whatever disease that Shiro has is not HIV, I cannot escape the distasteful way that the show reveals a character to be gay and to have a disease in the same episode. It feels like the reductionism that a lot of people engage in when they equate being gay with being sick. Our society has gotten better at not doing so, but I’m roughly the same age as Joaquim Dos Santos and Lauren Montgomery, so I’m quite acquainted with when our society did mostly equate being gay with having a disease. I can’t help but to be uncomfortable with the implications of this episode simultaneously revealing Shiro to be gay and to have this disease.

Keith asks Shiro, “So, what are you going to do?” And Shiro, looking down, gets an expression of determination and says, “I’m going on the mission.”

Back to Coran and crew, and I’m still not interested. They have made their way onto a yelmore and ride it to a spot. It digs, some bubbles float out of the dirt, it hollers, and other yelmores come running. The yelmores link ears and dig up more of the bubbles. The shrunk Paladins jump off the yelmore and somehow all luckily fall into the bubbles. Doing so causes them to return to their normal size. It makes little-to-no sense. It’s all just a giant whatever.

Back with Shiro in the healing pod. Allura says, “I’m afraid the clone body has rejected Shiro’s consciousness.” I can still feel JDS and LM’s desire to kill Shiro in this moment.

Keith slams the pod with his fist in frustration. Keith’s voice acting is good. “Shiro, please. Fight. You can’t do this to me again.” The ache in Keith’s voice hurts. The pod’s display then indicates Shiro’s vitals improving. Keith opens the pod, saying Shiro’s name.

Shiro, with more really good voice acting, looks at Keith and says, “I was dreaming. Keith, you saved me.” Keith hugs Shiro and replies, “We saved each other.” It is so emotional. It still makes me cry watching it.

I love the music during this moment. It affects me in similar ways to the music during the sunset scene. This music evokes something that feels pure to me. It contributes to why the relationship between Shiro and Keith is the most important and interesting thing to me in this entire series.

Coran and crew return. Lance relates their absurd experience, and Shiro just laughs and says, “It’s good to be back.”

I was so excited to learn that the show was revealing Shiro to be gay. He was my favorite character. He was the lead character, at least in seasons one and two. He was strong, brave, supportive, calm, a leader. It meant something to think that this show was going to make a statement by having such a character be revealed as gay. But then, the how of they did it was a huge disappointment. Realizing how JDS and LM were totally manipulative of the audience during the two weeks between SDCC and the season seven release made me feel totally deceived and used. I did not feel respected. Their attempts at justification in their apology were offensive.

I’m not a big mecha fan (maybe I just haven’t seen the right mecha stories yet), but I am a big science fiction fan, especially space science fiction. I’ve loved space since I was a really little kid. I also love animation because I think it allows for a way of expression and storytelling that’s different from film. Having a space-based science fiction animated story revealing my favorite character to be a gay man was important to me. It was hurtful to then see, through how the show treated Shiro, how little respect the EPs and writers actually had for LGBT people. How little they understood the importance and implications of how they handled the whole situation.

#voltron legendary defender #voltron #vld #voltron criticism #vld criticism #voltron critical #vld critical #vld season 7 #vld 7x01 #commentary

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dragonofyang · 5 years

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Let’s Voltron! Ep 175 Transcript

The full transcript of the podcast Let’s Voltron! episode 175 with Donya Abramo as a guest interviewing JDS and LM below the cut. Feel free to use this for all your citation and referential needs.

@leakinghate @crystal-rebellion @felixazrael @voltronisruiningmylife

Vrepit Sa!

[Intro music]

MM: Welcome Voltron fans! This is Marc Morrell, your host for Let’s Voltron! the official Voltron podcast. We’re excited because we have a great interview today. We haven’t talked to these people since the season came out, since season 8, so, we’re excited. I have to bring on my cohost Greg Tyler, welcome Greg.

GT: Hello, Marc Morrell. Hello listeners and fellow Voltron fans across the universe. This is a really, really fun podcast because we have some really awesome guests.

MM: And I also have another guest that I wanna bring on. So, all the way from the other side of the pond, in the UK, welcome Donya Abramo. Donya, welcome.

DA: Hi! It’s really nice to be back again.

GT: Awesome, it’s great to have you back with us again. How are things going with Hypable?

DA: Really good! Yeah, picking up a couple new shows. So since Voltron went off the air, I’ve picked up a few more animated shows, so I’m now covering She-Ra, The Dragon Prince, and I’m also doing my usual everything Marvel. Literally everything Marvel, which, considering there are three movies now in quick succession that’s keeping me busy.

GT: No doubt.

MM: Yeah, Marvel has a pretty heavy spring coming up, don’t they?

DA: Oh, just a little bit, yeah.

[laughter]

MM: Well, it’s exciting to have you on, and I’m-I’m really thankful that you were able to do this even though it’s really strange time of the morning for you right now.

DA: Yeah, it’s actually really interesting, ‘cuz usually this would be 2 a.m. for me, but because you guys have saved daylight already, it’s actually 1 a.m.

MM: That’s awesome that we timed that just perfectly.

DA: Yeah.

GT: That’s right. Who do we have to thank for that? Ben Franklin? I think he knew you were going to be on this podcast hundreds of years later.

MM: Alright, so why don’t we bring on our very special guests, what do you say?

GT: Let’s do it.

MM: Alright. Coming all the way from California--from the other direction--we have the showrunners of Voltron: Legendary Defender Joaquim Dos Santos and Lauren Montgomery. Welcome guys.

LM: Thanks.

JDS: Hey guys, thanks for having us.

MM: [laughter] So great to have you guys on again.

GT: Yes, welcome back.

LM: Yeah, well, we’re glad to be back now that Voltron’s all wrapped and we can kinda talk about it on the whole. No more of this, uh, kinda shifty “we can’t tell ya” stuff.

JDS: [faintly] Right.

MM: That’s right.

GT: Yeah, you were last on when we recorded our fifth anniversary podcast, which was released on the season 8 drop day, so you know, obviously we couldn’t do spoilers during that recording, so now we can, uh, spoil in reverse.

[laughter]

LM: There you go.

MM: And we have another person on with us, so Donya you’re able to ask any questions any times you want. Is that okay?

DA: Yep. [laughter] That would be fine.

GT: Would you like that opportunity, Donya? [laughter]

DA: I don’t know, might be nice.

[laughter]

LM: I think Donya wants to take a nap.

[laughter]

GT: Yeah, so we started recording at 9 p.m. Eastern, it’s 6 p.m. Eastern in LA, and 1 a.m. in the UK, right?

DA: Yep.

GT: Alright, so we got a three-year time-jump in there, just like on Voltron. [others laugh] Er, not quite three years, just a little shy.

JDS: Yeah.

MM: These are decaphoebs.

GT: There you go.

JDS: That’s right.

GT: So, uh, real quick before we dive into the meat and potatoes of this, all those Altean time units - did you guys just know them off the top of your heads, or did you have to look those up all the time?

JDS: Oh--

LM: Oh, yeah, I had no idea at any point. I think those were all made up by the writers. All I ever knew was “ticks” and then everything after that, I was like, “Um…” I would just kinda have to go to the writers and be like, “Which one is a week? Which one is a month?” I eventually got “decaphoeb” which is a year, right?

GT: Yep.

LM: And then we assumed “phoeb” was kind of, like, generally a month.

GT: Right.

JDS: Right, “phoeb” was-was one-one quadrant of the year.

LM: Yeah, and they had a whole thing where it was like “movement”, which, I don’t even know if that was just a day or week--

MM: It’s like a week.

LM: Okay--

JDS: Wow, okay, see you guys definitely know better than we do because we were-

LM: Yeah.

JDS: “Movement” means something totally different to me, it’s like-like a bowel movement.

LM: Bathroom talk, right there.

[laughter]

LM: But yeah, I honestly, I don’t know. What was a day? Do you guys know?

MM: “Day” was a “quintant”.

LM: Alright, yeah! That’s right.

JDS: That’s right, a quintant.

LM: All these Coran lines are popping back into my head.

JDS: Yeah.

GT: Yeah, I remember Lance saying he wasn’t born yesterquintant. [laughter]

JDS: That’s right.

LM: Awesome.

GT: Alright, so Voltron is over, the two of you have moved on to, uh, other projects. Is there anything you can say about what you’re working on right now?

JDS: Uh, not really.

LM: No.

JDS: Other than it’s very cool and fun and we’re-we’re--

LM: Yeah.

JDS: --you know, very excited.

LM: It’s just the lay of the land. It’s kinda how animation goes. You make a thing, then you move on to another thing, and you make a thing.

JDS: Yeah.

LM: But, uh, but yeah.

GT: We’re excited for the next things, whatever they are. [laughter]

LM: Awesome.

MM: So, in preparation for talking to you guys tonight, um, I had gone back and listened to a lot of our previous conversations and everything just to make sure that, uh, anything that we had gone over before, uh, if there was something that we wanted to recapture or re-talk about or something like that we could bring it up tonight. One thing that I remember from going over all of this, we had done an interview with Andrea Romano.

JDS: Mm.

LM: Mm-hm.

MM: And she told us a story about when you guys pitched her the idea of you guys joining for this show. So do you guys remember that-that time? And it was basically where she said, “Okay, pitch to me, you know, what it is that Voltron’s all about and what it is that you wanna do with it.”

LM: Oh, gosh.

JDS: Boy, I… Yeah.

LM: So long ago! You’re asking my memory to do things it does not usually do.

JDS: Yeah, I mean-I mean I think-I think it’s safe to assume that we were probably begging and groveling on some level just to get her on board because we knew how awesome Andrea is, so there was probably a bit of that.

LM: There may have been a little bit of, you know, delirium from some hard working late nights but, uh, but yeah I-I remember the day she came in, I remember we sat in a room and that’s literally all I remember.

MM: So you don’t remember what you told her about what Voltron really is?

LM: Did it involve robot lions?

JDS: Did it involve teamwork? And did it involve, you know, friendship? I’ll bet, Marc, I’ll bet you know.

[laughter]

GT: Well I don’t remember either, so.

MM: I do know that it was a bunch of young people that under, you know, unforeseen circumstances come together and find these robot lions that form Voltron and it’s this giant robot that is formed by these five robot mechs. And along the way they, you know, find out that they’re basically the defenders of the universe. And they have, you know, they have to work it out as a team, and they have to work together, and they have a lot of adventures where they have to go up against the bad guys.

LM: That sounds about right.

GT: That’s a great pitch, Marc, I think we should make a show based on that, what do you think?

[laughter]

MM: Yeah. Well, the thing about it is-is Andrea remembers saying to you guys, “How did this ever work? How did it ever become popular?”

LM: Yeah, I-I think that’s something that probably people would say about 90% of the stuff I watched as a kid. I mean, I grew up on some--like Thundercats--like, and they’re just human people and they look kinda cattish, and then one guy was in-in a cryotube that cracked and then he came out a man. Like, I don’t know, how did that work? We watched that stuff anyway.

GT: And don’t forget “Snyarf! Snyarf!”

LM: Yeah! So, I mean, you know, Care Bears, they’re just little colorful bears with pictures on their tummies and they shoot rainbows out of their tummies. Like, I’m down. I don’t know if everyone’s down, but I’m down. So yeah, I think it was just something that captured our imaginations as kids and stuck with us, and so when it came time to, you know, to-to have it redone through DreamWorks, we wanted to kind of channel our love for the property into something that would maybe be a little updated to what our tastes were more like today versus what our tastes were as children, if that makes sense.

MM: Okay. So at that time did you know it was a 78-episode contract?

JDS: Yes.

LM: Yes we did. That was probably one of our biggest lies. You know, sadly. We try not to lie too much, but I’ll tell you, I’m gonna blow-blow the whole industry up right now: if an animated show tells you they don’t know if they have a second season, they probably know they have a second season.

JDS: That’s right.

LM: There’s a really good chance they already made it, and you know, so, where we always have to tell that, like, “Well, we hope people watch it and if they like it, well, maybe. We’ll see!” But it’s such-it’s such a lie.

JDS: The way it works, you know, is we have to make these things so far in advance for them to even make air, uh, that-that second season is either picked up or-or in production or midway through production or… yeah.

LM: Yeah, and I think there’s always just like, uh, that desire to, you know, be able to break that news. I think for-for whoever handles that kind of PR/internet traffic side of things, like, we want to be able to announce the next season and they’re like, “Okay, that’s fine, whatever.” W-we’re just making the show.

GT: That raises an interesting question. Do you have to be--and I know this is gonna sound silly--but do you have to be trained when you join a new project? Or are you so accustomed to the way this stuff gets marketed that it’s second nature to you now?

LM: A little bit of both.

JDS: Yeah.

LM: I think, like, upfront, so, um, I-I’ve always been, I guess, a little more truthful than I should have sometimes in my earlier projects. I made a, uh, movie through Warner Brothers. It was called Batman/Superman: Apocalypse, but it was about Supergirl. And they didn’t call it Supergirl, they called it Superman/Batman: Apocalypse.

GT: Right.

LM: And so when people would ask, I would be like, “Yeah, they had to put a big boy name on it ‘cuz they didn’t think a girl movie would sell.” And then I would get my PR guy and say like, “Hey, hey Lauren, you’re not supposed to say that.” And so, uh, I had to kinda learn, you know, sometimes you need to be a little more positive? [laughter] But, you know, hey man, sometimes people need to hear the truth.

JDS: But I’d say also specifically to Voltron, like it was pretty un-unprecedented in terms of like, an animated series of its kind getting picked up for that many episodes right off the bat, so… I mean we always joked that it was, like, the worst-kept secret ‘cuz I think Playmates at some point had, like, toy fair, like, put up a thing saying “78 episodes guaranteed!” and I think Tyler maybe said it because he hadn’t been told not to say it on some radio pod--some radio show. So it was like the worst-kept secret but it was also pretty interesting ‘cuz we were like, like one of the only shows that I know of that got picked up for that many episodes--

GT: That is amazing.

LM: Yeah.

JDS: --right off the bat.

MM: So, did they want you to write a story that only had a 78-episode arc, or did they tell you “there’s always an opportunity if this gets really big that we could have more”?

LM: I think--I don’t know--like at the time we were told 78 episodes, and that was it. And I think, like, maybe there--er, in our minds--like, if the thing was just, like, gangbusters, then there was a possibility for more, but I think what they actually learned over the process of making a 78-episode thing is that 78 episodes is a whole lot of a thing.

MM: Right.

GT: Oh yeah.

LM: And then, the-they’d actually made close to that of some other shows and realized that they really don’t need that many episodes. No, not every show has a serialized story and can maybe go that far, but for us, yeah. I think-I think ultimately when they started to kinda realize those numbers, it was like, “Alright, 78 episodes, that’s good enough.” And we were always planning for the 78 anyway, so uh, like honestly if they’d given us more we would’ve been like, “Uh… What’re we gonna do now?”

JDS: It’s funny, you know, we-we sort of, like, had this-this, you know, loose structure of sort of, kind of, where this story could go, but at some point you know, the show and the characters, they just kinda take on lives of their own to some extent and you-you zig where you thought you were gonna zag, a-and you know, the thing kinda goes where it needs to, so it’s like you… I remember we were, sort of, excited about the fact that like, hey we can like--and we did to some extent set some things up that could pay off later, but there was other stuff that we just-it was just kind of going and we were just on this-this production train, you know? We were like, “Oh wow, this-this thing is happening.”

MM: So, had Tim Hedrick, at the beginning, had he written out anything like a story bible that would kinda say “this is what’s gonna happen at the beginning”, “this is, like, a hazy middle area”, and then “maybe this is the end”?

JDS: No, our bible was about as loose as you’ll find. It was basically just to kinda pitch the show in its concept. So there was no… we would talk in meetings about maybe where we thought the characters’ arc would go.

LM: Yeah, I mean we had character arcs that we ended up, you know, having to completely adjust through--during the creation of the show because of, you know, whatever note here or there. So, like, we would have, like, some characters we thought we knew where they were going to end up that didn’t happen, and some characters we didn’t really know at all and then that just kind of solidified as it went through.

JDS: Right.

LM: And then, uh, a-and I’ll say, we really didn’t know--I’d say the biggest things we knew was we wanted Zarkon, kind of, for the first arc, and Lotor for the second arc, we didn’t really know, like, what we wanted for the third arc yet.

JDS: Right. That sort of started to present itself later.

LM: Like, and we had some, like, weird ideas that, like, never felt really personal, and then we kinda realized Honvera/Haggar was kinda the most--you know, the character who’d been with us the whole time. And uh, it was--and I was happy ‘cuz, you know, I like it when female characters can be involved in good ways and bad ways.

JDS: Yeah.

MM: Did you ever feel like you needed to, you know, give a certain complexity to those villains with always the chance that they could be somehow redeemed near the end?

JDS: Uh, I mean, I think we just like the idea of complexity in the villains, like, just-just generally and that came from, uh, Avatar but I think solidified on Korra. Uh, you know, when you look at a character like Amon or you look at a character like Zaheer, like, there were aspects of those characters that I totally agreed with.

