val-of-the-north

[val-of-the-north]

Libra, the enlightened Beast Clergyman

I think I have compiled enough evidence to argue for the vericity of what is mostly a headcanon that I thought fit well. After putting in a bit of research it made even more sense!

For starters, let's explain why I think he is a Beastman specifically, and why he isn't simply a demon or someone who morphed into this form through his research and methods.

At a first glance, Libra might seem like the first demon to appear in Elden Ring, even being a clear Baphomet stand-in and acting in deals like a true devil... however, demons don't seem to be a thing in this world, at least not in the way they were in Dark Souls and in Demon's Souls before it. Instead, to be a demon seems to be tied to how one is percieved. It's a purely mythological/behavioral denomination, which is actually quite rare for a fantasy game, especially of this kind.

@sahashbelvanie has a very good post on this topic specifically, going into most characters that are either called demons by the game itself, or can be traced back to real world demons through their names and actions. You can check it out here [x].

Now, why do I think Libra wasn't someone that transformed into a more bestial form? Mostly because there is no hint to what THAT could be. External forces that affect characters and creatures in the setting are usually methodical, you can link them together. For example, Rot will feature either plantlife, mushrooms or bug traits, Blood swells, mangles, creates bloody cysts... the closest transformation this could be is to the Crucible, and even so, he is too well-adjusted. No misplaced horns, scales, feathers, or tails.

He is perfectly caprine, with the exception of his many eyes... and THIS is the one trait that can be attributed to a transformation through external means, more specifically the power of Frenzy. While it usually melts away the eyeballs, in some specific cases like that of the Aging Untouchables, it can turn people into gardens of them, with eyes growing even down into their necks.

There is even one, very large eye underneath all of them, which reminds me of Libra's own large pair of horn eyeballs.

He even has an eye in the palms of his hands, and as shown by the Madding Hand, the effects of Frenzy do allow for eyes to grow down there as well.

Libra's multiple eyes, then, seem to have come from his dabbling into the power of the Frenzied Flame for his own desire of true equilibrium. Even so, they aren't nearly as bright, probably meaning he keeps it pretty much in-check... which is probably why he is also able to get Frenzied as Tarnished and Nightfarers do.

The reason why they are goat eyes and not human eyes is probably because he is naturally a goat. Of course he would not grow a type of eyeball that never belonged to him.

So yeah, the only trait of transformation are the many eyes on his body. He doesn't seem to have any ties to the Crucible, and his animalistic proportions are too harmonious to be its blessing anyway. Sure, Libra is all about harmony and equality, but that's probably why he wouldn't go out of his way to seek such a chaotic force. Because of this, I believe he's always looked like a goat and that he was once a Beastman like the ones we find in Farum Azula.

Now, I know what someone may point out: the Beastmen we see are all visibly predators, most of them being dog/wolf-like, and some, like Serosh, feline and lionine.

Libra, on the other hand, would be a prey animal, unlike all other Beastmen! And that is a correct observation... however, we do have evidence that herbivore Beastmen did exist once, and it comes from Farum Azula itself.

Many must have noticed the Beastman skeletons strewn about the skybound mausoleum. They are some of the more striking details in the area after all... well, they hold the answer.

There are many Beastmen skeletons like these in Farum Azula, with skulls that are unmistakably not from carnivores. In fact, they resemble the skulls of animals like sheep much more, which, much like goats, are part of the Caprinae family, a subfamily of the Bovidae!

And it can't just be a reused asset, as it is unique to these tombs. In fact, it would be easier to reuse the various entombed Beastmen found all over the place. Them not doing that feels meaningful.

If I had to guess... the Beastmen were once much more varied than they are now. I mean, just by seeing their remnants, it's clear that their species has seen better days. The only ones with even a slight bit of decency left are Maliketh and Serosh. I feel like in the event of a crisis or decline, it would be the herbivores to kick the bucket first. This might even help us understand just how ancient Libra truly is...

A similarity that truly sells the connection to me is Libra's behavior, his tendency to regress into a more savage state of mind. He is undoubtedly more well-adjusted than all Beastmen we have seen with the exception of the wise Serosh, and yet even he can be sent into an animalistic frenzy when certain things are done, such as breaking his meditative state or inflicting him with madness.

He headbutts, he slams the ground with his staff and fists, his magic becomes less methodical and more destructive and wild, his posture becomes hunched. He even starts to sound more animalistic.

This honestly reminds me of both Gurranq and Blaidd, who similarly lose their mind and begin acting more like beasts then men, losing sight of anything in their animalistic rage.

It's not even necessarily unique to them, as Beastmen within Farum Azula itself started losing their mind too. Some of them have regressed so much, they have become full animals, as seen from the dog-like enemies we can find there. They look quite similar to the canine beastmen found all over, and are even adorned in their jewelery and braids, meaning it's unlikely that these were always simple attack dogs, and that they probably de-evolved.

It appears all Beastmen thread a thin line between intelligence and instinct, and Libra did not do himself any favors by working so closely with the powers of the Frenzied Flame.

There are other aspects that tie him to Farum Azula and its clergy, specifically the five-fingered hand at the tip of his staff. As per the Cinquedea's description, we know that this symbol was especially relevant and meaningful to the Beastmen, as it represented their aquired intelligence, which elevated them from simple animals.

The Cinquedea itself was given to the high ranking clergymen too, which is the reason Gurranq wields one. This symbol has great religious significance to the Beastmen.

Of course, since Libra is both attuned to Chaos and Order, the five-fingered hand has a double meaning of marrying the two powers into one to achieve balance, mimicking the parallel nature of the Two and Three Fingers by creating a full-fledged hand.

However, it being a design with great relevance to Beastman society, coupled with Libra's animalistic appearance and tendencies previously discussed, seems to strengthen the connection between him and the creatures of Farum Azula. It also helps lend credence to the idea he was an important member of the clergy, which might make sense. From statues in the floating city, it's hinted that the clergymen served the Ancient Dragons directly.

As such, it's likely that they would be more involved in the law and decision-making of their societies. When I first off-handedly proposed the headcanon in a small Nightreign doodle-dump [x], @janusfranc15 made an interesting point about Farum Azula's implied caste system, and how this interpretation would make Libra's own desire for equinimity something that stems from a personal, genuine place, especially if he served a judicial role. I honestly really like this idea now, so I felt compelled to mention it here too.

A smaller, more negligible connection between him and Farum Azula's clergy is their robes, which cover most of their features.

(Cursed standing Gurranq/Maliketh lol)

Libra similarly wears a cloak that conceals most of his features, though this one is directly described as a disguise to appear less monstrous... not that it fully succeeds in that, you can still see the outline of his goat head and horns lol.

The two cloaks are pretty different though, with Libra's being more plain, while the one of the Beast Clergymen is much more detailed and somewhat flashy. Perhaps the simplicity of Libra's cloak serves to appear humble and unassuming. He can often blend into the environment very well... I've had people miss him often.

There is another interesting detail found in Libra's staff, this one is much harder to spot than the large five-fingered hand. At the lower end of the staff we find a relief depicting a human woman.

This seemingly odd design choice isn't actually that out of place for someone coming from Farum Azula. The crumbling mausoleum has its fair share of depictions of humans, one of which is so overt and in plain sight that it has been speculated about even back when the game had just come out.

I personally believe the woman featured in the relief is the same woman featured in the inner sanctum of Farum Azula, where Maliketh resides and hides with the Rune of Death.

In turn, I believe that woman to be Placidusax's God before her ascension, as well as the queen of the ancient empire of Rauh. My friend @katyspersonal touched on the idea for the first time in this post [x], though it isn't fully focused on that topic. However, I think it gives a good gist of the idea, and highlights some shared aesthetic.

