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batsplat · 9 days ago

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Hi bat!!! I was the motogp beginner anon from a while back... About a month later and working my way thru old races from 2000 I have accidentally developed a deep and profound fondness of Sete Gibernau... is it fair to say he is THE prototype for everything Vale did to his later rivals? Your posts on him and their relationship are everything to me - they have given me much to think about, and also facilitated the brain rot! Any thoughts on their 'reunion & make-up' from 2014 onwards?

hi!! I really hope the race recs tag was useful lol, despite my obvious failure to actually finish answering that ask. and omg a sete convert!! it really is going to be half a dozen people soon, exciting times. I'm going to put a pin in the 'reconciliation' half of the ask because the other half was already long enough... and I decided to focus here on valentino's actual tactics rather than his emotions. I still think the sete rivalry did lay the emotional groundwork for subsequent rivalries - but I don't currently have all that many more thoughts from what I said here, here, here, here, here, here, and here (lol)

so yeah, I think the sete rivalry functions as a mix of a prototype and a warning - and it's the first bit I'll be talking about in this post. valentino does have a few rivals pre-sete who he has at least a little bit of tension with - biaggi most infamously, but also jorge martinez and harada in his 125cc/250cc days. and while all these rivalries are formative in their own right, they also come with a certain... spontaneity. valentino makes a flippant comment about biaggi to some reporters, a feud is born as a result. it's kind of the training wheels feud - valentino's just saying shit really, he's provoking biaggi sometimes deliberately and sometimes less so, it's all very earnest and youthful and unrestrained. while he's already a natural communicator, he's a lot less skilful in actually using the media to his own ends, to pursue an agenda or press home an advantage. he's just reacting to every situation as it occurs, leaving us with a feud that consists of mostly isolated flashpoints. that isn't to say there wasn't a sense of escalation - catalunya 2001 and its fistfight beckons - but it's missing a narrative arc... and the reason for that is that valentino is not quite yet exerting his authorial hand on events. obviously valentino is not, in fact, a god and isn't exerting perfect control how each rivalry unfolds - but it is noticeable how many of them end up having such a scripted feel to them. sometimes, this stage-managing didn't work out for him and he came out second best when the dust had settled - but more often than not, he played it to perfection. hence the nine titles

and it's that narrative autonomy that really becomes a feature of valentino's game during the sete rivalry. at first, this magic touch isn't really maliciously wielded against sete... they're not enemies, they're still going on holidays together, valentino is just using sete as a sounding board to work through some things. the stakes in 2003 aren't as much directly competitive as they are psychological - despite 'only' having a 29 point advantage 9/16 rounds into the season, valentino was probably always going to be fine on that front. he's not worried about losing the title... but he is feeling unhappy at honda, he is frustrated with how much he's being criticised, he hates to lose to sete. and so, he uses the humiliation of his sachsenring loss that immediately preceded the summer break, twisting it so that it becomes an inflection point of that season (and also that rivalry). he does all the mind games hair dyeing and decides to sign for yamaha and all of it, and then he bounces back to claim the victory at brno by .042s. where he does his extremely on the nose prisoner's celebration to perfectly define what that season was all about - he's breaking free and taking control of his own story. zero subtlety whatsoever. and that's the climax of the season... like, he's crowned champion in sepang (where he crucially brings back the prisoner celebration but indicates with the novelty lock that he is now free), and his defining victory that year is probably at phillip island... but essentially, his arc that year is resolved at brno. after that, he's reaping the rewards

this is still valentino playing it on easy mode relatively speaking but it's kinda freak behaviour to just decide he 'won't be taking any more prisoners', as he puts it in his autobiography, and then basically stops losing. uses his fury to drop fifteen seconds on the field in australia. remember this is the first time he wins valencia too, because he needs to say goodbye to his bike the correct way or whatever. okay

sete is a little bit incidental to the narrative that year - they're mostly just setting the stage for what's to come. we do get little hints... suspicions on valentino's part (whether founded or not) that sete was taking this competition business rather seriously after all. valentino's remarkably out of character face of thunder after losing at the sachsenring. how they're both playing off this rivalry as so so different to the valentino/biaggi fiasco... they're different, you see, they're friends! you can be rivals and respect each other. it's all fine. sete mainly functions as a plot device to put pressure on valentino - a new consistent rival emerging, one who wasn't supposed to be the challenger, a little older and smarter and without much of a track record of success. not the guy who should be challenging valentino. valentino is generally very pro the concept of rivals, even when he's obviously attempting to destroy them. he's aware that they're part of the show, that you need a great rival for a great fight, that beating the very best is what it's all about. also, obviously, it's an important way of motivating himself. valentino is made better for that sachsenring defeat, for having to sit with his mistake at the very last corner, for knowing he should have won that race and had allowed it to slip through his fingers. for that first half of 2003, he's all over the place, error prone, emotionally a bit of a mess - he's been winning so much, it really isn't hitting the same way anymore. he hasn't been winning the right way. sete reminds him of just how much valentino hates to lose. and valentino learns the lesson gladly

