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atomicradiogirl · 9 months ago
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Son of a Coma Guy: Unconditional Love is Cutting Your Heart Out
Son of a Coma Guy is leading up to the climax of the Tritter arc of House season 3, only two episodes before Finding Judas, where Wilson betrays House and makes a deal with Tritter, an action that ultimately dissolves their relationship until Season 4. The episode starts with a unique structure, with no patient cold open. Just House having lunch with two patients in comas. Wilson barges in and yells at House for “forcing him to lie to the police” that House didn't steal Wilson’s prescription pad and forge his Vicodin prescriptions. This is all in the first minute of the episode, setting up the intricacies of House and Wilson’s relationship that will soon get pushed in the later events of the season. 
Wilson is characterized as a person who is selfless, giving, loves to be needed, and will do anything in his power to help people he cares about, especially House. House does something that should rightfully break this friendship: put Wilson’s career on the line and possibly send himself to prison. Wilson is mad at House for only thinking about himself and putting himself in jeopardy. Wilson isn’t mad at House for using him and his kindness. House always does this. Wilson likes being used. In reality, Wilson is scared for House, not himself. He lied to Tritter to protect House. House didn't force Wilson to lie for him. Wilson did it anyway. The ultimate act of loyalty and care, the ultimate sacrifice. This is all read between the lines, of course, and this important revelation in the opening of the episode sets up the actions and importance of Son of a Coma Guy. 
We are then introduced to the titular Son of a Coma Guy, Kyle Wozniak, who has a seizure when House induces one. Kyle discusses his medical history and his family history. He says that his dad never liked his mother’s side of the family, and he was raised by a guardian. He only visits his father, who is in a coma. House wakes up his comatose father, Gabriel Wozniak. The last thing he remembers is the fire that killed his wife, something that is revealed to have been caused by Kyle later in the episode. House and Wilson discuss Gabriel. House argues, “Maybe he just doesn’t like his son. The delusion that fathering a child installs a permanent geyser of unconditional love.” Wilson interjects with, “Maybe your father’s feelings were conditional. Not everyone-” House cuts him off, “Yes, of course, that would play into your romantic vision of-” Wilson says, “In terms you would understand, we have an evolutionary incentive to sacrifice for our offspring. Our tribe, our friends. Keep them safe.” To which House replies, “Except for all the people who don’t. Everything is conditional. You just can’t always anticipate the conditions.” Wilson’s argument here mirrors his actions at the start of the episode, sacrificing himself and keeping House safe from the consequences of his actions, even if he deserves them. House says that maybe Gabriel’s relationship with Kyle is conditional, that love and sacrifice can never be unconditional. Referencing his abusive relationship with his father and his perception of love. That it always has to have a catch. This is really important in understand House and Wilson as characters, and especially in their relationship. Wilson views love as being programmed, an innate thing you’re evolutionarily destined to have. House views love as something you earn, something you get, something that has conditions. Wilson might have a romantic vision of love, but his love life is just as unhealthy as House’s. Constantly putting people’s needs in front of his own, sacrificing himself for House, which is left unnoticed and unappreciated by House. Someone who views this sacrifice as conditional when, in reality, it isn’t. This is the dichotomy of House and Wilson. 
House fulfills Gabriel’s last-day request of getting a sandwich and needs Wilson’s car for a road trip to Atlantic City. Wilson of course, lets him have it but decides to come with them. House keeps questioning Gabriel so Gabriel makes a deal with him that for every question House asks, Gabriel asks him one too. Gabriel asks House if he’s ever been in love, House says yes. Says that they met when she shot him in paintball, talking about Stacy. Gabriel asks if House has ever loved anyone else and House deflects saying, “no more questions” but Wilson is of course in the car with them. House doesn’t want to admit that he 1. Either loves Wilson or 2. Is capable of loving Wilson since this would prove his conditional love theory, that he loves Wilson only because he selflessly gives House what he needs. 
In the hotel in Atlantic City, Wilson asks House why he used his pad, not Cameron’s Foreman's or Chase’s. Wilson says that it’s because his association with House is voluntary. That he chooses to be close to him. “Any relationship that involves choice you have to see how far you can push before it breaks. And one day our friendship will break and that’ll just prove your theory that relationships are conditional and you don’t need human connection or deserve it or whatever goes on in that rat maze of your brain.” House deflects this, of course. Incapable of being truly honest about his feelings at this stage. House, throughout the show has a deep insecurity about deserving love, deserving to live, and deserving to be happy. Wilson’s unconditional loyalty to him pushes against this. Yes, there are moments when their relationship wavers but it never truly fully breaks. He always comes back to House and in the end, he relies on House. House is all Wilson has, and Wilson is all House has. Son of a Coma Guy is the first proof that House can bend Wilson and his relationship and Wilson will bend with him. Their social contract of push and pull. Bending but never fully breaking. 
House questions Gabriel about his family history, eventually determining the illness that is inherited throughout their family. Gabriel asks House why he became a doctor, and he decides to be honest with him. Saying that when his father was stationed in Japan he went to one of the hospitals as a kid and he was inspired by a doctor, a buraku, one of Japan’s untouchables. Someone whose ancestors were slaughterers and gravediggers, he wasn’t accepted by his staff, but they needed him because he was right so nothing else mattered. Gabriel is asked about the fire that killed his wife, and he explains that Kyle when he was 12, knocked over the kindling which started the fire. He didn’t blame him because he was just a child and it was an accident. Gabriel isn’t with him because he blames himself for failing to keep his family safe. He couldn’t stop the fire and save his wife. He doesn’t want to see his son die too. This goes into Wilson’s evolutionary love argument. Gabriel loves his family so much that he can’t bear to lose them, to fail to protect them.
Gabriel decides to perform the ultimate sacrifice, to give Kyle his heart to save him. House decides to go along with it, telling Gabriel how to kill himself so that the heart can be saved, by hanging. Before he aids Gabriel, he asks Wilson to leave the room. Wilson says no, but House says, “You’ve lied to the cops enough for me. Maybe I don’t want to push this until it breaks.” To which Wilson leaves, accepting that House appreciates his sacrifice and is willing to put himself on the line for someone else. Something that House rarely does. Gabriel asks House if he could hear one thing from his father what would it be? To which House says “I’d want him to say You were right. You did the right thing.” What this is truly about we don’t know and never really find out but House’s abusive relationship with his father isn’t truly revealed until One Day One Room a few episodes later, which puts new context to this line. House has to kill a father who loves his son so much, even though he accidentally caused the death of his wife, that he is willing to sacrifice his heart for him. Gabriel unconditionally loves his son, but House’s father’s love was conditional. This is what Wilson argued previously. Gabriel is willing to sacrifice his heart, (do I have to mention Wilson’s Heart) also mirrors Wilson’s sacrifice at the beginning of the episode. Both Gabriel and Wilson prove their unconditional love. Wilson wordlessly sets up House’s alibi for him and they wait together for Gabriel to die. When Gabriel’s heart saves Kyle, Kyle asks House for any message from his father, something to give him closure. House tells him what he wishes his father would have told him. “Right about what? What does that mean?” Kyle asks. “How would I know? He’s your dad,” House tells him and leaves.
“You know what I learned about this case?” House asks Wilson at the end of the episode. “That it proved that people can love unconditionally and you can tell yourself it’s not true, but you’ll just end up in a hotel room in Atlantic City asking someone to cut your heart out?” Wilson says. 
Son of a Coma Guy is an episode about unconditional love and sacrifice. Gabriel and Wilson are the givers, those who sacrifice their hearts (literally and not literally) for the people they love. Kyle and House are the takers. Those who don’t think they deserve the love they receive but are forced to take it. Kyle, to live, House for growth. I adore this episode and it is a prime highlight of House and Wilson’s relationship and the peak of House’s writing.
