#jocelyn penrose

[targsource]

TARGARYEN PORTRAITS: PART 7

by riotarttherite on twitter

featuring: Ser Jon Waters (1), Lady Jeyne Waters (2), Lord Ossifer Plumm (3), Lord Viserys Plumm (4), Lord Ronnel Penrose (5), Lord Robin Penrose (6), Lady Laena Penrose (7), Lady Jocelyn Penrose (8), Lady Joy Penrose (9), Ser Michael Manwoody (10)

[highgardenart]

Robin, Laena, Jocelyn & Joy Penrose

[coldraindropsss]

Laena Penrose, Jocelyn Penrose, Joy Penrose. Elaena Targaryen daughters

[dyannawynnedayne]

have you ever drawn elaena targaryen? i’d love to see your take on her! 🫶🏻

Kissing you anon thank you for the question!! I have drawn her once before here but wanted to consider her design some more.

Elaena Targaryen with her youngest daughters, Jocelyn and Joy Penrose, circa 200 AC

[bardsansa]

alrighty. doing a sisters series, both main series and f&b (in two chunks, i’m only one woman). so far the list is

sansa and arya, wynafryd and wylla, ashara and allyria, bethany and barbrey, catelyn and lysa, irri and jhiqui, val and dalla, the sand snakes, the mormont sisters, and the hightower sisters for main asoiaf. pls tell me if i’m missing anyone

for f&b, visenya and rhaenys, rhaena alysanne and jocelyn, alyssa maegelle and daella, saera viserra and gael, rhaenyra and helaena, baela and rhaena, maidenvault gals, serena and sansa stark, bethany and barba bracken, mya and gwenys rivers, laena jocelyn and joy penrose w jeyne waters, daella and rhae, and shaera and rhaelle. please tell me again if i should add anyone, esp non-targ women!

[atopvisenyashill]

No okay bc i was thinking about Rhea Royce and Daemon too, right, bc she’s an heiress so like-

I’ve mentioned this before but Lady Waynwood rules in her own right and all of her sons have her name. We know nothing about her husband, perhaps he was some wealthy Essosi noble and thus there was no family on the continent to be affronted at his children not having his name, maybe he was like second born and no one gave a shit, but regardless, she and Jacaerys (who was meant to take the name Targaryen once he was prince of dragonstone) are our only real examples here for ruling women who actually have children outside of dorne - because jeyne arryn never has children of her own so she never deals with the problem of “how do i navigate naming my kids as an heiress?”

DOES THIS MEAN DAEMON’S KIDS WOULDNT EVEN BE CALLED TARGARYENS❓

or does this mean Rhea is supposed to just be okay with the name Royce disappearing??? I do not fucking think so, so they’d likely do the split name thing like with Rhaenyra’s kids, although (and this is assuming Daemon manages to have even one let one two kids with her lmao) I do imagine Daemon having a single child out there that doesn’t have the name Targaryen really pisses him off.

The first names in this situation intrigue me. When Valyrians marry outside the family, their children tend to get at least some Valyrian names - Laena Penrose, Aemma Arryn, Viserys Plumm tho u could argue that was a purposeful insult too, Rhaego to some extent - and they usually marry back into the main branch - Jocelyn Baratheon, Laena & Laenor Velaryon, all the cousin swapping going on with Daeron’s grandkids, Elia Nymeros Martell (ish), potentially Aelinor Penrose as well - but at the same time, this house will descend from RHEA not Daemon, so the Valyrian name is likely to kinda die out after a generation or two for the main line, while the second born probably marries back into the main line. Like, the Penroses are named Phillip now, not Baelor or Laena, bc they don’t descend from Elaena on paper, they descend from her HUSBAND, from Ronnel. And while it’s likely Rhaenyra’s grandkids by Jacaerys would have Targaryen names, her grandkids by Lucerys would have Velaryon names, and crucially, all of Rhaenyra’s kids by Laenor have names Laenor picks because the husband picks. So Rhea’s son? gonna have a whack ass name like Baelon Royce. But Baelon Royce may want to pick a more Royce-ish name for his own heir, instead of a Targaryen one, and that’s gonna be. a conversation.

i think daemon is going to insist on his royce child marrying another valyrian and choosing another targaryen first name (even if they still keep the name royce). like, he is going to be the bitchiest sort of grandparent who just straight up won’t acknowledge the child’s real name if he doesn’t get his way here, at least while he’s alive.

