#if not actually marika herself

[nemesis-is-my-middle-name]

i was going to crack a joke about how the only thing on my lore wishlist for the dlc was that they would finally explain why the hell marika got impaled and crucified on the elden ring. and then it occurred to me that our one canon named boss so far is an archetypical erdtree traitor-styled demigod quite literally titled the impaler

[funeralprocessor]

God I wish my brain didn't shut down the moment I try to actually write down anything about my OCs/ideas/etc. I've got some freaks knocking around in here y'all would go wild for.

[val-of-the-north]

My friend @katyspersonal made an interesting observation about the flowers that were once found on the path to Midra's Mense. Here's her post on the matter for reference [x].

The flower connection seems way too meaningful to be accidental, especially since the two people in charge of the Mense are not Hornsent at all...

Now, we can't know for sure whether Midra, Nanaya, or both were Shamans or at least related, but the connection IS there, which I doubt was placed randomly.

But yeah, speaking of Hornsent, they were indeed punished for associating with Midra. As my friend pointed out in an earlier post [x], this dialogue wouldn't fit if it was simply due to the Flame of Frenzy business going on there, especially since the ghost that welcomes us is very well aware of the madness.

It's also worth pointing out that the Madding Hand's face resembles that of the other Hornsent who use player models, meaning his fellows are probably other Hornsent too.

Whoever this group of Hornsent was, it's clear they did not care about his lack of horns and simply served Midra, possibly due to him being wise and knowledgeable...

Either that, or there are ways for people without horns to get privileges and benefits even in Hornsent society. Maybe it is still due to his vast array of knowledge, but it wouldn't be too outlandish to think Midra found ways to be productive to the Hornsent and was thus rewarded for his efforts. Until they grew suspicious of him, of course. But his Hornsent attendants seem rather loyal to him despite that.

Which leads me to a different point regarding Marika herself...

The two Hornsent NPCs that we can actually interact with both mention some sort of betrayal from Marika.

To be betrayed means that there was some semblance of trust between them and her that she broke, which would seem odd at first glance, but we must take into consideration what she did to attain godhood. She had to have reached the Gates of Divinity (as shown in the cinematic trailer), which are found in the holiest, most guarded part of Belurat's tower: Enir-Ilim.

And this must have happened BEFORE the Crusade and Messmer, as evidenced by a few things:

1) The Hornsent mention the Erdtree a bunch, which we know was established after a few different conflicts. At the very least, the war against the Giants must have happened before the Crusade, as the Age of the Erdtree began then.

Marika was also already considered a god at the time, she had a consort in Godfrey, and the Crucible was yet to be seen as heretical due to their employment of Crucible Knights. There's also the very likely possibility that Radagon was spawned from that conflict as a curse of the Giants inflicted upon Marika, which would work to explain where the red hair came from.

It might also tell us WHEN Messmer was born in that case, and speaking of...

2) Messmer's condition, or rather, all the things Marika had done for his sake, seem to have happened AFTER the establishment of the Erdtree, as they feature heavy gold and tree motifs. To have control of Grace so great that she could create the rune she most likely gave to Messmer strongly hints at her having already become a god.

The Blessing of Marika also fits the criteria of a thing she had to have made after her ascension to godhood because of its heavy arboreal theme and the fact that two Tree Sentinels (who defend her home village) are holding onto them as well, further hinting at the existence of the Erdtree by this point in time.

Both of these items relate to Messmer and both of their descriptions already identify Marika as a Queen. I wonder if this means Marika returned to her home one last time after she became a god as opposed to when she started her journey toward divinity. Her last acknowledgment of her past before leaving it behind forever.

3) Messmer was also friends with Gaius, who studied with Radahn, and they were both like older brothers to him.

This means the Crusade and Messmer's banishment could not have happened earlier than many years AFTER the Liurnian wars, as evidenced by the presence of the Carian kids. This point is also strengthened by Rellana being close to Messmer and having to prove her loyalty to the Erdtree in ritual combat.

This means that Marika reaching the Gates of Divinity and the Crusade happened at two different points in time, which seems to align with how the Hornsent word things. She betrayed them, then set them ablaze.

What's left to wonder is HOW it happened. I think it was either:

A) She waged a first war against them with the aid of Hoarax Loux (not Godfrey yet, as there was no reason to conduct himself as a lord), his clan, and the Crucible Knights to consolidate her godhood. Maliketh could have also been involved. The Hornsent, then, simply see being supplanted as a betrayal regardless of whether they knew about Marika or not, or...

B) She found a sneakier way to get there through careful planning and climbing the social ladder of Hornsent society, maybe with contact and guidance from the Two Fingers. If the latter is true, I assume she still had Maliketh's support and Hoarax Loux on speed dial for whenever the chance to claim divinity arrived, as she would still need a consort for that and we know he was her first husband.

Both ideas are compelling to me and make sense in their own right. Still, the thought that she could have actually infiltrated their society and made them trust her just to usurp and double-cross them feels very fascinating, especially since the Hornsent specifically mention Marika betraying them. It makes me wonder what Tower society is really like to non-horned people since some Hornsent can even become very loyal to those with an explicit lack of horns.

Marika's betrayal could also explain why the Inquisition would later turn on Midra despite him seemingly having enjoyed some levity or respect in the past. Perhaps they believed he'd pull a similar stunt to Marika's (or maybe they acted that way because he was directly related to her? idk honestly)... though their preventive actions inadvertently caused even more problems by having the resulting despair attract the Three Fingers to what would become the Abyssal Woods.

Of course, it's unclear if the Mense's downfall happened before, after, or concurrently with Marika's path to divinity, but I think it's worth considering as an option at least!

[indexvirus]

So, what do we think about this?

It's actually strange how, the more I read into SotE, the more I feel Miquella is not intentionally evil.

It's ironic. Before the DLC, my headcanon pretty much was him having Griffith-esque themes, wanting to make his own Falconia.

And now when the DLC has come out with all it implies, I feel I'm wrong. I feel increasingly there is a "tragic misunderstanding of one's own self and limits" leading to "end justifies the means" to "road to hell is paved with good intentions" here.

