#jon meta

[asongofstarkandtargaryen]

When fans think about Jon's tenure as Lord Commander they often let his tragic end to influence their view on him. Because if a leader experience a munity they must have done a lot of things wrong, right? This simplistic view doesn't take into consideration:

a. that the people who betrayed him were bigots who didn't want to adapt to the current situation on the Wall ( aka that the big enemy was the Others and no longer the Free Folk)

b. just because a person doesn't foresee a specific event ( in Jon's case the betrayal of some of his men) that doesn't automatically makes them a bad leader or deletes all the positive reforms they made.

[docpiplup]

#JON SNOW FORTNIGHT EVENT 2023

@asoiafcanonjonsnow

DAY 10: ECHOES OF THE PAST 🗝️📜(2/2) ->

Historical parallels with Medieval bastard Kings.

John I of Portugal

To complete the the previous post of this meta, we're going to dive in the parallels and simmilarities between Jon Snow and John I of Portugal through the following points:

BASTARDY

John I of Portugal also known as John of Avis, was the bastard son of King Peter I of Portugal and Teresa Guille Lourenço, a Galician noblewoman, lady in waiting of Inês de Castro, or according to other sources, the daughter of some Lisbon merchants.

Jon Snow is officially known to be Ned Stark's bastard son, and if we consider R+L=J, he's Prince Rhaegar and Lyanna's son, and as far as we know Jon is still a bastard.

PARENT'S TRAGIC LOVE STORY

John I's father, Peter I of Portugal fell in love with Inês, a lady in waiting and cousin of Constanza Manuel de Villena (Peter's wife).

After Constanza died, they became lovers and they had four children and they wed in secret, but some Portuguese nobles and Peter's father, Afonso IV of Portugal, disliked their relationship because the possible influences of Inês' family. They plotted to kill her, Inés was killed by three of those men and it's said that when Peter became king, he put Inês' corpse in a throne next to him so that the people would swear allegiance to her as queen of Portugal and looked for revenge chasing the ones who killed Inês. John I was born a few years after Inês died when Peter I had an affair with Teresa Lourenço.

Jon's parents, Rhaegar and Lyanna met at the Harrenhal Tourney, in which both participated, Lyanna as the Knight of the Laughing Tree, Aerys sent Rhaegar some men to learn the identity of the mystery knight, so it's likely that Rhaegar figure it out and then crowned her as Queen of Love and Beauty when he won the tourney. They fell in love and run away together, Rhaegar died at the Battle of the Trident during Robert's rebellion and Lyanna died after giving birth to Jon at the Tower of Joy.

BROTHER IS THE KING

After Peter I of Portugal died, he was succeeded by his son with Constanza Manuel de Villena, Ferdinand I, and John held a prominent position during the reign of his brother.

Jon is a brother of the Night's Watch when Robb is proclaimed as King in the North and during his brief reign.

Apart from that it would be argued that Aegon VI fits here too because he's Jon's brother, but Young Griff's identity as Aegon VI is doubtful and he hasn't taken control of Westeros yet.

MILITAR EDUCATION AND CAREER

John was educated by Nuno Freire de Andrade, Master of the Order of Christ, and John became Master of the Order of Avís, one of the most important Orders in Portugal during the Middle Ages, from which he will take his last name.

Jon joined the Night's Watch, which can also be considered a militar order in which chastity is also imposed on its members just like the Order of Avis. Jeor Mormont, Lord Commander of the Night's Watch has been one of Jon's mentors, so just like John, Jon had the leader of a militar order as a mentor, and then became the head of a militar order.

RELATIONSHIPS/LOVE INTERESTS

While John formed part of the Order of Avis, despite vows of chastity, John had two bastard children with Inês Pires when he was a teenager, Beatrice and Afonso, 1st Duke of Braganza.

Jon broke his vows by falling in love and being with Ygritte, even though Jon didn't had children with Ygritte, and Jon has also expressed that he didn't want to have them because of the stigma of being a bastard and the classist Westerosi society.

POLITICAL MATCH MAKER

John was one of the negotiators of the successive marriage projects of his niece and the heiress Beatrice of Portugal, who would end up marrying John I of Castile (Henry II of Castile's son), as a way to seal peace after the Fernandine Wars, in which Ferdinand I tried to overthrow Henry II from the Castilian throne, who became king after killing his legitimate brother Peter I of Castile (who was Ferdinand I's cousin), and was supported by one of Peter I's legitimised bastard children, Constance of Castile.