IN THAT SAME VEIN, daemon is super valyria brained. if he has two girls or two boys with rhea it’s whatever but if he has a boy and a girl. i think this man is going to want his kids to marry. we are just going to have random royces fucking in the vale.

(i think he can be talked out of it easily enough if viserys just like, idk, promises the daughter to his eventual son or promises daemon’s son to rhaenyra AND LETS TALK ABOUT THAT SITUATION PLEASE).

and rhea in all this is like. fine you can name our kid baelon royce. fine our daughter can be named baela targaryen too. fine baelon can have personal arms that have a dragon on them. fine they can-no fuck you baelon and baela are not getting married i’m sending a raven to the king as we speak you fucking freak. what do you mean you’re sending rhaenyra to runestone viserys??

this woman’s life is a nightmare omg

but also THIS COULD HAVE HELPED SO MUCH AFTER SUMMERHALL. this is what these bitches get for incest marrying so much, no cousins to turn to when your main house dies. that’s called bad dynastic planning, read a history book daemon!!!!!

[ophelias-lamentation]

Princess Elaena Targaryen, daughter of Aegon III Targaryen and Daenaera Velaryon, wife to Ser Ossifer Plumm, Lord Ronnel Penrose, and Lord Michael Manwoody, mother to Jon and Jeyne Waters, Viserys Plumm, and Robin, Laena, Jocelyn, and Joy Penrose. Elaena was one of the sisters who was locked in the Maidenvault by her brother Baelor the Blessed. She was not a pretty girl, with her crowning beauty being her hair, when her brother locked her up she cut off her hair as protest.

[sarcasticsweetlara]

Daenerys would have been a good queen too, I think if Alysanne wanted her to be queen without getting stripped of her power by Jaehaerys, then Alysanne would have had to marry her to someone else, like a Velaryon or someone from one of the Great Houses.

Daenerys, Jocelyn and Rhaenys were the queens the people deserved but didn't get in the end.

Crown Princesses of Westeros part one (part two/part three)

Aerea Targaryen — Heiress to King Maegor I

Daenerys Targaryen — Heiress to King Jaehaerys I

Jocelyn Baratheon — Wife of Prince Aemon

Rhaenys Targaryen — Heiress to Prince Aemon

Laena Velaryon — Heiress to Princess Rhaenys

Baela Targaryen — Heiress to King Aegon III

Rhaena Targaryen — Heiress to King Aegon III

Daena Targaryen — Heiress to King Baelor I

Jena Dondarrion — Wife of Prince Baelor

Kiera of Tyrosh — Wife of Prince Valarr

[asoiaf-forum-rpg]

CHAOS IS A LADDER

⚔ Forum en préparation ⚔

Retrouvez les actualités juste ici

Les faceclaims et personnages sont désormais OUVERTS à la réservation !

rappel : les faceclaims du projet seront tous.te.s HUMAIN.E.S et nous n'autoriserons pas les avatars générés par intelligence artificielle. Les personnages devront tous. être représentés par des acteur.trice.s et/ou des cosplayeur.euse.s. Iels doivent également être âgé.e.s de 21 ans et plus (et ce, même si iels ont joué dans l'une des deux séries télévisées de l'Univers HotD ou GoT). Nous n'autoriserons pas les influenceur.euse.s, pour les mannequins nous ne sommes pas vraiment favorable sauf si iel présentent des ressources de type "neutre" ou avec une "vibe médiévale", dans le cas contraire nous nous autorisons le droit de refuser pour éviter tout anachronisme au niveau du forum.

n'hésitez pas à checker la liste de fc et/ou films et séries pour vous donner un peu d'inspiration : ici (vous pouvez la demander en mp si vous n'êtes ni sur le discord ni sur le forum PRD)

FC Réservés

Anya Chalotra

Carolina Porqueddu

Charlie Hunnam

Daisy Ridley

David Oakes

Elle Fanning

Elliot Knight

Emma D'Arcy

Fabien Frankel

Hannah Dodd

Henry Cavill

Holliday Grainger

Jordan Renzo

Kieran Burton

Kit Harington

Mahesh Jadu

Millie Brady

Nassim Lyes

Phia Saban

Rosie Huntington-Whiteley

Salma Hayek

Sherouk Farid

Sybilla Deen

Tom Glynn-Carney

Travis Fimmel

Personnages Réservés :

