#i should know it's happening and i should see robbe's reaction to it! that's the whole point of this whole pov thing!

[whateverthedragonswant]

Rewatching 8x05 for writing reasons, which is just a brilliant episode, despite any reasons some might have to hate it, valid or invalid. Miguel Sapochnik is directing and you see his talent and epicness in every shot (that man deserves a freaking Emmy already, I said what I said) but also there are so many things being shown here that if you muted the episode after Daenerys makes her decision, during the battle scene, you would be able to tell exactly what each character is thinking and what's really going on in the story besides the surface action.

Which brings me to that one scene that a lot of people said the woman being attacked as a stand-in for Sansa in the episode for Jon. They are correct and here's how.

Jon is walking through the melee, only coming to life to defend himself when Lannister soldiers are trying to attack him. The Northerners aren't listening to him, they're attacking innocent civilians, Grey Worm is on a killing spree, Davos is trying to help people get away from the bloodshed, Dany is burning the city, Tyrion is off somewhere horrified, Cersei is watching in terror from the Red Keep... But during this scene, the sound is muted to a point where the sounds of battle happening all around Jon sound very far away. We're now seeing what Jon sees, we're in his shock fugue with him. We see on his left civilians, namely women, being brutalized by soldiers -> he keeps walking. We on his right a woman being knocked down to the ground while a child is watching in horror, blood spatter and bodies all around her (and obviously traumatized & also in danger herself since no one is left to protect her) -> he keeps walking. He then sees a Lanniser soldier telling people to run, something his soldiers should be doing (and something he himself should be doing like Davos) but he's not. While the sounds are still muted, Jon notices another Lannister soldier about to rush him and he goes into autopilot & fights the soldier off. He then looks around in horror.

This is not what he signed up for and he almost looks lost, like he doesn't know what to do. Then the sound comes back fully and he hears a scream. In all of the melee, chaos, and death around him, he hears this one woman above the rest and turns to see her being dragged into an alley to presumably be assaulted by one of his own men.

Sure enough, she's about to be and she is trying to crawl away when the man catches her again. Jon ends up saving her, threatening to run his sword through the man. When the latter tries to fight him off to go back to assault this woman, Jon kills him and tells the woman to hide.

So how is this woman standing in for Sansa besides the obvious?

Two ways.

1) Ramsay was the former Warden of the North, the former bastard of Roose Bolton who was a Northerner who "served" Robb Stark, the first King in the North, before betraying him to the Lannisters. The soldier Jon faces off with is a Northerner and is supposed to be under Jon's command as Warden of the North and the former second King in the North.

2) Sansa is who stirs Jon into action when he feels lost.

Every.

Time.

And the parallels between the gif above with Dany and the dagger to the Northern soldier that had Jon's sword run through him, and Jon's staring almost sadly at the man, realizing he had to kill one of his own are far from being coincidental.

Not only was this a precursor to what would occur in 8x06 (and why Jon would make the decision he did) but it also is symbolic of the dynamic between Jon and Sansa as a whole. She's the one who stirs him into action, no matter how terrified or traumatized or angry he might be in that moment (like the shock fugue). No matter how lost he might feel. She gives him direction and dare I say a purpose when he has none (after his death; after the WW are defeated & Dany has gone into tyrant mode).

No wonder we weren't allowed to see Sansa's (or Arya's) reaction to the news of his being a Targaryen.

No wonder Jon told Melisandre not to bring him back if he lost the Battle of the Bastards (after Sansa told him if he lost, she wouldn't be going back to Ramsay alive).

No wonder Jon was not happy with Sansa on the dock in 8x06.

She's always stirred him into action when he doesn't want to be or know how to do it himself (after his death).

He passed a woman he could have saved.

He passed a child he could have helped.

He saw someone on the other side helping and doing the right thing.

The only time he steps in to help someone else is the woman about to be assaulted.

(x) "You are the shield that guards the realms of men. You've always tried to do the right thing. No matter the cost. You've tried to protect people. Who's the greatest threat to the people now?" (no reaction)

"Do you think I'm the last man she'll execute? Who is more dangerous than the rightful heir to the Iron Throne?" (no reaction)

"And your sisters? Do you see them bending the knee?" (a little bit of a reaction)

"Why do you think Sansa told me the truth about you? Because she doesn't want Dany to be queen." (more of a reaction)

"No, but you do. And you have to choose now." (he hesitatingly goes to confront Dany and then 🗡️)

It's not just about her being his "sister" or because she's Lady Stark or family or because they were the last two Starks once upon a time. She literally stirs him into action and gives him purpose. Her pushing to go back to Winterfell led to him caring about the WW invasion again. Her being the one he chooses to protect ended a tyrant and changed history, leading for her to become the first Queen in the North and regain Northern Independence, where she can be forever safe.

It was always Sansa for him, starting in 6x04.

[rise-my-angel]

Heart of the Great Wolf

44 - Greenish White Bloodraven

Pairing: Jon Snow x F!Baratheon!Reader, Robb Stark x F!Baratheon!Reader (Past)

Length: 16.2

Warnings: angst/hurt comfort, past character deaths, trauma related insecurities, alcohol consumption, discussions of pregnancy and miscarriages

Notes: So, what do we think the wider reaction everyone here will have to this news, come morning exactly? Previous Chapter Here, Series Masterlist Here

Stannis Baratheon could not tell yet if he was offended or impressed. From the previous days when meeting him for the first time, to that night, already he knew opinions were going to be mixed. On one hand, he preferred not to treat men with any degree of special treatment, but unlike what many spoke of him as, Stannis did not feel a lack of emotion. In fact, it was that tie of not treating him any different against what his emotions were telling him of that was the conflict.

On another hand, the boy was stubborn. Quite stubborn, and rather stoic and quiet in comparison to the short time Stannis had encountered his brother. On the more difficult end, the more they spoke in those first days the easier it was for Stannis to understand what about him would have appealed to his first born daughter. As soon as this man of the Nights Watch had told him his name, he was struck by the appeal to emotion to give him the chance other men didn't deserve.

Perhaps however, it was exactly those emotions that was why Stannis was leaning towards impressed rather then insulted. The Lady Melisandre had the King beyond the Wall ready to be burned at the stake, due in part for his role of leadership for the wildings and their attack, another in part of if execution was the just sentence for him, then she demanded it for that of the Lord of Light.

The King beyond the Wall had only just begun to sound out in agony as the flames encased around him, when suddenly from a high point behind Stannis and the crowd did an arrow come. Landing directly into the wildling King's heart and ending his life before his sentence was truly carried out. Stannis had turned to look and see what happened, but only saw what should have made him angry, yet didn't.

Jon Snow had killed Mance Rayder quickly out of mercy, and in a very public display against the word of a King.

So as he sat in what became his office, the bastard boy standing across him the next day, part of Stannis pondered these very thoughts. Why wasn't he more insulted, offended, angry? He would not let it go without a word, but even Ser Davos watching could tell Stannis was not anywhere near the sort of reaction he would've had were it done by anyone else.

But he reprimanded Jon all the same. “I ordered Mance Rayder burnt at the stake. You prevented that order from being carried out. You showed mercy to Mance Rayder. A king's word is law. Perhaps you should ask Ser Davos how much mercy I show to lawbreakers.” He could see the boys eyes drifting to where only stubs of a once full hand now remained of it's fingers. Yet still, Stannis did not quite maintain the level of authority which he had spoken down to even the boys brother with. If anything, he was aware enough to know this was more of a parent lecturing a child. “Show too much kindness, people won't fear you. If they don't fear you, they don't follow you.”

Jon however, spoke with a calm respect. He stood in silence with his eyes drifted somewhat downward as Stannis lectured him, but it was not the same look now. More of a wide, bright eyed honesty that did not come with attitude nor judgment. Just a low, rough voice speaking the raw truth which Stannis found himself appreciating.

“With respect your grace, the free folk will never follow you no matter what you do. You're the man who burned their King alive.”

He did not appear someone who wanted power, but Stannis tested that intention all the same. “Who then? You?” Jon however, did not hesitate with confidence to tell him no. Explaining that they would only follow one of their own.

It was quiet for a moment, and the debate in his head stopped there. He could tell the boy was on edge, and was expecting a punishment further then such a conversation. Of course he would, he thought to himself. He was a bastard, used to being looked down on. And as it were, he could tell men such as Ser Alliser Thorne and Lord Janos Slynt despised him to the point Jon likely was seeing little light at the end of the path.

But Stannis also knew, the two of them had both been in the others proximity for a number of days now, and not once had the boy come close to bringing your name up. Which was interesting, considering you were the only reason Stannis had any preconceived notions about him in the first place. He knew there was a closeness between you and Jon once, which few were ever graced to have.

And he knew losing that closeness must hurt a great deal, and yet, Jon Snow did not once so far come close to saying your name or even indicating he knew anything about Stannis having a daughter besides Shireen. He was keeping something locked very tightly inside in front of Stannis and he couldn't help the manner in which he eased up.

Stannis wanted to know more about him, because he needed to understand what about a bastard could at all endear themselves to someone such as his firstborn daughter. And why the same bastard seemed to act as if you did not at all exist, now that you were gone.

So he switched tactics. Lightened the air up with something Stannis had an inkling was going to illicit a reaction more then the stoic, cold quiet Jon had thus far. Pulling out a raven scroll tucked underneath a pile of papers. “Do you know this wretched girl? Lyanna Mormont?”

Raising an eyebrow, Jon stepped forward as Stannis pushed it across the desk. “The Lord Commanders niece.”

“The daughter of the Lady of Bear Island, a child of ten. I asked to commit her house to my cause. That's her response.” And it got just the reaction he expected. Calm, more calm, and suddenly, what might have been the closest to a laugh if even only a smile, which he was going to pull from Jon that tried to peek out as he got to the crux of the answer.

Bear Island knows no King but the King in the North, whose name is Stark.

Only the slightest of raising of an eyebrow did Stannis lean forward, the ghost of a smirk which was not to be noticed by any. If perhaps only Ser Davos beside, who watched with a quiet intrigue of the growing dynamic as Stannis said, “That amuses you?”

In a second, did Jons tune change. The stone wall was put right back up and erased every scrap of personality Stannis was trying to slowly pull out of him. “I apologize, your Grace. Northerners can be a bit like the free folk. Loyal to their own.”

Setting it back down on the desk, Stannis commented that he knew all too well of that aspect of Jons people. Robert during his reign had gone on often and loudly about how difficult it was to control them, even with Lord Eddard Stark acting as Warden of the North. They were a stubborn people.

Just as Robb Stark had told Stannis they would be. And Stannis knew he was a fool for ignoring him.

Ser Davos begun going back and forth with Jon regarding that night's coming event. Lord Commander Jeor Mormont had been killed some years ago now, and a new one would need to be chosen now that the wildling threat had been taken care of. Stannis had said to Ser Davos directly before Jon had been summoned, that it was not passed a man like Thorne to hang Jon for what he sees, which is a traitor and a threat.

Stannis did not claim to care what caused the man to think Jon Snow was a traitor, any hearsay he heard wasn't his business but he did care of that being a threat. And Stannis did not come to regret refusing to aid in any way to Robb Stark, only to stand back and let his brother waste every potential in him by being taken out by an unpleasant man with a grudge.

He did not mince words telling Jon that. “Your bravery made him look weak. He'll punish you for it. I don't punish men for bravery. I reward them.”

The boy made it easy to figure out what you would have been drawn to him. He was blunt and genuine and without attitude when so many would have spoken to him at that point. No, Jon Snow seemed to approach the truth and the subsequent burdens with as much weight as as his long passed father did, as his late brother did, as Stannis did and most notably, the way he knew you did too. “I don't doubt it, your Grace. But I'm a brother of the Night's Watch. I've pledged them my life, my honour, my sword. I don't know what I have left to give you.”

But Stannis knew there was one thing. “You can give me the North.”

Doubt ran across Jons face in an instant. A doubt and an insecurity which any highborn wouldn't have reason to feel, but being a bastard instead, Jon did not hide from it. “I can't. Even if I wanted to, I'm a bastard. A Snow.”

But Stannis had thought, if this boy being a bastard did not matter to you, it should not effect the manner in which Stannis was growing to view him as. You admired a bastard, and Stannis did too, but law was law. He was a bastard boy with nothing to inherit and leaving on his own would be desertion. But, Stannis was a just man, and he knew the law decreed that there were ways in which to remedy both situations.

One which would spare Jon from being at the mercy of a Lord Commander with a hateful grudge looking to hang him, and one which would utilize what Stannis knew could be a powerful ally at his side. Both problems too, had the benefit of one singular, simple solution.

“Kneel before me. Lay your sword at my feet. Pledge me your service and you'll rise again as Jon Stark, Lord of Winterfell.”

Much to their surprise however, Jon had been elected as the new Lord Commander and subsequently told him no.

Stannis's life made even less sense the more the year progressed. Receiving word that Balon Greyjoy was dead, the Ironborn had organized the first Kingsmoot in centuries and voted for their new King to rule the Salt Throne. Who had begun to pull the Ironborn out of the North, leaving Stannis to start moving along to gauge what was left remaining. He had thought however, of all men, they had elected Euron Greyjoy.

During the Greyjoy rebellion, by the time Stannis was able to sail to the other side of the country, he had encountered Euron and Victarion Greyjoy as they burned Lord Tywin's ships at Lannisport.

Unlucky for Euron and his brother, who commanded the other half of the Greyjoy fleet, they were not the only men who lived and breathed the open waters. House Baratheon was built upon being surrounded by water since the start of their house's existence. Stannis was the sailor of his family, even moreso then his father. In times of war, Robert gave Stannis full command to do what needed to be done and it took only two months to destroy the Greyjoy fleet.

He held the rest of them off as Ned Stark and Robert Baratheon lay siege to Pyke. Only after two of Balon's sons had died, did he surrender. Handing his last remaining son to Ned Stark to take as prisoner and for the rest of that family to lick it's wounds as Stannis could finally return home to what was now, his two daughters. He had recalled hoping that Selyse's brother Alester had heeded his advice, and allowed you the chance to rule Dragonstone in his stead, with guidance from what stayed there of his council as necessary.

No doubt Selyse was still recovering, she had been as unwell this pregnancy as she was the entire time she was with you. Perhaps he should have known all four of those others wouldn't have come to term, the only two pregnancies which produced a living child she had been sick from minute one. Meaning Stannis sailed home already with plans in place on how to tackle that. You'd need to be focused on your lessons once more, and that would mean taking time away from you with Shireen.

He never said a word of it, but one of the few times Stannis felt something grow in his heart was the early morning his ship appeared in view of Dragonstone. Quickly did Ser Axell call to him, pointing out a figure high up looking. Or two figures. The one time Stannis had smiled so easily in front of his men, was the sight of his twelve year old daughter, with his three month old newborn daughter in your arms helping her wave them home.

By the time Shireen's greyscale had been cured, Stannis knew he had an unspoken reason as to why he was insistent on bringing you with him to Kings Landing. The two Stark boys had been a tedious influence on your wildness, and previously Selyse had been fed up with your growing attitude. He knew bringing you with him to the capitol would help in that regard. But he knew he couldn't bring Selyse and Shireen, first he needed his wife and her eldest brother Alester to serve the island for him and he was not cruel enough to think he had the right to separate Selyse from the first child she was able to have that lived in over twelve years.

But he could bring you. You were so much like him in some of the worst ways, and the older you got the clearer it was that you somehow inherited too, the worst self destructive tenancies of Robert. It was a difficult relationship his whole life with you, but he loved you. And if he could have only one thing in that rats nest of a capitol, he wanted it to be you.

It was why when your fourteenth nameday was approaching and you still had not bloomed, he gave explicit instructions to you not to say a word to anyone when it happened. To come to him and only him, but as it turned out, a handmaiden saw it first. He knew why Cersei insisted you took on handmaidens, she wanted a spy to watch over the only girl in the capitol she could dote on and try to groom you for her plans.

So he did what he had avoided doing for almost two years, sending you away again. He wrote to Lord Stark telling him to expect your arrival, and ordered Allard to ensure you left on the first ship the next morning. You'd be as far from her reach as possible with the Starks, and he refused to let you return until he was confident he had dismantled every one of Cersei's schemes involving you.

But two years with the Starks, and two years growing into someone close to a woman, well, you never really came back the way you used to be. You felt dragged back by force out of nowhere and you had blossomed into a girl of sixteen by the time he saw you again and now all those worse parts of himself and Robert clashed tenfold between you both.

It never got better. Only worse. Then he did what he once sent you away to avoid Cersei doing. He used you as a pawn for what was Stannis's own political movements, by marrying you off for his own strategic advantage. It was karma really, he did to you what he sent you away to avoid Cersei doing to you, and in return you sided against him in a war. You were declared a Queen at your independent Northern King and husbands side.

Then he refused to make peace. Then he lost at the Blackwater. Then he lost you, he lost the son in law he never gave a single chance, and he lost the grandson Stannis never knew he was to have.

Only to meet Robb Starks last living brother, a man who Stannis was almost certain was in love with you. Only to then separate once more not knowing if he'd ever find reason to convince Jon Snow he was worth more in this fight then a frozen castle at the edge of the world. Then they met at Deepwood Motte, a wildling army at Jon's back where he insisted they speak inside in private.

The news never stopped being out of control. According to Jon, you were dead, and then alive, you were a prisoner of the Boltons the entire time, and now the boy, Ramsay Bolton was preparing to start a war to get you back. Only, it got stranger and stranger what Jon told of him until it all led to what Stannis quickly caught onto was all but a thinly veiled threat when the subject came up, that you had been considered a traitor to Stannis before your death.

“My own brothers stabbed me seven times in the chest and I bled to death trying to convince men to help me to rescue her. The only reason I'm standing here, is because she brought me back. Not any god or priestess or ceremony, just her. If Ramsay is willing to start a war to get her back after spending a year torturing her, try to think what I'd to protect her against a father still trying to call her a traitor.”

