#jedi vs sith

[sns315]

You are all these things, Revan

[smhalltheurlsaretaken]

(repost of this with the video directly in the post because vimeo links are acting up)

Rewatching this scene for the sweet angst, something struck me. In hindsight it's extremely obvious but I'd never thought about it this way.

There's the very obvious parallels with Qui-Gon's death, down to Satine caressing Obi-Wan's cheek, there's that amazing bit of mirrored exchange, where Obi-Wan starts off confrontational and angry and Maul gloating, and then Obi-Wan becomes soft-spoken and empathetic and Maul starts to shake with rage and pain and can't even properly face him, and then there's this.

Maul boasts that the Dark Side is "more powerful than [Obi-Wan] knows," that Obi-Wan's "noble flaw" is a weakness, so why is he trying to make him more powerful? Why tell him to use the Dark Side? Why basically give him a crash course about how it works? Does he want Obi-Wan to retaliate? To escape?

The obvious answer is that Maul isn't trying to make Obi-Wan more powerful. After all, he's well aware that Obi-Wan is a dogshit fighter when he's angry.

Immediately after that last quote, he says "that is not the Jedi way, is it?" as a taunt, and again in The Lawless, he insists "You should have chosen the Dark Side, Master Jedi."

So he's simply trying to destroy him as a Jedi, right? Because he knows that's what make Obi-Wan who he is, and he blames Obi-Wan for robbing him of his status along with his life, so he wants to destroy Obi-Wan's life in the ways that matter (since, as Obi-Wan says, just killing him is nothing like destroying him). But if that's the case, then we're back to the "power" issue. What's the point of destroying Obi-Wan if it's by giving him what Maul claims is his own identity, and the key to freedom?

And imo the answer lies right here:

Why would killing Satine make Obi-Wan share Maul's pain? Why would Maul regard the pain of losing a loved one (something he's completely unfamiliar with at this point) as equal to his torment? Why isn't he chopping Obi-Wan in half and keeping him alive with Nightsister magick instead? Why would the murder of one of Obi-Wan's loved ones, picked almost at random, be THE "moment" Maul has been thinking about "for years"?

I think he really isn't talking about Satine's murder in and of itself when he talks of pain. The pain he wants Obi-Wan to share isn't the pain of loss, but very simply the pain of living in the Dark Side.

That's why Satine really is just a "tool" to his vengeance, as he says, and not the main point. That's why he's so enraged that Obi-Wan insists on showing him compassion even through his fear and anger - being kind leaves you open to grief but protects from the agony of the Dark.

Maul wants Obi-Wan to Fall, to stop being a Jedi, not because he truly believes the Dark Side gives you good things, but because he knows the Dark Side makes you miserable.

He tries to freaking teach Obi-Wan how to Fall, like Obi-Wan is a Sith apprentice, because being a Sith is the most miserable you're ever going to get! He tries to make Obi-Wan suffer by making him like him! He's so self-loathing his hatred of Obi-Wan materializes as self-hatred!

And hey, that greatly complements the end of the episode - Obi-Wan resists the Dark Side and escapes the planet, and Maul revels in it and immediately loses the only person he cares about and ends up crawling and crying while Sidious gleefully tortures him. Maul falls victim to every form of suffering he wanted to inflict on Obi-Wan and Obi-Wan flies away. In the end, Maul is proven right: being Fallen really f*cking sucks.

Really accentuates that Maul wanted relief above all when he sought out Obi-Wan in Rebels. He went to the only person who had shown him actual compassion, and the person he knew was best at resisting the Dark Side - so he could finally be free.

[fellthemarvelous]

I want to talk about Obi-Wan and Maul

This might end up being kind of long so bear with me, and my thoughts are kind of all over the place and possibly slightly incoherent.

Maul and Obi-Wan had a rivalry that was insanely brutal. (More under the cut.)

Maul survived being cut in half by Obi-Wan and ended up going insane, no longer connected to reality and living in the sewers for many years. Once Savage took him back to Dathomir and the Nightsisters "fixed" him, he found clarity again and became wholly fixated on Obi-Wan, the only person he had any connection to from his past. He hated all Jedi, but there was no one he hated more than Kenobi.

Obi-Wan, for his part, was horrified to learn that Maul had survived considering Obi-Wan had cut him in half.