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deoidesign · 2 months ago
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Thinking about vampires, death, life, and the space they occupy in between
#to be or not to be. that is the question#ty adam for being my model for dramatic vampire moment#musings on the thinkings about:#when to live you are required to hurt others. you must repeatedly ask yourself what the value of your life is#To sleep... perchance to dream...#ah. THERES THE RUB.#ok I actually couldnt come up with too many thoughts. I had a lot more while I was drawing this but I guess I put them in the painting LOL#reading that soliloquy and being like damn this is just like vampires#the reality of course is that the soliloquy is a debate over suicide and ultimately making the choice to live#even if just out of fear of the unknown#and vampires are about dying and then in undeath choosing to continue to live#despite the fear of eternity and loneliness and hurting others#theyre not the same. but like let me thiiink come onnnn I'm allowed to thiiink and have incomplete thoughts#I would have to write like a proper essay about this to organize my thoughts. this is the tags on a tumblr post.#anyways finished episode 79#working on patreon stickers for this month (and next month soon)#and working on book 4. taking a pause from episodes cause I've got 3 weeks of buffer now... UGH#I'm so mad that they changed it. it would have been 5 weeks before but it's fine it's whatever#anyways yeah taking a break from episodes to make my book now!#its good stuff.#and this painting is good stuff#banger after banger from me tbh#this was a little relaxing giving myself a couple hours to muse#it's necessary for my health and I always forget that til I do a painting...#I loved doing the little landscape in the background too I should do that more! I love how plants are just like whatever shape you want#like you can make up any plant you want and not only does that plant PROBABLY exist somewhere#a weirder plant exists somewhere too. so. literally whatever you want#ok bye again for a few days while I get back to work
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catboydan · 6 months ago
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my very specific prediction for the upcoming AITA video: he'll open by explaining that last week on the gaming channel he had an 'AITA' moment himself [insert clips from the dan eye incident here]
then he'll lead into the vid by saying something like "and that inspired me to ask you all for your 'am I the hole' moments", and only then will he bring up that this time, he asked for specifically dating/love-related stories, leaving us to piece together that the intro is a dating/love related story via the maxim of relevance
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buglaur · 1 year ago
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this is kit, please commission some art from them on social bunny 🙏
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ai-higurashi · 1 year ago
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Do you think after the triplets first moved in, Scrooge was just-
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tio-trile · 1 year ago
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Oh good Neil Gaiman finally unfollowed me after all my bullshit I can be even more unhinged now
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hellogoodbyeitsme · 1 month ago
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Broke: Damian is bad at being a Robin because he's too violent
Woke: Damian is bad at being a Robin because he's afraid to hurt people
#obviously it's always funny to do the whole 'what do u have there Damian?' 'a knife!' 'nO' thing#and like make him a horrendous and silly evil gremlin who can and will pull a sword out in the middle of a parking lot to fight#but listen#he doesn't like the assassin background that much and once he learns about like The Normal World he's honestly in anguish about it#that's canon! that's the truth! (right?) (the whole thing with Goliath?? I'm not making it up right???)#i think he's just the kind of guy who loves his swords because they're what he knows and they're a strong connection to his family#but I think it's nice if he spends his time on field telling others what to do because everyone else learned to fight the OTHER way#(by defending and subduing opponents rather than maiming and killing)#so he prefers to take on a tactician general role despite being perfectly capable as a fighter because he knows what everyone else needs#to do to succeed in fights - especially when things are a bit of a mess - but is afraid to be too rough or scary or violent or Demon Son-is#(the things that make him feel like he doesn't belong in a happy civilian world - WHICH IS WHAT HE WANTS IN MY HUMBLE OPINION.)#in this essay I will explain why this allows for him to show awe and love for each of his siblings' fight styles by utilising all of them#and I just think Dami Babs and Tim could really work together as a detective/tactician comms team (with varying distances from the field)#because I think that'd be so fun: Tim is solving (mid-range) Babs is watching/providing supports (far) and Damian is commanding (close)#because the others are like The Bruisers (in their non-lethal way) who trust themselves to only hurt as much as is needed and are good at i#PLUS babs is SO stretched thin and literally the backbone of the bats so I just want a future where some of the kids become HER robins yk#anyway back to the point of the post:#it's kind of alluded to in 2017 supersons; EVERYONE in it comments on how Robin is JUST doing flips and shouting orders#and jon is like The Muscle and the one Doing Stuff - but Jon IS following orders 85% of the time and it works out well for them because#that dynamic of 'I'm not sure I can do it right by myself and I trust you to be my partner so we can do it right together' really#is my favourite like.. they're both filling these ideas of who they're meant to be and they just :( they just seek their own path together#oh no I lost the point again immediately and it became another WHY DO THEY SEPARATE THEM rant#I just think it's really fun to think of Damian as 'the most well trained fighter but ALSO the most likely to step back from a fight'#like yeah when we add in my thoughts on pit rage it adds some angst but that doesn't matter here in THIS post#have I even talked about my hc on pit rage/madness? I don't think I have LMAO (maybe another day)#anyway it's late I'm tired why do I always chat in the tags so much#my posts are literally all in the tags 2% post 98% tags smh#damian wayne#damian al ghul#damian al ghul wayne
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hephaestuscrew · 1 year ago
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"Minkowski's been talking about Sondheim again
": Minkowski's love of musical theatre and what it reveals about her characterisation and her relationships
TL;DR: Renée Minkowski's love of musicals, while it might seem just like a mundane character detail, is used to give depth to her character because it contrasts with expectations of her from both the listening audience and the other characters. Her willingness or unwillingness to share this interest in different circumstances reveals her relationships with other characters at various points. Since this is a long one, if you'd rather read it as a document, you can view it here: Google Doc version.
"She actually really cares about these talent shows": Episode 8 (Box 953)
In the early episodes of Season 1, Minkowski is presented (largely through Eiffel's unreliable perspective) purely as a strict no-nonsense authority figure without much emotional depth, the kind of person who only likes things that are useful, purposeful, or mandated by Command. In contrast, musical theatre is a creative pursuit that has nothing to do with the mission of the Hephaestus and is viewed by many people as fairly frivolous or silly. The gradual exploration of Minkowski's passion for musicals is one of the many ways that the show expands and challenges our understanding of her as a character. 
The first indication that we get of her interest in musicals is through her entry into the infamous talent show, something that is required as part of the mission. Minkowski really cares about 'crew morale' activities in general, even when they actually have a negative effect on morale and even before she's friends with any of her crew (for example, the Christmas and Thanksgiving dinners in the earlier stage of the mission), perhaps partly because doing things in the "right way" is important to her. 
But Eiffel senses that the talent shows aren't just about rules for her: "it’s bad enough when she makes us do something just because it’s military protocol, but I think that she actually really cares about these talent shows". This might be the first indication that we get of Minkowski caring deeply about anything that isn't inherently part of her role as a Commander. Moments like this are part of the gradual process of giving us insight into her character beyond the Commander archetype that she tries to embody. And yet, she only indulges her theatrical passion because something mandatory gives her permission, or an excuse, to let another part of herself out.
Of course, to satisfy the needs of a talent show, she'd only need to provide a performance of a few minutes. But Eiffel mentions "the second act of the play" - which along with Hera's comment that "Isabel isn't the biggest role in the play" - implies that Minkowski was intending to put on the whole of Pirates of Penzance as her talent show act, rather than a few of the songs or some kind of medley. (I suppose that Eiffel could be exaggerating or Minkowski might have been planning to do extracts from different parts of the play, but I prefer the interpretation in which Minkowski gets to be more ridiculous.) 
Even though no one else would be willing to be in her production of Pirates of Penzance, Minkowski casts Hera as Isabel, a role with two lines and no solo singing. I found some audition notes for this play which said "The traditional staging gives [Isabel] more prominence than the solo opportunities of the part suggest, so she must be a good actress" which does make me sad in relation to Hera's inability to have a more significant role by being physically present on stage. 
It’s sweet that Hera still wants to take part though. She tells Eiffel "Pirates of Penzance is a classic of 19th century comic opera", so either she’s absorbed what Minkowski has told her about the show, or she’s done her own research and formed her own opinions. I enjoy the fact that Hera is the one Hephaestus crew member who shows potential to share Minkowski's musical theatre appreciation; I like to think that this is something they could explore together post-canon.