In the agreements established that each one would independently reign their kingdoms and the offspring of both would inherit Portugal, although if Beatrice died without children, the heirs of her husband would inherit Portugal, and John I of Castile has children from a previous marriage to Eleanor of Aragon (this is important detail for later).

Jon has also arranged a wedding of a familiar during his time as head of the militar institucional, as the Karstarks originated as a cadet branch of the Starks, and there have been intermarriages between the two houses, so we could assume Alys and Jon are distant cousins, such as Alys and Sigorn's wedding.

PROBLEMS OF SUCESSION AND INDEPENDENCE OF THEIR KINGDOMS & THEIR RISE TO KINGSHIP

After the death of Ferdinand I, a succession crisis took place in Portugal between Beatrice, who had no offspring, and the children of Peter I of Portugal with Inés de Castro (who were considered bastards by the Portuguese nobility), and also John revolted at end of 1384 with the support of the commonfolk and the bourgeoisie, and promoted a war to maintain the independence of Portugal, adopting the title of defender of the kingdom, which he achieved by defeating Beatrice and John I of Castile, for which he was crowned king of Portugal, being the first king and founder of the House of Avis.

Due to what happened to John with the fight for the independence of Portugal against another family member, it is most likely that in TWOW when Jon arrives in Winterfell the inheritance problem between the Starklings will have to be solved, and with Robb's will and his position as the older brother and being the one with political experience, supported by the Free Folk, the Mountain Clans and some Northern Noble Houses like the recently created House of Thenn, formed by Alys and Sigorn, Jon will be named king in the North breaking relations with the Iron Throne that is under the control of the Lannisters and the North will be (for the moment) independent again. In addition, the matter of Beatrice and her husband John I of Castile reminds me a bit of the marriage of Sansa and Tyrion, being Tywin's initial plan to get the North under the rule of the Lannisters, although that did not work and the best method was having the Boltons at Winterfell. Plus both Tyrion and John I of Castile have lions in their sigils, although the Castilian lion is purple (or in some media, red) and the Lannister one is golden.

ALLIANCES, MARRIAGE & OFFSPRING/POSSIBLE MARRIAGE (SPECULATIONS)

Like his brother Ferdinand I, John supported Constance's cause, allying with her against John I of Castile, but they were defeated and Constance did not get the Castilian throne, her daughter Catherine of Lancaster married John I of Castile's son, Henry III, and their son was  John II of Castile, thus uniting the two lines of succession of Alfonso XI of Castile.

As well as Peter I of Castile's two eldest surviving daughters married two of Edward III of England's sons (Constance married John of Gaunt, 1st Duke of Lancaster and Isabella married Edmund of Langley, 1st Duke of York), John I of Portugal married Philippa of Lancaster, John of Gaunt's eldest daughter with Blanche of Lancaster, and they had a loving marriage and eight children: Blanche, Afonso, Edward I of Portugal, Peter, Henry, Isabella, John and Ferdinand.

Edward was a poet and writer, his more important books were, on good governance,'The Loyal Counselor', 'Book of Councils', 'Response, being princes, to the infant D. Ferdinand about some complaints he had of his father'; on sports and horsemanship, with educational connotations, 'Teaching book about riding well in any saddle' and "Regiment to learn to play weapons'.

It's very likely that Jon will need to make more alliances to stablish his position as King in The North and preparing for the War for the Dawn and fight against the Others, and one way to do it it would be marrying someone with a prominent influence and a big army.

And although Dany hasn't landed on Westeros yet, due to her army and her influence as queen claimant to the Iron Throne, could be a good ally, and Dany would like to help due to her care for people who are needed, so probably Jon and Dany would join forces and eventually they could fall in love, marry and rule Westeros together.

Plus, if Jon ans Dany have children, one of them could be a poet like Edward I or a music composer and a bookworm like Rhaegar.

CUNNING/KNOWLEDGE

Contemporary writers state John that his position as a master of a religious military order made him an exceptionally learned king for the Middle Ages. His love for knowledge and culture was passed down to his children, who are collectively referred to by Portuguese historians as the illustrious generation, for example, Edward I the Eloquent and Peter were considered as two of the most learned princes of their time, and Henry the Sailor invested heavily in science and in the development of nautical activities.

