#imo they're also both straight

[piratedog64]

I headcannon Seymour and Audrey as a T4T couple

[wonder-worker]

Wild how we know that Elizabeth Woodville was officially appointed to royal councils in her own right during her husband’s reign and fortified the Tower of London in preparation of a siege while 8-months pregnant and had forces gathering at Westminster “in the queen’s name” in 1483 – only for NONE of these things to be even included, let alone explored, in the vast majority of scholarship and historical novels involving her.

[qiu-yan]

based on this poll it seems we don't want lan wangji as chief cultivator

someone help him he's too morally good for politics :(

[coolspacequips]

I gotta give black sails it's flowers for having multiple bisexual poly relationships, mmf AND ffm at that lol

The first was such a delightful and unexpected twist that really puts a new light onto the entire thesis of the show, and then the second was literally one of my fav dynamics in the entire series, they were my favs and all got together??? Usually this only happens in indulgent fic, but not this time!!

(also something high-key funny (in a sad way) that it kinda starts as 'I'm so co-dependant I need you to hold my hand while I hook up with someone else that I was dubiously cheating on u with 🥺' and then they became a power throuple)

[bonefall]

the worst parent poll made me realize just how many ppl in the fandom are willing to jump straight into abuse apologia. bc on one hand you have ppl dumbing down crow's abuse to "him just being mean" and on the other end you have ppl saying that curlfeather didnt abuse frostpaw because she sacrificed herself and frost + her siblings love her so she couldnt possibly be an abuser. truly mindboggling stuff take these serious topics away from the fandom asap.

Part of me feels like it's because many in this fandom have a feeling that if a character's actions are abusive, it means you're "not allowed" to like them. Like there's an impulse where if you liked a character, it MUST mean they weren't THAT bad, because you'd personally never like "an abuser."

As if it reflects poorly on your own morality, as a person, that you connected with An Abuser. Understood them, even. Even if it was just a character.

If it's immoral to Like Abusive Characters, of course your reaction is going to end up being abuse apologia. To enjoy something isn't logical, it's emotional, so you will get defensive about it when questioned. When you do, it's not going to be based on logic because you didn't reason yourself into that position in the first place. It's an attack on you as a person.

I feel like that's often the root of abuse apologia in this fandom, and sometimes the world at large; "If I admit that this character/person IS abusive, it means I was doing something bad by liking them, so I have to prove to everyone else that they weren't or it means I'm bad too."

And to that I say... That's a BAD impulse! Grow up and admit you resonated with a character that did a bad thing! If that's an uncomfortable thought, sit with it!

Sometimes abusers are likeable! They usually DO think they're justified in their actions, or doing it for "a good reason," or were just too preoccupied to care. MOST of the time, people who commit abusive actions are also hurt or traumatized in some way. You might even empathize with them. None of this means their actions have to be excused or downplayed.

"Abusers" aren't a type of goddamn yokai, they're people just like you and me. You don't help victims of abuse by putting the people who hurt us in an "untouchable" category.

In fact, all it does is make you less likely to recognize your own controlling behavior. You're capable of abuse. People you love are capable of it, too. People who love YOU can still hurt you.

In spite of how often people regurgitate "It's Ok To Like A Character As Long As You're Critical Of Their Actions," every day it is proven to me further and further that no one who says it actually understands what that means.

All that said; I think it's no contest which one's a worse parent, imo.

They both mistreated their children, but Curlfeather did it through manipulation without verbal or physical abuse. She politically groomed her into a position of power so that she could use her as a pawn. It can be argued if this counts as child abuse-- but it's firmly still under the broad category childhood maltreatment, which is damaging.

(though anon I'm with you 100% at seeing RED when "but she sacrificed herself" is used as an excuse. Curlfeather's death does NOT CHANGE what she did to Frostpaw in life. I think it's a valid point to bring up when comparing her to another terrible parent for judgement purposes, such as in the context of this poll, but I really hate the implication that redemption deaths "make up" for maltreatment.)

Crowfeather, meanwhile, is textually responsible for putting Breezepaw through verbal AND physical abuse, as well as child neglect. His motivations include embarrassment from a hurt ego, revenge on his ex, and being sad because of a dead girlfriend. This abuse drives Breezepelt towards radicalization in the Dark Forest.

You could argue Curlfeather is a worse person for Reedwhisker's murder, but as a parent? It's not even a question to me. Crowfeather's one of the worst dads in WC.

[bloodyshadow1]

I'm really in a storm x wolverine mood. I don't normally care for m/f ships (because lets be real neither of them are straight) but I've loved the two of them together since I was a kid and first watched the animated eps One Man's Worth. It was just so refreshing to see from the played out love triangle that haunted the series and would never stop.

Storm and Wolverine were two people in love in the end of the world, and they were sweet with each other. I like them as friends, but they have one of the best relationships, platonic or romantic, in the history of X-men imo. I think what makes them work better than most is they're kind of the perfect version of friends to lovers, though they start out kind of antagonistic to each other.

But truthfully, I think that makes them work best is that they see each other completely for who they are. To Logan, she's not just storm the superhero, the goddess, or the most beautiful woman in the world. She all that and more because to him, she is Ororo. To Ororo it's the same thing, he's not just wolverine the edgy hero, the savage beast in man's skin, the heartbroken immortal. To her, he's also everything and more in Logan (or James depending on when, but I think to Ororo he is Logan).

They're a great contrast, that works to compliment each other in ways most x-men couples don't. It's not just about the big epic moments in their relationship. It's him jumping in front of her as a shield, be her side as a companion and partner, or behind her following her charge. It's about how gentle and kind she is to Laura, who is his daughter when no one else is. It's that he could be the angriest he's ever been and she could get him to stop with a word, that she's not afraid to stand in front of him with his claws drawn. It's when she is freaking out and letting her powers run wild, it's him tanking wind and lightning if it means being able to comfort her. It's him being willing to kill anyone that hurts her, that threatens her, that's rude to her, that makes her cry, but stopping short, both because he knows she wouldn't want that and also because he knows she can take care of her self and get her own justice. It's her never leaving him alone to wallow in his sorry when they lose someone, even when he tells her and everyone else to leave. It's the two of them having a slow gentle night together drinking and remembering.

Again I don't normally gush about m/f couples but I really love the two of them. And I hate that Marvel will never let the two of them be happy together, at least not for long. It genuinely bothers me how they'd be perfect for each other, but never get a chance to, while the same boring love triangle is still something after decades. I will ship these two in every form of x-men media no matter what marvel says because I'd rather have a few sweet moments with them being friends than most of their canon relationships. (not Romy, Rogue and Remy are also precious to me)

[autisticandroids]

i've been seeing ai takes that i actually agree with and have been saying for months get notes so i want to throw my hat into the ring.

so i think there are two main distinct problems with "ai," which exist kind of in opposition to each other. the first happens when ai is good at what it's supposed to do, and the second happens when it's bad at it.

the first is well-exemplified by ai visual art. now, there are a lot of arguments about the quality of ai visual art, about how it's soulless, or cliche, or whatever, and to those i say: do you think ai art is going to be replacing monet and picasso? do you think those pieces are going in museums? no. they are going to be replacing soulless dreck like corporate logos, the sprites for low-rent edugames, and book covers with that stupid cartoon art style made in canva. the kind of art that everyone thinks of as soulless and worthless anyway. the kind of art that keeps people with art degrees actually employed.

this is a problem of automation. while ai art certainly has its flaws and failings, the main issue with it is that it's good enough to replace crap art that no one does by choice. which is a problem of capitalism. in a society where people don't have to sell their labor to survive, machines performing labor more efficiently so humans don't have to is a boon! this is i think more obviously true for, like, manufacturing than for art - nobody wants to be the guy putting eyelets in shoes all day, and everybody needs shoes, whereas a lot of people want to draw their whole lives, and nobody needs visual art (not the way they need shoes) - but i think that it's still true that in a perfect world, ai art would be a net boon, because giving people without the skill to actually draw the ability to visualize the things they see inside their head is... good? wider access to beauty and the ability to create it is good? it's not necessary, it's not vital, but it is cool. the issue is that we live in a society where that also takes food out of people's mouths.

but the second problem is the much scarier one, imo, and it's what happens when ai is bad. in the current discourse, that's exemplified by chatgpt and other large language models. as much hand-wringing as there has been about chatgpt replacing writers, it's much worse at imitating human-written text than, say, midjourney is at imitating human-made art. it can imitate style well, which means that it can successfully replace text that has no meaningful semantic content - cover letters, online ads, clickbait articles, the kind of stuff that says nothing and exists to exist. but because it can't evaluate what's true, or even keep straight what it said thirty seconds ago, it can't meaningfully replace a human writer. it will honestly probably never be able to unless they change how they train it, because the way LLMs work is so antithetical to how language and writing actually works.

the issue is that people think it can. which means they use it to do stuff it's not equipped for. at best, what you end up with is a lot of very poorly written children's books selling on amazon for $3. this is a shitty scam, but is mostly harmless. the behind the bastards episode on this has a pretty solid description of what that looks like right now, although they also do a lot of pretty pointless fearmongering about the death of art and the death of media literacy and saving the children. (incidentally, the "comics" described demonstrate the ways in which ai art has the same weaknesses as ai text - both are incapable of consistency or narrative. it's just that visual art doesn't necessarily need those things to be useful as art, and text (often) does). like, overall, the existence of these kids book scams are bad? but they're a gnat bite.

to find the worst case scenario of LLM misuse, you don't even have to leave the amazon kindle section. you don't even have to stop looking at scam books. all you have to do is change from looking at kids books to foraging guides. i'm not exaggerating when i say that in terms of texts whose factuality has direct consequences, foraging guides are up there with building safety regulations. if a foraging guide has incorrect information in it, people who use that foraging guide will die. that's all there is to it. there is no antidote to amanita phalloides poisoning, only supportive care, and even if you survive, you will need a liver transplant.

the problem here is that sometimes it's important for text to be factually accurate. openart isn't marketed as photographic software, and even though people do use it to lie, they have also been using photoshop to do that for decades, and before that it was scissors and paintbrushes. chatgpt and its ilk are sometimes marketed as fact-finding software, search engine assistants and writing assistants. and this is dangerous. because while people have been lying intentionally for decades, the level of misinformation potentially provided by chatgpt is unprecedented. and then there are people like the foraging book scammers who aren't lying on purpose, but rather not caring about the truth content of their output. obviously this happens in real life - the kids book scam i mentioned earlier is just an update of a non-ai scam involving ghostwriters - but it's much easier to pull off, and unlike lying for personal gain, which will always happen no matter how difficult it is, lying out of laziness is motivated by, well, the ease of the lie.* if it takes fifteen minutes and a chatgpt account to pump out fake foraging books for a quick buck, people will do it.