Anyway, I'm obsessed with the idea that Minkowski was planning to play every character except one in Pirates of Penzance, a show which is designed to have 10 principal characters and a chorus of 14 men. It seems that her contribution to the talent show was supposed to be an entire two-hour two-act musical, with costumes and props, in which she would play almost all of the parts. This is very funny to me as the perhaps predictable consequence of giving an ambitious and frustrated grown-up theatre kid a position of authority and asking them to arrange a talent show. Minkowski knows that the audience will be made up of her subordinates who are theoretically obliged by the chain of command to watch and listen, so she absolutely tries to make the most of that opportunity. There's probably also a degree to which she limits other people's involvement in her musical because - as with her other endeavors - she wants the outcome to be almost entirely within her control (something that is usually pretty much impossible in as collaborative a medium as musical theatre).
Of course, Minkowski's behaviour in most of the talent show episode is affected by her being drugged by Hilbert. This creates an exaggerated situation which is the first real opportunity for Minkowski to be something other than the strict sensible authoritarian Commander and the foil to Eiffel's jokey laid-back attitude. I don't agree with ideas that being intoxicated brings out anyone's true self (especially in the absence of consent for the intoxication), but it seems pretty clear that being under the influence of whatever was in Hilbert's concoction caused Minkowski to fully commit to a level of manic enthusiasm for her musical production that might have otherwise been obscured by her professionalism. It's a particular kind of person who belts showtunes when drunk, and Minkowski is that kind of person, even if that's not how she wants to present herself. (As a sidenote, I seem to remember that they took Emma Sherr-Ziarko's script off her to help her sound more drunk. It's an excellent performance.)
Minkowski wants interval ice cream. She wants "pirate costumes" (and she'll threaten to shoot a man to get them). She wants "swashes and buckles". She wants whatever props she can get her hands on (including a real cannon). This show is important to her, even though only three other people will witness it and two of them actively don't want to be there. It’s important to her for its own sake.
Eiffel says Minkowski wants "a second pair of eyes to tell her if the prop sabre for her Major-General costume was a bit much
"  While I certainly wouldn't put it past Goddard Futuristics to have a prop sabre on the station for no apparent reason, it feels more likely that she might have made it or adapted some existing item. Which suggests that maybe she was that passionate about the props even before Hilbert drugged her. 
Even so, it does feel significant that Minkowski's love of musicals is only revealed in the episode in which she is drugged, exhibiting lowered inhibitions, exaggerated behaviour, and an "impaired euphoric effect". Her love of musical theatre is initially revealed through a professional structure that provides permission, and then further emphasised by a forced intoxication that exaggerates some impulses that perhaps she already had.
"Some hobbies other than making trains run on time": Episode 17 (Bach to the Future)
After Eiffel tells to find Minkowski to find something else to do while her work duties have quietened down, they have the following exchange:
EIFFEL: You must have some hobbies other than making trains run on time. Something to do with friends? Boyfriends? MINKOWSKI: Of course I do, but, well, there aren't really a lot of opportunities for rock climbing or trail hiking in the immediate vicinity. 
Even though this quote doesn't mention musicals, I've included it here for two reasons. Firstly, it's very funny to me that, even after the talent show debacle, Eiffel acts like he's never had any evidence of Minkowski's hobbies. She tried to perform a whole play almost single-handedly and it didn't occur to him that this might indicate an interest of hers outside of work. I think this reflects the fairly two-dimensional view that Eiffel has previously had of Minkowski, which her interest in musical theatre didn't fit into. 
Secondly, it feels notable that Minkowski doesn't mention musical theatre here. She wants to show that she has non-work interests, but without undermining her own authoritative image. Her interest in rock climbing and trail hiking - while it may be genuine - fits with how she wants to be seen as a Commander. These are hobbies which portray her as physically capable, with a high degree of stamina and a willingness to adapt to perhaps less hospitable surroundings. Of course, Minkowski does have these traits and they serve her well on the Hephaestus. But there's not really anything particularly surprising about her expressing these interests. The surprise in this scene comes from the reveal that she has a husband, a character detail which - like her love of musicals - isn't something we'd necessarily expect from the archetype-based view of her we are initially presented with. 
Her interest in rock climbing and trail hiking never come up again, because these details don't really deepen her characterisation (or at least, they aren't really used to deepen her characterisation beyond proving that she isn't entirely all-work-and-no-play). In contrast, Minkowski's love of musicals is brought up over and over because it shows another side of her that she struggles to reveal on the Hephaestus, and that allows more interesting things to be done with her characterisation.
"You wanted to write showtunes": Episode 35 (Need to Know)
Alongside the more high stakes discoveries prompted by the leak from Kepler's files, we also learn that Minkowski applied to - and was rejected from - the Tisch Graduate Musical Theater Writing Program.
Up until this point, we've only had evidence that Minkowski enjoys performing in musicals. But here we learn that Minkowski doesn't just love watching or performing in musicals - she wanted to write them too. This suggests a creative side to her that we never see her fully express.
The course
The Tisch Graduate Musical Theatre Writing Program claims to be the only course of its kind in the world and it accepts just 30 students each year. The current application process requires applicants to: upload play scripts or recordings of songs they've written; answer a large number of extended response questions about their creative process and views on musical theatre; write a 'statement of purpose' which has to talk about why they are applying and include 3 original ideas for musicals; provide a professional resume and a digital portfolio; complete an exercise of writing in response to a prompt; and undergo an interview. The process might have changed somewhat since Minkowski would have been applying (which, if it was soon after she finished college, might have been around the early 2000s) or it might be different in Wolf 359's alternate universe, but I think we can safely assume that applying to this course was a serious undertaking that required an intense amount of commitment and work. 
Applying to a course like that isn't something you do half-heartedly or on a whim. You couldn't apply to this course if you hadn't done a fair amount of musical theatre writing already. (The course requires applicants to choose to apply as bookwriters, lyricists, or composers, but I'm not going to make a guess here as to which of these Minkowski went for.) The fact that Minkowski wanted to study this course suggests that she was seriously considering trying to make a career out of musical theatre writing. In Once In A Lifetime, she tells Cutter that commanding a space station has always been her dream job, but we've got evidence here that it wasn't her only dream job. There's something kind of funny and kind of sad about the idea that writing musicals was her back-up / fall-back career path. She does not like to make life easy for herself.
The revelation 
This information is revealed against Minkowski's will. It's not something she wanted people to find out, and she isn't happy about them knowing:
JACOBI: "Dear Renée, thank you for your interest in the Tisch Graduate Musical Theater Writing Program..." MINKOWSKI: Oh, come on!  JACOBI: (pressing on) "We are sorry to say, we will not be able to offer you a spot in this year's blah blah blah." Oh this is too good. You wanted to write showtunes?  MINKOWSKI: Number one? Shut up. Number two, why are my personal records on there?! [...] How is it in any way relevant?! JACOBI: Oh, I think it's very relevant. I mean, if you're sending someone to pilot ships in deep space, you want to make sure that they can, you know... paint with all the colors of the wind.  Jacobi CRACKS UP - and, although to a lesser degree, so does Lovelace. Minkowski looks at her: really?  LOVELACE: Sorry, Minkowski. It's... it's a little funny.  MINKOWKSI: No, it isn't!
Minkowski seems defensive and embarrassed here. She obviously doesn't trust everyone there with this revelation (Jacobi, Maxwell, Lovelace, and Hera are all present). She considers this information to be "personal" and irrelevant and not even "a little funny". She's used to reactions like Jacobi's (and to a lesser extent Lovelace's); in Ep41 Memoria, she says "most people think it's hilarious that I like musicals" (see below for more thoughts about this quote). But the fact that these mocking reactions are expected doesn't mean that they don't bother her. She wants so badly to be taken seriously and, in this scene, her interest in musical theatre seems to be incompatible with that. Jacobi reacts the way that he does because of the idea that I've already expressed, that a passion for musical theatre does not fit with the serious authoritative image that Minkowski has often presented. It's not the typical hobby of a soldier, especially not a Commander.