now, 2004 doesn't have quite so neat a turning point, and instead features multiple moments where valentino acts to take control of the season. the drama starts early, at welkom, featuring a bit of a biaggi cameo appearance at a time where biaggi was no longer valentino's major rival (though he does still feature in that year's title fight). as valentino describes in his autobiography, he knows demanding victory of himself and his team wasn't a realistic expectation for that race - but sometimes, you just have to tell yourself a story, engage in a little self-delusion... and, hey, maybe you can turn that delusion into reality. after that, it looks for a little while like that success might have been illusory, like valentino might be on the back foot on his weaker bike after all, with sete's back-to-back victories at jerez and le mans. and then you get another inflection point - the trio of races, mugello, catalunya and assen, where valentino takes control of the season after duelling with sete for the victory back-to-back-to-back. each race comes with its own special significance, from sete's rain dance comment at mugello and alleged yellow flag infringement, to his defeat on home turf at catalunya, to his inability to successfully play the gracious loser at assen. the cracks are appearing in the friendship, yes, but valentino is also wrenching back momentum to his side in rather a dramatic fashion. from then on, it looks like he might be able to see out the season in a straightforward manner

except, of course, he can't. because then you get qatar. I do increasingly feel like I have a fairly good grasp of what Really happened, but that's for another time... the key point is that it's a humiliating experience for valentino, both the penalty itself and then the crash, and it's one where he completely loses his head in a fairly uncharacteristic manner. plus, he hurt his pinkie finger. valentino could have emerged from that weekend cowed and chastened, having to backpedal on some of the... more creative remarks he'd made about sete. clearly, sete was expecting that valentino would do so - or at the very least not continue to escalate the hostilities. and it is during that sepang 2004 weekend that valentino's stage managerial skills are truly allowed to shine. the high drama of the presser, valentino's refusal to concede any ground to sete as sete had to realise in real time he'd wandered into the wrong genre and his previous close friendship with valentino counted for nothing. valentino's subsequent domination of the weekend, the imperious form as sete buckled when the title was in sight. the cruelty of valentino's celebrations, making sure to properly twist in the knife while he had the chance. title fight back on track

after that, of course, comes the process by which valentino unravels sete entirely. he presses home the advantage at phillip island, taking quite a few risks to snatch the win from sete on the very last lap - he did not have to win the race to win the title, but he did so anyway because he needed to beat sete. call it an investment for the future. the opening round of the following season brings with it the rivalry's single most dramatic moment that... well, it doesn't quite end the rivalry, as discussed in this post sete does still have plenty of chances to win in 2005 - but essentially valentino ensures at jerez that he will have an enduring psychological advantage. a victory that really should never have been dramatic! valentino learned his lesson from the sachsenring, he wasn't trying any dramatic last lap overtakes. he overtook sete with three laps to go at jerez, which should really have been that. as detailed in this post, it's his last lap mistake that even necessitates that dramatic final corner overtake. now, as it happens, everything works out perfectly for valentino. losing a home race like that on the final corner is absolutely brutal, valentino's deftly played post-race theatre and the perception that sete didn't stand up to him only makes things worse. valentino was always going to win the 2005 season, but he ensured in the very first race that there would not even be a title fight. but again! crucially! valentino was not planning this! the last lap of the race was very much not what he was intending to happen - it was an error on his part that could have easily cost him the win in rather painful a fashion that started all of this. valentino is ready to risk a crash when he shoves it up the inside of sete... his desperation is key, but so is his lack of planning

so that's where we're at with the sete rivalry... high drama, all these turning points and on-track and off-track theatre that coalesced into a narrative - of which valentino was the master. it feels different from the biaggi rivalry... this isn't just two guys that hate each other, it's a story. and when you frame it in those terms, when you speak to how it feels like valentino is flexing his authorial hand in helping these events unfold... well, then you do start seeing the blueprint for subsequent rivalries. the 2008 and 2009 seasons have a key similarity: a single race that completely changed the momentum of the season, remembered in part for a single highly memorable overtake that valentino inflicted on his title rivals. so if you take that trio of races - jerez 2005, laguna 2008 and catalunya 2009 - you're in a situation where valentino's three most famous overtakes weren't just fun or memorable in their own right, but fundamentally changed the dynamic of their respective rivalries. which... I mean, that feels unlikely, right? sometimes, dramatic races just happen - there's no guarantee they're going to completely transform the rivalry as well as the season. once can happen to anyone, twice is pretty striking, but three times? bit odd innit