This female figure, found throughout the ancient ruins of the perished civilization, seems to have held great importance and even a deific status. Many people are seen worshiping and praying before her, be they Hornsent archeologists or even Kindred of Rot, so the idea that she was a God of a previous age feels fitting, especially tying her to the deity that fled and that Placidusax still awaits, since that mysterious figure gets no further elaboration otherwise.

I already felt confident tying these cultures together, since they are both prehistoric and likely coexisted, but thanks to Libra's staff, I can build even more of a connection due to another detail. This one stood out to me as calling back to Rauh architecture.

The upper tip, where the hand rests, features an octogonal, pillar-like shape, which seems to depict a structure full of arches. This immediately caught my eye, as I found many connections between this design and the many ruins left behind by ancient Rauh. The octogonal pillars and arches are a cornerstone of the architecture of this vanished culture, so their presence on the demon's staff seems to reinforce a connection between this culture and that of the Ancient Dragons and their bestial followers.

Since the staff already features a religious symbol in the five-fingered hand, depicting the God of the prehistoric age would only make sense. So thank you Libra, for validating my delusions lmao.

As for the "enlightened" part of the post's title, I do not just mean his mastery of magic. Though that is itself something worthy of praise, he is not the only Beastman who can wield it. The Bestial Clergy had a whole school of Incantations to their name, and Beastmen would also adopt the Lightning Incantations of their draconic masters. Maliketh would also learn to wield Death itself.

He is still one of the most impressive magic-wielding Beastmen we have seen though, for sure... but the true nature of his enlightenment lies in his incredible knowledge. As stated before, he seems to marry the opposite powers of existence and non-existence, concepts once merged into a single being, the One Great.

I believe his pursuit yielded fruit. A detail I did not mention when discussing the effects of Frenzy on his body and how it probably made him grow eyes all over, are his weirdest sets of eyes: the ones strewn all across his forehead.

These ones do not resemble his goat eyes at all, and they have no yellow glint to them either. For that reason, I doubt they were born of the Frenzied Flame, and instead came from a different source entirely. I feel like that something had to do with the ancient Fingers.

His forehead eyes are exactly four, one after the other in a row. This reminded me of an enemy with a similar design philosophy: the Lampreys of the Finger Ruins. They feature four rows of two eyes. These beings are heavily implied to have once been people who tried to become Fingers themselves. They only partially succeeded, attaining a finger-like form, but never reached the higher intelligence and knowledge that the Fingers seem to hold.

It's easy to spot that Libra differs in eye count. He only has cycloptic eyes in a row, not two sets of them... and I think that's because he succeeded in his enlightenment where the Lampreys failed, and he didn't even have to turn into a Finger to achieve it.

The cosmos, the origin point of everything and the location of the Greater Will's abyss, is characterized by creatures who all appear one-eyed. From the crude Astels, to the perfect Elden Beast, to the aimless stars like Maris, to even the Greater Will's gleaming daughter, Metyr. And now that we have Everdark Maris, we can witness the true eye of the abstract being... another uncanny, human-like eyeball.

(I wonder if this implies we have never seen the Elden Beast's true eye...)

I think that Libra, through meditation, research, or something else entirely, reached some sort of revelation during his attempts to achieve true equilibrium. I would assume he is closer to the One Great than anything else in the setting, and that he is aware of its existence without needing to embrace the Three Fingers and heed their words. His goal doesn't fully align with the nihilistic view of those who would turn to the maddening yellow flame, as he seems to believe he can create a state similar to the One Great without having to renounce individuality and existence. It seems to be why he joined the Night and became one of its heralds.

His goals are, perhaps, madness themselves... but they are pretty commendable and fascinating in their own right. Though his Gold is conterfeit, he is the one who married Chaos and Order in the end, even if it's not perfect.

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I honestly can't wait for his Everdark Sovereign form. I really want to see the full extent of his esoteric knowledge... and also what's so terrible that he had to pierce his own body to keep it at bay.

I might add more to this post if the new phase reveals even more concrete things about him. Here's hoping!

[val-of-the-north]

the 7 illustrations i made for PHANTOM SUMMONED, a free collaborative ds2 zine

[val-of-the-north]

(You can find a Dancing Lion that summons Death rather than Storm in Rauh ruins, but there is not a single hint of the Deathroot nearby) I've connected the dots. I've connected them

[val-of-the-north]

The true identity of the Wormfaces: The Woodfolk

This is the first of a duology of posts detailing two of the understandably overlooked pockets of Elden Ring's world. I'll be sure to link to its sister post here once that is done.

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In this one we'll look at the Woodfolk, a tribe which resided in Altus Plateau. More specifically, they seemed to have inhabited the vast forest at the center of the region. We know this because their ruins are situated within it, mostly extending to the eastern part of it.

Sadly, we don't get anything else in text besides their name, but context clues can tell us what might have become of this seemingly extinct group of people, in the form of the enemy type found all throughout the forest and nesting in the Woodfolk Ruins. The entire forested area is characterized by the incoherent, ghastly mumbling and groaning of the resident Wormfaces, mysterious beings who can inflict Death Blight and who seemingly worship the Minor Erdtree.

These woods are one of two places where Wormfaces are encountered in the whole game, so could it be that they are what became of the Woodfolk? After all, inhabiting their forest and ruins while no human is in sight would seem to point to that possibility.

Erdtree Worship

The Wormfaces are religious beings. As stated before, they worship the Minor Erdtree in the area. It might be the reason why these creatures have an innate resistance to the Holy element too, as can be seen from their internal stats [x]. They even drop Sacrificial Twigs, which are believed to be twigs of the Erdtree.

Their religious behavior seems relevant to the many items that can be found in the Woodfolk Ruins, most of them relating to the Erdtree.

One is the Icon Shield, which speaks of the Age of Plenty, the very beginning of Marika's rule when the Erdtree produced sacred sap.

Another one is the Golden Slam Ash of War, a technique of the Erdtree Avatars.

Next is the Incantation Wrath of Gold, which states it was discovered after the Shattering of the Elden Ring as a sign of the Erdtree's wrath.

Lastly is a Nomadic Cookbook, which contains the recipe for Warming Stones, objects that hold a healing power reminiscent to that of the Erdtree.

It would be easy to conclude that the Woodfolk are the same as the Wormfaces, and this I believe too. But were they warped by the effects of the spreding Deathroot caused by Godwyn's body? Personally, I think not, for several reasons.

Those who don't live in Death

For starters it's their lack of connection to TWLiD. Despite being capable of inflicting Death Blight they aren't actually undead creatures made to rise again by Godwyn's influence.

Upon being beaten, they have no chance to rise again like Those Who Live in Death, whose essences linger unless killed with Holy weapons and incantations. They simply perish as any other enemy does, and their natural resistence to Holy damage is fully oppposed to the main weakness of all other undead, TWLiD or no. Not to mention, there is no sign of Deathroot anwyhere in the forest, which is unlike any other location where enemies who live in Death reside.

They also appear to have functioning organs, since they can sometimes drop Gold-Tinged Excrement, something that the various skeletons or zombies who live in Death wouldn't normally be able to produce for... obvious reasons lol. And it's even dung of the golden variety, so allegedely full of blessing.

Their behavior differ heavily too. Most Undead are found dormant, activating only when they sense a disturbance approaching. When they aren't dormant they are usually just standing around, or shambling almost aimlessly. The only ones who seem to do more than that are the skeletons of the Grave Keepers, who appear to be reciting something, continuously and without end.

In contrast, the Wormfaces are seen doing many more things. They sit in prayer, they stroll through the woods, they walk in circles around trees, they worship the Minor Erdtree, they lament, they even seem to mourn. One of them can be found sitting before a gravestone, a Miquella's Lily placed before it.

They appear much less aimless, closer to creatures like the Misbegotten or Albinaurics.