Their rivalry is probably one of my favorites in all of Star Wars.

Maul was bloodthirsty, vengeful, and full of rage.

Obi-Wan was the opposite. He was kind, compassionate, took no pleasure from killing others, and loved unconditionally.

And one thing Obi-Wan eventually came to understand about Maul was that Maul had not had a good life. He recognized that Maul was raised to be the person he was because of the cruelty of Darth Sidious.

The Nightsisters handed baby Maul over to Darth Sidious to be trained in the ways of the Sith. Darth Sidious, who is famously cruel and diabolical. Darth Sidious, who raised Maul to be expendable because Maul was just a means to an end for Sidious.

Maul who never grew up experiencing love. He never experienced kindness or compassion. He was raised to be an assassin, a cold-blooded killer, doing anything and everything Sidious asked of him.

And he eventually understood that he had been nothing more than a tool for Sidious.

So he was angry. Alone. Full of hate. And wanted revenge.

And his anger at Obi-Wan was more than just him losing his legs. Obi-Wan caused him to lose the only life he knew. He had no guidance once Sidious was finished with him.

The only life he knew was one of cruelty. He'd never bonded with anyone until he met Savage.

And when Sidious killed Savage, Maul was alone again. (Ironically, Sidious killed Savage the same way Maul had killed Satine like five minutes prior.)

He had no one on his side again.

He tried to connect with Ahsoka, and then with Ezra years later.

But still, more than anything, he wanted to break Obi-Wan the same way that he himself was broken. He wanted to see Obi-Wan lose control and become like him. He was almost successful when he forced Obi-Wan to watch him kill Satine.

But Obi-Wan proved to be unbreakable even in that moment, and Maul's obsession only became stronger, along with his rage.

Maul was unable to comprehend love, and it drove him crazy that Obi-Wan had actually tried to connect with him in the moments leading up to Satine's death. Obi-Wan had tried to show Maul compassion and it infuriated Maul. He hated that Obi-Wan was trying to be kind to him.

Maul was a monster in every way, but he was also a victim raised under the cruelty of Darth Sidious and only knew how to be what Sidious had molded him into.

And on the other side we have Obi-Wan Kenobi. Despite his sass and sharp wit, he is kind and loving. He loved being a Jedi and devoted his life to living by the Jedi code. And he may not have always gotten it right, but he never strayed from the core principles.

(And always be as dramatic as possible.)

I've seen some bizarre criticisms of Obi-Wan that have me scratching my head. His attachment to Anakin, for one, like there isn't a rich and complicated history behind their relationship in the first place.

He's criticized for not killing Anakin so clearly Vader's reign of terror is somehow Obi-Wan's fault.

Let's examine all of this a bit closer.

We often joke about the fact that Obi-Wan has a vast collection of dismembered body parts, but Obi-Wan does not like killing others. He kills when he has no other option.

He prefers to disarm his opponents, quite literally. He cut off Zam Wessell's hand instead of killing her even though she was about to kill him. He just wanted answers. She had no real way of fighting back because he had injured her.

He disarmed the man who was threatening Luke in the cantina in A New Hope. He didn't kill him though. It's not like he was a major threat.

And on Mustafar, he couldn't bring himself to kill Anakin. He cut off one of Anakin's arms and both of his legs, an action that tore him apart because he loved Anakin so much. Anakin was defenseless at that point, and he was also completely on fire thanks to the lava. No part of him imagined that Anakin could have survived being burned alive, and he spent the next ten years hating himself for leaving Anakin to die until he learned that Anakin not only survived but was incredibly angry with him and wanted to kill him.

Just like Maul.

Obi-Wan did not like the idea of killing. At all.

And perhaps it was his attachment to Anakin Skywalker that brought the galaxy to its knees, but that attachment was because he and Anakin had always had a confusing relationship.

Let's take into consideration the fact that Obi-Wan, at the end of The Phantom Menace and only 25-years-old, had just watched his Master die at the hands of Darth Maul, subsequently killed Darth Maul (but not as much as he thought he had), been given the title of Jedi Knight, and taken on nine-year-old Anakin Skywalker (almost immediately after being knighted), a boy who had just been freed from slavery and had to leave his mother behind to pursue a life as a Jedi because being a Jedi had always been his dream.