Although Jon is often seen as a warrior, he has shown interest on knowledge and books too and he has been showing competences and skills for being a good leader and he's cunning good at politics and a good administrator, as he has been proving during his time as Lord Commander of the Night's Watch.

DRAGON IMAGERY

John I of Portugal's sigil has some elements that make me link him with Jon, his emblem has a crest with a dragon, which was usually used in the heraldry of the Portuguese Royal family, in which a dragon appears in the Royal crest or two green dragons as the supports of coat of arms, which makes me think of Rhaegal, a green dragon, who was named after Rhaegar and most likely Jon is its dragonrider.

[winterprince601]

honestly, i don't blame anyone for not making the connection between rhaegar targaryen and jon snow. they are such different guys to me. you could organically stumble upon rhaegar playing a silver harp in a clearing in the woods, silently weeping into the flowing waters of a crystalline stream. jon is the teenage manager of a fast food chain who sometimes shows up to work dripping wet because he doesn't own an umbrella.

[babybells123]

‘Cersei and Joffrey and the general trauma Sansa suffers leads her down a path of hating herself in the same way Cersei does; hating her naivety, partly wanting to shame others who are still like that as a means to project it outwards and yet she never quite does. And not only is that a triumph of her empathy in the face of her situation but it is also a triumph of belief in herself; still seeing goodness within herself rather than just something to shame and attack the way everyone makes her internalise. If these other people deserve empathy, even when part of her does feel the opposite, if they still deserve empathy, so does she. I think all of this tells us she did have a lot of loving experiences from her parents growing up. That as much as she might feel self-hatred a lot of the time there is still a little voice in there saying ‘no you deserve more, you are more than they say.’ At many points it’s a very faint, faint voice in this story but what’s important is that it is there.’

Oh my god. He gets it. I really think the entire asoiaf fandom should watch this video. I mean, op is a child therapist - of course he has a better grasp of her complexity than half the freaking fandom.

[jaehaeryshater]

The King Come Over and his bride Ygritte Firekissed

art by : @shripscapi

Look at my King dawg we’re definitely getting through the Wall!!!

For the last month and a half, I have been working closely with Liesl to design concepts for Jon as King Beyond the Wall and Ygritte as his Queen. Personally, I’m not invested at all in Jon becoming King of the Seven Kingdoms despite him being my favorite character. He’s not very connected with the South and I don’t feel that it’s his birth right or anything, even being the son of Rhaegar. I am significantly more interested in him becoming King in the North, but my interest in Freefolk culture has led me to be far more invested in the idea of him rejecting Southron society as a whole and becoming King Beyond the Wall (this isn’t necessarily mutually exclusive to being King in the North later on).

The motivation for Jon becoming King as opposed to Mance stems from a theory that has been around since AGOT has come out: that the Others will only treat with/negotiate with a Stark. In the prologue of AGOT, when the Others are speaking among themselves before killing the Watchmen, what if they were confirming with each other that Waymar Royce was not a Stark and that they could go ahead and kill him? All in all, it doesn’t really matter if this is true, but rather that this is a plausible rumor that could easily have been passed down among the Freefolk which could lead Mance to conclude that Jon as a leader would give the Freefolk the best chance of survival. It’s not very hard, at least in my opinion, to imagine an AU like this, since survival is the most important thing to the Freefolk during the events of ASOIAF. But is it plausible that under these circumstances that Jon would abandon his Night’s Watch vows? I think so if he can be led to believe that only Stark blood could defeat the Others, but that is not the only factor. Jon Snow is insecure about his bastard status, plain and simple. He’s always lived in the shadow of his Robb, though he loved him. He’s wanted Winterfell, though he didn’t want to nor had any intention to take it from Robb. But he’s known since he was a small boy that he could never Winterfell and that would never inherit anything because he was a bastard. Jon also has thoughts, at least in passing, that Ned loved Robb more than him. He perceives Ned as having been more proud of Robb, of looking at him differently than himself. He’s seemingly always believed this, but there is a sort of confirmation of Jon’s feelings when Ned allows him to join the Night’s Watch without much preparation on what the Watch is actually like. Fully me making assumptions here, not something Jon has explicitly thought, but it’s unlikely that Ned would have sent Bran off at 14 to the Watch without much warning of what it was like, had Bran not become paralyzed. While we never get this exact thought process from Jon, in my opinion it fits into his psychology and insecurity. All this to say, if Jon is offered to be a figurehead, King, a title equal to his brother, but without taking anything away from the Starks or from Robb, that would almost certainly scratch that itch in him. It would be of his own merit, and there would be people behind him that don’t care that he’s a bastard, don’t see him as less than, and are willing to accept him for who he is. Not to mention that it also lets him feel like a hero and as if he is saving something far more precious than himself. And it probably doesn’t hurt that he would be able to remain with Ygritte as well.

