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dontbotherwiththepronunciation · 2 years ago

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I fantasise about Ramsay's death a lot

I think Ramsay will be killed at some point during ASOIAF but I've been wondering how and what exactly we could get for the narrative of certain characters depending on the different outcomes and I am insomniac so I want to write something more or less useful so I can sleep or at least avoid intrusive thoughts.

So, here is a poll with possible outcomes for Ramsay's death, some of them I've read in meta posts, others are simply stuff I thought could be thematically coherent. Under the read more I added my own preferences because I'm feeling bold. You don't have to read those, but I would love it if you tell me some of yours. And you can tell me all you want about that? Is your answer motivated simply for shipping reasons? Simply for revenge? Do you think it will actually happen? I just like reading other people's thoughts.

My Preferences:

1. Killed off-screen by an unnamed lowborn

My personal favourite. I don't think Ramsay will get an off-screen death scene with an "irrelevant" character and I understand why but until it happens I get to fantasise and while I think for many this would be considered unsatisfying or anti-climactic, to me it would feel thematically coherent and beautiful.

Ramsay Bolton, the living nightmare, a monster from hell, killed by some rando. Someone who wouldn't make it down in history, someone who would be forgotten, someone who would be seen as disposable and irrelevant.

Through this we could have what is, in my opinion, the biggest offence ever directed at Ramsay AND a really sad and harrowing exploration of Theon and Jeyne's feelings on the matter.

Surprisingly, I was never feeling frightened by Euron as I read AFFC, the fear only settled when I read Aeron's preview chapter for TWOW. I was terrified (/pos) how could I not be? The eyes through which I witness all are tainted by terror during that chapter.

With Ramsay the more you think about how our perception of him is one conditioned by Theon's powerlessness, the less mighty he actually becomes. He is not a monster, he is a human like everyone else, he can be killed like everyone else and the concept of knocking him down from this idea he has built around himself, as a creature one should be frightened of, to have him become so irrelevant to the text that we don't even get to witness his death nor know anything about the killer because there is nothing that could be interesting or worthy of mention about that killer is wonderful to me. It makes Ramsay irrelevant and unworthy of mention.

And yet, I also think it would be very tragic for Theon without inflicting any sort of pain on him. Through ADWD he keeps fantasising about killing Ramsay and every single time he keeps himself from actually doing it because at this point Ramsay isn't a person for Theon, he is an omnipotent entity that builds and destroys. So, if he were to find out that Ramsay was easily subdued by someone with no name, no house, no military power, a no one, that could destroy his self esteem. It could lead into even more feelings of guilt and shame while ultimately proving that Ramsay isn't really all that.

I think people (me) often believe in what they like to believe and I would like to believe this is an actual possibility even if the more conscious side of my brain is thinking "Wtf are you on? GRRM is not gonna do that. Do you think he is stupid enough to be this anti-climactic about something everyone is eagerly waiting for since a decade? You think he wants to have people saying show!Ramsay's death was better than book!Ramsay's?" So, yeah I don't believe this will actually happen, I would love it if it did, it would be very meaningful to me, but I have no expectations and I understand how this is probably not something most people would enjoy.

2. Fed to his dogs by Barbrey

All the reasons I want him to be eaten by his gos (listed down in 4.) + my anti-vaxxer, conspiracy theorist, Karen Queen Barbrey Dustin.

I have a horribly unpopular opinion about Ramsay's dogs that would get me cancelled for animal cruelty (/hj) and I have a lot of very personal feelings about this woman.

If she is supposed to be a woman who knows how to nurse a grievance (hot) then why would she be alright with letting the boy she thinks killed her surrogate son become Lord of Winterfell or even King in the North? She openly spits on Ramsay (hot) and even defies him through her conversations with Theon. The idea of her being a conspirator among the Manderlys and the Glovers isn't something I've been bought into yet because I still believe in her distaste for the Starks™ being real (hot), but I can't imagine she would feel any more tranquility at the idea of Ramsay turning into her liege lord, if anything I think she would be terrified because HAVE YOU NOT HEARD OF WHAT HAPPENED TO THE LAST NORTHERN AGEING WIDOW WHO RULED ON HER OWN WITH LANDS TO HER CLAIM AND NO APPARENT HEIRS????