Then maybe take into account the fact that Obi-Wan Kenobi was grieving the loss of Qui-Gon while Anakin struggled with being away from Shmi for the first time in his life. Obi-Wan didn't just train Anakin in the ways of the Jedi, he raised Anakin. He treated Anakin like a brother while Anakin said Obi-Wan was the closest thing he ever had to a father. Obi-Wan has always been good with children, and it's only natural that he would take on a parental type of role despite the fact he was only 16 years older than Anakin. He loved Anakin the way a brother would, and it did blind him to some of Anakin's more concerning habits, but Anakin also kept his biggest sins a secret because he was ashamed of himself, and he never wanted to know what it felt like to have Obi-Wan be disappointed in him.

Their relationship was messy because they were attached to each other, but Obi-Wan still did his best to teach Anakin. It had been Qui-Gon's final wish for him to train the boy, and Obi-Wan trusted his master.

So it was his attachment to Anakin that prevented him from killing Anakin aka Darth Vader, but it was very in character for him to choose not to do so. He always believed there were other ways to fight back.

And in the end, not killing Anakin had been the right choice. Anakin is the one who defeated Sidious (at the cost of his own life too) in an act of love for his son Luke and returned balance to the Force.

Obi-Wan didn't want to kill Maul either, but Maul gave him no choice. Maul was now a threat to Luke.

Maul lived a tormented, lonely life because he was never able to come to terms with the pain and anguish he'd experienced as a child that turned him into the monster he was throughout the rest of his life.

Obi-Wan (Ben) was able to rise above the suffering he'd endured and made peace with what had happened during and after the Clone Wars. He was so very much connected to the Force by this point because he had finally been able to let go of the tragedies of his past.

When he defeated Maul, he didn't treat it as a victory. He cradled Maul in his arms the same way he had held Qui-Gon and Satine when they died by Maul's hand.

He offered compassion to Maul despite Maul's atrocities, and in doing so, allowed Maul to experience peace for the first time in his long life.

In his final moments, he was treated with the dignity he had never given any of his victims.

And I think, in the end, Maul finally understood what he had been deprived of his entire life.

Obi-Wan was a true Jedi. He might have made a few errors along his journey, like everyone else does. He proved he was a master not by his skills with a lightsaber but by his ability to show compassion to those who don't necessarily deserve it because they are the ones who usually need it the most.

Star Wars Rebels gave us such beautiful closure to a rivalry that spanned decades.

[starfireproductions]

"You didn't kill Anakin Skywalker... I did."

I have posted a couple of character projects from my books but those are exclusive to my DA page so if you want to check them out, you can find them there. As such, they've taken more of my art time so other projects have been cut back to quick grey scale ones in between my main works. One of my favourite scenes from the Obi-Wan Kenobi series. The look on Anakin's face when he says this and Obi-Wan's response was just fantastic.

Full details can be found on my DA page here: https://www.deviantart.com/starfire-productions

[spookypanda04]

Sooooo, I did a thing

[skysgalaxy]

Sorry about the quality but for the life of me even though it's interesting that we get extended fight scenes of Jedi vs Sith I cannot unsee this Obi looks like a bug jumping it's not just during this fight several fights have this almost exact same pattern and it's always hilarious to me cause they literally move like bugs

[madmanwonder]

Prompt

Crossover Fusion Star Wars: Jedi AU + Sith AU

Jedi Hiro Hamada Vs Sith Ruby Tojo

MK Intro Meme

Arena: Imperial Throne Room

Jedi!Hiro: For the Republic! For the Jedi!

Sith!Ruby: Do you have anything original in that mind, boy?

Jedi!Hiro: The only original thing I have in mind is your death, witch!

[thehollowprince]

[mis-mcgifsten]

Vodka vs salad is the absolute best explanation of the impossibility of maintaining a dark side light side balance I have read.

What are your thoughts on the je'daii? Do they even work, like I find myself irritated by the concept because people often use them to validate/prove the notion that "balance = both sides of the Force"

If you stick to what George Lucas said, in Star Wars a person being "balanced" is someone who accepts their inner darkness and resists its pull nonetheless.

