#i separate how i interpret Their Canon and My Canon sometimes.

[ct-hardcase]

one thing I have noticed in the last few years of discourse about star wars canon is the attitude from some parts of fandom, where when people go "hey, I don't like this problematic aspect of canon/I don't like that this canon significantly contradicts the other", others will respond, stating that star wars is a tapestry of stories, and that it's fine, actually, because you can just take the parts you want and/or to just cobble one's own canon together from whatever.

this isn't bad advice per se, and if that's someone's preferred way of interpreting canon or dealing with discrepancies, I'm genuinely happy they reached that solution (hell, I even do it myself sometimes—rey mind-tricking finn and poe in the tros novelization is something I absolutely choose to ignore on account of it being ooc and not in the movie), but the majority of the time, I like treating canon as a puzzle that I can put together, and when some of the pieces simply can't fit right, or if there's blatant disrespect to the other stories in the tapestry (hi, caleb in tbb), I don't think it's wrong to be pissed at that and expect the corporate entity managing the product to do better.

[thickest-slimiest-malware]

lapidot shippers when learning peridot is confirmed asexual and aromantic: i do not see it

[burlowbeanie]

Also, look at Apollo's response to Percy insisting all demigods be claimed and taken to CHB just a chapter or two prior:

"They won't be left out in the world on their own at the mercy of monsters. I want them claimed and brought to camp so they can be trained right, and survive." "Now, wait just a moment," Apollo said, but I was on a roll. (TLO 353)

To Percy at the time, and on a Doylist level in terms of where the series was at with his characterization in fuckin' 2009, his protestations come across as typical self-absorbed drivel in the face of being accused of anything less than perfection. And while him framing his protestations that way fits with his characterization as it emerges in the rest of the series, in light of the wonderful readings that others in this thread have performed there is another level to them, one that spurs him to try to rebuild his foothold in camp asap and damn the consequences.

As the previous rb mentioned, Apollo has just lost several children to this war. He has just had it driven home in the worst way possible that CHB may not, in fact, be the safest place for his kids; it may be a streamlined way of giving them to Zeus to use as pawns in his power struggles. But now, Percy is forcing the gods' hands. Percy is institutionalizing CHB and binding all of the gods to it. This makes complete sense from Percy's perspective. He is a kid, camp is his home, and he is in the moment where he is speaking feeling fairly lenient and well-disposed towards the gods. He is willing to assume the best of them, willing to forgive Hermes, willing to ignore Ares' abuse (side note: I hate that motherfucker, get the fuck away from clarisse, I stg i will kill him), and willing to overlook the atrocities he has learned Zeus and Hades committed. He just wants the gods to be part of their kids' lives, at least enough for the kids to understand what's going on. And yeah that's a better deal overall for the half-bloods than they've had so far. But from Apollo's perspective, given his waning power within camp, Zeus' growing influence, and the recent fates of his children, jesus christ that is a terrifying ultimatum.

Building on what everyone else in this thread has established, Zeus has been elbowing him out of camp, repeatedly using it as a blackmail chip to get heroes to do what he wants them to. (I'm thinking of the way the weather reflects his threats in TLT and TTC, the way Percy is pressured into quests through fear of what Zeus will do to his friends and to their sanctuary). And now Percy is giving Apollo no choice - he *will* keep turning over his kids. No wiggle room. Camp's size and influence seems like it has been fading over the past years. Many demigods are said to have "disappeared"; not died, just not come back after a summer. I wonder how much of that could have been those who cared about them - parents both mortal and immortal - wanting to keep them out of the action, preferring their chances against monsters to their chances in a war. Point being, camp has not been the default in the time leading up to the Titan War. Not being at camp is dangerous, but being at camp has been dangerous as well.

Percy wants camp to be the default. Percy wants there to be systems in place, a safety net for demigods to rely upon. And he's so so right to want that. But he is a kid and he does not fully recognize (or want to recognize, understandably) how fucked it is, how capricious the safety net can be (the conditions of Zeus' protection), how it is paid for in blood (the quests, the unnecessary dangers, the poorly-planned 'training exercises'), how there is so much room for abuse within it (Tantalus, Mr. D at his worst, bullying on an inter-camper level with Clarisse, Drew, Sherman). But, at least to some extent, Apollo does, even he pretends not to. So when his hand is forced, he immediately moves to try to have some oversight of camp, some more involvement, to build up some of his power to protect or at least monitor it more. He instates Rachel as oracle immediately after the council concludes before anyone has time to react. Camp Half-Blood has been (re-?)established as Thee place for Greek demigods, and if that is inevitable then god damn Apollo going to put all his effort into being a part of it again rather than letting Zeus continue to alternately manipulate and abandon it uncontested.

oo now im interested in that apollo is chb'd patron thing would you care to elaborate on that??

@stereden also asked this! There’s not so much canon for this as some of the other things I’ve talked about but there’s still a few things to say on the topic, and not only am I going to talk about him being the patron, I’m going to talk about how that works with the things that happen with CHB during the PJO series, and of course because we’re talking about Apollo, there’s the odd little titbit from TOA that makes its way into this, too.

A lot of this will be extrapolation, but I’ve done my best to keep more floating headcanons out of it, so this should at least all stem convincingly from canon.

I’m going to address two things under this umbrella, because I think they’re related and also because I find them fascinating: Apollo as the patron god of CHB, and Apollo’s loss of jurisdiction over CHB by the events of canon.

So, Apollo and the patronage of CHB. While Camp Half-Blood Confidential is pretty goofy and daft in tone, it gives us a few important little nuggets of information regarding the founding of the camp, namely that it was Apollo’s idea - or at the very least, Apollo foresaw that it would happen/needed to happen.

Continua a leggere

[kahluah]

*puts hand up* sorry I’m very new here what’s the context with what’s happening with the tag war??

Alright, I will give my run down, but I will not be naming any blog names on either side even if I have the info and the action was net positive. I just like to use my blog to scroll and reblog for the most part and refuse to embroil myself in the drama more than just giving my view on it as a bystander. One that definitely has an opinion on the events, but also as someone who would rather curate my own experience than fight.

So all this fighting that is going on, it used to just happen in the normal "Jiang Cheng" tag because back then there was no "canon Jiang Cheng" tag; it had not been created yet. (By that I mean it was not a tag used as a tag, Tumblr's shitty search algorithm might still show posts if one typed it in to the search bar because those posts had the words 'canon', 'Jiang', and 'Cheng' in the tags separately, but there would not be posts with "#canon Jiang Cheng" because nobody normally creates a post with a tag like that when "#Jiang Cheng" was suffice. Sometimes I see irrelevant posts in the canon Jiang Cheng tag, but the actual tag isn't on the post, the tags just happen to have all three words in them. Those I ignore because that is Tumblr's fault, not the poster.)

The fighting was between people that like the character and prefer to see the good in him and the interpretation of his character, and those that may or may not like the character (just because you like a character does not mean you need to defend their every action after all) but do not share that opinion of his character and have a more neutral or negative portrayal by contrast. The former also tended to favor or have only read the novel as it is the source material for all other adaptations.

Now things really came to a head when hate and threats were being thrown about on posts that were just quotes from the book showing the negative actions of Jiang Cheng. The people posting the quotes were basically told "if you hate the character why don't you just tag the post as anti-JC?!" but is it really right to call those anti posts when they were posting how the character acts in the source material? That is the character. That is how he acted. Look it is in the book! The character really did that! It is not somebody's negative headcanon that the character may act like that, it is something the character actually did. Personally I can not consider that as an anti character post, and neither did the people who made posts like that.

But things did get heated enough that some people finally took a step back and said "Fine. You want us to make our own space to make these posts so that you do not have to see us talk about JC this way? We will. It will be #canon Jiang Cheng and you can block it if you don't want to see the posts." Was the name picked in the spirit of schadenfreude? Very probable, but it is also not an incorrect name as the people who wanted to use it base their opinion on the novel. But the point was that the tag was created so that people now had their own space to make the posts they wanted and those that did not want to see it could block the tag. Curate your own experience; we can block tags on this site for a reason and advertising tags to block is a courtesy. (Because as said previously, the search here sucks, because the posts contain the character's name they are still likely to show up in the main tag, but block the newly created tag and you will not see those posts either way). Could the other people come into the tag in good faith and make arguments with textual support? Yeah, that was welcomed, but in the spirit of debate they should expect rebuttal. Was that what happened? No.

No instead what happened was basically this meme

They did not like the name chosen for the tag. They read the novel too and still believe that JC is good, so they should be able to use the tag too! Never mind the fact that the tag was made so they could block the posts they didn't want to see. So that they can go on with their days no longer having to deal with the people they constantly fought with. No. Instead of curating the experience of this website, they would get so hung up on the fact that there was now a tag called #canon Jiang Cheng in use that they had to use it too to defend JC from the people that post 'negative' things about him; even if it is novel text!