*also part of this is how easy it is to make things look like high effort professional content - people who are lying out of laziness often do it in ways that are obviously identifiable, and LLMs might make it easier to pass basic professionalism scans.

and honestly i don't think LLMs are the biggest problem that machine learning/ai creates here. while the ai foraging books are, well, really, really bad, most of the problem content generated by chatgpt is more on the level of scam children's books. the entire time that the internet has been shitting itself about ai art and LLM's i've been pulling my hair out about the kinds of priorities people have, because corporations have been using ai to sort the resumes of job applicants for years, and it turns out the ai is racist. there are all sorts of ways machine learning algorithms have been integrated into daily life over the past decade: predictive policing, self-driving cars, and even the youtube algorithm. and all of these are much more dangerous (in most cases) than chatgpt. it makes me insane that just because ai art and LLMs happen to touch on things that most internet users are familiar with the working of, people are freaking out about it because it's the death of art or whatever, when they should have been freaking out about the robot telling the cops to kick people's faces in.

(not to mention the environmental impact of all this crap.)

[jaegerisim]

Vent post y'all are gonna hate me for.

I viscerally hate how the Duffers treat most of their non white or queer characters and I hate even more viscerally, how y'all big byler blogs in your circle jerk of other 5 big byler blogs casually like to ignore many red flags the show has.

Y'all like to say: "tHe DufFeRs ArE gReAt WrIteRs" and it's like girl, who are you lying to??? They aren't top shit writers at all. The Duffers are pretty mid imo. Yeah, they run a good show that's fun to watch and theorize abt , but that doesn't mean they're good writers cuz they're not.

1. they completely side lined Will during s3 for the sake of their straight romances: lumax, jancy, mlvn, duzie and partly stobin (even if stobin wasn't endgame, thankfully, Steve's intentions were clearly wanting to date Robin and they gave it a lot of screen time). Will was sidelined bc he didn't fit the straight romance plotline bc they planned to make him gay or whatever. Now in s4 Will and his feelings have been used as mlvn toilet paper. Yes, we like to say this is build up for byler but canonically, Will's feelings have been used to clean the shit mlvn leaves behind.

2. Billy was sympathized a lot during the last 2 seasons. They gave him the sad backstoryTM in order for ppl to feel sorry for him. Billy's backstory is literally Jonathan's but whatever.

3. El's anger issues are constantly girlboss-ified. They down play her bullying situation and literally just use it for El to be a ''girlboss" without realizing how triggering that is. As someone who has lived bullying, seeing it be ignored by canon and fanon is super sad. The whole Rink-O' Mania experience must have been so traumatizing for her yet, everyone absolutely forgets abt it 🤷🏻‍♀️

4. Robin, Erica and Argyle are stereotypical characters. Robin is the quirky lesbian with social anxiety, Erica is the badass black woman and Argyle is the Latino stoner that sells weed to white kids and works as a pizza delivery guy.

5. Altho Argyle and Eddie both do drugs, (Eddie actually sells K-12 to a minor and nobody batted an eye. He has a huge fan base). Eddie is held in a pedestal bc "poor thing 🥺 he lives in a trailer with his uncle 🥺". Tell me a single fact you know abt Argyle that isn't "he smokes weed", "he is Jonathan's only friend", "drives a van" and "he works at a pizzeria". Exactly, Eddie is given a useless backstory and Argyle isn't.

6. Dustin stopped being important to the plot sometime around s2 and s3. He is only there to curse and be mildly funny. My guy needs to hangout with ppl his age cuz he only hangs out with seniors.

7. El needs to stop having so much "I'M THAT BITCH" screentime like I need in s5 for El's arc to not just be her becoming more powerful and falling in love with Mike. I need the Duffers to explore her trauma and problems.

8. Angela should have been run over by the van.

9. Patrick should have been given a backstory that isn't the basic "strict black parents that hit their kids cuz they are a disgrace". Patrick's backstory is actually racist af, fight w the wall.

10. As Lex already said, they didn't trigger tag the ep where Jason and his friends assault Lucas and Erica. Like wtf? Why was that necessary? Why did I have to see a black boy being held at gunpoint by some white guy?? Was it relevant to the plot?? I don't think so. And then I've got to see ppl online be like "Jason wasn't that bad. He was just mourning" like bitch you can stfu. This is what happens when you make the racist assholes conventionally attractive.

Also the fact that Lucas's arc is fulfilled by him fist-fighting Jason and "embracing his weirdness" aka accepting he is black. His arc was not fulfilled at all cuz that ending spoke so loud to me. It showed how little empathy ppl have towards the struggles poc ppl living in the Midwest have. Y'all circle jerks can only see racism when it's super obvious.

Furthermore, parents complained when ST showed "an excessive amount of smoking" yet nobody batted an eye when Billy tried to run over Lucas, when Erica (an 11 y.o ffs) was chased by white kids or when Lucas was held at gunpoint by Jason.

All of this happened while they focused on Max's guilt and mourning that, yeah, are important but certainly not less important than racism!!!

11. In s3, they gave us that whole Nancy vs The Bigots arc that was honestly just triggering and useless. It didn't help Nancy's character at all, quite the opposite it put unnecessary angst.

12. Lonnie being presented as an abuser just for him to never be spoken of again. Can we please get to explore the trauma he left the Byers's with?

13. The fact that both queer relationships are considered "sloppy seconds" is extremely sad. Both Vickie and Mike are rebounding from their failed relationship with Robin and Will. These 2 ships have caused more commotion than Jancy and Jopper together! (These last ships are technically sloppy seconds too but everybody forgets that. Shocker!!)

14. Last but not least, ppl blame Argyle for being the one to get Jonathan into smoking weed as if Jonathan probably wasn't the one looking for it. Let me tell you, that you only find weed if you look for it.

[ew01z]

weird i feel like some force is compelling me to ask,,, what are your thoughts on krisnix and langworth during the 7 year gap with endgame narumitsu ?? the masses need to know

something crazy is happening ...... apologising in advance cause i think about this sooo much but have never articulated any of my thoughts on it but THANK YOU FOR ASKING this lives in my mind rent free

BASICALLY between the original aa trilogy and phoenix being disbarred, we know miles goes travelling, canonically he is a prosecutor in several jurisdictions but because i'm self indulgent i think he also took up lecturing at universities (unrelated, this concept just itches my brain)

at this point in time he knows he's in love with phoenix and has been for a considerable amount of time HOWEVER. because he catastrophises everything, he absolutely would have convinced himself that either phoenix is straight (looks left looks right) or he doesn't deserve phoenix or both. in the midst of this hardcore yearning, he meets lang Often. lang, who is actively trying to get into miles' pants quite brazenly (although i imagine miles doesn't notice at first)

they end up having this weird fwb situation wherein they sleep together, probably go on dates that aren't dates (sometimes case related, sometimes not) and imo end up like way more soft and intimate than the original fwb arrangement. but because miles is still yearning like a motherfucker, he's extremely emotionally unavailable. which would be fine except lang has definitely at this point caught some feelings

i'm imagining angsty shit like lang trying to hold miles' hand while they walk somewhere and miles just Not having it. or like wanting to cuddle/spoon after sleeping together and miles is like Nope. but because miles has developed some degree of care for lang, he feels super guilty about it so now he's brooding Even More. that being said, they still keep hooking up as the rules of toxic yaoi would dictate

on the OTHER hand we have krisnix which i saw someone describe as psychosexual warfare and honestly i can't think of a better way to describe it. phoenix definitely knew something was up with kristoph almost immediately. the issue w this is that unfortunately kristoph is also sexy so this posed a problem.

phoenix, who was undoubtedly extremely in love with miles, who didn't know if he possibly could or would ever confess this (especially now that miles is prosecuting abroad), originally got involved with kristoph both like professionally and in a sexy way because he was extremely intrigued with kristoph's terrifying vibes.

phoenix gets disbarred, adopts trucy etc etc, but as we know phoenix keeps kristoph close in order to try stop him from Literally Killing People and because he knew kristoph had a hand in the forged evidence that got him disbarred. however this Also ends up slightly more intimate than anticipated. phoenix hates kristoph's guts and yet .. they have toothbrushes at each other's apartments?? know how each other like their eggs in the morning?? i imagine even though trucy is young and extremely perceptive, she was also somewhat won over by kristoph too. in short, waaaay too in each other's orbits for either of their likings.

while all this toxic yaoi is going on, miles and phoenix have kept in touch sporadically. miles offering to fly home in a heartbeat because he knows phoenix is innocent and phoenix having his weird complex about accepting help. not wanting to tell miles too much because he knows kristoph knows Everything.

however, miles flies phoenix (and trucy too sometimes) out to wherever he's based to try covertly prove phoenix's innocence by looking at the evidence again, other case documents etc. during this time, i think they realistically both realise they're in love with each other but ultimately can't act on it due to distance and the kristoph situation. it would be at this point that miles halts the fwb situation with lang (angst likely ensues, although i imagine lang saw it coming to some extent and knew miles was truly in love with phoenix). however it's more complicated for phoenix, who has to keep up the appearance of normality so kristoph doesn't suspect anything. the more emotional aspects of his relationship with kristoph like the toothbrushes in each others apartments etc etc stops and the fwb situation dies down, although its less eloquent and more messy than the langworth situation (which i imagine was more of an actual cut and dry breakup)

but eventually miles does come back to japanifornia and the events of aa4 take place. phoenix gets his badge back, gay kisses miles and realises that if shi long lang has no haters then he's dead. miles and phoenix are definitely both aware of the relationships the other had before they were together, however phoenix wright is jealous and a bitch so now he hates lang's guts despite having never met him.

the end!!!!! i'll honestly be really surprised if anyone reads this all as this was Very self indulgent. this is just how my head filled the blanks in canon in the messiest, gayest way possible and i'm so glad i had an excuse to post about it

[actualmermaid]

Since I've spent the last month-plus neck-deep in queer Christian history research, I ended up with some thoughts™️ about "classical" Western homoeroticism vs. Christian homophobia.

