#jia baoyu

[meraki-yao]

So I found this on Weibo and I couldn't stop laughing. This is incredibly niche but I feel the need to share and explain this to my friends on this side.

So the bottom half is the photos that we initially thought were the royal suitor photos before the movie came out, then realized it was in the texting montage, then confirmed by Matthew that this actually isn't Alex and Henry, it was Taylor and Nick chilling between takes.

NOW, the photo on top is a still from 1987 TV show adaptation of one of the four Chinese Classics: "The Dream of the Red Chamber". That is the main couple reading another classical Chinese novel (yes this is very meta) "Romance of the Western Chamber" together, and I think this book that they're reading is the first romance novel/love story to have the couple be in starkly different social standings yet be together in the end.

This isn't a case of parallel in the same sense as my posts putting firstprince and Rapunzel x Eugene or Simba x Nala or Jack x Rose together and finding similarities. In fact, the couple from Red Chamber is nothing like firstprince or Taylor and Nick, not even remotely close, and their relationship ended in tragedy: spoilers, the girl died of a broken heart and the boy lost the will to live and became a monk.

But the point here is that this pair? This is our culture's Romeo and Juliet, our Pyramus and Thisbe. This scene in particular, this imagery of them reading in the garden together, has the same significance as the balcony scene in Romeo and Juliet. Like, if you ask a Chinese person for an imagery from classical literature that depicts love, this is the image most people will say.

AND SOMEHOW THIS PHOTO OF TAYLOR AND NICK THAT WE ALL THOUGHT WAS ALEX AND HENRY LOOKS EXACTLY THE SAME AS IT

This is the most random connection and it's definitely a stretch but as someone who cried over the ship in the top half at the age of 11 I am so fucking amused by this comparison

[stupidiocy-somewhere-else]

Hong Lu: The Vessel Theory

(disclaimer; true to form, long as shit)

Yep. I’m back. This is happening.

I just wanna say first and foremost, I have to give the MOTHER of all shoutouts to Netz (@beanie0bird) for both helping with the theory as a whole and hearing me out throughout its gradual development. He's my Hong Lu expert and I absolutely would not have gotten here without him. ily bestie 🫂🫂🫂🫂🫂🫂🫂🫂 /p

I should also probably shout out one @lu-is-not-ok, their own Hong Lu theories were a pretty big inspiration for this one and I encourage y’all to check out their posts, they go way more in-depth than I think I’ll ever be capable of lol

OK, theory time. The Vessel Theory at its core is that Hong Lu is, in actuality, some kind of body double or clone of either his original Jia Baoyu 1.0 body, but with 1.0's trademark Jade incorporated into his eye. The idea was essentially brought around so the Jia family could keep their Most Specialest Lil Boy™️ around for forever, and every time a Baoyu 1.0 dies, they make another vessel for his Jade, take the Jade out, put it back in the new vessel, and act like nothing ever happened because they're rich and rich people can just get away with shit like that. My guess as to what Xichun and Wei are doing out and about is that the method used to bring Hong Lu into the world is faulty in some way, which would explain why it goes dim in C7, that's probably a hardware bug of sorts. Either that, or maybe Baoyu 1.0 is starting to deteriorate himself after so many body replacements. It also explains why Hermann roped Jia Huan into her endeavors; the Human Dough from Canto 6 definitely shows Hermann's interest in tampering with the boundaries of mortality in some sense.

The catch is, though, Baoyu 1.0 – his consciousness trapped in the Jade, at least – is still aware of all of this, even though he can't control the bodies he gets inserted into; though I can imagine his vessels can at least feel his presence or thoughts in some quantifiable shape or form. Explains that little "am I the dreamer" monologue from Hong Lu, and why the name of his Canto in other languages can be translated as "All I can do is watch it"; that's all Baoyu 1.0 can do while his consciousness is stuck in the Jade.

Speaking of which, Hong Lu, when he's starting out as the new Baoyu 1.0 vessel, isn't really adjusting super well to the expectations of being the new prodigal son, not to mention the abusive siblings, but Granny's a little nicer to him and reckons "Ah he probably needs to get to know his surroundings a little bit first, tell ya what sonny, you go out and see the world then come back and we'll see how you fare then" and sends the lad on his way. He bumps into Faust at some point. The rest is history. At least, I *think* it's his grandma who gives him the whole sightseeing mission; could be wrong.

Now then, as for what I think this all means for Hong Lu is going, Netz and I had some hiccups piecing this together, I don't think either of us have a concrete grip on the overarching theme of the book ourselves. My prevailing theory is that because the book itself ends with Jia Baoyu 1.0 becoming a monk and isolating himself, and OUR Baoyu 1.0 is already doing that to some degree in the Jade, Hong Lu's arc will be coming more out of his shell and opening up to the Sinners more about his emotions and opinions. He stops living in a dream world where he doesn't have to worry about anything, and can now utilize his experiences in The City to live life beyond the boundaries of what his family wants for him. I also really hope he pushes back against his abusers some, just to bring it all home. Maybe we get the actual Baoyu 1.0 out of his Jade and he takes over for Hong Lu? Maybe Hong Lu has to move on without Baoyu 1.0? Guess we'll just have to find out.

Again, I can't say I have a whole lot of evidence from, say, in-game dialogue or cross-referencing DOTRC to back me up, but then again, I have a Hong Lu expert on speed dial, it's not like I *can't* find anything.

What I *DO* have, however, is EGOs.

Starting with the big one; Land Of Illusion. My hypothesis is that the EGO art is a hyperbolic depiction of Baoyu 1.0 languishing in the Jade, with the rest of the world lying just outside with him now unable to affect it in any way. It also doesn't help that the walls of the room pictured are red; he's literally trapped in a Red Chamber. That's his dream world in the book supposedly; Baoyu 1.0's retreating to his happy place to escape the pressure of always having to be the Most Specialest Jia Ever:tm:. Five Gloom for wallowing in his melancholic solitude, and a Sloth on the side for willfully ignoring his forced responsibilities.

Either that, or it could be depicting Baoyu 1.0 at some point during his FIRST life, before all the body double shenanigans.