To me, the way Lovelace laughs suggests that she might not have previously known about Minkowski's love of musicals, or at least perhaps not the full extent of it. At any rate, it's definitely news to Jacobi. And Minkowski clearly hasn't talked about it enough for it not to feel like a big reveal for her.
The rejection 
It's notable that this reveal is not just that she wanted to write for the stage, but also that she failed to get into a course that might have helped her work towards that goal. This of course compounds Minkowski's discomfort at having this information revealed. Not only did she want to write showtunes, but she encountered rejection in her attempts to do so. This detail implies that perhaps it wasn't just the appeal of her spacefaring dream that stopped her going down a theatrical career path. 
I'm about to move more into headcanon territory rather than just straightforward analysis, but I personally believe that, while Minkowski auditioned for a lot of musicals (particularly as a child / young person), she was never cast as the main role. She seems embarrassed about her interest in musical theatre in a way that (at least judging by people I've encountered) people who were always the lead in their school / college productions don't tend to be. 
We don't have much evidence about her actual level of singing/acting ability, given that she is inebriated during the only time we hear her sing in the podcast. However, it resonates with other aspects of her characterisation to imagine that Minkowski was generally good enough to get an ensemble part but never quite good enough to be cast as a main part. I think she might see only ever being cast as part of the ensemble, and failing to get into the Tisch Musical Theatre Writing programme, as slightly more down-to-earth examples of the same pattern as her repeated rejections from NASA. She is desperate to prove herself. She is "someone who very much wants to matter. To do something important." When she casts herself as almost every part in Pirates of Penzance, she is finally taking the opportunity to be a main character, an opportunity which I imagine had been denied to her over and over in both a literal and metaphorical sense.
"It's just from a play I saw once": Episode 41 (Memoria)
The next scene I want to talk about is from a memory of Hera's, which took place on Day 57 of the Hephaestus mission and in which Minkowski appears to be talking about the Stephen Sondheim musical Sunday in the Park with George:
MINKOWSKI: Oh, it's just from a play I saw once. It doesn't matter. (BEAT) The guy who sings it is this famous French painter. And his entire life is kinda falling apart. But he can always turn what's happening around him into these beautiful paintings.  HERA: And? MINKOWSKI: And... That's, I don't know. Reassuring, maybe? (BEAT) I don't know why I'm going on about this. You don't care.  HERA: I think it's interesting.  MINKOWSKI: Yeah? Most people think it's hilarious that I like musicals.  HERA: I don't see what's funny about it.  MINKOWSKI: Well, thank you Hera, but you're not exactly... you know.  HERA: I'm not... what? 
There's a couple of different things I want to pick out from this exchange. Firstly, the line "Most people think it's hilarious that I like musicals" makes me sad. I don't think she's talking about people on the Hephaestus there. Judging by the quote I talked about from Bach to the Future, Eiffel definitely wouldn't have registered Minkowski's love of musicals at this stage, and I doubt Hilbert cares at all about the hobbies of his fellow crew members. So Minkowski is talking about experiences that she's had on Earth, of people mocking her interest in musicals and thinking it doesn't fit with who she is. You can hear the impact of those experiences in Minkowski's reluctance to elaborate, in the way she says that something she obviously cares about doesn't matter, in her assumption that Hera doesn't care.
Secondly, this scene is a complicated one for Minkowski and Hera's relationship. On the one hand, Minkowski freely talks to Hera about something she's passionate about, and Hera listens and expresses interest. Hera validates Minkowski's interest in musical theatre without making a thing of it being weird and Minkowski thanks her. Again, it’s shown as an interest they could could potentially share.
But on the other hand, it seems like part of the reason Minkowski feels able to open up to Hera is because at this point Minkowski doesn't see opening up to Hera as fully equivalent to opening up to a fellow human. She doesn't just accept Hera not making fun of her interest; instead it seems Minkowski is about to imply that this lack of judgment indicates Hera's difference from humans (although she does have the decency not to say it outright). Minkowski's expectation of judgment from others contributes to her saying something very hurtful to Hera here. (This kind of potential consequence of negative self-attitude is explored a lot with Eiffel, so it's interesting that Minkowski can sometimes have a similar issue.)
Minkowski and Hera's conversation is interrupted when:
The DOOR OPENS.  EIFFEL: Hey, Minkowski, we've - What are you guys talking about?  MINKOWSKI: We were just discussing how I'm going to take away your hot water privileges if you don't reset the long-range scan.
Eiffel can obviously tell that he's walked in on a conversation that is about something other than work, or he wouldn't have asked. But Minkowski actively chooses not to tell him that she was talking to Hera about musicals. Perhaps she doesn't know how to open up to a human subordinate about it. Perhaps she doesn't trust him not to make fun of her. Perhaps she just doesn't have any impulse to talk about her interests with him. Either way, if Minkowski's love of musicals is something which reflects a side of her personality outside of her Commander role, this is a moment where she chooses not to take an opportunity to share that side of herself with Eiffel. This reflects the emotional distance between them three months into the mission, which forms a nice contrast with the next couple of quotes I'm going to talk about.
"Composition. Balance. Harmony.": Episode 54 (The Watchtower)
When Eiffel comes directly face to face with alien life, he discovers that music is the human invention that fascinates the Dear Listeners:
EIFFEL: You haven't figured out music?  BOB: ORDER. DESIGN. TENSION. COMPOSITION. BALANCE. HARMONY.  EIFFEL: (low, to himself) Minkowski's been talking about Sondheim again

I only learned in the course of writing this post that in this moment the Dear Listeners are almost exactly quoting a repeated phrase used throughout Sunday in the Park with George. The titular protagonist lists various combinations of these qualities in multiple songs in reference to his art. In the closing song, the lyrics are "Order. Design. Tension. Composition. Balance. Light. [...] Harmony." It's not only Eiffel's references that the Dear Listeners are incorporating into their speech - they've picked this one up from Minkowski. This also suggests that some element of her appreciation for musicals and the way she talks about them has fed into the Dear Listeners' understanding of the human phenomenon of music. The Dear Listeners aren't just parroting - they understood the quote enough that they left out the word "light", arguably the only quality in that phrase which isn't a big part of music as well as visual art. Eiffel likes music too, but I don't think that this is how he'd talk about his favourite songs.
This is a refrain about finding order and beauty out of the chaos and uncertainty of life, which was also the aspect of Sunday in the Park with George that Minkowski focused on when talking about it in Memoria. It suggests that art/music could be something governed by rules and principles, which is potentially something that appeals both to Minkowski and to the Dear Listeners.
Eiffel's response to this reference is one of those little hints that reminds us that Eiffel and Minkowski have spent a lot of time together and that not all of that time has involved them being at each others' throats or actively in a life-or-death situation. Some of it has just been Minkowski going on about a musical she loves and Eiffel (willingly or not) paying enough attention that he recognises this phrase as a Sondheim quote that Minkowski has talked about. I suppose that this quote might have been in Eiffel's pop-culture-brain anyway, but judging from Eiffel's general tastes and the fact that I don't think Sunday in the Park with George is one of the more commonly known Sondheim musicals among non-musical fans, it seems more likely that this quote is something he only knows because Minkowski has talked about it. 
Eiffel sounds exasperated at the mention, like he's heard Minkowski talk about Sondheim far too much. But I'd argue that this still says something positive about their relationship, when we contrast it with a couple of other moments I've already mentioned. Firstly, when her previous musical theatre ambitions are revealed to Jacobi, Maxwell, and Lovelace in Need to Know, Minkowski seems embarrassed and defensive. Secondly, in the memory from Memoria, she avoids telling Eiffel that she was talking about this same musical. Yet, by the time The Watchtower takes place, Eiffel is sick of hearing Minkowski talk about Sondheim. She doesn't have the same barriers up in sharing her interests with him, even though he doesn't have the same interests. I think this is a demonstration of how comfortable she feels with him. It's a hint at the kind of easy downtime that they've sometimes shared.