We know from the descriptions of Mance and Dalla, as well as from being told directly by the former, that the King and his wife dress like all the other Freefolk, in thick furs. While the Jon and Ygritte arts from above are not particularly ostentatious by Southron standards, they are in obvious contrast to how Mance and Dalla are dressed. My idea was that Jon, having lived South of the Wall in a Lord’s keep all of his life, brought his own ideas to the Freefolk and added a distinction between a King and all other men. Nothing like in King’s Landing, all changes are inspired by his experience at Winterfell. I tried to think of what was achievable by the Freefolk, that would be difficult enough that it can’t be easily replicated for everyone else, but also keeping in mind of what could be done relatively quickly seeing as the Freefolk are focused on migrating South and saving themselves from the Others. The cultures I took inspiration for the clothing from are the Byzantines, Russians, Incans, Aztecs, and Mongolians. I wanted more “open” and flowy clothing, as opposed to more closed off and excessively modest clothing of 1300-1500s Europe that most of Westeros is based off of. Ygritte is still wearing furs, but they are dyed and there is weirwood embroidery in symbolism of the Old Gods and flame embroidery to symbolize her being kissed by fire. Her jewelry are simply clay beads that have been powdered blue. I didn’t want to give her any jewels as I felt it would be too difficult for the Freefolk to cut them directly and just overall would be against the spirit of the Freefolk. However, getting the blue on the clay like that still would be expensive and take a lot of time. I tried to keep the main color scheme surrounding gray as obviously that’s House Stark’s color. Jon’s clothes are similarly nice, with my main concern being him looking intimidating. I want the furs around his shoulders to be black because I wanted to call back to his time in the Night’s Watch without him keeping his psychical cloak, because I’m sure the Freefolk would not want him to do that. The furs are massive and make his shoulders look far larger, in an effort to make him look more intimidating, especially on a battlefield or in negotiations. He also has weirwood embroidery and his sigil is on the front of his outfit (my original idea was for him to have a flag with his heraldry on it, in which case the sigil would have looked far different, with a full length direwolf). There’s a white wolf on one side and either a crow or eagle on the other side (up for interpretation, both are relevant to Jon and one is one of the animals that can be used a symbol of the Freefolk) and the flame in the middle to represent Ygritte, but also defeating the Others as fire is the way Jon originally tried combating them as a steward at the Wall. The sigil is more than about Jon, after all, as it’s for the entirety of House Whitewolf, the House he founds. I thought the name fit far more in to Freefolk culture than something like Whitestark or something along those lines. Ygritte was supposed to have sewn on the sigil herself, and was very adamant about it, and that is meant to be why the thread is uneven and more visible than it ought to be. She’s not very good at the craft!

As I indicated before, crowns are not something common to Freefolk. That would be something else Jon would implement. Ygritte’s crown is very much like a hat, very casual. The beads are nice but obtaining them wouldn’t be unheard of, and holly most likely would not be particularly hard to come by. The reason I gave her a crown with holly is that during Christmas in the Tudor period and even before during pagan celebrations, people would go out into the woods and find holly and ivy to decorate their houses with. Holly was a symbol of masculine energy and ivy feminine energy. If you found more holly, it was meant to indicate that the man would rule the household for the year, and if you found more ivy then the woman would rule the household in the coming year (this was a way to “tell the future” not a rule lol). I liked the holly better for Ygritte so I’m just saying the Freefolk had the opposite belief. Jon’s crown is made of weirwood, which was important to me as I feel like his connection the Old Gods is also important as it is something that him and Freefolk both use to guide them. It ties them together. That being said, a weirwood crown is often used for Bran so I did not want to use a design that was too similar to the one used for him. Bran’s weirwood crown usually is made of weirwood branches, however, and not weirwood bark or logs, so I feel like it’s different enough. The frozen weirwood sap, as far as I know, is also unique to this design. There’s also some ivy to parallel with Ygritte’s holly.