SotE doesn't undo Miquella's kindness.

He very much is still the character who grew frustrated with the uselessness of the Golden Order when it offered no deliverance for his suffering sister (Radagon's Ring of Light),

who fed his own blood to a sapling in hopes it would grow into a new Erdtree and provide a haven for the outcast (Haligtree Knight Armour, Old Albus Dialogue, Royal Knight Helm),

who developed unalloyed gold to ward off effects of outer gods such as the frenzied flame (Unalloyed Gold Needle, Note: Miquella's Needle),

and who wished to free Godwyn of his suffering (Golden Epitaph).

Miquella observes, learns and improves upon. What did he learn to make the decisions he did? To take the same path his mother took, inspired by the suffering inflicted on those dear to them, believing firmly the sacrifices would "fix the world".

Both made a promise/vow/prayer we never hear fully (Final Cutscene, Golden Braid).

The suffering of the Tarnished, of Godfrey, of the Misbegotten and the Omen for peace and order. The suffering of the Haligtree, of Malenia, of Radahn and Mohg, for equality and compassion.

Marika separated Radagon from herself, but love was what broke her, so Miquella separated St. Trina from himself and divested himself of his love.

But unlike Marika, who realized the mistakes she'd made and chose to defy the Greater Will, and Radagon who stayed delusionally loyal, it was Miquella who was delusional, and St. Trina who realized what a terrible mistake was in the making and what terrible mistakes had already been made...

St. Trina is Miquella. This is him asking "Make me stop, don't let me become a god, you must kill me, grant me forgiveness". At some point he realized what he'd done and only death would grant him forgiveness for it...

For what kind of a god would he become when he'd abandoned all he'd promised to save.

[katyahina]

The 'haired' helmets are strange..

It IS odd how we get to wear the characters' hairstyles, as it is just really unlikely they're scalps! I suppose the explanation is the same as why we are able to completely change upon looking into a mirror at Roundtable's Hold; as long as the Tarnished is guided by Greater Will, they'll have its aid and be transformed into whatever they see fit to keep carrying on! So I think the implication here is that we do, physically, grow the hair of the demigods (or champions) upon trying to tap on their power! I think if GW abandons a Tarnished, or if they abandon it, they lose this 'ability', which our playable character never does, so..

I am not sure whether it is Maliketh's own long mane or also a decoration! I'd like to think the former, in which case, same logic as with hair of Malenia, Godfrey and Radahn applies! Vargram's "hair" definitely is a decoration, and specifically for the purpose of imitating shadowbeasts:

Ensha's armour goes even further and not only gives us a hairdo, but makes us a skeleton:

We even get his power of slight regeneration, similar to Erdtree's normal powers:

All implications considered, I really doubt that this is just how armour looks, especially considering no change in size. We are not 'wearing' the skull, we ARE the skull now fhhsfd And this time the NPC data inside simply exists because Ensha does use NPC code and mechanics. So, we turn into a corpse! Again, should not matter much since as long as we're carried by GW we don't need to eat or sleep or... anything, really. (I'll also die on the hill of the theory that Ensha was one of the deceased Marika's offspring whose Mausoleum crashed and what was left from him crawled out but that's another story fdhfhds)

Here are other instances of hair simply decorating a helm:

Niall is that one guy we fight in Castle Sol, so similarity in this case ALSO checks out! Also cute idea: what if decoration for the helmets of Godrick's Knights IS his own hair? ;-;

That could also be speculated about Redmane Knights, but I feel like it'd be more appropriate for Godrick's. Radahn would be stingy about his amazing lion mane whereas Godrick can not only take body parts but also give them XDDDD yeah yeah terrible whatever

The black hair on Night Cavalry's helmet can be removed, also confirming that in this case it is a decoration. This hair does have interesting flowing animation though! Maybe it IS the hair of Night Cavalry themselves, still having their shadowy energy, but cut and attached again to their own helmets (kind of like Ciaran from DS1 decorated her helmet with her own braid!)

Another case of hair not being actual hair but part of the mask; the way hair is placed, it'd had to grow from like, eyebrows level and face itself or something fdhfdsdfh Maybe this style with braids and grey hair was intended to refer at Godfrey's? Alternatively, what IF their faces are actually furry/animalistic despite otherwise human build, so the hair doubles as fur? We don't see them behind the mask, after all? A food for a thought lol

^ More of 100% 'mask' types of these

The water dancer in blue gave the sword to Malenia's teacher, the blind guy that once sealed the God of Rot himself, and these warriors in blue appear to be following the same philosophy of "ever running water preventing stagnation, so, rot itself" as him! Although this head piece imitates just a follower and not the man himself (as far as we are aware....), perhaps the sentiment is strong enough to give us the hairdo too x) Again, funny enough, it seems to resemble the Lady of the Lake fairy herself!

I suspected the case of 'sharing hair' with Cleanrot Knights too, but upon closer look I can tell it is supposed to be some fabric/rags, rather than hair or hairlike accessory! Probably more efficient to imitate the look with rags rather than something hairlike tbh, considering the lenght of the thing! So I think the design is more meant to represent Malenia's own unhappy fate, with short tuft being the "hair" and the longer tails being the "wings" :

_______________

In conclusion, it is kind of easy to deduce which hair become our actual hair for the time being because of golden grace 'reshaping' us and which hair is just decor! But it is really interesting stuff to think about all the way!

[cosmichorrorsarestillnicerthanme]

I know your probably not going to see this since you have so many asks but I’m going to try anyway

Could you do relationship headcanons with the Elden ring girls?

(Whatever ones is up to you since I want to see which ones you will pick)

Oh ye of little Faith Anon!

Also, I decided to go the angst route for Marika and Melina so fair warning for that.

Now, since you gave me free rein to choose… My Wish Is My Command!

Malenia was not much of a talker.

She liked her alone time.

That said, she did like listening to others talk on occasion.

She especially liked listening to people talking about normal, everyday life.

It was a guilty pleasure of hers.

To hear about the simple things.

Hugging those they care for close.

Kissing the ones they love.