LM: Mm-hm. Yeah, we also liked the idea not every, like, villain gets to be fully redeemed. Like, maybe there are things that are a little too bad to come back from. I think because we had worked on Avatar and Zuko was such a huge thing and he was such an awesome character, we didn’t want to immediately make everyone Zuko who was like yeah, and ultimately everyone becomes a good guy in the end.

JDS: Right.

[Hosts make noises of agreement.]

LM: So we wanted to, uh, to just have that door open.

JDS: But we also just didn’t want to do the mustachioed villain that’s just, like, a villain for villain’s sake so it was, we were playing this middle ground.

LM: Yeah, where you have characters who are doing bad things and you can kinda explain how they would get to that point.

JDS: Right.

LM: And ‘cuz that’s just, honestly that’s just a fascinating thing for me. Like I enjoy kinda studying what events would have to happen to get this character who you think would never do this thing, what would have to happen to push them to do that thing. That’s just something that I find incredibly interesting and love exploring, but uh, you know, hey man, shit gets crazy.

JDS: It does get crazy.

[Hosts laugh]

DA: Was there, um, was there a character who you were absolutely certain that their story was going to turn out a specific way that just flipped and went the, like, in the complete opposite direction to what you were expecting in the course of just figuring out the story?

JDS: I mean, you know, I-I think the big one for us was-was Shiro. You know, we’ve sort of talked about this publicly, we were orig--the original creation of Shiro was to set Keith up as the leader.

LM: I mean he was essentially our Sven. You know, we just changed his name from Sven to the original.

JDS: But we were going to keep him around a little longer than Sven lasted.

LM: Yeah, that was our whole thing was, like, “Okay, we still want to kinda do that Voltron thing where this character leaves the show, but we don’t wanna make--we don’t want him to feel disposable, we want him to feel like a super important character.” And then that kinda ended up kicking us in the butt because then the execs were like, “This is a super important character! You can’t, you can’t--”

MM: Well he became Space Dad.

LM: And it’s--and you know it’s--they were really just kinda channeling, I think, the love that they ultimately knew the fans would have for that character because he ended up being such a huge fan-favorite and, you know, we really can just thank the writers for that because they made sure that he did not feel, uh, you know, expendable.

JDS: Like, like, sort of expendable and--and also, like, you know, on one hand he fills a potentially boring space, which is, like, yeah, the leader/soldier/hero guy, and they very much made him not that, and, you know, that’s I think a perfect example of like, uh, a story point that just evolved on its own and sort of took a direction that we couldn’t have foreseen but we were-we were ultimately super happy with.

LM: Yeah.

MM: With knowing that Shiro was going to be sticking with you throughout the-the rest of the show, did you ever think of going back and telling us what his childhood was like, or who his parents were, or anything like that? He was one of the few characters who we really didn’t get that kind of a backstory on.

JDS: You know, we had originally a flashback pitch, uh, that showed Shiro I think with his family at a young age. It just, it became not as important to tell as some of the other aspects of his life, but also we had a lot of other familial backstories with the other characters that we wanted to cover.

LM: Yeah, and--I think, yeah, some of Shiro’s backstory just ultimately felt a little bit repetitive. I’m sure we could’ve, like, looked into it more and tried to find a way to make it stand out from the other characters, but ultimately when you’re, you know, moving at breakneck pace and trying to make these stories just happen, you know. I wish we would’ve had more time to sit there and-and really make every part of every character figured out 100%.

JDS: Yeah.

LM: But, when you’re moving so fast and you’re, “Okay, we have this, it feels like it’s stepping on the space for this other character, okay get rid of it.” Move forward. And that’s--that’s just kinda how these-these shows happen.

JDS: And it’s-it’s the same way that we, you know, we would sort of run in. With this many characters in a show, we’d often run into the thing where it’d be like, season 2, the big, sort of, the loudest aspect from the fandom would be like, “Oh, this character isn’t getting enough screentime.” And it’d be like, “Okay, we got, you know, this many episodes, we got this many characters, we’ll get to ‘em, but there’s only a certain amount of time.” And that’s all while juggling all the production craziness of, like, having three or four shows in production at a time.

MM: Yeah, I remember asking you at the end of season 6, uh, where was Matt? [laughter]

JDS: Yeah.

LM: Yeah. Well, Matt, actually, was--he started to become a little bit of a casualty of the availability of his voice actor because, uh, Blake was so hard to get into the studio, we literally found ourselves just writing him out of episodes.

JDS: Yeah.

LM: Like, and-and it was sad because I-I was really excited that we’d gotten Blake, um, and I was a really big fan of him from Workaholics, but he’s busy. He’s a busy actor, and so I think I had always wanted Matt to be a little more involved, but hey when you can’t get the actor in you just, you know. It--I guess you either have to get a sound-alike and we never really liked having to do that because it never sounded alike.

JDS: Right.

[laughter]

LM: So, uh, so yeah, he kinda--we ended up kinda crutching a ton on Sam, which I think was not at all expected.

JDS: Right.

LM: Because Sam was always kind of--his head was definitely on the chopping block, of like, “Hey, do we wanna give Pidge some sort of, like, she had a success with Matt, do we wanna give her, like, a failure with Sam?”

GT: Right.

LM: And then, like, I had no clue how-how integral he would become to that final Earth season, so it’s--I guess it’s good that we didn’t just axe him.

JDS: And it-it’s tough, like, it’s-it’s, you know, we call it, like, stunt-casting sometimes, but that’s-that’s the risk you run with, you know, hiring actors that voice-acting is not their, like, their main profession--

LM: Like their main bread and butter.

JDS: Yeah, like that’s--

GT: Like Norman Reedus.

MM: Steven, like Steven Yeun.

LM: Yeah. And Steven, he really bent over backwards to make himself available for us, but even-even with him we ran into a couple episodes, like, I think-I think we even, we’ve talked about it there was one episode, the game show episode!

[Hosts make sounds of understanding]

LM: Well you’ll notice in the beginning Keith sounds really groggy for no reason, and we literally just couldn’t get Steven in to re-read that line. It was like, “Alright! Well, this is going through.”

MM: “He’s just groggy.”

LM: “That’s production! Sorry.” It’s, you know. But hey man, sometimes that’s the fun of it. You can watch that episode and be like, “Oh, that’s one of the problems with making a TV show on a fast schedule.”

JDS: Right right right.

GT: So one of the things--and this is of very minor importance by comparison to character arcs--but one of the things that I noticed over a lot of Voltron merchandise: the tie-in books, uh, the toys, was all this stuff about each Paladin being a guardian spirit of this or that or what in the other, and the lions were labeled that way, too. What happened with that stuff?

JDS: This is where our, like, you know, our-our producing minds and our consumer/product, sort of, minds, uh, uh--

LM: Diverge.

JDS: Yeah. Where we sort of, like, grew apart. We sort of went divergent from each other. And, you know, early on I think that was a pitch that we got when we had, like, meetings and I think had we, I don’t even know how to say this--

LM: Yeah, it was--it was something that was not really in our original pitch--

JDS: It was--it was pitched to us from, like, the consumer/product standpoint, like, “Hey, this would be a good thing to latch onto.” And it just wasn’t really something that we were--

LM: Yeah, I think there were symbols that they really liked that they wanted to use in some of the consumer products, and like we’re all for it--

GT: Yeah, like different lion logos or whatever?

LM: --but we-we couldn’t really, like, it wasn’t inherent in our story and we struggled to find a way to work it in, and ultimately I think we just kind of came--we knew, like, we had voiced our opinions on the symbols. We weren’t super fond of the design, we’d done some designs to fix ‘em, and they had, kind of, just, I guess--

JDS: They had already moved along with their designs and so it was just--

LM: --and so we didn’t really want to work them into the show, just ‘cuz we didn’t feel like they could adhere to the aesthetic we’d created. And so we’re just like, “I’m sorry, it’s gonna have to be, like, a weird offshoot point”. So, you know. But it’s a lesson to learn that, uh, I wish we had control over everything in the show, but we don’t, and there’s other offshoots with the consumer products, and-and they kind of work in their own little bubble and we work in ours, and we try to meet up to--as best we can--to make things work.

JDS: But it doesn’t always work.

LM: Yeah, I mean we worked the lion upgrades in, like, that was asked specifically for the toys, and we found a way to, you know, get those into the show and make them feel kinda natural. But we couldn’t do it with everything.

GT: Right.

MM: There was a 3D-VR experience called Voltron VR Chronicles--

JDS: Yeah.

MM: --and that first episode that came out was called “Seeds of Corruption”. It was a Lance-focused episode, and they had said there would be more episodes coming. Did you ever hear what happened to that?

JDS: I think, yeah we were-we were, like, sorta peripherally involved, uh…

LM: I mean, yeah, they showed it to us along the way, and it was really cool to see it take form. I-I just don’t, I don’t know, I know that there were plans, they had like a story arced out.

JDS: Yeah, I think ultimately, a lot of it just comes down to if that-that was like a-a rip-roaring success, you would have absolutely seen more, but I think maybe,I don’t know, maybe-maybe there just wasn’t support because it didn’t-it didn’t get the numbers that they needed.

LM: Yeah, I don’t know how many Voltron fans have, like, the full VR/PS--

MM: Right.

LM: --VR setup. So it’s kinda--sadly I think it’s kind of a niche sale and I think when you’re marketing to something that’s-that’s not really, like, globally, massively accepted yet, maybe it’s a little harder to really get a big return on your investment.

JDS: I’d say V--like, I’d like to know exactly, sort of, on a-on a-on a bigger scale--like, VR in general. I’m excited about it still from, like, an artistic perspective, but I still haven’t quite seen, you know, the promise of-of all the things that were, like, supposed to be happening right now.

GT: Yeah, what’s the killer app, right?

JDS: Yeah, and I’m-I’m going back all the way to Lawnmower Man, guys, come on.

GT: Yeah.

JDS: Got our rig, while we’re spinnin’ around.

MM: What we need is a place called The Oasis like in Ready Player One, where we’re all connected and we can watch Voltron episodes completely in 360 degree immersion.

JDS: One day.

LM: There you go.

[laughter]

GT: Yeah, I’ve often wondered how that’d even work. To have full 360 degree immersion, how do you make sure you’re looking where you need to look as the story unfolds around you?

JDS: Right. That’s the big question.

MM: They cue you to look in certain directions to make sure that you’re following along with the story, but it also gives it an opportunity, if you are-are really interested in looking in a different direction, then they might have alternative options like Choose Your Adventure type things.

GT: Yeah, that’d be really tough to write in a-in a effective way, I guess--

MM: Right.

GT: --as a story. But getting back to-to-to what you talked about with the consumer products and all that good stuff, I mean, to a point it boils down to this Voltron not being creator-owned but rather a licensed property. And so I was wondering how would you--how might you compare and contrast Voltron with licensed properties you’ve worked on in the past such as various DC characters, G.I. Joe, and-and whatever you might have in the hopper right now. How would you compare and contrast Voltron with those others?

JDS: Uh, I mean, well, it’s interesting, like, I think Voltron is unique in the sense that it’s still--I don’t even know if it’s, like, owned by World Events--but it’s still, they still very much have, like, a say in the creative direction of it so that’s-that’s one aspect that we found unique, uh, even when producing the show. But I think it’s also, it was this property that had kind of, you know--I know you guys have been carrying the torch--but kinda gone away for a while, right?

GT: Oh, absolutely.

JDS: So we were kind of coming up with a lot of this lore and this backstory on our own. We were obviously using stuff from, you know Go--Beast King and Voltron, but it was unique in that it was just gone. So I think it was off people’s radars for a while, whereas like the DC stuff that we worked on, like DC’s been around the whole time, you know? People kind of know what to expect, they know generally who the characters are, what their personalities and backstories are, so it was--it was unique in that, like, we were, like, kind of reintroducing this and in a sense, it absolutely isn’t creator-driven but I think we got, sort of, put into, like, a, uh, a creator position on it.

LM: Mm-hm. And we were thrilled to be able to do it. We were thrilled to be able to bring, like, our vision to this show and I mean, essentially it almost felt like we were kind of almost recreating it, like, in our own little way. Whereas a lot of the times when I worked on a lot of the DC stuff, like, you know, I was never recreating Superman, I was just telling a story in his world, you know, with that character. And there was always, like, a very specific set of rules as to what that character could and couldn’t do. We could never really break that mold. But with Voltron, we have a lot of freedom to remake these characters how we felt we wanted them to be for the story, so I mean that was really great. I personally never worked on something that, I think, was gonna have such a large, kinda, consumer products, um, push behind it. I had mostly worked--a lot of the DC stuff was just kind of--

MM: They were just stories, right?

LM: Yeah, they were stories, they were one-offs, they were--they kind of, they expected--they knew, like, they were going to go to the specific kind of comic book fan market and-and that was it. It was just kind of like, “Here’s one piece of art that’s out there, enjoy it or don’t enjoy it.” And then Voltron had so much more around it, the whole franchise and, like, how this was going to play out in other departments. It wasn’t really just us there to, kind of, make the decisions.

JDS: It was the first time we had been in so many meetings with so many other departments that were, like, pitching us their vision for Voltron, which, you know, sometimes it was like, “Okay, that’s kind of a neat concept,” and sometimes it was like--

LM: “We’re not doing that.”

JDS: “We’re very scared about what we’re seeing right now.” Like, how do we nicely tell these people we’re not gonna do it?

LM: I feel we’ve told the--I think we’ve told this story before of, like, how many times we got asked if Voltron could talk.

JDS: Yeah.

LM: Yeah, they just really wanted to make a little, a helmet that, you know, you talked in the helmet and then your voice came out and it was Voltron’s voice. And I’m like, “I’m sorry, he’s not--it’s a robot! It doesn’t talk!” But--

MM: You got him to talk in “The Voltron Show”.

JDS: Exactly.

LM: Yeah, that was our wink-wink.

JDS: That was the total nod to that moment.

LM: All just so they could sell Voltron helmets. Just kidding.

[laughter]

JDS: There was a lot--it was a lot--it was a lot of coordinating beyond, you know, beyond uh, a scale we had seen before. And we were coming off of Korra, which was literally just, like, “Make a story. There is nothing tied to this beyond a story.”

LM: Yeah. And it was cre--you know, Bryan and Mike’s creation and then they got to make their own artistic vision there. And so, yeah, going from that and then coming to Voltron where we very much had to, kind of, play game with the studio and we were, like, 100% understanding of that going into it. But yeah, it’s a different part of the industry and you just, you adjust, and it’s just part of your profession, your career, and as a professional you-you figure it out and you make it work.

JDS: Right.

GT: Okay.

MM: Did you guys have any sense for inclusion, in diversity, in representation, all that you kinda wanted to bring into the show even when you were starting out?

LM: Yeah.

JDS: I mean I think that was--the idea was to-to make the characters, you know--you know, the original Beast King obviously was a bunch of Japanese characters which was, you know, totally appropriate for its time and, uh, you know I probably think Sven was probably the bad version of trying to, like, give these characters divergent voices in the, uh, in Voltron.

LM: But yeah, I mean, we always knew that we wanted to feature, like, a diverse cast as much as we could. Yeah. For us, our story was always our story, and within that story we wanted to be able to feature as much diversity as possible.

JDS: We never made it, like, the focus. They were just characters that happened to be from different, different backgrounds, but, you know, the Earth that we had sort of conceptualized was kind of more of a united Earth where everything was blended anyway. So it wasn’t, you weren’t going to get, like, a ton of, like, accents or the sort of trademark, you know, things when shows are bringing in diverse characters. It was just like, “Yeah, that’s Lance! He’s Cuban. That’s Hunk.” You know what I mean?

LM: And a lot of those things we never even really mentioned in the show, they would maybe make a little reference to it, but I think people didn’t know Lance was Cuban until Jeremy went out and said it. And then people didn’t really know Hunk was Samoan until Tyler went out and said it. For us, it was just like, “These are our characters.” And we maybe had these ideas of who they were, but the show didn’t center around their ethnicity, the show centered around how they deal when they fight this war.

JDS: Right. It was more personality-centric than it was anything else.

DA: With that, because obviously it becomes very difficult in terms of, like, with diversity--especially in animation because it’s in its infancy almost in terms of branching out and also being able to represent different areas--was there ever a time where you thought you actually wanted to make it more explicit who they were and where they came from and their backgrounds to, sort of, just to make it more, kind of, like, obvious where they’d all come from? Or was it always just you were going to allow that-that breathing room, that space for people to kind of look at these characters and maybe take a piece of them to sort of represent themselves? Like was there more of, like, an openness that you wanted to take with that diversity or was there ever, like, specifically in your head that you wanted to try and say more about it but the story just didn’t allow?