That can be seen in the way they adorn themselves. The Wormfaces are draped in moderately decorated cloaks and wraps which are designed to fit their currently-warped form. The garments of the larger ones are even more detailed, making it seem like they are more than capable of sewing their own clothes, which might also explain why Soft Cotton can be found in the Woodfolk Ruins.

They also wield some neatly carved sticks, which they might have made by hand and mended with resin, just as they did their garments.

This all stands in stark contrast with Those Who Live in Death, who wear old rags or consumed armor and wield rusted weapons.

This means their origin doesn't have to be strictly related to the Night of Black Knives and Godwyn's death. However, if that's the case, how can they have developed their uncanny ability to inflict Death Blight? After all, their faces are full of earthworms, which themselves are tied to Death Blight, as they burst from the Tarnished (or Nightfarers) whenever they are inflicted with it.

The game also consistently and directly ties the power to the Prince of Death. This is true, but there is one notable exception!

Ancient roots of Death Blight and the Wormfaces

While Death Blight has become emblematic of Godwyn and his close followers, there are hints to it having existed even beforehand.

The Death Birds become relevant to the conversation. These beings are said to have come from a creature known as the Twinbird, and that in turn, it acts as an envoy to an unseen Outer God who most likely deals in Death.

These creatures, completely unrelated to Godwyn and predating him by several ages, are relevant because of their own ability to prock the deadly sickness by simply screaming!

This could mean that Death Blight itself is something that originates from whatever the Outer God of Death is, which has some interesting implications for what Godwyn has become. Perhaps he is now the chosen herald of the Outer God due to his peculiar condition, much like Malenia and Mohg are for the Rot and Blood Gods.

This also means that the Wormfaces don't have to be tied to Godwyn at all, and might simply be some of the earliest results of this Outer God's influence. Technically not the only ones either, as some of the large Slugs found around the Lands Between, particularly the ones in the Altus forest, are infested by similar worms, which replace their true antennas entirely.

There is more proof as to why they might predate Godwyn and why their Death Blight isn't necessarily tied to him, and it's because of the second group of Wormface we can find in Elden Ring: the ones in the Crumbling Farum Azula.

This prehistoric location predates Godwyn and even the Erdtree by countless generations, yet the Wormfaces are found even here. While Deathroot is found in several spots of Farum Azula, it's nowhere near the small group of these beings here. Instead, they seem located in a pretty tucked-away area with plenty of trees, the most in the whole crumbling city. These ones have different fashion, adorned in detailed wraps and metal accessories.

Since there is no way for these creatures to move from their humble forest to the flying city, it makes it much more likely that their species came from Farum Azula and ended up in the Altus woods.

This would make the Woodfolk prehistoric themselves, much like the Beastmen who served the Ancient Dragons. The reason why even the ones who remained in Farum Azula are similarly blessed could be because they worshiped a previous iteration of the sacred tree (the Greattree?). As for how they can hold Sacrificial Twigs too, the answer might be as simple as remnants of the Erdtree getting even as far as the floating city, as seen from the Golden Seeds that can be found there. Surely, a few branches could have gotten there too.

As for why the Outer God of Death would have any influence in Farum Azula of all places, there does seem to be some double-bird imagery found around the city, which could be a potential reference to the Twinbird, who serves it.

Additionally, the place is an entire floating mausoleum. There isn't a place that's more Death-adjacent than that lol. When it's not the Beastmen embedded in the rock, it's the Ancient Dragons themselves.

This place would be the perfect origin point for a being that controls Death, and the first place where its influence was felt.

Proposed origin of the Woodfolk

The question of how they got separated from Farum Azula remains though, but this one might be easier than it seems.

We know that the Ancient Dragon Capital was hit by a meteorite, shattering it and sending its many pieces plummeting to the ground. This managed to displace a few Beastmen already, as we find a few of them hidden in caves across the Lands Between.

So who is to say this didn't happen to the would-be Woodfolk as well? In fact, the Warming Stones, that we find the recipe for here, are made out of the Ruin Fragments of Farum Azula! Additionally, we can find Gravel Stone within the Woodfolk Ruins as well, which are the broken scales of Ancient Dragons too, yet another connection! Nightreign itself ties the Death Blight ruins that can sometimes appear in Limveld with shards of the crumbling city, and even impaled, dead Drakes, so it feels like we are onto something here!

Maybe the location they inhabit in Altus Plateau could have even been flattened by the impact of a meteorite.

It's not a completely unfounded theory either! There is a mine in the southern part of the forest, which connects to the Perfumer's Grotto, a cave at the other side of the hill they are both dug into. However, the place where they intersect is home to a Malformed Star, the pupa stage of the Fallingstar Beasts, on the verge of becoming a true Astel.

So, these creatures from Farum Azula adapted to their new environment, becoming a forest-dwelling tribe that existed in ancient times, localized entirely within central Altus Plateau.

Now far away from their original home, they probably expanded into the forest, an environment that was surprisingly fitting for them. They already seem to have favored being around trees, as seen from their spot in Farum Azula, but this new land was full of plants and dirt.

At some point, they seem to have disappeared from history, which I will explain shortly. If I had to guess, they retreated underground once the ancient tree they worshiped was felled, making way for the Age of the Crucible and eventually that of the Erdtree, when they would finally return thanks to its growing influence. The ones in Farum Azula likely didn't become dormant like them, since their home is locked beyond time. Perhaps they never even knew their object of worship had disappeared...

Wormface society and the Golden Order

I'll link Zullie's video on the Wormfaces as the source of the datamined internal names of the Wormfaces for my next points, since it's more widely accessible.

As stated in this video, the Wormfaces' internal name is "Déraciné", which means "uprooted/displaced" in French. They are also divided in the smaller males and the larger females. Both of the larger Wormfaces are seen deep in prayer, the one in the forest revering the Minor Erdtree and wearing a pristine white robe, while the one in Farum Azula bows her head constantly. This might mean that the Wormfaces have a matriarcal society, with their leaders taking on the role of religious chiefs as well.

The difference in height between male and female is also reminiscent of the sexual dimorphism found in animals, which feels pretty relevant to their apparent roots in ancient Farum Azula. This might mean the Wormfaces weren't exactly human even when they were yet to be twisted by their writhing guests.

They don't seem to be Beastmen either, especially due to their very humanoid (if disfigured) ears and lack of fur anywhere on their bodies. Instead, they are probably something closer to a different kind of hominid. The females being bigger than the males reminds me of the Demi-Humans, creatures who are undoubtedly primitive but have clear ties to humans.

As for the reason why they chose the word "Déraciné" to describe them, I feel like Zullie's conclusion aligns well with what we have already discussed earlier, with them being from Farum Azula, much more ancient than they first seemed to be. However, the "uprooted" meaning of the word could tell us a missing part of their history too.

As mentioned earlier, they seem to have not been around for some time, and there is proof of this. Most of the unique items in the Woodfolk Ruins all belonged to the Golden Order, while the Wormfaces who inhabit the forest seem to have been much older than it. Leyndell even managed to dig out the previously-discussed Altus Tunnel, found south of the ruins. So it looks like Golden Order settlers expanded into the woods, even planting one of the Minor Erdtrees and likely collecting its sap for its benefits. This implies that they were alone in there, and that they were not aware of the Wormfaces that lived here.

Something must have changed that, and I think it was the growth of the Minor Erdtree itself, its massive roots expanding and moving the very ground, unearthing the dormant beings. If they are just like earthworms, the shifting of the ground could have alerted them, or even just awakened them from some kind of slumber, allowing them to resume their worship of the great sacred trees.