The rest of these will be shorter, I promise.

I've seen analyses for Ambling Pearl that describe the Abno as representing "a place made by you and for you," so there's a dead-on hint right there. Can't say I have much else, but at the very least I like how a common theme with the Abno is that it often just gets bored and walks away if you don't directly do anything to it. More on that in a second.

Netz helped me out with Soda; it's escapism for one, and apparently in LobCorp, Wellcheers rewards you for getting good research results on it. That definitely lines up with having to maintain the prodigal son image, at least to me.

Dimension Shredder represents a lot of things, but chief among them to me is a feeling of being lost. It's a little vague, sure, but I can definitely see Baoyu 1.0 not knowing what to do with his life given how he's not in control of it anymore. That, and Hong Lu was *literally* sent to wander around The City to get more used to it. Netz also tells me it represents not being able to keep up a facade, which DEFINITELY scans, although I couldn't tell you how the Abno represents that lol.

Roseate Desire — Rosie, as Netz and I call it — represents Baoyu 1.0's repressed and locked-away emotions, especially given that his mouth is tied up in the EGO art.

Lasso is… fairly loose, all things considered, though I do think there are some ties specifically to the apple from Rose Hunter's encounter. I'm sure we all know what it's implied that apple will become later, and Rose Hunter is actively enforcing that prophecy. An aspect of the EGO is being willing to let bad things happen so long as you feel it's what is best. Granted, in Baoyu 1.0's case, him letting the siblings treat his vessels like shit is beyond his volition, but a clue's a clue. Plus, if nothing else, we can always tie it back to Hong Lu and how nonchalant he seems to be regarding his family and the abuse they put him through in the past.

Lastly there's my personal favorite, Frog Lu (AKA Cavernous Wailing). There's… a lot, lmao.

One: Disobedience. I mean, I reckon getting sent off by your gramgram might go against the family grain some if they had no idea about it. That, and as we've established, Baoyu 1.0 is getting a little tired of the pressure to be perfect all the time.

Two: Obeying the wishes of family after said disobedience. This one I'm a tiny bit fuzzier on, but you could say that Baoyu 1.0 still does feel love for his family, or at least his elders, despite all he's been through, the hangup is he wants to express it in his own way without being forced into it.

Three: Wanting space to tackle your emotions yourself. This is where I was going with that thing about Ambling Pearl wandering off. Leave it alone, it leaves you alone. Let the toad cry, and you get an EGO gift. Baoyu 1.0 stays in the Jade and is thus the only person who can actually grapple with his feelings. Hell, he gets sent out into The City *alone* in an attempt to better his understanding. This man just wants a safe space to cry, goddamn it.

I’ll definitely be developing this further along as we go through the next two Intervallos.

[maggiecheungs]

Top tip! you can defeat feudalism by hanging out with girls and being transgender

[carrotanikerok]

SOMEONE TELL ME IF THERE IS A DREAM OF THE RED CHAMBER ALIVE FANDOM HERE PLEASE I NEED CONTENT ANYONE?????

[lu-is-not-ok]

Very normal about the literal translation of Canto 8's title and the subtitle text on the teaser image from the stream.

[player-1]

Oh boy, I sure can't wait for Intervallo 7.5, where the bus goes on yet another wacky roadtrip while the gang goes to Hong Lu's home district and learn about his extremely complex family dynamic and the many many references to the original novel, it's multiple remakes, and/or the series adaptation.

The next Walpurgis is most likely the Safety Team with Netzach as the next Announcer; and the next LobCorp IDs might connect to Abnormalities of denial, blissful ignorance, or the constricting force of family (Queen of Hatred, Queen Bee, Void Dream).

Even if the Sinners adjust to the fact that one of their members is a Second Kindred Bloodfiend, everyone keeps eyeing Outis just in case she tries to kill Don mentally or physically. She's still salty about the "betrayal" of having a definite threat in their ranks and were possibly waiting to backstab them at any moment (...Did something happen with Eurylochus, Outis?).

And even if she's also adjusting to a modernish life without the fanatic belief in Fixers, Don Sancho Quixote the Second reads them the riot act on their multiple attempts to prove she's a "real vampire" and committing elder abuse: shining light in her eyes or putting her in direct sunlight, putting garlic in her food, Dead Butterfly's coffin and Hundred Sins cross mace in her face cause Christian symbol or possible vamp bed, chasing her with a water bottle or spray bottle, so much water, so much water...

[lesbworth]

shitty chaidai lesbian blingee for all your chaidai lesbian blingee needs

[ghost-of-kreacher]

could you imagine the fucking brain blast i had where kjh mentioned that there was going to be a collab on the stream a while back

and my mind went straight to fnaf for some fucking reason cuz of the new video that dual process theory released

then i realized that if somehow fnaf was indeed the collab, Ryoshu would be the most likely candidate for a Michael Afton ID

spoilers in the tags for canto vii, i guess

[swdgf]

certain qidian authors shld start a side hustle writing dnmei actually 🙂‍↕️

[voidfragments]

ahh what the hell. hong lu opinion tierlist. as you can see there is not much hate in their heart

[panvani]

WHY DIDN'T THEY NAME HIM JIA BAOYU

[thirrith]

A guide to Dream of the Red Chamber for English speakers

I've been posting about a book called Dream of the Red Chamber for a while. I'm kinda obsessed with it but the tags here on tumblr are pretty much barren. I want to get more people to be interested in it, so here's something more informative with minimal screaming.

Dream of the Red Chamber (紅樓夢) is a 18th century Chinese novel by Cao Xueqin. It isn't very well-known outside of the Sinophone aka the Chinese-speaking world, whereas where I come from it's considered a masterpiece and classic and is so well-known and holds so much cultural significance even the people who haven't necessarily read the book make references to it - like, basically everybody knows about the book. It certainly deserves to be known and loved by more people - that's why I'm making a post about it. This post is NOT going to be an attempt to cover everything, though, because there is just so, so much to the book; instead, I am creating a guide to make it easier for people to get started if they are interested.

What is Dream of the Red Chamber about? Why do people love it?