Liberal Christian apologetics sometimes do a very annoying thing when asked to explain the homophobia in the New Testament epistles. Because it's real, it's there, and homophobic Christians take it as the Unquestionable Word of God. So obviously we have to do something about it.

The liberal explanation tends to go something like this: "the epistle writer is talking about the abusive and exploitative homosexual acts that were common in ancient Rome, not the loving/egalitarian/mutually respectful relationships that gay people are able to have today." And it's so frustrating because there is SOME truth in this. We and Paul both know that the Greeks and Romans were notorious pederasts and slave-abusers. And that's bad! It's super bad. I do agree that Paul/the epistle writer is condemning abusive behavior using language and frameworks that would have been available to him at the time. Deciphering the social context of the epistles can get messy.

But the annoying thing is this: it is not affirming to suggest that all gay people in the past were either abusers or their victims, and "we're more enlightened now" is a lie. We are not smarter than the Greeks. We are not more civilized than the Romans. We are not more pious than the medievals. (Hello there, Roman Catholic sex abuse scandals.) And there have always been gay people who have defied all odds to have loving, egalitarian, and mutually respectful relationships with each other, even if we do not know their stories or their struggles.

This is kind of the crux of John Boswell's "controversial" thesis: gay people have always existed, even if they had to conceal themselves and their relationships behind various protective structures. (I actually haven't read any of his books yet, so I'm not going to engage too deeply with the nuances of his arguments.) When people try to dismiss him, I suspect it's because they don't notice or appreciate what he probably noticed. I have a hunch that Boswell's arguments are not super intersectional and focus mostly on the privileged sphere of people who left written records in the Middle Ages, but hey, serious LGBTQ Christian history research has to start somewhere. I'll withhold judgment for now. But I do think he was totally right about one thing: Saints Sergius and Bacchus. They were totally a gay couple until somehow proven otherwise, IMO. The reason I think he was right is because he was able to notice the "classical" aesthetics of homoeroticism in their legend even though it might not obvious to people who don't know what they're looking for. Straight people reading the legend are like "there's nothing gay about this" and gay people are like "wow, this story is pretty gay."

If you've ever looked into Western gay history, you've seen two words: erastes and eromenos. This means "lover" and "beloved," the two sides of a classical Greek pederastic relationship. The Greeks did actually recognize an age of consent and had ideals of proper behavior that regulated these relationships, but these were still usually relationships between a teenage boy and an older man, which isn't great. They also had all kinds of weird ideas about the politics of penetration and so forth. The Greeks and Romans didn't really think that two people could really be equal to each other--in any relationship, there was always one who was sort of subordinate to the other. So it was "weird" for two social equals to be in a gay relationship, as opposed to one with one partner who was already "established" and was "showing the ropes" to a younger guy who needed some wholesome manly instruction. We may not be better, smarter, or more enlightened than people in the past, but we do have the ability to critique them and try to identify the harmful behaviors that we've inherited from them, so we can do better. We've come a long way since the days of erastes/eromenos relationships, but one thing has stuck around: the classical aesthetics of a "manly guy" and an "idealized youth" in love with each other.

Apropos of nothing, here's a photo of John Boswell and his longtime partner Jerry Hart. They were within a year of being the same age.

So anyway, this brings us back to the legend of Sergius and Bacchus. The version that Boswell translated takes great pains to show how Sergius and Bacchus were equals in every way. They're both Roman officers, they're about the same age, they sing in unison, and are united in the egalitarian love of Christ. However, they are still just a little bit unequal. Sergius is of a slightly higher rank than Bacchus.

To be clear, this whole legend is a literary creation, and it's got a bunch of Byzantine propaganda in it. It's not history, it's mythology. Whoever wrote it down would have been familiar with erastes/eromenos dynamics, because these were everywhere in classical antiquity. So they made sure to specify all the ways in which Sergius and Bacchus were equals, but took a firm position in ye olde fandom top/bottom discourse.

Throughout the legend, Sergius acts, and Bacchus is acted upon. Bacchus is killed first, and Sergius is temporarily demoralized. Bacchus then appears to Sergius in a vision encouraging him to stay strong. Sergius is so steadfast that they can't torture him enough to make him recant his faith, and he is beheaded. Even straight couples are not usually said to have been reunited in heaven, but Sergius and Bacchus are.

So, knowing that Sergius is the erastes and Bacchus is the eromenos in this story, we can start to notice it in iconography too. It's not always consistent, but sometimes icons will have Sergius' cloak curling protectively over Bacchus' head, or one of them taking a slightly more "authoritative" posture, etc.

Above all, they are always depicted as true equals--sometimes they almost look like twins.

Increasingly, modern icons are being made that explicitly communicate the idea that they were a gay couple. The one on the left was created by Robert Lentz, a Franciscan friar, for Chicago Pride in 1994. The one on the right makes the classical homoerotic aesthetic super explicit, and is by far the most sexually-suggestive "traditional-style" icon I have ever seen lol. Shoutout to this artist.

So to sum up: John Boswell knew what the fuck he was talking about. Also, none of this excuses the homophobia in the Christian scriptures or the homophobia that Christians continue to perpetuate. However, knowing what to look for in art and writing helps us understand that gay people were not magically granted the ability to have egalitarian relationships in the modern world, and THAT leads us away from problematic apologetics.

[knightotoc]

Trying to wrap my head around Fight Club 1996 vs American Psycho 1991. Both written by gay men making fun of "straight" men during the AIDS epidemic, but I'm having some trouble finding discussions of the stories through this lens.

They're making me think of how people idealize the 90s, considering them the peaceful "end of history" before 9/11 restarted it. These books are about men who have more than they need and are absolutely miserable, even thinking that a "Great War" would give them more purpose. But the authors themselves were living through a historic plague that the average person was ignoring and continues to downplay.

I think one huge difference between the books is Fight Club is genuinely funny and hot, and American Psycho will absolutely kill your libido. FC has edge, and AP is a smooth slide into hell. This might be because "Tyler" is middle class and Patrick is rich. Or because "Tyler" does at least appear to be making human connections, even if they are fucked up or just in his head, while Patrick is unable to connect with anyone, even himself.

Both of the movies deserve their great reputations, but there were a few passages in these books that made me think the stories would be better suited to a more abstract adaptation, even an animation or hybrid rotoscope project.

There's a huge motif in AP about all the men looking the same, and this turns out to be key to the ambiguity of Paul Owen's death, that is iirc lost in the film. It's such an big detail that the film gives me the impression that Patrick didn't do it, and the book gives me the impression that he did. In a similar way, in FC, I pictured the narrator and Tyler looking much more similar than they do in the movie. I'm pretty good at faces (though I did totally mix up Elijah Wood and Daniel Radcliffe yesterday LOL) so the live-action casting loses a lot of the effect from the writing.

I was also reminded of these books while I was reading, parodies with unreliable narrators in ridiculously horrible situations: It Happened In Boston?, Candide, Don Quixote, The Quest for the Holy Grail, The Knight of the Cart, The Song of Roland sorta (lots of medieval literature is like this imo)

[sky-fire-forever]

One thing I've actually been thinking about for awhile is the parallel between Mary Bonnet and Izzy Hands and, more specifically, how Ed and Stede are treated in their abandonment of them.

Izzy and Mary are mirrors of each other. Izzy is to Ed as Mary is to Stede. The one the captain is duty-bound to. The one they made a promise to stand by. Stede and Ed fail to communicate with them and when they do, they choose the wrong times and method (Ed talking around his boredom with his way of life while they are under threat of death, Stede surprising Mary with the boat). They don't listen to their respective partners (Ed basically ignoring Izzy while Izzy begs for a plan on how to not die, Stede not remembering that Mary hates the ocean). And Izzy and Mary are the caretakers for the people they're responsible for, with Ed and Stede only giving them attention when it's time to play (Ed choosing to stay in his cabin and making Izzy do most of the actual managing of the crew until Ed finds something new to be excited about, Stede being shown to ignore his children until it's time to play pirates). They also both lie to their partners about their plans when confronted (Stede claiming he'll "have it stopped" when referring to the boat before lying about having it made at all, Ed claiming he's planning on killing Stede even though he never wanted to). They both abandon their partners' plans (Ed deciding not to kill Stede, Stede running out on Mary). Izzy and Mary are both shown to be unhappy with their respective partners, but stay with them out of a sense of duty or responsibility (Izzy's threat to resign comes after he's been struggling to manage the crew and his life for some time, Mary saying straight up that she knows this isn't the life she or Stede wanted). There's like a million other things, but other people have made better posts about that

The point is that Discomfort in a Married State is about both Stede and Mary being unhappily married, but also Ed and Izzy being unhappy in the same dynamic. As much as they try, no one in either party are actually HAPPY with the way things are. Ed is bored out of his mind and feels like life is flat and has nothing to look forward to. Stede feels the same way about his life with Mary. Mary is dealing with an impulsive husband while taking care of her children and struggling to manage Stede's mood while still living her life in a way that doesn't make her miserable. Izzy does the same. Even though Mary and Izzy are upholding the relationship and staying true to their bond, they are obviously unhappy too.