Jon Snow had gone from refusing to even mention you out of a strangling grief he wished to internalize, to standing before a King with a not so subtle threat that he'd protect you against more then just the Boltons if Stannis tried to push it. He had gotten the image all wrong when he tried to imagine your place back within life, back in Stannis and Jon's lives. He was terribly wrong about it all.

Only, he wasn't as he now realized. He was right about almost all of it.

The ironic thing was, that faced with the reality of the imagined fantasy Stannis wondered up in the days in Castle Black, it was clear which one between you and Jon was equipped to handle him without any hesitations. Jon had stood before the sitting King with nerves and a raw honesty.

This time though, you sat across from him to position yourself as an equal, and the silence in the room was not wrought with nerves or tension. Just a stubbornness and a complete lack of intimidation.

Green eyes on green eyes unblinking in their stare against one another as you sat down before him and still you and your father sat in a silence. Whatever arguments the man was ready to put forth, you knew you were equally as ready to knock them all down.

Minutes passed before either of you broke, and it was your father who did it first. “I don't imagine your mother was thrilled over the matter.”

A sigh may have left your mouth were you less controlled in your nerves of said moment. “Her daughter went from a Baratheon to a Stark to a Snow. I didn't expect her nor you to be pleased by it.”

Any other man and there may have been blatant judgment in their tone, but in your father it was even and dry only caring of getting to the route of the topic at hand. “Neither of you presumed to think it would be appropriate for the man to gain blessing from the bride's father before a betrothal is made.”

You didn't blink, nor did Stannis. He did not jump right to his point without ensuring you understood where he was going to be coming at it from in root, but you didn't really feel the patience for it right now. It wasn't meant as a game but it felt one regardless. Your tone was if possible, even more flat and unwavering dry as his. “Previously, you had assumed Jon and I were sharing a bed so to speak. It seems a step backwards to care about asking permission for marriage before caring about pre marital affairs.”

Both of you were far too stubborn for this. “Two moons ago you married, we can cross out being with child as the reason for how rushed you went into this.”

A part of you hesitated, there was no shame in the truth anymore and certainly not with your father in comparison to the sort of affairs both his own brothers engaged in. But would it change his view of Jon you wondered. Then again, you could also find it in you to argue that if this changed his opinion now of all times, he must not have respected him as much as he claims. So you were honest. “Jon and I have shared romantic feelings since I was fifteen. We've known each other since I was eight. I think it is safe to say, he and I have done the opposite of rush into this.”

He didn't look as if this was new information, which was the strange part. You knew the only one who had an inkling was Shireen, but you had known for a fact she kept all of it to herself since she had never even confronted you of such subjects in that manner. How your father knew, you couldn't figure out.

Calm as ever, you both looked at one another, sat on either side of the desk in quiet as the muffled sounds of work and yelling filtered in through the stone walls against the crackling fire. “He taught you how to use a sword.” Not a question, and thus you gave one nod of a yes before he continued. A curiosity filtering in his gaze. “Selyse wasn't happy about that either, when you returned home that year.”

“It might be more productive by now to make a list of things I've done that have made either of you happy compared to not. If we name all the things about my life you disapprove of we may be sitting here quite a long time.” Silent for a moment you forced the question out. “What is your point here, father? Is it that I married without your expressed permission or is it because I married a bastard?”

“Something's changed since the last we spoke.”

Silence sat between you both more, “Has it?”

He couldn't have known, you know he didn't know. You were keeping it a secret from most everyone for a reason, including why he managed to escape alive in the first place. In truth, you didn't want to sit here and talk about Jon. You wanted to sit here and ask what on earth was wrong in your father's head when he decided he was going to let the red woman murder his own nephew, the only one he had left for all he knew.

You wanted to know why when there were so little of Baratheon blood left, were you all self destructing towards oblivion.

Your father murdered his brother, and tried to murder his nephew and you murdered your sister. You could sweeten that night with honey all you wanted, but at the end of the day, your father and you both killed your own blood. Maybe you wanted something from him which he couldn't provide. The answer of why this family was doomed to destroy each other.

Your father kept his calm in the face of a silent whirlwind behind your stoic gaze. “The last we were in Kings Landing, I met a number of Robert's bastards. Didn't care for any of them. Half Robert, half whatever tavern slut he bedded on a drunken night. The only nephew I had known for some time was Joffery, and not yet realizing the truth of his birth I saw no interest in getting to know any of Roberts other children. They weren't trueborn, and nieces and nephews or not, if Robert was not going to recognize them, why should I?”

Was it hypocritical you thought? The degree to which maybe you should rip the necklace from your person off and give it right back to the man who gave it to you, the one who didn't know what it was like to push dagger into the back of her skull. Mercy or not, why should you be angry about what Stannis had almost done to Gendry when you had done it yourself to your own little sister, to Shireen.

But it slipped out in an anger regardless. “Because they have your blood in their veins, same as I.”

You had seen her state, she had no life waiting even if she would ever awake without agonizing pain shocking her back to the darkness. It was different you told yourself, so why did this not feel different?

It was easier when you learned about Renly. You were still a person then, a human made whole in life and not a shell of what used to be with your sisters blood on your hands. This time, you learned about Gendry after you had already committed kinslaying exactly as your father did. You did not have the right to feel angry at him, when you did it yourself. You and your father were no better then the other.

If Stannis had a point he was making, he was tying it together from various starting points of stories he assumed were related together. “Your mother was not happy when I married you to a Northerner, but at least he was a highborn. Heir to Winterfell. Happy or not Robb Stark was an appropriate suitor for my daughter. Had in those days you come to me and told me you married a bastard without my permission, I'd have dragged you back to Dragonstone with me and never let you out of my sight for some time.”

Your eyes drifted to the side ever so slightly. Dramatic, but precisely what you would have expected in such years. Only, the connecting bonds your father weaved together, you hadn't expected. “So when I offered to make Jon the Lord of Winterfell, I offered to make him a Stark to do so. He was only a bastard, and law is law so I offered to declare him the name of his fathers house and seat in exchange for his fealty. He turned me down, and do you know what it was I had thought that day? What came to mind when he told me no?”

Shaking your head slightly, there wasn't a judgment in his gaze, but something a little more weighted with an emotion you were struggling to identify on Stannis, at least when it was directed towards you it was a struggle.

What wasn't expected, was the real answer. “I had wondered, that if in another life where you had lived, if you were still alive, would that have changed his mind. If I had offered to make him a Stark, offered to make him Lord of Winterfell, would he have accepted my offer, if you were alive to offer him as well.”

Brows narrowing, your head tilted in a slight ask of a confused whisper. “What does that mean?”

“Had you been alive, or more accurately, had any of us known you were alive, I would have given you to him as a wife in addition to everything else. Give the boy one more thing he never had, a highborn girl he had been in love with.” He had known, in whatever manner he deduced, your fathers time with Jon directed him to the very conclusion Jon had hidden from all too many. “Naming him a Stark wouldn't have changed the boy being born a bastard, and if I was willing to marry you to him then, I'm not sure how much else could convince you that is not the issue now.”

Nails dug into the leather of the other glove in your lap, not sharp enough to feel much of the pressure against your skin under. Still, nothing was said from you. “I am insulted this was all done without my knowledge or consent, but that does not mean I disapprove of the marriage or of him. You chose all on your own to let your surname become Snow, and your children will hold that name as well. If I cannot change that, I will not waste my energy being unhappy over it.”

Inhaling deeply, you had to convince yourself to turn and look back at him mid way through your own sentence. “What is this then? A lecture to tell me how disappointed you are?”

The immediate falling expression into something flat on your face at the ease in which your father looked at you without blinking and said, “It is like you said, if we were to sit down and discuss everytime I have been disappointed with something you've done, we'd have spent much more time in my office over the years going over it every other day.”

It was difficult to tell when he was being hyperbolic to amuse himself or to find a small rise out of you, but the stiff quiet between you both wasn't awkward as it was a bit of a distraction from the previous tension going unsaid. A hum in your throat had you peeling your eyes away with a smirk only he could've spotted without question. “And you wonder why you weren't invited. Now, can we move to the matters at hand or shall we sit here a little while longer and pretend I'm getting a stern talking too?”

Still though, it was a strange thought which remained in your head for the moments of quiet you were left alone in. Your father was right in a manner of speaking, everything he offered in their own way came to reality. Only without his help was the caveat for some, and titles were the difference in others.

The memory of seven fatal wounds forever carved into Jons chest. A death which led to every prediction of your father to come to fruition, but for as far as he has come, part of you wished he had taken the offer when he had the chance. Returning to life didn't make it any better that he died trying to find you in the first place.

He had done much to move on from it, move you both on from thinking of it, but it was right there every time you saw them. The memory unable to be shaken of walking down the steps of the Ice Cells for the very first time that morning as everything which had the chance to finding something positive in your life died all over again. It wouldn't have changed that he was Robbs heir, it wouldn't have changed how you felt about him, it wouldn't have changed that you would follow him no matter where he was to lead you.

It would've meant he lived, and for perhaps the first time, you hated how dedicated the Starks were to doing the right thing no matter the cost to themselves. Jon himself had told you he didn't regret trying to leave to find you, but he should.

“I have four thousand I can station between four castles right away, and I have another ten trapped in the Stormlands by the Golden Company.”

Were you anyone else, the guilt may have been brought out on your face right away but as it was, neither you nor Jon gave anything in expression away. Nor even shifted a glance to one another. A lie quick forming in your mind to jump to Jon's defence before anything of what he and you had done would be given away. This would be the worst time for that as such.

As it was, Jon stood confident as ever. It was clear his time in the Nights Watch had left an impact on him which had not gone away. Before Edd arrived, he looked the most comfortable walking even the ruins of the Nightfort, and still looked just as at home in these walls as he did at Castle Black. The only thing any different from your last time spent at the Wall, was there was slightly more grey and browns mixed with the ever present black on him, and the once wild curls now tamed pulled back.

Hand clenching in on itself, you forced your eyes back to the table you sat at, on one side of it Jon was stood braced with his palms against it and Stannis stood at the other in a similar position. For once, you had said nothing in argument as Jon had insensitively moved to almost push you back in the seat when you made to stand with them. Nothing said further when he seemed all but shove food in front of you with a pointing gesture to make you eat.

Ripping off small bits at a time, thankful that despite the almost amusing pushiness, Jon seemed to sense lately exactly what you needed, when you needed it. The past week in particular he was very keen on picking up any changes in your mood, behaviour, anything. You couldn't yet tell if Ghost, who currently was sat dutifully by the back of the room with keen watchful eyes, was doing the same on his own or picking up the habit influenced by Jon.

Though, Ghost did bring a dead fox all the way in from the wolfswood about a fortnight ago, and found you specifically to gift it to. Your two White Wolves both odd creatures, they were.

Jon's voice rumbled somewhat to the side of you, “I can send a raven to Storm's End. Find out if Aegon would be willing to negotiate letting your men leave.”

The quiet sat on your fathers face and you already knew the precise question which would come out of his mouth. “And why would the boy be willing to do so when he previously refused to cooperate?”

You were proud however, the ease in which Jon had the answer without finding his way to the lie which sat underneath the how. “Aegon knows eventually his aunt will make her move to Westeros, and he knows it will turn into the two of them against each other. We managed to negotiate a truce with him, he won't try and force the North to bend the knee or fight in his war and in exchange the North won't choose a side. If he and his aunt go to war, he agreed to show us peace if we give him neutrality.”

And the follow up you had seen coming, “How did you manage to come to that agreement?”

Quick and flat, you let it slide out as if natural in the moment statement meant as a jest towards your father, but Jon only briefly glanced to you with a wider look in his eyes at how easily you covered up to Stannis of all people, especially when you knew the lie was truly yours. “Some Kings are more willing to negotiate peace treaties with each other then you.”

Once more however, it was striking in the room between primarily Jon and Theon the degree to which only a few years apart from you and so much context of your life was forever missing to them. Ser Davos looked down with an amused glint in his eye covering a smirk, and your father only matched the flat look in your eye as an answer. “Very well then.” Looking back to Jon he was quick to the point. “Send word to him as soon as possible, the sooner I can get my men to begin work on the castles here the better prepared we can be.”

You could tell as the room filtered out, Jon was silent in his stare to grab your attention but it had missed you entirely as Theon came to speak beside you. “You can't avoid them forever, you know.”

Glancing to the side before flickering your gaze back to the cold outside, you held back something of a sigh. “I can when we leave and they stay here. We allowed them here to fight this fight, not preach things to me I had spent years avoiding being apart of.”

Theon could tell you were being stubborn, but you on the other hand knew that he wouldn't push the issue in the same manner others may. “Should have hanged them both before ever letting them get anywhere near Winterfell.” You didn't look with a glare that time but Theon felt it no doubt, following himself up with a more collected tone. “You can frame it however you like, but they were still part of that plan to kill you.”

Shortness on your tone, you almost interrupted him. Cutting through whatever words may have come next the moment you could sense the end of his breath. “Kidnap. Murder is a far charge away from that of kidnapping. And you and I both know now they did not plan it. Hanging them wouldn't change that someone else planned all of that.”

He was quiet, and you knew he felt as agitated as Jon would everytime you came up with excuses for what Beric and Thoros had been apart of. “Your father know about it?” The answer of no came so quickly it almost brought more aggravation from his tone you didn't need to look to know was there. “If they aren't guilty, why not tell him about it?”

“There is little Stannis Baratheon appreciates more then executing justice, but this didn't happen in his lands. It isn't his business. We are handling the rest, he doesn't need to be told everything which happens in my life.” You felt the cold wind stinging across your cheeks, but in a way you almost felt relieved by the sensation.

A bitter awakening which kept you on your toes instead of the comfortable many wanted for you now.

“Don't know much about him. Spent some twenty years at Castle Black before being made Lord Commander. Didn't last long after that, and if I don't know more means he probably wasn't very good at it.” Always one to appreciate the manner in which Edd got right to the point. Your arms crossed your chest, elbow propped up onto one to let your nails tap at your lip in thought as you listened.

He also thought little of your questions or their abrupt nature thankfully. “What happened to him exactly?” Also a stroke of luck he either did not pick up on your unusual curiosity or did not see fit to particularly care in prying about why.

Part of him looked exhausted, though you were beginning to feel as if all of you lived in such a state these days. His voice sounded distant and somewhat muttering as he clearly tried to recall the exact details he may have once knew. With how much he read you knew Sam might have been a better starting off point, but even if you could catch him alone, he'd mention the questions to Jon the moment they saw the other next. Which was the point you were trying to avoid, certain things simply didn't need to be added atop his shoulders despite what he insisted. He wouldn't let you take some of the burdens from his shoulders to share so you weren't going to add to them.

“Went ranging north of the Wall, disappeared, died. I assume. Hard to say that for sure anymore.” Your expression fell to a tie between somewhat dismayed and understanding, but regardless Edd caught the sense you were going to make him elaborate first. “Men disappear out there all the time, anything could have happened.”

Pacing along the length of the room, you shook your head more to yourself. “Any ranger perhaps, but I find it hard to believe the Lord Commander could disappear out there and no one would come back with anything to say about it.”

“They would if no one was there to come back with him.” Tormunds voice bounced off of the walls and against the wood towards your ears but your face scrunched slightly in a confusion. Turning to look at him there was something narrowed in his gaze towards you. “Sometimes crows leave all alone and don't come back, Mance didn't.”

It was Edd's turn to look back, standing a bit straighter with a tilt of his head towards him. “Mance Rayder wasn't Lord Commander, and he was born out there. This guy wasn't. Can't imagine many highborns willingly leaving everyone behind to live out in the snow.” This time, it was your eyes narrowing in a bit of a surprised curiosity. But it had to wait for now.

“Maybe he was looking for something.” As soon as you had asked for what, Tormund once more looked as if now he was the one withholding information on purpose. He clearly knew enough to give you small details but something else was being kept in his head despite you having the clear indication he knew more then he was willing to divulge. “Freedom? A Woman? Who knows.”

Edd piping up with a doubt in an amused tinge hinted at in his voice. “Man was in his sixties. Can't imagine he only found the urge by then to start sticking his dick into something after twenty years.”

“Be surprised what old men want when they go grey. I've seen plenty of grandpa's get new energy like their boys finding out they can play their cocks all over again.” Oh you were not the correct person to be a participant of this discussion. Holding a hand to your forehead as both men went back and forth until you found your limit of dick discussions for a lifetime.

Holding a hand out almost in a pleading for whatever they were saying to stop, you interrupted them with what was clearly an embarrassed grimace on your face. “I believe we have gotten far off the discussion, gentlemen.”

Nodding towards you, both men now smirked at one another in a knowing joke you were not in on. “You'd think being married to a crow she'd know all about that.”

Now you didn't even know what they were talking about anymore at all. Edd not helping as he indulged whatever joke Tormund was making at your expense. “Guess not. Suppose we know why they still don't have any little ones yet.”

Your face scrunched in a disapproval and yet almost an innocent bewilderment how you even got onto whatever this topic was. “I don't even have a clue what you two are going on about anymore.”

Whatever the smirk between Edd and Tormund meant, it had you rolling your eyes in an instant. Muttering as you made your way to leave the room to their boyish mockings on their own. “Many thanks for the assistance.”

Only, instead of finding the door to the cold outside did a large hand grab at your forearm and without any effort tug you backwards. Body landing somewhat in a stumble only to be cushioned by the now very close proximity of Tormund. Brows narrowed as he leaned down to look at you with a quiet but more serious tone for your hearing only. “If you're not going to stop snooping, may as well ask the only one here whose been out there his whole life.”

Raising an eyebrow, you found he almost matched your expression in a challenge. “I did ask you, and you claimed to not know anything.”

“Did I, now?”

Both pairs of eyes could've been mistaken for glaring had it not been a staring competition between you and Tormund of all people. Though you supposed to Edd it looked rather as such. Your voice lowered for only him to hear with a roughness held back in frustration. “I'm not paying games, Tormund. If you know something tell me, if not, let go of me.”