All the things she rarely ever felt.

But then, one day, she met you.

It was a complete accident, something that, if she had stepped on a different piece of the cobble path, never would’ve happened.

While she was walking the path, her head in the clouds, she caught her still flesh and bone foot on a broken piece of stone.

She, of course, was able to return herself to being upright near instantly.

Though… not without accidentally smacking you in the nose with her prosthetic.

Her unalloyed golden metal prosthetic.

Needless to say, you were bleeding.

Badly.

And Malenia, for all her grace and strength on the battlefield, was absolutely horrible when it came to people.

So, Malenia being the expert in Diplomacy she is, grabbed you by the back of your collar, and dragged you off without a word, nose still absolutely pouring blood.

And that is how you got here.

Sitting on a chair in THE Malenia’s room, pieces of cotton stuck up your nose as the red headed woman paced the room, not saying a single word.

This was an absolutely surreal experience.

An actual Demi-God, someone who could cut down an army with ease, had just accidentally wacked you in the face, dragged you into her room, and was pacing the floor like she had just committed some grand, unforgivable crime.

It was just a bloody nose, not even broken.

She looked like she was about to collapse from stress.

You were pretty sure she was about to wear a hole into the ground with how fast she was pacing.

“U-uh Lady Malenia?” you tentatively asked.

The red head went rigid and turned to you in a manner more akin to an automaton from the Academy Of Raya Lucaria than a humanoid creature.

“I am Malenia, Blade Of Miquella.” Malenia declared without room for response or retort, leaving the room in complete and utter silence as you looked directly into the helm she wore.

It was now that a knock on the door rang through the room, and a wave of relief ran through both parties.

“Malenia! I heard you dragged someone into your room! Did you get a Consort and not tell your favorite sibling!?” a joyous and booming voice cried through the door.

“Consort? Me?” you muttered in confusion.

“Miquella is my favorite sibling.” Malenia stated bluntly, seemingly causing a physical impact to the person on the other side.

“Then your biggest Sibling!” the voice declared joyously.

“Radahn is my biggest sibling.” Malenia stated in the same tone of voice, causing direct harm to the speaker.

“I am going to smite you with lightning.” the voice declared in an oddly happy voice despite the very real threat.

“You can try, Godwyn. I will simply cut the lightning.” Malenia declared.

The door was promptly thrown open and the giant blonde man in the doorway shouted.

“YOU CAN’T CUT LIGHTNING!!!”

“Has anyone tried it before?” Malenia asked.

“No-” Godwyn began before getting cut off.

“Then I shall be the first, and I shall succeed.” Maleina declared in her eternally even tone of voice.

Godwyn moved to advise against this ill fated endeavor but then, he noticed the guest in the room.

He looked at you for a few moments, perplexed, before walking over to Malenia and dragging her out of the room by her ear.

A few moments later, a young Blonde poked his head into the room.

“Excuse me, but have you seen my sister Malenia?” the blonde asked.

“Uhm… you just missed her. Lord Godwyn dragged her off somewhere.” you responded.

“Hmm… I see. Thank you.” the blonde muttered before walking off.

Then, you heard the stomping of running feet and the blonde shot into the room, shouting.

“WHO IN THE ERDTREE ARE YOU!?”

This was how you met the children of Queen Marika The Eternal.

The Demi-Gods that are feared and respected by all.

Malenia, The Blade Of Miquella, a woman of impossible strength, grace, and to you, beauty. She was also pathetically inept when it came to social interaction.

Godwyn The Golden, a man of immense power and lauded as one of the greatest diplomats in history. He had a habit of saying terrifying things with a happy voice and a smile.

Miquella The Unalloyed, a being of unparalleled intelligence and magical power. He tended to have his head stuck in the clouds.

It was such an odd thing to see.

Especially considering your new job that you received as an apology for Maleina accidentally striking you.

You were now the official “Cultural Examiner”.

Also known as, the person who Malenia pays to hear talk about the day to day life of those who lived normal lives.

If there is one thing Marika needs in her life, it is a singular fixed point, an unmoving and unbreaking rock in a rough sea.

That was all she asked you to be, and the only thing she would ever request of you.

To be someone to lean on when she needed it.

She wasn’t supposed to catch feelings for you.

She wasn’t supposed to spend her nights thinking about you.

She wasn’t supposed to start to see you as more than an advisor.

But, she did.

And for years, she suffered for it.

She said she would only ever ask one thing of you, and that is an oath she intended to keep.

No matter how much she wished to ask you what you thought of her as only you had ever truly seen.

A person.

No matter how much she wished to ask you who if anyone you liked.

She occasionally caught herself thinking of you telling her that she was the one you liked.

She wanted to ask you if she was a fool for acting like a young love sick maiden in her private moments.

She knew she was.

But… she still liked to have her dreams.

Even if the nightmares were far more numerous.

Still, even if you felt the same feelings for her… could she even reciprocate them?

The blood on her hands… Her chains to the Golden Order… Her own innumerable sins… she couldn’t force that on you.

And yet… the want to simply sit with you and mumble and grumble about whatever minor inconveniences came to mind overpowered her again and again and again.

She knew she needed to stop on the off chance you reciprocate her feelings since she knew she wouldn’t be able to stop herself from saying yes.

But she couldn’t.

And that was the only thing related to you she didn’t know how to feel about.

Melina The Kindling Maiden

Melina was born to burn.

She knew that from the moment she could comprehend the world.

Her existence was to find a Tarnished without a maiden, serve that role, and then when they reached the mountaintops, use herself as the match to burn the Erdtree.

Not once had this ever bothered her.

But now, as she stood on the edge of the forge with you, her Tarnished, on the ground behind her…

She wished she had a little bit more time with you.

To watch the person who charmed her with their strange antics and many eccentricities.

To eat Prawn with you and Boggart.

To sit by a grace and wait out the rain.

To spend the night under the stars.

To simply spend the day as the two of you always did.

But… Now that was but a sweet dream.

There was only one thing to do before she burned.

She knew better than to turn and face you.

But, that did nothing to stop the tears pricking at her eyes.