The remaining bits and bobs I wanted to explain are the blue rose and then the face paint. The blue rose is obviously something associated with Lyanna Stark, who is widely accepted to be the mother of Jon Snow. I originally wanted to give him a rose somewhere, whether he was holding it or it was in his embroidery, but I forgot to ask during sketching, and then it was too late. But Ygritte holding the blue rose isn’t just about Lyanna. It’s also about Bael the Bard, a most likely fictitious person (or at least, the tale is fictitious, though I personally choose to believe it’s real) that went South of the Wall posing as a bard. He impressed the Lord of Winterfell so much that he granted Bael anything he wished; all Bael asked for was the most beautiful flower in Winterfell. This was granted for him, but the next morning he had stolen the Lord of Winterfell’s only child, a girl, and had left the flower in her bed in her place. He hid in the crypt with her for a year and they had a son together. Bael eventually went back North of the Wall and eventually Winterfell, having no other heir, passed to Bael’s child. Under this story, Jon is descended from Ygritte’s idol (maybe idol is stretching it, but she really likes him), Bael the Bard. Not only him, but all the Freefolk including Ygritte, according to her story. Following the story’s premise, Jon also poses as Bael and Ygritte as Winterfell’s daughter, with Jon joining her home under false pretenses and “stealing her”, as she calls it. So the blue rose has significance regarding both the Starks and the Freefolk. The face paint is inspired by tattooing done by cultures indigenous to North America. Indigenous Americans are not the only groups to use facial tattooing, the Vikings were famous for it as well, but Viking facial tattooing had more patterns based on shapes rather than lines and dots. I didn’t like the shapes so much, but the chin tattoo was one was that observed in all sorts of different cultures. Usually the chin tattoos with the line were on women in indigenous America, but I found some on men in other outside cultures. The dots I didn’t see outside of Native American culture and the claw marks on Jon’s cheeks I found mainly among Vikings. Because these all are an amalgamation of different cultures, we did them as face paint instead of tattoos because it seemed disrespectful otherwise. Not enough research went into it to be a proper representation of any one culture so paint was a better bet than a permanent body modification that is sacred to a number of cultures. The only thing that was meant to be a tattoo was the chin tattoo, which like I said, actually is from an amalgamation of cultures. Among the Freefolk (in this AU), dots on the cheeks are widespread, one of cultural mainstays of their people, and are generally a sign of peace, whereas the claws are meant to look intimidating and is applied to look like blood (Ygritte applies it for Jon) and is specifically used for military leaders. I really wanted to drive home the point that the goal with Jon’s whole look is to look fearsome.

I have so much more to say about Jon as King Beyond the Wall, how he negotiates with the Wall, the different rules he sets in place, how he sets up being King as a hereditary title once his daughter Bael is born, etc etc, but then I’d be here all day and approximately one person total read through all this. Oops! Ask in my inbox if you have any questions because I would love love love to answer them. All in all, shripscapi (Liesl) is so talented and she worked incredibly hard for me. She was extremely accommodating and changed as much stuff as I wanted. She never complained about the million times I decided something was not quite right and she sent me so many updates. I would recommend working with her to just about anybody. It was very cool what she was able to achieve and I got it in time for the holidays so I can enjoy my winter themed pfp on twt. So thank you from the bottom of my heart Liesl, and I hope everyone showers her with compliments because she deserves it. I also hope that people that don’t enjoy Ygritte very much can still appreciate the art and the concept of Jon as King Beyond the Wall. Hopefully I’ve gotten across how much I love and care for these characters to a chronically online degree and nobody accuses me of mischaracterizing them because that would make me!!!! very sad!!!

Bonus Jon with weirwood leaves:

[meanlikeachild]

oh nothing, just thinking about how Robb chose duty over love when he refused to trade Jamie for Sansa and Arya and got killed and how Jon chose love over duty when he was going to desert the night watch to go save his little sister from her abusive husband and he too got killed. Theres just no winning, whatever you chose.