The best way to sum it up is calling it a family saga mixed with a bit of fantasy. It tells the story of the rise and fall of a big and powerful family, focusing on the story of the young girls, the maid servants, and the wives that all live together and run the household. The only male main character Jia Baoyu is a young heir of the family, who grew up among these women and girls. He loves and understands them, loves being surrounded by them, and deeply identifies with them. My dad, who is also a fan of the book, loves saying that Baoyu 'has the heart of a maiden'.

The book is funny and full of drama, and at the same time it's also poetic, tragic and profound, and the tragedy of the characters is written in such a kind way, as if the author wants you to love them and remember how wonderful and alive they are despite the fact that a gloomy fate will claim them all.

The book is also so queer in a way that no other Ming/Qing dynasty Chinese novels can compare. Obviously there are no modern queer labels because it was written in imperial China, but there are characters who are interested in both men and women, characters who are interested in no one, and affairs between boys and between girls; many main characters have the kind of relationships with their gender that make my Chinese transgender heart sing with empathy.

If you want to hear from English speakers who fell in love with the book and learn more about the context and literary/cultural value of the book, I recommend starting with 'Why is China’s greatest novel virtually unknown in the west?' by Michael Wood on The Guardian and 'Why you should read China’s vast, 18th century novel, Dream of the Red Chamber' by Josh Stenberg on The Conversation.

Dream of the Red Chamber is a long novel with many different versions and possibly hundreds of adaptations. How should I begin?

There are two translations that I know have received good reviews:

A Dream of Red Mansions translated by Yang Hsien-yi and Gladys Yang. My partner is reading this version. It's a very faithful translation with footnotes to make up for the language and cultural barriers. (Note: the Yangs finished their translation in prison in China during the Cultural Revolution.)

The Story of the Stone translated by David Hawkes and John Minford. It's a translation that takes more artistic liberties than the Yangs version. For example it differs in the way it translates character names and its writing style. Hawkes wanted to recreate the experience of reading the novel in Chinese for English speaking readers, but it may also be harder for you to talk to those who read the book in Chinese about certain characters and details.

There is also a public domain translation by H. Bencraft Joly, which was first published in the 19th century, and you can find it on Project Gutenberg.

The 1987 36-episode TV adaptation Dream of the Red Chamber is well-loved and considered by many Chinese people to be the best adaptation of the book. Every later adaptation would be compared with the 1987 one and found lacking. I personally love this adaptation a lot, and I think out of all the adaptations I've seen (including TV series, films and Chinese opera) it has the best interpretations of the book and the characters. It also has the best songs, which were adapted from the poems in the book. You can stream the series with English subtitles on the Internet Archive.

If you want something shorter that covers the main romance plot line and includes a few iconic scenes from the book, I recommend the 1977 film adaptation The Dream of the Red Chamber casting legendary actress Brigitte Lin as Jia Baoyu (she also portrayed an iconic classic wuxia character as a trans woman in another film franchise, but I digress). You can find the film with English subtitles on Youtube.

This is not all, but it's a good start. If you ever decide to give it a go, it doesn't matter if you watch one of the adaptations first or read the book first. Don't stress, take your time, and enjoy the ride!

[calitsnow]

Let's talk about why Hong Lu’s left eye (his jade) is getting dimmer and what are the powers and characteristics of Jia Baoyu's jade in Dream of the Red Chamber.

Today, I would like to discuss Dante’s mysterious phrase about Hong Lu, taking the opportunity to explore the jade of Jia Baoyu in more detail, especially its powers and the influence it exerts over Jia Baoyu. Here is the structure of the discussion:

Does the light of Hong Lu symbolize his break from his false reality?

Does the light of Hong Lu symbolize the end of his journey and his will to "live"?

The appearance of Jia Baoyu's jade and its powers + their loss and how they are regained

Its connection with Jia Baoyu

Brief conclusion

Does the light of Hong Lu symbolize his break from his false reality?

In Canto VII, a phrase from Dante naturally captured the attention of all Hong Lu theorists. Dante observes the following thing about Hong Lu’s eye:

"I noticed that the light in Hong Lu's left eye was growing dimmer, like light fading away as it sinks into the depths of the dark waters…"

But what does this mean? To answer that, we must first determine what this light signifies before interpreting its disappearance. For that, we need to consider the dialogue preceding Dante’s remark—the words of Hong Lu himself when he speaks about the sparkling in Don Quixote’s eyes:

"Isn't Don Quixote the most lucid one out of all of us?" "Her eyes, Dante. Always twinkling like two bright stars. They're so fascinating."

To Hong Lu, the glow in the eyes seems to be linked to clarity of mind and awareness. To him, Don Quixote is the most lucid of all because her eyes twinkle like two bright stars. Yet we know this is inaccurate, as Don Quixote is immersed in the illusion she created by erasing her memory at this point. So, it’s reasonable to suspect that Hong Lu's interpretation might be flawed.

This is also consistent with what we know about Hong Lu. Despite his frequent insightful observations and quick understanding of reality, his judgment can sometimes be clouded by his upbringing. After all, one of the first things we learn about him is that his view of the world and his interpretations can be distorted by his sheltered life.

Are we, therefore, dealing with a case where Hong Lu’s upbringing prevents him from perceiving the truth?

Don Quixote’s reality is an illusion, much like Hong Lu’s appears to be. But because he sees his form of reality reflected in Don Quixote’s, he can only conclude that Don Quixote’s twinkling eyes are an expression of clarity when it might actually be the opposite. This could foreshadow Hong Lu’s arc of breaking away from his past, family, and conditioning, realizing that what he associates with reality might be a lie, simply because he didn’t know any better.

After all, Dulcinea connects the term "naive" with Don Quixote’s twinkling eyes, (and "naive" is the adjective used for Hong Lu):

"I almost prefer that naive look from earlier. I still hated your eyes, twinkling or not, but…"

To clarify what “naive” implies, I like relying on The Walking Dead 4’s definition: Naive means you think a certain way because you don’t know the way it really is.

I find this perfectly matches how naivety is understood in the world of Limbus Company, even if we cannot be certain of that. But if we accept that this definition applies to “naive” in Project moon’s world, then being naive implies both innocence—almost childlike—and living in a lie or denial of reality.