Aalyra Dalt

Aelora Targaryen

Aerion Targaryen

Benjen Stark

Daella Targaryen

Daenerys Targaryen

Daenora Targaryen

Bennifer Duncan Nerbosc

Dyanna Dayne

Irene Solverre

Jocelyn Penrose

Maekar Targaryen

Mariah Martell

Nymeria Martell

Roger Reyne

Shaïra Astre des Mers

Trystan Dayne

Tywald Lannister

Valarr Targaryen

[amnevitahdrawsstuff]

Princess Ceryse Hightower, wife to King Maegor

Princess Rhaella Targaryen (WIP), unmarried

Princess Aerea Targaryen, unmarried

Princess Daenerys Targaryen, unmarried

Princess Jocelyn Baratheon, wife to Prince Aemon Targaryen

Princess Alyssa Targaryen, sister-wife to Prince Baelon Targaryen

Princess Maegelle Targaryen (WIP), unmarried

Princess Daella Targaryen, wife to Lord Rodrik Arryn

Princess Saera Targaryen

Princess Viserra Targaryen, unmarried

Princess Gael Targaryen, unmarried

Princess Rhaenys Targaryen, wife to Lord Corlys Velaryon

Princess Rhea Royce (WIP), wife to Prince Daemon Targaryen

Princess Laena Velaryon, wife to Prince Daemon Targaryen

Princess Baela Targaryen, wife to Alyn Velaryon

Princess Rhaena Targaryen, wife to Corwyn Corbray and Garmund Hightower

Princess Daena Targaryen, wife to King Baelor

Princess Rhaena Targaryen, unmarried

Princess Elaena Targaryen, wife to Lords Ossifer Plumm, Ronnel Penrose, and Michael Manwoody

Princess Daenerys Targaryen (WIP), wife to Prince Maron Martell

Princess Rohanne of Tyrosh (WIP), wife to Prince Daemon Blackfyre

Princess Jenna Dondarion (WIP), wife to Prince Baelor Targaryen

Princess Alys Arryn (WIP), wife to Prince Rhaegel

Princess Kiera of Tyrosh (WIP), wife to Prince Valarr and Prince Daeron

Princess Vaela Targaryen (WIP), unmarried

Princess Aelora Targaryen (WIP), sister-wife to Prince Aelor

Princess Daenora Targaryen (WIP), wife to Prince Aerion

Princess Daella Targaryen (WIP)

Princess Rhae Targaryen (WIP)

Princess Jenny of Oldstones (WIP), wife to Prince Duncan Targaryen

Princess Rhaelle Targaryen (WIP), wife to Ormund Baratheon

Princess Elia Martell (WIP), wife to Prince Rhaegar Targaryen

Princess Rhaenys Targaryen (WIP), unmarried

[horizon-verizon]

TG loves to criticize Aegon's prophecy, because they say that it only feeds that Targaryens think they have a divine right to rule, if I remember it was GRRM who put this in the series, so if the author put it it's because he must be saying yes… They have some divine right to rule

*EDITED POST* (5/8/24 -- included list of non Andal-considered incest and how the Doctrine was for Jaehaerys & Alysanne to marry/the dynasty to follow a Valyrian custom, not for blood purity, since blood purity rules you cannot marry to "muddy" the lineage)

I don't think it's "divine right to rule" so much as they were necessary for all humans to survive this magical catastrophe. "Divine right" means that the gods allowed or created you to rule either in their stead or to uphold the "land's" values so no one but a royal (sometimes not even then, just the monarch) can legitimately argue or seriously question them. that they can't be held accountable by any "earthly" authority: peasants, aristocrats, the Pope sometimes, etc. It's an argument many absolute rulers like the French kings of the 17th-18th century, Henry VIII, James I/VI, etc. used to justify why they should rule. An argument that they developed from the already present belief that God afforded "earthly" power to kings and spiritual power to the Pope/Church.

The Targs are humans with strong ties to magic (thematically AND physically) and the ability to ride dragons, but having magic and being religious are not always mutually inclusive. Jaehaerys uses the cultural element of the Faith, the extant Andal aristocratic idea of a ruler's divinity to justify his family's rule/his marriage to Alysanne and make enemies of the state anyone who opposes him/the marriage/the dynasty because the Targs were still seen as just as subject to the Andal- descendants' interpretations of divinity, incest, etc. And he made sure that dragonriding was the indicator of divinity or that the gods sought to make the Targs "worthy" to lead through them being "bestowed" these powerful beasts. It tries to legitimize dragon riding through a different interpretation of an already present religious/institutional principle/arguing religion and the gods' allowing them to rule AND justifies his marriage to Alysanne (love and personal aspect), secures the Targs' continuing to follow their own Valyrian customs just as Northmen do theirs and Andals do theirs--those customs, that like Andal/FM customs, allow incest for power consolidation (politics), as all aristocratic marriage customs have done in both fiction and real life.