[spooksier]

relistening to tma and losing my mind more with each episode. anyways. today we're talking about how there are three characters in the show who are meant to be/groomed to be "the chosen one" for some specific purpose (agnes for the lightless flame, gerry to carry on some esoteric bloodline, jon for the watcher's crown/the web's escape plan) and all three of them have that running theme of being completely powerless in every aspect of their lives despite being made to be something powerful. we never get agnes' own perspective on her own life, gerry dies and is kept in limbo for *years*, and jon is marked to be the antichrist from age 8, like all of them were used as tools rather than people and if you couple that with all three at some point expressing that their fantasy is to live a normal life and be a normal person but they were trapped by divinity......fucked up if true

[angelwingtrap]

A bird of suspiciously human-like sentience and symbolic dreams have been trying to get Jon’s attention RELENTLESSLY for 5 books straight and he is utterly clueless.

Meanwhile Theon has one (1) divine experience and is like “ohh I see there’s some shit going on here…the gods have plans for me…the ravens and the trees speak…they know my name…wow there sure a lot of ravens in the heart tree today��I’ll take the cue from the tree and find strength in myself to become Theon again to fufill my purpose”

[kitkats-and-kittens]

Damian loves all animals.

ALL animals.

This is cute and funny when his siblings catch him playing fetch with Titus or snuggling on the couch with Alfred the cat.

It’s not so cute and funny when they find the big-as-fuck dragon bat that he found when he was like 7 and just claimed as his?!?!

Like how do you just get a dragon bat?

It’s even less funny when they find out about the actual 20ft dragon he decided to adopt and name fucking Wiggles. Like you can sit on that things nose. It towers over you?!? It could quite literally consume all 5 feet of you in one bite and you named it Wiggles?!?!

It’s even worse when they realise all animals includes bugs.

Idk Damian just gives of obssssed with bug vibes.

Like he owns several habitats filled with ants. Probably a giant ass spider that gets loose one day and causes a whole ass lockdown since Damian is the only one anyone trusts to not get eaten by it.

They can’t do missions in any sort of area that could potentially be the habitat of any kind of wild life without locking him down and preventing him from picking up some feral beast because it was quote on quote ‘friend shaped’.

The indomitable human spirit is just Damian’s ability to adopt the most unadoptable creatures on the planet. Honestly probably off the planet as well. God forbid that child ever finds some vaguely lonely space alien dog that seems to have zero friends in site cause it’s coming home with him.

Ik Alfred is tried.

[tell-them-the-north-remembers]

If there is one line I like to over-analyze in the ASoIAF books it is a rather famous thought that goes inside Cat's head before her death. As the steel is close to her throat Cat thinks "No, don’t, don’t cut my hair, Ned loves my hair." And this line and her entire inner monologue is absolutely heart-breaking but one thing I fixate on is the actual sentence itself.

"Ned loves my hair."

Anyone who has read the books knows that Cat holds contempt for the fact that except for Arya, she has failed to give Ned children who look like him. It is also one of the reasons she dislikes Jon so much, because the mother of Jon (who she assumes to be Ned's bastard son) has managed to give Ned a child that looks just like him while she, his lawfully wedded wife gave birth to five of his children only for four of them to come out looking exactly like her. Red hair, blue eyes. Unlike Jon (and Arya) who share Ned's dark hair and dark eyes.

And knowing that it is so interesting to me that Cat's last thought about Ned (and her last thought ever) was that Ned loves her hair.

Because Ned loved her, he loved her hair, he loved her the way she was. And every time he looked at Robb, Sansa, Bran and Rickon he saw the reflection of the woman he loved, while Cat was so upset that they weren't all reflections of the man she loved.

Every time Ned ran his fingers through their hair, he ran his fingers through the hair of the woman he loved. He never resented Cat for the fact that four of his children didn't look like him, he loved that they looked like their mother, again, the woman he loved so much. He loved that they had the same hair he loved on Cat, and judging by it being her last thought Cat also knew that Ned loved her hair (and the way she looked), whether she ever came to the realization that Ned was perfectly happy with the way their children looked at all, or if she realized after he was dead and it was too late, it is unclear. But all those years she beat herself up over nothing.

Ned loved her the way she was, Ned loved his children the way they were, when they looked like him and when they didn't. Because when they didn't look like him, they looked like the love of his life, his darling wife.