JDS: Yeah, I mean, well, there was little cues, right? So there was, like, an episode where Lance sort of said he missed Veradero Beach, and like, he sort of, you know, we had like small little homages to it. I think, you know, for us the big one obviously was Shiro, and we had a different story planned for Shiro. And when we explained his backstory and-and, you know, we were showing he was, you know--this wasn’t ethnic diversity--but we were trying to have some representation with-with LGBTQ+, and that, you know, we might’ve been pushing a little too early, too soon, for where maybe the-the studio or the industry was-was comfortable at the time. Um, and so obviously we-we had to divert that story. But I think we didn’t want to put too much import on anyone’s ethnic background. We wanted them, we wanted people to be able to find what they found appealing purely based on-on-on character, on-on the content of the individual character’s character. So it was-it was vague, we-we, you know, and it wasn’t intentional, it just, it wasn’t a focus of ours to make it overly explicit that they were--you know, Keith. Nobody knows where Keith landed in terms of anything.

LM: Yeah. It’s always, it’s-it’s tricky because the thing that you risk I think by super nailing down a character, is you can make one group really happy, but then you can also exclude a lot of other groups. And we-we wanted to--we would’ve loved for everyone to be able to be represented but couldn’t have, like, a million characters in this show, like, with large talking roles to feel like everyone really got their due. So what you oftentimes have to do is realize you have to create these characters and hope that people can see themselves in them. And sometimes the more--I mean it even happens with story, and like some of our crazy space magic stuff: the more you nail it down and explain it, like, kind of, the more the magic is taken out of it. And I’m not--I don’t want to say that’s for every situation ever, I think, I hope that everyone gets explicit representation somewhere, somehow, and hopefully in the coming years there will be so much representation across the board that no one will ever feel left out because they’ll be able to see themselves somewhere. But this, you know, we just had one show and a limited amount of characters to do it in, and so I think we didn’t want to nail down every one character so specifically to make anyone feel like absolutely “you are not in this cast”.

JDS: Right.

MM: So, out of all the characters, who did you feel had the most obvious representation other than Shiro?

LM: Huh, I, uh, I guess I would just say, just, Lance because Jeremy said he was Cuban and everybody was like, “He’s Cuban!” You know, it was a celebration, but I mean beyond that I know, like, I think Pidge was, like--we wrote in the bible that she was Italian, but like, that was never really, like, a thing ever--and I don’t even know if I would fully categorize her as that.

JDS: I wouldn’t.

LM: Yeah, I think that we really didn’t super nail down much of anyone.

JDS: Yeah, I mean, we just, you know, just tried to create a cast of characters that visually you could tell were from different backgrounds.

LM: It’s tricky ‘cuz there’s just, there’s--sadly there’s a nasty part of fandom out there where people will say, “You can’t cosplay this character unless you are specifically, like, the exact look of that character.” And we just don’t-don’t always want to give fuel to that sort of fire.

JDS: We want everybody to be able to find something that they appreciate and that they can latch onto about the character of all our characters.

MM: Okay. Like, I was thinking, like, Ezor and Zethrid. They kinda looked like they ended up together.

JDS: Sure. Okay.

MM: Okay.

LM: Oh, you want to talk about that?

JDS: You know, we’ve sort of talked about it in-in the past. We’ve-we’ve talked about it in-depth in the past. There was specifically with LGBTQ representation, I think there was a line within the studio and within the industry as a whole when it comes to shows of this type, which are sort of, like, traditionally marketed to be, like, boys toys, action/adventure, 6-11, which are, like, kind of these-these buzzwords that-that go out when you’re creating these things, um, where, like, characters on the periphery are fair game to some extent.

LM: They’re less-scrutinized.

JDS: They’re less-scruti--yes, less-scrutinized.

LM: Especially in a, in a boys toys, uh, show, if they’re female characters, they’re definitely less-scrutinized.

JDS: There’s just less import put on them in terms of they’re gonna sell a million toys. Um, and that’s--

LM: That’s a sad reality.

JDS: That’s a sad reality. And one, I will say that on a positive note is changing. And I truly believe that, like, we’re entering an age with animation and IP, if you look at something like Overwatch--

MM: Right.

JDS: --you know, which we, again, we sort of used as, like, this, like, barometer when we were pitching out storylines to the executive branch and-and at that time it was like, “Well, that’s a video game, and that’s meant for teenagers,” and that’s--you know, they were looking for-for reasons for us to not to divert or to change course. And you know all-all within, like, from sort of a business perspective you can kind of see it through that lens and go like, “Okay, but I mean, guys, this isn’t really a big deal.”

MM: You just made a show for all ages, right?

JDS: We made a show for all ages, but we were broaching subject matter for, you know, for kids to sort of, like, you know, maybe think about. And that’s something that we hang our hat on, I mean we did it on Korra I think really, really well and I think Mike and Bryan were-were pioneers with that and-and-and taking an IP that allowed its audience to age up with it. So we were sort of hoping that the audience had been on for long enough that they were like, evolving along with the show. But, you know, maybe we pushed a little too hard too soon. I think Ezor and Zethrid were clearly not, you know, uh, characters that were, sort of, front and center enough for the studio to, uh, to have any worry about.

LM: They weren’t quite the characters that, I think, they were kind of hanging the franchise on, so, uh… And that-that’s the thing is like, you’ll get a lot more freedom with some kind of side characters than you will a lot of times with the main characters.

GT: Yeah.

JDS: Keep in mind, guys, like, the other reason, you know, that Shiro stuck around was because he was the soldier character that was meant to sell a ton of toys. So it was like, “You can’t kill this guy because he’s like our, he’s our Optimus Prime. He’s our Duke. He’s our, you know, Liono, he’s our main guy. He’s our, you know, He-Man.” And, you know, that’s from a business perspective, like, if you’re sort of, like, looking at this thing without any, like, sort of social structure around it, like, it’s-it’s an ugly truth that sort of presents itself. That’s, by the way, part of the reason we wanted to use him as, like, the leader that sort of, like, allows the other character to sort of fill that position and rise up. It be-it became a, uh, uh, a strong throughline for Keith’s character to live up to his potential, and we did that to some degree, but we had to adjust the story.

MM: Yeah, well you had them saving each other constantly throughout the course of the series.

JDS: Yep, and it was, hey, it was one of those changes we, like, think totally, like, helped the show, so it’s...

LM: Yeah, it’s part of the job.

JDS: It’s part of the process.

LM: When you get a change, like, you know, you don’t just just kinda stomp your feet and storm off, you just, you try to make the best story you can, so ultimately when we get the note “Shiro has to be in-in the show and--forever”, then we don’t just be like, “Well whatever, we’re just gonna write him out of these episodes and treat him like-like nothing.” No, we’re gonna find a way to make his story still very important to the show and we’re also going to find a way to not disservice Keith and just make him--I mean he could’ve been season 1 Keith the whole series, where he just barely does anything, but we didn’t wanna do that. We always had, um, you know these ideas of him rising to be more, and so how do we service both of those characters? And we just kinda had to roll with the punches and-and hope that we were able to do so in a satisfactory way.

DA: So was that a huge thing, like the-the perception from the, sort of, toy companies of him being, like, this really stereotypical macho, kind of, symbol? Was that a huge reason why you kind of started to subvert that? Or was that idea always in your head, or the back of your mind for what you wanted Shiro to be around the time when you found out, like, he wasn’t going to be leaving the show? Like, when did that shift and when did he start to shift into the character he then became further down the line in terms of, like, showing his disability representation, but also you know, the queer representation as well? When did you start to, like, try to fold that in to kind of, like, subvert that macho hero perspective?

JDS: Uh, I mean, you know, I think the subversion, that’s like an aspect of it. We-we absolutely, you know, sort of knew we wanted to work in, you know, queer representation into the show. It was just, for us it was a matter of when and we knew we had to, like, try to--I don’t know--ingratiate ourselves, make sure that we were doing the show that the studio was happy with before we broached it because we knew it was a big deal, uh, for the studio and kind of for this genre of show.

LM: Yeah, and-and specifically in this genre, like, there are things that I-I’d always hoped we’d be able to do with the show that I definitely didn’t put in the bible ‘cuz there’s this kind of unspoken rule where if you push too hard too fast, you’ll probably get a no. But if you prove to them that you can make them a good show, and then you ask for it, like, once you’ve proven yourself, there’s a better chance that you’re gonna get a yes.

JDS: Yeah, you’ve sorta got a track record behind you.

LM: And so, like, I had, you know, always had these ideas of like, what if this-this macho guy was actually queer? That was about the time when I came across the bury your gays trope and I realized, “Oh, that’s not something we wanna do.” I knew what we needed Shiro to do in the story--which was we needed him to kind of exit the story--and so it was like, “Okay, well, you know what, let’s not do the representation through Shiro, let’s find it in another character somewhere down the line. We’ll move forward with this story.” And so then when that--

JDS: And this is still when we were still under the assumption that Shiro was not going to be in the show.

LM: Yeah, this was literally, like, development before we were even full-time in-house at DreamWorks working on it.

MM: Mm-hm.

LM: When, you know, we come in, we’re working on the show, and then at some point we get, y-you know--

JDS: The mandate.

LM: The mandate that, like, he’s gonna stay alive and that’s when we started thinking, “Okay, well then, we can--some of the things we’d taken off the table we can actually do again.” So we weren’t necessarily working them in hardcore from season 1, but I mean you’ll notice that, you know, Shiro isn’t, like, wink-winky eyein’ at any ladies, he’s always just a very respectable man. We knew his, I guess his sexual orientation was not something that needed to be explored in the first season, so it left that door open to us.

JDS: But yeah, I mean, I-I think the important thing was that, like, even in our original pitch in which, you know, Adam wasn’t part of the Galaxy Garrison, and-and doesn’t die in Earth’s invasion and all that sort of thing, like, the idea was to show representation but not--i-it didn’t affect Shiro’s character in any way. He didn’t-he didn’t act any differently, he didn’t fall into any of the tropes that you would, you know, in shows like I had growing up, like, a show, like, you know, for instance like Three’s Company where it was like, “Oh, Jack Tripper is pretending to be a gay man, so anytime Mr. Roper comes up he’s acting super effeminate.” Not that there’s, you know, anything wrong with acting effeminate, but it was its own trope. Shiro was sort of, like, bucking-bucking that in our eyes.

DA: So with that, obviously, you know the story changed with Adam and Shiro from what you originally envisaged. When in the development stage, like, when did you get the go on that? Like, when did you get the yes? Was it when, like, was season 7 all wrapped? Was it already done? Was it already, like, in the show and then you had to, like--

JDS: Yes. Here’s the weird thing, right? So this is--I’m gonna give you a very, very loose sort of fast and dirty breakdown of how it went down. So, we had a pitch for Adam and Shiro. It made it all the way to, like, storyboards. It made it through premise, through script, through storyboards. It got storyboarded, it was like a day out from shipping. And then, you know, we got called into a conversation where we were told we couldn’t have Adam and Shiro in a relationship. So we’re sort of in this weird position where we’re like, “Okay, well, let us pitch you, like, a version where, like, maybe they’re not saying things that are so explicit,” and maybe, you know, we can adjust the dialogue. So we pitched that back, and that sort of got rejected again. And at that point we were a little confused because, you know, Overwatch was out, and-and Steven Universe was obviously taking off, so we were sort of pointing at those things and-and we were getting pushback because it was like, “Well, you guys aren’t creator-owned. This is a show that’s, you know, more boy-centric, like, 6-11.” And I know this, it-it sounds horrible, but these were the excuses that we were hearing back.

MM: But by that time you had known who your audience was, right?

JDS: You know, we did, but-but the marketing machine that’s behind a show, like, those millions of dollars are spent and are going in a certain direction. And for us to, like, and… they’re millions of dollars, like, so from a company perspective, like, we were making a show that was diverting from maybe its original purpose. And that’s me, you know, sort of just looking almost from the outside in as much as inside we were. That-that’s all we could sort of take away from it. So we were given-given, like, notes on how to revise the scene, we salvaged as much of the staging as we could, so like the original version had a lot of the staging the same, but they were in an apartment and not in the Galaxy Garrison lounge, and you know, Adam was changed to be like a flight partner and so, you know, make it very much like a Goose and Maverick relationship. That got produced. That got made, the entire season got made, and we were well into making season 8 when the door sort of squeaked back open, um, and at that point I want to say Shiro was at least in development. And I think--She-Ra not Shiro. She-Ra. She-Ra--within, uh, within the studio, and I think the studio was just, sort of, beginning to sort of open its eyes to-to the possibilities of there being representation in their shows and there not being a huge backlash, a huge public backlash, for it. So they said, “Hey, maybe you can revisit that scene.” Adam’s, you know, fate was already sealed at that point, unfortunately. And so we had this decision. Do we revise the dialogue and have some level of representation versus no level of representation? And we had to make that decision really quickly and we decided to do it, hoping that confirming a character, being able to say that publicly, would, you know, make some in-roads and at least open more doors in the future for shows of this kind. And you know, obviously things turned out the way they did. We were very aware of-of the trope of bury your gays, but we thought that this was, uh, uh, a more important step to take. I think, we’ve said it before, like, our biggest, you know, regret was going to Comic-Con and making--

LM: Yeah, we--and, though the problem is we worked in animation a long time. We’re very used to that idea of, like, some progress is progress, like, small steps, like, you know, like... I’ve been--I’ve been campaigning for, like, more female involvement. I got two ladies in a main cast of seven, that’s-that’s nowhere near equality, but I was doing, like, backflips because, you know, every--any other time it could’ve just been one token female. We’re used to kind of those baby steps and and taking what we can get and appreciating it. We can’t expect the public to understand that, and that was where we kind of lost sight. We thought, uh, our excitement w-would, you know, I guess, somehow--

JDS: Carry through.

LM: --carry through and-and I think it was kind of like a snap back to reality, for me for sure, just realizing, oh yeah, like, we’re the people who’ve been in, you know, like, the pitch-black room for five years, and then we get, like, one window cracked open. And then someone comes over and is like, “Why are you in this pitch-black room, this sucks.” We’re like, “No, no, no, that window that’s cracked open this is the greatest room ever!” Like, you know, it’s-it’s sadly we’ve been, I guess, a little… our views have been skewed.

JDS: But I-I-I would say this, too, that, like, if given the choice again, I-I d-I don’t know what the right answer is. Like, I wanna say we’d make the same decision again because it’s the choice of confirming a main hero character, or nothing at all, like, that’s kind of the position we found ourselves in.

LM: Yeah.

JDS: Obviously, guys, if we could learn from this, and, like, go into, like, Voltron 2.0, or go into, like, next show 2.0, the assumption is that you would-you would have that built into the character from the get-go, and you would-you could--everybody would be on the same page.

LM: Yeah. You would-you would get signatures so no one would change their minds.

JDS: Yeah, it wouldn’t be a thing that y-you sort of had to, like, wait to ingratiate yourself to the studio with, and all that. So--but I think, I think we’re getting to that place. I think the industry is getting to that place. It sucks for us personally that we had to take lumps along the way and we wish we could’ve done things better, but, um, and in our case--and in that situation--it was sort of like…

LM: Yeah, we made the only choice we had to make, and we hoped, uh, that it would mean something to someone.

JDS: Yeah.

MM: Alright, so, you guys had a lot to deal with there. You had a marketing machine that was marketing to a different audience. During the course of you working on the show, DreamWorks had been bought out by Comcast, so Universal became y-your parent company, right?

LM: Yeah.

JDS: Yup.

LM: Yeah.

MM: So there were things that happened that--there were deals that were already made through DreamWorks when it was just DreamWorks, and now there were changes being made as a result of Universal coming in. So there were a lot of hands in the till--I’m sure there were a lot of people that gave you notes during the course of production and everything--and you had to take it all into consideration and still come up with the story you wanted to tell.

JDS: Well, I mean that’s kind of the case on any show. I mean, this was a lot because we were such a product-driven show, but-but as a showrunner, when you’re working on existing IP, that’s kinda par for the course. This was another added layer on top of that, obviously, we were broaching subject matter which, like--again, in, like, Steven Universe, I think Rebecca’s said that she dealt with her own version of this and that was on a creator-driven show. And Korra was obviously able to broach the subject matter at the very, very end of the show, but that was not--that was not the understanding of the show, you know, while it was in production, that was something that happened at the very end. But again, we were in a-in a unique situation in that, like, you know, we were-we’re working on this IP that-that is, it’s not our thing. The other element that we had to contend with, you know, Lauren and I had this moment where we kinda, like, were like, “Is this something we, like, walk away from?” And that’s not really on the table either because we had a crew there. Because we had, honestly like, investment in the quality of the show that we made up to that point, and to sort of hand that over to somebody else, it was just--

LM: Yeah, it’s just a matter of, you know, there’s the obvious way where you ask for a thing and, you know, you don’t get it, you get mad, and you leave. But we’re, I think, just much more accustomed to just as-as professionals, you ask for a thing, you don’t get it, you try to make the best of what you’ve got and you find a way, like, I’m sure there’s a version where it’s so dire and so awful that it’s nothing near the show that you wanted it to be and then you-you walk away. But we felt like we could still send the correct messages. Like, even if, if we ended up with, like, a hard no, no representation situation, we could still at least try to send positive messages through the body of the show if it weren’t through an individual character’s representation.