When fans mention the Je'daii, it's usually in the context of:

"The Jedi downgraded from the Je'daii, limited their studies of the Force, refusing to study the Dark Side was a mistake. It was an original sin that caused them to create an imbalance within them."

Which is weird, to me, because the whole point of the comic's narrative is that:

the Je’daii Order’s way was doomed to fail.

Introduced in the Legends comic series Dawn of the Jedi (2012), the Je'daii are the predecessors of the Jedi. They are an order of Force users who studied and practiced both the Light Side and the Dark Side in hopes of finding Balance.

The reasoning is simple: everyone has a bit of good and bad in them, you learn to master the good and the bad sides inside of you, indulging them equally. But while this method seems sound on paper… it didn't work.

Consider that they’re already dabbling with the Dark Side...

... but hey, at least they’re aware of its dangers, they’re trying to be responsible about it.

There's a support system where they all warn each other when they're about to cross a line. But even then, there's many who've fallen and been exiled to a moon, to be rehabilitated.

Suddenly, circumstances compel all of them to use the Forcesaber, a weapon that only activates when you draw on the Dark Side.

And that does something to them. Over the course of a year, they all become increasingly aggressive.

Soon, a faction breaks off because they no longer want to stop using the Forcesaber. They’re addicted to the Dark Side.

A war ensues, at the end of which the Jedi Order is born, a group of Force users who:

acknowledge and accept their inner darkness,

while also striving to overcome it rather than give it power.

So that’s the moral of the whole Je’daii story.

Their idea of "Balance by wielding both" was actually so fragile and difficult to maintain that all it took was a little push for them to become vulnerable to the Dark Side's temptation.

Hell, even after the Jedi Order was established, one of its founders, Master Rajivari - who in Dawn of the Jedi (2012) is framed as a wise ex-general who, albeit strict, spends his days meditating and philosophizing - he goes to the Dark Side too! 

Because that's how the Dark Side works.

The Dark Side isn’t just "negative feelings" or a "bad guy superpower" that you can mix with a "good guy superpower" to unleash the ultimate 'Force blast'. This isn’t an anime.

The Dark Side is a drugs/smoking/drinking addiction.

It's selfish, temporary pleasure. The more you consume it...

... the more you get addicted...

... and the more it consumes you right back...

... until nothing remains.

Jon Ostrander, who wrote Dawn of the Jedi (2012), echoed this sentiment multiple times:

“As I see it, those working on the light side work with the Force, channeling it, open and sensitive to what it tells them. They serve it. Those on the dark side try to impose their will on the Force, to make it do their will, to make it serve them. The Je’daii believe in a balance between the light and the dark side and so attempt to use both. Problem is, a balance is hard to maintain and the dark side is so very seductive.” - John Ostrander, LA Times, 2012

“The Je'daii aren't light side or dark side, although they know and are aware of both. Instead they seek a balance in the Force between light and dark. Balance, however, is a difficult thing to maintain and there is always the danger of falling wholly to the dark side — and some Je'daii have done so.” - John Ostrander, Newsarama, 2012

And this is a recurring theme throughout all of Ostrander’s comics, by the way. Be it with the Je’daii, but also with Quinlan Vos or Cade Skywalker, the point remains the same: 

"Yes, wielding the Dark Side gives you great power, and you get to show off some badass new tricks...

… but it ultimately destroys you and everyone around you."

Remember: if it weren’t for Cade or Quin’s loved ones, neither of them would have come back from the Dark Side. They aren't badasses because they can use Force Lightning, they're badasses because they found the strength to give that up.

So if you genuinely think the Jedi "downgraded" by refusing to give the Dark Side more power than it already has on them... you're missing the point.

“It’s not about ripping things out of the sky using the Force or Force Lightning. A lot of people, they think “oh look how powerful Vader is, look how powerful the Emperor is, I want to play be the bad guy because I get these powers”. It’s an empty feeling, at the end of the day, after the moment. [...] The Dark Side is a spiral downward that you’re trapped in.” - Dave Filoni, “Force of Rebellion”, 2018

It was an upgrade.

Framing "balance" as "equal Dark and Light Side" is like consuming one (1) salad a day and one (1) whole bottle of vodka and calling that "balanced". No, buddy, that'll kill you. Because:

The vodka is better at being destructive than the salad is at making you healthy.