And if the books decide to go with R+L=J it also adds another layer to Cat and Ned's relationship. Because Jon's mother was always a woman she didn't know but was still competing with in her mind for Ned's love for all these years. Turns out she didn't even exist. Turns out she didn't need to feel inferior to the woman Ned loved enough to not even talk about with her, no need to feel bad about the fact that she was able to give Ned a child that looked like him while Cat "failed".

At the end of the day, all the voices in her head making her feel insecure in her marriage never needed to be there, because everything she thought of as a problem with her were not problems at all for Ned. He was perfectly happy with her and their children.

[babylonfelldown]

I saw a tiktok about Jon and Theon and it made me remember how fuking insane their dynamic is

They're broken mirrors of each other: both of them just want the starks to see them as family, they want to feel wanted, they envy and hate each other.

Theon is a trueborn son of a great house, an heir even, but at the same time he's treated as a squire and a ward when convenient, (he helps Ned and Robb), he's also seen as a hostage and a threat, never quite trustworthy. He says repeatedly that he never felt wellcome by the Starks and that the only one to have any affection for him was Robb. Theon dreams to be wed to Sansa, not because he loves her, but because them he would be a son for Ned. He envies Jon because even being a bastard he's loved by Ned (ln a way neither Ned or his actual father loved him), his sibilings (all of them) love him, even if Lady Stark doesn't like him, he is family in Theon's eyes.

Jon is a bastard, he's a shame that must remain hidden, it doesn't matter how much Ned or his sibilings love him, he will never be a true Stark in the eyes of westerosi society. He is trusted but his loyality is always at question, Jon is a threat to Robb's claim in many peoples eyes, like he wants his brothers birthright, and the worst of it all is: he does. He desperately wants to be a trueborn son, but he loves Robb deeply, more than he could ever wish to be legitimate. He envies Theon because he is a trueborn son, he is an heir, he will get to have a wife and children of his own, legitimate children that won't be called names.

Truely insane dynamic of hatred and envy that culminates with both of them trying to one up each other on everything.

[winterprince601]

unfortunately for jon snow, the role of "dead girl haunting the narrative" is already occupied by his mother, father, brother, sister, uncle, grandmother and step mother x2 so he's going to have to be forcibly resurrected :/

[bidonicart]

Lyanna Stark and ser Gerold Hightower at the Tower of Joy.

A scenario conceived by @seaworthit, scripted by @nobodysuspectsthebutterfly and adapted into a comic by me.

where else to find me

[regainingparadise]

Relistening to TMA Season 5, I am again struck by how goddam badly Martin and Jon need couples counseling.

I love them both. I ship them very much. But oh lord they have issues

Like, these are two individuals who, under the very best of circumstances, would really need therapy both individually and together. They are both people with plentiful quantities of relational trauma from childhood that neither of them have worked through even the slightest bit.

And then you throw them into the apocalypse. And you add a metric fuck ton of guilt, helplessness, and the dynamics of being "The Antichrist and +1"?

On a surface level--Jon is in a perpetual state of information overload. Martin is in a perpetual state of "can you please just explain the basics of what's' going on in a given situation and not just say "it's complicated" or launch into a gruesome monologue"

But on a deeper level, their childhood relational traumas have left them each with opposing avoidant tendencies: Jon is unwilling to broach a difficult conversation, which leads him to hide information until he's confronted. Martin, on the other hand, has a finely honed ability to ignore information that he doesn't like until he no longer can hide from it.

Biggest example of their avoidance tendencies: Martin's Domain

Way early on, when we barely understand any of how the hellscape works, Jon mentions it, Martin shuts it down hard and deflects quickly with a bid for affection from Jon

Martin is in deliberate denial, but Jon admittedly wasn't particularly clear to start with.

"We all have a domain."

Jon means it, presumably, as "Me, You, and other 'Avatars.'" Jon is used to being grouped with those empowered by the Entities. Martin isn't. (see also: MAG185: Martin" Is that how these creatures see us now? As one of them?") But that's not what Jon says. And this is MAG167--they've only been through four domains, at least that we've seen. Jon is speaking from a place of knowledge, and assuming his listener has that same knowledge.

And when this issue comes up much later in MAG183, Martin has spent 17 episodes ignoring or forgetting that he has a domain, not letting that information in so that he has never processed it. (See also: Mag170: "Sometimes I wonder if I forget things on purpose. Easier not to think about them, I guess. Easier to just let them… slip away. They can’t hurt you if you don’t think about them.").