So while the fighting didn't stop, it did get slightly better because not everyone felt the need to jump into the new tag to defend their fave. Some people actually did curate their experience. Plus there is a block button and people do use it, so things got to a point where I would say it was relatively stable even if there was still fights here and there. (But once again I lurk, I do not participate. Things may not have been the same for more outspoken people).

But then a certain muskrat bought Twitter and a chunk of the fandom there fled here. That's when the main push to "reclaim the tag" and the new influx of people hopping into the tag to argue and defend their fave appeared. These people did not know why the tag was made, they just saw blogs that they liked telling people about the "JC-antis" that made it and how with the new people pouring into the Tumblr fandom from twitter, they had a chance to flood it and reclaim it. And since then the fighting has not really stopped.

As for what has happened in the past few days, you have JC defenders flooding the tag with fan art (not canon), screen caps from CLQ (not canon), and screenshots of a sentence or two from the novel (canon, but usually out of context or lacking additional lines that go on to rebut what was previously said) in the tag and the people who made the tag for a specific purpose getting mad about the spam. (I block so I have no clue how big the influx was or whatever but there was definitely like at least 3 new people I had to block). So when they made posts venting the anger, you got JC defenders coming back to them and going "But I never sent any hate or harassment! I just used the tag to talk about the canon character!" And perhaps they didn't, but these people in their defense always ignore and never respond to the question of why they are in the tag instead of blocking it because that is what the tag was made for. Instead they come back with "Well if you want to talk about JC that way, why don't you post in the anti tag or make your own tag!"... Remember that meme picture I used above. Yup.

The tag war began because people did not like negative posts about JC in the main character tag for JC. When told to use the anti tag or make a new tag, a new tag was made, but instead of curating the experience the stans of JC got so tilted at the name of the tag that they decided that they would come into the tag and continue the fight instead of just blocking it. Twitter fallout made the fighting worse. And now we have come full circle to the JC stans once again telling people to just use the anti tag or make their own tag.

[neverenoughmarauders]

Hi! what are your thoughts on the ever present fanon idea that James repeatedly asks Lily to date him before she finally concedes (he pesters her tbh)?

I feel like this throws a lot of people off of Jily as it just adds a bit of creepiness to the ship and makes it weirder for Lily to get with James considering this behaviour, after what must’ve been a fair amount of reckoning since he tormented her childhood best friend for years. Like even if Lily hated Snape at this point I don’t think she’d forget how James treated him easily and let James off the hook without a proper reckoning so adding pestering behaviour to that dynamic just makes their relationship more unlikely ya know. Honestly just tryna find reasons why fandom in general dislike Jily more than jegulus atp.

Hi anon

This idea that James repeatedly asked Lily out I think far precedes Jegulus. In my youth, the few fics I engaged with (often because my best friend kindly helped translate them) seemed to position it as a very cute thing - although it always annoyed me even then, because it has no basis in canon. The day and age where James persistently asking Lily out was seen as cute are over, and now this fanon idea is presented in favour of Jegulus or Snily.

Actually, as an aside, in general the marauders' story is one that has aged poorly... You can't really view the marauders without the lens of it being the 70s and during a wizarding world war - but people do and it completely changes everything.

How do I feel about it?

I feel the same way about this as I do with all fanon ideas that get presented as evidence. It drives me up the wall no end. We all get carried away with our own interpretations and that's fine, but if people cannot separate canon from interpretation of canon /headcanon from fanon, how can we have an informed debate?

Canon:

"Why are you so obsessed with them anyway? Why do you care what they’re doing at night?” “I’m just trying to show you they’re not as wonderful as everyone seems to think they are.” ... “I didn’t mean — I just don’t want to see you made a fool of — He fancies you, James Potter fancies you!” The words seemed wrenched from him against his will. “And he’s not ... everyone thinks ... big Quidditch hero — ” Snape’s bitterness and dislike were rendering him incoherent, and Lily’s eyebrows were traveling farther and farther up her forehead.

My interpretation of canon:

The conversation between Snape and Lily to me indicates that it is a relatively new development (which means sometimes not long before/after the whomping willow incident). At this point I think it's hard to argue that James has asked Lily out - why on earth would Snape feel the need to point out that James fancies her if this be the case.

Canon:

“I will if you go out with me, Evans,” said James quickly. “Go on ... Go out with me, and I’ll never lay a wand on old Snivelly again.” ... “I wouldn’t go out with you if it was a choice between you and the giant squid,” said Lily. “Bad luck, Prongs,” said Sirius briskly, turning back to Snape. ... “There you go,” he said, as Snape struggled to his feet again, “you’re lucky Evans was here, Snivellus — ” “I don’t need help from filthy little Mudbloods like her!” Lily blinked. “Fine,” she said coolly. “I won’t bother in future. And I’d wash your pants if I were you, Snivellus.” ... “What is it with her?” said James, trying and failing to look as though this was a throwaway question of no real importance to him. “Reading between the lines, I’d say she thinks you’re a bit conceited, mate,” said Sirius. “Right,” said James, who looked furious now, “right"

Also canon: Lily found James attractive at this point, despite not liking him very much. It was confirmed in an interview, in response to whether or not Lily hated James, but as we know even from the source text:

“How come she married him?” Harry asked miserably. “She hated him!” “Nah, she didn’t,” said Sirius.

My interpretation of canon:

James is being an immature d***. That aside, nothing about this dialogue suggests to me that James has ever asked Lily out before. Why? James looks FURIOUS at the rejection, he does not give off the vibes of someone who has routinely been rejected by Lily.

There's also the small stuff which doesn't by itself mean anything but which adds up, such as Sirius' and Snape's reaction. Sirius doesn't come across as someone who has seen this a hundred times. He's obviously far less affected or surprised by the outcome, but that's not the same thing. Snape completely loses it with Lily - why? It's not the first time James and Sirius has bullied him, but if it's the first time Snape has listened to James ask her out - worse still, use him to ask her out, he might be furious. He told her so, didn't he? James Potter fancied her.

My headcanon:

We know Lily found James attractive, and that James is shocked to be rejected. We also know Snape is nervous that Lily might be falling for James: 'I’m just trying to show you they’re not as wonderful as everyone seems to think they are' Why? Probably because by now Lily and James have flirted a little on and off. If Lily spoke the way she spoke to James by the lake - if James routinely asked Lily out - then the conversation between Severus and Lily makes no sense.

If people want to like Jegulus, they can. Personally, I think Jily holds everything I want from an "enemies" to lovers trope, and if I want another trope it's usually best friends to lovers, and I've got prongsfoot for that. Or if I am feeling like I want both, there's always Jilypad <3

[starrysilvalley]

Time for the secondary protagonist of this tale, Emmet! He may have a familiar face— if only he had the same understanding of himself. He occupies more of a Virgil/mentor archetype, and within the Pokémon games universe he would be the closest to a Professor role.

To emphasize again, this project takes place in distant future of the Pokémon in-game universe. The plotlines of previous games are all considered canon up until Pokémon Scarlet and Violet. Anything past that is considered non-canon within the context of Spectrum. Emmet’s place in particular was based on the context of PLA and my own interpretations/theories on the subject of the twins when playing it (mostly answering questions like “where is Emmet”, “is he in present-day Unova or another time/place entirely”, “what happened to cause the separation”, etc.)

✨⭐️✨

Emmet is an amnesiac and fugitive against the New Unova League, as well as a surrogate father to Una. Despite being a verrry blunt and open book, Emmet remains a bit of a mystery. His earliest memory is waking up in the custody of the Pokémon League with nothing but his ratty coat and hat that just so happened to have his name stitched inside. Interregators told him he was found with illegal possessions (what type of possessions, he still doesn't know) and had been conspiring to eliminate the Champion. It was only through an intervention that he was able to escape with a mysterious little girl in tow. To this day, he still has no idea where he came from before his captivity or if he has any roots somewhere in New Unova. Although there will always remain the desire to know his true self, under the current circumstances, Emmet is focused more on his found family in Una and his business partner Fajra.

Due to his experiences, Emmet has a tendency to be more reserved… at least, sometimes. He is more mischievous than he first appears and typically uses this to his advantage when faced with more sketchy characters. He is very observant, but learned that his commentary can get him into trouble. It also may just be that he has become more restrained with his trickster side in order to show a good example to the young rascal in his charge. If he wants her to follow his safety guidelines, he should probably learn to follow them himself, right?

Emmet currently only has one Pokémon— a Neo Variant Liepard. If he had any other Pokémon prior to his amnesia, he has no way of knowing where they are or what they were. He acquired Liepard during his incarceration, but he’s never spoken on the specifics of how he acquired her. Regardless, their experiences together led to a strong comradery between them. Liepard is almost always out of her pokéball and flanking his side. For whatever reason, Emmet never pursued acquiring more Pokémon and seems to avoid Pokémon battles altogether. He’s never made it clear why this is the case. However, on the rare occasion where he and Liepard do battle, they are notoriously ruthless and almost perfectly in-sync. At the very least, he has shown to have a strong knowledge of battling, even if he doesn't seek it out.