Additionally, the emphasis on the sparkles might support the theory of the moonstone, or that Hong Lu is connected to the abnormality Yang, as it involves disregarding reality (to avoid mental breakdown). But we are not here to talk about that.

Thus, if Hong Lu is mistaken, and the twinkling represents disillusionment and denial of reality, then the more Hong Lu's eye sparkles, the more he’s immersed in illusion, a false sense of truth.

So, the first reason Hong Lu’s eye is dimming could be that he’s beginning to realize his reality wasn’t true, symbolizing the start of his awakening. After all, even Vergilius reacted with « … » to Hong Lu’s remark so it could mean that he knows that Hong Lu is in the wrong.

So, if the glow represents the jade influences on Hong Lu’s mental state and perception of reality, then the dimming of his jade’s light might signify that he’s starting to break free from this mental crutch. However this is not what I believe in…

Does the light of Hong Lu symbolize the end of his journey and his will to "live"?

What bothers me is that Dante describes the dimming of Hong Lu’s eye light in a rather pessimistic, almost fatalistic way, as though Hong Lu is fading along with his jade's light, loosing himself:

"I noticed that the light in Hong Lu's left eye was growing dimmer, like light fading away as it sinks into the depths of the dark waters…"

So, if this dimming light is a symbol of breaking free from an illusion why does Dante describe this so negatively with an emphasis on the idea of loosing Hong Lu? Maybe because, it is indeed a bad omen.

According to what Dulcinea says, Don Quixote's eyes were empty of light before when she was Sancho, this absence of twinkling at the time seems to be linked to the fact that Don Quixote/Sancho does not really believe in life and has already suffered too much from the latter. Dad Quixote then offers her a new life and hopes to bring those stars into her eyes by giving her a new family and then inviting her to participate in her adventures with him.

If we follow this analysis, then the light in Hong Lu’s eye equals his will to live and optimism about the future. So if this light is fading, does that mean Hong Lu is beginning to lose the will to live?

Well, yes, I think so... but in a very specific way.

Hear me out, Hong Lu’s eye is dimming because he’s aware his journey is nearing its end, that 7 of the 12 sinners have already regained their golden boughs, and that he may be the next:

Hong Lu’s day is ending, and it is reflected in his eye. I would even go so far as to say Hong Lu, in some way (without being aware of it), equates his return home with the end of his life (this life of new experiences and in the City, and this life with freedom).

So, this take is much more of a speculation than the last one, but if we stick with the idea that twinkling = will to live (forward) then Hong Lu started his journey in a new world with a bright eye with expectations and a desire to live new experiences, but he knows that one day he will have to return home, he knows that his journey will end one day and therefore it is normal that the closer Hong Lu gets to his golden bough moment the more the light of his eye fades, since this will be the end of his "new experiences".

Which could also echo Hong Lu's suicidal tendencies.

But then, why does Hong Lu’s eye produce sparks during Bloodfiend Hunter, Liu Story, and Yurodivy Story?

And it is now, that I would like to propose something. What if we separated the glow of Hong Lu’s eye and the sparks it produces: What if these two manifestations relate to different things? If Hong Lu’s glow reflects his mental state, then perhaps the sparks represent an effect of his jade’s power.

This leads me to discuss Jia Baoyu’s jade, both to support this analysis and to share information about the stone and its powers for those who might not have time to read the novel.

The appearance of Jia Baoyu's jade and its powers + their loss and how they are regained

In Chapter 8, Jia Baoyu’s jade is described as follows:

The size of a sparrow egg (about 22.5 mm)

Shining like a bright coppery cloud

Smooth and lustrous like marbled cream.

On the jade’s face is inscribed:

"Precious Gem of Spiritual Perception (also called Precious Jade of Spiritual Understanding). If thou wilt lose me not and never forget me, Eternal life and constant luck will be with thee!"

This means the stone is a talisman of protection and happiness. If Baoyu (or whoever holds it) keeps it close and never forgets it, they will be blessed with a long, prosperous life.

The reverse side reads:

"To exorcize evil spirits and the accessory visitations; to cure predestined sickness; to prognosticate weal and woe."

This inscription highlights the jade’s protective power: it can ward off evil, cure illness, and predict fortune or disaster. It is both a magical and prophetic object.

This ability is confirmed again in chapter 25 when a Taoist priest says:

“In your family, you have readily at hand a precious thing, the like of which is rare to find in the world. It possesses the virtue of alleviating the ailment, so why need you inquire about remedies?”

It is then revealed that it appears that the jade has lost some of its powers due to the dissipated life Baoyu has led; it has been polluted by music, lust, the pursuit of wealth, and other worldly distractions.

The monk then fix the jade and recites a poem reflecting the spiritual journey of the jade, as well as Baoyu's. In it, we are told:

The jade was once bound neither by heaven nor earth, existing in a state of spiritual purity undisturbed by human emotions (joy or sorrow).

However, upon entering the human world, it was exposed to disturbances. The jade is now tarnished by material elements ("the traces of powder and rouge stains"), symbolizing the carnal pleasures and temptations to which Baoyu has succumbed.

Finally, the monk predicts that, although the jade is currently trapped ("caged like a duck"), it will awaken from its "slumber," and once it fulfills its destiny, it will be freed.

[Little paranthesis]

I find the sentence used by the mond really interesting : "House bars both day and night encage thee like a duck" because it is really fitting for (yes Jia Baoyu but also) Hong's Lu's situation, especially with the use of the word "house".

[End of the little paranthesis]

Its connection with Jia Baoyu

The jade and Baoyu are interconnected and can be seen as one and the same, with each influencing the other. For instance, Baoyu's mood and emotions affect the appearance of the jade (its brightness), and the presence of the jade impacts Jia Baoyu's mental state (its absence renders him completely witless/foolish).

At one point in the novel, Jia Baoyu's jade shines particularly brightly when he believes he will marry Lin Daiyu (when he will actually marry Xue Baochai). This strong light seems to be triggered by Jia Baoyu aligning with his spiritual destiny.

All of this to say that even in the novel the glow of Jia Baoyu’s jade can mean several things at the time.