JDS: Right. I-I think our-our big lesson, too, was, like, “go all in or go nothing at all”. Is that our takeaway from this, or, you know it was just a lot to learn from the entirety of the experience, so it was-it was a big stew. There was a lot of moving parts. And that’s not to take away from-from anybody being, like, hurt or even worse, you know, offended by, like, how things shook out. We’ve learned from everybody’s reactions on this subject matter in particular, but it was--that was the truth of our circumstance.

MM: Okay.

GT: When you guys, uh, were researching Voltron, I mean obviously the two of you had seen some of Voltron back in the day, but when you were researching this IP--which had been more or less dormant for quite a long time--how did you go about doing that, aside from watching the show? Did you, you know--for example, you know, the pilots’ uniforms didn’t match the colors of their lions. Was there some research involved in figuring out what was done back then and how you wanted to address it in the new show? Something like that?

LM: A lot of it we just kind of followed our gut. Like, we definitely, I know I watched the old show, I watched Beast King GoLion on Crunchyroll of all places and just got myself refamiliarized with the show. One of those things that was always kind of confusing to me was, like, the differences of the pilots’ uniforms. And we looked at, like, comics and-and other, kind of, shoot-off material that had been done for Voltron and they had, I think even Voltron Force, they kinda changed the colors of the outfits to match the lions, but you know, that was, I think just, you know, me, I know my personal opinion and, you know, Joaquim feel free to jump in if you have differing opinions.

JDS: I agreed with you ‘cuz we did it.

LM: We did it! Like, I, I had always imagined, like, I think because as a kid I had, I had attached the characters more to their colors than to their specific lions, and in my kid brain I didn’t even realize, like, I had to kind of relearn that, “Oh, the red guy’s in the black lion, not the red lion. And the blue guy’s in the red lion, not the blue lion.” Because I know the pink girl’s in the blue lion, because that’s the one thing I remember. And so, when I would see, like, the comics had changed their outfit colors, it always felt weird to me, ‘cuz I, I had identified those characters so strongly with their colors. And so we kinda came up with this storyline that ultimately, you know, we liked because it progressed the characters, it didn’t keep them--we didn’t wanna be the-the show that did everything kinda like, nothing ever changes, everything stays the same through the whole show. And so this idea of the characters starting in one lion and then progressing to the next, but keeping their, their original colors and then ultimately in my happy child nostalgia place getting us to the original, like, Voltron line-up was something that, I don’t know, I was really excited about.

JDS: Yeah, I mean it was, it was a cool way to sort of, like, you know back into the familiar for, like, old fans, um, but I think that’s the really unique thing about Voltron in general. It’s such, I mean you guys are-are well-versed in it, but for a-a vast majority I’d say of the fans that grew up watching it when they were kids, it’s this foggy show that you had, sort of these, like, big pillars that you could latch onto in terms of what you remembered about it, but putting all those things together didn’t always necessarily make sense, so… I mean I remember at some point even when we were, like, in the early days of, like, making the show, I made this huge, like, mistake talking about Shiro and Sven and it was... I remember both Lauren and Tim correcting me like, “No, dude that just wasn’t the case” and I was like, “Really?”

LM: Yeah, like, Joaquim at one point he was like, “What, Sven wasn’t in the black lion?”

JDS: And he wasn’t and it was like, “No,” and I was like, “Really?” And I’d already done the research and I’d somehow again sort of undone and gone back to what my child brain remembered.

LM: But yeah, I mean, even looking at that old art, when you look at Sven’s outfit, he has, like, the black outfit and he has this gold trim.

JDS: He’s got the gold trim, man!

LM: He feels like he should be the leader. But it’s like, he’s got that special gold trim that no one else has, but it’s just kind of a weird thing.

JDS: But he was also kind of emotionally, like--

LM: He was kind of like, you know--

JDS: --kind of the big brother. I don’t know.

LM: He was--Keith was your standard kinda 80’s hero/leader guy, but, I mean Sven was the one who, like, put his life on the line to protect Lance, and so he was always the guy that I respected a ton. And I just appreciated that character.

JDS: He’s just, he’s just--yeah, exactly.

GT: Yeah, that makes sense. And another example--and I’m not just listing that as, like, the thing, but another item--I mean, clearly Voltron’s design was revised. One thing that disappeared was the emblem on the-the chest with the cross, which you know, you know, there in GoLion, there is an implication that there may be some, uh, western cultural impact on the planet Altea just through some of the gestures in the earlier seasons wherein the presence of a church on the planet and things like that. Was the thought to revamp this design, was it just to give it its own, its own distinct look? Or was it, was it sort of looking, “Wow, what is this here for? Does this-does this symbol mean anything in this new version of Altea where these lions are made from a comet?” I mean, I-I’m just curious as to how some of that kind of stuff--not just the uniforms, not just the emblem, but those sorts of things--as you look at the old stuff going, “Hm, what can we use, what can we discard?” You know what I mean?

JDS: Well, I mean, I think there’s the want to avoid sort of, like, the-the inherent, sort of, religiosity of it all.

LM: Yeah, well, like a huge part of it is just as we’re creating this story, we’re making an Altea that Earth doesn’t know about so no Earth symbolism should really show up over there. We kind of had to just jump the shark with lions because we’re like, “How do they know what lions are?” I don’t know. Nobody knows.

JDS: Hey by the way--no--but we pitched an idea.

LM: Did we?

JDS: We did. Where, where, uh, we show Alfor on, like, his sojourn and it was like, we show Alfor on his sojourn to, like--

LM: I think we were trying to, like, have some sort of time-travel, or-or was it, like--

JDS: No, it was like we see Alfor doing cave paintings on Oriande or something like that--

LM: --like he saw cave paintings that were lions or something, I don’t know.

JDS: --but he saw the mythical creature on Oriande and that gave him the idea--

GT: The guardian?

JDS: --to make their likeness. But we also pitched a really bad version where it was, what was it? It was like, I forgot what it was, like they go to Earth and they see, they see a lion, a real lion, and they go like, “Oh my gosh! It’s a,” I don’t know, “it’s a mythical whatever whatever!” And they’re just like, “No that’s just a lion.”

LM: Yeah, I don’t know I just think--

MM: I’m glad it wasn’t five yelmores.

[laughter]

JDS: That’s right.

GT: Oh my.

LM: I tried to pitch like, the hoobajoob idea that the comets, they’re like lions with trailing manes and I think Tim just looked at me like I was on some hippie shit.

[laughter]

JDS: But a lot of that stuff, I will also say is just kind of the randomness of how, like, these shows were created back in the day. I don’t think any of the creators of the original Beast King GoLion put, you know there was obviously thought put into it, but I think sometimes it was like, “That’s just cool” or “that’s western iconography that we find appealing, let’s put it on there,” you know. A-and working within that or-or sort of figuring out what to keep and what to lose, you know, we lost Voltron’s lips ‘cuz it creeped us out, like, cool in the show. He looked kind of Egyptian, you know?

GT: Yeah.

JDS: So… yeah.

GT: Yeah, that makes sense. A-a-and you’ve just mentioned cave markings, which leads to another question I had which was a story point in the very first episode, or the first, the pilot showed that there were cave markings in the hiding spots of blue, yellow, and green lions at least, if not also red wherever the heck it was. But Keith had been studying the markings and-and they told stories about a blue lion and had clues about an arrival, and-and it seemed like that night might have been when the arrival had been foretold, and of course on that night Shiro crashes to Earth. So what were the thoughts about who made those cave markings and when?

JDS: Yeah, I mean, so this is where we get a little loosey-goosey. Um, but, you know, I think the idea at the time was, like, you know, civilizations rose up and fell around, around the lions and-and those were sort of the remnants of-of maybe, I don’t know, maybe somebody interfaced with the lion on some level and could, could figure it out? We-we kept it super loosey-goosey. The same thing that, like, the most loosey-goosey of it all was, like, going into Keith’s shack and the frequency lining up with the, with the formation of the rocks and the mountains. That was--

GT: Yes, Fraunhofer lines.

JDS: --none of that makes any sense. It was just visual tomfoolery.

LM: The long story short is we tried to work something in there, and then we got, like, focus-test notes that was like, “Kids are bored, make this scene shorter.”

JDS: Yeah.

LM: And then we cut out a ton of stuff and it ended up being like, “I got these vibes, and then you landed.” And then we never went back, a-and yeah.

JDS: We had, we had a kind of thorough explanation for, like--

LM: We tried. We did.

JDS: --but it was, even that was still loosey-goosey and anytime you’re putting, you know, a suspect board up and you’re tying things with-with red string, like, good luck. I don’t know. That’s all I got to say.

GT: That makes sense to me. [laughter] The answer is “because.”

JDS: Yeah.

LM: Yeah.

GT: That works, that works.

LM: I would’ve loved to be able to have everything figured out on, like, a Star Trek level, but I’m telling ya right here--

GT: I’m work-I’m working on that, Lauren. I’m really working on that.

JDS: Much in the same way that we had to work around the loosey-gooseyness of the original series, maybe somebody will have to take these things, these wacky ideas and just make sense of them.

LM: Yeah maybe someday, someone will, like, fix our mess up.

GT: Ah, you didn’t mess that stuff up. It’s fun stuff that just gets me thinking, worldbuilding and all that stuff.

DA: So, obviously when you went into the epilogue in season 8, I’m bringing it back to, like, the Shiro and Adam thing.

GT: Yeah.

DA: After the response to season 7 and then moving into season 8, when you did eventually get the sort of “go ahead” to move into the epilogue and show Shiro getting married, was there ever a consideration that potentially Adam may not have died? Was there ever a consideration that you could have brought him back, mostly because with the chaos of, like, the war when you got to, uh, was there ever in the back of your head a thought that you might be able to revisit that original storyline a-and bring that back too and end that way?

MM: Can I suggest something?

[The others make noises of assent.]

MM: Okay. You brought back Daibazaal and Altea, so if they could come back, couldn’t Adam come back?

LM: Well, I-I’m gonna an-answer Donya’s bit first, I think the-the issue that we ran into was we had basically made this whole story on Earth where, you know, it was, the whole story was made, kind of, without us really having access to, to that relationship. And so bringing Adam back when he was essentially killed off as a straight man, it was not something that we had any need to do during our time on Earth. And so I think to bring him back at the end would’ve--in our story minds--just kind of, uh, brought up those questions of where was he that whole time. You know, “Why-why didn’t he show up in the rebellion?” sort of deal. It just seemed like it was a pretty far jump to go.

JDS: I will say this, too, like, as much as the door squeaked open on how we could revise the dialogue between Shiro and Adam, you know, I think to, to speak to some-some of the fandom’s complaints even about that scene was that the dialogue wasn’t necessarily explicit even in our revision. And that was, you know, due to, like, what we could and couldn’t say, uh, between the two characters. So even though the door was open, um, it was, it was squeaked open, um, and by the time fan reactions started coming in we literally had, like, a month left at the studio. A-and this is-this is just, like, the sad truth of it. So when the studio realized that we’d all collectively stepped in-in a huge mess, you know, th-they put the ball in our court and said, “What do you want to do?” And we said, “We would love to be able to confirm on-screen a-and make it very explicit and, and also play to the fact that Shiro was able to find happiness and was able to sort of find that balance that, that even in the Adam and Shiro, uh, storyline he wasn’t able to kind of find.” So that’s how we, that’s how we arrived there, I think, to if we were to introduce Adam, it would have left… I don’t know. I’m thinking of it purely from a story perspective, like, we would’ve had to have an epilogue that almost ran an entire episode long to, sort of, see him survive the wreckage and then… I don’t know. I-I-I don’t know. I-It wasn’t, it wasn’t something that came to our heads. So to answer your question: no, we didn’t really think about it because in our brains Adam was-was gone.

LM: Yeah, and to answer your question, Marc, it--this was never directly featured in the show, but our-our kind of personal logic when we were making out that scene of Allura making the sacrifice and kind of rebirthing some of these planets. Our-our thought was she was able to, through, through her actions, give life back to any planets that had been taken, kinda, before their time. To give back to that land, that quintessence-kind of-formed landmasses. And so any planet that had, kind of, died because it lasted its life cycle didn’t come back, but Daibazaal met a premature death. Altea did, even Olkarion. Like those planets would come back, but we kind of drew the line at souls. She couldn’t necessarily bring back a lost soul. That just seemed a little too god-like for us.

MM: So did that include any planet that had its quintessence removed by the Komar?

LM: That includes the moose planet!

MM: Oh, wow!

JDS: Moose planet makes a comeback.

MM: Okay.

JDS: But none of that is to take away from, sort of, like, you know, the seriousness of-of the question that you asked, Donya, because you know, look even, even in crafting that epilogue, like, i-it was done at the end, it was done as an--as an appeal to this amazing fandom that we garnered over the course of the series that we knew was there from-from, especially from working on Korra, but we just didn’t know it was going to be--and I think the studio definitely didn’t know it was gonna be--so prominent. So, we wish, believe me, had our original story, sort of, been told the way we had initially, you know, conceived it with Adam, and he wasn’t shown dying in a-in a battle, you know. We’ve discussed where we could’ve taken that story, you know, with like Veronica returning with the rebels and then Adam being part of that and there being a reunion, but like, it’s like weirdly armchair-quarterbacking something. Some of that that never took place.

MM: Mm-hm.

JDS: So it’s tough for us to kind of reconcile those two things. There’s a ton we would’ve done differently had we been given the opportunity, but we tried to make the most of the opportunities that were given to us. And that’s kind of where we landed on that.

MM: I know you guys probably haven’t listened to our, our episodes, our podcasts, right?

LM: Um, not all of them.

MM: Okay.

JDS: Yeah. I definitely listened to some of the key ones.

LM: I’ve been off the grid for a little bit for the past few months, so, uh--

JDS: Yeah, we disappeared.

MM: Okay.

LM: Been trying to get some, uh, some house, house stuff done, so my internet has been on and off.

MM: Alright. In response to what happened with Allura, I had an idea that there was a concept that was established at the beginning of Beast King GoLion that there was this goddess or queen of the universe and I was thinking, you know, that Allura had made this sacrifice, had brought back all the realities, had brought back Daibazaal and Altea, and basically saved the universe. This sort of makes her, you know, on a new realm. She is sort of the keeper of the stars, the caretaker over all realities. And it seems like a role she would’ve assumed at the end there, especially since we saw the lions going to her silhouette. She basically risked everything to bring back all those realities. I was just wondering, when she said goodbye to Lance and he got those Altean markings, is it possible that she left a piece of herself on Lance so that if Voltron ever needed to return, she could return as well through leaving, like, a horcrux of herself on Lance?

JDS: Uh, I mean, horcrux is the first I--I don’t even know what that means.

LM: That’s a Harry Potter thing.

JDS: Oh. Okay. Sure.

MM: It’s that Harry Potter thing where Voldemort had split himself up into seven different objects and as long as at least one of those objects was still intact with the horcrux, then he could come back.

JDS: Cool.

LM: I like all of that, and I’m gonna say you need to pitch it to whoever makes the next Voltron.

JDS: Yeah. I think the big thing was that, was we were just trying to leave, you know, with, with as much as we wanted the sacrifice to resonate in terms of what it means to give yourself to a cause, I think that post-credit scene was very much that, was the door being left open to, you know, the symbols glowing, to Lance feeling a sense that Allura was out there, to the lions going out.

LM: That she was somehow speaking to him through the lions.

JDS: Yeah.

LM: And then the lions leaving to, you know, whatever reason. If it’s told them their job is done or if it’s to go do something else, and then ultimately we see them heading toward that Allura-shaped nebula. Like, I always kinda had the story in my head was that her quinessence was ultimately kind of reforming and coming back together and we don’t know how long it’ll take, but one day, ideally, Allura would be reborn and the lions would be there to pick her up.

JDS: And I’m gonna pitch this here for the first time.

LM: Okay.

MM: Okay.

JDS: The lions go to the nebula, they merge with the nebula, become a sort of vision-like Allura deity being that comes back and we’ve got a mega-robot Allura godlike supercomputer--

LM: Yeah, and then she is Space Angel, which I think is what you were trying to say.

JDS: Exactly, she becomes Space Angel.

MM: Okay. You guys also mentioned that you pitched an ending that might’ve included some of the main characters being killed off.

JDS: All of them.

MM: Yeah.

LM: Well, yeah, well, just in, you know, in that, uh, very Voltron-like teamwork scenario, we always liked that idea of that ultimately Voltron the robot was a weapon and that it was a very powerful weapon and that all--so much of this war was basically came about because of that weapon and Zarkon’s, you know, looking for that weapon, he wants this power back. And the idea of if they take that weapon off the table will the universe be a better place? And so in ultimately having to make the sacrifice that they would have to make, they would also be, you know, taking that weapon off the table. And honestly, like, in doing that, when you have all of the characters kind of exit at the same time, it just kind of leaves the door open for anyone with an imagination out there to immediately write them all right back into the story at any point if they just want to boink ‘em out of, you know, wherever it is we sent them.