I currently do not have as many sketches of Emmet as I do Una since I'm building Una from the ground u, and I struggle to find a design/style I like for him. This sketch of the pair and their Pokémon is one of my favorites.

My one other drawing I liked was an even chibi-er version of him (I don't usually draw in chibi style, but its proven to be the easiest to use), including some character notes from the time.

I've gone back and forth on a LOT of his character since I wanted to have his character explore a twist in the themes originally given to him by the creators. I know there are theories that Emmet is meant to embody truth while his brother embodies ideals, so its been an interesting challenge to work with this character in the dystopian context where truth is oppressed and often requires characters to abandon honesty. Its also difficult because Emmet is known for his optimism and I don't want to take that from him, even in a dystopian context. I believe his upbeat/mischievous nature helps him stand out from his brother, and quite frankly, I think even dystopian worlds could use some hope. I'm just more use to writing Ingo characters rather than Emmets. I'm hoping I can do this little guy justice :’)

[batmanisagatewaydrug]

one of my batfam hot takes is that alfred having a very kind and understanding grandfather-like role is a boring spin on the character and lacks a lot of nuance around his backstory.

like he is a classically trained british butler which means he very likely comes from a working class family. and like, as a working class brit myself, i sometimes find the kindly, well-mannered grandfather thing grating because, a lot of white, working class men his age are unfortunately not nice people. some of them are like my great grandad was a really great guy, but hes really the only one i know who is or was not awful.

because their generation werent as exactly raised with ideals about mental health and emotional regulation. a lot of them were traumatised due to ww2 either because they saw it firsthand when they were like 15, they were old enough to remember things like rationing and the blitz, and a lot of them lost their dads in the war.

i dont expect american writers to understand how much ww2 affected britain (modern britain is still so steeped in it, its insane) and that generation specifically, BUT id love to see that explored more with alfred. like depending on where he grew up, he would likely have been separated from his family during the blitz and sent off to the countryside like most of the kids in cities were, (this is how narnia starts) and like, a lot of them were horrifically abused or used as free labour. a lot of them also lost parents and never got to say goodbye to them. many came back to destroyed homes. some kids also remained in the city or their parents requested them back so theyd experience the blitz first hand and would know the sign of air raid siren meant they might die that night.

you can see how a lot of that generation were permanently scarred. and for a few decades now, alfred would have been part of that generation.

plus he was also a secret service officer which is just like more opportunities to be traumatised and more reason for him to not be this gentle old man whos in touch with his emotions.

and like, as a classically trained butler, he would likely be more reserved because you know, thats how he was trained. also british men that age would also likely be very hands off in regards to emotions.

but the biggest reason as to why the gentle, kind grandfather take doesnt really make sense is that he raised bruce wayne.

like bruce has a whole slew of emotional issues and problems, and obviously some of that is going to come from alfred raising him because you know, thats kinda how that works. i know a lot of batfam folks want bruce to be this great dad, so i guess their take on alfred fits that, but canonically, bruce wayne is an emotional mess and not the best father figure at the best of times.

you cannot look at that bruce wayne and tell me alfred did a good job.

listen, this shouldn't even be a hot take. it's just an opinion that differs from the most popular interpretation of Alfred as an endlessly giving grandmotherly old man.

the thing about Alfred is that more than anything you have to recognize that he's an enabler. and I love the man to pieces, but at absolute best he was extremely negligent in Bruce's upbringing, if not actively encouraging the world's worst coping mechanisms.

I hate to give Gotham credit for anything, especially when it comes to Alfred since I hate their Alfred, but the show was bang on in its insistence from day one that Alfred should not have been Bruce's primary guardian. it's painful to watch how often Alfred encourages Bruce to tough it out and suck it up, and it never really stops. in one of the latter seasons (four, I think) he hits Bruce hard enough to give him a black eye during an argument, and this is ultimately written as a situation in which Bruce needs to apologize to Alfred for being a bratty teenager, rather than Alfred owing Bruce an apology for hitting him when he's a grief-stricken teenage boy cracking under stress.

and like, listen, I understand there are Watsonian and Doylist layers to this. Alfred fundamentally can't have been a good enough guardian to stop Bruce from channeling his trauma into fursuit vigilantism, because then there's no story. I get it.

but jesus christ.

I don't think characterizations of Alfred as a stoic caregiver are wrong, but I do think people don't want to think about how he got there. when I see the aged Alfred patching up Bruce's wounds and nagging him to eat, or doing his best to offer advice to the kids who have gotten mixed up in Bruce's crusade, I see a man who realized a long time ago that he dropped the fucking ball and has dedicated his life to doing as much damage control as possible. okay, so, completely failed step one (raise a well-adjusted child). can we at least make sure that this basket case adult man doesn't go completely over the edge? can we make sure he doesn't become a killer? can we encourage him to take off the mask and be Bruce Wayne sometimes? can we keep the children safe?

I do think Alfred loves all of them, for whatever its worth. his care for Bruce is real, that is his son, the Batgirls and Robins are his extended family. he'll cook their uneaten meals and clean the entire, massive house himself and stitch them up every night forever. he would die for them. hell, he'd kill for them. he loves them. but none of that means he raised Bruce right.

that's kind of the thing I like most about the Bats: they all care so, so much. but the way they love is terrible.

[lime-bucket]

Different person, but the anon Lilith it's right: Lilith was a monster.

And in the different versions of all this, there is one where they are not... dense, that they could also have followed.

When Cain and Abel happened, Adam and Eve were separated for 120 years. During those 120 years, consensually, Adam and Lilith were together.

The problem, in general, of Vivzie is that she does not specify what part of Christianity she wants to criticize (for obvious reasons, for lack of balls even, she will not tell Judaism nor Islam a single criticism, that is why we cannot even say that she criticizes the Abrhamic religions) and not knowing what she is criticizing, what is left is nothing.

For example, if she really wants to criticize Christianity, Lilith would not exist. Because she is not in the canon, she is Mesopotamian.

She only becomes "Adam's wife" when a satirical book is written in medieval times. And, in Zoharism, it is when Naamah, Adam's third wife, appears.

And in the Kabbalah, the fourth and fifth wives of Adam appear: Agrat bat Mahlat and Eisheth Zenunim.

Something that people always repeat, is not to look further, and this is a problem already in general with some texts or generational.

For example, one of my college papers was about how the new versions of Medusa were only based on a specific event of something that is not even canonical.

The original Medusa, she appears in Hesiod's Theogony, and there we are only told whose daughter and sister she was, that she slept with Poseidon and that Perseus cut off her head. It never even goes into who Perseus is.

Then comes Pseudo-Apolodorus, he writes that Medusa was the only human, he puts lore to Perseus, but, the change he makes is that after Poseidon lost against Athena for Athens, he goes and seduces Medusa, and she accepts. That is why Athena punishes her.

However, the most popular version is Ovid's version, the rape. It's funny that it's the most popular one, since Ovid wrote The Metamorphoses while in exile and wanting to throw shit at the Roman gods. The guy succeeded.

The new versions even punish not Poseidon, but Perseus, since they ignored the fact that Perseus is also coerced to cut off his head. Technically they are two victims facing each other. The new versions want to put Athena as someone who "protects" Medusa and that Perseus is the bad guy.

And so the thing is deformed: another example is the Odyssey.

Odysseus' journey is only divided into 2 books: The Odyssey and the Telemachia. People were making their fanfic around those two books.

From there there is supposed to be a third book, of what children with Circe and Calypso and so on.

Also, another problem is the translations and interpretations of a single text.

Usually when studying texts, the question is not "Where does it say that?" but also "Which version are you getting?" or "Who is saying it?" because it changes the meaning.

And, in cases like the Bible, there is no original text, since we have the translation, of the translation, of the translation, of the translation, of the translation, of the translation, of the copy, of the copy and these in turn have the same process of translation and copying.

It is not for nothing that the first known bible was in Greek.

The world of texts is not simply to stay and read, to know about the author, or to interpret what he wants to say.

As Gadamer said in one of his books on hermeneutics: It is a game.

It is a game between the author, the context of the time, the text, and the context of the reader.

And while sometimes you don't need to go on this whole journey to create something new, you can dissect the parts you want to criticize.

I said it once before: The best critiques of the Christian religion, is not towards its faith or values but how people interpret them or use them to their convenience and selfishness.

Vivzie makes good concepts, not good stories. And it's not the same thing. Because good stories require trial and error, constructive and destructive criticism, what works and what doesn't, and knowing how to discern which is which.