The last man to be intimidated by you, he didn't take the bait whatsoever. The smirk was almost infuriating however. “Starting to sound like the pretty crow needs another reminder how to loosen up.”

Only silence as your eyes narrowed just slightly more, only this time the jest behind it was far clearer to him then Edd now confused as anything. “If you weren't twice my size I'd have hit you by now.”

Passing a beat between you, instead he once more used his stature to turn you in place, tugging you more to his side before shoving you to the door as your previous goal was. Tormund this time following suit as he rumbled just behind you, “You know all the right things to say.”

In the cold air of the Nightfort, a great laugh left him as you sighed almost so deeply one would think it came from the mouth of a disappointed parent. Under your breath you whispered in an exasperation, “Seven hells, I knew you weren't done letting this go.”

Waiting until the moment you passed him by, did Ghost stand up and dutifully follow wherever the path was which Tormund was directing you. Unbeknownst to you as he trailed along, the red behind the direwolf's eyes weren't bright and attentive but almost darker and tense behind them. Tormund wasn't the only one not letting that go.

By the time the name Brynden Rivers came from your mouth, Tormund had told you he's never heard of him. Your eyes rolled with a glare up to him. “I know you haven't heard of him, that's why I didn't originally ask you that.”

The Nightfort made sense only in terms of when the Nights Watch was regarded with respect and given the manpower and resources to hold it. By the time it was abandoned it then no more made sense to keep it. You had walked for what felt like ten minutes and still found yourself only now approaching the other side of the courtyard. Not even five hundred men could maintain this place for such a long period of time, let alone the dwindled numbers you could presume had been it's final count.

“So what did you see exactly.”

Twice now you had seen it, in one dream then once more not long ago. Both times not alone but a crow with three eyes beside it, as if they stood one in the same now. It had pricked at your mind that first dream, the second you returned to the waking world that you knew the image in words you hadn't had at the forefront of your memory. It was why you scrambled to search the texts for it.

It had been more then only a red raven, it was a raven with feathers looking as if it was utterly coated and dripping in blood. Two eyes only but red blood dripping from it, but the crow with three was black as any normal bird. That one you had seen more then twice, but you had even less of an idea what it was meant to symbolize.

Tormund had clearly been thinking on it for a while, responding to such description easily. “Never seen or heard a raven like that. You said it was beside this crow?” A nod from you with no other input you let him stew on whatever was coming together in his head. “No one's seen a three eyed crow before, either but north of the Wall I know plenty who've talked about it. Say it's some omen of black magic.”

No, you thought, you'd seen black magic. It was in blood and fire and horrible death. This was not the same at all. Leaning now against a stone wall, the only destination he had intended was privacy. Ghost circling around to near a corner where his eyes could ensure focus from every oncoming angle before turning his head to watch you intently. Tormund stood somewhat a few feet in front of you, most of the jesting act now dropped as he prodded your mind for detail.

“Is there any difference in seeing it with your own eyes or seeing it in a dream?”

Tormund however had a strange answer. “The only place anyone's seen a three eyed crow is in a dream. Long time ago, my people would talk about it but no one's ever lived long enough to find it.” A question of why on your lips and once more you felt lost. “Never met anyone whose survived that far north, or at least survived long enough to come back. Last one to try said was about fifty years ago.”

Nothing was said and yet it dawned in your mind. Lips parting a bit as you looked down to the snow across the ground. Looking up hoping it would transform into a vision you could make sense of, but only stone and more snow in such a place as you already were. “This last one wouldn't have happened to be a man of the Nights Watch would it?”

A single nod and you despised how every answer made less sense to the mysteries wrapping around your mind. “Lord Bloodraven. That was the other title he went by. That's what I was discussing with Edd, the Lord Commander around fifty years ago disappeared ranging north of the wall, and before that most remember him as Lord Bloodraven.”

Answers should feel relieving, not that of a heavy weight adding to the strain in your head begging to turn into a pounding agony. “So, some old Lord Commanders coming to you in a dream with a three eyed crow. Maybe he's trying to tell you the answers you're looking for are out there.”

Just as Tormunds head gestured to where the Wall stood high someway beside you both, did a third voice join the pair of you. Only this one was both loud and yet a deep rasping with little patience in the short tone attached to it. “Then she won't find them.”

As the larger one turned, your head rose with a wider look bright in them as Jon stood with his posture tense and rigid a few feet from you. Leathers across him yet even without anything warmer you somehow felt as if you still were colder in the winter air then he was. A glance with Tormund, Jons eyes harsh and just as intense as the air around him he nodded behind him. “I want a moment with her.”

Neither you nor Jon moved until the small alcove you stood in was now alone save for three, one of which came up to Jons side more energetic then before. A gloved hand ran over the side of Ghosts face as Jon muttered something low and affectionate in tone before both came over to you. Still leaning against a stone wall, your hands wrung together as if nerves sat within you.

Perhaps they did, but you couldn't quite figure out what was wrong. Or, that kept being the problem wasn't it? “How did you know I was over here?” Jon only flickering his eyes pointedly to Ghost before your lips parted in a curiosity. “Do you do that often?”

Hardly what you could call a shrug came from him, Jon closing the distance more and as soon as he stepped with an arms reach you felt his warmth already radiate into your skin. “Only when I'm worried about you.”

Tensity in the air seemed both out of existence from him and heavyset within your blood. A gloved hand reached out as he invaded the remainder of your personal space along your arm, his head leaned down a slight bit to meet closer to your eyes. But you hardly met his, glancing away prompting Jon to try and follow to keep up. “You don't need to be. I'm staying in the castle walls still.”

Your voice was a mumble, but you could tell the meekness seeped through, wishing you could curl in on yourself as his hand ran down your upper arm. “What do you-” Your eyes flickered up to meet his and the brightness in yours painted an insecure image that you knew looked bad on you. Jons voice dropped to what felt like pity, “Darling,”

His hand tried to reach up, gently brush your cheek and jaw to turn you to look at him but you almost flinched from the touch. A shake of your head as you mumbled, eyes casting downward to the black across his torso instead. “Ever since Moat Cailin..” Trailing off you wished you sounded more put together then your wavering tone did. “I know you don't trust me but I still don't understand. Not trusting me is one thing, but it's as if you don't even want me doing anything.”

The same gloved hand ran through the loose strands of your hair as Jon muttered your name low, but you avoided his gaze still further when he tried to make you look at him again. His breath hot as if brushed across your skin and if he was any closer you'd be able to feel his curls were they loose, brushing against you as well. “That's not what this is.”

Down further your eyes found instead of up, you could now see the pommel of Longclaw sat against his side. Your hand still wrung together in front of you. “I try to help you, you make me stop. I try looking into things about whats coming for us and you tell me not to. I try and figure out what's happening with these dreams and visions and you get angry with me when I explain I'm doing it to help you.” He was silent, but his hand still ran through the strands.

Jon sighed deeply, trying again to no avail to get you to look up at him, and even the tender rasp of your name didn't do the trick. His other hand found your hip as you continued to not reach out to him the same way. “I trust you more then anyone else-”

Shaking your head, you felt your limbs tense at the feeling in your throat. Don't do this now you thought, don't get emotional now of all times. If it was evident as you spoke, you weren't looking enough at Jons reaction to know if he caught it or not. “You don't. I know that, that I've ruined that. But it's as if you don't want my help at all. I don't even know why you let me come if you didn't want me here-”

Cupping your cheek properly Jon leaned in to make you face him, but your eyes still couldn't handle whatever was in those beautiful greys. “If could only have one person with me anywhere, it would always be you, no matter what. Where is this coming from?”

Did you even hear him? You didn't know, the noise in your head was loud and too nonsensical to make out genuine words when he was so close to you. He was too warm it wasn't fair. “Everything I try to do to help you, and you get angry with me for it. If you don't trust me to help you, Jon, I'd rather you be honest and say it because everything about these past few weeks says you'd trust nearly anyone before me. And I get it, I do, I ruined all of it but..”

You shook your head in the pause of your words, Jon now letting his other hand dance along your jaw trying to tilt you back to him but the watering sting behind your eyes only got worse.

“You won't let me do anything to try, I don't even know when I have any chances to gain your trust again because you keep telling me to stop.” He muttered your name but the red in your stinging eyes warmed part of your face and throat and you despised how pathetic it was you were upset over nothing again. You didn't have the right to be upset Jon didn't trust you.

An attempt to lean in had you turn your face away from his, not in malice or the sorts, but heavy on an insecurity that used to sit on the man before you, not you before him. “I trust you, I want you here by my side, but it isn't as simple as that right now-”

“Then tell me how to fix it.” A second or two did you meet Jons desperate gaze but you looked away again as the upset wavered with frustration. “Either I'm a terrible Queen, or I'm a terrible wife, but I don't know how to fix it if you won't let me.” In the mere moments it took Jon to reign in the shock forming across at the rawness in your words did you fill it with whatever noise sounded off louder in your head. “I'm scrambling to find any scrap of something to help you but maybe I'm making it worse, maybe you don't want me to help and I'm too blind to realize it.”

Did Jon say your name? You weren't sure, the noise in your head now blended with the racing of your heart and not at all did you have the awareness to know any tears had fallen down your cheeks. You still refused to look at him. “I'm constantly scared I'm ruining things in your life, and- fuck.” Cutting yourself off something more panicked waved through you as the noise in your head turned clearer so too voices you might have recognized.

If Jon did or said anything you missed it, pulling away from his touch as you felt the tears and the impending humiliation. Wrapping what was once his fur cloak around you more, you shook your head, tears freezing in the cold air. “I thought doing this in private was the better choice, since I was getting in your way but now I don't even know what to do at all. Somethings been wrong between us and I don't understand why.”

His hands reached your forearms from behind, running down them as Jons warmth enveloped your back as you spoke. “In the crypt you said that maybe you didn't know me anymore, but really I don't know you. You came back different, you became a different person in the time we were apart and all I did when I came back was get worse. Maybe I don't know you anymore and I'm only just catching onto that.”

The second Jon tried to comfort you, breath warm at the side of your head as he rasped your name. A gloved hand trying to dance along your person to reach your scar but you pulled away again, that new rough wave inside you upset as ever before. You felt a mess as he followed you with the same low tones hoping to reach your ear. “You've got it wrong, I'm trying to protect you.”

But the only way you seemed to think Jon decided to do that was to push you away. You barley stood at his side when discussing things that mattered anymore, he hardly gave you anything to do to help him and got upset when you did like you did now, and try to figure things out, out of his way. “You told me if I couldn't lead, you still wanted me to stand by you. But now all you do is tell me to stop, tell others to stop helping me when I'm trying to do things for you. I don't think there's been a single day for weeks you haven't looked at me like you hate that I'm in the way.”

Jons voice rose a bit as it was stern, but you tried to walk away from him and it raised even more so he could keep up. But all you heard was anger, your rational mind didn't know what else it could be indicating. “You're not in the way and nobody, including me thinks that you are. Ever since that night on the ship it's like you're convinced I want to get rid of you.”

Turning towards him, it took him back both the raise in your own voice but also how it did not match the more devastated look in your eyes. “Ever since that night you look at me like I've lost my mind, Jon. And the moment I try and figure out what's happening to me you make me stop. All I want to do is be someone you can be proud is at your side but maybe I'm too stupid to realize that all I'm good for really is warming your bed at night like a whore.”

Jons brows narrowed, lips parting slightly as he looked at you. Something darker sat behind his eyes, head turned to the side just a bit as if figuring something out as he tried to close the gap you created between you. It wasn't a judgment on his part you said it with, but the words themselves struck something in Jon that put him on a cliff's edge which you yourself, could not see was there. Opening his mouth to speak, he thought better of whatever the words were before throwing out a demand of your name. “Look at me.”

Whatever Jon saw when you did, it was something he didn't like but you couldn't stand here and find out, not with people around not when you were in a place that was nowhere near home to hide or find any comfort in. You would rather have turned around, been in Winterfell and sought comfort in your bed, but no- the bed was Jons. Not yours.

“My lovely bride, you wouldn’t have happened to play around with other men while you were gone were you?”

Ramsay was right. Stoneheart was right. You weren't anything anymore. You were a Queen, a leader at Robb's side but all you could manage at Jons was being a whore for his pleasure. And now you just tricked yourself into thinking marrying him would make that mean anything else.

“Fighting for my whore of a bride sounds like a wonderful idea.”

He should've let you go back. He should've just let you go back to Ramsay. You hadn't gotten any better since then but at least Ramsay wasn't a good man, you weren't bringing him down by being in his clutches.

You heard Jons voice close through the muffles of your mind, “Darling, I need you to listen to me-”

But you shook your head. Turning away from him, not bothering to hide that you were wiping the tears away before any out there could too see how pathetic you were. “I've kept enough of your time.”

Oh if only you could turn around and see how heartbroken the wide eyed expression in Jons eyes were at that one. The return to formality last seen only in the days of Castle Black but now you were so much more to him. But you didn't see any of that. And it made Jon mad.

He had worked so hard to help heal your mind, and suddenly the weight of the world and winter and these dreams and visions all but destroyed the progress you had made for him. It was starting to feel as if you were as lost as those first days you came back to him. But this time so much more was at stake if Jon couldn't fix it in time.

If you found out on your own now, Jon didn't want to know what you'd do. You had long walked away as his heart tore away at him, still standing there. He lost the chance to tell you the other night, and ever since Jon was trying to wait for the same perfect opportunity. But maybe you needed to know right now. Before you let the memory of Ramsay Bolton take you from Jon, back into his torment.

If he could have killed that man all over again, Jon would ensure this time was far bloodier. It would not be many months more until it marked a year since you escaped Ramsay, but some times it felt as if Jon kept losing you to him over and over again. Everytime you got better, Ramsay pulled you away from Jons love, back to make you hate yourself all over again.

If he were being honest, Jon was glad Gilly was back in Winterfell, otherwise he knew he'd have ended up all but rudely kicking her out of the room with little proper decorum. Instead, all which occurred was Sam nearly being ambushed as Jon both barrelled into the room and slammed the door shut behind him. Sams head jolting backward, “Jon?”

Words trapped in his throat Jons hands braced themselves against the desk Sam had been sitting at, head hung down as his jaw clenched through breaths asking to painfully heave. Before he could be asked anything else in checking, Jon all but hissed your name out, eyes closed knowing he had to say it out loud to someone before he said it to you tonight.

“Ah, now I must admit, when they told me I'd be given a watch partner I didn't expect someone as important as yourself to do so.” Many times since meeting again, Thoros's voice was grating and irritating as it was preachy.

Only now as you slowly approached, hair blowing back in the high winds and all but clutching the fur around you to cover your front you hadn't yet met his gaze. No, instead it was the green wavering in the far distance on the North you saw first.

Once more in the winds the only sound, did Thoros break that peace. Softer in tone and a weight behind it that he was not often heard with. “Mesmerizing isn't it?” Your head titled just a little bit to indicate you were listening. “I know, for everything I stand for, I'm the last person who should admit that, but it is. Hard to take your eyes off it once you see it the first time.”

The green truly was something else. Nothing but fear and horror has become you in the world of red and fire and yet the shimmering green against snow and ice was what drew you in so naturally. Neither of you spoke for a moment, Thoros leaned against one wall and you standing with both feet facing the far North with wide eyes.

By the time your voice spoke, Thoros had almost given up expecting conversation.

“She's pregnant.”

It took a good number of seconds and an entirely blank stare for the information to register to Sam, but the moment it did he shook his head out of the pause with a distinguished, “Huh?”

Jon's eyes were wide, something more vulnerable then Sam had seen in them for a very long time but it was there and Jon couldn't hide it. Repeating your name, there was something almost painful in the way Jon had to force it out. “She's pregnant. Around three weeks, she doesn't know.”

For the second time, Sam was at the disadvantage and had to be the one walked through things. “She- but- how would you know and she doesn't?” Only for a wide eyed and open mouthed realization to come over him, “Ghost. Ghost could probably sense it and if you went inside his head, then you could sense it.” The moment Sam begun a congratulations in his voice he stopped himself with another question instead. “Wait, she doesn't know. You haven't said anything to her?”

Grey eyes almost shining brighter then the firelight around the room, Jon felt nothing of the firm strength and resolve a King was expected to have. He felt more like a boy playing at leadership then truly one himself. “Sam, she's a mess. Everything the past two years and I managed to get her pregnant at one of her lowest points since I've seen her again.” Only the two of them in the room, Jon almost begged for the sun to go down already as if the night sky could hide such raw ramblings.

“You said it never gets any better.”

Still not facing him, you knew Thoros had heard you, but you elaborated anyways as you looked out to the green against the pitch black night sky. “In the dungeons, you told me it never gets any better. This feeling. What did you mean?”

He almost chuckled to himself, looking down to his feet before pushing off the wall to stand where you were precariously close to the edge of a mighty drop. “Five years it's been since the Lord granted me the ability to bring Beric back to the light. And in those five years I never thought I would meet a soul who would understand what such power feels like. Beric doesn't know, he never will. Coming back in comparison to bringing another back is easy. But us?” He whistled dramatically in the air. “There isn't a word in any language here or across the Narrow Sea that could describe what it feels like to someone who doesn't already know.”

The wind was bitter around your face but it kept you awake and reminded you that you at least had not yet taken a step too far and plunged to the ground. Far away your gaze was looking and so was the voice which matched your distant mind. “How do to handle it? Feeling everyday like you're so close to losing your mind, only to have that feeling double the next day and the next?”

A laugh from Thoros that time did not come across as genuine. Morose, macabre, but nothing in a genuine amusement as the wind almost mattered not around the two of you in something you had long since avoided speaking of.

He sounded more serious then most likely knew his whole life, “Well personally I drink a lot, but something tells me you haven't quite taken after your uncle in that regard.” Your eyes only then peeled to meet his, and there was a hint of a jest in there that was genuine. A person did still exist in the mess of him somewhere, so where was yours?