It's won't stay just one bottle per day. It'll eventually become two, three, etc.

Because as George Lucas stated time and again, resisting the Dark Side is a constant struggle.

So that's my two cents.

You've probably already heard about the recent announcement of a Dawn of the Jedi feature film, a biblical epic that will be directed by James Mangold.

And truth be told... it scares me SO much that we came THIS close to an Episode IX: Duel of the Fates that framed "balance" as - you guessed it - giving equal power to your light and darkness.

Like, how did this ⬆️ get as far as it did? Did nobody think to sit Colin Trevorrow down and explain to him that he fundamentally misunderstands how the Force works?

So all I can do is cross my fingers and hope James Mangold has a better grasp of - if not the lore (I wouldn't be surprised if the words "Je'daii" or "Tython" aren't uttered once in the film) - at least the message.

[furious-blueberry0]

Asajj Ventress

[smhalltheurlsaretaken]

Rewatching this scene for the sweet angst, something struck me. In hindsight it's extremely obvious but I'd never thought about it this way.

There's the very obvious parallels with Qui-Gon's death, down to Satine caressing Obi-Wan's cheek, there's that amazing bit of mirrored exchange, where Obi-Wan starts off confrontational and angry and Maul gloating, and then Obi-Wan becomes soft-spoken and empathetic and Maul starts to shake with rage and pain and can't even properly face him, and then there's this.

Maul boasts that the Dark Side is "more powerful than [Obi-Wan] knows," that Obi-Wan's "noble flaw" is a weakness, so why is he trying to make him more powerful? Why tell him to use the Dark Side? Why basically give him a crash course about how it works? Does he want Obi-Wan to retaliate? To escape?

The obvious answer is that Maul isn't trying to make Obi-Wan more powerful. After all, he's well aware that Obi-Wan is a dogshit fighter when he's angry.

Immediately after that last quote, he says "that is not the Jedi way, is it?" as a taunt, and again in The Lawless, he insists "You should have chosen the Dark Side, Master Jedi."

So he's simply trying to destroy him as a Jedi, right? Because he knows that's what make Obi-Wan who he is, and he blames Obi-Wan for robbing him of his status along with his life, so he wants to destroy Obi-Wan's life in the ways that matter (since, as Obi-Wan says, just killing him is nothing like destroying him). But if that's the case, then we're back to the "power" issue. What's the point of destroying Obi-Wan if it's by giving him what Maul claims is his own identity, and the key to freedom?

And imo the answer lies right here:

Why would killing Satine make Obi-Wan share Maul's pain? Why would Maul regard the pain of losing a loved one (something he's completely unfamiliar with at this point) as equal to his torment? Why isn't he chopping Obi-Wan in half and keeping him alive with Nightsister magick instead? Why would the murder of one of Obi-Wan's loved ones, picked almost at random, be THE "moment" Maul has been thinking about "for years"?

I think he really isn't talking about Satine's murder in and of itself when he talks of pain. The pain he wants Obi-Wan to share isn't the pain of loss, but very simply the pain of living in the Dark Side.

That's why Satine really is just a "tool" to his vengeance, as he says, and not the main point. That's why he's so enraged that Obi-Wan insists on showing him compassion even through his fear and anger - being kind leaves you open to grief but protects from the agony of the Dark.

Maul wants Obi-Wan to Fall, to stop being a Jedi, not because he truly believes the Dark Side gives you good things, but because he knows the Dark Side makes you miserable.

He tries to freaking teach Obi-Wan how to Fall, like Obi-Wan is a Sith apprentice, because being a Sith is the most miserable you're ever going to get! He tries to make Obi-Wan suffer by making him like him! He's so self-loathing his hatred of Obi-Wan materializes as self-hatred!

And hey, that greatly complements the end of the episode - Obi-Wan resists the Dark Side and escapes the planet, and Maul revels in it and immediately loses the only person he cares about and ends up crawling and crying while Sidious gleefully tortures him. Maul falls victim to every form of suffering he wanted to inflict on Obi-Wan and Obi-Wan flies away. In the end, Maul is proven right: being Fallen really f*cking sucks.

Really accentuate that Maul wanted relief above all when he sought out Obi-Wan in Rebels. He went to the only person who had shown him actual compassion, and the person he knew was best at resisting the Dark Side - so he could finally be free.