So yes, the real problem with HH and HB (and Zoophobia) is that their creator is the male version of:

- Thomas Astruc

- Butch Hartman

But, above all, and unpicking ancient Internet history, Andrew Dobson better known as Tom Preston.

Sorry if I got sidetracked or if it was too long, I like to talk about these topics and sometimes I go off the deep end.

Thanks for reading.

THIS THIS THIS.

truly is frustrating all the characters u mentioned have complicated & long version & yet modern writers cant seem to weave them a new interpretaion that doesnt go beyond surface level

I knew it fron the start HH wont be worthy as a "criticism of religion" cuz it makes no clear attempt to distinguish what religion it want to portray.obvs its not set in a hebrew or islamic universe so surely its christian..?

Funny u mentioned how viv has good concept,esp in case of hazbin hotel cuz the show keeps screaming at u "REDEMPTION??POSSIBLE FR SINNERS??" "PPL CAN GO TO HEAVEN??WHEN THEY IN HELL?" As if that idea was never seen before meanwhile my muslim self was just like yeah ig.. :/

[onceuponaneverafter]

Let's Talk About Jacks's Apples

...and especially their COLORS. I wanted to figure out what they could mean, so I made a spreadsheet!

First, DISCLAIMERS:

MAJOR spoilers for OUABH and TBONA + the Caraval series!

This post was written BEFORE ACFTL and does not contain information or spoilers from it.

This post is based on my interpretations and observations, all of them may not be perfectly accurate. The conclusions I make are my theories, not necessarily canon information.

When I reference page numbers, they're from my OUABH UK paperback and TBONA UK hardcover - it's possible they're a bit off for you if you have different editions of the books.

This is a long post, so grab a snack and get comfortable!

I hope you enjoy reading! 🍎

Table Of Contents

Introduction

Why Apples?

A Detailed Look Into The Apples (= explaining everything I say I'll explain later)

The Colors

Where Do The Apples Come From

Conclusions/TL;DR

This is a long post, so here you can see what's coming and skip over to what interests you most :)

Introduction

Throughout the OUABH series, there are 14 scenes in total where Jacks is holding an apple in his hand (sometimes eating them, sometimes not) while Evangeline is there to witness it. All of those apples are unnaturally colored. To look for connections between them, I made a spreadsheet:

For sake of clarity, I will be discussing 13 total apples instead of 14 - I believe the "undescribed" apple (its color is not explicitly stated in the scene) is the same as White Apple #5, but it appears in two separate scenes, so both are included here. I will get into this later.

The spreadsheet contains various details about the apples, such as what Jacks does while holding them, when he picks them up (or if he's already holding them when they're described), what happens to them (dropped somewhere etc.), how he feels during the scene, etc. I will discuss these later in this post.

Then I realized he also has some apples in Legendary and Finale, so I made another list of the ones he has while Tella is present:

Here's a summary of all the apples:

That would make 20 apples in total, half of them being white.

Now let's go over some relevant context! Then I will get to analyzing what these colors mean and what kind of connections I found between the apples, I promise.

Why Apples?

Before we do a deep dive into the details, let's go over the basics on why Jacks keeps eating the apples. The most popular theory (if it can even be called a theory, it's basically canon) is based on what LaLa tells Evangeline in OUABH:

"When we [Fates] feel, it's intense and consuming. It devours us and drives us. And the strongest of our feelings is always the urge to be that which we were made to be." –OUABH page 270

She proceeds to explain that when she sews wedding dresses, it helps her with that urge, and to say that for Jacks it's similar – he has the desire to find his true love, and supposedly that's the one person his kiss doesn't kill. So, according to LaLa's logic, the apples help him with that. It makes a lot of sense, and everything he physically does with the apples makes more sense in light of it.

When Jacks is first introduced to the Caraval series, he is described eating an apple. While I believe the theory above is true, it was also interesting to notice that he seems to already be holding the apple when he meets Tella practically by chance. In fact, there are only four times he ever picks up an apple during a scene, and they are all during the OUABH series. I will get more into it later.

In OUABH, Jacks is described to have countless apples and apple cores in his rooms and offices, so we don't know how many he eats and why when Evangeline isn't around him. However, I found that he almost never touches Evangeline while holding an apple. (With sort of the exception of the silver apple, where he touches his dagger to her lips, and the blue apple, which he was holding before stopping Evangeline from taking the luck stone back from Chaos.)

Now, this could just be for practical reasons, but he touches Evangeline in about 21 of the 25 (I focused on the apples so this may not be the exact count) scenes where he doesn't have an apple and only in 6 of the 14 scenes where he has an apple, and in 2 of them the touch is barely there or brief and initiated by Evangeline.

An interesting comparison is how he does touch Tella while holding an apple (like Blue Apple #1 and White Caraval Apple #2), so it definitely isn't purely about logistics. Maybe it's related to him thinking she's his true love, that's the greatest difference I can think of. It is also noteworthy that he doesn't eat any apples while in the Hollow, which Evangeline also notices (TBONA 284).

With the theory above in mind, the way Jacks touches his apples is pretty straightforward:

He tosses them when he's in a good mood or needs to distract himself

Him biting them is practically his version of self-control

He drops them when things aren't so fun anymore or there's a clear mood shift (I will discuss this a bit more later).

He stabs two apples in total: the Silver Apple and White OUABH Apple #4. the first time he tells Evangeline how Apollo would be eternally heartbroken if she called off the engagement, the second time he tells Evangeline that the Archer ends up killing the Fox. And what unites these? Great heartbreak.

A Detailed Look Into The Apples

Or in other words, let's get into everything I said I would discuss later. After this, we'll look more into the apple colors.

The Undescribed Apple

I believe that White Apple #5, the apple Jacks holds in his hand before he and Evangeline leave to LaLa's engagement party, is the same as the apple that he picks up in the next scene, in the carriage as they travel - its color is not described, but the narration leads to the assumption that this apple is already familiar to the reader:

"Jacks leaned back in his seat and picked up his apple" –TBONA page 184

13 is also a more meaningful number than 14 (and the total count of all apples would be 20 instead of 21), so even though the total number might be purely coincidental, it also could be a fun intentional detail.

Caraval vs. OUABH

There are some very interesting parallels between apples in Legendary/Finale and apples in OUABH/TBONA.

First, we have the blue apple (in Legendary) that Jacks ends up dropping into a fireplace (see chart below). The only other apple that he specifically drops into fire is the very last white apple in TBONA. Before he drops the blue apple, Tella says that nothing could make her fall in love with him. Before he drops the white apple, Evangeline suggests that maybe Jacks could find another true love.

Second, every apple is either last seen still in his hand or dropped on the floor/ground (or fire), except for two: the sparkling white one in Finale (in Tella's dream again) and the pink one in OUABH, which he tosses to Tella and Evangeline. He directly encourages Tella to taste the white apple, and he tells Evangeline that she might need a snack. In terms of color, the sparkling white apple is especially interesting – I will look into the sparkling later along with the colors.

"Jacks picked up his apple"

The main difference between the Caraval and OUABH apples - and the one thing that keeps messing up my theories - is that during the Caraval series, Jacks never picks up an apple during a scene, he is always already holding one when the scene begins (see chart above). However, during OUABH and TBONA, he picks up four apples in total. And they are all white.

White Apple #1: Meeting Evangeline for the first time

White Apple #3: Evangeline says she'd stab Jacks if she got the chance to

White Apple #5: Evangeline forbids Jacks from killing people at LaLa's party

White Apple #7: Jacks lets go of Evangeline and shuts off from her, he's about to tell her the truth about planning to go back in time

All of them are different in terms of why exactly he picks up the apple, but there is more or less a shift in tone/topic of their conversation during all of these scenes.

The Colors

White Apples

I think that white apples are the "default" color, and/or they represent focusing on what's important.

They make up half of the apples Jacks has, and all of the apples he spontaneously picks up are white. So, if something like his emotions or circumstances affect the apple colors (which I think is at least somewhat the case), it makes sense for white to be the basic color – and what would be a better "default" apple than the one who reminds him not to get distracted.

Even though the apple he tosses to Tella is sparkling white, I don't think the color represents her because he was holding a white apple before he met Tella. He couldn't have been thinking of her, but he most likely had plans that he was thinking over as he was hoping to take the throne from Elantine.

Black Apples

I originally thought the black color could mean bad intentions or regret, but I'm now quite sure it represents doing whatever it takes to get what he wants. The context surrounding the black apples highlights this:

Black Apple #1: Jacks offers his help in exchange for controlling Tella's emotions. He wants to find true love more than anything, and this is his last attempt to make Tella fall for him.

Black Apple #2: He's controlling Apollo in order to make him propose to Evangeline. He needs it, again, in order to reach his goal – only this time he's planning to go back in time. Still to find true love, though.