"Me," said Ramsay. "Ramsay of House Bolton, Lord of the Hornwood, heir to the Dreadfort.

To me, that sounds like the vague reminder of a threat.

We have also seen a few moments in which she not only makes her disdain for him public, but also defies him! Prohibiting him from entering into Barrow Hall, treating Theon with something similar to dignity (I know it's only mildly implied but if we ever get confirmation on her being the one who gave him the cloak he wears during A Ghost in Winterfell I will scream and cry ) and she also constantly refers to him as "Bastard" although he has been legitimised)

Also, while I believe she probably knows "Arya Bolton née Stark" is a fake, I doubt she knows it's Jeyne Poole and I also doubt she didn't feel at least some guilt over handing her to Ramsay.

When Jeyne is asking Theon to escape with her she mentions "They said he hurt you." Who said that? Who is they? Could Barb be one of them? Was she warning her? I think it's possible, but I know this is only me assuming things. I have no evidence for anything.

There would also be a lot of irony built around that considering Ramsay's comment on Reek |||:

"If I cut off her teats and feed them to my girls, will she abide me then?"

In a sense I also really love the idea of Ramsay's bones finding themselves in kennels (something Barb is already planning on doing to Ned's (hot)). If both of them find their resting place among the dogs, oh I would feel so much.

Before anyone starts believing I think Ned is as horrible as Ramsay, no I don't. Ned is honourable and just at his best and hypocritical and self-righteous at his worst. Ramsay is himself at his worst and Reek at his best.

The reason I would enjoy this wouldn't be out of thinking that Ned "deserves" that, it would be because Ned and Ramsay are the two people who have hurt this woman the most and also the two people who have deprived Theon of his designated life the most.

3. Public execution by a non-Northerner leader

This is the one I find the most probable to be honest.

Westeros' feudalism seems to be better for the common folk after the Targaryen conquest than they were prior to it. I really doubt GRRM will be willing to dissolve them and send them even further back into an even more inequalitarian feudalism. By having an outsider bring the Northerners their "justice" it would be easier to get them to wilfully decide to reintegrate themselves into the Seven Kingdoms, which is where the Davos-Rickon-Stannis plot will apparently go.

Stannis is already waiting for the battle of Winterfell and I have no idea whether he will win or not, but I think as of now killing the bastard is on his priority list. There is a possibility that he might not kill him immediately but just keeps him captive, and that could be very very fun. While I wouldn't want Theon & Ramsay to have to interact again, I understand how appealing this could be for so many of us. I don't really have anything against this, I just like the other two options mentioned above more.

Asha would be the only case I can think of in this option that could be motivated by more than political plotting or a sense of justice, but also because of personal feelings regarding Theon's trauma. If it were to happen, I doubt it would be a proper execution though, I can see this happening more on the battlefield. I think there could be some beauty in Ramsay "I-rape-girls-for-fun" Snow to find his demise at Asha and her suckling babe, a warrior woman who is also the sister of the man he has been humiliating (to say the least) for the past year. There could be some poetic justice in that. Politically it could also be fun to see the Northerners being confronted by having the Ironborn retaking Winterfell for them and the way their perception of the Iron Islanders could change because of it could be fun and maybe serve as a mirror to the way Asha & Aly have been developing mutual respect for each other. Anyway, here you can find art depicting her & Ramsay as David & Goliath and I love it.

Thematically I would love it if Daenerys would somehow manage to teleport to Winterfell and kill him and be confronted by two uncommon characters that share some similitudes to her past as a child of war & child bride and her actual cause (you can read about those similitudes in this post and this post), but I'm not delusional and I doubt Daenerys will reach the North before Ramsay has been killed so I don't believe it's very probable for them to meet. This is just me being self-indulgent because of the childish wish of wanting my favourite POV characters to interact.