“Torrent, please, I beg of thee. Watch over My Tarnished as best you can.”

“Beloved Ranni, you know all someone would have to do to ruin that oh so perfect persona you have cultivated is to knock your books out from under you.” You told the witch with a cheshire grin.

“I have no idea what you mean, I have no mask to wea- FATHERS BALLSACK!!!” Ranni squealed as a single book was removed from the stack, sending her tumbling right into your arms.

“There she is! Ranni, the one whose mouth your mother had to wash out with soap more than anyone can ever hope to count.” you told the doll-like woman with a teasing grin as you twirled around with her.

“Wh- You son of a-” Ranni began to say, preparing to go on a tirade before stopping.

That was exactly what you wanted out of her.

For her to prove your point.

Instead-

“Ack! Cold! Cold!” you began to cry as Ranni wrapped her arms around you.

Ranni was never the type to be above pettily pranking someone.

Especially not you.

After all, if you were to be her Consort you had to know what you were getting into.

[tlgtw]

Bits and pieces of the still incredibly written backstory of Elden Ring continue to poke out from the dogwater, as it were.

St. Trina, as we learn, was a specific aspect of Miquella that was made separate: In Miquella's words, St Trina was the embodiment of his 'love.' And when he abandoned St Trina, he abandoned that aspect of himself that made her.

This newly introduced example reveals to us what the nature of Radagon's exactly was, in turn.

Radagon, the 'other half' of Marika in the exact same way that St Trina had been for Miquella, we learn here, had *himself* been a specific singular aspect of Marika's emotions or feelings.

With St Trina having been made out of Miquella's 'love.'

You wonder, too, what Radagon should have been made from.

What aspect of herself did Marika separate into her second person, as called by her the "Loyal Dog of the Golden Order"? We know Radagon was created prior to the creation of the Golden Order itself, since he was involved in the invasion of Liurnia.

So at the same time as Marika was married to Godfrey, begetting Godwyn and Mogh and Morgott. Radagon was married to Renalla, begetting Rykard and Radahn and raising the potential successor of Marika--the Empyrean Ranni. He was given a massive amount of responsibility, the seeming crux of the Liurnian-Leyndell alliance that ended the Liurnian Wars that Marika's empire was losing, and he by every account was completely dedicated and successful; even weakening the strength of the Carian royal family by reducing their practicing of astrology.

All yet, when push came to shove: After Godwyn was assassinated and Marika sought to destroy the Elden Ring. It was Radagon who dropped everything he had and stepped in to stop her.

"Proudly" as his Golden Order Greatsword says,

Radagon divorced his first wife, married his 'original self,' begettedthe Twin Prodigies Miquella and Malenia as two more potential successors to Queen Marika, set up the brutal inquisition and censorship of the Age of Radagon headed by his own son Rykard, and was even involved with the very the development of Golden Order fundamentalism!

Radagon did so much fucking stuff! He was so damn proactive! So what exactly must he have been!?

That Marika initially separated from herself? And who went on to try and stop her very own plans when they turned against the wishes of the Greater Will??

This conflicting 'half' of her original person! That nonetheless was all this strongly willed on his own!?

What part of Marika COULD Radagon have originally been!?!?!?

And it's awesome. It's really really well-designed writing.

Frankly, even, it's genius. It's not anything revolutionary in terms of narrative devices or anything like that, but it's really elegant. It's really meaningful and concise, and it's really cool!!!

A lot of Elden Ring's base game is, or now maybe--was. (It having been the basis of my entire show on YouTube.)

But the actual story, instead of solely the backstory, of the DLC, unfortunately, is not!

You ever seen a boss item whose entire description was literally entirely the game just fucking QUOTING ITSELF?

Hyetta at Frenzied Flame Proscription: "Become their lord. Take their torment, despair. Their affliction. Every sin, every curse. And melt it all away. As the Lord of Chaos."

Ghost outside Church of Inhibition in Liurnia: "Ahh, Lord Vyke, it seems that you were no lord, after all."

Midras's Flame of Frenzy, from killing Midras, Lord of Frenzied Flame:

Or! Better yet, ANOTHER boss spell, whose entire description is dedicated to literally just acknowledging its fucking colour!!

Land of Shadows, from killing the Scadutree Avatar:

I definitely sure wish I still hadn't!!

In fact, I don't think the level of vacuousness from Shadow of the Erdtree's descriptions has ever been seen before!

Not even in Dark Souls 3!!

AUGH

[thewisecheerio]

Elden Ring, Systemic Oppression, and Scapegoating

The most chilling lore associated with Messmer is this line from his armor set:

On his mother's wishes, Messmer made himself a symbol of fear, undertaking the cleansing crusade she desired. "Direct thy maledictions, thine ire, and thy grief towards me alone."

Yes, it's driven by compassion. Yes, he's doing it out of a desire for his mother to be able to "correct" the things she suffered. Yes, yes, very sweet, we all love the snake man and the way he wields his compassion to do vast evil.

But you know what else this does? By directing all ire toward Messmer, he makes himself the scapegoat for the system, allowing the flogging to continue endlessly. He is distracting from the real problem, on purpose, so that no one targets the real problem. Messmer is singlehandedly the most potent weapon in Marika's arsenal for enforcing her oppressive vision on the world and maintaining its power.

When you're suffering under a bad system and have no easy scapegoat for that suffering, you understand that the system itself is the source. You understand that you must remake the system from the ground up for anything to change. But when you DO have that easy scapegoat, what happens?

"If only we got rid of Current Leader, everything would be better."

"If only we got rid of Single Bad Law, everything would be better."

"If only I made better individual choices, everything would be better."

The reality is that none of these actions can undermine the power of a system that is rotten to the core:

A single bad leader will be replaced with another bad leader--as we see with Marika's children trying to replace her rule without fundamentally changing how the system functions.

A single bad law cannot deconstruct all the harm to targets of other laws--as we see with Fia's or Dung's ending that only prioritize a single oppressed group without regard for any other.