JDS: Yeah, I’m thinking of Infinity War. Uh, but you know, I’m also--it, it’s funny, like as we talk about this stuff, and we sort of, like, make comments off the cuff and say, like, “Yeah at one point they were all gonna die,” that’s not to, like, take any of the import of what that means to, like, a fan watching it or people who’ve invested their time in the show. Literally, like, when we’re in the writer’s room, everything is on the table. Um, so we-we-we talk about, like, all options.

LM: Yeah.

MM: So there was, was there a happy ending option?

JDS: That, that was something--I mean I’m sure there was an option where it was like everybody lived and everything was happy a-and Lance and Allura had a baby, or, you know, whatever. We wanted to make a show that ultimately demonstrates that there are consequences. As fantastical as the show gets, as crazy as the show gets, that there are consequences and that sacrifice can be meaningful. So, I don’t know about you guys, but like, I know I’ve lost people that are very important to me in my life. The lessons they taught me live on through me and live on through my, my child now, like I pass those lessons onto my child. That’s an important message, you know, and that’s an important concept for people, I think--especially kids--t-to understand. It stinks to lose somebody, but it’s important to honor their memories.

MM: You solidified that pretty much in “Day 47”. One of your storyboard directors from Studio Mir, Seok Jin Jang, you paid tribute to him in “Day 47”. That was really cool.

LM: Yeah, yeah, we lost Seok Jin during the production, um, it was amazing, he actually got to work on every episode up until the very end and it was incredibly unfortunate that shortly after, you know, he finished storyboarding that last episode he was taken from us. And it-it affected us all pretty badly, and the directors specifically--because they had worked so closely with him--and he was just such a shining light of happiness and positivity. He was so unbelievably talented, that when we lost him we just felt like we’d-we’d lost something that we were never going to get back, and that, you know, the world had kind of been robbed of this amazing human being, but, you know, we don’t get to, to write that story, that’s life.

MM: Mm-hm.

LM: And so we could only do what we could do, which was move forward and hopefully pay him some sort of tribute and know that he lives on through the amazing, you know, work that he put into this show.

JDS: And I mean, he really did. Some of, some of the key moments that you remember from the show are directly, you know, his doing and his point of view on how the story would unfold visually.

MM: Mm-hm.

JDS: And honestly, his memory, like, it-it’s cliche to say it, but his memory, you know, can live on through the art because he affected the show and everybody who worked on it so positively.

MM: Right.

GT: That’s very cool. Obviously Voltron: Legendary Defender is very character-focused, moreso, I think, than the prior shows, certainly the original, where, you know, they always form Voltron, they always slash up the robeast, they win, end of story. It was very common. Uh, in this show, where we’re focusing very heavily on individual characters and the bonds that each Paladin has with his or her lion, was it hard to write scenes with Voltron itself, the robot?

LM: Well, yeah, I think you can see he-he didn’t come out unless we really needed him. Like, and he really only came out to kind of, like, fight things. Because ultimately, the robot hims--I say “himself” but it’s a robot--doesn’t have a personality, so there’s not really, like, character stuff to get from that robot. And, you know, it’s all about the pilots that are inside of it. And so, you know, we can definitely, like we know how to handle, like, those characters and to do those fight scenes inside of Voltron with those characters, but, but if we were just to make a show about a robot kinda running around, it, I think we would--it would be a struggle.

JDS: Yeah. And he’s, you know--ultimately he became the symbol of teamwork and so we-we tried to, like, set Voltron up as a symbol for the universe to kind of rally around. But yeah, I mean, you know. I wouldn’t say it’s tough, it’s just, it wasn’t--it didn’t become our fallback every single episode. We were more trying to tell, you know, character pieces. But, that’s also, y-you know, a path that can potentially get a bit divergent from the intent of, you know, where the show was originally being marketed towards.

GT: Oh, I see. Yeah, I was just, I was just curious because obviously, you know, you’ve got all these characters with all these character arcs, the main story arc, and all these different threads, and then, I-I mean in tha--in the context of that, I mean I’ve loved Voltron obviously since the original and all that, so you know, for me to say, you know, this sounds kind of silly, but i-in the context of the show being as deep as it often was, I just wonder if it felt sometimes like, “Oh, yeah, we better form the robot now.” [laughter] As a writer, you know what I mean?

JDS: There’s that, there’s other stuff that, you know, sadly as we were dealing with-with fallout from, like, disappointed fans over, you know, certain storylines not coming to pass, o-or things not happening, uh, from a character perspective the way they would want. Sometimes things like, you know, Voltron and the Atlas merging got totally lost in the noise of that and we--I will scream to the heavens to this day that, like, that was awesome. Like, they became a super-robot, like, come on people! Let’s give recognition to super-mega-ultra--

LM: Z-zenith, I mean, you haven’t used “zenith”.

JDS: Zenithtron. Yeah.

LM: But, uh, yeah, I mean we, we--at our hearts, they were more ships than they were characters, but we take great pride in our ships. We love the castle, we love the Atlas, and we love Voltron and the lions. The lions became, we kind of tried to make them into slightly more character-like with their abilities and--

JDS: Their personalities, yeah.

LM: --yeah, have personalities, but that was something that was-wasn’t, you know, in every other version of the show. That was something that we kind of threw in there for our show. And, uh, but we always try to respect it and love our ships as much as we could because we actually appreciate that stuff, too. We appreciate good design and interesting things and, like, you know, like, I frickin’ love the SDF-1 with all my heart.

GT: Oh, yeah.

LM: So, uh, you know, it-it definitely doesn’t talk and definitely doesn’t have a personality, but I appreciate whenever that ship is on the screen.

JDS: And it’s a symbol, it’s a strong symbol.

LM: Mm-hm.

GT: Mm, yeah. And I am totally enamored with the Castle of Lions. I love, love the original the original design, and I think I told Christine Bian when she was on the show that the Legendary Defender version is the only version since the original that I’ve absolutely fallen in love with. It’s just a gorgeous design.

JDS: Aw, that’s awesome.

LM: That’s amazing.

MM: I wish we could’ve had a Castle of Lions toy! [laughter]

LM: Yeah!

GT: Yeah.

[laughter]

GT: Back to consumer products. Give me a spaceship toy!

LM: Let’s get some LEGO Ideas people on that! But, uh, but yeah, there was always a concern, I think, in the consumer products side of like, how, how the scales would never match. You would have to make the Castle the size of a small building to make it actually to scale. But we’re not super sticklers on scale, I would gladly just had a really cool light-up, frickin’ sound-making Castle of Lions.

JDS: Just make it a ship. It’s a ship. It’s like a Star Destroyer. There are Star Destroyer toys out there.

LM: Yep.

MM: Yeah. That there are.

GT: Sure.

MM: Well, I’m curious about the release schedule of the different seasons. I mean, certainly the first 26 episodes came out 13 and 13, then the next 26 episodes came out in 6 and 7 episode batches, and then Netflix went back to 13. Do you know any reason why the, you know, the first change went to the smaller seasons and then why things went back to 13?

JDS: I don’t think we know the exact reasons other than, you know, it’s sort of emerging technology, streaming, especially at the time when we were still making the show, a-and and Netflix was trying to figure out who the audience actually was and all that. They were, they were just trying to play with different models, so…

LM: Yeah, a-and a lot of it’s just kinda trial and error and experimentation. I think they’d released some 13 episode seasons and I remember specifically them saying they wanted, kind of, they wanted, I think, more awareness of Voltron year-round, so if they could release episodes. There was even one-one pitch that we kind of chuckle about where they were like, “What if we release one episode every two weeks?” And we were just like, “That’s just like being on TV! What are we doing?”

JDS: Yeah, that’s just network TV, man!

LM: Like, this is streaming! The whole point is you can, like, release a batch. So, you know, they played around with it, it wasn’t ever anything that affected our production schedule. We were always just making these shows at a steady clip, and so we’d get a lot of questions about that, about, you know, “How did it affect production?” It never did. It was really just a matter of when they, kind of, chose to upload them to Netflix and in what numbers.

JDS: Yeah, it didn’t affect the production, but it affected us having to then choose, “Okay, well this feels kind of like a natural break time,” or “this feels kind of tent-poley” where you could leave on this moment, but they weren’t always the natural places we intended for.

LM: Yeah.

GT: Okay, that makes sense.

JDS: Yeah. But they-they’re figuring it out, man. I mean--

LM: Yeah. Clearly they figured something out, ‘cuz then they put us back to 13, so what’s up.

MM: Yeah.

[laughter]

MM: One thing I wanted to ask before you guys go is that there’s this petition out there that was signed by, like, over 30,000 people.

GT: Jesus.

MM: Uh, asking if there was going to be a-an alternate version of season 8. Is there such a thing?

LM: No.

JDS: No.

MM: Okay.

LM: Sorry, guys, we don’t have that kind of time or money.

JDS: Yeah.

MM: Right.

JDS: And you know, I mean, look. We made the best show that we could make under the circumstances given and, um, to serve an alternate ending, I’m guessing it would be to address, uh, Allura’s sacrifice and--

LM: Or Shiro.

JDS: --Shiro, or maybe, yeah, or maybe there’s-there was, like, the thing that you pitched, Marc, where maybe Allura undoes everything and everything resets. Er, I-I don’t know exactly what it would be. We heard all manner of--and again, Lauren and I tried to stay off of social media just-just to not deal with anything negative that was coming our way--like, we obviously heard people’s concerns, and took that very seriously, but we heard some conspiracy theories that there was an alternate cut and there was this, that, or the other. And I hate to burst any bubbles and this will probably only lend to more conspiracy theories, but there is no alternate cut to Voltron.

GT: That’s okay.

MM: There’s basically a Voltron version of the Kobayashi Maru, it’s-it’s an unwinnable scenario.

LM: Uh, pretty much. That’s pretty--we made the show that we believed in to the best of our ability, and you know--

JDS: And within the parameters given.

LM: --you can like it, you can not like it. And-and that’s it.

JDS: And that’s perfectly fine. There’s-there’s--that’s totally fine. Everybody can still get along in the world, and, you know. It’s all, it’s all good. We-w-we, we did what we could.

MM: We’ve been reviewing season 8 episodes. So in each of these podcasts we’re doing, we’re reviewing season 8 episodes and we’re finding that a lot more people, you know, like revisiting these episodes with us and some people, you know, talk about some things that-that maybe they didn’t agree with, but overall it seems like when you take it episode by episode, things are a little bit better than they had originally perceived.

LM: I mean that’s good to hear. I would hate for, like, one moment that someone disagrees with to, you know, I guess put a negative wash on everything because ultimately a lot of people worked really hard and put an awful lot of love into this show.

MM: Yes they did.

LM: I mean, that’s just kind of how--I mean that’s how we do it. We work hard, we try to make the best shows we can--that’s all we can do--and then we put them out for people to, to love or hate and to judge as they see fit. And that-that is up to them, and they are allowed to do it. But that’s kind of, that’s kind of where it stops.

MM: Yep. I gotta tell ya, out of all the Voltron versions, I like Voltron: Legendary Defender the best, so...

LM: Oh, that is high praise! Thank you very much!

JDS: Coming from an expert such as yourself.

MM: It’s based on my ideas that, uh, if I was to pitch another Voltron show I really would work off of Voltron: Legendary Defender’s characters because you built such an incredible universe, all these worlds, all these different, uh, types of, you know, alien races, and everything. Just an amazing thing, the Voltron Coalition, the Galra… Just… it’s very deep, very rich, and, uh, you know, thank you to y-your character designer, y-your props and background supervisors, and your color supervisors, your special effects and your sound people, and your music people, and all of your animators, and it’s just, wow. Incredible job.

JDS: Yeah. I mean, everybody came together to do, uh, I think something-something that hopefully, like, can-can be looked on in-in some years and people can-can still find appreciation and, and we’re just happy to have been a part of an awesome crew.

MM: Oh, definitely.

GT: Yeah, I want to second, I-I’m, I totally love Voltron: Legendary Defender, I mean I, you know for a-anyone to say they liked absolutely every aspect of any show, I can’t imagine that ever happening with any show. But I just love the show, it was, uh, i-it was very obviously made with a lot of love, a lot of talent, a lot of skill, and a lot of this found-family that we see in the show, in the fiction itself. So thank you both, and to everyone who worked with you bringing this show around, it’s just, it’s been a lot of fun.

LM: Awesome.

JDS: We appreciate it, yup. And you guys were totally paid to say that, so right back atcha.

[laughter]

GT: Oh yeah.

MM: Yeah, I don’t think people realize we don’t get paid for anything.

JDS: Yeah.

[laughter]

LM: Yeah.

GT: Donya, did you have anything you wanted to say?

DA: I mean I’ll just reiterate--

JDS: A-and Donya, if you want to end on a question, too, that’s fine as well, like--

DA: That’s okay, um, I mean I can always follow up with you on, like, anything, I feel like.

JDS: Alright.

DA: I don’t want to keep you too late. Um… [laughter] And you know how I get when I start asking questions.

JDS: Sure, rabbit hole.

DA: Yeah, basically. But yeah no, I do want to reiterate that because covering Voltron, and obviously I got on-board, like, on season 2 because I think when season 1 came out, I, I was, like, caught up in some stuff and I was away and basically didn’t pick up immediately, but it really has been almost a life-changing experience for me, as well. And I think without that, and without, like, everything that came with it, like I’d be in a really different place, I think, than I am right now. So it has been, like, such a huge part of my life for, like, the last few years and especially, like, quite formative in terms of, like, where I was because, like, I turned 30 as like it was coming to an end, or close to an end, and it just, like coincided with, like, this weird switch and change in my life, as well, and there are pieces I’ve written, like coinciding with the show that had, like, hit really emotional personal beats that are, like, that’s always going to be a part of my life now, so it’s just… yeah. I guess, just thank you for that because without it, I think the last two years of my life would have been very different. And there are people that I would’ve never met without it, like, you know, Marc and Greg included, you know--

GT: We love you, Donya, you are the best.

MM: Yeah.

DA: Yeah, I love you, too. Um, you know, there are people that I reconnected with in my life, friendships that I reforged that had sort of come back around because our paths crossed again because of Voltron. So, like, in, like, big ways and in little ways, like, it’s like, really altered, like, the course of my life in some ways. So it’s, uh, I’m always going to be very, very thankful to that and to, like, everything that you’ve done over the course of the show as well with, like, being so gracious with your time and everything with, like, when-when the show was still in development and, you know, talking to me, a-and even talking to Marc and Greg as well and everyone involved in covering the show, like, you gave so much of your time, even just outside of the production of the show just to talk through everything, so, yeah, thank you.

JDS: We appreciate you guys, and again, like, the show helps bring people together or has helped bring people together or forged new friendships, that’s like, the best case scenario for us.

LM: Absolutely.

JDS: If it’s made people feel good, if it’s made them learn things about themselves, then that’s all we can ask for, like, you know. Uh, that’s, like, the best reward.

LM: It really is, and on a completely, like, completely selfish note: I just like that you let us kind of talk about the stuff that goes into making the show, guys. I mean I know I’m a person who enjoys listening to the commentaries and listening to, like, the behind-the-scenes stuff, and so for any of the people out there that really enjoy that, you guys have-have gone out of your way to bring people who are involved in this show on and ask them questions about that and get some of that knowledge out there. A-and some of that stuff is just interesting to people.

MM: Yes.

JDS: And you guys do it because you love it.

MM: Yes we do.

JDS: And that, I think, is, is another thing that people really have to, like, appreciate. It’s done out of love because like you said, you guys aren’t seeing any--

LM: You don’t get any kickbacks.

MM: Nope.

JDS: Yeah, you’re not getting kickback.

DA: Yeah.

JDS: Uh, but it’s, uh, you know, without you guys a show like this could easily go unnoticed. But you guys, you know, you talk about it. You, you get people thinking about things, so, we appreciate ya.

GT: Thank you.

MM: You have no idea just how many people have been inspired to be better people as a result of this show. Th-there’s, you know, tons of artists who we spotlight that say they became better artists as a result of the inspiration of doing Voltron fanart. Cosplayers who became better cosplayers as a result of doing Voltron cosplay. Writers, you know, fanfiction writers and other types of writers that had, you know, gotten better at their craft as a result of working on Voltron fanfiction or something like that. So in many, many ways you have inspired people to be better and to come together in a way that they’ve never come together before.

JDS: That’s amazing. That’s… amazing. That’s, uh, something that we can take with us to the end, um, and, that we will, we’ll, you know. You don’t realize it sometimes when you’re in the thick of it, when you’re in the middle of it, but when you get a little perspective on things and you, sort of, take the long view, this is definitely a pillar of, uh, not only our careers, but, uh, of our lives and we can, you know, have an appreciation for everything you guys did and everything the fandom did, and everything the studio and our coworkers, yeah our crew, did. That, that will stand the test of time.

MM: Yeah. So thank you.

JDS: Thank you guys.

LM: Thank you.

GT: Thank you both so much.

MM: And can we ask you to do it just one more time?

JDS: Sure.

LM: [laughter] For sure. Hey, this is Lauren Montgomery.

JDS: Hey, this is Joaquim Dos Santos.

LM: And you’re listening to--

JDS and LM: Let’s Voltron!