It's clear that the Wormfaces absorbed some of that Holy essence, becoming blessed in spite of their seemingly cursed nature, one closer to Death than the life of the tree. Even so, themes of an opposite power standing besides and coveting the other are found in both Dark Souls, with humans wishing to hold flame and light despite their very dark nature, and Elden Ring itself, with Shadow accompanying Gold and being born at the exact same time... and as we know, the shadow of Gold is Death itself, as per Enia's dialogue.

In turn, the Golden Order was probably unhappy with their presence in the forest and their ties to Death, a power Marika has been trying to suppress for a long time. They probably attempted to get rid of them quite a few times, which explains why two of the artifacts in the ruins are from two different eras of the Order's history. Perhaps they never could quite get rid of them, due to their innate Holy affinity. It might even be part of the reason why they built the bridge that goes over the entire forest, though something like that would be strategically important to build regardless.

Another group that appears hostile to the Wormfaces are the Dominula Dancers in the northern section of the Altus Plateau. They have a little checkpoint at the edge of the woods, with ladies who do not dance, but rather stare into the forest, as if wanting to be ready should anything come through. One of then is even already inside.

In spite of these hostilities, the fondness that the Wormfaces had for the Erdtree is likely the reason why they treasured the Icon Shield and why they feared the Erdtree's wrath when the Shattering happened and shook the world. It might also be the reason why the Guardians of the Minor Erdtree do not seem to harm them, and instead coexist around the large tree. Their pact was only with the Erdtree, so maybe they care little for the nature of the Wormfaces, and only see their blatant devotion and blessed selves.

Alternatively, they simply gave up when the Erdtree Avatar was slain. Recall that there isn't one even though their technique is found here. Perhaps they saw no point in fighting, especially since their faith seems to align anyway. Maybe the Wormface chieftess replaced the Avatar in their eyes. They are part tree by now, so they are likely kind of "mindless", only caring if someone would harm the tree they were sworn to protect.

The fact they are seen together does seem to exclude the idea that Wormfaces are simply Guardians corrupted by Deathroot, which is a theory I heard posited long ago. Their only similarities seem to be their faith and maybe their tendency to rest underground.

Extra speculation

A bit of baseless speculation now, but due to their vicinity to the forest, I wonder if the nameless derelict which became the Writheblood Ruins was once a settlement of the Woodfolk too, before their fall. After all, Magnus the Beast Claw, someone who is seemingly a follower of Gurranq due to his wild attire and his ownership of the Clawmark Seal and various Bestial Incantations, which the Beast Clergyman imparts to his Hunters of the Dead.

And he seems to take his job pretty seriously, as he was even taught Gurranq's Beast Claw, an Incantation you can obtain only after giving him eight Deathroots.

It's likely he is found around those parts exactly because it's his job to seek Death, and the creatures below have an inexplicable connection to the dreadful power he is up against. Unfortunately for him, there is no Deathroot to be found there, and also, he is the assassination target to make Varré happy if you don't want to invade others.

It's also likely that the small, nameless ruins in the eastern cliffside opposite to the Writheblood Ruins and overlooking the forest ruins were another part of Woodfolk territory, though now they only house a Mimic Tear that transforms into an Elder Lion. It might have also not been alone, and its companion simply ventured forth, going below and meeting the Wormfaces, before finding its way to Mt. Gelmir, where we can find it disguised as one of the creatures.

As the only Wormface here, it's unlikely they were ever in Gelmir. They wouldn't have much of a reason to come here anyway, as it's the opposite of their lush home environment.

[val-of-the-north]

That's a very good catch actually! It does seem like the upper class gets a different funerary treatment of some kind, or so it's implied at least. Apparently, the design is taken from this ancient Egyptian depiction, down to the double-headed goat.

Perhaps the practice of boating the dead never truly went away throughout history and simply became more niche, as common burials, Death Birds and their cremation rituals, and later Marika and her Erdtree burials just grew to prominence.

Other off references to ferrying the dead I can think of are the giant Stone Coffins in the Cerulean Coast, which appear to have been built by the Ancient/Uhl Dynasty and greatly resemble giant ships.

And at the base of Stormveil Castle, where the Cadaver Surrogate of Godwyn is slowly growing, which were maybe practiced by the original inhabitants of Limgrave (the Stormlord and Banished Knights?)

So yeah, maybe the Tibia Mariners were the first, but other cultures dealt with death in similar ways, even as common burial became more commonplace. If Godwyn and the various spirit jellyfishes and eels are to be believed, it seems like Death has some pretty strong connection to the marine, so it makes sense many people would gravitate towards this kind of thing.

Tibia Mariners and Those Lost in Death

While I am at it, I should talk about a detail found in Messmer's Shadow Keep. On the way to the Specimen Storehouse, you'll be faced with a peculiar sight: boats lit on fire.

This seems to be a callback to Viking funerals, except the boats are placed in a row and burnt on land. It's certainly an odd practice, but it might only be done this way because Messmer's forces are far from an accessible shore or water that's deep enough to perform it normally.

However, something else caught my eye. The boats looked quite familiar so I went back to check and...

It was the EXACT model as the boats used by the Tibia Mariners! Perhaps it is obvious seeing as the Messmer boats are used in a funerary rite, but I think it's still quite a significant connection, especially since the old Mariners have gotten quite a bit of new lore in the DLC. In Charo's Hidden Grave we can find the skulls of boatmen as a crafting material, presumably that of previous Tibia Mariners.

This is outright confirmed after finding the lone Tibia Mariner in the area, who upon defeat drops the Tibia's Cookbook, which describes them as the oldest of grave keepers.

(Btw I love the detail of the piece of lace cloth and golden ornaments, they are the same found on the Mariners themselves. They even come with the same ghostly glow)

This is quite the revelation, as prior to Shadow of the Erdtree we had no way of knowing that these guys actually predated the spread of Deathroot and Godwyn's transformation into the Prince of Death. And how could we doubt that, since they even drop Deathroot themselves? But there was something that most people have neglected to note about the Mariners, me included.

In the base game, the Tibia Mariner found in the Wyndham Ruins drops a spell called Tibia's Summons. This inconspicuous sorcery of the servants of death actually holds a perplexing description which mentions a group known as "Those Lost in Death".

There was something seemingly redundant and unexplained about these guys. What does "Lost in Death" mean? Why aren't they simply called "Those Who Live in Death"? It wouldn't blame anyone for assuming that this description just contains an outdated term for the undead before they stuck with the one used in-game. However, through the Tibia's Cookbook, we find a NEW reference to this same concept.

Roughly the same title (Those Lost in Death = one lost in death), the same underlying sentiment, and we have verifiable proof that the Tibia Mariners are outright ancient... so what's the deal with this? Well, I have a theory.

The descriptions of these things hint at the fact that the dead have been wandering for a very long time, and that they are in need of leadership. Before the DLC, it was easy to assume that the undead were simply a result of Deathroot, and the game seemed to suggest the same thing by stating multiple times that it was the origin of Those Who Live in Death...

... but that's the thing! Prior to Deathroot connecting them to Godwyn, the undead amounted only to shambling corpses. They were not LIVING in Death, but simply LOST in it, which is how the Mariners were able to control them in ancient times through the use of sounds, both their horns and the Calls of Tibia. It's only through the guidance of a lord, in this case the Prince of Death, that they found an identity and new life.

It's likely the undead waned in the era of Marika because of her elaborate Erdtree burials and general control of life and death. Heck, the figure of Rosus, who guides us to the Catacombs, must have also played a big part in their disappearance. His axe has a similar power to the Tibia's Summons and it's called Rosus's Summons. Its description also mentions that the dead easily lose their way, meaning that Rosus was meant to lend the dead a guiding hand. "Those Lost in Death" would be lost no more.

Without people Lost in Death, the Mariners kind of lost their purpose and vanished for a long time... until the Shattering and the rise of Those Who Live in Death of course. It might mean that the only reason they hold onto Deathroot is because it attracts and connects the new undead.