The Doctrine never forbade the "mixing" of blood (which is actually blood purist), Targs marrying/having sex with those outside of their own family, etc. The Targs often did marry "out", or those who didn't marry a sibling/uncle-aunt:

Rhaena and Androw Farman (m)/Elissa Farman (s/l/i)

Aenys and Alyssa Velaryon

Maegor and 5 of his wives, the first being a Hightower

Aemon the Prince and Jocelyn Baratheon

Daella and Rodrick Arryn

Viserra and Theomore Manderly (engaged to be)

Viserys I and Aemma Arryn

Rhaneyra and Laenor

Rhaenyra and Harwin (s/l/i)

Daemon and Rhea Royce

Daemon and Laena Velaryon

Baela and Alyn Velaryon

Rhaena and Corbray/that Hightower

Maekar I and Dyanna Dayne

Rhaegar and Elia/Lyanna

Aerys I and Aelinor Penrose

Daemon Blackfyre and Rohanne of Tyroseh

Aegon III and Jaehaera

Aegon III and Daenaera Velaryon

Aegon IV and his various mistresses (s/l/i)

Elaena and all her 3 husbands (m); plus her affair with Alyn Velaryon (s/l/i)

Daeron II and Mariah Martell

Daenerys [II] and Maron Martell

Aegon V and Betha Blackwood

Rhaelle and Ormund Baratheon

Duncan and Jenny of Oldstones

Duncan and Kiera of Tyrosh

Valarr and Kiera of Tyrosh

Rhaegal and Alys Arryn

Magic and religious ties to it or priests (esp for the god R'hollor) using magic is the done-deal fact in the ASoIaF universe, but there is a skepticism of religion generated from several events in both the main series, and the accompanying works (Fire and Blood and Egg-Dunk's series) where people go through or witness atrocities and they look kinda askance at their gods. Or they doubt their ability to rise to whatever occasion that they think or were told to do in the name of /supported by whatever god(s). We the readers are meant to realize and be skeptical of religion's influence, not believe the Targs morally or ethically deserve the throne IN GENERAL, or to lead just because they had dragons.

In other words, let's be careful about how we characterize the Targs' rule. Yes, people who say they were colonizers or imperialists in Westeros are dumb. Yes, those who argue that the Targs are worse than other Westerosi nobles/former kingdoms/are in some sort of class struggle with literally every lord in Westeros in various periods are not working with a full basket of white matter. Yes, most green stans are totally in denial and refuse to learn how to read. However, the large point behind our criticizing these arguments is to show how ubiquitous power-seeking is for aristocrats of any and all lineages/backgrounds.

[targsource]

TARGSOURCE CHARACTER GUIDE (part 2)

Queen Consorts

• Queen Alyssa Velaryon

• Queen Ceryse Hightower

• Queen Alys Harroway

• Queen Tyanna

• Queen Elinor Costayne

• Queen Jeyne Westerling

• Queen Aemma Arryn

• Queen Alicent Hightower

• Queen Myriah Martell

• Queen Aelinor Penrose

• Queen Betha Blackwood

Spouses

• Androw Farman

• Lady Jocelyn Baratheon

• Lord Rodrik Arryn

• Lord Corlys Velaryon

• Lady Rhea Royce

• Ser Laenor Velaryon

• Lady Laena Velaryon

• Lord Alyn Velaryon

• Ser Corwyn Corbray

• Lady Larra Rogare

• Lady Jena Dondarrion

• Lady Dyanna Dayne

• Lady Alys Arryn

• Ser Michael Manwoody

• Lady Kiera

• Jenny

• Ser Jeremy Norridge

• Princess Elia Martell

• Lady Lyanna Stark

• Khal Drogo

Houses

• House Velaryon (the Velaryon children of Baela and Lord Alyn Velaryon)

• House Hightower (Garmund Hightower and the Hightower daughters of Rhaena)

• House Longwaters (Ser Jon Waters and Lady Jeyne Waters, the twins of Elaena and Lord Alyn Velaryon, and Jon's children)