What I'm interested in discussing is the way both Stede and Ed are treated by the narrative as it regards their betrayal of their partners.

Stede is shown to be in the WRONG for abandoning Mary. She's happier without him, yes, but it's pretty clearly stated that him just up and leaving her and their children was a DICK MOVE and he has to deal with that. He's made to come back to a world that no longer has a place for him in it. His children have forgotten him or resent him, his wife has found actual love with someone else, and he's no longer fit for the life he abandoned (not that he ever was, really). Stede is shown the consequences of his actions, how he hurt people by leaving and also how people are better off without him. He's punished by the narrative, made to feel uncomfortable and guilty. This makes sense!

Stede being depressed in his life is not an excuse to just... run away from it. We're shown that him leaving was a good thing, but him playing with the emotions of the people in his life by deciding when and if he wants them to be in his life at all and trying to dictate that just isn't the responsible thing to do. It's not until he finally sits and has an actual conversation with Mary where he listens to her that they're both able to move on fully. They're able to agree on an outcome, they Talk It Through and are both happier for it.

Ed imo is never treated the same way as it concerns his betrayal of Izzy. He lied to Izzy and then went back on their plan, doesn't say a word when Izzy is banished from the ship (doesn't even try to stop him from dueling Stede in the first place), and emotionally abandons him pretty much immediately after meeting Stede. Izzy is shown looking for direction and guidance from a man he trusts and who is supposed to be looking out for his best interests, only to be dismissed and mocked. Izzy repeatedly goes to Ed for direction, asks him "what do we do" or "you told me you would do this, so let's follow through" only for Ed to turn around and do something completely different. And then with the Act of Grace, he plans on running away and leaving Izzy behind entirely. Ed's betrayal of Izzy SHOULD mirror Stede's abandonment of Mary.

But Ed is never punished for it. The way Stede goes back to Mary in a time of crisis and the way Ed goes back to the crew (and Izzy) is the same situation. But where Stede has to deal with the consequences for his selfishness, Ed just... doesn't. He has to deal with his breakup, yeah, but not how he really was just going to leave the crew behind. He tortures and hurts his crew and specifically Izzy, but he's allowed back on the ship as long as he wears a cat bell. He doesn't even appear bothered by it. He never has a moment like Stede and Mary get where a conversation is had and faults are acknowledged on both sides.

Where Stede had to recognize his mistakes and grow, Ed gets off with a slap on the wrist. Mary gets better without Stede dragging her down, but Izzy falls apart without purpose until the crew give him a new purpose in being their unicorn

I don't necessarily think this is a bad thing or even poor writing if it was explored more. It mostly just perplexes me. Why make these connections between these characters at all? It fascinates me

I really wish we could see Mary and Izzy interact. Just once. So Izzy could meet someone who understands

[tobyisave]

Trust & Insecurity in Kiibo & Miu's relationship

(In response to @strawberrysweater ! Thanks for opening this can of worms and sorry for this huge post lmaooo)

To preface this: I do love them together!! I just enjoy looking for the places they might clash at times if they were actually in a relationship... So this is about the things that keep them from fully understanding/trusting each other. And ofc this is just my interpretation!!

My short answer:

(1) Miu only thinks she is valuable as an inventor and sexual object, (2) Most people only care about Kiibo as a scientific novelty, and (3) they both have JUST enough evidence to convince themselves that this is also how they view each other. Even if deep down they're only playing these roles in an attempt to get closer to another human being.

On top of that, even though they're especially vulnerable with each other, I think there's still a lot of misunderstanding between them that would be difficult for them to reconcile. First because they have some genuine points of conflict, and second because they each have problems communicating and reading people (i.e. reality distorting levels of abandonment issues & obligatory robot autism coding, respectively)

Elaboration under the cut:

PART A - Insecurities

You can see (1) and (2) a bit in their other relationships:

Miu is of course hypersexual at all times, and she gives inventions to Shuichi (FTE) and her fantasy lover (love suite) because, as she confesses herself, inventing stuff is the only way she knows how to show affection for other people besides offering them her body.

Her inventions and hypersexuality are also the only explicit points of connection between her and Kokichi, arguably the only other character she is remotely close to besides Kiibo and Shuichi.

So given that most of her onscreen relationship with Kiibo is sexual or scientific (or both) in nature, it’s easy for her to go on believing these are the only things she has to offer. It’s a bit self-fulfilling of course because she’s arguable the one controlling the direction of their relationship in the first place, and at this point I’m not sure she believes there’s anything else to her.

[Shout out to @cloudysonder for helping develop this take :P]

I get the impression Kiibo has met a lot of people over his life who only want to talk about how cool it is that he’s a robot, even though that’s not a part of his identity he initially likes to bring up.

In his FTE with Shuichi, he goes straight into 'demonstrating my functions' mode as if it's the only way he knows how to talk to people

We see him treated in this fetishized way in-game too: with Kokichi chasing him to be “friends with a robot”; with Kaede’s FTE asking him invasive questions and touching his buttons without asking; and in postgame with Kazuichi basically assaulting him and trying to take him apart out of scientific curiosity --- all of these within just his first or second interactions with these people!

So it's a BIG thing for him to willingly let Miu sit there and take him apart, when he already spends so much time fending off virtual strangers who don't respect his bodily autonomy. And he's not used to people taking a genuine interest in him as a person so he’s hesitant to let himself believe Miu is any different, especially when her interest is so explicitly centered around his biology.

Plus as long as Kiibo is physically dependent on Miu, there's going to be a lot of room for insecurity to fester on BOTH sides:

"Does Kiibo really need me or does he just need my technical skills? Does he want to do these favors for me or does he feel like he has to?"

"Does Miu really care who I am or does she just want to gawk at my body like everyone else does? Does she care who I am or am I just the first boy(?) to give her the time of day? Does she want to help me or does she just know she’s the only one who can?"

This is the biggest hurdle IMO because it's a necessarily unbalanced relationship, and it will have to continue for the foreseeable future, no matter how they feel about each other.

PART B - Respect/communication

Another thing is that I don't think they fully respect each other — kind of for the same reason the rest of the group doesn’t respect them either

Miu might not consider Kiibo a person. We know Kiibo was worried about this; when asking Shuichi to use the electrohammer on him he explains, "The outcome will settle once and for all how Miu perceived me." This, and the fact she says robots aren’t people in trial, make me pretty confident that she has never looked him in the eye and said "I consider you a person."

I think she has a complex relationship with Kiibo’s personhood. On one hand if he’s a thing then it’s much easier for her to control him (esp given what we see of their relationship) and this soothes her anxious heart by ensuring that he can’t abandon her.

At the same time, if this is the case, then his coerced/artificial love isn’t worth as much as it would be if it came from an autonomous human person — to her insecure mind, it becomes Miu alone in her room playing boyfriend girlfriend with a doll, if that makes sense. 

To clarify, I’m not saying she BELIEVES he’s just an object, but it’s an idea that both comforts and torments her.

It's worth noting, too, that Miu doesn't always respect people's consent. This is especially risky when you factor in their mechanic-robot relationship (which already comes with a difficult power dynamic) and Kiibo’s naive/somewhat people-pleasing personality.

On Kiibo’s end: I think it’s safe to say he finds her rude/inappropriate at first (though I think it's really sweet that he uses the much more euphemistic description 'brash and spirited' after getting to know her). They also have some pretty stark moral differences --- Kiibo is distraught to learn that Miu wasn't above murdering their classmates, for example.

More importantly, I headcanon he has a lot of difficulty understanding her at all  – on an emotional level, yes, and and on a literal level he just straight up doesn’t understand many of the sentences she says either

K: “Most of that was unintelligible nonsense, but…” after Miu explains her “secret woman weapon." IMO his decision to phrase this as an insult helps mask the fact he's not familiar with all the lewd references she just made

He also has problems understanding emotions from the start, and Miu is DIFFICULT to track because she cycles through emotions so rapidly.

+ he might find it hard to extrapolate that many of the things she does are part of a facade. The crass egotistical miu who says he’s not a person is equally as real to him as the deeply insecure miu wants to believe he is a person (if not more real…)

PART C

Also these bullets from my personal doc I don't have the willpower to expand on atm:

They are both so prone to misinterpreting people unkindly

They’re also both so misled about how committed a relationship is supposed to be. Like I think Kiibo would consider a confession from literally anyone to be tantamount to a proposal (based on his love suite scene). And Miu wouldn’t be quite so fast but i do think it’d still be a huge deal for her because she falls very hard very easily (based on her FTE). Which is all very cute but being plunged into a big commitment like that can be crazy stressful, esp for two teens who have never dated before (imo) and have no frame of reference. [I was actually just going to post about this part lol]

PART D

All that said... I love them together and I DO think they could make it work without too much heartbreak. A lot of the things I describe as problems here could easily be taken as strengths.

e.g. Their misunderstanding of how relationships work ironically makes them more compatible, since they're both ready to go whole hog (if Kiibo determines that he actually likes her that is). Miu's rapidly fluctuating emotions are confusing, but on some level I think he'd admire how deeply and obviously she is able to feel things. And of course Miu as an inventor has a deep (almost objectum like??) respect for machines that helps Kiibo accept that he can be a robot and a person at the same time, and is probably the only one in the class who understands just how impressive he really is.