Brief conclusion

Returning to Hong Lu, I wonder if Project Moon has separated the manifestation of the jade's powers from the expression of its alignment with Hong Lu’s mental state: therefore, when there are small sparks, it indicates that his jade’s powers are manifesting, while the varying intensity of light would reflect a part of his mental state.

It would suggest that Hong Lu, as an individual, is gradually disappearing, maybe renouncing to his will, becoming a puppet entirely under his family's control. Indeed, when Jia Baoyu loses his jade and becomes completely foolish, his behavior shows that he is controllable and malleable; he is so witless that he cannot act independently and only repeats what he is told.

However, I can’t complete this analysis without mentioning that Jia Baoyu’s jade also loses its shine due to worldly influences, like music, lust, the pursuit of wealth, and other earthly distractions. So, does the city’s dark and horrific environment tarnish Hong Lu's jade?

Well, the issue is that, although the city is an apocalyptic world grounded in reality, it can’t truly be described as an environment where Hong Lu experiences lust or wealth, the false pleasures of life; which are what tarnish the jade in DOTRC.

On the contrary, he lives more of a life that Jia Baoyu begins to envy at one point in the novel because it is a life free from the obligations and facades imposed on him by his family. Therefore, what he is currently experiencing should not affect the brightness of his eye.

So, after all this blabla, I think that Hong Lu’s eye is gradually getting dimmer as the end of Hong Lu's journey approaches, which signifies the end of his new experiences and his return to a life of wealth but also to a life with his family and to how things used to be.

We could see this light fading away as an hourglass where the sand is slowly falling down but little by little there will be no more remaining sand at the top.

I fear that when this happens, by going back home, Hong Lu will lose all individuality and will, becoming docile and obedient as he seems to have always been at home. And he is accepting this and it is because he is accepting this that his eye is getting dimmer, it is reflecting Hong Lu’s decline.

I think that during Hong Lu’s Canto, one of the biggest challenges will not only be to retrieve the golden bough but also to convince Hong Lu to leave with us. It’s almost certain that when we reach his home, Hong Lu won’t be able to leave with us because, his family won’t allow it, and above all, he won’t want to either because he’ll convince himself that he can't and that his little trip is over.

I’d like to finish by saying that Hong Lu’s Rose Hunter EGO Corrosion could really be linked to this because we can see that Hong Lu in his corrosion has a hangman’s like rope around his neck, formed by his horse’s reins.

Even if I want to analyse Hong Lu’s EGOs in another post I will just say that for me it is the symbol that Hong Lu is dependent of his (determined) fate and the will of the narrative (his family) even if it has to equal to his death (literally or figuratively or mentally we don’t know). I think it also means that even if Hong Lu believe being in control of his actions and decisions, in reality he is just following the lead of « his horse », the one conducting him, deciding where he is going — and so I think following his family’s wishes.

Voilà, thank you for reading!

[lu-is-not-ok]

two in one theory... i am listening very intently if you ever feel up to share it!!

Alright, so this is gonna be... as close to an Abridged explanation of the theory as I can make, because if I went off on everything about it I would end up writing a whole dissertation or five hour video essay script on this shit.

There are gonna be three main sections to this post - Hong Lu's Daiyuisms, Hong Lu's Themes of Identity and how that connects to the concept of Two in One, and the Daiyu-Baoyu theory itself.

Strap in folks.

Hong Lu's Daiyuisms

If you know anything about my theories in the earlier days of Limbus, you might know that I'm one of the very few people who was convinced Hong Lu is actually Daiyu, due to some evidence I found personally compelling. This has not changed, as we've only gotten just as much extra evidence to this as we have to him being Baoyu. So let me just speedrun through some of these points.

The Fucking Jade Eye

Ok hear me out. This is maybe the least important piece of evidence but I can never stop thinking about it. Hong Lu's jade eye? Not actually fully blue! If you look closely on most of his sprites, you can see that he actually has sectoral heterochromia, meaning his jade eye is both blue and black.

Daiyu's name, quite literally, translates to blue-black jade.

Now, you could claim that this is merely meant to be an easter egg reference to her, but... is that really Project Moon's style? After all, when people speculated on Don Quixote being Sancho or a Bloodfiend partially based on her appearance all the way back since near launch, they turned out to be right.

Hong Lu's Father

As of now, there is only one instance of Hong Lu referencing his Father in Limbus, and it's a voiceline from his Base Identity:

Now, if you know anything about DOTRC, this should already be raising some flags, because if Hong Lu was just Baoyu, he would not fucking talk like that about his Father.

In the book, Baoyu is consistently shown to be afraid of his Father, for a good reason mind you, as he's his main abuser. Baoyu would not be looking forward to introducing his friends to that man.

Even if Hong Lu was trying to downplay the abuse he's recieved, this would still not fit his pattern of behavior. When topics that genuinely bother Hong Lu come up, such as what could make him distort or how rich people would enjoy gifts made of humans, he immediately pivots and tries to avoid the topic at all cost. He would not bring up his main abuser in such a lighthearted manner, he would avoid bringing him up at all cost.

However, there is a character in DOTRC which does in fact have a more positive relationship to her Father, and would likely be the one with an opinion such as that - Daiyu. Daiyu loves her Father, and when he dies she completely disappears from the story for a bit to attend his funeral. If there was anyone who would be excited to introduce their friends to their Father, it'd be Daiyu.

Lasso Hong Lu's Corrosion

I made a whole seperate post about this, but I might as well mention it here as well for the sake of completion. The design choices made for Hong Lu which are missing for Faust are very, very Daiyu-coded.

For one, not only does Hong Lu completely turn into a flower, unlike Faust, his horse also gains a flower in its mouth. For those whose knowledge of DOTRC is zero to none, Daiyu is a reincarnation of a Flower given sentience due to being watered by the Jade. I don't think I have to be the one to connect the dots between those two pieces of info for you.

The second is how the halters become a noose for Hong Lu. This, too, is a very Daiyu thing - Rose Hunter as an Abnormality represents the inability to escape one's fate, and Daiyu's fate is to die - the Jia Family arranging a marriage between Baoyu and Baochai leads to Daiyu falling deathly ill, which in itself could be considered a part of her repaying her Debt of Tears - the debt she swore to repay to the Jade/Baoyu when she was still a Flower.