Black Apple #3: This one stands out a bit from the other two. Jacks brings Evangeline to Chaos' castle so she can be healed after Apollo shot her. Here the black apple might symbolize doing anything to keep Evangeline alive (he also needs her alive, so that checks out, but at this point I don't think it's just that), and possibly his reluctance to either ask Chaos for help or put Evangeline through being infected with vampire venom.

Blue Apples

Blue apples seem to represent happiness and success, because we tend to see them after something went just like Jacks wanted. This could also be connected to his eye color.

Blue Apple #1: It's the first apple we see after Tella didn't die of his kiss, and he's obviously more than happy about that.

Blue Apple #2. He got into Tella's dream, for the second time, and he had successfully tricked her into the "marriage thing" before.

Blue Apple #3. He is holding this one right after Evangeline agreed to open the Valory Arch, while the apple he held in the previous scene (only five pages earlier) was white.

The Golden Apple

The apples that there are just one of are the trickiest because there's less context to go by, but I think the golden apple represents Tella. It's the first one we see in his hand after the events of Finale, and Tella's hair color is close enough to it. She is also a princess now, which the color gold could also represent.

It's worth mentioning that it could also be tied to failure, heartbreak, or Jacks's own hair color (as it is often described as golden). He also lives in the North now, known as Lord Jacks, and he's "friends" (?) with Apollo, a prince, so it could be related to that as well.

The Silver Apple

I think the silver apple is like a "milder" version of the blue apple, in which case the apple representing happiness would definitely be intentionally the same color as his eyes: The Caraval Wiki describes his eye color as "silver-blue".

When Jacks has the silver apple, Evangeline has got married to Apollo just like he wanted, but everything isn't perfect yet. He's quite content, but it isn't quite as big satisfaction as when he has a blue apple. However, because Evangeline asked him to meet, the apple's color could also represent for example curiosity.

The Pink Apple

Because of Evangeline's hair color, the pink apple seems to intuitively represent her. Not only that, he's just spent the night holding her before he appears with the pink apple in hand, so it just makes a lot of sense to me. This is also the apple he tossed to her.

The Purple Apple

I've had the most trouble with the purple apple. It being the apple he holds after talking with Scarlett and the scene leading to Tella's discovery that his heart beats, and the only purple apple during any book and scene, I don't even know where to start.

While basic color symbolism is connected to the apple colors loosely at most, purple as a symbol for royalty, nobility, and power could make sense if he wanted to emphasize those qualities while talking to Scarlett. Purple is also associated with mystery, and with us and Tella not finding out immediately why he met with Scarlett, it could also be a storytelling element.

Bonus: Sparkling/shimmering Apples

There are some apples that deserve a special mention, and that's the ones that are described as sparkling or shimmering.

White Caraval Apple #3, "sparkling white": This is the apple that Jacks gives to Tella (in her dream), urging her to taste it.

Black Apple #3, "shimmering black": And this apple is in TBONA, when Jacks brings Evangeline to Chaos' castle to be healed.

The only similarity between them that I've found so far is that they both stand out from the other white and blue apples: the sparkling white apple is the only white apple that Jacks gives to someone else, and the shimmering black apple is the third one that stands out to me (see "Black Apples" above).

Where Do The Apples Come From

A very good and for now unanswered question is where Jacks gets the apples from. Does he pick them from a tree? What tree? What color are they, do they start off as natural apples or maybe white? What makes an apple something other than their default color? For these questions, I don't have solid theories yet, only speculation.

We're all obsessed with how intensely Fates feel when they do feel something (*cough* the end of TBONA *cough*), but I also think that it could have something to do with the apples, at least some of them. When Jacks feels something or spends a lot of time thinking of something, maybe it could somehow affect the apples' colors? Some of the apples seem to be connected to his emotions, such as the blue ones. No apples are seen changing colors and some apples seem to not have a direct connection to his emotions, though, so there is little evidence to support this.

Conclusions

To summarize everything I went over above,

There are 20 apples in total that Jacks is seen holding throughout every scene he is in, seven of them during the Caraval series and 13 during OUABH and TBONA.

What Jacks does with his apples (tossing, biting, picking up, dropping) is connected to his emotions.

The apples have different colors that I believe represent different things: white (10 of 20, focusing on what's important), black (3 of 20, doing whatever it takes), blue (3 of 20, happiness), gold (1 of 20, possibly Tella? multiple possibilities), silver (1 of 20, possibly happiness mixed with something else), pink (1 of 20, Evangeline?), and purple (1 of 20, power? nobility? mystery?).

The origin of the apples is for now unknown, as is the reason for each color (both the colors' meanings and how they take on the different colors).

With all that said, there is quite much room for interpretation, especially in terms of the apple colors. My theories aren't the only correct ones, and I do not wish to present them that way. As I stated in the beginning, I might have overlooked details or noted some down inaccurately. The purpose of this post was to share my findings and to have fun theorizing!

Let's hope that we get some actual answers for these in ACFTL and that the books treat us kindly &lt;3 Please do not give me any spoilers, not on the topic of apples or anything else, I'm actively trying to avoid them!

If you read this far, THANK YOU SO MUCH!! I poured my heart into this research and this analysis, and I'm so happy if at least one person besides myself enjoys looking at my little findings. <3 Here, have an apple as a reward: 🍎

[svsssfanonarchive]

Welcome!

This is your official-unofficial source for all things SVSSS fanon-debunking! As a veteran reader of MXTX's least popular novel and someone with a PhD in SVSSS literature, I have taken on the arduous task of separating fact from fiction... or well, specifically, canon from fanon.

《 Disclaimer: The purpose of this blog is textual analysis, not to tell people what fanon or canon material to use or not to use in their fanworks, or to make moral judgments on the way people interpret the text. Please see my faq and psa tags for more about my views on the matter. 》

There is a significant affliction within this fandom, where fanon ideas are assumed to be canonical facts-- to the point where sometimes fanon will even end up on the official SVSSS wiki 😱😱😱!!!

I've met quite a lot of people who are surprised to find out that something they think is canon is actually fanon, and even a few that are the other way around, so I've decided to start this blog to help people sort it out!

My credentials and qualifications are as follows:

PhD in SVSSS literature (awarded to me by a disgruntled SJ apologist).

A good minimum of 50-75% of available brain-space devoted to SVSSS at all times

Consummate knowledge of minute lore details

Near-memorization of a good portion of the novel, with the added ability to find any quote within 10 minutes of searching (in both EN and CN)

Author of a fic that is currently over 300k words long and counting, which was originally written out of spite for fanon portrayals of certain characters and themes

The ability to write 5k+ rants about any given topic in the space of an afternoon

--------------------

How this blog works:

You, dear reader, send in a suspected fanon topic to my askbox. Or perhaps it's something you suspect to be canon, but would like confirmation on.

I will then write a post on this topic (on no set schedule, I go as the wind takes me~), first applying a rating (more details below), then adding further information as needed. Topics with either support or rebuttal in canon will have quoted evidence presented, those without either of those things will simply have a brief explanation.

I will also add some analysis or potential interpretations and readings but I will do my best not to add my pure opinions to these posts-- this blog is about textual evidence! So, do not reblog my posts to argue with me based on your headcanons! If you want to argue against one of my posts, provide a quoted source from the novel!

Otherwise, I will most likely block you :>

Any hateful content or attempts to start fandom wank on my posts or in my inbox will get deleted and blocked. Anyone who provides textual evidence that changes my rating or analysis will be very much appreciated and receive the Golden Cucumber Award.

At the end of the day, this blog is entirely about canonical textual analysis and has no bearing whatsoever on what people want to headcanon or use in their fics. It's fandom. Do Whatever You Want Forever. Who am I to say you can't use a certain headcanon?

Just please treat headcanons as headcanons. No matter how deeply-entrenched into fanon they may be, they're still not canon and shouldn't be treated as such.

If you're of the mind that you'll still do whatever you want without regards for canon, then you're probably not the intended audience for this blog. If you're someone who wants to clarify whether a popular idea has a basis in canon or not, then read on to learn more about the rating system and see already-discussed topics!

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Rating System

WHAT DO I CONSIDER CANON? (please read before commenting)

Each exposed fanon or canon will receive a rating and analysis. The ratings are interpreted as follows:

CANON - This fact is directly or indirectly supported by the text! If you want to stay true to canon, this should be treated as fact.

FANON - SUPPORTED - Though the text doesn't directly state this is true, it is a very likely interpretation based on various factors including historical precedent and cultural norms, genre tropes, and the occam's razor principle.

FANON - NEUTRAL - The text neither confirms or denies this. It may be true or it may be false, and the matter is entirely up for interpretation. Many fanon will likely fall into this category, and whether you adopt it or not won't affect how true to canon your interpretations are.

FANON - UNSUPPORTED - While the text may not be directly against this headcanon, it is still an unlikely interpretation based on various factors including historical precedent and cultural norms, genre tropes, and the occam's razor principle.