Thanks thanks THANKS for reading if you seriously read all that!! Mwah!!!!

I would love to hear anyone's takes on my takes too :P I haven't been rotating them in my head for too long yet so I'm still developing my interpretations...

[crucialplayer]

how good are zodiac signs at lying + tier ranking 

!! everything is based purely on my experiences with signs, written with no other purpose than to share my observations and be unserious. 

excellent liars + can cause a significant amount of stress 

Pisces (unintentionally made it to the top). You know how it's said to be a good liar you have to believe in ur lies? Queens and kings of that. Live in another dimension and process everything through their mood (and it changes A LOT)/or their relationship with the person they are talking about. Hence the «they’ve changed» and «it's different this time». They rarely lie out of a negative spot tho, it's simply how their emotional filter works and distorts reality for them. Also despite being good at lying they just use those Pisces eyes to get what they want. This imo works more for Pisces Risings and Pisces Venuses. 

Libras. It's vital to them to be liked and well thought of so a lot of the time they’ll say and do whatever grants them precisely that. Can be very eloquent with their words, super socially conscious. Can navigate a convo without ever sliding into remotely misbalanced territory. Ig a libra lie giveaway would be if they are in a situation with two or more extreme opinions – it might cause them to get overwhelmed and lost. 

pretty good + can cause a moderate amount of stress 

Geminis. Not surprising I know. Earned and fought for their rightful place. Will lie for fun (mostly). Their motivation for lying is that of an elementary schooler – to see exactly how far they can get away with. Nevertheless, imo they are not as evil with it as they are made out to be. It's merely a way of getting mentally stimulated at any time of the day because without it they would honestly die. Quite easy to deal with too. You either play their game and start lying for shits and giggles too (works if ur goal is for them to like u) or ignore them (it takes about 2 minutes until they get bored and move on to another). Tbh anything in Gemini in ur big 6 will give u this result to some degree. The reason why they're not higher is cause their lies typically don't have the longevity of those above.

Сancers. Cannot stand feeling threatened so they’ll do anything and I mean anything to keep that sense of inner safety – including lying. Basically, if something is even slightly intruding on what they consider their comfort limits –  they will lie their way back to their precious shell. Ig it gets a bit problematic cause often they feel the threat without there being one. And since they are literally the opposite of clearing the air right on the spot you’ll seldom get a chance to catch that moment when they get into their defensive stand. Works for Sun or Rising/Mars maybe?? + If u have both bonus points to the insanity u might cause.

might try to lie but will probably fail + no stress pure fun

Leos. Will try to lie if they feel like their ego might suffer a bit or their social status is under attack, but you will notice it cause honestly there’s not a single emotion they can hide on that face. I’ve noted that they normally hate lying as a phenomenon in general (might be cause it makes them feel unstable and they are a fixed sign + all that ego protection). Besides they don't consider lying as something needed for them to gain love (them being themselves usually does it). Prideful lil babies (I’ve seen Leo Sun or Leo Stellium be like that). Aries. Оk these ones often don't even try. Don't have the patience to analyze the situation and how it might benefit them to lie – they rush straight into react mode (and they are pretty entertaining in it). Same as Leo don't consider lying necessary for them to get what they want – they just go after it and get it.

сan lie in theory but prefer other methods of torture

Scorpios. Lying is too easy and they like to be elaborate with their victims opponents. In all seriousness in my experience they won't appreciate you lying, and won't lie too. They crave that soul bonding hard and lying doesn't really say I want to belong to u with every ounce of my being. If they like you chances are you are sincere in how you feel towards them and they will let you know too. This obviously all falls apart if you have wronged them in some way. Then bye. 

Tauruses. It’s simply tooooo much work and effort. Also generally requires reacting quickly and they would rather exit the situation altogether. And you will like them for other reasons and they know that so ig that’s why they just chill and wait for theirs to come naturally. And it does. And they will be smug about it.

can lie but actively choose not to + hence can cause a lot of stress

Virgos. Would never deprive themselves of the pleasure of being mean critical (esp Virgo suns). Feel like it's their life mission to point out flaws and inconsistencies so they won't tell white lies regardless they like you or not (might be super annoying to you – to them it's everything). But it's useful to have someone that tells you how it is (this line def belongs to Virgo too). Also think they are too smart anyway so they’ll get what they need through that.

Sagittariuses. Pretty obvious. In their world it's either telling the truth or having a heart attack right then and there. It can be so bad that you will ASK them to lie and they still won't. I think it's partially because to them any thought that comes up in their head is worth sharing so there u have it. Good thing they can be funny with it but not always… If they have Sag Sun and Sag Mercury it's this but on steroids. 

could not care less + stress levels caused are moderate but for other reasons…

Capricorns. Too busy to notice you, let alone talk to you, let alone lie to you… But if they do a) you have something they need for their GOAL therefore you have value b) ur somehow got to their inner circle but they still won't lie. They will tell you how it is only to save their time. Can be mean (but honest!!!) but I think they genuinely don't realize it (unlike Virgos). 

Aquariuses. Also too busy but usually with made-up stuff. Don't need to lie since people don't understand them either way. Too focused on bigger plans bigger picture bigger anything to come down to such low topics like intricacies of human interaction. To be fair they are really chill and really could not be bothered. 

[gureumz]

if only you knew (that i can see you)

rating: explicit

member: jay

premise: you're enhypen's new manager and it's palpable how instantly this one member takes a liking to you. you're adamant about keeping things professional but he's very persuasive.

notes: fem!reader, dom!jay, slightly dubious consent, dirty talk, mentions of vomiting, unprotected sex, clothed sex, creampie, a quickie (but a very hot one imo), office romance-ish (?), mentions of drinking, lmk if i missed anything!

a/n: fourth of my 1k follower special! oh, writer's block is a bitch. one whole month of nothing and i churn this out in one night. big, big apologies if i've become rusty over the past month, but i couldn't get this story out of my head. also, title is by from madame swift's 'i can see you'. please enjoy!

you feel like throwing up. right this minute, right at this very second.

you're fully convinced that you're about to hurl all over your pristine brand-new sneakers, spewing chunks of this morning's breakfast (a single cup of iced coffee) on the company's shiny, newly-waxed floor.

you're moments away from it, you can feel something catch in your throat. this is it, you know this is it. goodbye to your new job, your company benefits, goodbye to this godforsaken earth—

"sorry, are you lost?"

you whip around, eyes wide. towering over you is a man, sharp-featured, lean, and unbelievably handsome.

you swallow, trying to find an answer to give.

"i'm the new assistant manager. sejin-sunbaenim told me to come straight to dance practice room 2," you manage to say with as minimal tremor as you can. the man raises both eyebrows.

"oh, it's you," the handsome stranger says, bowing. "you're ______."

you nod, chest loosening at the sound of your name. so you're in the right place, after all. one less thing to worry about.

"that's me," you confirm, bowing back.

"cool. i'm jay," the man responds with an easy smile. he reaches out and you grasp his hand in yours.

oh, he's so warm.

"i...know," you mumble out, chuckling nervously.

jay grins. he drops your hand, motioning to the door behind you.

"sejin-nim is inside. so are the others," jay informs, reaching over for the door handle. you sidestep, and for a moment, you feel like a nervous bunny, jumping all over the place and flinching at the slightest sound.

in your defense, the last thing you want is to cross any boundaries on your first day.

jay smiles at you again, pulling the door open. "after you."

you blink, momentarily distracted by the dimple on his cheek. you quickly regain your bearings, smiling sheepishly as you step into the room.

you're quickly whisked into a flurry of introductions. each enhypen member seems equally excited, or at least pleased, to meet you. they shake your hand, bow, and greet you with bright, boyish smiles.

you're dazed by the end of it all, but at least you're not thinking about throwing up anymore.

"you have the calendar i shared with you, right?" sejin, your superior, asks after the members have difted off, busying themselves with warm-ups.

you recall the zoom conference you had with sejin a week ago, how you pored over every phone number, email, and address pertinent to your job as enhypen's new manager.

"yes," you answer.

"everything's there. all orange tasks are mine, and all blue ones are kyungjun's. he's not here now, but you'll meet him probably tomorrow. you can pick another color for your tasks in the mean time," sejin explains.

"i'll email you every morning with things i need help with and you can add those to the calendar afterward," he continues. "for today, i just want you to shadow me to see what a typical day looks like for us."

you nod along, occasionally glancing at your phone, the managers' calendar flashed on your screen.

you ignore the way your heart drops when you see the stacks of orange and blue piled on each tile.

as if reading your thoughts, sejin chuckles beside you. "it may look like a lot, but the boys make it easier. they're total professionals."

you laugh along, turning back to the group. your eyes immediately settle on jay who's quick to catch your gaze.

he smiles and you smile back.

---

"________-nim! how was your first day?"

you look up from your phone, momentarily abandoning the email you were composing, an inquiry sejin assigned you to send to a local media franchise. you were on your fifth reread.

you realize with a start that it's jay.

he sets a large paper bag down on the table. you're late to notice the drink carrier he has in his other hand.

"well, however it went, i got you a drink and dinner to commemorate your first day," jay adds, taking one out of the two drinks from the carrier. he slides the cup towards you and your cheeks immediately heat up.

"you didn't have to," you say, laughing nervously. "you're too kind, jay."

jay beams at this. he pushes the paper bag towards you as well.

"this is from all the members," jay informs. "as thanks for working hard today."

before you can reply, jay bows briefly before waving goodbye and walking away.

you stare at the paper bag for a few moments, a weird flutter taking over your body.

---

jay is...strange.

or, at least, you think he's been acting strange.

it's only been a little over a month since your first day. it was easy for you to fall into a routine, seeing as the group is in between promotions. a photoshoot every other day, a pre-recording once a week, dance practice every day after dinner. the most stress you've had so far was when you forgot to phone the van driver about a change in schedule, leaving you and half the members stranded at a certain broadcast station.

jay had comforted you then, as you were near tears. he laid a hand on your shoulder, his thumb rubbing against your sweater in an attempt to soothe you.