[outro music]

#dragon's ramblings #vld #voltron legendary defender #let's voltron #jds #lm #executive meddling #strafe #freevlds8 #TeamPurpleLion

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captainharunanase · 6 years

Text

Sigh...

I had Allurance for a moment only for vld to make it a ghost ship with Lance now forever pining after Allura's death.

Shiro was finally able to be the "White Paladin" of the team but he barely interacted with them or even looked at Keith.

Hunk and Pidge had amazing screentime but Matt and a few others got sidelined and forgotten.

And Keith? He apparently wasn't even in Shiro's "wedding" with that rando--Curtis--even though he pretty much has been implying since s1 that Shiro is his family and his guiding light so therefore someone he would always be there for especially in his ups and downs of life.

Sheith held on all this time only to act like coworkers in the finale but not anything more like they have forgotten how to be best friends until it was convenient for the plot.

And Allura? The girl who lost everything? She ended up being almost like Honerva--sacrificing everything that is her to help her new family get their happy endings even though she could never attain hers.

I loved the fighting, the mecha transformations, the development of the MFEs, the plot, and the final showdown against Haggar but--

--To give Lance and Allura happiness and hint on giving her a new belonging only to stripe it away as a "price" all while "subtlety" diminishing Keith and Shiro's importance to each other to make their disjointed individual endings "make sense" outside of their s1-s7 buildup and somehow mesh both ships to fail in the end as a "this was the only way to save the universe" ploy-----

--Despite the damn show constantly paralleling the lesson on how Zaggar's love turned to a twisted hate that destroyed the universe and it was up to literally Allurance and even Sheith's love that actually saved the galaxy throughout the series--

----Only to rip both ships off as a sacrifice to satisfy the plot just enough to "justify" their demise as a means to an end. That metaphorical 'smoking gun' we expected to go off at the end? Over Allurance and Sheith? Was nothing but an illusion and wasn't even loaded to begin with apparently.

It is aggravating and disappointing.

I really loved this whole season but that last episode completely went against it's own theme.

They wouldn't have let Allura sake herself let alone let her do it alone--even with Honerva.

Lance wouldn't have even accepted the thought of Allura with that dark entity in her for long or even allow her to die or even worse be forced to love her ghost for the rest of his human life.

Allura wouldn't have wanted Lance to pine after her and not move on from her. She wouldn't have asked that of him by giving him her marks as a way of keeping a part of her quintessence in him.

Keith wouldn't just estrange himself from the one person that made up his whole universe especially after his oath to Shiro of always being there. He, at least, should have been the best man in the wedding if he was the selfless type to watch the canonical love of his life get with someone else.

And Shiro? He wouldn't have remained sidelined til the very end when they only needed him for his Atlas to only help boost Voltron and he clearly, while became a pseudo-Paladin for a moment, did not make any direct change or impact on the 6-man team. He especially should have had a direct moment of any form of romantic attraction with someone in the show and not as a damn fucking footnote of a "One Year Later" offscreen and unwritten romance with a character we didn't even know the name of at first nor should Shiro's final arc be seen as a "oh btw he got married and retired? Idk we keeping it vague so we give you lgbt rep!"

Despite the clearly, already written in the show, deeper bond he has had with Keith since even before s1 and that now makes his supposed bond with Keith a moot point and now unnecessary since it did not deliver in any way or reach a pinnacle in the climax nor did it have any proper closure to even indicate whether it could have or couldn't have been in the first place.

I have a lot of amazing points I would have shared earlier if I hadn't watched the last episode but that last scene completely turned the whole s8 around it's own head and practically told it to go fuck itself.

They try to amend it with a cheap superficial "Praise Allura Day" and despite a few of the team indeed having some form of ending--the main cast which consists of Keith, Shiro, Allura and yes Lance too by his association with her as her boyfriend--was literally given the short end of the stick.

Keith was sidelined and not allowed to act but be an observer at the end with none of his usual prowess, Lance now forever will chase after Allura's ghost and be haunted by her, Allura, herself, died for literally no reason than to right Honerva and Zarkon's wrongs, and Shiro wasn't allowed to even be a part of his paladin family and only there to remind people--at the last 5 seconds--that he's gay and apparently not single anymore with literally a no-name guy (actually it's Curtis but I had to look that shit up) that looked too much like Adam for my liking and while completely disregarding everything he did for Keith and vise versa.

Man that last episode is like Bleach's last chapter.

A completely different almost rewritten reality from the entire series itself. It overturned all the canonization of seven seasons under one episode.

And whether it was DreamWorks or JDS & LM's doing is irrelevant.

While it was an incredibly impactful season it did it with a fucking high cost.

Not about the ships per say--except Allurance for why make it happen only to destroy them immediately later?--but rather the complete turn arounds it had to do to try and justify why they made it that way.

That is what's so aggravating and disappointing.

Not the plot.

But the writing standpoint of trying to explain plotpoint A to upside down B. In a way, they became Haggar themselves and rewrote B and inverted it to make no sense whatsoever but pretend that it was "the only way" for it to end.

I expected an open ending for Sheith or actual development of Keith with Acxa and Shiro with Curtis if need be--and it had to be extremely good--but they couldn't even do that right.

And Allurance? They planned for Lance and Allura since the beginning but apparently the price Lance had to pay for his happy ending was her life out of the blue and at the last second.

And that hurts me.

This isn't as bad as Bleach's notorious ending but this is a definite close second at how they completely turned things around to try and make the ships happen just so they can fail while preaching how the theme of vld is found family and true love saving the universe.

Too bad the main trio--plus Lance now too--weren't allowed to partake in that lesson or in true happiness.

I still love Allurance and I will always love Sheith.

But what they did to Allura and Shiro completely ruined both Lance and Keith's endings.

And that breaks my heart to see it as the price they paid for daring to love them and trying to make them happy.

Lance can't truly be happy now since he can't move on and let Allura go or rather he won't to keep her memory alive in him.

And Keith didn't even get to watch the man he loved get with someone else and is now estranged from his best friend he swore he loved so much he literally was willing to die with Shiro and allow the universe to pay for it.

And what of Pidge and Hunk? We know what they accomplished but what about their personal lives? Is Hunk with Shay? Is Pidge still single? Is Matt still with his girlfriend? What of Acxa and the others? It is so vague with no clear answer and that is also disheartening.

Ah, sorry for my ramble. I stayed up to watch it from 3am and it's now almost 9am as I finish typing this jumbled vent post.

I'm both happy it's over and saddened it ended that way. While I didn't expect Sheith to happen I never imagined it like this and while I hoped for Allurance I didn't want them to pay the price for loving each other to the point of ending them.

I'm sad but I won't take it out on the writers--idk if I trust them at the moment--but I am still grateful they gave me Shiro and so many other characters to love.

I just hope they understand what they did and how much they disappointed nearly everyone with this "twist" ending.

Imma go sleep now I still have a lot to process.

I thought we'd get to see them all get happy endings but apparently only half of them did.

And last but not least no one suffered more than Coran when he found out--I feel so broken for him the most since he couldn't keep the promise to King Alfor to keep Allura safe--which is what his whole point in life was and what defined him as both a mentor and father-uncle figure to Allura and his new family.

And I think that's the one that hurts the most.

Okay I'm tired and sleepy so I'll be sure to interact with yall later for better analysis of s8 when I'm in a better state of mind.

Peace out yall.

Edit: Keith apparently IS in the wedding but he’s literally behind Shiro the whole time that it took me a few rewinds to see his ponytail and slight show of his profile. Geez way to hide him from the camera angle DW it almost made it look like he wasn’t even there if you didn’t pay attention behind Shiro and gave us the impression he wasn't there to begin with.

#voltron #sheith #legitallurance #spoilers #long post #zakksu post

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sol1056 · 6 years

Text

let’s just leave this here

so let’s see how quickly I can get through a bunch of these, just so they don’t languish for the next month... here we go. behind the cut: why the opening never changed, why DW is deploying Josh again, a few about Iverson & Hedrick, is a reboot possible, staying in fandom vs leaving... and some others in the same vein.

why did they keep the same opening for all of vld seasons, considering the line-up was never supposed to come back to the original from s3?

Every indication is that originally, the team would return to the original lineup. Keeping the opening was probably meant to remind audiences of that inevitability. Or you could believe LM, who said the opening cost 20K to make, and thus was too expensive to do more than once. She’d rather spend that money on a vacation.

So I've heard that Josh Keaton is doing damage control for S8. Do you think Dreamworks sent him in because they know that he's the one guy that no one can get mad at? After what some of the fans have done to him this past year [...] I’m amazed that he's willing to stick around and try to make his fans happy for as long as he can. I can see why people say "We don't deserve him."

Josh has somehow managed that sweet spot between charming the fandom and gaining its trust. Doesn’t hurt that he’s got the chops, voice-wise, to take written dross (no, really, some of those lines are horribly clunky) and spin it into gold. More than anything else, he comes across as genuine, and that adds a certain credibility to his words.

But... Josh doesn’t really have a choice. Playing Shiro is what catapulted Josh upwards, and the last thing he can afford to do is piss off DW by refusing to play ball. He’d only be damaging himself (and his reputation among potential employers) if he didn’t snap to attention when called. Plus, I think he really does sincerely love the character, but it’s got to be a tough spot for him right now.

When you get down to it, the only one on VLD’s (former) staff who seems to believe Shiro belongs in the story and should be respected as part of the story... is Josh. Who else can Shiro’s fans look to, if Josh stops speaking?

So, yeah, Josh is it. And I bet he knows that, and knows it’s just part of signing up for such a major role. This is part of his job.

So I came across a pic of Mitch Iverson from SDCC 2018 where he and Tim Hedrick weren't in the panel ... and [Iverson] was wearing a SHIRO BLACK PALADIN top ... while the EPs & Hamilton were in the panel promoting S7, Iverson supported Hedrick & his story, and Shiro.

Hedrick was actively involved in every script as the story editor, and reportedly conceived of Shiro as an astronaut returning after his capture by aliens. Iverson got his start thanks to Hedrick, thus it makes sense that Iverson would be simpatico with Hedrick’s vision of the story.

On top of that, by SDCC Iverson already had his next gig lined up. He continued to write for VLD, so he had to be subtle... but a t-shirt was a good way to make his sentiments clear. Can’t blame the guy, seeing he probably knew what was coming and chose a quiet protest of his own.

As an American, how would you take it if someone, that is, Iverson, called himself a redneck? From what I know thats derogatory term & for people not exactly inclusive & supportive of minorities. He also retweeted an art of Allura with a quote: ‘Laters’, which I found in really poor taste...

Redneck is another slur adopted by the in-group. My guess is that if you called Iverson a redneck to his face, he’d be offended. But if you introduced yourself as a redneck, and then called him one, it’d be different. And yes, as a term, redneck has a complex history, and it changes subtly in terms of how each generation defines/uses it.

As for retweeting things in poor taste... eh, most people don’t have any training in social media. Jokes are the hardest; it’s so easy for them to go so wrong. Until VLD, I’d bet Iverson was lucky to have a few hundred followers. How many follow him now? It takes time to find your footing in striking the right balance of humor and dignity.

Sometimes the best course is to ignore the stumble. They’ll either learn, or they won’t. Either way, it’s their problem, not ours.

Will Tim Hedrick be allowed to continue the voltron universe the way he planned it?

I doubt it. He’s got a new project. If you’re now an EP finally getting your name at the top, would you really want to go back and fix someone else’s story? Sometimes it’s just better to leave it behind, and make sure the next thing you do is something you can have pride in.

...why do you keep saying the last episode Tim Hedrick wrote was The Feud? A lot of people keep repeating it, like it was his last 'fuck you' to the showrunners. But official sources all say 'The Journey Within' was his last episode.

All we can say for certain was that tJW is the last Hedrick episode broadcast. That doesn’t mean it was the last one written.

Here’s why a lot of us peg tF as Hedrick’s last written episode: the story editor credit. Hedrick's the sole story editor on all his other episodes; tF is the only one in which both Hedrick and Hamilton share credit. The simplest explanation is this episode was edited in that window during which Hedrick had one foot out the door, and Hamilton had one foot in. iow, Hedrick put it into the queue, edited half, and moved on. Ergo, last written.

I can’t believe how they just managed to anger literally everyone no matter your favorite character or ship.

I recall a quote from early on, where LM said they had a feeling they couldn’t please everyone. The problem (which I noted at the time, and has remained true) is that the answer isn’t to just piss off everyone.

It’s to figure out who you want your audience to be, and to write the best damn story you can for that particular audience. If you end up with a story only old-timer DotU fans love, and kids are lukewarm about, fine. If the reverse is true, fine. You can’t please everyone, especially in a reboot/remake. So you pick your battles, and write your story accordingly.

Looking around social media, most people I'm seeing are either rightfully upset, or they're hyperfocusing on the one single scene they liked because they just don't have the energy to deal with the show's bullshit right now. How can they fuck up the last season so badly that it seems like the general reaction is disappointment and denial?

I think there’s a common cause for the fandom reactions: exhaustion.

In American broadcast television, a 26-episode season runs from September to May, then a summertime lull, during which people digest and discuss. Binge-watching is changing this, but it seems one thing hasn’t changed: no matter how fast we watch a show, we still require processing time.

What did we get? A half-season, two months’ break, another half-season, two months’ break, a full season, three months’ break, and a final full season. If every season had provoked a spike equal to S1/S2, we might’ve been begging DW by June to just freaking chill. Fandom had barely begun to process one season and a new one was already landing on our heads.

On top of that, S3-S6 weren’t exactly walks in the part, post-release. In terms of controversy, S7 dwarfed them all. That made an awful lot of people (across the entire spectrum, from almost every sub-group in the fandom) disengage. Those who remained dialed back on their expectations (”as long as X happens, that’s all that matters”), or they hung in there, insistent it would turn out alright.

So either you’re exhausted from not being able to fully disengage with the final season still in the wings, you’re exhausted from convincing yourself this one specific thing would be enough, or you’re exhausted from defending what turned out to be indefensible.

Frankly, disappointment and denial is a fairly soft landing, compared to what might’ve been. But any way you cut it, the fandom’s worn the hell out.

Do you think LM and JDS are gonna address this or are they just going to ignore the complaints, wash their hands and move on?

They don’t need to do anything. They don’t work for DW anymore. If someone has to address the complaints, it’d be DW or DW’s chosen spokesperson. I guess you could call that washing their hands, but the simple fact is they’re not on the payroll. They’re not responsible for VLD anymore.

do you think it's possible for dreamworks to rewrite season 8? i've never heard of a show doing that before and i'm afraid that we'll be stuck with what we got, but damn, i really hope that we will get to see the characters get the endings they deserve, if nothing else.

I’m not sure why anyone would bother. S7 was rife with problems; S3-S6 meandered back and forth. If I were to do a soft in-series reboot, I’d go back to the end of S2. That’s the clearest break, story-wise.

But if you’re going backwards 50+ episodes to the 26th, just keep going and start over. More to the point: not a lot of creators would sign on to inherit problems not of their own making. Same reason new directors on a property will want to rework the script in some way (if not start over from scratch).

Do you think this is truly the end of Voltron: Legendary Defender? I know that a lot of the cast and crew wanted to continue on with a sequel, and there's so many possibilities and things they can do in that universe, not to mention that Voltron is (or rather, was) a money bank...

Your guess is as good as mine, really. Hopefully we’ll get at least hints when the SACanime panel rolls around in early January.

There's a change petition for the "original s8" to be released ... [people] believe that LM and JDS are NOT the ones who ruined the last two seasons and that it was "exec meddling." Like, no, sorry, exec meddling appears to be what made it good in the beginning.

If we consider Yoo an exec by virtue of being CEO of Studio Mir, then I kinda wish he’d meddled a bit more.

...I'm wondering if the original version exists, completed. In one post, you said DW picked Tim over L/J so surely that got animated? What do you think? Be real. I don't want to get my hopes high thinking there's some buried treasure out there to find.

Ah, no, sorry, I wasn’t speaking in the sense of VLD but in the overall corporate sense. Here’s how the scenario often plays out: manager A and employee B do not get along. The longer they clash, the greater the chance A will find an excuse to fire B. The project is literally not big enough for the both of them.

B could resign, quit, or do a preemptive strike: go over A’s head and ask for help. If B leaves the company shortly after, it means the higher-up said: “I’ve heard A’s side, and I think A is right.” The exec might offer a good reference, or blame it on a no-fault bad fit. Doesn’t matter; the exec’s chosen A’s side.

Now, consider what actually happened: B gets transferred off the project, and gets a major promotion -- basically up to the same level as B’s former manager. Either B has some of the most amazing dirt ever, is phenomenally good at twisting reality to seem like the wronged party... or the higher-up reviewed the situation and decided that of the two, B was the one worth keeping.

Having decided that, the exec made an offer B couldn’t refuse, which would be to run a show that’s practically tailor-made to fit B’s dream job. That’s what I meant by losing the battle (how VLD would go) and winning the war (being the party seen as in the right, by the execs).