• House Plumm (Lord Ossifer Plumm and Elaena's son, Lord Viserys Plumm)

• House Blackfyre (the children and descendants of Ser Daemon Blackfyre and his wife Lady Rohanne)

• House Penrose (Lord Ronnel Penrose and the Penrose children of Elaena)

• House Martell (Prince Maron Martell and the Martell children of Daenerys)

• House Tarth (Daella's husband and the Tarth children of Daella)

• House Baratheon (Lord Ormund Baratheon and Rhaelle's son, Lord Steffon Baratheon, and his wife Lady Cassana Estermont)

Great Bastards

• Ser Daemon Blackfyre

• Ser Aegor Rivers, Bittersteel

• Lady Mya Rivers

• Lady Gwenys Rivers

• Ser Brynden Rivers, Bloodraven

• Lady Shiera Seastar

Dragonseeds

• Addam, rider of Seasmoke

• Hugh, rider of Vermithor

• Ulf, rider of Silverwing

Paramours/Parents of Bastards

• Lady Elissa Farman

• Ser Harwin Strong

• Alys Rivers

• Lady Barba Bracken

• Lady Melissa Blackwood

• Lady Serenei

[highgardenart]

Princess Elaena Targaryen,

Her lover Lord Alyn Velaryon; and their children, Ser Jon Waters and Jeyne Waters.

Her first husband, Lord Ossifer Plumm and their son, Lord Viserys Plumm.

Her second husband, Lord Ronnel Penrose and their children, Lord Robin Penrose, Lady Laena Penrose, Lady Jocelyn Penrose, and Lady Joy Penrose.

Her third and final husband, Ser Michael Manwoody.

[elaena]

Girl, it’s sooo nice to find another Elaena stan. Which one of her children is your favorite? I know that we know little about them, but still

Based on my headcanons that are based on nothing I'd go with Jocelyn Penrose lol in my head 👉🏻 🧠 she's this spoiled vain all about that court life thinking big about her future type of child that has some sort of beef with her mom because I headcanon elaena as strict and stoic. I also have a soft spot for Viserys because he was her first non-oakenfist child so he's trying to live up to their standards but he's very. Average. And has a lot of temper explosions which sux for him and Elaena because that doesn't help beat the Aegon the 4th bastard allegations I fear

[tell-them-the-north-remembers]

I am REALLY obsessed with this topic so here it is with the list of every non-royal woman ever married to a king or a prince after the Conquest:

-Women married into the royal family don't take their husbands' names. Cersei is the Queen Consort and as such she keeps her last name. Every Queen in the history of the Iron Throne has kept their last name.

Queen Alyssa Velaryon, wife of King Aenys I Targaryen

Queen Ceryse Hightower, wife of King Maegor I Targaryen

Queen Alys Harroway, wife of King Maegor I Targaryen

Queen Tyanna of Pentos, wife of King Maegor I Targaryen

Queen Elinor Costayne, wife of King Maegor I Targaryen

Queen Jeyne Westerling, wife of King Maegor I Targaryen

Queen Aemma Arryn, wife of King Viserys I Targaryen

Queen Alicent Hightower, wife of King Viserys I Targaryen

Queen Daenaera Velaryon, wife of King Aegon III Targaryen

Queen Myriah Martell, wife of King Daeron II Targaryen

Queen Aelinor Penrose, wife of King Aerys I Targaryen

Queen Betha Blackwood, wife of King Aegon V Targaryen

Queen Cersei Lannister, wife of King Robert Baratheon

(going into the WOTFK territory now where I will use the title King and Queen regardless of recognition)

Queen Margaery Tyrell, wife of King Joffrey Baratheon (very shortly) and wife of King Tommen Baratheon (if we recognize Renly Baratheon as king, she was his queen too)

Queen Selyse Florent, wife of King Stannis Baratheon

Queen Jeyne Westerling, wife of King Robb Stark (the King in the North)

The same goes for wives of princes too, they NEVER take their husbands' names or the title of "princess" unless born into it either.

Lady Jocelyn Baratheon, wife of Prince Aemon Targaryen

Lady Rhea Royce, wife of Prince Daemon Targaryen

Lady Laena Velaryon, wife of Prince Daemon Targaryen

Lady Larra Rogare, wife of King Viserys II Targaryen (before his ascension)

Lady Jena Dondarrion, wife of Prince Baelor 'Breakspear' Targaryen

Lady Alys Arryn, wife of Prince Rhaegel Targaryen

Princess Elia Martell, wife of Prince Rhaegar Targaryen

None of the 23 women listed in here are ever officially referred to by their husbands' last name. Thus making it very VERY likely that when married into the royal family you simply keep your last name.