I guess Godwyn was meant to be a sort of "lighthouse" for all undead. He would make sure they never lost themselves but also that they would be allowed to live instead of being forced back to rest like with Rosus and Marika. Him being a "lighthouse" also fits the marine theme that all this death business is going for quite neatly I think...

But to return to what started this... maybe those boats lit on fire are Messmer's way of making sure the soldiers of his army aren't lost to death after their passing. A way to give them a proper rest the way Marika would have wanted, even though he is limited in what he can do about it. The Catacombs are now corrupted with Deathroots and Godwyn's corpse bodies, and guarded by his fervent golden Death Knights.

(P.S. - I didn't know where to put this, but "Charo" is one letter off from Charon, the ferryman of the dead in Greek mythology. Seeing as the place is connected to the Tibia Mariners, who shepherded Those Lost in Death in an age long past, I find that this connection might not be mere coincidence...)

[val-of-the-north]

Oh man I almost missed this one.

I believe the Tibia Mariners predate the Hornsent by a long margin, as the Hornsent funerary practices seem to differ from those of the boatmen, as their horns act as a medium to contact the spirits of the dead which they revere. There is also a lack of horns on the Mariners themselves, which is a trait I feel they wouldn't lose even as skellies.

They are also described as "the oldest of grave keepers" which almost makes it sound like they were the very first ones to ever pick up the practice in ancient times, possibly predating even the Death Birds and their funerary rites and making them contemporaries of the ancient people of Rauh, who the Hornsent archeologists study.

In that case, they might have actually appropriated the symbol during their research. Then again, it's interesting the Mariners even feature that design on their boats, as the Marika Rune Arc is often associated with life and they deal in literally the opposite force. I guess the symbol might have meant different things in different cultures and times. I guess it could simply be a representation of the lampwood/Helphen as the land of the dead. After all, it is the spot where their ghostly lamps are attached to!

Sorry for the wait, and thanks for the question! I genuinely forgot to respond to this in time, thankfully I remberd ahah.

Tibia Mariners and Those Lost in Death

While I am at it, I should talk about a detail found in Messmer's Shadow Keep. On the way to the Specimen Storehouse, you'll be faced with a peculiar sight: boats lit on fire.

This seems to be a callback to Viking funerals, except the boats are placed in a row and burnt on land. It's certainly an odd practice, but it might only be done this way because Messmer's forces are far from an accessible shore or water that's deep enough to perform it normally.

However, something else caught my eye. The boats looked quite familiar so I went back to check and...

It was the EXACT model as the boats used by the Tibia Mariners! Perhaps it is obvious seeing as the Messmer boats are used in a funerary rite, but I think it's still quite a significant connection, especially since the old Mariners have gotten quite a bit of new lore in the DLC. In Charo's Hidden Grave we can find the skulls of boatmen as a crafting material, presumably that of previous Tibia Mariners.

This is outright confirmed after finding the lone Tibia Mariner in the area, who upon defeat drops the Tibia's Cookbook, which describes them as the oldest of grave keepers.

(Btw I love the detail of the piece of lace cloth and golden ornaments, they are the same found on the Mariners themselves. They even come with the same ghostly glow)

This is quite the revelation, as prior to Shadow of the Erdtree we had no way of knowing that these guys actually predated the spread of Deathroot and Godwyn's transformation into the Prince of Death. And how could we doubt that, since they even drop Deathroot themselves? But there was something that most people have neglected to note about the Mariners, me included.

In the base game, the Tibia Mariner found in the Wyndham Ruins drops a spell called Tibia's Summons. This inconspicuous sorcery of the servants of death actually holds a perplexing description which mentions a group known as "Those Lost in Death".

There was something seemingly redundant and unexplained about these guys. What does "Lost in Death" mean? Why aren't they simply called "Those Who Live in Death"? It wouldn't blame anyone for assuming that this description just contains an outdated term for the undead before they stuck with the one used in-game. However, through the Tibia's Cookbook, we find a NEW reference to this same concept.

Roughly the same title (Those Lost in Death = one lost in death), the same underlying sentiment, and we have verifiable proof that the Tibia Mariners are outright ancient... so what's the deal with this? Well, I have a theory.

The descriptions of these things hint at the fact that the dead have been wandering for a very long time, and that they are in need of leadership. Before the DLC, it was easy to assume that the undead were simply a result of Deathroot, and the game seemed to suggest the same thing by stating multiple times that it was the origin of Those Who Live in Death...

... but that's the thing! Prior to Deathroot connecting them to Godwyn, the undead amounted only to shambling corpses. They were not LIVING in Death, but simply LOST in it, which is how the Mariners were able to control them in ancient times through the use of sounds, both their horns and the Calls of Tibia. It's only through the guidance of a lord, in this case the Prince of Death, that they found an identity and new life.

It's likely the undead waned in the era of Marika because of her elaborate Erdtree burials and general control of life and death. Heck, the figure of Rosus, who guides us to the Catacombs, must have also played a big part in their disappearance. His axe has a similar power to the Tibia's Summons and it's called Rosus's Summons. Its description also mentions that the dead easily lose their way, meaning that Rosus was meant to lend the dead a guiding hand. "Those Lost in Death" would be lost no more.

Without people Lost in Death, the Mariners kind of lost their purpose and vanished for a long time... until the Shattering and the rise of Those Who Live in Death of course. It might mean that the only reason they hold onto Deathroot is because it attracts and connects the new undead.

I guess Godwyn was meant to be a sort of "lighthouse" for all undead. He would make sure they never lost themselves but also that they would be allowed to live instead of being forced back to rest like with Rosus and Marika. Him being a "lighthouse" also fits the marine theme that all this death business is going for quite neatly I think...

But to return to what started this... maybe those boats lit on fire are Messmer's way of making sure the soldiers of his army aren't lost to death after their passing. A way to give them a proper rest the way Marika would have wanted, even though he is limited in what he can do about it. The Catacombs are now corrupted with Deathroots and Godwyn's corpse bodies, and guarded by his fervent golden Death Knights.

(P.S. - I didn't know where to put this, but "Charo" is one letter off from Charon, the ferryman of the dead in Greek mythology. Seeing as the place is connected to the Tibia Mariners, who shepherded Those Lost in Death in an age long past, I find that this connection might not be mere coincidence...)

[val-of-the-north]

I have a proposition as to why Placidusax's God didn't survive being devoured the way Rykard did, and it has to do with Marika making her Demigod children effectively immortal by tampering with the cycle of Life and Death. That way, he never got outright digested and could coexist within the God-Devouring Serpent. Meanwhile, this ancient Goddess wouldn't have touched the configuration of the Elden Ring (after all, its depiction in Farum Azula is pretty whole) so she would be consumed with no problem, only giving the serpent a giant boost in power upon consumption.

I also wanna propose that the Pinionfolk were the ones who got rid of the ancient Gelmir cult before Rykard uncovered it again. The weapon that destroyed the Serpent-God in ancient times, the Serpent-Hunter, uses the power of the wind, which their species seems pretty attuned to.

From the Guardian's choice of weapons we can also deduce that Pinionfolk preferred polearms, halberds and spears, and wouldn't you know it, the Serpent Slayer is a great spear weapon... also come on, hawks hunt snakes irl, it fits quite well ahah

Of course, while they successfully crippled the cult and slayed Eiglay, the serpent never dies and slowly regained strength until her return. The Stormveil culture is probably also an offshoot of the Pinionfolk, possibly post-loss of flight, or at very least the Stormlord is.