The only way for A to turn things around is to have a blisteringly successful final product. It could literally kill two careers with one stone: the (former) employee, B, who spun such a good story, and the exec(s) who believed B.

Given the numbers I’m seeing for S8... that exec did choose wisely.

ETA (sorry forgot this part): There might be pieces, but it really depends on what version control is in use (if any). For that matter, even if there were saved copies, who’s to say those didn’t get, whoops, deleted at some point? I’d put my bet on there being nothing, now, except what we got. Sorry.

I could understand if you never want to have anything to do with this show ever again.

Oh, jeez, I was here before VLD and I’ll be here after. Once we all get over our mutual exhaustion (and the holidays, bloody great timing, there), it’ll be time to roll up our sleeves and get to work. Fandom’s got a lot to do, putting things back together in all the shapes that’ll make us happy. This is the best time to be in a fandom, if you ask me. Everything’s just getting started!

#vld #voltron #come for the sugar stay for the salt #wrapping up a bundle of asks #sol thinks about stuff

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thebluelemontree · 6 years

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hello! we all agree that The Elder Brother is actually at the Vale with Sandor and Lord Howland posing as the hedge knights in service of Littlefinger. But who was he before he become The Elder Brother? I read a theory that he is Prince Lewyn Martell from Aerys' Kingsguard. What do you think? It would be interesting because Lyn Corbray believes he killed Prince Lewyn at the Trident. I hope you stay sober until your last day. Greetings from Poland

Thank you for your support! Well, you and I agree on that first part. Not everyone is convinced, which of course I understand, but I am quite pleased that the reception to that essay has been overall very positive from the feedback.

So I googled “Elder Brother is Lewyn Martell” so I could get a feel from where people are coming from with that. I’m not going to do a Reddit deep dive, but I read the one big essay that came up in the results. I’m not sure if that’s the one you read. Let me just start off by saying, there are parts of it that I am not going to touch. This person obviously gets a lot of enjoyment from tinfoil as part of their fandom experience and I don’t have a problem with that. It’s not my cup of tea personally, but I see no harm in it any more than people’s tastes in fanfic. So I don’t want to say anything that could be construed as being a critical jerk toward someone unless it was a theory that was disgusting or unfairly disparaging toward a character, which it isn’t in this case. I’m just going to focus on the Lewyn Martell bit.

From what I can see, they made a comparison between EB’s appearance and the closest relatives of Lewyn (mainly Quentyn Martell) to get a composite of what he may have looked like based on that. This is just their guess. There is no description of Lewyn in canon. Basically, it comes down to a stocky build, being possibly dark-haired, and possibly drinking too much alcohol. But Lewyn doesn’t necessarily have to resemble any of his living relatives or share their habits. There is not one mention of Lewyn being a serious drinker. In her childhood memories, Arianne remembers Lewyn as “tall as a tower;” however, she was very young when she saw him, she’s clearly romanticizing her kingsguard uncle, and pretty much any grown man would be super tall to a small child. If you’re making a secret identity theory, I think you need a lot more evidence than a vague, unverifiable physical description. If GRRM wanted us to draw a connection between EB and LM, meaning this was going to be a very important plot point later on, he would have given us way more specific information on the latter.

There are other reasons too why EB is not LM or has anything to do with LM. Jon Arryn returned Lewyn’s bones to Dorne, so his body was recovered from the battlefield. There’s a reason why important people wear their sigils and highly recognizable armor on a battlefield. A) You don’t want your own men attacking you by mistake because your face is hidden by a helm. You want them to know who they should be following and taking orders from. B) If you are captured, you want to be identified, so you’re more likely to be taken as a valuable hostage to be traded/ransomed. Kingsguard armor is pretty distinctive, and he’s the only KG on the Trident. Lewyn was also leading ten thousand Dornishmen. So supposedly not one of his own men fighting beside him actually saw Lyn Corbay slay their commander and they also somehow lost his body on the Trident? If so, are they saying that Jon Arryn took some rando’s bones to Dorne and passed them off as LM’s? Is everyone who was there on the Trident or later involved in handling Lewyn’s body just straight up lying or inexplicably mistaken about all this? Even with Lyn Corbay taking issue with the fact that Lewyn was already mortally wounded before he dealt the final blow with Lady Forlorn (because it cheapens the victory that earned him his spurs), not one person has a differing account of how LM died and what happened to his body to cause us to doubt. Again, is literally everyone involved lying, conspiring or being bamboozled here? For what purpose and by what motivation? There’s just no mystery here, or smell of conspiracy, or any good reason to believe he washed up on the QI. It’s really just resting on this person’s say so that it must have happened because of reasons. Furthermore, it’s nothing like EB’s account of how he “died” and washed up on the shore:

I took an arrow through the thigh and another through the foot, and my horse was killed from under me, yet I fought on. I can still remember how desperate I was to find another horse, for I had no coin to buy one, and without a horse I would no longer be a knight. That was all that I was thinking of, if truth be told. I never saw the blow that felled me. I heard hooves behind my back and thought, a horse! but before I could turn something slammed into my head and knocked me back into the river, where by rights I should have drowned."Instead I woke here, upon the Quiet Isle. The Elder Brother told me I had washed up on the tide, naked as my name day. I can only think that someone found me in the shallows, stripped me of my armor, boots, and breeches, and pushed me back out into the deeper water. The river did the rest.

EB was hit in the head by a blunt weapon by a man on horseback. Not a sword and definitely not Lady Forlorn. There was no final sword battle between two men on foot. Nothing else in EB’s backstory matches anything we know about Lewyn except that they both fought on the side on Prince Rhaegar at the Trident. EB was from a family of knights. Lewyn was a prince of Dorne and a kingsguard. He’s the brother of the ruling unnamed princess of Dorne and there is no mention of him having brothers like EB. EB had a girl he wanted to marry, but couldn’t because he had nothing to offer her. That they couldn’t have a relationship is a major cause of EB’s spiraling into violence and self-destruction. It was an open secret that LM kept a longtime paramour even while he was a kingsguard, feeling no shame about it. There’s no sense that LM had the same sad, depressed life that EB had. That he is LM completely undermines EB as a character and his relatability to Sandor Clegane. So I suppose EB is just lying to Brienne about every single detail of his backstory too for some reason? This doesn’t make any sense especially since he decided to bring it up his past completely unprompted by Brienne. What would be the point of lying? Brienne couldn’t ID him or Lewyn by any of those details. She couldn’t even ID the gravedigger who was right in front of her face twice, and that was the guy she was actually looking for. :/

Elder Brother has a past, but he does not need to have a secret past to make his character work. There’s a big difference. There were tens of thousands of people that fought on the Targaryen side, including a huge host from the Reach. That point comes from a So Spake Martin where he says some of Mace Tyrell’s strength was with Rhaegar, while he was at the siege of Storm’s End. If you want my thoughts on where EB might have been from, I’m going with House Vyrwel sworn to House Tyrell as my best guess. The Vyrwel’s are of Darkdell of the Reach. If you recall from my essay, Shadrich says he’s from the “Shady Glen,” which is also a play on the meaning of Duskendale. They both mean a shaded or darkened valley. Well, “Darkdell” means precisely the same thing. Lord and Lady Vyrwell were also present at the tourney at Whitewalls, which I’ve also discussed has striking parallels to the tourney of the Winged Knights. The only known Vyrwel we have in the current series is Igon Vyrwel, captain of the guards at Highgarden. He’s only mentioned in the appendix, so there’s no way to speculate further on how or if they are related. All I’m saying is that EB being from a smaller vassal house is nothing special in itself and that’s the point. He was just one of those bannerman that happened to be called to whatever side of the battle his lord was on. Being from a smaller house fits better with being dealt a shitty hand in life, having severely limited options, and having a sense of hopelessness about it. It fits better with his being able to connect with Sandor Clegane so that the latter can bear his soul to him. Aside from all the facts, Sandor Clegane is not going to be able to relate to a prince of Dorne who lived it up with a super hot girlfriend for years while he’s wearing the white cloak. Sorry, just no.

#Anonymous #Elder Brother #lewyn martell #the quiet isle #the trident #prince rhaegar #asoiaf tinfoil #crack theories #house vyrwel #bluelemons speculates #I have nothing against anyone that enjoys tinfoil and crack theories for fun #unless it's a theory that is being gross about any character #I have certain specific theories of my own #but on the whole I'm not into secret identity theories #I'm not trying to be mean to anyone and they way they choose to fandom #but most of those theories suck because they're so easy to debunk #long post

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charred-ground · 6 years

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Hey, the post you reblogged "Was Season 8 of Voltron changed?" got deleted. Is there any chance to find it somewhere else or sth? I really would like to see that post and compare my opinions and suspicions about vld to others'.

Huh, I’m gonna say that it’s gone now. :( But I do believe it’s probably for the best at this point. The whole account appears to be deactivated. I’ve done a lot of my own research and I’ve found that a lot of what people are saying are based off falsified rumors.

I can’t say what went on behind the scenes, but there’s not factual evidence for what was stated. Anyone can say “We have a person.” or “we know a person”. But I do believe the story was got is not the original story the creators wanted to tell however it is the story they were allowed to share.

People seem to not understand how animation works and how far in advance shows are animated. I know some people have said this is an excuse, but if you look at logic and ignore the ‘tea’ someone is pouring from unknown sources you’ll find your own thoughts and ideas. Fact one: The tea is exaggerated and falsified and spread by angry fans. Where there might be a hint of truth, it got exaggerated and then blown up to a point where the truth no longer exists.

Fact two: Rep was WANTED since the start of Voltron. The door for such rep was closed VERY tightly until statistics proved where the real fanbase was. The permission for rep was granted VERY VERY late in the game. So in a rush to add what they wanted they made a few mistakes. (Adam) Josh Keaton and Adam’s voice actor even said they recorded SEVERAL different lines for that scene. The concept being so last minute Netflix didn’t even get the right subtitles in their formatting.

Fact Three: Klance was NEVER the plan. The fans own that concept and the fans created the awareness. Klance was given a last-ditch effort of possibility.

Fact Four: Sheith was never in the cards either. Keith and Shiro were close. Shiro was a mentour and a brother/father figure to Keith. The showrunners didn’t know they’d have a chance for rep when they laid out the groundwork on this relationship. And Shiro was meant to die after season 2 and Keith was meant to kill the clone in season 6.

Personal take: Shiro and Keith’s relationship was to foreshadow the concept of found family. Shiro never had romantic designs for Keith. Keith never had romantic designs for Shiro. Shiro was a friend. The first person who trusted him. The only person who cared about him after his father died. Keith, whatever his sexuality is, doesn’t HAVE to have romantic feelings for a guy just because he’s gay. And gay men are capable of having platonic relationships with other men and other gay men. The gay men I’ve watched this show with adore Shiro but felt better about a platonic Sheith relationship because “A gay guy AND a regular??guy can have a close relationship without wanting to screw each other's brains out. It’s like saying a csi guy and girl can’t be friends.” So seeing Keith(sexually ambiguous) and Shiro in a close nonromantic relationship sends a message that everyone keeps forgetting. “People are people. No matter their race, color, gender, or sexuality. Everyone deserves love. Everyone deserves to have important people in their lives.” For all we know Keith was Shiro’s number one ally. “You mean this guy and that gay guy can be friends!?” “Yes Tommy… it’s okay for your straight ass to be friends with a gay guy.”

Fact five: After getting the ‘okay’ for rep, the creators RUSHED to show what they wanted to show. Yes they tripped up along the way and yes it was a rush job. But they wanted to throw that in there because they were given the go ahead very late in the game. So the question is… Which would have made people happier? Ignorance is bliss and just have Shiro be Adam’s roommate? Or be the rep they wished he could have been? Imagine what the creators could have done if Dreamworks felt about Voltron the way they currently feel about She-ra (Someone learned a lesson down the way).

Fact Six: Put the blame where the blame actually belongs. The Ships like all ships are created by the fans. We saw something and we wanted it SOOOO BAD we created theories and metas and had a whole lot of fun doing it. But remember not EVERY thing actually means something. Sometimes a tree is just a damn tree and doesn’t mean anything.

Enjoy your ships, enjoy your metas. But for goddsakes, it’s time to move on. Create the worlds you wish to create. Draw them write them but leave the people involved with Voltron alone. Klancers and Sheithers(Oh yes… it’s been mostly them this time) have been threatening the cast and crew at their HOMES people… this is disgusting. There is no conspiracy. This isn’t a Dan Brown novel. The tea is tabloid level fabrications made by angry fans

I might get some or a lot hate for this… but honestly, I’m getting so tired of seeing the hate and the blame and grrrrr on a show that brought me happiness. The ending hurt. Sure, but it’s all a matter of perspective. Did Allura die? NO she didn’t die. She’s not DEAD she’s a frick’in goddess. I don’t know why people keep saying she’s dead. She cradles the universe. She’s the creator of all realities. The hero.

Lance is the one the heart aches for, but it’s a matter of perspective how he moves about his life. If you want to wallow in the pessimistic mush, then yes he lives out his life in virginal mourning of Allura (uuuugh why would you Head Cannon that!?). OR he moves on with his life, cherishes the memories he has but finds a way to heal and a new love somewhere else because Allura would have wanted that for him, and being the goddess she is probably set a few things in motion (head cannon Keith hopping over to the farm and a slow love builds)

Shiro is happy now. Happily married to Curtis. If the story creator says HE IS HAPPY then he’s happy. If he’s miserable in your head cannon it’s because you imagine him that way…

Oh yeah, JDS and LM did not get fired from Dreamworks… so yeah… Unfollowing does not translate to “You’re fired.”

ANYWAY This got longer than meant… so um yeah.. no I don’t know where that post is! Sorry!!! This is NOT an attack on the asker at all! I adore questions. I just got off on a rant. If I use ‘you’ its the royal ‘you’.

#voltron #voltron season 8 #vld spoilers #i'm an adult and fed up #there is no tea only ducky #asks

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sage-nebula · 6 years

Text

@nerd-bastard replied to your post: “I’m going to make numerous posts about season two of The Dragon Prince...”

well said. i'm still a little raw after vld, and part of me is still upset that the writers deemed it necessary for them to die, but yeah, p much everything you already said. i'm willing to try and trust them based on how clearly important social justice is to their story.

First, I’m sorry this reply is so late! I laid down to rest pretty much immediately after I wrote that post last night and then slept for . . . a long time, haha. But I do want to reply to you, because I have seen a lot of comparisons to VLD ever since The Dragon Prince released, but I really, truly believe we don’t have anything to worry about here. I truly believe there is not even a sliver of a chance that The Dragon Prince will end up anything like VLD. And if I can pass a bit of that reassurance onto you, then I want to (or at least, I want to try).

(Note: This is very long, and also full of VLD negativity / salt / criticism.)

Before anything else, I just want to say that I completely understand being burned by VLD. I don’t know how much you know about my personal feelings on it given that you just started following me recently, but I actually dropped the show after season six because the way Lotor was treated in season six made me so upset that I had to miss work the next day because I was so physically ill from panic attacks. I’m a mixed-race child abuse survivor myself, and so to see Lotor treated the way that he was---to have JDS and LM confirm in a post-season interview that their intention really was to say, “unless you have a good parental figure in your life [like Keith had Shiro, was the example they used], you’ll end up evil and/or just like your abusive parents” was just too much for me. There were already a thousand reasons why I was upset with them for things they had done in VLD and in interviews (e.g. how they used the slur “half-breed” to refer to mixed-race characters, their treatment of female characters such as the generals, and so on), but that was the final straw. I know what happened in seasons seven and eight because it was impossible for me not to hear about it given how big the fandom is, so I know all about the queerbaiting with Adam and what their intentions were with him and Shiro’s sexuality, but I didn’t actually watch myself (outside of select bits of s8 because I couldn’t resist childhood flashbacks for Lotor), and I will not watch anything JDS or LM work on ever again. They have no respect or care for people like me, so I will not have any for them.

So I completely, completely understand still feeling hurt and upset over VLD. Believe me when I say that I am in the same boat, and I have nothing but empathy for you. But I also really, truly believe that we have nothing to fear when it comes to The Dragon Prince and its crew.

To begin with, just some base comparisons:

Voltron: Legendary Defender was produced by DreamWorks Animation, and though both LM and JDS have said that they were fans of the original 80s Voltron series, I think it’s far more believable that they accepted their roles of executive producers for VLD more because of the paycheck and the career boost it would give them than anything else. Surely, DreamWorks decided to create and air a new Voltron series because of the revenue it would bring them, given that it was already an established franchise in the past and it came ready-made with plenty of toy ideas. Likewise, being at the helm of a product that would already garner plenty of attention and exposure for them---and a massive boost to their careers if it was successful---would no doubt be attractive to LM and JDS. I don’t believe that VLD was ever a passion project for any of them. It was a job. It was a job that maybe had the potential to be fun, but it wasn’t something they came up with themselves because of a love for the story or the characters. And keep in mind, I’m not trying to bash them by saying this, I’m just stating what I think are the facts. Plenty of creators in television and even film sign onto projects they don’t necessarily love so that they can get the money and boost to their careers to make the things they do. That’s just how the business is sometimes, and I think that’s what happened here.