And individual choices? No matter how many good individual choices you make to help NPC you meet along the way in Elden Ring, the Golden Order itself will continue to oppress the Hornsent, the Misbegotten, any remaining piece of Fire Giant culture, and so on. You cannot help these groups with individual actions, because individual actions rarely solve a collective problem.

No, the only way to stop the Golden Order from harming people is to destroy and replace the system entirely. Ymir even tells us so:

I fear that you have borne witness to the whole of it. The Conceits - the hypocrisy - of the world built upon the Erdtree. The follies of men. Their bitter suffering. Is there no hope for redemption? The answer, sadly, is clear. There never was any hope. They were each of them defective. Unhinged, from the start. Marika herself. And the fingers that guided her. And this is what troubles me. No matter our efforts if the roots are rotten, then we have little recourse.

By giving Queen Marika (and by extension, the Greater Will) a scapegoat for all the evil of the Golden Order and its systemic oppression of its outgroups, Messmer has actually handed her the key to solidifying her rule. By distracting from the rotten system itself and laying all blame at his own feet, Messmer has ensured that the systemic oppression of the Golden Order would remain unaddressed—even unnoticed by its followers—far longer than it ever should have been allowed.

[blasphemousclaw]

...So, thoughts on Marika's lore in SOTE?

I really loved how Marika was fleshed out in the DLC… I’ve always loved when characters have sympathetic motivations, but end up taking things way too far and unleashing their hurt upon the world with dire consequences.

Count Ymir describes Marika and the Two Fingers that guided her as both “defective” and “unhinged from the start,” and says Marika’s bloodline was “tainted,” and “mired in madness.” He blames the “conceits—the hypocrisy—of the world built upon the Erdtree” on Marika’s ascension being fundamentally “unhinged.” I think what he means by this is that Marika ascended to godhood for the purpose of violence — nothing good can come of a deeply hurt and traumatized person taking up the reality-altering power of a god and using it for her own, flawed ends. It’s really interesting to me that Ymir describes Metyr, Mother of Fingers as herself “damaged and unhinged,” and her children, the Two Fingers, as “victims in their own right.” Metyr was long abandoned by the Greater Will… it’s almost like this trauma was passed down from Metyr, to the Two Fingers, who then may have even sympathized with Marika’s own trauma, and chose her as their empyrean… giving her the power to violently lash out at the world with a god’s strength. Then Marika passes this trauma down in turn to her own demigod children in various ways, and we all know how that turned out… it’s like a huge, vicious cycle of trauma passed down through generations.

Ymir comes to the conclusion that the Mother must simply be replaced with someone who will not “give birth to further malady.” However, I would go further than that — I don’t think you can ever have a mortal, who will inevitably have human flaws, ascend to godhood. There is no such thing as a perfect person who will wield godhood with perfect grace (Miquella is proof enough of that). Perhaps no one should claim the power of the gods for themselves? I think this is the theme that the whole game is trying to argue: Goldmask comes to the conclusion that the Golden Order’s “fly in the ointment” is “the fickleness of gods no better than men.” I think this is actually why all the game’s endings are not focused on the gods or demigods, but nearly every one is spearheaded by the Tarnished — with his dying breath, Ansbach pleads, “Righteous Tarnished. Become our new lord. A lord not for gods, but for men.” Yes, Ranni’s ending fits this theme too! She fundamentally makes a change in this cycle, because she abandons the Lands Between with her order… no more god-queens ruling and waging war on earth… no more Marikas.

Anyway I love so much how the DLC expanded Marika’s story and how it perfectly elaborates on all these themes introduced in the base game!!

[wordslikesilver]

Okay but why mohg and Radahn I hear you all asking, I get it, that seems odd to me too until I realized, they are the ONLY demigods that don’t reject and remove a single part of themselves. The only ones that are “whole”. Rykard becomes snake man. Ranni rids herself of her body. Godwyn loses his soul. Malenia gives up her memories to the scarlet rot. Morgott not only shaves his horns but he also purges himself of his entire curse at the end of the fight. Let’s go beyond siblings. Godfrey gives up his savagery. What HASNT Marika given up. Rennala has lost her faculties to heart break and more. Godrick grafts. Messmer has a bajillion seals on his body. Melina’s body has been burned away at some point leaving her just a spirit.

There is a huge significance to the fact that Miquella has taken the only two demigods who gave up nothing… and forced them to lose a part of themselves. Mohg lost his soul and Radahn lost his body (and his horse 😭). It’s fascinating how they both gave up nothing. Mohg let his horns take his eye out and just left the golden order without any real retaliation (yet, his dynasty was still growing ofc, there’s something to be said for growing one’s forces after all). He really seemed to just accept a lot happening to and around him and then firming it. He’s got shit to do. A cult to run. Blood to, idk, bathe in or whatever. The bloodflame is fascinating though. More on that in a moment. Radahn embraces his heritage just as much as Mohg embraces his own. He embraces the red hair AND he embraces the lion. He doesn’t even give up Leonard! That’s actually story significant symbolism! And the symbolism I think is that Miquella wanted demigods who would not reject. If they didn’t reject any part of themselves, then they would truly embody compassion.

What got me thinking about this was Morgott actually and I was sitting here wondering, what is the significance of him vomiting during the bossfight? Like what was the decision there from a director perspective, why isn’t he just doing a big explosion of Omen Bairns or something and then it occurred to me that this is WHY he’s completely purged of his curse at the end of the fight. Morgott is blessed in his final moments after giving his entire life to the Erdtree by having his curse that stains the very throne he sits on purged from his body and he doesn’t even realize it. “Thy part in such shame shall not be forgiven!” And there is so much omen curse in his body, you don’t understand. He has more omen blood on his hands than anyone else alive. He has to vomit GEYSERS of it out. We are the agent of his mother and we push him to the breaking point where at last he can be purged of this critical mass of omen curse. Morgott’s story is defined by FEELING alone, but in truth, he is loved by the crucible of life, by the Erdtree, by his father, even by his mother, misguided as she was. His final words ache so much in my chest. “We are all forsaken” and “Thy deeds shall be met with failure just as I” NO MORGOTT YOU SUCCEEDED. THE ERDTREE EMBRACED YOU, YOURE FREE OF YOUR CURSE NOW. ITS OKAY, ITS ALL GONNA BE OKAY, YOU MADE IT.