I've already talked about this a bit here:

and I've just posted about this in considerable more depth in the context of the 2008 season, which we'll circle back to later. it's one of the most interesting seasons in terms of how the momentum shifts happen over the course of the year, which is why I've detailed the build-up to laguna in considerable detail on this blog. see posts on mugello, catalunya, donington, assen, sachsenring, and laguna itself. here's a basic overview of how the 2008 season unfolds:

the key turning points are valentino getting to grips with the bridgestones, the post-race catalunya test where ducati finally gets their shit together, and then the race at laguna. I don't think you quite get the sense of how dramatic a turning point laguna was if you just look at the results - it's important to emphasise that despite still being behind in the points, casey was the title favourite headed into that race. the idea was that once casey and ducati got going, we could easily be in for a repeat of 2007. just total domination. casey wins those three pre-laguna races very comfortably, having basically led every single practise session throughout those weekends. by the time you get to laguna, it's his fifth straight pole position. even if valentino comes in second to casey every single time for the rest of this season, the points gap is at this stage still way too small for that to work out for him. if you told someone before the race at laguna that casey would win every remaining race that season - sure, it wouldn't have been likely, but it definitely would've been seen as plausible. quite frankly it would've been seen as plausible even right after the race at laguna itself, as is reflected in the discourse in the immediate aftermath of the race

in 2009, the title fight is looking extremely open headed into catalunya. valentino is actually third in the standings before that race, behind casey and jorge - though of course nobody knew at the time that casey would not be in title contention for much longer. there is again this slight sense of valentino having his back against the wall... horrendous race at le mans, then brings it home to third in a similarly messy race at mugello because he knows he can't afford to be throwing away any more points. which... losing at mugello? the race he'd won seven times in a row? the one race in a season where you could reliably pencil in valentino's name as the winner, even if he often achieved his victories in rather chaotic a manner? the italian press was not happy with him, and even less so when jorge beats him to pole at catalunya. there are several references in the race commentary to the italian press writing valentino off, calling him washed (to paraphrase), which is objectively a teensy bit of an overreaction but. y'know. getting consistently beaten by your younger teammate is just not a good look. valentino needed that win at catalunya, both him and jorge desperately wanted to beat each other in a direct duel - and all in front of jorge's own home crowd

which, again. it all just feels scripted, doesn't it. that's what we're coming back to here - this feeling that from the sete rivalry onwards, valentino somehow manages to control the narrative to such an extent that things just keep perfectly working out for him. he wins both laguna and catalunya, everyone remembers those as two of his greatest victories - not just because he needed the win but because of how he executed them. the corkscrew, catalunya's final corner... these defining images that have outlasted the context of the seasons in which they happened. and crucially - crucially! they actually do manage to completely change the profile of their respective seasons. 2009 is a bit messier, though broadly speaking valentino is in control of that year's title fight post-catalunya. let's bring back 2008's results:

that laguna to motegi run? absolute sicko behaviour. casey is the faster rider at the very least in laguna, brno and misano. motegi is valentino's title-sealing race. valentino isn't really the title favourite anymore headed into laguna, and he literally does not lose another race until he wins the title. competing against prime casey. how does that happen, right

so that's the case for sete being the prototype: it's the authorial intent that's striking in these subsequent title-winning seasons, something that originated with sete. you just have these races where it's like valentino draws a little red circle around the date on the calendar and goes, 'okay, this is my momentum switch race'. like sepang 2004, his back is against the wall and he manages to change the complexion of the title fight in a single weekend. like phillip island 2004, he won't be denied his fairy tale victory. like jerez 2005, a single dramatic overtake permanently changes the rivalry. which is all well and good, but there's an obvious follow-up question. how is valentino doing this? why do his rivals not simply say no to being woven up in his dramatic narratives? why is he being allowed to pick and choose his momentum switch races? how does he keep getting away with this...