Tilting his head to implore him, Sam lowered his voice to something a bit more calming. “Jon, I don't really think many people get pregnant when the time is only perfect. Look at Gilly, she spent most of her time thinking I was never coming back, only for Karl and Rast to kill her father and take her home days after giving birth. Spent the first few months of Sam's life with me on the march back to the Wall.”

Sighing out deeply, Jon dropped his gaze. Jaw clenched as was his hands tensing against the wood, eyes slipping closed to try and think clearer. “This is different, Sam. I used to have visions of her, dreams of her. I'd see things that all came true of her, not realizing she was seeing me and now it's even stronger. Now she's almost living through memories that don't belong to her and she's going to make herself sick trying to figure it out to help me.”

“You used to-”

Pushing off the table Jon ran a hand over his mouth, the sight still came to him in his sleep sometimes. He'd wake up and all but throw the furs off the two of you to look you over to make sure you were alright. “I dreamt of the night she died. It was the last vision I ever saw of her. On the ground, soaked in her own blood and I kept watching her die over and over again. Then she came back to me, escaped the Boltons, came back to me and brought me back from the dead, Sam.”

Turning back once more Jon knew he looked almost like a wondering boy with fantasies then a man, a King discussing the complexities of his Queen. “She's done more to help me in that one day then I've ever wanted to ask of her, but I don't know how to get it through her head. Everytime I try, it's like she's afraid I'm lying to her or tricking her. Like somewhere inside her, she's scared she's going to wake up and be right back with Ramsay instead of me.”

He couldn't have that. The similarities were all too horrifying. Jon needed a way to get through to you before you were scared you had to have this child because you thought he expected it. Ramsay would've, it was the only reason he wanted you. He wanted you to give him an heir the way Rhaegar only wanted Jons mother to give him a third child. Jon couldn't have the first of your family together start off with those fears still swimming in your head, he couldn't.

Jon knew he's wanted to give you a child since your first night together. He had spilled inside of you secretly begging the gods to let it take, and then when it didn't Jon had to pretend he wasn't completely disappointed. It was far safer for your honour to wait, but that didn't change that Jon had wanted this a long time. Every single time he brewed you moontea he hated it, he wanted to throw it all into the fire and just take you twice more to ensure his seed took deep all over again.

But you came back to life so desperately alone, only to be told your only purpose in this new life was to be used for a child and nothing more. Not to get in the way, do as you were told and have a son and that was all you were needed for. He didn't want you to think that, and it slipped out in the air with Sam before he could contain the thoughts. “I don't want her thinking I did this on purpose.”

Sam though, had spent a good moment looking at him. Not with judgment or searching of guilt, but seeking a genuine raw honesty they both knew was sitting so close to the surface. “Did you?”

The truth between you two was strange. Not a man you ever would once think you'd care to have something in common with and yet at the frozen edge of the world, you and Thoros of Myr were the only ones who understood the turmoil of it all. The conflict. Beric could speak of doing what was told of him for the cause, but he didn't know what it felt like to be the reason it could happen.

Softly, you spoke out in a breathless sentence. “He doesn't understand. Jon tells me he needs me, but he doesn't get it. Not truly. He doesn't know what it feels like to realize your only purpose is him, that you wouldn't be here without him, you'd either be dead or live walking without cause if he weren't still here. That if you lost him, you'd lose the only reason to stay anymore.” Thoros was quiet as you spoke, and there was an eternal gratefulness in you that the night was too dark and wind to strong to see the watering behind your eyes.

“I'm not defending what happened, but you left him once and it brought you to us. And that brought him back to you. Maybe it's the Lord maybe it isn't, but it wasn't only someone elses plans against you, it wasn't vengeance. The only souls in this world who understand what it's like and we were supposed to come together. Beric doesn't understand why I have to bring him back everytime, but I'm willing to wager that if something happened to your King, you'd do everything then more to bring him back.”

Slowly you nodded, and Thoros did too. Bringing something up to his lips before handing it over to you. Turning with a raised eyebrow to the skin in his hand he clarified, “Black strap rum, courtesy of your fathers bannermen.”

Brows narrowing in hesitancy, you accepted it but the moment you opened the cap you glanced with more of a doubting glare. It took but one sip for you to cough before it even went down. A real laugh left him that time, grabbing you by the back of your cloak to keep you steady with one hand as his other went to take it back with a mighty sip for himself. You muttering out as he did so, “That is utterly vile.”

“You don't drink it for the flavour. But we still have time before they come, don't we?” Both of you looking to the green. “We'll find something for you to cope before then. Plenty of ways to self destruct.”

Taken back for a moment Jon asked Sam to repeat himself. “Did you get her pregnant on purpose?”

Jon almost couldn't hide his self doubt. He hadn't even considered that until that moment, but, what else was the alternative? Of course he wanted to get you pregnant, he's wanted that since the moment he came back. But he wouldn't get anything out of coming to Sam with this by lying. “I've always wanted her to be the mother of my children. Part of me hoped it took the night we were together, that first night in Castle Black..”

Opening his mouth to speak, Sam stopped with wider more playful eyes that in an instant had Jon turn inward knowing what was coming. “Oh. You two were...” Searching playfully for the right word he raised his eyebrows at Jon. “Intimate? The night she brought you back? You were that eager, were you?”

Turning away almost in a fidget, Jon rolled his eyes back knowing now he was moving far too much to be casual and both men knowing how much Sam was starting to enjoy teasing Jon about you. Almost mumbling Jon barley got out, unsure if he should even admit it. “I had her naked minutes after I first saw her in front of me.”

Leaning against the table he smirked at Jon, “And you're worried that after what? Nine months? That now is too soon to get her pregnant? By the sounds of it you'd be over the moon if she had right away.” Jon pushed off the table, pacing along the room with nerves once more. “Jon.” Turning halfway to look, Sam had dropped the mocking. “My point is, you've known each other since you were children. You snuck around with her for six years, and now you're married. It's normal for a man to try and get his wife pregnant. You didn't want children because you didn't want them to be bastards, now they won't be. They'll just be yours, and she knows that too. She's going to figure it out eventually.”

Hand running over is face Jon felt the nerves mix with exhaustion and it felt as it it boiled inside of him into something dizzying. “It's just..I hate not being able to help her with this..Ramsay's dead and I still can't make him go away for her..”

Soft as ever, both men looked at one another more vulnerable then some ever let themselves open up in a lifetime. “You can't force her to get better, Jon. You can only show her you'll always be there no matter how long it takes or how hard it gets.” Nodding, Jons head hung for a moment trying to ease his heart into slowing down enough to settle his breathing. “Trust me, it took Gilly and I a lot of work to get to where we are now. You two have known each other for way longer then that, you shouldn't be worse then me at this when you're talking to your own wife.”

“Thoros.”

Turning behind you, the nerves picked up in such a quick instant that you were grateful your hands were already clutched at the furs around you. Harder to see in the dark that way you almost flinched. But Jon stood there up on the so far, empty Wall as if he hadn't relaxed since you last saw him one bit, only having put the dark warm furs around him that blended so well with everything else on him like it was made as such.

Glancing to you for only a moment, Jon directed a quiet but respectful attention back to the man beside you. “I'll take over for you tonight, get some rest.”

A question formed in Thoros's eyes but he nodded. “Much appreciated, your grace.” Not quite passing you by, the slightly slicker Jons eyes slid down to the skin of what you now knew was rum before watching as the man turned the corner eventually to where the lift was.

By the time Jon had turned back, you once more were looking out to the shimmering sea of green against the night sky. Instead of a respectful stance next to you, Jon spared no time in coming up to your back. Not giving you the chance at pulling or pushing him away, Jon wrapped an arm around your front to pull you back into him. The other gloved hand raising up, across your neck to tilt your head enough to the side Jon could partially rest his forehead somewhat against yours.

You could feel him relaxing right away as your own hands came up. One somewhat finding the hand on your stomach, and the other grasping at what you could of his forearm. The wind between you both was cold, loud, and yet so much more peaceful then how you left him hours ago. And you voiced it as such, knowing you had to step up. “I shouldn't have spoken to you that way. I was out of line, and I'm so sorry.”

Sighing deep, you didn't blame him for it. You wouldn't take your apology either.

Instead of replying, Jon adjusted his hand to press yours against the scar over all the layers at your stomach before once again covering it and your hand with his own in the same spot. A gentle rasp in your ear had your eyes fluttering shut briefly at the soothing sensation. “I'm going to say something, and I need you to listen. No arguing, no anything. Just listen.”

You nodded, and for once Jon accepted that as enough for now.

Almost murmuring in your ear, you could feel the faint traces of his curls which fell loose dance across your skin as his thumb rubbed along your jaw. “Everything that's happening, you want to be there for it, help me fight it. But you keep going through waves of being alright and then this, because you refuse to admit you're still scared of him.”

You hated that you knew who he was talking about, and you hated that he was right.

You felt Jons breath dance along your skin as if the feeling itself made it easier to listen. “I let Ramsay say what he said, because no matter what, he had the right to say whatever he wanted his final words to be. But I was wrong about one thing. I should never have let you be there. I should've kept you away, beacuse ever since I took his head all you've been able to do is hear those final words over and over again.”

Shaking your head in denial, you managed to get out just the start of his name as he shushed you quiet again. Pulling you closer to his chest, almost nuzzling what he could reach of your head with his. “No, I know you have. You don't want it to be, but over and over again I know he's still there in your head. You went through hell with him, and I know you've been lying to me about the things he did. Trying to pretend it wasn't as bad as it was.”

Frozen to the spot, you thought for only a second when you realized it. “What are you talking about?”

It was Jons turn to shake his head, pressure on your scar against your hand Jon even closer mumbled into your ear. “I know he did things, made you do things that I never even could've imagined, and I know you don't want me to know because of how you think it'll look. But it doesn't change anything between us. You're scared he's right, that after all he did I won't want you, or I pity you. But he doesn't know me. Never has, and now he never will. Ramsay has no say in how much I will always love you, so I need you to understand me when I say I won't let him come between us anymore.”

You wanted to hide the watering in your eyes, but you had a strong feeling Jon was watching for it anyways. Stuttering barley a breath out, “Jon..everything in my head just feels..it's all wrong.”

Jon however, just kissed he side of it, before kissing the skin just under your ear. Breath hot against you, “Trust me, darling. It isn't just you. You're scared of disappointing me and proving Ramsay right, I'm scared of terrifying you into not wanting anything to do with me beacuse I'm too intense for you now.” Trying to protest in his own defence, Jon continued over your words. “For a year I thought you were dead, and for three and a half years before that you were married to my brother. And the first thing I did when I saw you alive in front of me was strip you naked and fuck you. And if we're being honest with each other, when I spilled inside you that night I was trying not to force you stay on my cock until it took.”

Pushing more against your scar, Jon almost smiled at the small gasp which left you. Looking to the green, but suddenly all you could see within it's shimmer was as if it reflected both you and Jon was you were now in it's sights. “Maybe it would've been easier if it had.” Jon silent, allowing you to elaborate on the thought before it left you. “Something Cersei told me, that if a woman has nothing in her life, she should treasure her child, hold onto one thing that's theirs, that makes sense if only to them.”

A hum vibrated through Jons chest into you, running his thumb more over your hand at your stomach before rasping, “You don't have nothing. You have me, you have your people, your family, you have everything right here waiting for you. And I'll help you however long it takes to get through that beautiful head, that you're allowed to not be alright. I don't want you to get better for anyone sake but your own. But you need to accept that you can't push this all down and pretend that's dealing with it, because now it's only hurting you more.”

As if every inch which Jon could reach of you was warm against the cold winds desperate to sting at the skin exposed. You leaned back almost more to hide from it without committing to turning away. A low murmur only he could hear, as your heart somehow did not beat yet raced all the same. “I haven't felt like myself since I've come back. I don't know if I ever will. I wanted to still give you the version of myself you fell in love with.”

Another large sigh left Jon, but the tone was creeping easier and easier back into being identifiable the more you relaxed against him. His voice low in your ear without ever wanting to move. “I was in love with you when I first caught a glance of you across the yard.” A small smile evident even when you could not see it on him. “I told you, we belong together. You can't get rid of me, and I'll never want you to. I want you by my side, but I'm not asking you to do the work. You're by my side because I love you, that's your job. Be the woman I love, and just let me love you for it.”

Almost giving you a tiny shake, you still managed to miss the brightness in his eyes shine with a smile as you huffed out a laugh. Your heart steadying a little calmer, “Sounds strange to say, but despite everything, life was so much easier when I was with child. We were in the middle of a war, but suddenly the only thing I was supposed to do was what I was raised my whole life to do. Marry a man and have his children, not very complicated it was.”

The whisper in your ear was almost insecure, “Were you happy?” A hum of question left your throat as he clarified. “When you were pregnant, being easy doesn't mean it made you happy. Were you?”

Your eyes narrowed for a small moment as you connected a few dots in your head, the fog clearing a bit more then it had felt for days leaving clues you otherwise missed. A soft smile fell over you, “I was married to a man I loved, and was going to have his child. Of course I was happy. But just beacuse we haven't gotten to the second part of that yet, Jon, doesn't mean it's for a lack of trying. You of all people should know that.” His chuckle pinged at your heart, it always did. “I'm not trying to deny you this, but it took Robb and I two years to get there.”

Only, the conversation you were expecting, wasn't what Jon approached it as. “It won't take two years, I promise.” A confused tilt of your head somewhat, you asked what he meant. Jon, spoke with the confidence of a man who knows what he wants, and suddenly the pressure of his touch against your scar made you lightheaded as he murmured to you. “I stopped brewing you moontea the night we married. It's only taken you and I two months. Not years.”

You were confused, trying to grasp what he was trying to say and- you knew Jon sensed the moment you figured it out. His hold on you was suddenly tight as if trying to keep you comfortingly close and to not let you move away. Your name came carefully from his lips, but you only stood wide eyed.

No longer even seeing the green, you only had one sense and it was the pressure of your hand trying to feel under all your layers. You...two months..the fortnight passed you had started this feeling. It was then you knew something in your head felt wrong but it wasn't that. Only, it was. Your emotions had been all over the place last time, needy, angry, on edge, you were more volatile then usual and you didn't understand why your head felt such a mess.

This time there was simply a bit of a pre existing mess it had to fight for attention with.

Previously you had worried you'd be a mess, conflicted and upset..but you had long moved passed that by now. You knew that, you had been ready the night you let Jon take you on Dragonstone. Yet, without that turmoil of conflict in your soul, you almost didn't know how to react, what to feel this time. Your voice barley there. “How did you-”

Jon luckily read the words in question. “Ghost can sense things we can't. He figured it out right away, I didn't until I was inside his head.” The cold winds no longer flew mindlessly by, it almost seemed to wrap around your limps and cocoon you in a sensation of something frozen to the spot without the sting of the temperature on your skin.

Your fingertips dug into what you could feel of the scar over everything and your heart lept from your chest and out to the world beyond. Almost echoing the words spoken some three years ago but not with quite the same joy, but an exasperated insecurity. “Why would you keep this from me?”

Turning your head moreso to the side, Jon rested his close enough he could almost lean down to nudge your nose with his. Nothing but patience poured from him. “If you haven't noticed, darling, your a bit all over the place lately. I didn't want to tell you while you were upset. I didn't want you to think-”

In what once might have allowed such insecurity to show in your tone, instead it was knocked back and downward by a hint of what could've been guessed was a smile. “You worried I'd feel pressured into it.” A nod was all you got from Jon, but letting your eyes slip closed, you found the bravery in you regardless. Reaching one arm backward, best you could you wrapped it moreso around the back of his neck, resting half along the skin you found there and half in the warm fur around him. Jon moved either closer into your back, or pulled you further into his embrace but his grip grew tighter once more. “I suppose it's only fair. I kept it from Robb, and you kept it from me.”

Were his heart not so heavy in his chest, Jon might have found it in him to chuckle. Instead you heard him roughly forcing a voice back out to the world in low, deep tones. “I know this isn't the life you dreamed of,” Wishing his grip wasn't so tight, you'd have turned to face him by now. Only this time you senses he was now the one hiding from you in a way.

Before the unsure feeling coming from on Jon could continue, you did what he seemed to be so good at with you. “Jon, the past is the past. I can't go back and wish I could change it now. You're my future now, and so the life I dream of is whatever we decide.”

He didn't say anything for a bit and neither did you. It wasn't the perfect portrait of a normal, joyous couple with such celebrating news, but perhaps that wouldn't suit you both. Not anymore. But surprisingly it was you who broke the quiet. The heavy weight you were so sure would burden you down with, it wasn't there. Not really.

You had made your peace with the life you lost, now it was the tormenting start of your new life plaguing your mind. But that shouldn't ruin this, they had no right being connected. “I believe that makes what? Four vows I've helped you break?”

Jon all but hid his face in your neck, muffled voice vibrating against you. “My father would be disappointed.”

Moving your hand back, you tried to keep him gently against you as much as you could manage from here. Leaning your head against his, there was the confidence in your voice to placate his insecure ones just as Jon would do for yours so often. “You are everything in a son a father could ask for. And I know yours is proud of you. He's always was proud, and he still is of who you've become. As is your mother.”

His hand over yours on your stomach tightened. After everything Jon had done to bring you back down to earth, he now was the one who didn't have the words anymore. But you didn't need him too. He wanted to focus on you as you did him.

And you knew Jon had forgotten, he lived an entire life thinking this would be something he would or could never have. He was so worried about how you'd react, you were starting to think it wasn't until right now Jon let himself truly feel something raw about it. But you'd let him take his time, just like he had with you. There was much to do come morning, but for now, the rest of the world and it's plights didn't get to exist. Not between you both, not right now.

Until the morning sun finally raised it's weary head, there was nothing up on the top of the Wall except you, Jon, and the new growing life he gifted you, against the otherworldly sight of a shimmering green winter sky.