I have a question: why is Catelyn a Stark when Cersei is still a Lannister?

[atopvisenyashill]

Can you tell us more about your female Joffrey/Cersei only has daughters au?

okay so i can’t remember if it was @chena-h or @shunnedmorlock bc both of them were talking about how cersei would lose her mind over this, but i DO think there’s a high chance cersei feels her daughter is the ymbq. i think she’d become terrified that her oldest is going to kill her two youngest and herself. i think jaime does not take her hostile turn towards their oldest seriously (the way he doesn’t take her hostility towards tyrion seriously literally until tyrion is on death’s row).

not concrete yet but i think i’ve decided on jocelyn, myrcella, and *coughs* lucinda or tyana for the names. i think cersei is clearly picking names that are westerlander And stormlander names as a dig at robert (we Don’t have any other myrcella’s so it’s hard to be sure but the westerlands love to throw a bunch of e’s and y’s in their names and the stormlanders love a three syllable (cassana, ravella, argella, cassandra, cyrenna, johanna, etc etc) so it feels like a safe assumption to make). Jocelyn is common enough while also stormlander associated, also it’s a J haha. I haven’t found a T name for a girl that crosses over both except tya lannister/tyana wylde, but i Do know there’s lucinda crossover, and the joke of like, tommen being named for a lannister king but being so young & sweet and unable to live up to that name vs lucinda being given the most old lady name imaginable is funny to me. wish we had more lannister queen names 😭

i think after daughter number three, jon arryn sits all three baratheon boys down and goes “one of you needs to have a fucking son, i just finally did it, now one of you needs to please for the love of the seven” and robert goes WHAT THE FUCK DID YOU JUST SAY. ARE THE LORDS CLAIMING THEY *WOULDNT* FOLLOW MY DAUGHTER? THEYRE GONNA PASS HER UP FOR WHOMST EXACTLY. A FUCKING PENROSE? THAT NEWBORN VELARYON? FOR THAT DRAGONSPAWN ACROSS THE SEA? I DONT THINK SO! and before jon can finish his sentence Robert is officially naming Jocelyn the heir to the iron throne TO BE QUEEN when he dies, and everyone who doesn’t like it can suck shit.

I think jon can talk robert into putting a little clause in there that says like “if i have a true born son, he’ll go before Jocelyn but if that time never comes, Jocelyn WILL succeed me as Queen of the Seven Kingdoms and the crown will pass to her first born son.” but robert is really serious about like,,,, regardless of if stannis or renly have a son, it’s ROBERT’S KID that comes next, not one of those two dweebs.

Tywin imo thinks Cersei Fucked Up Somehow. He’s not saying he won’t back Jocelyn, but he IS saying if Cersei had just had a boy, there wouldn’t be this problem. He's blaming this on Cersei and really mad because of course Genna wrote him a mean letter saying if Tywin refuses to acknowledge Tyrion as heir, there’s always Cersei and her girls and it pissed him off so much he sat in silence gaping at Kevan for three straight hours.

Tyrion "History Understander And Enjoyer" Lannister finds this hilarious. He literally cannot stop laughing at how absurd this all is.

Jocelyn…..okay so the way i see joffrey is joffrey is a kid just RULED by his first, base instinct. his instincts, his core emotions, tell him to love and trust both robert and cersei, and imo he twists himself into a MONSTER to try to appeal to both of them. no one else matters - not his siblings, not his uncle, not his grandfather, not the realm. he needs to be the sort of vicious person they could BOTH be proud of, he needs to be BETTER THAN THEM BOTH AT VIOLENCE, so he absorbs all of their faults and none of their virtues.

ANYWAYS, so this translating to a girl - who idolizes her violent father, loves & resents her manipulative and miserable mother, suspects but would NEVER say out loud the truth about her paternity, fucking HATES all of her uncles - imo means she’s got a reputation for being unpleasant & hypercritical, can’t hold onto a lady or a maid because she straight up slaps them when they fuck up, sexually humiliates the court fool (hashtag serving saera realness), like i think she is known for being Gorgeous And Difficult. i’m trying to think of a comparison. A mean girl but not nearly as charming because under all that vileness is a sullen little shithead who can and will throw a tantrum to get her way. Regina George but significantly more pathetic. Cordelia Chase without the heart. All the popularity of Quinn Fabray all the pathetic hysterics of Rachel Berry none of the intelligence of either girl.