The hilarity of the fact that this E.G.O came out in the same update as Hong Lu being called Baoyu in-story is not lost on me.

Rose Sign Abnormality Log

The third Log for Rose Sign ends in a very peculiar way.

There's multiple ways one can tie Hong Lu's odd reluctance to talk about flowers and the petals. One is the obvious "he's being reminded of Daiyu because she was a Flower" connection, but there's another one.

One of the most commonly potrayed images of Daiyu relates to a scene in DOTRC where she buries fallen flower petals, weeping for and lamenting the mortality of the flowers and herself. Hong Lu's reaction here to his fellow Sinners being reduced to nothing but petals upon Rose Sign's death feels like a notable parallel to Daiyu's flower burial scene.

Like literally everything about Kurokumo Hong Lu

The title for this is a bit of an exaggeration, but at the same time. I'm serious. Kurokumo Hong Lu is perhaps the most Daiyu Identity out of all the Hong Lu Identities we have, and the way he is designed to stand out among them further makes me go insane.

Kurokumo Hong Lu's most defining trait is his attitude - he often complains about his position and how authority treats him, though he doesn't really act out against them in any major way outside of making snarky or sarcastic remarks.

This is, frankly, an extremely Daiyu thing to do. Daiyu is one of the few characters who audibly complains about her treatment in the household. For example she complains about not being given as many opportunities to show off her poetry skills as her male peers are, and she recognises how, when all the girls in the family are given flowers, she's the last one to recieve them and thus is stripped of the ability to pick, being only given the leftovers.

Then there's the whole. Everything about Kurokumo Hong Lu's visual design. Because once you realize just how Daiyu-like the Identity is, you realize just how weird he is compared to other Hong Lu Identities. I mean just look how he compares to his other Identities.

He's the only Hong Lu Identity with a blue tint to his hair in the combat sprite rather than the usual purple.

He's the only Hong Lu Identity whose hairtie is a ribbon rather than a jade ring (Liu Hong Lu technically has the ribbon in his post-uptie art, but he doesn't have it in his combat sprite so I'm not counting him).

He's the only Hong Lu Identity to not be smiling in his combat sprites.

And he's the only Hong Lu Identity (and one of only four Identities in the game) whose Idle sprite has its body facing away from the opponent rather than facing towards them.

All of those combine to make him stand out like a sore thumb in a Hong Lu Identity lineup in a way that makes it feel intentional, especially since he's also the only Hong Lu Identity with that kind of notable attitude towards authority. Other Hong Lu Identities are either obedient, don't express any opinion, or just straight up are the authority.

The Baoyu reveal is framed in a very weird way

This is, admittedly, less of a Daiyuism and more of a not-Baoyuism, but I thought it'd be important to mention nonetheless.

There are a lot of things about Canto 7's reveal of Hong Lu's name being Baoyu that are very strange, especially compared to how the Canto frames Don Quixote's own reveal of actually being Sancho.

For one, the timing itself - why is such an important piece of info being revealed so early? Again, compare to Donqui - she was revealed to be a Bloodfiend in the Intervallo right before Canto 7, and the Sancho reveal only came in the second half of the Canto.

For two, the framing - Donqui's reveals are treated as what they are, Major Reveals. The Baoyu reveal on the other hand happens in a single off-handed line, with nobody reacting to it in any way. Neither Hong Lu nor the other Sinners seem to hear it after all.

And mind you, it's not like Limbus is opposed to giving us important information in off-handed lines - far from it in fact. Project Moon loves shoving little bits of foreshadowing and reveals you don't realize are reveals until way later in these kinds of off-handed lines. But the way those lines are treated is still very different to how the Baoyu reveal is treated.

Usually, when there's foreshadowing in off-handed lines, it's usually either vague enough to be something a character could say regardless of context (see Yi Sang getting hung up on the Sedatives bit in Canto 2 or Ishmael's comment about Syndicates pretending to be Families foreshadowing her own history with the Middle via Queequeg) or something that is in the middle of a scene that distracts from what is actually being said (like Hong Lu's distortion foreshadowing being in the middle of an important infodump or most of everything in Canto 2 being surrounded by a comedic tone).

None of this is present for the Baoyu reveal. There's nothing to distract you from this information, as the scene is already focused on discussing Hong Lu, meaning you're already likely to be paying attention to what is being said about him. There's also no vagueness about it, there's no way you can brush it off since not only are Wei and Xichun newly introduced characters, but it's a whole ass clearcut namedrop.

The only way I can justify that reveal being there in the form it takes is that it in itself is the distraction. Think about it. Didn't I point it out earlier that this reveal came in the same update as the E.G.O with an extremely Daiyu-coded corrosion design? Wouldn't it make sense for that reveal to be there to lower your guard, make you think you resolved that mystery, only to later on reveal it wasn't the whole story after all?

Hong Lu's Themes of Identity

So this section is a bit more vague than the Daiyuism section, because Hong Lu is the type of guy to just Say Shit all the time. It's basically just. Anything that I find relevant to the idea of Hong Lu's Identity being more complex than him just being a random guy using a pseudonym, with some (but maybe not all) of them directly tying to the idea of Two in One.

"Which one is the real you?"

There are currently two seperate scenes where Hong Lu muses on the idea of someone's identity being in some way vague or obscured.

Is Dante the person or the clock? Is the dreamer the one in the dream or the one who wakes from it? Which you is the real you? Does it even matter if that you will flutter away in the end?

This idea of there being one true self. That even if there are two, there is only one of them that is actually you. Curious, right?

Face-changing dance

During the Canto 2 scene where everyone gives their reasons for whether or not they'd be a good pick for being the one to dance, Hong Lu says this.

Bian lian is a kind of dance literally translated as "face-changing". It involves rapid changes between various masks and make-up to represent different emotions or characters.

Now, it's no secret that Hong Lu is a great actor, as we see in Canto 4, and Canto 7 shows how the comparison to theatre and actors can be used to symbolize one's performance of identity, as it does for Sancho and her Don Quixote persona.