If the Gloam-Eyed Queen is truly connected to Stormveil, which she seems to be the case seeing as her prayerbook and seal are stored in Castle Stormveil and her Greatsword is stored in Caelid, which likely belonged to the Stormlord as well, and her children use arts that are reminiscent of whirlwinds and storms, then it's possible that their alliance or union was meant to bridge the gap between the two cultures and let bygones be bygones. I mean, political unions like these were essential tools, and she did need a Lord too... they also ended up having a common enemy by the end of it.

Okay okay let's try to map it all again

1) Placidusax was an Elden Lord, so his 'god' that was fled, was likely the same as Marika was a God. There is a very humanoid statue of a lady surrounded by triple wolf under depiction of primordial Elden Ring though

2) The lady has same Slavic aesthetic as Rauh people

3) Area where we find the Gelmir's Serpent-God's Curved Sword also has Rauh connections: Makar is a Slavic (Russian) name, Makar is literally fought in the area full of Rauh ruins and architecture, the unique bat lady wearing a kokoshnik (again, a Slavic headwear) is found in this area too

4) Magma Wyrms are people that do Dragon Communion, ie eating hearts of Drakes. There are four Magma Wyrms; one is Makar, another found in the mountains of Gelmir, another found underneath Gelmir mansion, the last one is a troll Theodorix. That makes 3 out of 4 Magma Wyrms be connected with Gelmir, Makar is a middle point

5) Dragon Communion is the practice taking roots from Farum Azula

6) Now-extinct Gelmir Cult has Temple of Eiglay with a Godskin Noble in it, and one of the man-serpent variants straight up copy GEQ's Godskins style

At the same time, Gelmir has depictions of a half-serpent half-bird

6) Birds, specifically hawks, are allies to Farum Azula, same as Stormveil

7) Eiglay and Winged Serpent appear to be related, as eyes of Winged Serpent and man-serpents are the same kind of green:

*According to the person that datamined textures ( x ), man-serpents do all have green eyes, but those except for Rya have the additional filter going over their eyes to make them darker

You can see with Melina's purple eye as an example that sometimes additional filters are used

8) Winged Serpent has dragon wings

9) Godskin Apostles turn their flame like a whirlwind, similarly to Banished Knights and all alike

10) Godskin Apostles and Nobles are both half-serpents; Apostles stretch and spin similarly to man-serpents and Nobles not only have a snake tail, but also they are not actually "just fat"! They are very long snakes that simply coil underneath rather than stretch in and out:

11) GEQ is consistently depicted as serpentine, and is the reason snake is seen as traitor of the Erdtree as it could not have been Messmer (snake traitor is addressed by Godfrey's Duelists, and Messmer with his knights were clearly on good terms with Godfrey)

12) Unlike in Dark Souls, in Elden Ring, snakes are not genetically connected with dragons

____________________

So how about this:

Placi's God was a Rauh royalty, who was fled to hide in Gelmir (escaped Bayle's wrath?) along with multiple other people, and discovered Eiglay in there! Perhaps, Eiglay ate her (which is why Placi's wait is futile), instilling fear into people that now bent their knee and formed the sacrificial cult around her. Fear can turn into reverence very easily and faith can be a fickle thing!

However, some cultural aspects as allyship with Stormveil and Dragon Communion remained in this new culture. Female monarch would be a kin to Eiglay, birthing serpentine people and, as ideal result, the Winged Serpent. It inherited wings as genetic trace of Dragon Communion. Gloam-Eyed Queen was the last kin to the Gods Devourer, though seems like not quite like Rykard as her depictions are obnoxiously humanoid and her Godskins are half-human. Maybe she had smaller Eiglays as part of her body, same as how Messmer got small Winged Serpents as part of his?

After being chosen as an Empyrean by the Two Fingers, she mirrors Marika, owning Scadutree that was planted together with the Erdtree, and "proper" Death Flame that is "gold accompanied by shadow". Upon creation of the Golden Order, Rune of Death, ie Shadow, was separated from the Elden Ring, severing GEQ from the equal position from Marika as Marika had no interest in letting Death have its natural power in her Order and intended to live forever. Expecting GEQ to do her own thing and be no longer of a threat backfired, so it took Maliketh to further severe GEQ from even her fragment of the Elden Ring, the Death Rune.

+ I suppose it makes my shitpost ship of GEQ and Stormlord unnecessary for the lore fhshdfs Thanks a lot, Makar...... Though, why not, if they both have descent of allies of Ancient Dragons?

[val-of-the-north]

☀️🌧️

Felt like drawing the guys.. Heolstor seems to have the Soul of Cinder thing going on where his design is multiple armors clashed together, since he takes upon dying wills of his clan. I can reasonably assume individual armors of that country were a bit more elegant

[val-of-the-north]

He's being bashful.

[val-of-the-north]

DS3: But the game is rushed, we can't spend too much time making face data for all characters with their face completely covered!!!

Also DS3: NO, PATCHES DOESN'T LOOK GOOD ENOUGH! TRY AGAIN, HE HAS TO LOOK PERFECT!!!!!

Context: [x]

[val-of-the-north]

Marika Isn’t A Gooner Paradise

As someone who’s, for lack of a better word, a “stickler” for lore-accurate depictions of characters—even when working within limitations (such as actual designs being left to inference based on related items and text)—one thing I kind of dislike is “Gooner Marika” (dense and curvy in every way) or the butch and stocky “Muscle Marika.”

When we actually look at Queen Marika’s design, it’s somewhat “awkward”—not at all the kind of design you’d associate with a goddess of blessings and abundance. Take Gwynevere, for example: she has fair skin, lush brown hair, a full face, and more or less “thick” proportions, especially in her breasts, hips, and thighs. Both Marika and Gwynevere wear more or less revealing garments, with Marika even going topless on what is likely more than one occasion.

Marika is incredibly tall—roughly 9 feet—pale, with broad shoulders, yet possessing rather thin, lean-muscled arms. Most of her body fat seems to collect around her lower body (hips, thighs, and butt), with a chest that’s less than daunting compared to someone like Gwynevere. Her face is incredibly narrow, though soft-featured, with an average nose and somewhat thin lips, large eyes—somewhat sunken—and a high hairline from which long, lusterless blonde hair cascades, dragging at her feet. Her hair is rich, but appears almost a fading yellow, soft—reminiscent of the “richer” hues seen in her sons, Godwyn and Miquella. Her shattered model—thank God—is consistent with the Shadow of the Erdtree trailer cinematic.

Queen Marika is in no way ugly. I love her design so much. It’s just... “plain,” for lack of a better word, especially when compared to most fan art depictions of her. She isn’t Goon Pilled or Muscle Mommy—she’s an awkward tall-lean combo with average, though beautiful, features. And I can’t express how much I love her for this. I think it subverts expectations of a goddess meant to embody grace, sap, and maternal divinity.

I also like this, given her origins. Marika comes from a small, quaint village of spirit practitioners—all women—nestled in a vibrant, flowery meadow. The village’s matriarch, the Grandmother, looks an awful lot like Marika herself: soft yet narrow facial features, a flat chest (unlike Marika, admittedly), and thin body proportions. Now, the Grandmother is a corpse in a tree, so she’s probably emaciated because of that—but even so, Marika herself isn’t exactly dummy thick year-round.

Plus, this makes Godfrey’s cut line about Marika surprisingly believable, LOL. He kneels before the Erdtree and tries to assure her that he’ll take her into his arms once more. Godfrey is literally four feet taller than her—standing at roughly 13 feet—and is a broad, muscle-rippling giant of a man.

And what’s funny about “Marika the plain elf” is that Radagon is her opposite in so many ways—beyond just their ideals or sex. He’s actually a few centimeters taller than her, has a darker skin tone, red-orange hair, and he’s thick. Barrel-chested, broad-shouldered, well-toned arms, a waistline and legs like damn tree trunks—his body is absolutely ripped, dawg. His facial features are youthful, with a pronounced nose, a defined square jaw, and rather full lips. Like… no wonder Rennala fell for him.