I sit and wonder how many times he polished the thrones himself on hands and knees, worried that some of his curse may have fallen upon them. I wonder if he felt the curse leaving his body and felt disgust because he thought he deserved to suffer longer.

[feukt-42]

The most interesting part with Leda for me, is that for all of the murder she does, she doesnt seem to enjoy it in any way. When she fights Ansbach, the Hornsent, Thiollier or you, she always seems to express some form of regret at having to kill you. Of course, she doesnt actually have to kill anyone, she is just very quick to use murder as a solution, but it doesnt seem to stem from a desire to hurt others, it feels like she genuinely believes this is the only way forward.

She says she is mistrustful of others, and while that convo is kinda funny, it really does feel like she has lost all trust in mankind. In the dialogue about Hornsent's crusade, while most people remember the "they were never saints" part, I mostly remember "Man is by nature a creature of conquest". It really does speak to how she views people, and it seems like she believes Miquella's forced age of compassion is the only way to change things for the better, that without his control, everyone would just constantly be at each other's throats. It almost makes me wonder about the needle kights. Did she kill them for the same reason ? Were they actually disloyal to Miquella ? Was there already infighting before she came along ? Whatever the case, Leda is now utterly convinced of Miquella's cause, and is ready to do anything to bring him to power.

It's a very interesting dynamic with Miquella, who is always portrayed as a very hopeful figure, always trying to create a kind and compassionate world, while Leda is a very pessimistic one. She seems to almost embody his "through whatever means necessary" philosophy. Had Miquella succeeded, i could almost see her taking on a role similar to the one Messmer took for Marika, an enforcer, someone who does the dirty jobs so their god can keep their hands clean. Hell, she's almost started to do it by herself, Miquella wouldn't even need to ask her.

[drenched-in-sunlight]

very opionated talk underneath the cut

this is what I get for keeping checking out the fandom tag, but oh well 😭

seeing the reasoning behind the “Marika and Godfrey would have been proud of Godrick for the grafting” take is so wild to me like… are we just going to ignore the fact that Nepheli - who is implied to be Godfrey’s descendants, said Godrick’s deeds “taint the very wind” and helped us beat his ass and it’s her who later becomes the rightful Lord of Stormveil ?

+ Roderika, who is thematically a reflection of the girl Marika was pre-Godhood, losing all her companions and being left alone scared shitless and heartbroken in a shack, blaming herself for not being strong enough, brave enough to go die with her friends, all because Godrick is making a mockery of Godfrey’s name and enacting the same tragedy that befell Marika’s people ?

Like, I can sorta see why people refuse to see the Living Jars in the Lands Between as Marika reclaiming a practice that was tainted by the Hornsent deeds, returning it into something done to honor the dead and let them be returned to the Erdtree to continue the cycle of life - death - rebirth (is scattering ashes of the deceased to the sea not a thing in many irl cultures anymore or am I going crazy), cuz if one has certain…views on her, it can be hard to see anything she does in a positive light (actually even if you don’t see it that way, equating jar innards made of dead warriors in a ritual to honour them with living ppl being cut up and forced to meld together as a form of torture is… a choice), but to completely ignore Nepheli and Roderika’s stories and their role in the narrative? 💀

Plus, where in the game is it even stated or implied that Godfrey being a battlefield maniac means he is ok with *read writing on hands* some guy sending his lackeys out to hunt Tarnished (Godfrey’s own warriors) and making them into unwilling extra limbs?

The guy that gives his all to fight the player by himself and compliments us on a battle well fought… will see honour in gaining strength via kidnapping ppl and stealing their strength, instead of fighting your own battles, honing your own skills and getting stronger on your own? Huh?

And even ignoring all that, Kenneth - a mere nobleman, not even demigod or anything, fr called Godrick a “jumped up country bumpkin” who fleed from Leyndell, holed up in Stormveil to hide from Radahn (why are we forgetting this…bro can’t even pass the Godfrey’s no.1 Stan vibe check) and then got beaten up by Malenia?

To add insult to injury, Godwyn’s body lying beneath Stormveil will literally stab anyone coming close to him (which is sth I have an interesting conversation with ppl on twitter about. there’s one person bringing up an interesting interpretation that Godrick probably took off with a relic of Godwyn’s body hoping to graft a piece of the Golden Prince onto himself, but Godwyn body was like “no” and infested the castle ground like a disapproving ghost 😭 but Godwyn is cool with us because he knows we have Marika’s sanction 😊).

Godrick… has no support whatsoever from Marika and Godfrey’s direct descendants, other than maybeeee Morgot who probably was only there to keep an eye on Stormveil - a place of importance to his dad and maybeeee a bit family pity for Godrick, definitely not because he’s proud of the stuffs Godrick is doing (he astral project there to scare us a bit then leave. We gonna kill Godrick? None of his business.).

And there’s also Godefroy who literally got locked up in a gaol… by a Leyndell Knight who later got the highest honour of Erdtree Burial after he passed away - specifically because of his feat in capturing Godefroy. Why are we forgetting Kristoff???

No one in Leyndell likes the Grafted guys, no one in Limgrave likes the Grafted guys, there are numerous items in-game expressing disappointment and sadness at the decline of the Golden Linage…. it’s a real damn no one likes you situation 😭

Then later on, Godrick got replaced by Nepheli.

So who are the ones being proud here ????

I’m not even a Godrick hater, I think he’s a fucked up, but compelling!, conclusion to the linage that Marika has with Godfrey - who is probably one of few people who actually knows what she used to go through.

I could even see the kind of pressure and struggle he must have gone through, humiliation after humiliation, hiding from and losing to Radagon’s children of all guys, carrying a legacy that is too big for him to handle. But to say that Marika and Godfrey would have been proud of him? Or that grafting is somehow a reclamation of the trauma Marika’s people went through and turning it into strength ????? He doesn’t even know that Marika was once not a God, let alone anything about her people’s suffering to reclaim anything ? That’s not his pain to reclaim ???