4. Eaten by his dogs our of their own will

As said, I have that one opinion about his dogs and this could go well with it. A taste of his own medicine. Revenge from the deceased. Dog eats dog. Poetic in a sense; The spirits of the women he has raped and hunted and made to be reborn in the bodies of the weapons used against them to take part in the process of making other innocent women join them, finally break free and take revenge against their murderer.

Pretty much the same reasons as to why I like Barbrey feeding him to his dogs, but now there is something more mystique about it. Theon often refers to them as good dogs and it seems like their kennel master Ben Bones also feels fondness for them. Both of them consider the master to be the true monster there, and yet these are still no gentle creatures.

5. Killed by Theon

I feel very ambivalent on this one and most of my reluctance comes from not trusting GRRM's writing abilities to depict it in a way that I find compelling. I love revenge stories, but I rarely like their endings. I love revenge stories, I just rarely like the way they end. "When you go on a journey for revenge you dig two graves instead of one" Sometimes. Sometimes you also dig just one grave but have to spend the rest of your day laying next to the corpse of your never-ending anger and rage. I don't enjoy it a lot when achieving justice or revenge is portrayed in a purely happy light. It doesn't erase everything that has ever happened, it makes you feel unhappy because you know that no suffering inflicted on your abuser could possibly be enough to fulfil the void inside you. It isn't something, it is devastating. Good, now Theon killed him, he is gone, he will never hurt him again, now what? Now what? Is that supposed to be liberating? He is still perpetually changed and now he doesn't even have a target for all that pent-up rage and frustration to be directed at and (Can you tell I'm part of the minority that liked TLOU2 even more than TLOU? ), to me, the concept of adding Ramsay to the long lists of ghosts haunting Theon feels so harsh. I could enjoy it a lot!!! It's just that I doubt it would be written that way and the options mentioned above are more to my taste. I think that if Theon is the one that gets to kill Ramsay it will probably be portrayed in a more triumphant manner, maybe trying to convey Theon's complete rebirth and the deaths of Reek the Second (Ramsay) and Reek the Third (Theon at the Dreadfort) and, even though "Dead is dead. Better dead than Reek" is one of my favourite Theon moments ever, I don't really believe he should completely cast it aside.

"Reek, reek it rhymes with freak/weak/meek/etc." Sure! But also, were it not for Reek he'd probably not be alive. I don't know. I don't like the idea of him reappropriating that name like a minority would reappropriate a slur, but I don't think he should fully reject it either. In a sense, I believe the Reek persona allowed him to find some strange type of mental freedom in regards to "Theon" as a political pawn. Many of the conflicts he had to deal with during ACOK involving his cultural duality and his political standing disappear once he is conditioned into Reek (granted not in a healthy way) and I think that allowed him to develop into his own self more. I don't know If what I'm saying makes any sense. Not a favourite, but still something I could like. Personally, I would like it more if their last conversation was something completely mundane since I think that is very insulting to Ramsay, but it could be cool to have a final scene of them interacting in which Theon openly defies him and Ramsay is perplexed by realising he has been beaten by a creature "lower than a worm in human skin." Ramsay probably hasn't read his Shakespeare, GRRM has. Even a worm will turn.

Here, is the idea someone wrote for a scene emulating the confrontation between a slasher and the final girl and it was fun to read it.

6. Killed by Theon & Jeyne

I dislike it for similar reasons as to why I dislike Theon killing him, and I really don't like the idea of Jeyne being part of it, but I think there would be a lot of value in abuse victims coming together against their abuser and perhaps it would make their bond even stronger which would always be a perk to me because they are the relationship I care about the most in here and I just want them to be a supportive presence in each other's life. As said, I just like the idea of Theon/Jeyne never having to see Ramsay again. I think that is a slight to Ramsay.

7. Public execution by a Stark or a Stark loyalist

Depending on the Starkling doing the execution we could get a glimpse of affection for Theon and Jeyne, which I wouldn't like. Mostly because of personal issues with how the "friendships" between Theon-Jeyne and their respective Stark BFFs are something I interpret very differently to the fandom's common perception.