"it happens," jay had said. you didn't even notice his hand had moved from your arm down to the small of your back.

"you're doing great," he added before withdrawing his hand.

you thought about that moment the whole night. how warm his touch was, how gentle he handled your near-breakdown.

he was your responsibility and yet jay was the one that came to your rescue.

you went out on your first official team dinner a few days after that, with the whole managerial team present along with the members. sejin recommended a quaint, yet highly-acclaimed restaurant off one of the side streets around the company.

jay had squeezed in beside you at the table, so close you can feel his body heat radiating off him. a few times his knees knocked against yours but neither of you acted like you noticed.

it was then the first inkling of suspicion rose in you.

could jay be...?

surely not. he was just being nice. he's the literal definition of a gentleman. it's just the way jay is.

of course. it's totally in his character to bring you coffee almost every day. it's normal that he rushes to open every door you walk through. there's definitely nothing weird about him gifting you an expensive box of chocolates for completing your first month on the job.

he's not flirting with you. that would be silly.

you sigh, shaking off these thoughts as you approach the small practice booth at the end of the hall. you can hear the sound of a guitar from the inside.

"jay?" you call out, knuckles knocking against the glass door. the guitar stops.

"yeah?" comes a muffled voice from inside. you slowly push the door open, peeking your head in.

jay is seated in front of the computer, his electric guitar cradled in his arms. he's sporting a loose white shirt and black joggers. his hair is unstyled, black tresses falling over his eyes. he brushes it back with his fingers.

"you have a recording like—," you pause, checking your watch. "right now."

jay gives a start, checking his phone. he groans, setting his guitar down on its stand.

"right," he mutters under his breath. he sighs, rising up from his seat.

you watch as he stretches, the bottom of his shirt riding up to reveal the top of his boxers peeking out from his pants. you catch a glimpse of a very thin sliver of skin.

you try your best to ignore that.

"you better hurry before the producer kicks both of our asses," you urge lightly, crossing your arms. you've been trying to be more assertive with the members lately, seeing as you've already had enough time to know more about them and how they're supposed to be spending their days under your supervision.

"yes ma'am," jay replies, approaching you. you step out of the doorway to let him pass.

he doesn't move for a few seconds and you peer up at him with a questioning look on your face.

"can i ask you something?" jay blurts out, shoving his hands in his pockets.

you glance around to make sure no one is nearby. you have a feeling he's about to ask something that's a little less appropriate for work.

"are you single?"

you nearly choke on your own spit. you had a sense of what he was going to ask, but you never expected him to be this direct.

"may i know why you're asking?" you reply, treading carefully. one wrong move and you can end up dismissed from this long-coveted job of yours.

jay shrugs. "just curious."

you chew on your lip, contemplating how to go about his question. you let out a breath, deciding that there's no harm in being truthful.

"i am," you confirm.

jay nods. "same."

you quirk an eyebrow at this. cocking your head to the side, you ask, "really? how come?"

"i'm sure you see how busy we are," jay counters with a smirk.

it's your turn to shrug. "that doesn't stop jake from texting that girl from—"

"you know about that?!" jay cuts in, his voice dropping to a whisper.

you snicker, shaking your head.

"i know a lot of things, jay. i'm with you guys almost every waking hour of the day," you inform.

jay looks at you with an unreadable expression. something between fear and confusion. it makes you giggle.

"i technically should take it up with HR and higher management, but the other managers and i agreed that until you guys decide to go sneaking off on late-night dates, we'll keep it under wraps."

jay's mouth hangs open, still in disbelief.

"so, if you're planning on taking some girl out, you better let me know," you say, giving jay a pointed look.

jay's expression changes then as he ducks his head to avoid your eyes.

"not gonna happen," he says.

jay gives you a curt nod and smile before pushing past you out into the hallway.

---

you and jay don't talk about that night.

you know that he knows that you know the reason he asked about the state of your love life. he definitely did it on purpose to open up the discussion.

you're determined to squash the notion before it develops further.

you're not doing it to be mean. you'd never want to hurt jay on purpose. but you have a job to do and a reputation to keep.

jay knows that. he should know that.

you get the impression that even if he did, he doesn't care. not when he's sauntering over to you now, a bag of food and an iced coffee in his hands.

"mind if i join you?" jay asks, already sliding into the seat across you. there's barely any other people in the hybe cafeteria but a nervous chill still runs up your spine.

this is nothing. just a friendly lunch between a manager and her member.

"you didn't leave me much choice," you say with a laugh.

jay shrugs, winking at you playfully. you quickly avert your eyes. better to not say anything.

"i like your outfit today," jay compliments, taking a sip of his coffee.

you glance down at yourself. you're in a plain, short-sleeved blouse, white and a little sheer. you paired it with comfortable black corduroy pants and sneakers.

nothing special. to you, at least.

you had to feign ignorance on the way jay had stared at you the whole morning while you were in a meeting.

"thank you," you reply curtly, taking a bite of your kimbap.

"i'm taking you guys home tonight." you quickly revert to another subject.

"kyungjun-sunbaenim has to attend to other things so he assigned me to make sure all of you get home safe and in one piece for today."

jay nods. "got it."

"you guys don't have anything scheduled after 11 so i expect all of you to be at the lobby by that time," you add.

you can feel jay staring as you continue to pick at your food. you fight the urge to look up.

"will do," he finally says.

---

"do you need me to walk you guys up?"

you lean out of the passenger side window, watching as the members file out of the vans in front of their apartment building. thankfully, they all heeded your word, showing up at the lobby at 11:05, ready to head home for the day.

as if to prove that the heavens were on your side, the ride home was awfully quiet, too, which was a surprise considering that it was jay, jake, and sunghoon that decided to ride along with you.

jungwon shakes his head to your question, walking up to your side of the van.

"we're good, _______-noona," jungwon says. "you get home safe, though!"

riki nods along, skipping up to you. "yeah, or else jay hyung is g—"

the youngest is cut off with a sharp elbow to his ribs by jay. riki splutters out in disbelief, complaining, but he's herded off by sunoo.

"good night," jay calls out over his shoulder, waving at you.

you wave back, observing as the boys enter the building, finally letting yourself relax as the last of them disappear through the doors.

---

a vibration jolts against your cheek and you gasp as you're ripped right out of your deep slumber.

you realize in your sleep-hazed mind that it's your phone that woke you up, ringing incessantly. you must have fallen asleep with your face against it.

you press the 'answer' button, the faint beginnings of irritability creeping up your chest.

"hello?" you say, voice sharp.

"_______-noona? i'm so sorry for waking you if you were sleeping, but i didn't know who else to call. we're sorry but we went out to drink after you dropped us off and jay hyung had a little more alcohol than he could handle."

the voice rambles on and it takes you a second to remember who it belongs to.

"jungwon? where are you? who's with you?"

a short pause. you hear the faint sound of a voice, rapidly complaining. you think it's sunoo.

"we took a cab back to our apartment but jay hyung won't get up so we're out here on the front steps," jungwon explains.

"he's just too heavy for sunoo-hyung and i while he's in this state, and the rest of the hyungs are already passed out upstairs," he adds.

you press a hand on your forehead. this can't be happening right now.

a million thoughts run through your head but you will them to quiet down, focusing instead at the task at hand.

"how about riki?" you ask.

"nothing is going to wake him up now, noona," jungwon says, exasperated.

"please, we're not in the—hic—best state, either," jungwon continues. you can still hear sunoo in the background.

you fight the urge to groan.

"okay, okay, i'm on my way," you finally say.

---

you practically fly out of the taxi, not even bothering to wait for your change. you see three figures at the front of the building and you immediately recognize them as jay, sunoo, and jungwon.

"what the hell, jay?" you ask, rushing over. sunoo and jungwon have resigned themselves to sitting on both sides of jay's sprawled figure on the stairs.

jay is on his side, hands tucked under his head as if sleeping on the most comfortable bed instead of rough concrete.

"we tried," sunoo says with a pout. his eyes are glassy, but his speech seems fine. probably tipsy, you think.

"i can carry him just fine," jungwon speaks up. his speech is definitely slurred. "but that's when he's conscious and when i'm not drunk off three bottles of soju."

"jesus christ," you say under your breath.

"okay, i'll grab from under his arms, sunoo you grab his legs, and jungwon, support his torso and that big fat ass of his," you instruct, positioning yourself at jay's head.

jay giggles suddenly, eyes blinking open slowly.

"you think my ass is fat?" jay asks, barely comprehensible with how drunk he is.

"shut up," you respond, huffing. you tuck your hands at his armpits, hooking your arms through.

sunoo and jungwon follow suit.

carrying a nearly six-foot-tall man weighing more than what you can deadlift in the rare times you're at the gym was exactly as difficult as you expected, even with additional help.

it took the three of you ten whole minutes to haul jay towards the elevator and about fifteen to get him down the hall to their unit.

only god knows where the apartment's security guard is amidst all this.

"just a little more," you pant as you combine your efforts to drag jay towards his shared bedroom with jake.

you kick the door open as you heave all your might into getting jay across the threshold.

the room's empty. jake's probably in heeseung's room.

your legs give out before you can get jay to his bed. sunoo and jungwon fall to their knees as well, all three of you breathing heavily from the effort.

"i need to throw up," jungwon declares, dashing out of the room.

"i need...," sunoo pauses, a hand held up as if to silence you, despite you not having said a word.