Mind you, this reveal comes in the same scene as Sinclair's dance invoking the image of a bonfire burning all through the night according to the Mariachis, a clear foreshadowing to Canto 3 and the Literal burning down of Sinclair's home.

Hong Lu knowing bian lian could be further foreshadowing to his own skills in deception, and how he too is a sort of actor, not unlike Don Quixote. On the other hand however, it could also be a more literal foreshadowing, that he (Baoyu) Quite Literally changed his face. We won't know until Canto 8, but it is an option you know.

The HamHamPangPang dish(es)

For those who don't know, here is a list of the Sinner-themed dishes that were available at HamHamPangPang.

Now, chances are, not all of them have deep meanings. I don't think there's much of a deep meaning to Heathcliff and Ishmael's dishes, I think PJM just legit don't know much about British/American cuisine so they just picked something recogniseable.

However, not all of them are meaningless picks either. Ryoshu, likely a mother, has a meal literally called "parent-and-child donburi". Don Quixote, a Bloodfiend, has a garlic-based dish. These were clearly done on purpose.

So, what does it say that Hong Lu's dish is actually two different dishes? That he's the only one whose dish is two different dishes? And it's not like the two are in some way inherently connected, since they're of completely different cuisines. Japchae is a Korean dish, not Chinese like the Mandarin rolls.

And just in case you weren't convinced that Hong Lu's choice of dishes is purposeful - another name for Mandarin rolls is flower buns, and one of the special occasions japchae is commonly served for is weddings. If you had read through the Daiyuisms section and somehow have no idea what the significance of that is, I don't know what to tell you.

The Daiyu-Baoyu Theory (finally)

So. I gave some evidence for why I think Hong Lu could still be Daiyu despite being revealed as Baoyu. I gave some evidence for why I think Hong Lu could be a Two in One deal, or that at the very least there's something more complex going on with his identity. But let's discuss the theory itself, how it would recontextualize certain things, and why I think it's an extremely fitting an thematically resonant direction for Hong Lu's Canto to go in.

The Theory

Here's what I speculate is going on.

Daiyu, just like in DOTRC, is someone who was taken in into the Jia Household rather than born in it, and who strongly connected with Baoyu upon meeting him. The two would end up forming a bond strong enough that they would be willing to die for one another (or, if they're in particularly argumentative moods, to kill themselves just to force the other to have to live a long life grieving over them - this is an actual argument they have in DOTRC and I pray to god this is adapted into Limbus because it's too fucking funny).

At some point, Baoyu either dies or is brought to near death, likely through the same circumstances as in DOTRC - being beaten by his Father. To save him, his memories and consciousness would be transferred to his eye, a process not dissimilar to the one Xichun brings up in Canto 7, and implanted into Daiyu's body, causing them to become a vessel for Baoyu. This would be how Hong Lu as he is now is created.

All of the above is the main basis for this theory. Everything else that I might speculate about, such as the exact nature of the two's relationship, Daiyu's more exact background and personality, how their pre-reincarnation lives could be adapted - all of those are things that are purely speculative and ones that I don't really expect to be actually fulfilled. The only bits that I am sure are likely to be true is what I laid out above.

So... what does it all mean for the future? I'm glad you asked!

The Recontextualization

Here's a collection of just a couple of things that Hong Lu has said or is depicted as that would be heavily recontextualized if this theory ends up being true.

Hong Lu surviving despite claiming he didn't fight back when his siblings first tried to kill him: With the context that he used to be two seperate people, the answer to how he survived is made very simple. Baoyu is the one who wasn't fighting back. Daiyu, however, could have still protected him in turn.

The red ribbon on Hong Lu's weapon: There is only one other Sinner who has a similar decoration on their weapon - Ryoshu, who also has a red ribbon on her sword, which could be easily connected to Yuzuki and her death. With the context of Hong Lu being Baoyu occupying Daiyu's body and thus effectively rendering their self non-existent, the red ribbon could be a parallel symbol - a symbol of Daiyu and their 'death'.

How Hong Lu treats his weapon in his base E.G.O: The way Hong Lu holds his weapon in the illustration is more like he's cradling another person. This could be a representation of how he feels about Daiyu's situation. Likewise, in the attack animation, he's not really attacking with the weapon itself, is he? He's simply using it to direct a ribbon (which in itself is missing in the illustration), the part that is actually the attack. If the weapon in the base E.G.O represents Daiyu, this could be a parallel to how Baoyu feels like he's merely directing Daiyu's body to attack, rather than being the one actually attacking.

The duality of Hong Lu IDs: There is a notable pattern among Hong Lu IDs, and that is the focus on his attitude to violence. When he's in a situation where he's obedient towards his Family, he's either uninterested in violence, bored of it, or otherwise given no other choice but to use it as a reprieve from boredom. However, when he's in a situation where he's disconnected from his Family or otherwise questioning the status quo, he's shown to not only be much more aggressive and violent, but to outright enjoy it. With the context of Hong Lu being composed of two people, this duality could represent each of his components - the obedient and violence-averse being more Baoyu-like, while the questioning and violence-favoring being more Daiyu-like.

So, there's a bunch of stuff that would be given new meaning under the premise of this theory being true. But now, what about the future? What would this theory mean for the themes and ending of Canto 8?

The Resolution

I believe this is how the Daiyu-Baoyu theory will affect Canto 8.

At some point, whether before or during the Canto, it will be revealed that Hong Lu is both Daiyu and Baoyu. There will be an attempt to seperate the two, perhaps to implant Baoyu into a more fitting, more Jia Family-approved Vessel. Perhaps because the 'arranged marriage' from DOTRC could be adapted into something more... let's say Fear and Hunger kind of marriage rather than traditional marriage.

This will leave Hong Lu to be returned to their state as Daiyu, who will be revealed to be a very different person to what the Sinners knew Hong Lu as. There is a non-zero chance that Daiyu will be unable to hear Dante or be revived by them due to the one who signed the contract being Baoyu, and so they could end up acting as an uncontrollable ally unit not unlike Xichun in Canto 7.