[mastermojo98]

Defeating Darth Vader

[dixieconley]

Purely as a writer of crack fic, I rebut with:

Neither the Light nor the Dark are evil. They're not even light or dark, simply two different approaches to emotional control -- two strategies, as it were, for coping with the Force. One for when you're capable of controlling your emotions and one for situations in which emotional control is impossible and contains a strategy from returning to a situation where control is possible. The enormous gray area in there is part of the problem. Some people can't control their emotions -- such as small children -- and as such naturally draw on both sides of the Force. Some people don't want to control their emotions. When those people have Force powers, they tend to be called "Dark Siders" (although there isn't an actual 'dark side', just a different way of talking to the Force essentially). When people with the Force actively try to inflict suffering on others in order to draw power from it? Those people are Sith and they are rabid demagol'ke regardless of their emotional control or lack thereof.

From my point of view, neither the Jedi or the Sith are aware of what their codes truly mean or what balance actually is.

And if, at some point, a Jedi who's been held captive/hostage/enslaved all too many times rediscovers this? Should be pretty cracky if it ever grows a plot. Head canons, huh?

i just had an argument about the jedi so now i’m going to rant about how i perceive them

so basically the sith are these evil extremists in the force who harness their hatred and stuff

to me that makes the jedi extremists in the opposite direction. anytime you feel a negative emotion just don’t? and don’t even think about favoring someone, you’ll turn evil immediately!

while i know there is a good reason to have these rules and they’re there from experience it is still very extreme and a lot of things could’ve been done differently.

for example; a child is taught from a young age that they’re not allowed attachment and that their negative emotions can cause them to fall into the dark side. of course they’re still going to feel attached to something one day. how would that child feel? inadequate? defective?

watching dune (part 2) really makes you think about organized religion and how it can be harmful. the jedi are basically a cult.

the argument was about how i don’t think the jedi were these angels they were made out to be and the other person has been brainwashed into thinking that that were.

would i rather be a child soldier who isn’t allowed to fall in love or love a parent figure more than the next guy or live a normal ass life and fall in love (optional) and live happy with the people around me??? 🤔

i feel like we need a middle ground

bc if anakin got that middle ground i’m sure things would’ve been completely different. if obi-wan hadn’t pushed him away and just said ‘i love you’ once i’m sure Anakin wouldn’t have felt like an outcast

but hey, that’s just a theory

[starfireproductions]

Ahsoka: Warrior, Outcast, Rebel, Jedi

Only a few days away from the new series starting online and looking forward to it. While some aspects seem a little off, there's no doubt that Rosario Dawson absolutely nails it as Ahsoka Tano. Second of my three planned projects for the show.

Full details can be found on my DA page here: https://www.deviantart.com/starfire-productions

[izzystizzys]

it’s canon to me that anakin skywalker and marshall commander fox are archnemeses of a shakespearean nature to eachother

why? well, fox’ life is a tragedy of galactic proportions. he’s a slave at best and straight up non-sentient property at worst, caught at the crossroads of being the face of the republic’s most corrupt establishment to his brothers who resent him for being forced to bear an authority he has no actual control over, and being the closest and easiest target for that very authority’s ire. made to enforce the rigged and deeply unjust laws against his own oppressed peoples, and no one understands better than fox how much coruscant truly despises them. the chancellor at the heart of it all, and anakin, the favored pupil - taken in by the flattery and empty promises like all the rest of them, the jedi most intimately connected to the senate who yet cares so little to know the clones who shed their blood in it every day that he never sees beyond his own very nose. no one asks the guard what they think, and fox despises them all for it, but the jedi who play at caring more than anything. it’s an impersonal, distanced dislike for the most part, but with skywalker it burns all the brighter for how often fox sees him walk the halls of the senate and never think to ask.

also fox cut anakin off in traffic once and he never forgave him for it

[short-wooloo]

The sith are not an oppressed culture forced underground by the Jedi

They're a deranged cult devoted to creating tyranny which they rule, murdering anyone they deem an enemy, and selfishly indulging in their wants no matter what it costs everyone else

Them being in hiding was their choice, they're a conspiracy, a shadow hiding within the society they are deliberately trying to destroy/warp into their image