Someone else already did that. Marika herself. Rakshasa herself. You really do not have to give a man all the flowers for something women (who actually suffered and went through that trauma) already did.

[locuas642]

So anyways, Queen Marika the eternal was both a Warmongering conqueror and also a victim trapped as a servant to a higher power.

She conquered lands and destroyed her enemies, only "sparing" Liurnia because it actually fought back and did not bend despite her army's best effort. She was also, by the implications in the text and subtext, trapped into the will of something other than herself.

How much freedom she had is questionable, but we know for a fact she wasn't completely enslaved. What she did and why, it is pure speculation on our part.

She is neither a hero nor a villain, she is the representation of State and Religion, going from her origins as a barbarian to her end as the symbol of the empire as a whole. With her, Civilization came, and with all the sins that carries.

[oo-artsy-oo]

What if the hornsent were trying to make empyreans with the Saint Jars? The hornsent seemed to have created the divine tower but why did they never ascend? And Marika, a Shaman, is able to betray them and “steal” godhood?

The Shaman, which may have been Numen women, possibly arrived on the boats found on the Cerulean coast, are used in this pot ritual as a kind of glue.

These shaman were able to ‘meld’ with the flesh of others. Possibly being the ingredient that ties all the souls and flesh together, a Shaman is a person who can interact with spirits, maybe as well as unifying them physically by melding the flesh together, the Shamans are able to unify the spirits, maybe not into one soul, but unify their goals or intentions.

Not all Shaman are empyreans though, to be clear. Empyreans are beings who are deemed fit to become a god.

The known empyreans are:

Miquella

Melania

Marika

Ranni

An interesting part of all of these characters is their ability to “split” their soul into two or more beings, or at least, share their very being with another.

Miquella + St Trina

Melania + her daughters (the god of Rot)

Marika + Radagon

Ranni + ???

In Ranni’s case, I’m unsure of what her split identity was. It is stated: Ranni had her own empyrean flesh slain. She, like Melina, is a bodiless soul and since we don’t hear much about Ranni before she became what she is currently, we can’t really know what it was that made her worthy as an empyrean.

So, what is an Empyrean?

As I said before, Empyreans are those who are fit to become a god. But what actually makes them worthy?

To become a God, an empyrean must align themselves with the influence of an outer god, and become its vassal. Watching Miquella’s ascent to godhood, shows us that he needs to divest himself of his flesh, he also divests certain psychological aspects, such as his doubts and his love.

So to become a God, one must divest themselves of their flesh? Things that tie them to the corporeal realm.

The Vitruvian man shows an image of a man posed two different ways, one, which fits perfectly within a square and one that goes beyond the bounds of the square to fit within a circle. In regard to the vitruvian man, the man in the square, is mean to represent earthliness, being rooted within the confines of the mortal/material world. The man in the circle, is mean to represent the infinite or divinity.

In regards to Marika and radagon, their statues always portray them in unique poses. Radagon is always standing straight, head held high and his arm out to the side at a 90° angle. Marika on the other hand is often standing with her head stooped low as if looking down, her arms are curved upwards, her hands meeting the height of her head.

To me, this shows that Radagon represents the corporeal and/or human aspects, this is further shown by Radagon’s fervent faith and loyalty to divinity, he is looking up to the heavens and is depicted in front of a lattice which could symbolise support. He attempted to mend the Elden ring by implementing this lattice into its very design.

Whereas Marika, she represents the divine and eternal aspects, from the point of view of those seeing the statues, Marika’s likeness would be looking down at them, divinity is always shown to be superior to those stuck in the corporeal plain. She is also depicted in front of a shawl styled similarly to velificatio (a stylistic way to depict deities in ancient Roman art). The shawl may also be a depiction of her veil.

Back to the Vitruvian man, the theory behind this artwork is that a human is both earthly and divine, having aspects of both plains.

This is shown in the empyreans with their two seperate personas. Maybe, the way one becomes a god, is to divest themselves of their corporeal aspects and give themselves to an outer god. Miquella, in becoming a god divested himself of St. Trina, and Marika must’ve divested herself of Radagon. This doesn’t mean that those parts of themselves are killed, as St. Trina is not dead and neither is Radagon. Similarly with Malenia, it is said that after defeating her, she will “bloom” once more and become a god. Interestingly, all of her daughters kill eachother in battle, which would divest her of her human aspects, and yet it is said that even those ‘children’ will bloom again, becoming scarlet Valkyrie’s.

All of the current empyreans have shaman blood through Marika/Radagon. And since shamans have the ability to meld with others, maybe that aspect of them is what makes them eligible to become gods? Being able to meld with their chosen outergod.

Also, I don’t believe Miquella joined with an outer god. He created the unalloyed gold, able to propel outer gods. Miquella became his own god, creating his own order, abandoning the Elden ring (this can be shown in his circlet’s description.)

Anyway, another rant xD

[katyahina]

Marika had grey/ashen hair in her past?

So, I was taking a closer look at Marika's cut braid,

JUST like I was suspecting, her golden hair is not actually her color, but something she gained! You can see it is actually grey hair "painted" with gold, especially at the ends!

^ ( x ) The Shamans in Jars do have grey hair, too, despite what seems like a young age! I also was seeing something like looked a speck of gold hair in Jar Innards, but again, I looked closer, and I don't know anymore...

It is... something golden, but not hair? Maybe? Instead of hair, maybe this could be a thread of gold, something connected with the threads she pulls out in the second DLC trailer:

Both Grandam and the Hornsent NPC we interact with mention "Marika's betrayal", suggesting some sort of long planning and social games on her end in order to claim whatever power from the Divine Gates she claimed to have her Erdtree and then go with the Crusade at them! I will link a post from @val-of-the-north here ( x ) delving more into it, but yeah..

Seems like the Hornsent had no idea what hit them, and Marika stole some sort of golden threads naturally being an essence of people who were born in Shadow Realm... Or maybe, the gold thread found in jars IS the product of failed "ascension", since shamans (and not only they) were stuffed into jars TO become holy from how Hornsent saw it? :^) fun stuff.. So, Marika claimed that gold to herself when she became a God, painting her hair permanently this way now!