and it is at this juncture that I will present my five-step plan to playing god in local motorcycling competition, a foolproof (mostly) way of ensuring that the fates intervene on your side. here goes:

choosing the occasion

going in with a plan

playing the 'joker'

milking the moment

bite harder when the opponent is already bleeding

there you go. that's the lessons he learned from fighting sete that later allowed him to script his rivalries. I've cracked the code

let's go through them one by one. the thing is, valentino really did pick his momentum switch races in both laguna 2008 and catalunya 2009. obviously, he couldn't have predicted things would've worked out quite so perfectly for him, but he wasn't just playing it like any other weekend. and both times, he made a great call. at laguna, it's notable that he tells his confidantes he does not intend to let casey win the eve of the race - aka after qualifying has already taken place. laguna might be a track casey was incredible at the previous year and valentino had a rather mediocre record at, but at least valentino knew he'd be lining up right alongside casey. he still needed to get a decent start, a metric in which casey is exponentially more accomplished than valentino, but at least it was theoretically possible for valentino to be in casey's vicinity (unlike at the sachsenring). the track layout of laguna also lends itself to the kind of race valentino was intending to execute in a way that, for instance, the next race at brno just wouldn't be as suited for. laguna is narrow, fast, scary - not a great track for overtaking. which makes defending against a substantially faster rider a way more feasible proposition than it would be on the considerably wider brno track. laguna was also just before the summer holidays, which is kind of a great time to inflict a humiliating defeat on your opponent - you're making them sit with the defeat for a few weeks, rather than letting them wipe the slate clean a few days later. (some might say it's preferable to immediately have more races so you can strike while the other party is still vulnerable but, well, that kind of summer break gap is fantastic for lasting psychological damage.) plus, the mismatch between casey's and valentino's laguna record was such - the momentum casey had built up was so considerable - that absolutely nobody was expecting valentino to challenge for the victory. more detail on the pre-race chat here

biblical levels of over

so yeah. this is obviously easier said than done, but there's really no better race to win when the pre-race rhetoric reads like that. catalunya 2009 has a similar combination of circumstances that make it the ideal momentum switch race... like laguna, it's when valentino really really needed a win. unlike laguna, it's a circuit where valentino has an excellent record at - and has been known to win quite a few duels in his time (as well as lose a rather memorable one to casey two years ago). it's also a circuit where jorge is strong, and unlike with laguna it's no real surprise that the two of them will be fighting for victory. a good circuit for racing and crucially also one that is good for valentino's racing - obviously, it's the last corner overtake that lives on in everyone's minds, but valentino has made much use in his time of his ability to brake particularly deep into the infamous turn one. and of course, it is jorge's home circuit. after beating valentino at his home track at the last race, there is nothing jorge would have liked more than to win in front of his own fans. he's even got a special livery... his celebrations if he'd won that race would have been something to behold. no better time to beat him... even better that there was a moment when jorge will have thought he already had the race won... like casey, element of surprise - just at a different point of the weekend

so, onto the next step. going in with a plan. again, obviously valentino could not have foreseen either of his infamous overtakes unfolding exactly as they did - but it is a case where you can trace back the overtake itself to his intentions going into the race. it's not just a complete coincidence he happened to pull off these specific overtakes in the most dramatic manner possible in what happened to be very important races... in both cases, the overtakes were a logical consequence of valentino's pre-race planning. at laguna, valentino knew that he could not allow casey to get away in front. the entire race was built around the single principle that he had to discard his preferred approach of shadowing his opponents, and instead had to go all in on disrupting casey from the front. by the time the corkscrew overtake happens, lap four, it's also pretty clear where each rider is strong and where they are weak. for all the fighting between the pair of them, casey doesn't actually cross the line of any single lap in first position. that's because valentino knows that casey cannot be allowed to do so - with the ducati horsepower and casey's own skill, casey is inevitably stronger out of the final bend and into the first corner. if casey is allowed to lead there, it's basically game over. all the overtakes in that race between the pair of them happen in the bits of the track that are at or before the corkscrew - and the corkscrew is the last bit of the track where valentino has an actual edge over casey. so, if you've committed yourself to beating casey whatever happens, if you know that you cannot allow him to lead out of the final bend and you're basically on your last chance to prevent it, if you've committed yourself completely to that strategy... well, you're going to stick it on the inside of your opponent, come what may. obviously it still takes a lot of skill and luck for valentino to survive that off-track excursion, but it is essentially a more dramatic repeat of the overtake he executed on lap one. it's a consequence of actual strategy, not just spur of the moment genius