Robert does Not enjoy her for a long time, same as canon. She looks exactly like Cersei, she’s catty and mean to everyone around her like Cersei, and while she quickly dropped the habit, she had a worrying violent streak as a little girl that Robert misliked so much he nearly beat her to death over it. It wasn’t cute and outdoorsy like Lyanna, it was the exact same cat killing shit. Cersei really loves and gets along with her in the beginning. She’s not the sweet perfect daughter Myrcella is, but she’s a mini Cersei, and Cersei loves having An Ally Against Robert.

THEN. She’s named heir and this dynamic completely flips. Cersei becomes distant, paranoid, essentially treating her like she does Sansa, with a sort of threatening affection, and Robert doesn’t become a doting father overnight but he DOES expand her education, and let her be Jon Arryn’s cupbearer, and drunkenly rants to her about his battle days. Cersei becomes determined to have a son.

HOWEVER. When her sadistic streak doesn’t go away by like 10, I do think Robert flips on her again. He has no fucking intention of unnaming her, especially because he hasn’t had another son, but I think a girl with a hard time controlling her temper would stand out in a worse way, and Robert would worry if she’s TOO much like her mother, especially when he can’t get her to hold onto a lady to give her another influence. the thing is, now that cersei is convinced jocelyn is going to destroy her, she doesn’t have another parent to run to. does she cling harder to robert, turn to someone else? if sandor is still her personal guard, i mean jesus fucking christ how is THAT going.

Been going back and forth on if this means Stannis brings Shireen to court. That Robert & Jon, hoping to straighten Jocelyn out, would try to give her a companion in sweet Shireen.

I’ve also been debating like,,, who Robert would betroth her to once Jon Arryn is killed (because Petyr & Lysa are still doing their thing, so even regardless of if, maybe, Stannis tries slightly harder to have a son, and winds up having another kid, or Cersei & Jaime have yet another daughter even after their third, Jon Arryn will still die and there’s no one else Robert would trust as Hand than Ned. Altho what i AM debating is whether this speeds the plot up a bit more by Robert asking for a betrothal AND a lady’s companion early? Because I think Jocelyn becomes a problem Jon wants to unseat much quicker, so he and Stannis wind up suspecting something is up with her a little quicker?? idk i’m still thinking it out). BUT ANYWAYS. Because Robb is three years older, and Bran is four years younger, and i’m kind of assuming they’d do a Myriah thing instead of a Laenor thing bc Robb has two younger brothers? So Robb would no longer inherit Winterfell, Bran would? Would they WANT a husband four years younger rather than three years older?

anyways that’s like, my characterization. i’m really getting into the weeds with this one because i kind of love it. there’s two like, forks in the road i think i could go here and i’ve been debating between them -

I’m just unsure if Jon doesn’t stumble on the incest earlier. It might not be TOO much earlier, i mean joffrey is only 12 when jon dies but a year? two years? especially if cersei has another blond haired green eyed daughter. if he can genuinely put the pieces together faster, before he starts talking about sending sweetrobin away, that’s a big change. but if he figures it out faster AND is also like “hey can i send sweetrobin to your place i know he’s like five but things are gonna get dicey here and also i want to get him away from lysa” that means agot still essentially happens (the catalyst of it) just earlier.

on the other hand, does robert approach ned about a betrothal earlier because of the inheritance issue with robb? does BRAN grow up heir to winterfell and robb with the knowledge he may one day be king consort of westeros? which also leads me to how robert would approach this - would he take the excuse to visit Ned to ask for this so they can hammer out the details? does robert just fully give up on the idea of having a son at some point, and THATS when he asks Ned, completely independently of whatever scheming Jon Arryn is doing?

so there’s one au where lysa still offs jon arryn, and agot plays out but with robert asking for robb, sansa, and arya to come south with ned bc robb is gonna marry jocelyn.

and then of course there’s another branch where jon exposes the incest earlier and…would varys try to off him? would lf take the opportunity to sow some chaos be ensuring the lannisters stay in power? the moment robert knows, he’s storming cersei’s rooms to murder them all, but if cersei finds out beforehand, she and jaime are going to REACT.