FANON - CONFLICTING - The text goes directly against this interpretation, and there are quotes that prove it to be incorrect. If you wish to stay true to canon, it's best not to include this idea.

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Awards:

I will give out three awards on this blog for those who assist me in keeping fanon and canon separate!

The Bronze Cucumber Award will be given to anyone who reblogs my post and adds significant additional context in support of/explaining my analysis. This may be textual context or "support" context (cultural norms/historical precedence/genre tropes/etc.). Since this fandom likes to analyze, I will only be giving out this award to those who specifically add details and ideas that are not rooted in my original analysis (such as, a quote from a completely different part of the book, or a linguistic explanation that provides context), rather than those who simply expand on what I already wrote.

The Silver Cucumber Award will be given to those who reblog one of my analysis posts with a source telling the origin of a particular fanon idea. This is wonderful for archival purposes-- just as it's good to see where canon ideas come from, it can also be helpful to know where a fanon idea originated, in order to have proper context. Only the first responder to provide a fanon origin will receive the award (so that this blog doesn't get too clogged up).

The Golden Cucumber Award will be given to those who reblog one of my posts with a debunking of my analysis-- as long as they provide directly-quoted evidence that disproves my points. This evidence should be based on the text of the novel itself, and I should be able to look it up in my own copy. I will be more selective with giving out golden cucumbers to reblogs that debunk on the basis of "support" elements (cultural norms/historical precedence/genre tropes, etc.) because many of those topics can be somewhat subjective.

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Previously-Tackled Concepts

(See below the cut for a full list)

CANON

CQMS Twelve Peaks' have Color-Coded Uniforms

Shen Yuan has a Younger Sister

Mobei-jun has Blue Eyes

Shen Yuan is a Monster Nerd

Airplane was a Child of Divorced Parents

Ning Yingying is Younger than Luo Binghe

FANON - SUPPORTED

Shen Jiu Only Goes to Brothels to Sleep, Not to Have Sex

Mobei-jun and Shang Qinghua Eventually Get Married

FANON - NEUTRAL

Shen Qingqiu is Banned from Xian Shu Peak

Shen Qingqiu Wears a Cinnabar Mark on his Forehead

Shen Yuan Wore Glasses in his Previous Life

FANON - UNSUPPORTED

Shen Yuan was Chronically/Terminally Ill in his First Life

Shen Yuan was a Socially Awkward, Introverted Shut-In By Nature

Luo Binghe has Curly Hair

Aphrodisiac-Producing Plants are an Ever-Present Danger in the World of PIDW

FANON - CONFLICTING

Ming Fan was Head Disciple of Qing Jing Peak

Luo Binghe Received Both Scars from the Abyss Scene

Qiu Haitang has More than One Older Brother

Shen Qingqiu has Green Eyes

All Demons Naturally have Forehead Marks

Luo Binghe has a "Stereotypically Masculine" Appearance

Xuan Su is a Large, Broad, Imposing-Looking Sword

Shen Yuan's Original Body Closely Resembled Shen Qingqiu's

Luo Binghe and Shen Qingqiu were Meant to End Up Together in the Original Draft of PIDW

CANON EXAMINED

Shen Yuan's PIDW-Reading Timeline

Cang Qiong Mountain Sect Hierarchy (tag)

The Pre-Canon Timeline and Character Ages

[ask-codeearasure]

"Just make an OC!" But do you?

I used to be a fond user of "just make an OC" in the face of non-canon interpretations of characters from the Undertale Multiverse, particularly those that annoyed the piss out of me when I was younger.

But seeing as I'm older and less of a pretentious fool now, I've come to genuinely recognize the entire point of the fact that this part of the Undertale fandom is built off of the concept of the multiverse. Like it or not, there are going to be versions of characters that are so far separated from their canon counterparts that in theory they could be called an OC, or it would be easier to call them an OC and develop them from there, but no one should be pressured into doing that based off the creative preferences of a complete fucking stranger. I find that rude to encounter and I know I am not the only one who perceives it this way.

I think it would be fun to gather every canon, canon-adjacent, and fanon interpretation of a character and lock them in a room. Cause in theory they have the same or similar identity, but they are still different people, and we all know Ink would be running around like a kid at Christmas looking at them all with unfiltered fascination, just like we in the fandom should be doing as well.

Cause here's a special thing about the multiverse, or even different timelines within the same universe: They are not all meant to be the same. Their differences are the reason why so many stories are sorted as different timelines, universes, or completely separate multiverses as is just depending on the extremities of the differences that set them apart.

I am not saying there shouldn't be criticism on tropes in media, as there are things that should be chucked out the fucking window and never welcomed again (see Glitchtale, everything created by blogthegreatrouge, pervert versions of Reaper!Sans and Fell!Sans, infantilized Dream/Swap/Ink, the ableist fucking yandere trope as is (no, I'm not changing my opinion on that <3), erasing Error's hapenophobia, etc.). However, there are AUs that have interesting themes, at least in concept, that just were never explored or executed correctly because they were written by complete fucking idiots that shouldn't have had access to the internet (see Underlust).

My point is there are nuance to most of these things, and while sometimes a given work is going to be fucking terrible, that does not go for every project you absolutely abhor with no room for change. A black-and-white point of view to fuel one's contention for these things is not always going to fit a given situation. It's just counterproductive and looking through a lens like that every fucking time will result in dogshit opinions, misinformation being spread, and people getting hurt. It is no coincidence I am the one talking about this, as I used to be one of these people, and let me tell you I definitely was not a happy camper either. It's time to just drop it.

I am saying this as a massive fan of canon information, particularly canon Dreamtale and what we know from canon Underswap. I am picky and critical as all fuck with the content I consume to the point where, yes, sometimes I will get upset when I see people making Dream and Swap act as complete fucking assholes, when that is the complete opposite of what they are originally. I will get upset when misinformation is spread about their canon. And I will get upset when people claim they dislike these characters based off a false perception based on how the fandom misrepresents them, even if they don't truly understand that that's what it actually is.

Note that what I am feeling in these hypotheticals are emotions, not necessarily actions. I can be angry. I can be distraught. I can feel offended based on how my favorite comfort characters are being fucked over and slandered in a sense. What should matter out of this is how I allow myself to react. I could either commence a public screaming fit or block/mute the account that pissed me off so badly. Obviously the latter is the better option and for more reasons than my image given that if I proceeded with the former, that account could be put on the line for potential harassment. That is an outcome I dislike so much more than reading a (wrong) opinion, cause that's just... actually fucking harmful.

I hope I'm being concise with what I'm saying here.

We should be thinking a lot more instead of senselessly reacting to things we don't like. So make that fanon interpretation of whatever character. Make them into an OC or keep them as is, whatever makes you happy. Not everyone has to be happy with it, but this isn't about them. This about your personal enjoyment.

-- Sarco

[bugcatcherkit]

more plural mob talk when you get the time please!

I need to hear about shigeo and mob/other characters it's my favorite interpretation of them!

OKAY I will try my best!!!!! But its a little difficult because the way I think about them changes a lot. There's, like, some set characteristics and all, but I don't tend to think in "definitives" with them. The difference between this and canon is there's More Dissociation and a further degree of separation (though, again, Baseline Identity; they can't exist in isolation).

OKAY OKAY. ANYWAY. I think a lot about the resentment they developed for each other. Mob resented Shigeo ("his power") for how they lost security in their relationships and were isolated from others, as well as his general destructiveness that Mob had to deal with the aftermath of. I also think that Mob sometimes gets hung up on how to live his life to the fullest when he has to share it with a part of their brain that doesn't always agree with what he wants to do.

Shigeo started resenting Mob for taking over their entire life, and also all the demonization, dehumanization, being rendered as scapegoat, and being cut off from all their relationships. Confession Arc was him trying to separate himself from Mob so he wouldn't have to deal with that anymore. And despite learning to accept and be more open with each other, I think they still struggle with this stuff sometimes in post-canon !! When they have problems with each other, most of it comes back around to this. But they're better at working through it and communicating and all that.

In line with their new communication efforts. I think it's interesting that Shigeo seems to know more about Mob than Mob does sometimes. Mob is so good at intellectualizing his emotions and fears and experiences, but Shigeo is more aware of the underlying emotional reasons that Mob struggles to grasp. Mob does not know this much about Shigeo, because Shigeo is mostly Raw Emotion, and he mostly relies on what he's been told about him up until post-canon. I'd imagine finding a balance becomes difficult sometimes even though that's what they're working on. Also, I tie this stuff to their memories. Like, Mob doesn't want to be left in the dark about things he doesn't remember but Shigeo does, especially surrounding stressful experiences. But Shigeo is like "bro you just want to Know you don't want to actually Accept or Feel anything about it yet".

I know I have other stuff about how i view their dynamic but I can't think of it right now so I hope this suffices. Most of the time they're just going through life. Mostly co-con or blended. So.