"One day more": Episode 61 (Brave New World)
Eiffel recognises another musical reference of Minkowski’s in the finale. As the crew are preparing for their final confrontation with Cutter and co., Minkowski quotes Les MisĂ©rables, mostly to herself - but Eiffel recognises the lyrics and joins in:
EIFFEL: Hey - chin up, soldier. We're almost through. Just one more day, and then we're done.  MINKOWSKI: Yeah, one more day. (more to herself) The time is now, the place is here - one day more.  EIFFEL: - one day more.  They both stop, dead in their tracks. MINKOWSKI: Did you just - ?  EIFFEL: Was that what I - ?  They look at each other: No way. And BURST INTO LAUGHTER.  EIFFEL: Man... this is really it, huh? The end of everything. 
It feels really important that Minkowski and Eiffel share this moment of togetherness before she tries to send him back to Earth and before the rest of the action goes down. I think there’s some nice symbolism about them finding a way to communicate that they both understand. Making references is Eiffel's thing, and musicals are Minkowski's thing, so this is a synthesis of their two approaches. Again, there's a contrast with Minkowski's previous unwillingness to share her musical theatre passions with Eiffel (at least without the mitigating circumstances of a mandatory talent show and some kind of intoxicating substance).
I talked about the significance of the fact that they reference this particular musical in this post from ages ago. I don't think it's too much of a spoiler for Les Misérables to say that the revolution that the song One Day More is building up to does not end well for the revolutionaries. When Eiffel says "Just one more day, and then we're done", it encompasses both the possibility that the crew will escape to travel back to Earth and the possibility that they will all die. Minkowski's reference to a famously tragic musical suggests that it's the latter possibility that's at the forefront of her mind (right before she tries to send Eiffel away from the danger). But Les Misérables is also a story about people standing together in solidarity against powerful oppressive forces, which gives particular resonance to the way that this reference brings Eiffel and Minkowski together in a moment of being completely on the same wavelength as they prepare to fight Cutter and Pryce's plan.
When they laugh here, it's not about the 'hilariousness' of Minkowski's interest in musicals, it's about their unexpected unison - Eiffel's recognition of Minkowski's reference and Minkowski's surprise at the fact he joined in. It's a laugh of togetherness, of shared understanding, of friendship. It's a moment of lightness in dark times. And that moment is provided by Minkowski's pop culture interests, not Eiffel's. In spite of all they've been through, she's not lost that part of herself, and in fact, she's more open about it, at least to Eiffel.
I'll finish by highlighting what Eiffel says when he's trying to get into character to impersonate Minkowski so he can turn the Sol around:
EIFFEL: Umm... yes, this is Lieutenant Commander Renée Minkowski. I'm... uh... well I sure love schedules, and, uh, musicals. And that man, who I married

I just think this is a nice example of Eiffel not defining Minkowski solely by her professional Commander role. Sure, she likes schedules (probably in a personal as well a professional capacity to be fair), but she also loves musicals, and her husband. It is a fairly reductive overview of her as a person, but it feels reductive in a fond way, like these things are part of Minkowski's brand to Eiffel in a way that he might affectionately tease her about. (Credit to @commsroom for this thought.) His view of Minkowski has come a long way from "our resident Statsi agent" or even just "you must have some hobbies other than making trains run on time." He doesn't see any contradiction or inherent humour in Lieutenant Commander Renée Minkowski's appreciation of musicals.
Conclusion
Minkowski's love of musical theatre is used to deepen her characterisation and is one of the ways in which we gradually begin to see her complexity beyond the strict Commander archetype. The degree to which she is prepared to share this interest at various points is used to illustrate the nature of her relationships with other characters: a general unwillingness to show a less serious side of herself; a complicated potential shared interest with Hera; and the growing understanding between her and Eiffel.
If you read this whole thing, well done / thank you 😄 It wasn't meant to be this long - it just happened
 Feel free to share your thoughts!
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mysticalcats · 6 months ago
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ooh okay I want to hear one thing you think about skimble!!! It can be a headcanon or a little stage detail or whatever! Tell me about your guy :D
THANK YOU FOR ASKING ABOUT MY GUY YOU'RE SO NICEEE
i accidentally wrote so much it's kind of embarrassing so let me just say a little detail i like which is this lil thing skimble does in 1998 during theee "they all could reflect it was very nice" line i think??? not really a small detail but i always smile when i see it
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ough he's just so happy... (this gif is from @noriseyebrow btw!)
okay i didn't want this to be so long for people who like. do not care lol so i just put it under the cut because im not even sure how coherent this is but bear with me while i rant for a sec
something that's been on my mind lately is ross finnie as skimble singing the "it was very pleasant when they found their little den" part.. this goes for both the 2002 and the 2015 productions. because they're like. so different. and i love them both so very much!! i really like 2002's because he sounds so sweet and like. his voice is very happy in the calmest way possible yknow. and i really like how he talks. oh and i especially like after the cats say "weak or strong?" and he says "oh, alright!" i just think it's so cute and it's a very little detail but you know. i get hung up on tiny details about my fav guy. ALSO i really like how he says "and" in the "you could make it dark or bright, and! a button you can turn to make a breeze" like he just remembered it and he's excited to say it
AND THE 2015 PRODUCTION. HE'S SO LOUD AND EXCITED AND IT'S JUST. he's just so fucking excited and how loud he gets because he's just so hyped to talk about trains that he can't control his voice and he's yelling and it's just!!! it makes me crazy. especially in the "you could make it dark or bright!", "and a funny little basin you're supposed to wash your face in!", and "then the guard looked in politely and would ask you very brightly, 'WOULD YOU LIKE YOUR MORNING TEA?'" and then the other cats say "weak or strong" and it kind of sounds like he's just yelling incomprehensibly for a second after they say that, like he's so excited he's just gotta scream. could just be me imagining it though
and these two versions of the song are so so different but they both communicate his character so well i feel!! i love you ross finnie you understood skimble like no one else
here's the clip of the two songs btw!
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winter-spark · 5 months ago
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Do you guys ever think about the amount of pressure and how draining it must be to have been Orange growing up?
No no like seriously think about it, think about it.
When everyone found out that Citron would be next in line for the throne, Orange was dragged into the spotlight with him. It had to have been from the jump that people who didn't want Citron, the son of a commoner, as King latched onto Orange.
"Orange would be a better fit." "Orange should be king." "Why the son of a commoner when the next son isn't one?"
Like Orange probably heard stuff like that all throughout his life, that's a lot. To immediately be put in a box as a better fit for ruler, and you know it was a lot of pressure because he then dedicated his life to proving that point. He had to be better than his hard-working, calculative, already training/set-to-be-the-King older brother, when from the get-go people preferred him.
Sure Citron worked to win over the public's opinion but don't you think that hurt more? So many thought you'd be a better fit and now they're saying your brother is a good fit, that they're happy and satisfied with that? What? Was your hard work not good enough? Were you somehow worse than him? Did you dissatisfy the people?
Orange grew up feeling in constant comparison to Citron. Feeling in the eye of the people. Knowing that if anything happened to lead to Citron not being King, he was next up. And even with the number of people who liked Citron, there were still people who thought Orange should be King instead, including extremists, one of which worked for Orange directly for who knows how long. He couldn't relax, he couldn't quit, he didn't have the room to.
They tell us that Citron couldn't get along with his brothers because the competition for the crown but we don't get to see it from Orange and Navel's perspective much. We know they were curious enough about Citron that they'd copy some things he did, such as reading one of his favorite books. But let's not forget they had a negative takeaway from that book, they didn't get it. Their world, though similar to Citron's, has colored their lenses darker than his, to where they couldn't see the positive over the parts that didn't make sense to them, over the negative. Also, they see Citron as lucky, that he was born under a lucky star. While Citron was the one to say they then must've been born under unlucky stars, they already were somewhat thinking that to point out how lucky Citron is. After all, they had to have been comparing his luck to something to conclude he was lucky.