But that’s not the case with The Dragon Prince. The Dragon Prince is being created by Aaron Ehasz, Justin Richmond, and Giancarlo Volpe. Aaron and Justin founded WonderStorm in order to make this show (and the game that will tie in to the show). They had the ideas and passion for the story and characters first, before they made their studio. And that’s just it: Their studio of nineteen people exists solely to tell this story. Particularly since we know that Netflix doesn’t have an overhead for the content they air, this means that Aaron, Justin, Giancarlo, and everyone else can do whatever they want with this story. They don’t have executives twisting their arms behind their backs. But more importantly, they’re also telling this story because they want to be. Since they’re a small indie company, this was actually something of a risk for them; they’re not guaranteed more seasons, they’re not guaranteed financial success, and if The Dragon Prince failed, that could mean the end of their company. So they’re not doing this for critical acclaim or money (especially since they all could have gone to other projects being created by major companies like DreamWorks if they wanted more money or exposure). They’re doing it because they have a story they love, that they want to tell, that they want to share with others. All nineteen of them are here because they care, not because it’s “just a job” that they have to do in order to make money or get more exposure and fame.

And that might be all fine and dandy, but just because you’re doing something as a passion project doesn’t mean that you’re doing right by those you want to represent, right? I would agree with that, but I think we can already see massive differences between VLD and The Dragon Prince when it comes to representation.

VLD was originally acclaimed for its representation due to having characters with different racial backgrounds in the main cast. The fact that Shiro was disabled was also critically acclaimed as well, because he was a disabled main character who was still allowed to be a hero. The thing is, however, that VLD’s representation is by and large shallow. They don’t really care about actually representing anyone as much as they care about getting the accolades and praise for doing the bare minimum. As a few examples:

Shiro is disabled, but his disability might as well be a cosmetic difference than anything else. We see Shiro affected by his PTSD a grand total of once (when Sendak was mocking him in season one), and we never see him really impacted by his arm. Keep in mind that I am NOT saying that his character arc should have revolved around his disability. Writing disabled characters with their disability as their only personality trait is horrible writing, and would be even worse than what they actually did. But what I am saying is that while losing his arm and having it replaced with galra tech should have been something traumatizing for Shiro, we never actually see that. We never see him experience phantom pains from his missing limb (which he could do even with the galra arm, as we see with Edward Elric and his automail in the FMA manga). I can’t remember a time when the arm malfunctioned or broke down to the point where he only had one arm in a potentially dangerous situation, and had to cope. Instead, in all honesty, his arm just looked cool and gave him a ton of abilities he wouldn’t have without it. Whereas Edward Elric has phantom pains with his automail, has it break repeatedly, can’t go into very cold or very hot temperatures without risking serious injury and so much more, Shiro’s arm is pretty much there just to look cool and offer convenient solutions to galra problems. He’s disabled, yes, but he’s not shown actually having any of the experiences that disabled people with prosthetic limbs in real life have.

Similarly, we find out in season seven that he had a chronic illness . . . but we never actually see him experiencing that in the show itself. He had a chronic illness as we find out in flashbacks, but in seasons 1-6 he was never shown actually suffering from that chronic illness. The reason given is that Haggar had it removed while experimenting on him (which . . . makes his kidnapping a good thing because he would have died otherwise? What??), but the point still remains that while Shiro could have been excellent representation for people with chronic illness had we seen him have at least some effects of chronic illness on the show (needing medication at the least, or having some fatigue symptoms, or something), he wasn’t, because without being told that he had chronic illness in flashbacks in season seven, no one would have known. I’ve seen people say that he’s supposed to be representative of the chronically ill, but in my personal opinion invisible representation is not representation. It feels an awful lot more like JDS and LM just wanted to slap another representation label on him without doing any of the legwork and call it a day.

They included more female characters, but used them as plot devices or supports for male characters. I distinctly remember a pre-season three interview when LM was gushing about how excited she was for Lotor’s generals, because they were generals now instead of being a part of a harem as they apparently were in the 80s version (I didn’t watch the 80s version, so I couldn’t tell you). But at the end of the day, Acxa, Zethrid, Narti, and Ezor were glorified plot devices or supports for male characters, and other female characters on the show didn’t fare much better. A quick rundown:

Acxa was defined by her relationships to either Lotor or Keith. She was either Lotor’s most loyal general, wanting to carry through his vision or support him endlessly, or she was so moved by Keith’s sparse interactions with her that she wanted to do everything that he did. It briefly seemed as though Acxa did have her own motivations when she turned on Lotor in season four in order to protect Ezor and Zethrid, but in season six that was wiped away by showing that it was all a ploy and that she never lost her loyalty to Lotor in the first place. Don’t misunderstand, I love her relationships with Lotor and Keith as I write them in my works, but I also take care to give Acxa her own backstory and motivations that aren’t dependent on her relationships with those male characters. In canon, we didn’t get that. Not at all.

Narti was a disabled character who was both blind (unless linked with Kova) and mute. She was also abruptly killed off for no reason other than to give Lotor and the other generals a reason to separate. Narti was never given characterization, backstory, or a real purpose in the narrative. She was apparently trusted enough by Lotor to be given his beloved cat, but that ended the moment he struck her down. I used to think that perhaps this was foreshadowing for how he’d react when he found out about Shireplica, which would in turn set the rest of Team Voltron against him, but that wasn’t even it. Instead, it was just that Narti was seen as disposable by LM and JDS, possibly because since she was blind and mute, they didn’t consider her as worthwhile as the other generals. Disgusting.

Ezor and Zethrid were plot devices. In the beginning it seemed that they surely had motivations and character arcs of their own. Ezor was the most upset about Narti’s death, and was the first to call for mutiny, whereas Zethrid only agreed after the first attempt at the rift gateway failed. But as the seasons continued it became more than clear that they were only there to do as the plot commanded them to do. Zethrid suddenly wanted to conquer things in season five despite agreeing with Lotor’s vision before. Ezor was “glad to be on Lotor’s side again” in season six despite being the most upset over Narti and the first to call for mutiny in season four. I fully believe that the only reason why they were written as a couple in later seasons is because they were the only two remaining generals of Lotor’s who didn’t already have another potential love interest (as Acxa had Keith). I also believe they only miraculously survived in season eight due to backlash to their deaths in season seven. But whatever the case, it’s clear that Ezor and Zethrid were not given consideration as individuals. I can’t even list them individually here because that’s how little consideration JDS and LM gave them. It’s goddamn sad.

Krolia only exists to be Keith’s mom. That’s it! At first it might seem as though she did have her own motivations and goals when she was introduced in season five. It seemed highly likely that she left Keith behind because she believed in the cause and the mission to overthrow the Empire, something that she and her son would end up having in common (because Keith would likely make the same choice). But in season six, this was dashed. No, she was perfectly happy to abandon the mission and war to have a family, and only left because she wanted to protect Keith. Fuck the billions of people who were enslaved and dying that Krolia could have cared about---fuck her friends and found family in the Blade of Marmora that she could have cared about, fuck everything else she had going on in her life before she crash landed on Earth that she could have cared about---no, she only cared about Keith. And her role in the show from that point onward was just to be his mom, too. She did end up leading the galra alongside Kolivan later on in season eight, but everything she did was for Keith. She didn’t have any interests, any passions, any goals or opinions that weren’t tied to him in some way. She wasn’t created as her own character, she was created to be Keith’s Mom and that’s it. Disappointing. More important female characters were able to stand on their own for the most part, but even they were done dirty in similar ways. Pidge’s entire character arc revolved around wanting to find her father and brother, for the most part. She had little brief spots of wanting to connect with nature here or there, but for the most part it was all about her male relatives and how she wanted to find them. Her character was never explored more deeply than that. And Allura just wanted to follow in Alfor’s footsteps. All the choices she made with regards to wanting to be a paladin or an alchemist were all because her dad did it first. Rather than giving her an arc about wanting to carve out her own legacy, or realizing that she should want that because Alfor wasn’t the perfect paragon of goodness she believed he was, she instead just wanted to make him proud and that’s it. She was defined by how well she lived up to his legacy. (And that’s not even getting into the misogynoir of her ending, my god.) At the end of the day, LM and JDS wanted to get props for having Strong Female Characters™ without actually writing female characters in a strong way. It’s shallow representation at best.

And finally, the issue of queerbaiting and Bury Your Gays with Adam and Shiro. Prior to season seven, JDS and LM announced that Shiro was gay and had been in a relationship with another instructor at the garrison, Adam. Fans were promised that we would meet Adam and season seven. They generated as much buzz and fanfare as they could, got everyone excited . . . and then not only was it not evident without knowing beforehand that Shiro and Adam were romantically involved, but Adam died about five minutes after his introduction. What they essentially did was pull a JK Rowling: We only knew that Shiro was gay in season seven thanks to them telling us beforehand (similarly to Dumbledore’s “reveal”), and Adam died immediately so there would be no chance of a reconciliation. Shiro did later get to marry a man and have a kiss and all, which is at least something (though the fact that we didn’t get to see that relationship develop is highkey disappointing), but that doesn’t change what they did in season seven. To make matters worse, JDS admitted in his open letter that they knew they were doing the “Bury Your Gays” trope, but that they (paraphrased) “hoped that the reveal of Shiro’s orientation would overshadow it.” I.e., they just wanted the brownie points for saying, “Hey, Shiro’s gay!” instead of actually showing him in a loving relationship with another man and letting the story tell itself. They didn’t want to actually write a queer character or queer relationship; they just wanted the praise and positive buzz for saying they did.

And that’s the same pattern that almost all of VLD’s representation falls into. With the exception of the racial diversity on the show (and even that fails in some areas, such as the writing hinting that mixed-race galra are treated badly, but never delving further into it, though at least we did have skin color diversity among the human characters), VLD’s representation was shallow and only there for brownie points and accolades. The VLD staff did not actually care about representation; they just wanted the awards for having a diverse show. As far as I can recall, I believe that they only started talking about queer representation once people started pestering them about it on twitter. To that end, we could even surmise that it was never originally planned (which would explain why Shiro did not ask Keith about Adam after first waking up in season one, because even if they had broken up, Shiro had planned on marrying that man; you can’t tell me he wouldn’t have cared or been curious), but that they just slapped it on once they saw it would garner positive publicity after shows like Steven Universe aired. Everything LM and JDS ever did was for their own glory; it was never out of genuine care and consideration.

By contrast, The Dragon Prince has given us both representation and care. As another brief rundown:

General Amaya is a deaf character who speaks in ASL and who was created by the crew working with deaf and hard of hearing individuals to make sure she was portrayed authentically. The crew has said in numerous interviews that once they decided to make Amaya deaf, they worked with numerous deaf and hard of hearing people to make sure they were portraying her authentically. They had deaf and hard of hearing people doing ASL in the studio so that the animations were accurate and authentic, too. They didn’t just decide that Amaya was deaf and call it a day; they actually worked with people in that community to make sure that her portrayal would really speak to others in said community, that she wouldn’t be an offensive stereotype or a shallow presentation. And even more than that, we see how Amaya’s disability has informed her character and arc. While she can read lips (and the ability she has to do so is a bit realistic, but that’s been addressed by the creators saying they did a bit of leeway for the sake of the story flow), she still has an interpreter with her in her season one appearances, and we see that her soldiers have learned ASL as well. In fact, it’s because one of the soldiers knows ASL in season two that he is able to tip Amaya---and only Amaya---off to the fact that there are sunfire elves holding him hostage. Amaya being deaf doesn’t define her character, but we do see how it informs her character (and her relationship with her sister, when she and Sarai share a dirty joke that those who don’t know ASL don’t understand!), as well as how it informs and affects the plot.

The female characters are ALL well-rounded, and none of them are dependent on male characters for their arc. Honestly, I have so much to say about the lady characters in The Dragon Prince that I could be here all day if I tried to do a rundown like I did above for VLD, but the simple fact of the matter is that all of the lady characters---even ones we only get glimpses of, such as Sarai---show that they have thoughts, motivations, and character arcs that aren’t dependent on their relationships with male characters in the show. To try to keep it brief:

Rayla was raised and trained by Runaan to be an assassin, and she does want to get Azymondias back to the dragon queen, yes. But she’s also motivated by the sense of shame she has over her parents abandoning their duty as Dragon Guards to flee for their own lives instead. She’s motivated by a deep, internal sense of Right and Wrong that pushes her to hesitate to kill those who aren’t attacking her, and to defy Runaan’s orders once she learns that the egg wasn’t shattered after all. This same internal sense of Right or Wrong has her questioning her job as an assassin in season two, and pushes her to defend the defenseless dragon that Soren and Claudia want to chop to bits. She cares quite a lot about Callum and Ezran, given that it’s heavily implied that they’re the first friends she’s ever had her own age, but she’s not afraid to argue with (or even temporarily separate from) them in order to do what she feels is right. She’s her own character, and even if any of the male characters were removed, she’d have enough to stand on her own.

Claudia was taught dark magic by her father, Viren, and she cares a lot about her brother Soren, yes. However, she also has clear passion and love for dark magic; she considers it “fun” to turn chains into snakes, gets super excited when she has a new breakthrough, and is fascinated by magical ruins and artifacts. She studies magic not because she wants to be like her father or because she wants to make him proud, but because it genuinely fascinates her and she loves pushing her own potential. She’s also impatient and frustrated when her “shortcuts” don’t work out; she uses dark magic for convenience, as seen when she uses it to make pancakes, and she throws tantrums when things don’t go her way. She also has little regard for lives that aren’t human. She’s her own character, and even if any of the male characters were removed, she would still have enough character and motivation to stand on her own.

Sarai was Harrow’s wife, and mother of Callum and Ezran. Lesser shows would have just left her as that. But even though we’ve had hardly any time to get to know Sarai, we see that she was so much more than that. We see little details, like how she had a sweet tooth and felt that dreams that weren’t dirty were “boring.” We also see how she was Harrow’s closest adviser when she was alive, and how she “advised” him through sparring matches. We see how she was passionate that all life was sacred, how she argued against killing Xadians for the benefit of humans, even those humans in her own kingdom. We see how she was willing to stand by Harrow even when she disagreed with him, and that she didn’t let go of her disagreement, but still did what she felt was Right. And we also see that even when she disagreed, she could still see when the success of the mission was more important than anything else, as she gave her life to save Viren’s so that the people of Katolis and Duren would live. Sarai was her own character with her own motivations, and would have been strong even if she hadn’t been Queen of Katolis. These are just three brief examples, but the way that characters such as Amaya, Ellis, Lujanne, and Aanya were portrayed follows these same lines. The female characters in The Dragon Prince are written to be people rather than Strong Female Characters™. Aaron Ehasz and Justin Richmond never bragged about having strong female characters on their show, but they didn’t need to for us to see what a diverse and well-rounded cast of female characters they have.

Finally, the queer representation. In season one it was strongly hinted that Runaan and Tinker Elf from the credits were in a relationship, and I’m of the opinion that Aaron recently confirmed on twitter that Runaan is in fact queer (because when someone asked him if Runaan was the queer character who died, Aaron said “we all know Runaan isn’t dead :)” which would imply that while he’s not dead, he is queer). Unfortunately, they’re not happy together just yet, but I have hope that Runaan will be saved in the coming seasons, that we’ll get to meet Tinker, and that we’ll get to see them happy together. I hope so. Then there’s Aanya’s mothers. I already spoke about this in the post you replied to, so I won’t go on about it at length again, but I will point out that no one on the crew bragged about having queer representation this season (it was a Hypable reviewer who brought it up), nor was their relationship ambiguous in the show itself as Shiro’s and Adam’s was. Moreover, when Aaron addressed the fans, he agreed that fans had a right to be upset that they were, promised more representation in the future, and asked us to trust him. Rather than growing angry at the fans who were upset and liking petty salt posts defending him on twitter the way JDS did before admitting that all he wanted were brownie points, Aaron sympathized with the fans and promised to keep listening. And with the way they improved the animation after hearing fan feedback, I believe that they’ll take this to heart in the future. We already know that Ezran’s choice at the end of this season wasn’t originally planned, but that they went with it because they listened to his character. This tells us they aren’t married to their plot, and are instead writing to character. I believe that they’ll take all this into consideration moving forward.

No show is perfect, because no content creator is perfect. I’m not saying that The Dragon Prince hasn’t or will never make mistakes. But I am saying that we have already seen five billion times more care and consideration from the crew of The Dragon Prince than we ever saw from VLD. All the cards are in place for The Dragon Prince to truly do right by its story, characters, and fans, and that comes right down to the crew and what they’ve already shown us. Any depth and care that VLD had came from the fans rather than the creators or the show itself. With The Dragon Prince, we see depth and care within the first episode or two, and that has never lessened. I completely understand being burned by VLD, because I was, too, but The Dragon Prince is an entirely different project by an entirely different team from an entirely different studio and is on an entirely different (much higher) level. VLD’s sins have no place here, and I truly feel that we have nothing to worry about.

#nerd-bastard #//#///#////#/////#voltron salt #voltron negativity #representation

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