I also really want Theon to liberate himself from the "The Starks™ were your true family" motto, and the narrative portraying them through a purely heroic and victorious light would annoy me (I like all of the Stark kids as individuals, I just don't like the Starks™). Especially in Ramsay's case, I think it could easily be interpreted as the Starks™ being Theon & Jeyne's saviours.

I do understand how Ramsay, as part of House Bolton and the current Lord of Winterfell, isn't a villain designated to be solely attached to Theon & Jeyne. Politically he and Roose are the Starks' biggest opponents and threats, so I would understand it if GRRM still chooses to take this route (preferably through Jon or Arya) and could hopefully still find some enjoyment in it.

Something I think could be interesting but, similarly to the Daenerys example, is very far-fetched from actually happening, is if one of Lady Stoneheart's companions would be the one. Maybe Harwin. It could mix well with my favourite possibility.

8. Killed by supernatural force

My personal exception would maybe be one involving Bran. Out of the Starks and semi-Starks (Catelyn, Jon), his and Theon's relationship is the one I find the most interesting and it could be very emotional to see this little boy who was a victim of Theon's actions during ACOK be the one to smite Theon's tormentor. Years ago I saw this art depicting Bran and the Children of the forest warging into Ramsay's dogs and killing him while defending Theon & Jeyne and I still like the idea. The only real thing that would bother me in Ramsay dying at the hands of a supernatural force is that it acts as an opposite to my favourite option. If he is killed by someone inhumanely powerful, what does that say about him and his strength? Does that mean Theon's view of him as an all-seeing, all-hearing, all-knowing entity is not based on his own fear? Is Ramsay really such a monster he can only be brought down by another monster?

9. Killed by Jeyne

This one seems to be a fairly popular option, especially loved by Sansa fans and I understand why. There is a surprisingly big amour of art and memes and I can see the appeal but to me, it would feel very tragic which is why I like it the least. Jeyne is a character who has suffered so much while having very little involvement in the events that lead to that suffering. We only have limited information on Jeyne as a person and her role in the narrative is that of a vessel for other people's feelings (which is alright, we need secondary characters) and considering how she has been canonically appalled and repulsed by violence even before she was subjected to horrible acts of violence (being frantic about the Hound killing Mycah, having a meltdown at the tourney, being extremely distressed by the massacre at King's Landing), it would be very sad to witness her becoming a perpetrator of violence even if it would be justified. To me, it would feel like she has lost another part of herself to the trauma inflicted upon her by Ramsay. She has bled too much, I don't want her to have to stain herself in other's blood either.

I have come across other theories, but those are the ones (that I can group) that feel the most plausible to me. Roose or Mance killing Ramsay still deserve mentions of honour, but I don't have too many feelings about those. With Mance it could help bring Wildling and Northerners together and if it were Roose that would probably mean that Walda is withchild and that the Northern plot line might take longer than we all thought it would.

I don't fully oppose any of these options though! And I think there could be narrative value to all of them. As said, these are just personal opinions.

Anyway, I'm gonna go listen to Bob Dylan's Masters of War and mentally envision an amv feat. Theon and Catelyn.

#And I hope that you die #And your death will come soon #I'll follow your casket #By the pale afternoon #And I'll watch while you're lowered #Down to your deathbed #And I'll stand over your grave #'Til I'm sure that you're dead #asoiaf #hopefully #twow #ramsay snow #I'm never tagging him as a Bolton I don't respect his chosen pronouns and I don't know if I should tag the other characters #Anyway I have two options now #either I throw whatever remains of my pseudo anonymity out of the fucking window and then feel stupid because oh the shame #BUT I can laugh about it! and that is funny. I like laughing about my pretentiousness #or I leave it on the #drafts #and keep my thoughts to myself which is what I usually do #ramsay is interesting and as much as I know he's probably going to be played as a cartoon villain who is evil for the lols I don't regret #the marxist readings of him as ridiculous as they sound #Si no publico esto por lo menos tengo que mandárselo a Tânia asi que #recordar #si alguna vez vuelvo a ao3 no debería ser con fanfics de este tipo

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