Being Orange was being bitter and cold and working hard to accomplish a goal. A goal many thought you were suited for, to the point that you believed it yourself, that you had to prove it to your father-- to everyone, that you had to be ready if it ever came to pass. And that's what he did.
He worked hard, and plotted, and schemed, and grew so desperate. And it wasn't even because he hated Citron. Because he doesn't hate Citron. Orange resents Citron, he thinks it should've been him instead, he thinks he needs to prove himself better than Citron, he thinks Citron is in his way. But he doesn't hate him. If he hated him he wouldn't read his favorite book to try and get that bit of understanding. If he hated him he wouldn't care if Citron died, so long as he got the throne. But he did read that book, and he did care that Citron lived, making it clear that he thought just kidnapping him was suffice. So yea, Orange didn't do all of that out of hatred for Citron, but moreso out of (self)obligation, expectation and determination.
It was hard in his earliest years for him not to desire the crown, the comments against Citron likely initially felt somewhat as a compliment. So of course, it became something more something he just had to make tangible. People believed he could, he believed he could, he just had to get there. He'd been convinced from a young age that this was what he wanted. And maybe he really did. But it wasn't easy and all his hard work never seemed to come to fruition.
He worked hard and people grew to like Citron as next in line. He studies to be prince, was days away from his coronation, and Citron shows up for the crown. Orange kidnaps his brother, (says no on the killing of him) to try a last ditch effort of getting the crown because if Citron was coronated he wouldn't get any other chances. But the one person who was supposed to be on his side and listen to him directly, didn't and everything went up in flames, which he didn't want, and he's been stripped of the chances to become king(because he did set up basically an attempted hit on his brother). And his reputation was completely tarnished, being blamed for things he didn't do, such as breaking the translation device.
Of course, Orange's actions are his own and of course he has to make up for the harm he's caused and of course people's view of him was gonna change. But gosh it's so exhausting being Orange, working your whole life for the affection, respect and approval of the people, of your father, and for it all to turn to dust. All that hard work down the drain.
You think he ever wished he was Tangerine? Blissfully out of the race for Crown, able to have time without people looking closely at your actions in comparison to Citron's, able to breathe?
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shannonsketches · 2 months ago
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something something foils moving in opposite directions Goku's always happy to seek and fight stronger opponents because he spent most of his life being the strongest guy in the room and Vegeta wants to be the strongest/is always exhausted to find stronger opponents because he spent most of his life having to navigate his survival around the whims of the strongest guy in the universe room and so Goku has a foundation of safety and stability and so spends his time craving challenge and adventure and Vegeta has a foundation of challenge and adventure and spends his time craving safety and stability and the overlaid section of their venn diagram is that the only way they know how acquire and maintain those things is through battle
#thank you this has been the laziest media analysis post of my career#dbtag#media analysis#something something a game to goku is a threat to vegeta etc#there's a pinned thought here about how Vegeta also didn't learn about the dragon balls until he was ?? 30?? and so all loss is permanent#and goku has been familiar since he was ~12 and hasn't faced a permanent consequence since he was 10 years old and even then he got closure#sometimes I think about how Vegeta saw Trunks die and how Krillin was mad at him for reacting since they could fix it with the dragon balls#but Vegeta has very limited experience with the dragon so to him in that moment that was permanent and Trunks was Dead. Forever.#And we talked before in a 2am post about Vegeta having never experienced grief born of love and I stand by it because his feelings then wer#still very new and very odd and not something he'd accepted until that moment so it was raw power but not as powerful as it could've been#all this to say in my heart of hearts I think Vegeta deserves to retire at the end of super (if super continues) -- not as a warrior#but as an infantryman. he's a prince and now he's got his domain and his family and his planet to look after and I think he deserves#to go home and stay home and help piccolo bully gohan into training more often when goku inevitably leaves to hop the multiverse#geets wanted to take a sabbatical when Bulla was born but didn't get the chance because Freeza coming back freaked him out too much#but whether freeza gets a redemption arc or gets defeated -- Granolah's arc seemed to shift his perspective on being the strongest#and I just grips fist I just think it would be a really nice full circle for Vegeta to inherit his throne in a way he never expected and#finally get his kingdom to look after and protect in the way that he was looking forward to being king of his own planet all those years ag#Goku's got Broly and Jiren and Hit and all the others to keep him busy and happy now -- and if Freeza gets a redemption arc he'll probably#continue playing slap-ass with Goku for the rest of his life -- and Vegeta's got Gohan and Piccolo and Goten and Trunks#I just think them getting a nice bittersweet 'This is where we part ways' would be really nice for both of them because !!#They couldn't have done this without each other. They couldn't have known this kind of life was possible without each other.#So they swap lots and live happier than they ever imagined they could be#especially since Vegeta has proved to himself that he can close any gap Goku creates in progress that's not a concern anymore#And obvs the door's always open!! There's no point closing it Vegeta's tried the locks they don't work on Goku#anyway here's me putting the whole essay in the tags again#this isn't an essay as much as it is stream of consciousness tag blogging#anyway i'm too lazy to write fic or draw comics so we get ramblings instead
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diredeliverance · 7 months ago
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Periodically think about these descriptions of Bane from 3e Faiths and Pantheons that feel distinctly like elements of Gortash's look in the game. I have to imagine that this is intentional, but it does make it stand out that Bane's avatar is a young man. It feels like an aspect of self-styling that's endured from a much younger age and is reaching its limit, becoming more and more worn out... there's something a little pathetic about that feeling of clinging, isn't there? Evoking the image of this boy-god at such an age? I said the mid life crisis thing last week as a joke, but ahaha, perhaps it's really not. The gap between an aging human with limited time and pristine, unchanging divinity... I find it interesting. Obviously you have two older men in the canon Chosen, but Ketheric unquestionably wears his age with the dignity of a proud patriarch. He dresses as himself, not in the image of a youthful avatar. Perhaps I simply like the contrast evoked by reading this as a form of insecurity or a symbol of power once-potent wearing ever thinner as it reaches its limits.
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oidheadh-con-culainn · 9 months ago
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i'm sorry i'm not being fun enough on my personal blog which is the only place on the internet i get to just be a person and not have to be professional because it's the only place my colleagues and employers don't follow me but also i'm not sorry because sometimes being grumpy is part of being human and i'm so goddamn tired of having to perform perfection on the internet
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meiloorunsmoothie · 4 months ago
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how did you first get into Jeremy Jordan
good question—and one i very recently asked myself when the inevitable "how did i become this person" reflection happened đŸ«Ł.
i think there were many different factors (most of them not that good) that caused me to dive into obsessive mode so hard (and so quickly)—and it's definitely a "i see it now, but i couldn't back then" kind of situation. however, i'll spare you from those details XD.
the simple story is that, similar to you, i watched tangled the series and instantly fell in love with varian.
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i love him
funnily enough, varian was the reason i started watching the show to begin with (coupled with the fact that i love tangled, and rapunzel, and eugene, and pascal, and max, and- 😆). i actually listened to the tts songs before watching the show đŸ«Ł because my sister had gotten hooked on it years before. however, i only listened to the songs with mandy moore and zachary levi đŸ«ŁđŸ«Ł (cause i was like "who are these other random people, i want rapunzel and eugene"). then one day i listened to "through it all," in which varian has one line (plus an "eh" which i love now, but couldn't tell was him when i first listened XD)—and i was instantly just like: who's that.
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have i listened to this one line on loop? you bet.
so i started watching the show—and loved varian from episode one—so naturally, i decide to look up the voice actor. it was jeremy....surprise. except...i didn't actually become obsessed right then. if anything, i was a little weirded out that this tiny boy was voiced by a 30-something year old man 😂 (but it's voice acting, so i was just like: wow, he did a great job đŸ€©...i'm going to go resume loving varian).
okay and then he sang. i knew he was good from his one line in "through it all", but wOW. adfasjkjaskfjd, on repeat forever and ever.