[anxiousnerdwritings]

Wait hold on- I need to hear more about cersei flipping her lid after finding out about Joanna-Lookalike reader getting married and is pregnant. Like I just imagine Cersei rocking up to winterfell all excited to see her bby after she was ripped away from her and just seeing her daughter heavily pregnant (like days away from giving birth), and just freezing for like a solid minute just trying to comprehend wtf has happened, before snapping out of it and demanding who defiled her sweet daughter and who dared put a bastard in her, and everyone's in winterfell is like 'bish tf what u talking about they got married', because everyone was under the belief that the lannisters knew and just didn't want to go to the wedding.

Tw: Mentions of pregnancy and death during child birth

Oh my gods- Cersei pulling up to Winterfell only to act like a complete fool in front of everyone and Robert’s just busting his ass laughing?? It would no doubt happen like that too.

Not to mention that Robb would be attached to the hip of Joanna!lookalike, especially if she were so far along in her pregnancy. He’s on one side. Greywind’s on the other helping and keeping a watchful eye out for every step the Reader takes. So, when Cersei’s realization hits her she would immediately know that Robb was the one to have ‘defiled’ her bby.

Also, I can’t help but imagine Cersei trying to get a good look at them after having been away for so long only for all the direwolves to protectively get between her and the Reader. Not to mention that Joanna!lookalike has her lion there too. So just imagine six direwolves and one lion staring down Cersei. She would be so infuriated, especially given that she sees Robb as more of the actual threat than she ever could pose to her own child.

I also imagine Tywin being in attendance too since he also wouldn’t have seen his precious grandchild after so long. And he would be just as upset if not more so, the only difference is his reaction comes out a lot more calm and collected than Cersei’s. It’s safe to say though that Robert is getting two fucking earfuls from them.

Myrcella and Tommen would be so incredibly happy not only to see their beloved sibling but also to know that she’s married and with child. They of course would be upset that they couldn’t have been at the wedding and witnessed it themselves but they’re happy nonetheless. Joffrey would be utterly horrified, both seeing his sister so very pregnant and at the fact that they got married without his knowledge. He’d pick a fight with Robb about that too.

It’s not too much to speculate that everyone would have their hands on Joanna!lookalike’s belly. Especially the younger Stark kids and Robb himself but once House Lannister pulls up their hands would be even more glued the Reader’s pregnant belly. Myrcella and Tommen are the first to want to touch it and feel the baby kick. Cersei and Tywin would be the last to do so. Imagine Robb and the Stark’s reactions to the Mountain touching the Reader’s belly with his big ass meat glove of a hand, even if the Reader was the one to insist Gregor do so.

Back to Cersei, she would be hit with an overwhelming amount of anxiety upon seeing her child not only pregnant but how far along she is and that she’s up and about when she should be bedridden. Cersei would immediately want to get her child to a chair or to their room after she’s been able to process everything. Hell, she would command the Mountain to carry the Reader around, particularly have him carry her back to her bedchambers where she should be staying. Cersei would have no plans of leaving Winterfell until her grandchild is born and she will be in the room during the delivery. Poor Joanna!lookalike will have Cersei on one side and a Robb on the other while she’s in the midst of giving birth. And Cersei will be glaring daggers at Robb the entire time, blaming him for doing this to her beloved daughter.

Also, while she’s still in the middle of acting like a fool, Cersei would no doubt demand that Jaime or the Mountain (yeah cause Gregor’s there too) kill Robb for ‘defiling’ the Reader and putting a ‘bastard’ in her. And also for basically giving the Reader a death sentence if she weren’t to make it out of the delivery alive.

[asongofstarkandtargaryen]

JON SNOW DAY 8: FEAR AND TRAUMA 😔

The relationship between Catelyn and Jon is one of the most divisive topics within the asoiaf fandom. No matter where you stand on this debate, we can all agree that the influence each character has on the other’s life is a negative one.

Every time I write about this topic I feel the need to say that no, I don’t expect Catelyn to act like a mother to a child that isn’t her own just because the kid is related to her husband. Jon fans often get accused that we want Catelyn to “mother” Jon but frankly there is not a single Jon fan (at least as far as I’m aware of) that believes she’s obligated to do so. 

With that being said, there is a difference between acting like a mother and treating a kid with basic decency.  Catelyn is failing on the second aspect and fans rightfully call her out on that (same as they do with any character that is horrible other children).

We learn from Jon’s pov that she never calls him by his name. Minutes ago, on the same chapter she calls him “bastard”. Which means that mostly she avoids him, not even acknowledging his presence and that when she has to she’s calling him degrading names like “bastard”.

Her eyes found him. They were full of poison. "I need none of your absolution, bastard." Jon lowered his eyes. She was cradling one of Bran's hands. He took the other, squeezed it. Fingers like the bones of birds. "Good-bye," he said. He was at the door when she called out to him. "Jon," she said. He should have kept going, but she had never called him by his name before. He turned to find her looking at his face, as if she were seeing it for the first time.

AGOT, JON II

Do you know how dehumanizing is for a child never to be called by their own name by an adult that lives in their home? And worst, have the same adult calling them degrading names? Catelyn, by the way she treats him, makes sure that Jon feels unwelcome on the only home he’s ever known.

I often see fans dismissing Catelyn’s mistreatment of Jon as simply avoiding him. Which can be harmful on its own but the thing is that Catelyn’s ill treatment goes beyond of that. Jon is terrified of her to the point he kept postponing saying goodbye to a brother he loved (Bran) simply because he knew she would be on the same room. This kind of reaction isn’t born by a kid who simply doesn’t interact with an adult in a position of power. This kind of fear means that  some negative interactions between them existed in the past. 

The text also supports this, because when Catelyn is irritated by Jon’s presence in Bran’s room she doesn’t simply ignore it. She threatens him that she’ll call the guards aka using her power as the lady of the house to indimidate this  powerless teen:

Once that would have sent him running. Once that might even have made him cry. Now it only made him angry. He would be a Sworn Brother of the Night's Watch soon, and face worse dangers than Catelyn Tully Stark. "He's my brother," he said. "Shall I call the guards?"

AGOT, JON II

Lady Stark has casted a large shadow in Jon’s life. During the years he lived in Winterfeel, he always tried to be quiet, in the shadows. He never wanted to be in the spotlight (despite the fact that we constanly see post- Winterfell Jon wanting to be acknowledged) because that would also draw Catelyn’s attention. He also never felt fully belonging on his own home which was partly due to his stepmother’s mistreatment. Even long after he left Winterfell, he keeps having nightmares where she personfies his fears and insecurites.

Finally, I want to write about Jon’s relationships with his siblings and how Catelyn influences them. I’ve seen fans claiming that Jon had a good relationship with his siblings because Catelyn allowed it to happen but I honestly disagree. In my opinion, Jon has a good relationship with most of his siblings despite Lady Catelyn’s efforts to sabotage them. Canon also supports that with Catelyn speaking to a very young Robb about what makes his half brother different to him, to the point of Robb being agressive about it (something that older Robb who isn’t so easily influenced by his mother would never do):

Only this time, this time, Robb had answered, "You can't be Lord of Winterfell, you're bastard-born. My lady mother says you can't ever be the Lord of Winterfell.”

ASOS, JON XII

Another example of Catelyn ill speaking about Jon to her kids comes when she tries to convince Robb not to name Jon his heir. During that conversation she even compares Jon to Theon  (who as far as she knows is responsible for her two other sons’ death) implying that Robb’s half brother is capable of also harming their family:

"Jon would never harm a son of mine." "No more than Theon Greyjoy would harm Bran or Rickon?" Grey Wind leapt up atop King Tristifer's crypt, his teeth bared. Robb's own face was cold. "That is as cruel as it is unfair. Jon is no Theon."

ASOS, CATELYN V

Also, I don’t think it’s a coicidence that the child who is closer to Catelyn (Sansa) is also the one who has the most distant relationship with Jon. As Jon once again informs us in his pov, his sister always called him “half brother” instead of simply “brother”:

He missed the girls too, even Sansa, who never called him anything but "my half brother" since she was old enough to understand what bastard meant.

AGOT, JON III

To conclude, Catelyn hating the fact that her husband has cheated on her and has a child born out of his infidelity doesn’t make her an awful person, just a human one. The fact that instead of blaming Ned she has put all the blame to a powerless child is one of her negative traits and fans are justified to call her out on this.

[agentrouka-blog]

"When he thought of his daughters, he would have wept gladly, but the tears would not come. Even now, he was a Stark of Winterfell, and his grief and his rage froze hard inside him."- Ned(AGOT XV). "She ought to be crying too, she thought, but the tears would not come. Perhaps she had used up all her tears for Lady and Bran."- Sansa(AGOT II). Both Ned and Sansa are dealing with grief similarly yet Sansa is called psycho.

Hi anon!

Both of them feel their emotions very deeply. We know that Sansa cried herself to sleep every night for a fortnight over Lady and the events of the Trident, and  she likely did the same over Bran's injury before that. 

That's an exhausting loss of control, and one their society unfortunately has limited tolerance for. GRRM wants us to look at both of them and worry. 

When Sansa compares herself to Jeyne Poole's reaction earlier at the tourney, it's a little disparaging (”She was made of sterner stuff.”), but her composure reveals itself as something questionable even to herself later when Ser Hugh dies. Her natural reaction, which should match Jeyne’s is being suppressed. Because she has a duty to perform according to the expectations placed on her, but more probably because she doesn't want her emotions to take over again because it's so hard to wade out of for her. Because she had, ultimately, no support in her grief. She is already used to the mechanism of suppressing her feelings at this point in time, to a degree. 

We see her grief after Ned's death absolutely take over again, until she is forced out of it and we watch her reassemble her “lady’s armor” for the rest of her final chapter. Sansa has to maintain her composure at all times in order to protect herself and plot for her own escape at the same time. There are absurdly few moments when she can allow herself access to her feelings, lest they overwhelm her. 

It is absolutely like Ned. :(

When Ned remembers the Tower of Joy, he too remembers being overtaken by grief in a way that rendered him almost incapable of anything else, so overcome he erased the memory. 

Ned remembered the way she had smiled then, how tightly her fingers had clutched his as she gave up her hold on life, the rose petals spilling from her palm, dead and black. After that he remembered nothing. They had found him still holding her body, silent with grief. The little crannogman, Howland Reed, had taken her hand from his. Ned could recall none of it.

 (AGOT, Eddard I)

Everything about what happened there tends to be shrouded in snapshots, individualized imagery, small specific details burned into his mind. We get no coherent memory from him about the events surrounding the annihilation of his whole family outside Benjen. It’s too much for him to even trace with that kind of distance. There was no room for properly grieving, for letting emotion take over, due to his station and duty, and due to his secrets. (Or so he thought, anyway.) He, too, tries to evade feeling these emotions, and he has years and years of practice, to the point where the relief of tears has become completely inaccessible to him. He wants to weep. He can't now. 

It's reflected in Catelyn too, who wants a moment just to grieve but can never let herself, can't even let Robb do it, because there is no room in their world for it. It's crippling, they disintegrate under the pressure. Her tears become a horrendous permanent fixture when she dies and rises as Lady Stoneheart.

GRRM gives us the image of Alyssa's Tears, and his thematic preoccupation with suppressed trauma in his characters suggests he has A Point To Make about the importance of allowing room for grief and weakness, no matter how terrifying and debilitating and undignified it may feel in the moment.

Pretty sure that's a theme connected to the Wall as well. That Wall of Ice warded with magic to keep out a mysterious ancient enemy, who raises what should be dead. Ancient secrets, ancient anger, ancient grief.

I have a very strong feeling that the image of shared, open grief, of tears and festering wounds being allowed to open and drain, is going to be very prominent in the upcoming books. 

[lykosog]

"Come. Let me tend to your eye." ( from jeyne )

THE SPANISH PRINCESS SENTENCES QUOTES / Accepting

Doing as he was told since there wasn't much point in trying to refuse, the Stark walked over to his wife and sat on the chair in front of her in order to make it easier for her to examine it ❝ my eye probably looks worse than it actually is ❞ was it black? Yes. Slight swollen? Yes. Was his vision still somewhat blurry? Yes. But, did it hurt? Not that much. Though it could be because it was pretty recent and the actual pain was still to come as it happened with other wounds.

❝ I've seen many have it worse than me ❞ they had died in battle or had lost some limb after it, Robb thought. Not believing the Westerling needed to know every detail in order to get an idea of how cruel war could be. How can I complaing over such a small thing? If anything, he should consider himself lucky that was the only price he had to pay for yet another victory that would be added to the young wolf's long list.

❝ What really matters is that we defeated the Lannister host with very few losses on our side ❞ which meant they were another step closer to defeating them and being able to finally go home for good. A thought that made him both sad and happy for it reminded him how much he missed Winterfell and, at the same time, made him excited as he couldn't wait to see Jeyne's reactions as he showed her around it. The northerner often wondered if she would like it since everything in the south was different; somehow he thought yes.

[smores100]

ok so i have Thoughts about that robbe/sander scene at the cafe, and about this very interesting but apparently not at all important as far as wtfock is concerned tidbit where sander has been messaging robbe all week.....and they’re not positive (shocking). i’ve criticized wtfock about a lot of things, but this might be their stupidest storytelling decision yet, bc this is such a BASIC thing to fuck up and get wrong??? this is actually truly infuriating to me and, and is such a huge disservice to sander’s character. also this whole interaction/lowkey confrontation b/w them at the cafe MAKES NO SENSE???

apparently i’ve been judging sander ALL WEEK more harshly than i should’ve had?? i think we can all agree that what he did (and no excuses *atm* since we don’t know his mitigating circumstances yet) - violent attack friday night, ilu in the following morning, kissing his (supposedly?) ex-gf and their pics posted all over ig that evening - was shitty. but what made things even SHITTIER to me, was the fact that he did all that AND has been ghosting robbe all week. like, he couldn’t even bother to answer his text??? what a douche. when robbe ran into him at the cafe all i felt was annoyance, bc HDU ignore his text - ignore *him* all week, just to flirt with him as if nothing happened. but apparently that’s not even the case! he did answer! not only that, but he’s still sending him MESSAGES AND STUFF! messages, as in PLURAL. wtaf. WHY WOULD YOU NOT LET US KNOW THAT. why do you want sander to look even shittier than he already does??? and i get that we’re not supposed to understand wtf is going on with sander and why he’s acting the way he is bc it’s all part of the ~mystery~, but we *are* supposed to know: 1. the status of their relationship and where it stands   2. how robbe feels about everything....BUT WE DON’T. bc IMPORTANT INFORMATION has been withheld from us. which is why excuses such as ‘maybe the reason we don’t know what those messages said is bc robbe has been ignoring them and hasn’t read them’ are nonsense, bc it doesn’t even matter atm what those messages said, what’s more important is that those messages EXIST! and if robbe ignored them, that’s important to know too! THINGS ARE HAPPENING B/W THEM THAT WE DON’T KNOW ABOUT. and we *need* to know about that bc 1. it’s 100% relevant to the robbe/sander story 2. it’s important for having an immersive pov. if you’re not gonna post the actual texts, at least have a clip showing robbe receiving a new text and ignoring it, or going through all his unread texts and looking sad/angry. the main knows something that we the viewers don’t, and this is BAD WRITING.

and again, i know we’re not supposed to understand what’s going on with sander, but i still can’t help but try to make at least a *bit* of sense of it, and i’m completely failing, and the lack of sense + bad acting or directing or writing + bad pacing (this shouldn’t have been part of the coming out clip!!!!), made this robbe/sander scene feel weird to me......in og - even broke up with isak, isak saw him kissing sonja, he missed a week of school, even saw how dejected he looked when he showed up for school again. a couple of days later, even ran into him in the cafeteria - it was awkward and tense b/w them, even looked disheartened and down and nervous and struggling to find something to say, he made a little joke to try and break the ice a little bit, but you could see he was forcing himself and that it wasn’t a *happy* smile, bc he knew he did isak wrong (doesn’t matter that his intentions were good!). it was angsty and made me all *clutches heart*. that meeting was what drove even to reach out to isak via drawings a couple of days after that, bc he saw how sad isak was, how much he had hurt him, and despite believing he was doing the right thing, he still felt bad about it, and that was his way of letting isak know that he still cared for him (but could only be with him in a parallel universe, not this one, for reasons yet unknown). 

in wtfock tho - I DON’T UNDERSTAND ANYTHING. instead of everything being tense and sad and guilt ridden and regretful, sander was all smiles and happiness with that flirty callback, and then looked surprised/confused/sad when robbe was (justifiably) cold and savage with him. why????? this is the same energy as robbe showing up at sander’s school and being all smiles and then confusion bc ‘why don’t you want to talk to me???’ after the taking advantage accusations and the slur calling. WHAT IS SO HARD TO UNDERSTAND. in both cases, one of you fucked up (they know what they did wrong!!!), so the other is upset about it, i don’t understand these reactions. in this case, what was sander expecting exactly. where does *sander* think their relationship stands atm??? bc with even and evak things were clear - they were broken up, both parties were aware of it. but sander never broke up with robbe, but he also hasn’t heard back from him all week, so what exactly does he think is going on??? i’m honestly so confused about this??? we now know he has been texting robbe all week, but texting him what exactly? did he say anything to him about breaking up or going back to britt? did he apologize? did he just keep texting as usual pretending like nothing had happened? send him funny memes? WHAT WAS IN THE MESSAGES. does sander know that robbe knows about britt? did he just assume robbe would see the ig posts and get the message so why bother breaking up with him in person? but then why has he been messaging him all week??? if the whole point was to push robbe away (and unlike with evak, he had yet to see how miserable robbe looked), then WHY IS HE STILL MESSAGING HIM. what is he trying to accomplish with these messages. what’s the endgame here. i feel like i’m rambling and going in circles, but this scene didn’t work for me at all bc their story is so messily written that i don’t understand anything about it. are they broken up now? do they both know they’re broken up? the last thing sander told him was ‘ilu’ and he’s been messaging since then but we have no idea what he’s been saying but he still acts like everything is ok b/w them and is surprised that robbe is mad? what’s the deal with them??? no one knows 🤷‍♀️

[jackoshadows]

I always find it amusing that Sandor shows more anger and aversion upon hearing Tyrion and Sansa got married than Jon. But you won’t hear none of that from #those fans of hers lol

No, you don’t understand - Sandor shows anger and aversion after hearing about Tyrion and Sansa getting married ON THE PAGE! Which means, he doesn’t care about her unlike Jon Snow. That’s just how GRRM builds up relationships and writes romance, sorry 🤷🏽‍♀️

Unlike Sandor, it's too painful for Jon to even think about Sansa! He's too ashamed as a bastard to love beautiful, high born Sansa and is repressing his feelings because he is not worthy of her love 😭😭. The beauty and beast story GRRM is telling us is about beast Jon Snow - he got a scar over his eye! -  being worthy of the love of beautiful Sansa.