Martin confronts Jon on his avoidance (because while Martin may be good at ignoring things he doesn't like, he's far better at bringing up challenging topics), Jon is able to manage some A+ communication on his feelings and the genuine challenging of figuring out how to share upsetting information when he has All The Information, Martin accepts that. I just desperately want a therapist to be there and make them continue this conversation and practice ongoing good communication skills!

Though they resolve this, even though Jon has an explanation that makes sense...he was really leaving this conversation to the last minute. Would he have "[brought] it up at the crossroads" as he claims to Helen? Or would he have avoided it entirely, as she accuses, or waited till they were at the threshold, as he does with The Desolation and the Hunt, leaving Martin to confront terrifying situations without forewarning or planning or explanation.

Again, Jon kind of tried to bring up some of the potential issues with Basira and Daisy before entering the Hunt domain, but kept it Vague and Ominous ("Things aren't...good"). Martin took that vagueness as an opening to avoid engaging with potential bad news. The teensiest bit of therapy for either of them about their communication issues could have let Jon add "I know you're exited but FYI here are some specifics that you should know" and/or Martin go "I'm excited to see them but given that nothing is good right now, can you be more specific?"

Instead, Jon approaches difficult conversations by being Vague and Ominous, Martin gets snarky or passive-aggressive at the vagueness, upset or aggressively avoidant at the Ominousness, Jon closes back up like a turtle into his shell, and the conversation only comes back up when the situation has drastically escalated, leaving them both more upset.

Jon wants Martin to trust him, because explaining what he knows implicitly is an ordeal for him, and because his upbringing by his grandmother has suggested that communicating is generally unwanted and burdensome (See: MAG081 A Guest for Mr. Spider).

Martin wants to know what is going on, because he's in an awful hellscape of shifting rules about what can and cannot hurt them, completely dependent on a brand-new romantic partner for his survival and purpose, and also because his upbringing and coping mechanisms as a caretaker rely on him knowing enough to help, and his time as an archival assistant has given him some not-inconsiderable trauma about being left in the dark (See: MAG118 The Masquerade) (There's also another post in my head about how MAG118 primed Martin for both the Lonely and his development as a more confrontational character in S5)

All that to say.

Martin needs therapy to deal with the way he chooses not to absorb information he doesn't like. Jon needs therapy to understand that sometimes it's ok to bring up important topics even if the other person will be upset. They both need therapy to cope with all the guilt and helplessness around the apocalypse so they stop taking it out on each other. They need therapy together to learn how to work through their conflicting coping mechanisms.

[amber-laughs]

“She was looking at him the way she used to look at him at Winterfell, whenever he had bested Robb at swords or sums or most anything.” - Storm of Swords Jon XII

to

“He was better than me at everything.
Fighting and hunting and riding and girls.
Gods, the girls loved him.
I wanted to hate him, but I never could.” - Game of Thrones S4 E1

bothers me so bad. the robb/jon dynamic was butchered in a million ways but my least favorite was this. jon isn’t jealous because robb is better than him, jon is jealous bc he is better, or at least equal, but it will never matter because of his birth.

and this isn’t me sucking jon’s dick. i love this for robb’s development. he is so obviously insecure about being lord/king. imagine him wondering if people around him are disappointed that it’s him instead of his bastard brother. wondering if his father would have prefered jon. wondering if his mother wants jon gone because she doesn’t believe the lords will accept him if jon is standing next to him. wondering if maybe he wants jon gone too. both of them being wrapped up in insecurity and loving each other through it. GODDAMIT they could’ve done so much with that relationship but instead they cut and cut until viewers forgot they even knew each other

[grahamfolgersdeliciousnotebooks]

Thinking about Jon’s time with the Circus again. Thinking about what a month spent in a refrigerated warehouse would do (because it would have to be refrigerated, wouldn’t it? it’s meant to store waxworks), just how cold his skin would be. Do you think it even still felt like his skin? Do you think his fingers brushed the skin of his arm and felt only the inhuman chill of wax, and his arm received the touch of his hand and felt only the dead press of plastic?

Thinking about how thoroughly his time with the Stranger would have made him a stranger to himself.