"i need water and an aspirin," sunoo finally says, stumbling out of the room as well.

he's gracious enough to close the door behind him.

you get up, feeling around for a bedside lamp, muttering a soft 'yes' when you finally feel a switch between your fingers. you turn the lamp on, bathing the room in a soft yellow glow.

you turn to see jay's slumped figure, his back resting on the foot of one of the beds. you approach quietly, kneeling down next to him.

"you're such an idiot," you whisper, brushing back some of the damp hair away from jay's forehead. "who told you to get this drunk?"

"no one," jay responds. you nearly jump, not expecting jay to be lucid at this point in time.

"you know i'm gonna have to tell the other managers about this," you softly berate jay, tugging off his jacket. he giggles, holding his hands over his chest.

"why are you undressing me? do you wanna fuck me or something?" jay asks in his drunken stupor.

you roll your eyes. "no, stupid, i'm making sure you're as comfortable as you can be while in this state."

"liar," jay counters. "you so wanna fuck me."

"i could report you for inappropriate behavior," you reply quietly, throwing jay's jacket to the side. you reach for the topmost buttons of his polo.

"see? you're getting me naked," jay continues, reaching out to take ahold of your wrist.

you stop to look up and you realize that jay has his eyes open, pupils focused on you. his grip tightens around your wrist as he pulls you closer.

"you know right?" jay asks.

your first instinct is to feign innocence, to ask him what he's talking about.

but you do know.

"you're drunk, jay," you supply rather simply. "we'll talk tomorrow."

jay smiles, reaching out to cup one side of your face. you freeze, letting jay's thumb run along your cheekbone before traveling down to your lips. he traces the curves of your mouth, staring intently.

you don't know whether you leaned in or if jay pulled you down, but a moment later, your mouth is against his, a desperate, messy press of lips. he licks right into you, and you can't help the groan that escapes you.

you can't be doing this. this is a clear breach of protocol, this is illegal, even.

"jay," you whisper against his lips. "jay, please."

jay pauses, pulling away slightly. he nuzzles against your cheek, waiting for you to speak.

"we can't keep doing this," you say, prying jay off you. "at least not when you're still drunk."

jay gives you a long, hard look. his eyes are half-lidded as if a step away from sleep. his mouth is parted, his chest rising and falling rapidly.

"i'll remember this tomorrow," jay declares.

you sigh, leaning in to peck his lips one last time.

"we'll see."

---

the whole thing blew up in the members' faces. and yours.

you got a good telling-off from sejin, but thankfully nothing reached upper management. the whole group was called into one of the conference rooms the next day and sejin spared no one in his heated scolding. not even riki.

('i was sleeping!' riki had argued. sejin planted his hands firmly on his hips and listed the many different ways ni-ki could have contacted any of the managers to at least inform us of the older members' whereabouts)

you stood very still in the corner, having already received the tamer, abridged version of sejin's speech.

it's been a week now and everything was as normal as it could be, the only difference being that the whole group would be required to have their locations turned on at all times for the next few weeks until management was sure they wouldn't pull another stunt like that again.

oh, and you've been avoiding jay like the plague.

you're thankful that he made no effort in approaching you outside of what was appropriate for work and whenever he did, he'd look anywhere but your face.

it hurt you a bit to see him like this, knowing that he's probably embarrassed with the whole thing. though, you're not quite sure if he's also affected by or if he even remembers the incident in his room.

you're so deep in thought while storming down the hallway, that you nearly run into someone. their firm arms reach out to keep you steady as you try and regain your balance.

you look up and all air is knocked out of your lungs.

"oh, hi jay," you greet, stepping back. your palms clam up as memories of that night the week before flash in your mind.

"hi, ________-noona," he replies.

seconds tick by and no one talks. you know you should say something, anything. an apology, a snarky remark, or a lame excuse to get away. but nothing comes to mind.

"i'm sorry about what happened," jay finally cuts through the silence.

you shake your head, offering him a smile. "we've been over it, jay. quite thoroughly, if by sejin-sunbaenim's standards."

"that's not what i meant," jay continues. he's looking you in the eye.

you gulp, your insides churning.

"that's fine," you begin, keeping your voice as steady as you can. "we can just forget about it."

jay sighs. "i'm not sorry that it happened. i'm sorry that i needed to be drunk to let you know how i was feeling."

you're struck speechless, your brain going haywire. how do you respond to that?

"jay, you know we can't," you deflect, taking another step back. jay follows, standing over you. you feel so small, so vulnerable under his gaze.

"why not? the worst that could happen is you'll be transferred to another artist, another department," jay protests. he takes another step forward.

all you can do is stare down at the floor.

you want it, too. so bad. but you can't risk it. you're not ready, everything's still too uncer—

you feel a pair of hands on your face. you gasp, eyes darting around to see if anyone is in the vicinity.

"j-jay, not here—"

you're pulled forward, jay's strong grip around your arm. he practically drags you to a nearby supply closet, yanking the door open and pushing you in.

worry gnaws away in you as you remember the surveillance cameras in the hallway. those thoughts are immediately pushed away when you feel jay press up against you. you hear him rummage around for a switch, and suddenly, the cramped space is illuminated with dim, yellow lighting.

the closet couldn't be more than a few feet wide both ways, just enough to accommodate two people standing practically on top of each other.

jay grabs your hips and presses himself to your frame. you stifle a gasp as you feel him poking through his pants.

"i want you," jay says lowly, large hands traveling down to your ass. he holds them firmly, squeezing with all his might.

you moan, your hand flying up to your mouth.

"you want me too, right?" jay asks. he slips his hands beneath your denim skirt, a timely choice of clothing for this situation.

you don't know whether to thank or curse the heavens for that particular choice you made.

"we can't—," you begin once more.

jay shuts you up with his mouth, kissing you with so much force it drives you back against the storage shelves. jay cages you between his arms, planting his hands on the wood behind you. he devours your lips as if they were his last meal on earth.

he reaches one hand down, pressing two fingers against your mound. jay groans against your lips when he feels the wetness in your underwear.

"see? you want me, too," jay says, pulling away. he bunches up your skirt around your waist.

"keep it up," jay commands and you oblige, gripping your skirt with shaky hands. you watch as jay unzips his pants, pulling them down along with his underwear, just enough to let his already hard cock spring free.

jay yanks your panties aside, tapping your legs, signaling you to open up. you part your thighs, reaching up to steady yourself on jay.

you yelp when jay pulls one of your legs around his hips, giving him a better angle to slide in. and he does, slipping in so easily between your folds and right into your waiting hole.

"j-jay," you gasp out as he fully sheathes himself within you.

"fuck, you feel amazing," jay compliments, wrapping an arm around your midsection. "already so wet for me."

he pulls you even closer and that's when he starts to move. jay's thrusts are intense, plunging into you fully before pulling back nearly all the way out, and then sinking right back in. your eyes roll back as jay picks up the pace.

"sshh, that's it," jay coos. "we gotta be quiet and we gotta be fast."

you let out a muted whimper, burying your face in jay's chest. soft thuds can be heard as he fucks you against the shelves, your back digging painfully against them, but you can't be bothered to care, not when jay's cock is splitting you open so well.

"still gonna say 'we can't'?" jay says through gritted teeth. you look up to see his forehead creased in concentration, his pupils blown wide. sweat drips down the side of his face.

"god, you look so good like that," jay whispers. "so helpless on my cock. this is what you wanted, right?"

you nod frantically, arms wrapping around jay's neck.

"yeah," you breathe out. "wanted your cock for so long."

jay grunts, throwing his head back. "yes, keep talking to me like that."

his movements quicken and it takes everything in you to fight against the urge to let your knees buckle underneath you.

"please jay," you whimper. "fuck me harder, fuck me the way you've always wanted to fuck me."

"shit," jay mutters.

you're briefly left breathless as you feel your other leg give out, neither of your feet planted on the floor. it takes you a second to realize that jay has scooped you up in his arms, holding you up completely as he continues to ram into you. you wrap your legs tighter around jay.

jay has full control now and all you can do is hang on for dear life.

"yes! jay, yes!" you cry out against his neck. jay pants directly in your ear, fucking you at a speed that's nearly unimaginable to you.

"i-i'm gonna cum," jay manages to get out.

"do it," you quickly answer. jay pulls back to look at you.

you hold his face in your hands, nodding. jay covers your mouth with his as he gives the last of his thrusts, stilling inside you after a while. he presses himself deep within you and you moan against his mouth, feeling him pulse and twitch against your walls.

you cling onto jay for a whole minute before he stumbles back, letting you down on your own two feet. he snaps your underwear back in place, kissing you passionately as he does.

"keep it there for the rest of the day," jay mumbles against your lips, smiling.

you laugh breathlessly, unsure whether it really is jay saying all these things.

you hear a faint buzzing sound and you jump, remembering that you had your phone in your skirt.

well, before jay nearly ripped it off you.

you spot your device on the ground, snatching it up to quickly answer the call.

"hello?"

"_______? have you seen jay?" sejin's voice cuts through the silence inside the closet. you meet jay's eyes and he, too, is perusing his phone.

"no," you lie right between your teeth. "i haven't. why?"

"he has a schedule in a bit and he's not answering any of my calls," sejin says. you're not quite sure if he's worried or irritated. probably both.

"i'll try calling him," you offer. jay grins wolfishly from your side, leaning in to press open-mouthed kisses on your neck.

"great," sejin says. "let me know if you reach him."

you hang up, pocketing your phone.

"you're hot when you're breaking the rules like that," jay says against the column of your throat.

it takes all your willpower to push him away.

"there won't be any rules to break if i get fired," you say matter-of-factly. you lean in to kiss jay square on the lips.

"so you better get your ass out of here before that happens."

[batbabydamian]

Hey, I started reading Robin son of Batman because of your recommendation (I literally have a print of your post on my phone to not forget lol). Honestly? One of the best things I ever read!!!

Thank you for opening my eyes! Damian has been one of my favorite characters for over a year, but I didn't read/watch much of him because of school, life (and probably an executive dysfunction in the mix).