___________

This is more headcanonish, but additional support for this might be an idea that Dominula are descendants / close culture to Marika's Shamans! Hear me out:

This is a new item found in the Shadow Realm, and.. not only it is called festive, not only it uses bone shards to be made and Celebrants have many bone shards on hands, but also the feature of creating runes (!) on landing attack is a trademark feature of all weapons of the Celebrants!

(etc etc...)

Additionally, the celebrants seems to have copied Marika's trademark hairstyle (2 braids and the third one cut), as well as her specific iteration of Erdtree incantation:

But as for the grey hair, they're all just old, right....? WRONG!!!!!!!

They might be not necessarily all old! Instead, they might be shriveled up because of a long time alive, kind of like the wandering nobles that left the Leyendell after the Shattering! It is implied that they are not able to die from old age, even though they all look very """old""" at the first glance:

So, age of the Celebrants is a non-factor, as they are not old, they are undead! It seems to be the fate of the most Golden Order - affiliated people, after Marika disappeared and thus no one could die normally anymore!

However, copying hairstyle, doing the runes thing, copying her version of the Erdtree sigil, and even sharing the blue clothing with golden embrodery like her/Radagon and Godwyn all might point towards cultural proximity! Maybe they are descendants of the Shamans that were not slaughtered in the village (evacuated in time, lived in another place than the village and then were taken, etc)! So, them having grey hair even as 'young maids' could just be this genetic!

[ghostofashina]

"An affair from which gold arose and shadow too was born"

This was clearly about Lands Between and Lands of Shadows, how these two places coexist in different aspects. But also, I think it can give us a nice perspective about Godwyn and Messmer births.

This is just a small theory I made while trying to built up a timeline, because these two births tend to blend into the other and I think it's on purpose. And I know, where Melina fits in this? I still think Melina is one of the youngest of the pack, as a secret weapon of Marika recalling Messmer's kindling being out of her reach, but this is another theory for another post. Now, I'd like to bring a small theory about Godwyn being the child born from the seduction and the betrayal.

SOTE SPOILERS ahead.

We know, for certain, Godfrey was Marika's true first Elden Lord. But, even it being a common sense that Godwyn was their firstborn, there's actually no true evidence claiming he was born before the omen twins. Except that now, after one piece of dialogue in the DLC, can shows us this and a little more.

First things first. Messmer's dad still is the great mystery of Shadow of the Erdtree, and again I think this is on purpose, because considering Godfrey's evidence, the game wants to tell us he was already there when Messmer came to life. And I, personally, don't think neither Radagon or Godfrey are Messmer's father. I think, in a parallel to christian God, sacrificing his son for the sins, Marika birthed Messmer alone — and Melina, that's why they both share a vision of fire and are direct siblings.

According to Marika's own words: "[Radagon] Thou'rt yet to become me. Thou'rt yet to become a God. Let us be shattered, both. Mine other self."

Knowing that Marika comes from the Shaman Village, and that her people was "grafted" to each other in seek of the divine, he is a part she divested herself later in the story and Messmer was some sort of manifestation of this, but not necessarily a child of Radagon.

And I guess we can agree Messmer was born in the Lands of Shadow, because he knows very well the sins committed against his mother and her own modus operandi. He was there before her godhood and that's why Godfrey's offspring got the title of first demigods. And Godfrey, too, was there with Marika since the start.

I won't get into the timeline of events, because it's a mish-mash in game, and I don't have the tools to explore assets and files. But, one thing that the DLC gives importance is the act of a vow. And we know Marika and Godfrey did a vow.

Leaving his past of Hoarah Loux, Godfrey took Serosh upon his shoulders to ease his bloodlust and accept the role when he sworned a vow with Marika to become a Lord. Which can reminds us of the Secret Rite Scroll, found in Shadow Keep.

"A lord will usher in a god's return and the lord's soul will require a vessel."

We can argue here about the roles of vessel and soul, because it feels Godfrey became the vessel to the Beast Regent (some sort of lord), which recalls the amount of lion representation in Hornsent culture. So, I tend to think that Serosh was part of the "betrayal" in order to ascend Marika to godhood with Godfrey as her lord consort.

That's when I imagine Godwyn was born. After the vow, to consumate the idea of Godfrey being named a lord of the golden lineage once Marika achieved godhood and started the Age of Erdtree.

If we recall the Minor Erdtree, left to the matriarch at Shaman Village, it's said:

"Secret incantation of Marika Only the kindness of gold, without Order."

I can see this as Miquella divesting himself of St. Trina, his love. Marika bathed her home in gold, knowing there was nothing left to heal. Alongside with her braid, it was a departing gift, because she was leaving for a new era. She is leaving her kindness of gold, to built the order. Godwyn was her last act of kindness of gold before the Order. That's why we have so many evidences he, alongside Messmer, was her beloved child of gold.

Going deeper, once we advance the questline of Hornsent Grandam, she tell us a very specific dialogue line, that can show us why Godwyn was curseless when he was born, different from his siblings.

She spoke of a omen curse. Curse upon her children, each and all. Messmer as her own flesh and blood, which I believe, carried the grafting curse upon her people over and over again, being a vessel to an outer god "grafting" into Marika's child. But Godwyn was curseless, because he was conceived outside cursing eyes, in secret. He was born of a vow that, once came to common knowledge, was called "the seduction and the betrayal" in the eyes of the Hornsent.

The birth of Godwyn was the start of her ascension to godhood. The affair from which gold (golden lineage, golden order, the golden prince) arose and shadow (abyssal serpent "shorn of light", shadow keep, shadow tree) too was born. And everything about them is represented of golden and shadow. From the eclipse to the golden ring in their symbols (as we see in the Death Knight's cloak or battle axes and alongside Messmer's spear and flame). So, I keep thinking they both were born at Lands of Shadows. One to purge her enemies and protect her kingdom, the other to represent a new era and maintain her glory. Godwyn is the Golden and Messmer is the Order.