GRRM’s romance plots in the series tend to happen off page and only really smart book readers have figured this out. For ex. there is nothing between Jaime and Brienne simply because Jaime rescued Brienne or Brienne is starting to care for Jaime - that’s all written on the page and hence fake. 

I mean, we can see so clearly in ADwD that Jon doesn't care as much about Arya as he does for Sansa because he is worried and conflicted and concerned for Arya.  It’s not at all painful for Jon to think of Arya married to Ramsay ...

By now she’d be eleven, Jon thought. Still a child. “I have no sister. Only brothers. Only you.” Lady Catelyn would have rejoiced to hear those words, he knew. That did not make them easier to say. His fingers closed around the parchment. Would that they could crush Ramsay Bolton’s throat as easily. - ADwD

Or look at Robb and Catelyn reaction to the Sansa/Tyrion marriage.

Robb took her hand. “They married her to Tyrion Lannister.” Catelyn’s fingers clutched at his. “The Imp.”

“He’s the Kingslayer’s brother. Oathbreaking runs in their blood.” Robb’s fingers brushed the pommel of his sword. “If I could I’d take his ugly head off. Sansa would be a widow then, and free. There’s no other way that I can see. They made her speak the vows before a septon and don a crimson cloak.”

Catelyn remembered the twisted little man she had seized at the crossroads inn and carried all the way to the Eyrie. “I should have let Lysa push him out her Moon Door. My poor sweet Sansa … why would anyone do this to her?” - Catelyn, ASoS

Catelyn and Robb don’t care about Sansa as much as Jon Snow either. We know for sure that only Jon cares about Sansa the most - because it’s not on the page and that’s how any good author and GRRM builds up a proper romance story.

It’s not like when GRRM wants to actually showcase or depict a character not wanting to think about someone they are starting to like or be attracted towards...

Yet he was growing fond of Tormund Giantsbane, great bag of wind and lies though he was. Longspear as well. And Ygritte … no, I will not think about Ygritte. - Jon, ASoS

No, with Jonsa it’s this big super secret romance happening off page that only the smartest, cleverest people in this fandom have figured out. GRRM cannot even mention Sansa in any of Jon’s childhood memories and emotional nostalgia about the people he cares for and loves

He remembered the day he had left Winterfell, all the bittersweet farewells; Bran lying broken, Robb with snow in his hair, Arya raining kisses on him after he’d given her Needle.

Even the thought made him feel foolish; he was a man grown now, a black brother of the Night’s Watch, not the boy who’d once sat at Old Nan’s feet with Bran and Robb and Arya.

That might mean Lord Eddard would return to Winterfell, and his sisters as well. He might even be allowed to visit them, with Lord Mormont’s permission. It would be good to see Arya’s grin again and to talk with his father.

Jon Snow straightened himself and took a long deep breath. Forgive me, Father. Robb, Arya, Bran … forgive me, I cannot help you. He has the truth of it. This is my place.

Playing, Jon thought in astonishment, grown men playing like children, throwing snowballs the way Bran and Arya once did, and Robb and me before them.

because GRRM wants to subvert expectations, like David Benioff and  Dan Weiss did superbly in GOT for which they received critical praise, and have random events just happen out of nowhere. That’s how a good romance story in the same vein as Sense and Sensibility is written. 

Jon’s desperation to save Arya, breaking his NW oaths to go attack the Warden of the North etc? That’s not because of Arya. Subconsciously it’s about Sansa - she’s in his subconscious thoughts - off page - all the time, his great love for her is what motivates his decisions. Don’t ask me how I know this because it’s not in the books, I just do.

Oh and all Jon Snow wants in a wife and partner is lots of babies. For real. He is attracted to women who are willing to be broodmares and so Daenerys who cannot have children (Despite her possibly having a miscarriage at the end of ADwD) and Arya, who at 9 years old wasn’t a fan of marriage and babies, are out as candidates. Jon doesn’t even know his own mind when he loves Ygritte and is attracted towards and admires Val - they kill people😱. He is actually, secretly repulsed by them (All happening off page) just like he will be repulsed by Arya and Daenerys for killing people omg.

Which is how GRRM is giving us those hints and clues that Jonsa is happening because 11-13 year old Sansa loves marriage and babies and Jon hoped to have kids one day just like Daenerys and Tyrion.... Wait, Tyrion also wants children and so does Sansa and they are already married and Sansa is missing Tyrion in the Vale (While pretty much admitting to forgetting about her bastard brother Jon Snow)...

Nevermind! Moving on...

Mel telling Jon about Arya being a girl in grey heading towards them? Jon referring to Arya as his heart, sending Mance to rescue Arya, his excitement thinking that Alys was Arya and then comparing Alys’ bravery to Arya? GRRM is simply using his tertiary, side character Arya Stark for setup -  this is actually foreshadowing for Arya being a Jonsa cheerleader and matchmaker.

Just wait and see, GRRM is going to rewrite that whole plot again with beautiful, sweet, gentle Sansa getting to the wall as a ‘Grey Girl’ , singing Jon Snow back to life with singing magic (Don’t ask me about this singing magic, it’s 100% there), she will then reclaim the North, and realize Jon Snow was her fairy tale prince all along, marry him, teach him diplomacy and politics and give him the Stark name ❤️❤️❤️.  The North will then transform into a magical Disney kingdom and everyone will burst into song and dance. The End.

[letsasoiaftogether]

Preference...

...Their reactions/feelings towards their bride not being a maiden on their wedding night

A/N: The topic is ns/fw HOWEVER there is no actual smut below! I did my best to get these as accurate as possible, but there were one or two (Stannis) who I couldn’t find the right words to describe!

Ramsay Bolton

If he discovered his wife wasn’t a maiden when they married, he wouldn’t be angry that you’re not a maiden, but he would be very possessive and determined to let you know that he’s the best. Unlike the others, he wouldn’t pick fights or stop talking to you while thinking through his feelings, he would just…. be very handsy and always kissing you/holding you close. Verbally, he would probably just mock you for being with others when he existed (even if you didnt know him when you lost your maidenhood).

Roose Bolton

If he discovered on their wedding night that his wife wasn’t a maiden, Roose probably wouldn’t be bothered. The only thing he would want to know is if he has any sort of competition/if you’re still secretly seeing whomever took your maidenhood. While, yes, Roose is possessive he wouldn’t care too much about things that happened prior to his relationship with you unless those things could cause problems for him/his plans.

Stannis Baratheon

If his wife wasn’t a maiden on their wedding night, Stannis would be very irritated. He has his ideas on how a person should live and that would be even stricter for his wife. No matter if he chose his spouse or if it was a political match (on the orders of Robert), unless his wife was previously married Stannis would expect a maiden. He would see it as an insult if otherwise. He wouldn’t try to end the marriage, but he’s already awkward around women so there could be a long period of little to no communication from him as he works through his frustrations.

Theon Greyjoy

Wouldn’t be too bothered by it. As someone who sleeps around himself, and someone who comes from a culture like the Iron Islands, he wouldn’t make a scene of it and get mad/start shouting, but he would definitely use every opportunity to tease you about it.

Robb Stark

If he discovered his wife wasn’t a maiden on their wedding night, he would be surprised but he wouldn’t ask about it right away. He would be a little embarrassed to talk about it as it is a very intimate/private matter. If anything, he wouldn’t bring it up at all and just let it go. You’re with him now and as long as you’re not still seeing whoever took your maidenhood, then Robb probably wouldn’t see it as all that important to find out.

Joffrey Baratheon

If his wife wasn’t previously married, Joffrey would be furious if he discovered his wife wasn’t a maiden on their wedding night (if he even noticed). He would remain angry about it for a long time and would demand to know who had taken his wife’s maidenhood. There’s even the possibility of him manhandling the wife in his anger and/or demanding an annulment because he feels lied to.

[snowsandstones]

interesting that we don’t get book jon’s reaction to sansa being wed to tyrion

"By right, Winterfell should go to my sister Sansa"

"Lady Lannister, you mean? Are you so eager to see the Imp perched on your father's seat? I promise you, that will not happen whilst I live, Lord Snow."

and we get no inner monologue reacting to that at all. he must’ve known she was wed to him already but no internal reaction to Sansa being referred to as lady Lannister or reacting to the idea of Tyrion as a lord of Winterfell, nothing. all we know is it doesn’t stop him from reiterating again and again that Winterfell belongs to Sansa.

we get Arya, Catelyn and Robb’s reactions to their union. they all are appalled or in disbelief because they dislike Tyrion. Jon is the only one who doesn’t hate him but we never get his reaction….

[ladystoneboobs]

ok, my other stark family hot take is that i don’t think sansa was really much closer to robb than jon. we know robb/sansa also had a goodbye hug with the snowflakes in his hair, and that he led her, arya, and bran, into the crypts for his and jon���s cute ghost prank. but literally anything else between them is fanon, not canon. 

yeah, we know sansa thought of her big brothers very differently and would’ve wanted more interactions with robb and valued them more, but the question is what did he think/feel about her? without a pov, the best clue that we have (besides his refusal to trade jaime, which i do think he felt little choice about) is his reaction to sansa’s last letter to wf. where he blames her for the whole thing, not just arya’s exclusion, and needs luwin to point out these must have been cersei’s words that sansa was made to write. which is, um, a not great sign about the state of their relationship imho. my impression is more that sansa admired and idolized him from afar even when they still lived in the same castle. with the 4ishyr age difference and the highly gendered activity structures of their days i just don’t see much time for individual bonding. jon/arya’s first scene happens when arya runs away from her oh-so-important femimine lessons and jon is being excluded from male bonding, neither of which would apply to sansa or robb. sansa wasn’t interested in any “boyish” activities like arya was with all her brothers, and i see no evidence that robb would have interest in whatever more feminine playtimes sansa and her girly-girl cohort would get up to. 

lest anyone misunderstand and think I am perpetuating the myth of sansa an outsider within the stark household, never really one of them, i’ll just add that there is one starkling who appeared to have an equally warm relationship with both sisters and that’s bran. which makes sense since he was the one closest in age to the girls and is known for being a sweet kid who gets along well with most people, as evident from his first chapter. then there’s rickon too, who i’m sure sansa also had a good enough relationship with, but there’s really only so much closeness to be had between a tween and a toddler. (and lbr, rickon/any other starkling is mostly fanon too. all we know of him pre-abandonment is that he liked sweets, which is true of almost every little kid who can eat sweets. the “wildness” he’s primarily defined by was not an intrinsic distinguishing characteristic when the family still lived together, but a new trait developed only after they split as a response to the situation he was far too young to understand.) 

though as much as i’d like more bran and sansa fandom solidarity, it’s not like i’m saying everyone should focus on their relationship either, regardless of personal preference for other characters or fanon, bc that would be obnoxious. 

[astradrifting]

This is kind of inspired by this recent ask I sent to @esther-dot about Jon’s characterisation and Jonsa shippers’ apparent disregard for it, because it made me think of another part of Jon’s characterisation that is really integral to who he is. Mainly, that Jon really loves his brothers. Especially Robb. His rival and best friend and constant companion. Jon envies him, competes with him, buried a formative traumatic memory where he was deeply hurt by him... but ultimately loves him. Complex relationships with his brothers, both the Starks and his Night’s Watch brothers, are a running theme in Jon’s chapters.

Speaking of Jon’s brothers...

Aegon VI and Robb have a lot of potential parallels, actually. The “Young” moniker, red-haired counselors who are also their parents, trained to be the heir to a great kingdom from a young age, the barely younger half-brother Jon borne of their father’s dishonour of their mother… one that they might both have a good relationship with despite that?

The show tried to play with Jon ‘accepting’ his Targaryen lineage through the jonerice romance, very unconvincingly because it was simultaneously undermining it at every opportunity, in what was maybe a half-assed attempt at Pol!Jon (”They’ll all come to see you for what you are” isn’t anything but a threat in all contexts).

Jon will ultimately choose the Starks over everything else, that’s not really a question. But if Jon were to genuinely connect with another Targaryen, it’d likely be easier for him to find kinship with a half-brother than with an aunt - he has a basis for positive relationships with trueborn half-brothers, while the only aunt figure he’s ever known about is a) long dead and b) actually his mother. I think it’d both make more sense and be more compelling for GRRM to leverage Jon’s existing complex relationships with brotherhood by having him interact with and build a relationship with Aegon, than a rushed and out-of-character romance with Dany. 

Jon also is already primed to believe that Aegon is the real deal, that he was saved as a baby, because he’s already done the exact same thing himself - he swapped out a baby of royal blood who was in danger for a common-born boy, and then sent him halfway across the world for safety (side note: if Septa Lemore is Ashara, and if the baby was actually Ashara’s son as theorised here by @agentrouka-blog, that would just strengthen the parallel, because it would be his body double’s mother caring for him, as Gilly has to do for Mance’s son).

They’re definitely going to come into conflict first - politically, Jon will likely be in a position of power in the North by the time they meet, maybe as the KitN through Robb’s will or regent for Rickon, and probably will fight for Northern independence, while Aegon is fighting to be king of the Seven Kingdoms, not 6. Personally, it will be hard to get past the fact that Jon is the direct result of Rhaegar dishonouring Elia, plus that the Kingsguard who should have been protecting her were all stationed in Dorne, guarding Jon’s mother (in whatever capacity). But these interactions, a conflict and eventual friendship/brotherhood between them, would all be a lot more layered than jonerice can really offer. If a relationship between Jon and Dany was truly all that GRRM has been building up to, then there would have been no need for R+L=J - it adds nothing to that storyline, it doesn’t even make it a forbidden romance, because aunt-nephew is hardly the worst incest the Targaryens have engaged in.

It’s almost inevitable that Da*nerys is going to kill Aegon VI/Young Griff in the books, likely by burning him with dragonfire, in the Second Dance of the Dragons. The weird Dragonpit meeting in the show was very contrived, but it does make sense for Dany to meet the ruler on the Iron Throne at least once in a semi-peaceful context. In the show, she used her dragons only to intimidate Cersei, but she didn’t have a personal grievance with her. Aegon is in much more danger during such a meeting. After all she will think he is a pretender, and she doesn’t much care for the rules of safe conduct, as she showed to the envoys from Yunkai.

Dany shrugged, and said, "Dracarys."

The dragons answered. Rhaegal hissed and smoked, Viserion snapped, and Drogon spat swirling red-black flame. It touched the drape of Grazdan's tokar, and the silk caught in half a heartbeat. 

[...]

"You swore I should have safe conduct!" the Yunkish envoy wailed.

"Do all the Yunkai'i whine so over a singed tokar? I shall buy you a new one... if you deliver up your slaves within three days. Elsewise, Drogon shall give you a warmer kiss." She wrinkled her nose. "You've soiled yourself. Take your gold and go, and see that the Wise Masters hear my message."

(ASOS, Dany IV)

"Ah, there is the thorn in the bower, my queen," said Hizdahr zo Loraq. "Sad to say, Yunkai has no faith in your promises. They keep plucking the same string on the harp, about some envoy that your dragons set on fire."

"Only his tokar was burned," said Dany scornfully.

(ADWD, Dany VI)

So Dany will burn the Blackfyre pretender, and everyone will be happy and cheer to see the rightful queen, the last Targaryen, Slayer of Lies, Breaker of Chains, Insert-The-Million-Other-Titles-Here. Right?

Except how would she prove that he’s an imposter? She can’t exactly roll up with an Alt Shift X video pointing out that Illyrio has said some weird things about Aegon. Is Varys going to have an attack of remorse and explain his whole plot, complete with Blackfyre family tree? Or maybe she’ll explain that she went on a vision quest in Qarth and Aegon totally matches up with the vague symbolism that a bunch of drugged up warlocks told her before she set them on fire?

I don’t think it’s going to matter if Aegon is fake or not, and we might never find out either way. The mystery of his identity isn’t his main narrative, and all of his significance to the story and to multiple other characters is removed if he’s proved to not be Aegon VI. Him being proved fake would just make this plotline a weird, unnecessary digression on Dany’s journey to being the righteous and true queen, his death just another #girlboss moment for her. That’s definitely going to be her perception of it, but once she reaches Westeros we won’t have to rely on only her POV of her actions. History is written by the winners, and no one’s going to miss that it’s a lot more convenient for Dany if the boy with a stronger claim than her turns out to have been fake all along. Arianne and the Dornish are definitely not going to take it lying down, and neither is Jon. He’s not going to fall in love with the woman who murdered his brother, especially by burning him alive. ADWD has plenty to say about how much he hates death by fire.

“Men say that freezing to death is almost peaceful. Fire, though … do you see the candle, Gilly?”

She looked at the flame. “Yes.”

“Touch it. Put your hand over the flame.”

Her big brown eyes grew bigger still. She did not move.

“Do it.” Kill the boy. “Now.”

Trembling, the girl reached out her hand, held it well above the flickering candle flame.

“Down. Let it kiss you.”

Gilly lowered her hand. An inch. Another. When the flame licked her flesh, she snatched her hand back and began to sob.

“Fire is a cruel way to die. Dalla died to give this child life, but you have nourished him, cherished him. You saved your own boy from the ice. Now save hers from the fire.”