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yes he was
that's not when i became (jeremy) obsessed either XD.
okay...and then a bunch of life stuff/circumstances kind of collided, and let's just say that i was feeling extremely lonely while also struggling with grief. i think there was about a two week period of this before i started actually bouncing back, and i had just reached the end of s1. now tts was doing a good job with bringing much needed happiness in my life, but...s2 had a very noticeable varian-shaped hole in it 😒.
that's when i turned to jeremy jordan youtube. it started off (the first hour) pretty mild—just some of his disney medleys, or the greatest showman video, or just the ones with millions of views—but it very quickly turned into a full out jeremy jordan youtube spiralâ„ąïž XD.
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i must put this in your face again
i think in part, i latched on so quickly because jeremy and i are actually very similar people in general. i think at the point of extreme change that i was in at the time, it was just nice to "know" someone who was like me—and it definitely helped that there was easy access to extensive jj content. on a slightly different note, this is absolutely the reasoning behind the fact that if i had a chance to see jeremy live, i would choose one of his concerts over, say, gatsby—i am obsessed with jeremy jordan as jeremy jordan XD (hello akp).
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literally me (i grew up in california by the way XD)
anyways, fast forward ~3 months, and i joined tumblr 😆...and we all know what happened after that. honestly, not a bad decision in my mind (at least so far), despite being very anti-social media my whole life. i've gotten to chat and obsessively geek out with so many great people, and i'm just so grateful for that 💕.
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i've still only watched s1 of supergirl...and many youtube clips
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essektheylyss · 1 year ago
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I put on the Empire Sibling Mighty Vibes for the first time in a while in honor of the first day of class and can we please have more Mighty Vibes. I'm begging. I love them so much.
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batsplat · 5 months ago
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sometimes casey throws a like on posts about valentino's wins on four wheels, got me wondering how he really feels about vale's retirement life. back in the twilight of vale's career, casey was kinda sad seeing vale content with just hitting top five. but end of last year, he said he's happy for vale's new life vibe. (https://www.tumblr.com/kwisatzworld/735598710184165376/casey-stoner-talks-about-valentino-rossi-in-an)
but man, they're like poles... casey's rebuilding his storm-hit home on the gold coast, swinging golf clubs. meanwhile, valentino's still going full throttle—aside from a vacay in ibiza, dude's been all over the map this year with car races, bike races, tests, and coaching at his academy.
I'm gonna be honest, I have zero awareness of what any of these men do on social media... don't really keep up with them post-retirement in general unless they're literally at the races, giving interviews about their careers and whatnot. so whenever someone on here mentions something like this it's very... I didn't know that but it sure is interesting!! very sweet of casey lol (also link to the gifs)
though, quick note, I wouldn't say valentino was content back in the day with just being in the top five (or lower) - it's just the idea of stopping for a long time felt worse than carrying on. from that same giornale interview, -
And what is it like to live with the idea of ​​leaving? "It's difficult to accept. I didn't give up until the end. But you understand that at forty you no longer have those homicidal instincts that you had when you were twenty-five. But it was hard. At a certain point in my career, about ten years ago, I asked myself: do I stop when I'm on the crest of a wave and retire as a world champion, or do I race until I can't stand it anymore?" Answer? "I race until I can't stand it anymore. And so I did."
it's something he had to decide for himself... of course, both marc and casey have said something along the lines of how they could never have done that themselves, how for them it's only worth it if they're winning. and, y'know, there is something about that for valentino... for all that obviously he is obsessed with winning and desperately wants to do so... he really doesn't just thrive in a fight - he needs it. and it's so interesting, in a way, when you think about just how early in his career he was flirting with the idea of walking away... and then think about how long he ended up sticking around. sure, he was always pretty clear that he would have just done something else racing-related like f1 rather than retire, but still! and in a way, it's probably the fact that he started losing that made him so determined to stick around... the malaise was at its strongest whenever he was winning, or rather, winning too easily... a motogp without valentino might have made it likelier that casey would stick around for longer, whereas a motogp with casey made it less likely that valentino would leave
but yes, casey did say motogp would be better with valentino close to the top:
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casey's opinions on what counts as 'good racing' are a whole other thing I'm not going to get into right now, but, I don't know! it's fun! it's fun that casey looked at the 2013-18 period and then what came after that and went 'yeah it'd be better if valentino were involved in this'! "battling it out with these guys" - not even casey stoner is immune to the good old fashioned joys of watching valentino getting himself involved in a dogfight! very compelling of him. I don't think it's just lip service either, not least since it's not like casey is massively inclined to shoot random compliments in valentino's direction (yes, even during valentino's swansong casey did have some rather less friendly hot takes he needed to get off his chest). and... y'know, before the feud really got going casey did talk about how much he'd enjoyed watching valentino, went out with his mates to observe valentino in all his sessions and all that... given you're generally not watching valentino oohing and aahing about him hooking together a quali lap, he must have also enjoyed watching valentino race! happens to the best of us I fear
a persistent problem for a lot of valentino's rivals is how closely associated valentino has become with the very idea of motogp, which, y'know, is the thing they've dedicated their entire lives to. now, for casey this is particularly gnarly and complicated and painful because he has a severely strained relationship with the whole sport, in some ways that come back to valentino and in some ways that go beyond him. and post-retirement, it's not like casey has completely eschewed that active connection to the sport - he was a test rider, he wanted to race again in 2015 as a replacement for dani, he's worked as a rider coach. so again *wiggles hand* complicated. fundamentally though, yes, two very different outlooks. valentino was desperate to race in motogp until he couldn't any more. whereas casey? he's not even missed the racing itself:
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can you imagine something more foreign to valentino than this... who loves nothing more than the thrill of the hunt, of the chase, of the kill... that is not a man who was showing up every weekend for the qualifying sessions. it's a way in which they could not be more different - and of course that's further reflected in what they've chosen to do with their time since retirement. valentino is so eternally restless, casey needed to ground himself again. valentino will not stop racing for as long as is physically possible, whereas casey is spending his days fishing... or swinging golf clubs apparently. wait a minute, you say his house was destroyed? by a tornado? ah
anyhow, that's the bit I love about them (not the tornado bit)... how they're both extremely similar and extremely different at the same time - that's the kind of tension through which the narrative juices flow... they're similar in ways you kind of have to be if you want to be very good at a sport, and very good in that sport specifically. in their commitment, their will, their passion for what they do. their competitive instincts, their need to win. how interested they are in preserving the 'soul' of their sport, how they were both firmly on the anti-electronics train for years and years... valentino being told about casey's comments in 2013 pressers and being like 'yeah I'm with him on this'... casey saying in 2018 that valentino is, and I quote, "like me: if it weren't for all these electronics that manage the bike, if the power was controlled only by the rider's right wrist, rossi would still be number one on the track". by the way, and this has absolutely zero relevance to this post, I do need to bring up this comment from the same interview because it makes me laugh:
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so real, casey. I wanted drama too. anyway, that comment casey made about the 'stunning blood red' ducati being contaminated by luminous yellow or whatever - obviously in context it was anti-valentino, but it was also revealing that this is even something he cares about because he loves this sport... he wants it to remain true to itself... he regrets not having had the chance to ride the 500cc bikes that valentino was the last guy to be able to win a title on, which obviously valentino is also insanely proud of. there's little things that stand out when you cross-read their autobiographies - like for instance the deep preoccupation with the 'bike or rider' question, partly because they'd both been accused of owing their achievements to something else other than their actual ability (and of course, because they're funny like that, they do both absolutely do this to each other) (also to some extent literally every champion gets put through this, they sure do have a lot of opinions about it though). their thoughts on the importance of being honest to yourself and being honest about what you owe your success to... about not deluding yourself, of not blaming the bike when you are the one to make an error... there's plenty of interesting overlap in what they write y'know