with catalunya, if anything it's even more straightforward than that - valentino tells reporters afterwards that he'd been visualising that final corner overtake in the week leading up to that race. obviously, he would have preferred not to be behind jorge at this point of the race but... well, he knew he had an ace up his sleeve, if he could just pull it off. and he knew he could pull it off, because he'd executed that exact move on casey two years before - as casey jokes about in the presser - just not on the final lap. obviously this is also a case of dramatic irony very much haunting jorge - who, for reasons that remain mysterious to me, went around the week before that race telling reporters that whoever was leading into that part of the track would have the race won. jorge's mental rigidity and his refusal to defend the line properly headed into a corner he assumed valentino would have no hope of overtaking him in is what cost him that race victory. so again, like with laguna, obviously this could very easily have not come off for valentino, obviously it could've gone pretty disastrously wrong. but also... well, valentino had thought about the possibility of needing that move before the race, he was mentally prepared, he'd already tried it out a couple of years earlier - it didn't just come completely out of nowhere

the next step is pretty simple. 'joker' refers to this clip of valentino talking about having bonuses... these moments each season where you can risk a lot and go beyond your limit. don't try your luck too often, but you've got to have a few times where you go that extra step. this obviously doesn't really make sense in terms of like,, tempting fate, that's not how probability work - but it is useful in terms of the underlying psychology. this way of allowing valentino to let go of any inhibitions, to ignore any considerations for his own safety, and instead make a deal with fate... these are the races where he will do whatever it takes to win and he trusts that fate will have his back. and yeah, various races that have been mentioned in this post must surely fall in this category. phillip island 2004, where he makes daring last lap overtakes in the penultimate round of the championship - if he crashes, he's going to have to try and wrap up the title at his bogey track. catalunya 2009 - that last corner overtake could easily, easily, easily have gone wrong, and left valentino in the extremely awkward position of having taking out both himself and his teammate to leave their chief rival with a cushier championship lead. both valentino and especially jorge have alluded to the risk of that move... yes, it's not discussed in quite the same terms as jerez 2005 or laguna 2008 - there was nothing wrong with the move, no contact, it was completely clean. but but that didn't make it any less risky

and the most obvious example is, of course, laguna 2008. valentino has straight-up admitted he was willing to do whatever it takes to stop casey from winning that race, which could easily have involved taking out both of them at a downright terrifying track. it's part of the reason why casey took so poorly to valentino's conduct - less than the actual moves, it is the mindset behind them that was so objectionable to casey. valentino made a bargain with the universe that he would ride without any fear or caution on a track that generally tended to make him quite nervous (didn't even think the corkscrew was suitable to walk down, mind you) - and it's that bargain that allowed him to throw the bike down a terrifying blind corner into the direct path of his title rival. which is all well and good, but. uh. casey didn't get to sign up for this

then you've got milking the moment, which is such a key element of immortalising these races. at sepang 2004, valentino has his nasty pre-planned sweeping celebrations to make fun of sete. at jerez 2005, it's all spontaneous - he's reacting to the animosity of the crowd and hamming it up with absolutely zero restraint. pumping his fist, waving at the crowd, jabbing his finger around... the drama of parc fermé, the fourth wall break to take the piss out of sete's injury en route to the podium, the performative celebrations to really stick it to the spaniards on the podium. the way valentino makes use of his celebrations as another weapon in the psychological warfare arsenal is discussed a bit in this post, including with a pretty lengthy section on the laguna 2008 celebrations. the key bit is that he already knew the lap four corkscrew overtake would be everyone's defining memory of the race - so that was the thing he immediately paid tribute to

the post also discusses how he behaves around casey in the immediate aftermath - how he just will not leave the poor bloke alone... it's something valentino doesn't really do with rivals who have just lost a race, he's not that type of confrontational character. which partly reflects the specific shape of his relationship with casey, but most importantly comes from an awareness that casey is not doing himself any favours with any of his post-race reactions. like, yes, valentino is clearly having fun teasing casey - but he also knows that casey is going to get shit for this behaviour, and the more of that is caught on camera the better. valentino even gets such a lovely rise out of casey when he interrupts casey's tv interview - giving us casey refusing valentino's handshake with cameras and microphones conveniently at hand - that he deploys the exact same tactic with jorge at catalunya 2009. to jorge's credit, for all that he clearly was very pissed off with valentino's celebrations, he manages to play it cool in front of the cameras and puts in one of his better performances as the gracious loser. which (beyond reflecting how valentino feels towards jorge vs casey) probably also helps to explain why valentino wasn't bothering him for the rest of the podium ceremony - it is jorge who pulls valentino off the podium to give him a proper hug, not vice versa