Did I mention he’s caked?

To be fair, Marika is caked too.

The seemingly “repaired” images of Marika and Radagon are by Redditor Exbax (Soul Mender). While the skin tones are a little inaccurate, all things considered, he did a lovely job.

[val-of-the-north]

Sweet, that's a great read Kat! There is lots of nuance that gets lost in this conversation that makes the whole thing seem very one-sided, especially the disregard of Gehrman personally training Maria in her Hunter ways. In that sense, it wouldn't make sense he'd see her as a dainty little housewife if he specifically taught her to be more like him. It does really feel more like overcompensating for something he might feel responsible for. I'd say it's more misguided indulgence in fantasy than anything else, something that can still be judged but not something outright criminal. I mean, pee paw got his fair share of horrible crimes he has to answer for lmao.

I also don't think there's any conclusive evidence to the fact he was the one who wanted her like this? Sure, she goes on a tirade about loving humans because "she was made for that", but that feels more like something that plays into the hierarchical nature of existence, at least in the setting. Humans love the Gods because THEY made them, so she must love humans because they made her. In fact, the fact that she addresses the Hunter, saying "Isn't this how YOU've made me?", shows that she doesn't see herself as Gehrman's, but humanity's. And her attitude is probably what made the old man not enjoy her company all that much. I do think he might have wished her back to some degree, but the result was likely skewed by the Great Ones being sympathetic of humanity's plight, but not understanding their inner workings. So Maria IS back, part of her soul IS in the Doll, as evidenced by her being directly linked to the Nightmare Maria and reacting when she dies fully. She just isn't a fully-formed person anymore. She is an automaton, and funnily enough, this is how she is referred to in a lot of the other translations for the game.

Food for thought I'd say.

Lady Maria has such facinating butch/queer masc vibes because her former master/father figure has a subservient and extremely feminine echo of her locked away in a dream and you assume she must have been like a beloved daughter and this is sad and sweet if a little creepy and then you meet her and she's dressed in men's style clothes and every honey-sweet word that drips from her mouth is backed up by an army's worth of ruthless, unrelenting violence and you're like OH and then go yesss!! Many of us have to contend with the false corpse of who we never were parents and family insist on dragging around!! Go the fuck off Maria there is nothing soft about your blood-soaked hands!!!!!

I love The Doll don't get me wrong but I also think if Maria found out Gehrman made a fake, demure and submissive version of her and is telling hunters they can use said desecrated corpse "as they see fit" she would, despite her reverence for him, kill him immediately. And she's right.

[val-of-the-north]

Yeah, Death is treated as quite the supernatural phenomenon in Elden Ring's world. There are countless ways in which Deathroot could have made its way into these secluded locations. Farum Azula has Maliketh, stuffed with Deathroot (they were feeding him even before our arrival), and for the Land of Shadows, it's both explicitly a place where death converges, and the place of origin of the Tibia Mariners, and they seem fond of holding onto Deathroot. I made a post about the Mariners long ago, and how they actually aren't members of Those Who Live in Death, instead being a group of grave keepers that are much more ancient and spectral in nature [x] (shameless self-plug I know lol).

Relevant from the self-plug is Messmer's funerary treatment of his men. The catacombs found throughout the Realm of Shadow are the same as those found in the Lands Between, which were used by the Golden Order. It's likely they kept this role for Messmer's troops, and even Andreas and Huw were buried in there. One of them is even built two steps from Castle Ensis, and is overseen by a fort. They must have been in use/accessible even after the Realm of Shadow was removed from the rest of the world, as the reason the two knights perished is tied to the discovery of Messmer's true nature, and likely spurred by the fact that Marika abandoned them all. A Black Knight ghost despairs thinking that Marika could have done this, saying it can't be true due to Messmer's lineage... so yeah, finding out it might actually be true after all could be cause for rebellion indeed.

But now they don't seem to be used anymore, likely due to the Cadaver Surrogates and Godwyn's Death Knights. This seems to imply, at least to me, that the boat-burning is a more recent development caused by those golden undead squatters. In fact, the surrogates found in those catacombs seem to be less formed than the one at Stormveil Castle, which is the origin of Stormveil's "curse". I assume this growth developed during or after the Shattering, as a common belief for the brambles that come from it is said to be a result of the act of grafting, so after Godrick fled Leyndell and established himself in Stormveil as a result of the Shattering.

As for how the Death Knights got there, that's a good question. I mean, I could believe they hitched a ride from the Tibia Mariners themselves lol. Their undead nature makes them able to travel between planes just fine... in fact, it's likely how the Death Knights got here too, if we want to believe that.

Tbh, I think that the foundation of that video is in itself kinda flawed. He uses Rogier's dialogue to contrast with Ranni's in the cinematic trailer for Elden Ring, but like... they more or less say the same thing. Like, the story doesn't change in the slightest between versions.

Furthermore, the Japanese script does not specify that it happened "long before the Shattering", just before it.

古い黄金樹の盛期、まだエルデンリングが砕ける前

It then goes on to say that it is believed to be the catalyst of the shattering of the Elden Ring and the resulting war, which would be odd if it had happened quite a long time after the event, no?

エルデンリングが砕け、破砕戦争が起こる、 その切欠になったと言われています

So I do not buy that it took centuries for it to happen in response to the Night of the Black Knives, especially when several sources claim this event was the one that pushed Marika to the brink. I don't think someone pushed to the brink can manage having two more babies and wait until they are older while ruling a kingdom in the meantime, just to then go and have her crash out.

And that's one of the main problems, really. Separate Marika from this event, and what is a good jumping-off point for her to break the Elden Ring? Because like, there is no other event correlated to that decision, leading to there being a very fat void of nothing in between. The queen's sorrow is said to be the main motivation for Marika's actions, and we don't have a big event that could act as a replacement for that kind of strife, unless we just assume she did it unannounced one day for some reason, which the game doesn't really imply. Again, it's always Night of Black Knives, then Shattering, one after the other.

In fact, what isn't ever mentioned together with the dire plot is Godfrey's banishment, which was instead spurred by a lack of battles and enemies.

At least, this is what's implied, and let's be honest, it makes little sense that Marika would want to get rid of her war guy when it's clear there's some internal conspiracy going on, since the culprits were Numen close to her. Now more than ever, she'd need a strong warrior to deal with her enemies, except she just kicks him out instead? Strange too, as the people who perished were mostly his children, so wouldn't he be at least a little bit angry? Especially since the theory posits he was very angry about the Ancient Dragons being revered in his city (he likely wasn't, but that's a different part of the theory I'd rather not touch on now lol. his interpretation of "cult" is just... so bad in this instance tho)

Then, as Sillovain pointed out, Ranni is completely out of the picture because the game states she died at the same time as Godwyn. And yet she has a throne in Leyndell too, and people regard her as part of the main circle of Demigods with her title of Lunar Princess, which this theory posits could not have happened unless Godwyn and Godfrey were out of the picture.

It's also hard to reconcile with Rennala's mental state, which is caused by Radagon leaving her. You'd think it would be worth pointing out that "also her darling daughter died too" but these events never come up at the same time. In fact, a spell left by Ranni herself protects her own mother, which to me implies she had to have been there to see her declining mental health rather than hidden away from the world as we see her.

Lastly, Those Who Live in Death are also relevant to the analysis. Two of the most common variants of undead we meet are Skeletal Militiamen and Skeletal Bandits, both of which have direct ties to the Shattering war. For the Militiamen, we have it in their name. These were members of a militia, a group of civilians acting as a military force, often to supplement an actual army during a state of emergency, which in this case could very well be the Shattering! This is the only event that feels like it would cause most people to fight amongst themselves, and for militias to rise among the populace. And this is further strengthened by the Skeletal Bandits, who, from the description of their blades, we know are the reanimated remains of bandits who were very common during that war.