(ADWD, Jon II)

Funnily enough, the same fire as a kiss imagery from Dany burning the envoy’s tokar appeared there too, also used as a threat. 

If he is not a kinslayer, he is the next best thing. [...] What sort of man can stand by idly and watch his own brother being burned alive?

(ADWD, Jon IX)

So Aegon’s death is not going to be a triumphant victory for Dany, after which everyone proclaims her the true queen. It’s likely to just solidify opposition to her, from every corner of Westeros. If it happens during a summit or negotiation, it’d be even more of a tragic parallel to Robb and the Red Wedding; the young king murdered off of the battlefield, at an event where he was promised safe conduct. Featuring Dany in the role of Roose Bolton and Tywin Lannister. Tywin’s already died a very undignified death, and Roose Bolton looks to be on his way too.

I think the tragedy of Aegon’s death would also hit harder if we see it through Jon, as a main POV, or at least the aftermath of it. Jon was integral at the Dragonpit meeting after all, and probably would be at a peace summit or negotiation between the leaders of Westeros and the invading force.

In ASOS, there’s a curious lack of Jon’s reaction to Robb’s death. We see his initial reaction to Bran and Rickon’s supposed deaths when he gets back to Castle Black, but he doesn’t even know about Robb’s death until Stannis arrives to defeat the wildlings, and we’re not shown the moment he’s told about it. He barely even thinks about it, not even a mention until he meets with Stannis on top of the Wall:

“Your brother was the rightful Lord of Winterfell. If he had stayed home and done his duty, instead of crowning himself and riding off to conquer the riverlands, he might be alive today. Be that as it may. You are not Robb, no more than I am Robert.”

The harsh words had blown away whatever sympathy Jon might have had for Stannis. “I loved my brother,” he said.

(ASOS, Jon XI)

And that’s literally all we get that is specifically about Robb’s death - the rest of Jon’s chapters, his guilt and grief is about the loss of all his siblings, and the idea of stealing Winterfell from them. It doesn’t really make sense for him to not think about it at all, considering how close they were. This reminds me of how he has a non-reaction to Sansa’s marriage to Tyrion as well, as talked about in this post by @agentrouka-blog. Part of this could be Jon’s tendency towards denial and suppression of all his feelings, but it also points to GRRM explicitly obscuring his reaction - perhaps because he’s going to explore it in the wake of another brother dying a very similar death? One that this time he’ll be there to witness?

[kellyvela]

Hi! I wanted to ask you something. Jon and Sansa thinking about having children and having domestic life with their respective partners is a strong foreshadowing for jonsa. Then there was Jeyne W who also told Cat that Robb was going to name their firstborn after Ned. While Robb is dead, it's not sure if jeyne is pregnant. Sansa didn't married to Willas and Jon will not gonna steal Val. Do you think it's foreshadowing something?

Before actually answering your question, I think we can't compare Robb and Jeyne, who willingly married, actively tried to have a baby, and were arguably in love, to Sansa and Willas (they never met, they never married, they weren't in love), and Jon and Val (they never had sex, they never married, they weren't in love).

Also, while having the wish to name their children after their late father and siblings, Sansa couldn't stop thinking about Loras, not Willas; and Jon wished Ygritte were alive so he could marry her instead of Val.

And Loras is a stand in for Jon the same way Ygritte is an stand in for Sansa.

. . .

"A king must have an heir."

Jeyne Westerling told Catelyn that Robb was going to name their firstborn after Ned???

Are you talking about this passage???

"Jeyne," she called after, "there's one more thing Robb needs from you, though he may not know it yet himself. A king must have an heir."

The girl smiled at that. "My mother says the same. She makes a posset for me, herbs and milk and ale, to help make me fertile. I drink it every morning. I told Robb I'm sure to give him twins. An Eddard and a Brandon. He liked that, I think. We . . . we try most every day, my lady. Sometimes twice or more." The girl blushed very prettily. "I'll be with child soon, I promise. I pray to our Mother Above, every night."

—A Storm of Swords - Catelyn III

Because it was Jeyne who told Catelyn that she (Jeyne) was sure to give Robb twins to be named Eddard and Brandon, and that she thought Robb liked her idea (Jeyne's idea).

We don't know if Jeyne Westerling was, at some point, pregnant or not.

With all the Tully super fertility references, Jeyne could have been pregnant, but, as you can read in the quote above, her mother Sybell Spicer was giving her an abortifacient all the time, and sadly, that's what happened to Lysa Tully in the past... That's why a guilty Hoster Tully repeats "Tansy" in his sickbed several times, since "Tansy" was an ingredient of the abortifacient that Lysa took all those years ago...

The Lannister not only plotted to kill the King in the North, but also to prevent that said king have an heir... Sybell Spicer and the abortifacient were part of the plot.

And if there was still the slightest chance that Jeyne was pregnant with Robb Stark's heir, the Lannister would not hesitate to kill the unborn child and the mother, if necessary.

Actually, I'm afraid that in the next Book Jeyne Westerling will die anyway...

Now, Robb also used the same phrase "A king must have an heir." while later talking with Catelyn about the North's Succession, and guess who were the ones actively mentioned during that conversation? Any thoughts?

The answering is, a "Lady Lannister" (lol) and a "bastard Snow". Let's see:

"I had hoped to leave Jeyne with child . . . we tried often enough, but I'm not certain . . ."

"It does not always happen the first time." Though it did with you. "Nor even the hundredth. You are very young."

"Young, and a king," he said. "A king must have an heir. If I should die in my next battle, the kingdom must not die with me. By law Sansa is next in line of succession, so Winterfell and the north would pass to her." His mouth tightened. "To her, and her lord husband. Tyrion Lannister. I cannot allow that. I will not allow that. That dwarf must never have the north."

"No," Catelyn agreed. "You must name another heir, until such time as Jeyne gives you a son." She considered a moment. "Your father's father had no siblings, but his father had a sister who married a younger son of Lord Raymar Royce, of the junior branch. They had three daughters, all of whom wed Vale lordlings. A Waynwood and a Corbray, for certain. The youngest . . . it might have been a Templeton, but . . ."

“Mother.” There was a sharpness in Robb’s tone. “You forget. My father had four sons.”

She had not forgotten; she had not wanted to look at it, yet there it was. “A Snow is not a Stark.”

“Jon’s more a Stark than some lordlings from the Vale who have never so much as set eyes on Winterfell.”

“Jon is a brother of the Night’s Watch, sworn to take no wife and hold no lands. Those who take the black serve for life.”

“So do the knights of the Kingsguard. That did not stop the Lannisters from stripping the white cloaks from Ser Barristan Selmy and Ser Boros Blount when they had no more use for them. If I send the Watch a hundred men in Jon’s place, I’ll wager they find some way to release him from his vows.”

He is set on this. Catelyn knew how stubborn her son could be. “A bastard cannot inherit.”

“Not unless he’s legitimized by a royal decree,” said Robb. “There is more precedent for that than for releasing a Sworn Brother from his oath.”

“Precedent,” she said bitterly. “Yes, Aegon the Fourth legitimized all his bastards on his deathbed. And how much pain, grief, war, and murder grew from that? I know you trust Jon. But can you trust his sons? Or their sons? The Blackfyre pretenders troubled the Targaryens for five generations, until Barristan the Bold slew the last of them on the Stepstones. If you make Jon legitimate, there is no way to turn him bastard again. Should he wed and breed, any sons you may have by Jeyne will never be safe.”

“Jon would never harm a son of mine.”

“No more than Theon Greyjoy would harm Bran or Rickon?”

Grey Wind leapt up atop King Tristifer’s crypt, his teeth bared. Robb’s own face was cold. “That is as cruel as it is unfair. Jon is no Theon.”

“So you pray. Have you considered your sisters? What of their rights? I agree that the north must not be permitted to pass to the Imp, but what of Arya? By law, she comes after Sansa … your own sister, trueborn …”

“… and dead. No one has seen or heard of Arya since they cut Father’s head off. Why do you lie to yourself? Arya’s gone, the same as Bran and Rickon, and they’ll kill Sansa too once the dwarf gets a child from her. Jon is the only brother that remains to me. Should I die without issue, I want him to succeed me as King in the North. I had hoped you would support my choice.”

“I cannot,” she said. “In all else, Robb. In everything. But not in this … this folly. Do not ask it.”

“I don’t have to. I’m the king.” Robb turned and walked off, Grey Wind bounding down from the tomb and loping after him.

—A Storm of Swords - Catelyn V

As you can see from the quote above, Robb and Catelyn were pushing to prevent Sansa or Jon from inheriting Winterfell and the North after Robb. For Robb, the problem was that Sansa was "Lady Lannister," and for Catelyn, the problem was that Jon was a bastard "Snow," and a brother of the Night's Watch.

Ironically, Robb ended up losing Winterfell and the North, and it will be precisely Sansa (the Lannister by marriage) and Jon (the bastard Snow) the ones retaking the ancestral seat and all the lands of House Stark, and I suspect they will do it together.

Indeed, Robb and Catelyn's conversation is also very telling because Robb said: "By law Sansa is next in line of succession, so Winterfell and the north would pass to her". But since Sansa was married to Tyrion Lannister, Robb had to name another heir, Jon.

Robb's reasoning is a contrast to Jon's reaction to the offer of getting Winterfell and the North.  Stannis Baratheon used the same argument (Sansa's marriage to Tyrion Lannister) to convince Jon to accept his offer to become a legitimized Stark and Lord of Winterfell, Stannis even called Sansa “Lady Lannister”, but no matter what, Jon didn’t accept Stannis's offer.

And what was Jon's answer?

“By right Winterfell should go to my sister Sansa.”

—A Dance with Dragons - Jon I

Jon said, “Winterfell belongs to my sister Sansa.”

—A Dance with Dragons - Jon IV

Beautiful, isn't it?

And Jon and Sansa could also produce a new generation of Starks, honoring their late relatives by naming their children Eddard, Robb and Catelyn, the ones that are actually dead, because fortunately Arya, Bran and Rickon are still alive, even if Jon and Sansa believe they are all dead.

She pictured the two of them sitting together in a garden with puppies in their laps, or listening to a singer strum upon a lute while they floated down the Mander on a pleasure barge. If I give him sons, he may come to love me. She would name them Eddard and Brandon and Rickon, and raise them all to be as valiant as Ser Loras. And to hate Lannisters, too. In Sansa's dreams, her children looked just like the brothers she had lost. Sometimes there was even a girl who looked like Arya.

—A Storm of Swords - Sansa II

I would need to steal her if I wanted her love, but she might give me children. I might someday hold a son of my own blood in my arms. A son was something Jon Snow had never dared dream of, since he decided to live his life on the Wall. I could name him Robb. Val would want to keep her sister's son, but we could foster him at Winterfell, and Gilly's boy as well. Sam would never need to tell his lie. We'd find a place for Gilly too, and Sam could come visit her once a year or so. Mance's son and Craster's would grow up brothers, as I once did with Robb.

—A Storm of Swords - Jon XII

Be still my beating heart!

. . .

So if you're wondering if the sad fate of Jeyne Westerling and Robb, who had a similar wish to Sansa and Jon's wishes, to name their children after their late father and siblings, could mean something negative for Jon and Sansa in the future. The answer is no.

[smantisen]

Ned explained quite clearly to Sansa that Joffrey was not a suitable match for her:

“Sweet one,” her father said gently, “listen to me. When you’re old enough, I will make you a match with a high lord who’s worthy of you, someone brave and gentle and strong. This match with Joffrey was a terrible mistake. That boy is no Prince Aemon, you must believe me.”

If Sansa was only going along with the betrothal because her father had ordered it and she trusted him to do the best for her, this should have been enough for her to give up on Joffrey.

As for her hating Joffrey and re-framing reality to cope with being shackled to him, we have her POV and there is no support for this theory there:

At first she thought she hated him for what they'd done to Lady, but after Sansa had wept her eyes dry, she told herself that it had not been Joffrey's doing, not truly. The queen had done it; she was the one to hate, her and Arya. Nothing bad would have happened except for Arya.

She could not hate Joffrey tonight. He was too beautiful to hate. He wore a deep blue doublet studded with a double row of golden lion's heads, and around his brow a slim coronet made of gold and sapphires. His hair was as bright as the metal. Sansa looked at him and trembled, afraid that he might ignore her or, worse, turn hateful again and send her weeping from the table.

It’s clear that Sansa was so much in love with Joffrey - or rather with the idea of Joffrey and all that he represented - that she preferred to ignore reality and blame her sister instead of Joffrey who was actually responsible. Furthermore, as we see later on in the book, Sansa had no fear of vocally disagreeing with her father on the betrothal. So if she truly didn’t want to be married to Joffrey anymore, she wouldn’t have remained silent. And of course, despite seemingly being eager to please and a model of obedience, Sansa had no problem with openly disobeying her father’s instruction by refusing to testify in front of the king. In any case, it should be noted that up to the argument about the betrothal in Sansa III, there is not the slightest hint of Sansa being unhappy at her father’s treatment of her - in fact she never even blames him for killing Lady. So there is no doubt that in re-writing reality to make herself love Joffrey, Sansa was acting not out of self-sacrifice, but rather self-interest.

As for Ned not telling Sansa anything to persuade her that Joffrey was unsuitable, what could he possibly tell that could change her mind? That Joffrey had tried to kill her sister? Ned knew this because of Sansa (and Arya’s) testimony after all, so it would make little sense to tell it to her. In fact, Ned demonstrated considerable patience in his explanation when he would have every right to expect Sansa to understand this herself.

Finally, on the more speculative matter of what her brothers could have told her, one should remember that Jon who saw Joffrey’s nature the clearest, was also the one most distant from her. It would hardly seem fitting for him to share on his own initiative his impression of Joffrey to a sister who dismissed him as “half-brother”. As for Robb, he might have been more willing to share his opinion on the matter, but his obedience to his father’s wishes and Sansa’s obvious happiness with the betrothal would be a good reason for him to desist. And he didn’t really know Sansa that well either (see his reaction to the letter she wrote under Cersei’s dictation), so it’s not surprising that he said nothing.

Ultimately, there is no doubt that Ned, the one responsible for Sansa, did right by her. It’s true that he decided on the betrothal only to support his investigation, but he decided to break that betrothal solely out of concern for Sansa’s well-being (and at considerable risk for the standing of his house, considering Robert’s likely reaction to this decision). If Sansa failed to understand that, this was hardly his fault.

It's always "Sansa was so stupid and naive for not immediately understanding that Joffrey was a total creep" and never "Not one member of her family decided to warn her that their dad had handed her over to a total creep for the rest of her life".

Like, if you want to talk about Sansa "betraying Ned and selling out her family" (which she never did, but never mind), first explain to me how they didn't betray and sell her out first.

[amuelia]

How do you think Roose will meet his demise? Or will he survive? What's your best Roose end game predictions?

Thank you for the question! This will be a long post under the readmore, going into my thoughts on the show ending and exploring what the books may have set up in regards to themes and characterization, as well as a bit of general analysis of Roose' story arc in a Dance with Dragons (and some speculation about Ramsay as well).

If you click on the readmore i will have divided the post into sections with bolded Headers, if you want to only read my specific endgame ideas you can skip ahead to the "His Endgame?" section.

In The Show

The show had him get killed by Ramsay in s6, which informs a lot of the fandom speculation about this storyline.

I am not a fan of the show's scenario as it was both similar to tywin and tyrion as well as a mirror of robb's death; it would also be offscreen in the books since neither of the characters are PoVs and Ramsay would need to do the act in secret. This would ultimately undercut Roose' role and impact, being a death scene that is not very unique and also isn't shown to the reader directly. Since no PoV is even in Winterfell currently, we would just hear of it from afar and not witness the consequences.

The show also has a different dynamic in the Bolton storyline, emphasizing Ramsay as the "main character" of this arc, and elevating him to the main villain for s5-6 to fill Joffrey's shoes as an evil character played by a very charismatic actor. Ramsay's show writing is informed by the needs of a TV setting that wants shocking moments and capitalizes on "fan favourite" actors; his rising importance in the show thus is not necessarily an indicator of his book importance. The show was also missing many central characters like the northern lords and the Frey men in Winterfell.

The show had a tendency to kill off characters early when they wanted to cull storylines or had no plans to adapt more of the character's story (like Stannis, Barristan, possibly the Tyrells...); In Mance Rayder we have the most obvious example, where they killed him off for real in a scene that in the book was a misdirection. We also have characters like Jorah where it appears the showrunners had their own choice of how they want his storyline to end, even if Grrm has his own ending in mind.

"For a long time we wanted Ser Jorah to be there at The Wall in the end," writer Dave Hill says. "The three coming out of the tunnel would be Jon and Jorah and Tormund. But [...] Jorah should have the noble death he craves defending the woman he loves." - Dave Hill for Entertainment Weekly

So a death in the show does not need to be an indicator that the books will feature an equivalent scene, even if it gives a hint as to what may happen. By s5 the show has become its own beast, and the butterfly effects from radical changes they made as well as the different characterizations results in the show having to cater to its own needs in many cases when it gets to resolving a plotline.

"We reconceived the role to make it worthy of the actor's talents." - Benioff and Weiss for the s5 DVD commentary, on Indira Varma's casting as Ellaria

In The Books

(Since this post was getting out of hand in length a lot of these arguments are a little shortened/not as in-depth as i'd like! Feel free to inquire more via ask if something is unclear or you disagree)

In the books i find it hard to make a concrete guess as to how it will end. Occam's razor would be to assume the show sort of got it right and that it will vaguely end the same, which could very well happen and i will not discount the possibility; Ramsay is cruel, desires the Dreadfort rule, and is a suspected kinslayer and has no qualms to commit immoral violence.

"Ramsay killed [his brother]. A sickness of the bowels, Maester Uthor says, but I say poison." - Reek III, aDwD

Reek saw the way Ramsay's mouth twisted, the spittle glistening between his lips. He feared he might leap the table with his dagger in his hand [to attack his father]. - Reek III, aDwD

Arguments against this or for a different endgame come down to interpretations of the themes in the story arc and opinions on dramatic structure/grrm's writing, and are thus very subjective.