OH AND OTHERS. One I really think about a lot is Mob/Shigeo and Dimple. IT'S SO GOOD. They severely understand each other. Also, whether he knew it or not, Dimple was one of the only guys in Shigeo's corner for a while because he was always encouraging them to stop holding themselves back and consider their emotions. And Dimple was there to help them out a LOT when others couldn't, which was a big hang-up for Shigeo during Confession Arc. They all understand what it's like to be seen as scary or insignificant or inhuman in some way or another, so they don't do that for each other. And its great for Shigeo to know that once Dimple realized he couldn't use their power (which he never actually succeeded in doing), he stuck around anyway when he Rematerialized. Overall, Dimple would Get It and not pass a lot of judgment I think. Dimple dynamics are so underrated guys…..

Another fun dynamic is them and Ritsu, who I think was the First to know by the way. Sometimes he helps figure things out between them when they're having an especially difficult time communicating. Also Shigeo's general strong attachment to nostalgia means he kinda struggles to see Ritsu as more grown up, and he babies that kid in a way that Mob does not. He also likes to give Ritsu so many cool rocks off the ground and he'll feel mildly offended if Ritsu doesn't keep them.

And also Shigeo and Tome would get along great. Their shenanigans would be worrying.

Sorry I didn’t explain many other dynamics I got sidetracked and also I didn’t want this to be too long. This took a while because I’ve been in my “school is starting soon” slump where I am so so so tired all the time and struggle to focus on anythingg 🙏

them..

[northstarscowboyhat]

“I think Starlo has the brand of autism that is the opposite brand of Frisk's autism so he struggles with reading how they communicate.” Genuine question, what does this mean?

I suppose it might be a little hard to explain, but I'll do my best! Keep in mind this is just my HC/interpretation of these characters, not canon.

Starlo is very expressive about his feelings and thoughts, and can be kind of loud about them. He also sometimes takes things a little too literally (when Ceroba corrected him about the horses thing, he took her words literally and assumed she was talking about a specific Monster named Horses). So I HC him as pretty open and wearing his heart on his sleeve (unless it's about his personal issues, but that's a separate discussion). Unless he's very close to you and knows your tells, he has a bit of a hard time reading people emotionally if they express themselves differently than he does. He'll try his best! But often times he'll ask you to just be blunt and say how you're feeling so he can be on the same page as you.

Meanwhile, Frisk is basically the opposite. They're very quiet, mostly non verbal most times, and doesn't openly communicate with words a lot. Their expressions tend to be very subdued. Very rarely do they say how they're feeling or what they want directly and up front. Most of the time they just kind of rely on the people they're talking with to be able to parse out how they feel based on general vibes. Ceroba is really good at this - Starlo is not, LOL. He'll often worry he's upsetting them, when in actuality Frisk is having fun! They simply just don't communicate it in the same way he does.

[genesisvirus]

What is your interpretation of Wenda?

GOSH wenda is a tricky one cuz i think pretty much everyone has talked about her but like. lemme try atleast cuz i also think most people miss the mark when it comes to wenda. but this IS just my interpretation so take it how you will, i just dislike glorifying her actions ya know. anywayyyyy

-obvious one, but she mimics a cat! i'm sure if she was a specific breed she'd be a turkish angora, but she's mostly a longhair either way.

-she's rather snobbish and prissy at times tbh, think like how cats are usually protrayed in cartoons. tbf she does mean well - sometimes - like i don't think she's an outright villain in the normal mode, just maybe hard to get along with at times.

-her and gray have a love-hate relationship going on, where sometimes they get along decently, and other times gray can't stand her. they're both rather introverted and they sometimes do NOT bond over this.

-wenda does try to bond with the others, but she's rather closed-off and a bit of an outcast at times. she's not outright cruel, she's just hard to get along with, and that separates her from the others and she's aware of that. so is blackhat.

-that being said, others do try to include her when they can. oren obviously treats her pretty well, despite how she heavily dislikes his gf for some reason, and vineria and durple are rather chill with her when she's not being a jerk.

-i feel like her and jevin would've gotten along, had they interacted with each other more. i also think that, if she had let go of some of her ego, she'd probably be closer to oren.

-she is able to purr just like canon, however she is unable to meow or make most other cat-like noises. this genuinely upsets her since she can't make a whole lot of unique music. in actuality part of it is the little bit of wolf traits that she has. she can't meow, but she can bark if she tried.

-blackhat chose to manipulate wenda as she was the most outcast of the group. it was a bit of a slow burn, but he gaslit her into believing that the world they lived in wasn't real, and that they were all pawns that blackhat could bring back whenever, and as such there was no consequences to whatever happened to them. he deprived her of sleep and peace and quiet, drilling his words into her head until she finally snapped and had enough, and wanted to prove him either right or wrong.

-she drugs and kidnaps oren, and ends up performing an autopsy on him to see if he was real. he died in the middle of it, but came back via blackhat, which seemingly proved that everything blackhat was saying was true. this, along with the sleep deprivation and such, drove wenda insane, taking her frustration out on oren before eventually deciding that she needed to do the same to the others, under the belief that blackhat would free her from her fake life if she did what he said.

-i'm gonna leave the confirmed kills kinda small since i'm not sure if the creator will reveal more later, but so far i will say that wenda did kill oren, raddy, and tunner, and she was the one to mutilate pinki's face. she may've also caused the plant inside vineria to overtake her, or atleast speed up the process, but who knows.

-she's pretty much living in denial 24/7 in order to get thru the horrors she's experiencing AND causing. if she took a minute to process what she had done, she'd have a complete mental breakdown. she tries her best to ignore it for her own sake, just hoping that what she's doing is for a good cause. the truth will absolutely break her even more.

-she still interacts with durple and simon as if they're still their normal selves, oblivious to their changes and how they don't behave at all like themselves. she also does the same to the "dead", under the belief that it doesn't matter since none of it is real. so ofc they'd act normally, just ignore the blood and gore ofc!

-she's alot more comfortable with her singing after going insane, which is ironic since most of her singing is disordered and chaotic.

-she has a few stray injuries here and there from others defending themselves, and from simon randomly snapping at her at times. notably she has a bullet wound from when tunner shot at her, which the only treatment she gave it was a cloth wrapped around it.

-at this point and time she actually does not care whether she kills gray or not, she just views him as another victim. the problem is wenda has never been good at finding gray.

-the one person she actually hasn't tried to attack yet is jevin. the reason is unknown, but part of it may be explained with how she tries to encourage jevin to just listen to blackhat and give into its reign.

[antianakin]

@theneutralmime

Man, you absolutely need to find your way into the pro Jedi corner of AO3.

Setting that aside, what do I think the clones' opinion on Anakin is in canon (and specifically Rex's opinion)?

It seems overall positive, from what we can tell. In season 2 during the Landing at Point Rain episode, Rex's only obvious response to being thrown off a wall is to tiredly tell Anakin to "just ask him to jump next time." During the Umbara arc in season 4, Fives specifically points out that Anakin would never act the way Krell does. In season 6, during the Fives chip arc, we see Fives feeling pretty comfortable teasing Anakin with a dick joke and Anakin's only response to it is basically to tell him to focus. In season 7, Rex feels comfortable pushing Anakin a little about the mission to find Echo, to ask for help and support from Anakin without worrying about any major backlash (granted, Anakin DOES nearly refuse to help Rex at all and Padme has to talk him into it, but Rex clearly believes it's worth asking Anakin for assistance at all which still tells us something about what Rex thinks of him). In Rebels, Rex does nothing but gush about Anakin very positively, at nearly any chance he gets. Rex obviously doesn't know about Anakin betraying them all at this point, and you could argue that due to how he likely thinks Anakin died that his memories have perhaps developed a rosy hue that kind-of distorts them into something more positive than they were initially. But that's speculation and my personal interpretation based on my feelings about Anakin, not necessarily what's actually represented within the show.

So overall, what we DO see of Anakin's relationship with the men under his command during TCW is generally positive and that he's a General who does try to minimize casualties among his troops. HOWEVER, he is not the ONLY Jedi who is trying to minimize casualties, but one of MANY. In the Umbara arc, Fives doesn't just point out that ANAKIN would never be like Krell, but that NONE OF THE JEDI would be like Krell. And during the Citadel arc, there's an entire side story where Tarkin criticizes the Jedi for explicitly refusing to push for victory at any cost, and while both Ahsoka and Obi-Wan vehemently disagree and defend the Jedi's strategy, it's ANAKIN who agrees with Tarkin that they're being too soft. So while Anakin appears to be going along with the Jedi's current strategy and is smart enough to recognize that sometimes there are smarter ways to victory that cost fewer lives, he is BY FAR not the only Jedi to care about minimizing clone casualties and is in fact the ONLY Jedi we ever see who seems to believe they're being TOO SOFT and should maybe be pushing harder for victory no matter the cost.