Other potential hints that these events are close would be the weapons of choice of the bulkier skeleton variant. Some wield greataxes used by executioners to kill the remnants of defeated armies, some wield glaives once used as simple farming tools and repurposed as weapons for war.

So really, except for the Sun Realm Knights and the Skeletal Grave Wardens, these undead seem very tied to the casualties of the Shattering, which would make sense if the rise of their kind had come close to civil war erupting in the land.

In the end, it's somewhat strange that these two events are often mentioned together, as if one resulted in the other, if they didn't happen relatively close. Even just Rogier's recounting makes it odd, because then he'd be purposefully omitting other historically important moments such as Godfrey's banishment, Radagon becoming Elden Lord, the birth of Malenia and Miquella, etc.

Like, how is this event in any way relevant to the Shattering and none of the others that happened much closer to it, following this interpretation? It's kinda like recounting a recipe and going from "break three eggs in a bowl" to "take the cake out of the oven"... and it's not like it's immediately relevant to the topic Rogier is talking about, aka the dire plot, so there really isn't any need of mentioning it at the end if there was any degree of true separation between the events. Wouldn't Godfrey's banishment be more important? You could maybe argue with Ranni and the cinematic trailer, maybe even the game's intro... but when Rogier does the same when he has no need to, then I'm sure the devs are implying something with it.

I kinda understand why this possibility is intriguing, honestly, but I do feel like the game goes out of its way to establish a very tight-nit order of events regarding these two historical moments. The game itself is really fond of mentioning them in the same breath...

It's also hard for me to believe because the dude making this theory seems quite opinionated on his version of the events, and this interpretation seems built specifically with the intent of removing Godwyn from Miquella's storyline, which in itself is hilarious since you need to bend the timeline a whole lot to put the Gloam-Eyed Queen and the young prodigy anywhere near the same timeframe... so clearly, stretching stuff isn't something he is unwilling to do.

I also find his reasons for disregarding the possibility that Miquella could have had any sort of connection to Godwyn to be kind of shallow lol. Sure, anyone can pray for people whom they have not met, but FromSoftware does this kind of stuff meaningfully. Like, the existence of that description already implies something, which is more than can be said for HIS pick for the statue lol... not to mention the entirety of Castle Sol, which is hard to remove from the equation. Yeah, his take on the prophecy idea is interesting, I'll give him that, but he cannot disregard the blatant Soulless Demigod imagery and the Eclipse Shotel clearly being imbued with Deathblight flame, a power of Godwyn as Prince of Death... and yes, I have issues with him disregarding that mention as it relating to the concept of the Prince of Death separate to Godwyn when the game explicitly says they are the same guy and never makes a distinction.

(I swear he acts like people just made the connection out of nowhere when there is ample evidence connecting the two, which is just enough to build a connection for a FromSoft game)

His conclusion that we are Miquella's soulless comrade also makes very little sense, regardless of whether Godwyn died in the past as he claims or if he died some time before the Shattering, because the Tarnished would be out of the picture anyway in both scenarios. So, how would Miquella know some graceless bum of no renown who lives beyond the Sea of Fog? And how does Leda not recognize us? And why do we not recall anything regarding Miquella?

Ultimately it's fun to speculate, but I think the timeline is fine as it is currently understood... I have my doubts that so many people would have missed the intended reading for so long AND so badly. Like, I know the community can make mistakes, but at that point it's just the writers being bad at conveying their point... unless they are not and what you see is what you get, which seems like it's the case lmao.

no cuz while i dont want to agree with that one guy about the statue, i DO think he was more than right in saying we should re-assess the timeline, especially re: godwyn’s death and the shattering. cuz if farum AND the shadowlands both had deathblight (and the latter a whole ass godwyn body bud or two), then that means those were both sequestered off AFTER godwyn died. but likely BEFORE the shattering, at least in regards that marika goes dormant over the war (and i do not think a broken elden ring could do All That in hiding/moving whole lands)

not only does the shadowlands have godwyn bodies, but it also has the death knights:

“once the personal guard of godwyn” and also holding power of the dragon cult. so these aren’t just randos who showed up and decided to loom around his corpses, they were with him from the start, and around long enough to both a) continue their work into a new faction and b) discover the new corpse buds, and presumably already have been guarding them for some time. for how long is up to debate, but the time between “godwyn is killed” and “the shadowlands are severed” definitely is not extensively short

and as we know messmer also knew radahn… placing messmer’s exile BEFORE the shattering, but potentially AFTER godwyn’s death… so anyway at least if you’re like me and had assumed messmer’s exile was pretty old, and also the space between godwyn’s assassination and the shattering was instantaneous, well i don’t think the latter is especially the case. by godwyn’s death being the “catalyst” for the shattering, that still doesn’t necessarily mean it was one right after the other

especially if it would’ve taken either 1) absolute mind-wipe to get messmer’s legacy removed from memory, or 2) enough length of time for his memory to get forcibly scratched out (and then we also have the snake-killing rituals of the coliseums to consider…..)

so yeah uhhh godwyn for real maybe, actually killed during godfrey’s reign?? which would definitely help allow for time

[val-of-the-north]

Like I said, I was studying the Sun's children designs! Learned that Filianore's coat and Gwynevere's sleeves and ribbons are transparent. Young Grynn is based on Warriors of Sunlight statue, but with some creative liberties because I am allergic to low details. :>

I based their colors on the day cycle theory I've made earlier! So, Gwyn's "morning" eyes are reverse Gwynevere situation (grey with orange circle), and Filianore's eye color is orange/yellow mixed together with grey!

+ Want to preface and add that Priscilla and Yorshka are not children of the Sun. Gwyndolin is Sun's LASTborn, whereas Yorshka is his younger sister! Meanwhile, Priscilla is not only pure Dark but also is a bastard child, when her father, Seath, is a legitimate member of Gwyn's family! He is a 外戚! But ❗ I still intend to draw the halfbreeds too, and Shira as well! Just another time, in another post!

[val-of-the-north]

Micolash has pure black and wavy hair, not brown and straight hair. Rykard is blond, not redhead. Henryk's eyes are very bright and desaturated brown that can even look pink sometimes, not blue. Gwyndolin had bleach white skin and grey hair when we met him in Dark Souls 1. The long braid we see on Rellana is not her hair, it is a parting gift of Rennala's hair she decorated her helm with. Adella's hair is dark brown, not black. Sulyvahn is not wearing a mask, his face is a tree like the rest of his body now. Doll and Maria are absolutely identical in their height, colors and flatness. Yurie has blond hair and grey eyes, not black hair and blue eyes. Brador can't wear his beast hyde while Laurence is still alive because this hyde is scalp of a Cleric Beast and Laurence was the first Cleric Beast. Eileen doesn't have canonical appearance. We don't know what Bloody Crow's hair color is because what looks like hair is helmet decoration. Ranni's doll body is not smooth and skin-like, she is a puppet messily held by strings. Elden Ring protagonist is Knight Set or at least one of the origin sets, not fucking existing (!!!) character Vargram.

[val-of-the-north]

Damn, I never noticed Reah's Hollow form was very blue. It resembles that of the Crystal Hollows found all around the Duke's Archives.

I guess it implies they started experimenting on her right away and that she didn't just go Hollow from being captured... poor girl :(

[val-of-the-north]

Some Nightreign doodles centered around the Nightlords. A lot of speculative designs, but it was really fun. We've got:

Fulghor's face reveal.

Adel in all his glory, before the starvation.

Young Libra, working as a Beast Clergyman.

Humanoid Caligo with Banished Knight for scale.

The Revenger, whom I believe to be Heolstor [x].

The sillies.