they are both incredibly capable of holding grudges, they are both petty to a fault and will remember any offence you committed even if it was about seven years ago (genuinely casey might be even worse on this metric). and they use this to motivate themselves... they are both so so determined to prove people wrong. if they think you've wronged them, they openly admit that they use that as fuel to spur themselves on. it's the power of spite - yamaha rejected casey so he wanted to show them, nobody thought valentino could make the yamaha switch work so he wanted to rub it in honda's faces. they love to get even. they can be quite suspicious of others to the point of paranoia; there's a world in which they combine their powers to be extremely accomplished conspiracy theorists. they both have a temper - it's easier to get casey angry, but valentino is downright vicious when effectively provoked. plus, and this bit cannot be stressed enough, they are both insane. different flavours of insane, but, still, insane. if you spend enough time thinking about laguna 2008, this kind of becomes one of the key takeaways - because, okay, valentino's riding was. eh. but casey's riding? also very! eh! valentino started it but casey joined in! casey always talked about how much that race changed for him, how it taught him to be more selfish, to just race for himself... and even if it made him feel bad, the thing about casey is that he was willing to do that
but at the same time, of course they're both very different, in all the deeply obvious ways. their respective relationships to publicity, to media, to fame - valentino does struggle with it, does hate it a lot of the time, but at the end of the day he still shines in the spotlight and is an incredibly effective communicator. he's willing to play the game a lot more than casey is... although casey can play it too, if in a different way, when valentino forces him into it. casey's still willing to play it now, which is why you hear him constantly offering his commentary on that rivalry - he's selling a story, a narrative that he may genuinely believe in but that also is of course supposed to flatter him. at the end of the day, however, casey doesn't quite get why all of this has to be such a big part of the sport, why it's necessary to even have anything apart from the racing... whereas valentino has always understood why all the other stuff exists and why it's worth engaging with the public-facing side of the sport, even when he hasn't liked it
valentino loves the sport in its entirety, immediately embraced the entire circus of the paddock and found it endlessly exciting and exhilarating from the very first moment, whereas casey has often wished he could escape all parts of the sport that aren't the racing itself. valentino is someone who has spoken at length about the bonds of friendship with his team and how important they are to him, whereas casey is a man who has said his only friend in the paddock is his wife. the very strong but different connections they both have to their place of origin, and how meaningful those are to both of them, how important it is to their sense of identity... somewhere they'll always come back to. and of course there's a ruthlessness to valentino that is mostly alien to casey, if not entirely. valentino relishes the battle, whereas casey would prefer to avoid it. there are things valentino is ready to do, lines he's ready to cross, where casey doesn't even understand why you would do any of that. valentino loves having... if not an enemy, then certainly a target - and while casey is hardly a stranger to the motivating power of spite, he is more or less happy to complete his track times on an empty bit of asphalt. relatedly, he also wishes to believe that he is completely immune to any kind of psychological tactics... and sometimes he's more right than he's given credit for and sometimes he's wrong. casey is a lot more preoccupied with this rivalry than valentino is - and of course it has a far more defining role within his career than vice versa. casey walked away so much sooner than valentino did because he had grown estranged from the sport he had so loved. whereas valentino never stopped loving it, even when it hurt him, even when it could have killed him... and he never will stop loving it
this post is going to take a bit of a left field turn, sorry. but there's just something about. idk. athletes trapped in a rivalry that's so intense and so meaningful for at least one half, but that's also so about the kind of... gulf between them, the mutual lack of comprehension, where it feels like the divide is so big it might be unbridgeable... anyway, it always makes me think of a specific bit of andre agassi's autobiography where he talks about his rivalry with pete sampras. so here:
Walking up to the gate, who should I see but Pete. As always, Pete. He looks as if he's done nothing for the last month but practise, and when he wasn't practising, he was lying on a cot in a bare cell, thinking about beating me. He's rested, focused, wholly undistracted. I've always thought the differences between Pete and me were overblown by sportswriters. It seemed too convenient, too important for fans, and Nike, and the game, that Pete and I be polar opposites, the Yankees and Red Sox of tennis. The game's best server versus its best returner. The diffident Californian versus the brash Las Vegan. It all seemed like horseshit. Or, to use Pete's favorite word, nonsense. But at this moment, making small talk at the gate, the gap between us appears genuinely, frighteningly wide, like the gap between good and bad. I've often told Brad that tennis plays too big a part in Pete's life, and not a big enough part in mine, but Pete seems to have the proportions about right. Tennis is his job, and he does it with brio and dedication, while all my talk of maintaining a life outside tennis seems like just that - talk. Just a pretty way of rationalizing all my distractions. For the first time since I've known him - including the times he's beaten my brains out - I envy Pete's dullness. I wish I could emulate his spectacular lack of inspiration, and his peculiar lack of need for inspiration.
obviously the specific details of the rivalry are very different, and the two rivalries don't map neatly onto each other at all. but I don't know, it's always felt a good way of summing up that! disconnect!! the whole world might want you to be distinct from your rival for narrative purposes and you're aware of how artificial the whole thing is... but sometimes it can still be true... casey's always talking about how he never got obsessed with his rivals, how he always treated them all the same, how it was all just externally imposed onto him... which, okay, we could perhaps question the supposed lack of obsession, but it still comes back to how you don't want it to just be about you and that other guy. always you and them, them and you - and maybe you can't actually escape it because it's the truth... it's your legacy, it's fundamentally interwoven into the fabric of your career, it's why you will never truly free yourself from that narrative. "the gap between us appears genuinely, frighteningly wide, like the gap between good and bad"... you're bound together in your shared passion for this sport, but your biggest rival is also somebody who you feel like you'll never truly understand
casey may feel alienated from valentino and in doing so feel alienated from the very sport itself. whereas for valentino, casey was just what he needed. having casey was something motivating, something exciting for valentino - however annoying he found that man, he always needs something to inspire him and for a while there that something was casey. it's a rivalry that wore away at casey while at the same time it lit a fire within valentino... the 'cordial' mutual hatred they exhibited towards each other, wrapped up in this sense of mutual estrangement, it weighed more heavily on one of them than it did on the other... all these similarities between the two characters that exist alongside the violence of the contrast between them. that underlying and inescapable sense of alienation. on some level, they were always perfectly clear on who the other man was when they were fighting each other - and tailored their approach to the rivalry accordingly. but knowing doesn't quite equal empathy, it's not the same as understanding, and the distance between the pair of them inevitably remained. hey, maybe a dinner will fix it, maybe casey can explain where he was coming from to valentino and get the chance to interrogate valentino on the same. because that's what casey's expressing there, right, when he's talking about telling valentino his 'challenges' from his 'point of view'... it's not even as much about understanding as much as it is about being understood. it's about getting valentino to comprehend casey's side of things. maybe even getting valentino to care. of course, more likely than not, the dinner hasn't happened and will never happen. more likely than not, that gap will remain unbridgeable. perhaps it's too much to ask for, to ever truly know your foil. perhaps it's even more impossible to expect to be known
#brr brr#casey stoner#//#cs27#i'm sorry i think this wasn't actually really a response to the ask i got. the ask button is more like press here and get a rant#i just don't have time to really write a proper well-sourced casey essay because again i'd need to do laguna first#but i do always have thoughts about them. anyway. it's nice casey likes the old man's dumb car racing#i do think casey might have complicated feelings about the post retirement activities because he has complicated feelings about vale....#but also kinda. again not necessarily HATING valentino As A Guy... at a certain point he's sort of separated that out in his head I reckon#the agassi stoner comparison is so incredibly niche territory because instinctively you'd think it's the other way round but i'm telling u#“the only respite is fantasizing about retirement” “I hate tennis more than ever - but I hate myself more”#“apparently he doesn't find tennis as lonely as I do”#“I look up at the sky and fantasize about flying away. since I can't fly away at least this tennis ball can fly away. be free little ball”#obviously “I envy pete's dullness” very much goes the other way lmaoooooo still one of my all time fave sports autobiography lines#'agassi stoner comparison is so incredibly niche territory' I say as if the lads are constantly delving into the sampras stoner parallels#really reinventing the parallels to nineties tennis rivalries market here adding my own spin to this well established genre#batsplat responds#heretic tag
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