The climax would then be Daiyu and Baoyu reuniting and being unwilling to part with each other again, even for the sake of returning to being the fake persona that is Hong Lu, leading to a potential duo boss fight/distortion boss fight/duo distortion boss fight.

The ending would be the two of them deciding to embrace their new identity as Hong Lu and truly becoming one, discarding their pasts and the selves that had been forced on them by the Jia Family. This ending would have a twofold meaning regarding how it connects to the DOTRC adaptation.

One - it would be a direct parallel to the ending of DOTRC where Baoyu leaves to become a monk. By becoming Hong Lu and discaring his previous identities, he'd be leaving behind the earthly attachments inherent to being Baoyu and Daiyu and become spiritually whole.

Two - it would be a reflection of the major theme of DOTRC, that being "Truth becomes fiction when the fiction's true. Real becomes not-real when the unreal's real." Hong Lu, as a person, is a 'fake' persona used by the 'real' Baoyu and Daiyu. However, by discarding those two identities and deciding to just be Hong Lu, the fiction of his existence becomes the truth, while his former real selves become not real.

Conclusion?

I could honestly just keep going with this post, but I think I'm going to stop myself here before I'm forced to find out what tumblr's character limit on posts is. Believe me, I was trying to be brief, and still this post is. This fucking long.

I hope this explains why this theory has been the subject of my brainrot for the past however long, and why I feel like it's surprisingly plausible despite being as deranged as it is.

Godspeed and godbless, I have classes tomorrow and I'm spending my time on this.

[melonisopod]

So Hong Lu has basically no Gloom skills across his IDs (only Liu and Deici have Gloom), but his base EGO requires Gloom resource and is Gloom typed. I'm told this represents the "Debt of Tears" of Jia Baoyu in Dream of the Red Chamber.

One of his IDs in Canto IV is a K. Corp. Excision Soldier, who is kept in a vat of K. Corp's tears to empower him. He has a passive that gives him "K. Corp. Ampules" that grant passive healing, but if he builds up too many he can die instantly. (Note that the K. Corp. Tears are literally the tears of a constantly miserable crying eyeball. It makes sense in context)

And now, he has an E.G.O. based on the Blubbering Toad, where in his Corrosion he literally BURSTS and shatters apart.

I'm a little worried for whatever the fuck will happen to him in his Canto.

[strobbylemonade]

completely unorganised iconic canto vii moments and thoughts

Wow. Chat, is this for real? (meursault getting this id is super funny)

Oh...!

sinclair got a lot of fun moments with ryoshu + heathcliff & ishmael. it was really nice to see all four of them getting along!! he's really becoming a part of the gang rather than just a punching bag/translator

dante's being really chill with killing people now. hooray!

MY COMPASS WAS SWALLOWED BY THE SEA- (ishmael makes a comment that donqui pesters her with questions about her "adventures" as she's the only other fixer on the bus which is really cute)

...now if i said she was kind of hot in this outfit. um. with. the cane. outis.... outis give me a chance...

i might just be gay but i gasped when rodya came on screen. and also i'm so glad we got don's full ego outfit in the regular style especially bc she's lying down in her ego and we cant see shit.

also the casting in the play was... interesting. i think while yi sang's play spoke a lot more to the internal factors of the sinners, sanson's play was like. WAAYYY more surface level to the point of being a little... offputting? like: rodya is poor. outis is old. gregor is an animal. heathcliff is a beast. sinclair is. a guy. like it’s so surface level it’s almost obnoxious. which is interesting, to say that what we're seeing is only the surface level don quixote and nothing deeper like when we actually go into the fathoms through other means.

and some more stuff:

dante talking to faust and charon during charon's "checkup" is really cute. they keep on thinking about life after working at lcb where they're still with everyone 😭😭😭 also so glad we're getting more charon content

"I always have so many questions floating around in my head, but whenever I stand in front of this man, my brain seems to forget them all" can they kiss already

vergilius not stopping don from declaring a duel against the cinq director because she acted like garnet 😭😭😭 really hoping for those two to have a genuinely good interaction this chapter

really liking the variety in emotions in don's voice... excitement, rage, determination, mix of range as well, high when she gets excited and low when she gets pissed. i really like how her flashback voice is just... softer than her regular voice, not particularly "lower" like warp express implied

speaking of voice acting, ishmael??? gregor?? they sound so tired... not sure how i feel about it, but it is a bit like ishmael being more relaxed around the sinners and then speaking more professionally when the p corp director steps in.

i really like how ishmael is more confident to banter back with vergilius, and vergilius is... "warmer" with the sinners

OH RIGHT MOSES AND EZRA! moses has some sort of connection with outis..? what's that about.

one more thing is that very very very few people in the pmooniverse have last names, but we do know that earnshaw/edgar are last names, and jia is definitively hong lu's family's last name. so a: i'm assuming last names are only for REALLY RICH people, and b: why is hong lu's name... not jia baoyu? it doesn't sound like he was disowned in the story, as his brother and cousin still hold jia as their family name... so... what's up with that

so theory time:

so don quixote created la mancha land, right? like. that's where this thing's going? someone who wanted humans and bloodfiends to live in peace? someone who wanted to protect humans and sustain bloodfiend lives in a non-violent way?

would be fun to have her parallel yi sang as in she still wants to destroy the person who created la mancha land (i.e. kill herself) but is unable to because of her contract with dante. i love angst

i first thought the man with the red text in the flashbacks was the real don quixote, and our donqui is actually sancho, but the Barber referred to sancho by name/in the present tense so. not sure.

we do hear vergilius a lot in the flashbacks, and we don't know the time between leviathan and don's recruitment. would it be possible he was trapped in la manchaland between its appearances, fighting bloodfiends for a year with his blood manipulation ego before he and donqui struck a deal with each other. hm. we'll find out

also (based off of canto v and vi) i can't wait to see either whatever gay ass parallel dante has with donqui's ex, OR what narrative parallels they have with each other... and they have a LOT in common (amnesiacs, relationships/emotions being their driving force, extremely powerful to their own self-detriment, strong moral code that goes against the laws of the city...)

welp. see you guys next week!