The way the story currently is going, Ramsay killing Roose treats Roose almost as a plot device; his death brings no change or development to Ramsay's character as we already know his motivations and cruelty align with such an act, and we can assume that he would feel no remorse about it either. The results of such a scene would be firmly on a story level, as it brings political changes and moves the plot along into a specific direction. Roose himself cannot have any relevant character development about it as he does not have a PoV and we would not be able to witness his reaction from the outside.

“The only thing worth writing about is the human heart in conflict with itself.” - William Faulkner, often quoted by Grrm

Further, killing his father is very difficult to pull off in secret (Roose is frequently described as very cautious, and employs many guardsmen). And even if Ramsay pulls it off (people often interpret Ramsay as Roose' blind spot, assuming he might be caught by surprise, not expecting Ramsay would bite the hand that feeds him), Roose is the one that holds his entire alliance together; The Freys would be alienated by Ramsay who would antagonize Walda and her son as his rivals, The Ryswell bloc appears to dislike Ramsay (especially Barbrey), and the other northmen are implied to not even like Roose himself. Killing Roose would quickly combust the entire northern faction, and hinder Ramsay's further plans (another reason why I am not convinced of a book version of the "Battle of Bastards"). Though this might of course, if we look at it from the other side, be grrm's plan to quickly dissolve this plot and move the northern story forwards.

"Ramsay will kill [Walda's children], of course. [...] [She] will grieve to see them die, though." - Reek III, aDwD

"How many of our grudging friends do you imagine we'd retain if the truth were known? Only Lady Barbrey, whom you would turn into a pair of boots … inferior boots." - Reek III, aDwD

"Fear is what keeps a man alive in this world of treachery and deceit. Even here in Barrowton the crows are circling, waiting to feast upon our flesh. The Cerwyns and the Tallharts are not to be relied on, my fat friend Lord Wyman plots betrayal, and Whoresbane … the Umbers may seem simple, but they are not without a certain low cunning. Ramsay should fear them all, as I do." - Reek III, aDwD

Roose' death at Ramsay's hand also removes him thematically from the Red Wedding, as we can assume such a death might have happened regardless of his participation in the event (seeing as Ramsay is getting provoked by Roose constantly in normal dialogue, and has a general violent disposition). Roose already took Ramsay in before aGoT started, and married Walda very early in the war, which is already most of the buildup that the show's scenario had. It also has little to do with the The North Remembers plot except set dressing, since the northmen are presumably neither collaborating with/egging on Ramsay nor would they appreciate the development.

Themes: Ned Stark and the rule over the North

Roose is treated as a foil to Eddard; They are often contrasted in morals and ruling styles, while also having many superficial similarities that further connect them (they are seen as cold by people, grey eyed, patriarchs of rivalling northern houses, etc...).

Pale as morning mist, his eyes concealed more than they told. Jaime misliked those eyes. They reminded him of the day at King's Landing when Ned Stark had found him seated on the Iron Throne. - Jaime IV, aSoS

They both have a "bastard son" that they handle very differently; Roose treating Ramsay in the way that is seen as common in their society. Ramsay and Jon as a comparison are meant to show that Catelyn had a reason to see a bastard as a threat (since Domeric was antagonized by his bastard brother), but also shows that her suggested plan for Jon would not have stopped any danger either (as Ramsay being raised away from the castle didn't help).

And if his seed quickened, she expected he would see to the child's needs. He did more than that. The Starks were not like other men. Ned brought his bastard home with him, and called him "son" for all the north to see. - Catelyn II, aGoT

"Each year I sent the woman some piglets and chickens and a bag of stars, on the understanding that she was never to tell the boy who had fathered him. A peaceful land, a quiet people, that has always been my rule." - Reek III, aDwD

It appears to me that Roose' story functions in some ways as an inversion to Ned. He makes an attempt to grab a power he was not destined to (becoming warden of the north), where Ned did not want the responsiblity thrust upon him ("It was all meant for Brandon. [...] I never asked for this cup to pass to me." - Cat II, aGoT). Where Ned rules successfully and his northmen honor his legacy ("What do you think passes through their heads when they hear the new bride weeping? Valiant Ned's precious little girl." - The Turncloak, aDwD), the Boltons are largely hated and there are several plots conspiring against them ("Let me bathe in Bolton blood before I die." - The King's Prize, aDwD).

It seems possible to me that in terms of their family and legacy, Roose might also live through an inverted version of Ned's story; where Ned died first, leaving his family behind, Roose already lived to see the death of his wives and trueborn heir, and might thus also live to see Ramsay's death. Ned leaves behind well raised children and a North who still respects his name, and even though he dies it will presumably all be "in good hands" in the end (in broad strokes, obviously this is all much more morally complex). Roose however built up a bad and toxic legacy, and also built his way of life around evading consequences; it makes sense to me that he would be forced by the story to finally endure all the consequences of his actions and witness the fall of his house firsthand. After all we already have Tywin who fulfils the purpose of dying before his children while his legacy falls to ruins, and a Feast for Crows explores this aspect thoroughly.

Roose' arc in A Dance With Dragons

The story repeatedly builds up the situation unravelling around Roose, and him slowly losing a grip on it and becoming more stressed and anxious.

Reek wondered if Roose Bolton ever cried. If so, do the tears feel cold upon his cheeks? - Reek II, aDwD

Roose Bolton said nothing at all. But Theon Greyjoy saw a look in his pale eyes that he had never seen before—an uneasiness, even a hint of fear. [...] That night the new stable collapsed beneath the weight of the snow that had buried it. - a Ghost in Winterfell, aDwD

Lady Walda gave a shriek and clutched at her lord husband's arm. "Stop," Roose Bolton shouted. "Stop this madness." His own men rushed forward as the Manderlys vaulted over the benches to get at the Freys. - Theon I, aDwD

It also directly presents him as a parallel to Theon's rule in aCoK, who similarly experienced a very unpopular rule and his subjects slowly turning against him. Presumably, the point of this comparison will not just be "Ramsay comes in at the end and unexpectedly whacks them on the head". Both Theon and Roose invited Ramsay into their lives, giving him more power than he deserves, and causing Ramsay to make choices that increasingly alienate others from them (the death of the miller's boys for example has repercussions for both Theon and Roose). Grrm is likely steering this towards a difference in how they will deal with this situation.

It all seemed so familiar, like a mummer show that he had seen before. Only the mummers had changed. Roose Bolton was playing the part that Theon had played the last time round, and the dead men were playing the parts of Aggar, Gynir Rednose, and Gelmarr the Grim. Reek was there too, he remembered, but he was a different Reek, a Reek with bloody hands and lies dripping from his lips, sweet as honey. - a Ghost in Winterfell, aDwD

"Stark's little wolflings are dead," said Ramsay, sloshing some more ale into his cup, "and they'll stay dead. Let them show their ugly faces, and my girls will rip those wolves of theirs to pieces. The sooner they turn up, the sooner I kill them again." - The elder Bolton sighed. "Again? Surely you misspeak. You never slew Lord Eddard's sons, those two sweet boys we loved so well. That was Theon Turncloak's work, remember? How many of our grudging friends do you imagine we'd retain if the truth were known?" - Reek III, aDwD

Roose' arc is deeply connected to the relations he shares to the other northern lords, which has been heavily impacted by the Red Wedding. It stands to reason that they are going to be an important part of his downfall, and we see many hints of them plotting to betray him.

The north remembers, Lord Davos. The north remembers, and the mummer's farce is almost done. My son is home." - Davos IV, aDwD

Themes: Stannis and kinslaying

The books set up Roose and Stannis as foils as well; Both lack charisma and have trouble winnning the people's support, Stannis and Roose both parallel and contrast Ned, Stannis appears as a "lesser Robert" where Roose is a "lesser Ned", Stannis represents the fire where Roose represents the ice, both struggle over dominion in a land that doesnt particularly want either of them, etc... What i find interesting is how they are contrasted over kinslaying:

"Only Renly could vex me so with a piece of fruit. He brought his doom on himself with his treason, but I did love him, Davos. I know that now. I swear, I will go to my grave thinking of my brother's peach." - Davos II, aCoK

"I should've had the mother whipped and thrown her child down a well … but the babe did have my eyes." [...] "Now [Domeric's] bones lie beneath the Dreadfort with the bones of his brothers, who died still in the cradle, and I am left with Ramsay. Tell me, my lord … if the kinslayer is accursed, what is a father to do when one son slays another?" - Reek III, aCoK

Stannis is set up as someone who is very thorough and strict in following his own code and his "duty", even if he does not like what it forces him to do.

Stannis ground his teeth again. "I never asked for this crown. Gold is cold and heavy on the head, but so long as I am the king, I have a duty . . . If I must sacrifice one child to the flames to save a million from the dark . . . Sacrifice . . . is never easy, Davos. Or it is no true sacrifice. Tell him, my lady." - Davos IV, aSoS

The armorer considered that a moment. "Robert was the true steel. Stannis is pure iron, black and hard and strong, yes, but brittle, the way iron gets. He'll break before he bends." - Jon I, aCoK

Roose however is frequently characterized as someone who tries to get as much as he can while avoiding negative consequences, and who does not have a consistent moral code and instead bends rules to his benefit to be the most comfortable to him.

It is often theorized that Stannis will end up burning his daughter Shireen; the Ramsay issue might then serve to contrast the two men. If Grrm intends it to be compared by the reader, I can see it going two ways: Either Roose will be forced to finally act in a drastic way after avoiding his responsibility in regards to Ramsay and he will be forced to get rid of his son, making him break the only moral hurdle he has presented adhering to during the story (though analyzing his character, the kinslaying taboo is probably less a sign of moral fortitude and more him using the guise of morals to explain a selfish motivation). Or he might not act against Ramsay and suffer the consequences, presenting an interesting moral situation where some readers might consider his action "better" or more relatable than Stannis', breaking up the otherwise very black and white moral comparison between the two men. It serves as an interesting conflict of the morality of kinslaying compared to what readers might see as a moral obligation of getting rid of a monster such as Ramsay; contrasting Shireen whose death would not be seen as worth it by most. Ramsay as a bastard (who was almost killed at birth if he hadnt been able to prove his paternity) also makes for an interesting verbal parallel with the bastard Edric Storm, and might be used for a look at the utilitarian principle of killing a child (baby ramsay/edric) to save countless people from suffering that underpinned Edric's story.

"As Faulkner says, all of us have the capacity in us for great good and for great evil, for love but also for hate. I wanted to write those kinds of complex character in a fantasy, and not just have all the good people get together to fight the bad guy." - Grrm

"Robert, I ask you, what did we rise against Aerys Targaryen for, if not to put an end to the murder of children?" - Eddard VIII, aGoT

"If Joffrey should die . . . what is the life of one bastard boy against a kingdom?" - "Everything," said Davos, softly. - Davos V, aSoS

However Grrm decides to present these conflicts or which actions the characters will take in the end, it will result in interesting discussion and analysis for the readers.

His Endgame?

Looking at the trends of the past books, it is probably going to be hard to predict any specific outcome; every book introduces new characters and plot elements that were impossible to predict from the last book even if their thematic importance or setup was aptly foreshadowed.

Roose has a lot of plot importance and characterization that has, in my opinion, not yet been properly resolved in a way that would be unique and poignant to the specific purpose his character appears to fulfil. However I also have a bias in that i did not like the show's writing of that scene which makes me averse to see a version of it in the books, and i really like Roose as a character and want to see him have more scenes in the next book(s). This leads me to discount plot speculation that cuts his character arc short offscreen early. Roose is only a side character; however, i have trust in grrm's writing abilities and that he would give him a proper sendoff that feels satisfying to a fan of the character.

"…even the [characters] who are complete bastards, nasty, twisted, deeply flawed human beings with serious psychological problems… When I get inside their skin and look out through their eyes, I have to feel a certain — if not sympathy, certainly empathy for them. I have to try to perceive the world as they do, and that creates a certain amount of affection." — George Martin

Considering my earlier analyis, there is a case to be made for Roose killing Ramsay; however it appears grrm might have a different endgame in mind for Ramsay, foreshadowed in Chett's prologue:

There'd be no lord's life for the leechman's son, no keep to call his own, no wives nor crowns. Only a wildling's sword in his belly, and then an unmarked grave. The snow's taken it all from me . . . the bloody snow . . . - Chett, aSoS

I tend to think something might happen to Roose/the Bolton bloc later in the book that would cause Ramsay to attempt to flee the scene again like he did back in aCoK fleeing Rodrik's justice; perhaps Ramsay is sent out to battle but then flees it like a coward, or he sees his cause as lost. This time, the fleeing and potentially disguised Ramsay would not make it out to safety though, and get killed without being recognized as Ramsay, dying forgotten. This would serve as dramatic irony since Ramsay so strongly desired to be recognized and respected as a Lord of Bolton, without being too on the nose.

As for Roose, i could see him getting captured and somehow brought to justice (either when someone takes Winterfell or in some sort of battle). I see it unlikely that he will be backstabbed like Robb was, because it seems very "eye for an eye" and ultimately doesn't teach much of a lesson except "he had it coming"; But the various people conspiring against him could lead to his capture by betraying him (giving a payoff to the northern conspiracies and the red wedding). I would find a scene of him standing trial interesting since i believe we didn't have one of these for a true non-pov villain yet, and it would be an interesting confrontation that he cannot escape from (he also loves to talk so it would be a good read to see him make a case for himself).

I assume Roose will be out of the picture when the Other plot finally properly kicks into gear (whether dead or "in prison"). With Stannis as a false Azor Ahai and Roose as a false Other (with his pale, cold features), their struggle in the north seems to be a representation of the false "Game of Thrones" that distracts people from the "real threat" of the Others.

As always this is just my opinion, and it could all go very differently in the books! There could always be something that completely uproots my analysis and goes into a direction i did not expect from the material we had; But i have fate that Grrm as a writer will deliver and give me something i can be satisfied with.

[bowieexaminprogress]

Directorial Nuggets

Woensdag 13:23 part 1

I have watched this clip a few times and I have to say that my first thoughts about it were different from the ones I had after watching it a couple of times and I think it has to do with the fact that I started watching it more objectively as I was paying attention to the details after my initial reaction. So here are my thoughts about it.

We see Yasmina and her mum shopping. I love that Yasmina’s facial expression here is the exact same we saw yesterday while she was watching the tv series. She looks uninterested, almost exhausted, she is disconnected again. Her mum immediately picks up on that and asks her if she is alright. The only person from her family to do that. Note that this is exactly what Yasmina confronted Elias for not doing. I love how her mum slowly tries to make her open up. “I miss you a little”, “I feel like your mind isn’t really here”, “Should I be worried?”, “You don’t tell me anything anymore”. Note how Yasmina’s disposition changes during the last two questions she appears snappy again. She doesn’t see that as an attempt to offer help but as an interrogation. From her mum’s words we realise that they actually had a close relationship before and maybe a wall was raised between them just recently. So I think this is happening not because Yasmina doesn’t trust her mother necessarily but because her own frustration and prejudice has led her to have a distorted view of the people around her and close off. We have seen that with everyone so far. Remember we are in Yasmina’s POV. We don’t see the world objectively. And everytime we saw her parents it was during moments where Yasmina was highly stressed.

And then Sobbe appears. Now this sequence is where my initial thoughts morphed a little bit and I started adding more layers into my thought process. Look how we see Sander and Robbe for the first time.

They don’t hold hands, they walk together and talk. If we didn’t know that they are a couple we could have easily thought that they are friends. I think this is important in order to try and peel off the layers of Yasmina’s mum. Look at the way she looks at them immediately.

She doesn’t know who they are, she doesn’t know that they are a couple and she immediately appears distanced, wary. Her body language remains the same even when there is an indication that Robbe and Sander are actually a couple when Robbe flirts with him here.

I can’t help but think that this reaction had nothing to do with the fact that they are a queer couple, but it was mostly driven by the fact that they are Yasmina’s ‘Belgian friends’ who flirt so openly in front of someone who is older than them. So my question is what is the exact issue? Does her mum have a problem that all of her friends are Belgian and non Muslim because she would love for Yasmina to at least engage with some people who are closer to her culture or does her mum doesn’t want her to have Belgian friends at all because she thinks that there cannot be a connection between those cultures? Her comment about Belgians having habits and customs that don’t fit Yasmina actually was not about homosexuality at all but about how Belgians carry themselves in public, how they display intimacy, how they choose to live their lives that are so different from what Yasmina is used to. Is it just Yasmina thinking that her mums comment was targeting the fact that they are queer. This clip doesn’t make it absolutely clear and leaves everything to interpretation in the eyes of each viewer because we never hear her mum elaborate on her thoughts she just says something and then gets cut off by Yasmina. But if you look closer the answers are there. Yasmina brings up issues of homosexuality and Muslim/non Muslim marriage in Islam and that she doesn’t feel that the interpretation of those issues fit her. And then her mother asks Yasmina if she has a Belgian boyfriend something that Yasmina immediately debunks. Her mum made no comment about homosexuality at all. She concentrated more on the fact that Yasmina might have a boyfriend who is Belgian.

This clip can be extremely problematic in my opinion if it doesn’t get followed by other clips further in the season that will counteract the notions implied here. They can easily deep into extreme stereotypes about the Muslim community because Yasmina’s view at the moment is so stereotypical. Homophobia, reversed racism. What I want to see wtfock doing now is to give me clips where her mum/dad are given time to voice their own truth without Yasmina’s frustrated, prejudiced POV in the way so we can finally see where they stand in all the issues above and also because of all the nods towards homophobia and Islam (here through Yasmina’s interpretation, Badr’s story) I need them to give us a representation of the big part of the Muslim community that is embracing the LGBTQIA+ community not only through Yasmina but other people as well and queer Muslim kids that live happy by being openly queer. Because when you are going there you have to show the whole picture at the end.