Maya is incredible. I loved her.

I haven't finished all the issues yet, but do you have any other recommendations?

WAH this makes me so happy, i'm glad you still gave it a shot even with how busy life is!! ;v;

i’d love to give reccs, and i’ll try to go a beginner friendly route! tbh you can pick up whatever here, but since you've read R:SOB i’d immediately follow up with Batman and Robin (2011) #1-8! this first arc is what’s referred to in Maya’s introduction, and it's just. so good.

Main Books

Batman and Robin (2009)

Dick as Batman with Damian as his Robin!

#20-22 Tree of Blood: Dark Knight vs White Knight arc is done by Tomasi and Gleason, the team for the next Batman and Robin series

*Batman and Robin (2011)

Bruce and Damian figuring out their relationship as both Batman & Robin and father & son

imo you can enjoy the ride and read straight through this but i’ll add context to avoid as much confusion as possible since there’s the occasional tie-in or offscreen events, like Damian’s death nbd

Batman Incorporated (2012) #1-10

events leading to Damian's death - affects Batman and Robin (2011) from issue #18

kind of a tough read especially with how Talia's written, but a lot of iconic bits like Batcow, Damian's vegetarian declaration, Alfred the cat, "We Were the Best, Richard."

Robin (2021)

another self-discovery adventure, particularly after Alfred’s death and a fallout with Bruce (and questionable writing choices from his last Teen Titans run)

Batman and Robin (2023)

currently ongoing! after a number of events, Bruce and Damian are back as a duo

Damian Dynamics!

Batman: Streets of Gotham (2009) #7, 10-12

arc where Damian meets one of his first Gotham friends, Colin Wilkes

Batgirl (2009) #5-7, #17

Steph and Damian dynamic! "the bad cop, worse cop" dysfunctional duo

Red Robin (2009) #13-14

early Tim and Damian dynamic that of course includes fighting haha. funny enough, accidentally my first intro to Damian LOL

Teen Titans (2003) #89-92

Dick!Batman has Damian join the Teen Titans. Start of Damian and Rose Wilson dynamic that’s extended in Robin (2021)

Batman: Gates of Gotham (2011)

Damian meets Cass and has a brief team up

Gotham Academy (2015) #7

Damian meets Maps Mizoguchi! they have a few other meetings, but outside of that the series itself is a great read!

Robin War Event (2015)

Robin War (2015) #1, Grayson (2014) #15, Detective Comics (2011) #47, We Are Robin (2015) #7, Robin: Son of Batman (2015) #7, Robin War (2015) #2

Duke and Damian dynamic! not exactly beginner friendly but these are the main issues in order for the event! you can also read the TPB version for everything including Tie-Ins

Nightwing (2016) #16-20, #42, #43

#16-20 Nightwing and Robin arc!

#42 Dick on a mission to save Damian! the one appearance of "Wiggles" the dragon

#43 Dick, Roy, and Damian team-up

New Talent Showcase 2018 "Catwoman: Pedigree"

Selina, Damian, and Alfred the cat

Batman: Prelude to the Wedding - Robin vs. Ra's Al Ghul (2018)

Selina, Damian, and Cheese Viking - Damian's fav game shown in Nightwing: Rebirth (2016)

Monkey Prince (2022) #1-4

Marcus Sun Shugel-Shen's main comic, but Damian features as a fun dynamic here before they're in more serious circumstances in Batman VS Robin (2022)/Lazarus Planet event

Superman (2016) #10 - 11

the beginning of the Super Sons! featuring Maya!

Super Sons (2017)

solitary arcs but there’s a few event tie-in issues later

Adventures of the Super Sons (2018)

literally more Super Sons adventures lol galactic shenanigans yeehaw

Challenge of the Super Sons (2020) 

Super Sons time shenanigans feat. the Justice League

Robin 80th Anniversary (2020)

"Boy Wonders" - brief Damian feature as Tim considers his next step in life

"My Best Friend" - Jon's thoughts on Damian and their dynamic

"Bat and Mouse" - refers to Damian's unfortunate Teen Titans (2016) run at the time of release which follows up with Teen Titans Annual #2 where Damian briefly gives up Robin

Extra Comics!

Superman/Batman (2003) #77

Kara and Damian in a Halloween team-up! also the appearance of "Li'l Matches" lol

DCU Halloween Special '09 "Cavity Search"

Damian out on a solo mission for Halloween night. Immediately after is Tim's Red Robin story "Then and Now: Our Father's Sins" which is more somber in contrast but also a good read!

DCU Halloween Special 2010 "Robin the Vampire Slayer"

a Dick!Batman and Robin story featuring the vampire Andrew Bennett

Cursed Comics Cavalcade (2018) "The Devil You Know"

Halloween themed comic with a sweet short story of Damian alongside Solomon Grundy

DC's Terrors Through Time (2022)

"Trick or Treat" a Super Sons Halloween story

"The Haunting of Wayne Manor" Damian and Deadman story - in the end, Boston kinda refers to Nezha's possession of Damian in Batman VS Robin (2022) which was happening at the time of this release

Batman: Li'l Gotham (2013)

lighthearted series that instantly makes me smile with the silliness and Dustin Nguyen’s art i love this dearly

Secret Origins (2014) #4 "A Boy's Life"

a retelling of Damian's origin story

Detective Comics (2016) #1001-1005

Batman and Robin vs the Arkham Knight (unrelated to the game)

Truth & Justice (2021) #6/#16 - 18 Digital First version

cute story of Damian’s birthday! Juni Ba’s art is so fun!!

DC Festival of Heroes: The Asian Superhero Celebration (2021) “Special Delivery”

short story about Damian! and poisoned pizzas. completely forgot the artist Sami Basri drew Rebirth Damian here before catboy Damian lol Cass’s story “Sounds” is also cute! Marcus makes his first appearance in "The Monkey Prince Hates Superheroes"

DC VS Vampires (2021)

Damian makes appearances throughout this elseworlds book, but the one-shot DC VS Vampires: Hunters (2022) is vampire Damian-centric!

Batman: Black and White (2021) #5

“Father & Son Outing” short story written and drawn by Jorge Jimenez!

Batman: Urban Legends (2021) #20-23

#20 “My Son” Talia and Bruce focus

#20 - 23 “The Murder Club” 4 Parts

Tiny Titans (2008) #33, #39, #45, #47

a few appearances but SO CUTE, LOOK AT HIM

*Batman and Robin (2011) reading guide

i'm mostly trying to avoid the "what did i just walk in on?" kinda feeling when i first started reading comics LOL i'll list the comics where events take place, but you don't necessarily have to read them to go through this book since things are usually explained as quickly as possible in the first page or so

#0 Someday Never Comes

Talia and baby Damian before he grows up to meet Bruce

#1-8 Born to Kill

just an incredibly solid arc for Bruce and Damian!

#9 Court of Owls Tie-In Issue

Damian VS a Court of Owls Talon. While Bruce is occupied with a home invasion of Talons, Alfred makes a call for allies to protect targeted Gotham public figures from Talons. During Batman (2011) #1-11

#10-12 Terminus

Damian challenges the previous Robins sans Steph

Batman Incorporated (2012) is occurring at this time where Talia has placed a bounty on Damian and there's small mentions of that

#13-14 Eclipsed/Devoured

mostly solitary arc! end of it leads into the Death of the Family event

#15-16 Death of the Family Tie-In Issues

Damian and Joker face-off... Alfred's been kidnapped by the Joker, and Damian goes looking for him. During Batman (2011) #13-17

#17 Life is but a Dream - Death of the Family Epilogue

a sort of subconscious check-in through the dreams of Damian, Alfred, and Bruce. Nightwing (2011) #17 features Damian encouraging Dick after Death of the Family events

#18 Undone "Requiem"

Bruce dealing with Damian's death from Batman Incorporated #8

other reactions to Damian's death: Dick in Nightwing (2011) #18, Tim in Teen Titans (2011) #18

#19-23 Denial, Rage, The Bargain, Despair, Acceptance

Bruce through the stages of grief with some batfam appearances in each. also introduces Carrie Kelley into continuity as Damian's acting tutor.

Batman (2011) #19-20 also addresses Bruce's loss

#23.1-23.4

these could be skipped - villain stories, also related to Forever Evil event.

#24-28 The Big Burn

optional Batman and Two-Face/Harvey Dent arc, #23.1 is part of this story!

Damian's resurrection and return

#29-32 The Hunt for Robin

Ras took Talia and Damian's bodies from their graves, and Bruce goes after him.

-> Robin Rises: Omega

continues events from #32. if you don't want to jump to this, basically, Glorious Godfrey and a bunch of parademons from Apokolips are here for a chaos shard which Ra's put in Damian's sarcophagus. at some point, Bruce gets a hold of the shard where he sees a vision that leads him to believe Damian can be resurrected. Godfrey ends up taking the shard, along with Damian's body since it was emitting the same energy.

#33-37 Robin Rises

Bruce hellbent on retrieving Damian from Apokolips and reviving him

-> Robin Rises: Alpha

necessary to read and continues events from #37! Damian's back with a bang lol

#38-40 Superpower

Damian adjusting to having superpowers and being alive again

Annual #1 2013 Batman Impossible

sweet (and funny) one-shot of Damian sending Bruce on a meaningful scavenger hunt around the world while Damian gets to be the cutest Batman for a bit

Annual #2 2014 Batman and Robin: Week One

one-shot takes place during Damian's absence. after Bruce and Alfred find a mystery gift left for Dick, Dick recounts a story he had told Damian from his Robin days.

Annual #3 2015 Moonshot

one-shot Batman and Robin adventure on the moon!

...and of course after Batman and Robin (2011), Damian's story continues in his first solo Robin: Son of Batman (2015)!