Rex's relationship with Ahsoka is... odd sometimes. I feel like the end of the show (and things like TOTJ) sort-of insinuate that their relationship is a lot closer than we actually see it be during TCW. There are practically no scenes where the two of them get to just... be together and bond. It generally seems to stay pretty professional through season 5. Obi-Wan at least has a few times where he and Rex have sort-of SHARED an experience on a mission together, like their time on Kadavo as slaves or even Umbara to some degree, Christophsis, Saleucamai, etc. The only arc coming to mind where Rex and Ahsoka are left together is the Blue Shadow Virus arc which focuses much more on Ahsoka bonding with PADME, not Rex or the clones. So while Rex's relationship with Obi-Wan seems to also be fairly basic and professional, there's a lot more times where the two of them end up on a mission together without Anakin or Ahsoka around, while Ahsoka and Rex often seem to get separated and when they aren't, the focus is on Ahsoka bonding with someone ELSE.

I think a lot of people WANT Rex and Ahsoka to have really cared about each other and obviously season 7 of TCW made it a lot more explicit, but the first 5 seasons of TCW don't really build it up that much, and it's something I think TCW failed at personally. It would've been nice to have more exploration of that relationship, but I just don't feel like we got it. If we ignore season 7 of TCW, I honestly feel like Rex DOES have more of a relationship with Anakin than he does with Ahsoka. I think it's always very professional, but there does seem to be a level of familiarity and comfort and respect there between them that just doesn't exist with Ahsoka.

All of this being said, I don't think any of that really justifies Rex GUSHING about Anakin in Rebels and constantly comparing him favorably to Kanan, that doesn't feel in character for Rex to me or particularly accurate to the way that relationship was actually portrayed.

Nor do I think that any of the more professional respect that Rex did have for Anakin would keep him from refusing to forgive him once he finds out the truth about Vader. People attribute "I'm no Jedi" to Ahsoka these days, but the first person to say that line was REX, right before he spears a slaver. And I think it would be reasonable to assume that, if Rex as told the truth about Anakin, that he'd be able to look back at their history and see all of the times Anakin took advantage of him in a very different light. When he thinks Anakin was a heroic Jedi, he can see those moments as just Anakin trusting Rex with all of his deepest secrets. But after he knows Anakin is the one who enslaved the clones and murdered the Jedi? I imagine that might change.

And dear LORD, I've got about a MILLION issues with the idea that Anakin de-chips the 501st clones post-Order 66 and that they still LIKE HIM afterwards. For one, Anakin would not do this. This is wildly out of character for him. Anakin is a slaver and people need to just accept that this is a completely canon aspect of his character. Anakin does not CARE about anybody while he's being Vader, his primary concern is HIMSELF and he wants everyone else to be miserable in the dark with him. He has zero issues with causing pain or exerting power over people and we see this OVER AND OVER AGAIN during the Original Trilogy. There is absolutely no way that Anakin, while still Vader, would EVER de-chip the clones.

But even that has nothing on the absurdity that is the idea that the clones still LIKE HIM once they're de-chipped, like... WHAT THE FUCK. They now know that Anakin MIND-CONTROLLED THEM INTO WEAPONS that he used to cause a GENOCIDE AGAINST THE JEDI. How in the FUCK would any of the clones be OKAY WITH THAT? Anakin MARCHED THEM INTO THE FUCKING TEMPLE AND POINTED THEM AT INNOCENT MEN, WOMEN, AND CHILDREN. If there is ANYTHING that we learned about the clones during TCW, it's that they would NEVER have been okay with that or done it of their own free will. So the only way you can justify the clones "getting along" with Anakin post-Order 66 is to claim the clones just hated the Jedi enough to be totally fine with having been used to commit their genocide.

And even if we assume that, we still have to assume the clones just don't care that much about Anakin having been a part of mind controlling them IN THE FIRST PLACE. That's a MAJOR betrayal for them to forgive EVEN IF they don't care about the Jedi they were forced to kill (INCLUDING CHILDREN). And these are the 501st clones, which means they would've personally known Anakin, these were the men Anakin was PERSONALLY responsible for protecting, which just makes the betrayal all the worse. It would've been bad enough if it was, say, the Coruscant Guard who probably barely know Anakin and who Anakin was not tasked with ever leading, but it's not. It's the 501st, who HAVE to rely on Anakin to lead them well. It's the 501st, many of whom already went through Umbara where they dealt with a Jedi General who treated them JUST LIKE THIS and we saw that NONE OF THEM LIKED IT (even Dogma, who believes in loyalty to the Jedi above all else, doesn't actually LIKE what they're forced to do and is just as horrified as anybody else when they realize they've been tricked into killing fellow clones).

So while I think it's entirely fair to say that Rex and the other 501st DID have a positive relationship with Anakin during the Clone Wars and that Anakin was doing his best to minimize casualties, I think it's UNFAIR to claim that Anakin was doing something the other Jedi WEREN'T also doing and that the clones would EVER continue to respect or like him post-Order 66.

[gxlds-doodles]

was thinking abt how much i miss the 2014-2015 era fnaf fandom and it's interpretations of the characters (oh vincent purple guy how i miss you.) so new au alert!! lil chibis of my vincent n phone guy <3 designs are very much inspired by the popular designs for them around that time (originally popularized/created by rebornica i believe - though these are completely separate from their au i am not associated with them in any way shape or form) 🎉✧ SUPER COOL EPIC LORE INFO UNDER THE CUT!!!!!!! ✧🎉

general lore ☆ basically a whole rewrite - not because i have issues with the story (i stopped paying full attention after sister location tbh) just for fun!! again very much based on me missing 2010s fnaf fandom that was PEAK to me ☆ i still tie in some pieces of the lore but for the most part. forget what u know abt fnaf this is a whole rewrite (ex. animatronics are sentient but not possessed by children - not possessed at all in fact!! except for perhaps a few exceptions but i'm working on it) ☆ these two have quite a lot of canon lore tie-ins but beyond these two it's different LOL ☆ set in or around 2014, timeline is a wip vincent dorian (formerly afton) ☆ italian on his dad's side, armenian on his mom's side ☆ william afton's only child, born while freddy's was open but doesn't remember it rlly - his father and henry emily were co-owners/business partners but split ways (aka william got fired bc henry found out what he did. why he didn't bring this to the cops i'm still working out) soon after he was born ☆ raised by william as a single father ☆ was forced to help his father kill since he was like 12 this guy's got TRAUMA. ☆ still deciding on why he's purple (boy why you ourple.) but ik that it's william's fault. idk if i wanna go the walking corpse route like with michael in canon yet ☆ cuts off his dad when he's 18 - moves out on his own, etc. ☆ still kills for reasons i am currently working on however he does NOTTTT kill children ☆ starts working at freddy's at 27 as a way to 'rebel' against his dad, even if he hasn't seen him in yeeears by this point ☆ night guard at first, eventual day shift guard and sometimes a technician when needed ☆ his hair is naturally still black - he dyes it purple bc he thinks it looks cool ☆ his red scrunchie matches the red of phone guy's head <3 scott emily ☆ THE DRAWING IS OF A VERY SPECIFIC POINT IN THE AU I HAVE YET TO FLESH OUT it's not the most reflective of his character overall ☆ puerto rican ☆ henry emily's only child - remembers a tiny bit about william, remembers being scared shitless of him ☆ gets caught in a fire set by william when he's 16. he barely makes it out alive ☆ henry makes him the phone head mask thing. it can *technically* be removed but it never is bc it keeps the scars that never quite fully healed from getting worse ☆ head somehow works like a real phone... don't ask i just thought the idea of him ringing when he feels strong emotions is rlly funny (henry makes sentient animatronics in this au he can do anything. everyone say ty plot device dad!!) ☆ has some sort of contacts made by his dad that allow him to see through the phone ☆ grew up with the restaurant, his dad managed the location he's currently at until passing the business and the manager position onto him when he was 25 and henry was ready to retire ☆ henry told scott the full truth about william shortly before retiring - including that he set the fire that he got caught in. it's made him pretty paranoid that he's coming for him or something's gonna happen to him, even if neither of them have heard from william since then and he's essentially off the grid ☆ always at the restaurant during opening hours but rarely ever seen bc he doesn't want to scare any of the kids with his phone head vincent & scott ☆ yes they're dating. everyone cheer!! early fandom purplephone was my SHITTTT i love them so much ugh they r everything 2 me ☆ ngl they remind me of poolverine (deadpool x wolverine). vincent is deadpool (VERY accurate.) and scott is wolverine (less accurate but their dynamic stands) ☆ scott finds vincent annoying at first but eventually warms up to him and now he loooooves him. he's still annoying but he loooooooooves him ☆ scott doesn't know vince is william's son at first since he changed his surname and looks completely different ☆ they're just rlly cute and deeply in love and got some angsty shit going on later but that'll be a surprise oooo