still, catalunya 2009 is in the same camp - because jorge and his team were pretty vocal in the 2010 title-winning documentary how irritating they found the triumphalism of the celebrations valentino and his team put on. again, it's valentino going full ham - yes, valentino likes his celebrations, but he does generally like to play it a bit more cool and jokey and above it all... not shaking his fist about so ferociously you worry he'll throw himself off the bike. there's also of course the lovely little touch of valentino securing his 99th win at catalunya 2009, a sign that the fates may actually for real be on his side -

- which, like with the corkscrew at laguna, is of course something valentino had the presence of mind to pay attention to. more discussion of this too in the 2008-10 jorge/valentino rivalry post

so yeah, milking the moment. making sure everyone remembers the race - and everyone remembers the best bit of that race. making sure it hurts as much as possible for the opponent, whether that takes the form of consistently hounding them or just being incredibly triumphalist in front of their home crowd. if possible, have a stab at letting them stitch themselves up as publicly as possible

might not be a lesson valentino learnt directly from how sete's reaction at jerez 2005 in parc fermé was seen as inadequate - but it's the kind of thing that does make you understand the importance of The Moment. these immediate reactions matter... valentino could play the gracious winner easily enough, but his rivals might well have been doomed whatever they did. sometimes it's about ensuring your opponents only have bad options, right?

and lastly. all of this would have been completely pointless, just an utter waste of time, if valentino had then gone off to crash in the next three races. this feels like one that's flirting with stating the obvious - yeah, no shit, it's better for you to keep up momentum after your big momentum switch race than to lose it again. but it is key! if you're making such a big fuss about your big dramatic win, then you've got to lock in and actually make them suffer... hurt the opponent when they're already bleeding etc etc. again, the 2004 playbook is instructive here - valentino promises sete won't win another race, and then he locks in to win the next three himself. one pretty comfortably after tormenting sete all weekend, one after a dramatic last lap battle, and the last at his bogey track (the final time he won there in his career). in 2009, this isn't all that spectacular - valentino wins the next race reasonably comfortably, but also... y'know, it's assen, he's good at assen, jorge has a more complicated record there. does allow him to secure his 100th win at the first time of asking. the other key moments that season is pulling off the sachsenring win by 0.099s (a margin he didn't commemorate but I'm sure he noticed), the misano win after the indy flopfest where he did the donkey ears celebrations, and doing such a good job phillip island pre-race that he managed to spook jorge into a first lap error. catalunya is the clear turning point that season, but valentino is also helped out by how casey becomes increasingly competitively irrelevant after that point. who knows how that season would have gone if casey, who obviously had not been psychologically affected by catalunya, had still been healthy. 2008 is more clear cut in that regard... I've just put out a post that discusses in plenty of detail how the immediate post-laguna stretch goes horrendously wrong for casey, but of course it is pretty notable that casey has his first ducati race crash at laguna and then immediately follows it up with another two out of the lead at brno and misano. it is also a span of races that is EXTREMELY relevant to the thesis of this post, since the writing around those races repeatedly pays direct tribute to the idea of valentino the storyteller:

or valentino the witch, whichever you'd prefer

as I repeatedly stressed in that post, there are absolutely other reasons why casey just happened to have that particular string of poor results - ones that have nothing to do with valentino's ability to exert pressure or cook up nasty spells. obviously, a big caveat in this entire discussion is that however you slice or dice it, the way all of this unfolded for valentino still involves a heavy helping of good fortune. but, well, you make your own luck!! valentino built a reputation for breaking his opponents off the back of putting a curse on sete - which means that by the time you get to casey, you've got people speculating about whether valentino is using black magic on the guy. it's a reputation valentino built on merit, but it's still one that acquired a kind of mythical status... and valentino was able to use that in its own right. those infamous skills of putting pressure on his opponents - ones that for a while there had extremely noticeably (and worryingly) not been working on casey. pick your fighter, a voice in your ear whispering to you mid-race or an invisible hand prompting you to make errors

and that, ladies and gentlemen, is how you write your own sports narratives. make your rivals despair in five quick and easy steps

IN CONCLUSION. obviously there's also other ways in which sete served as the prototype for later valentino rivalries - again, plenty of this blog has been dedicated to detailing the emotional repercussions of that feud and how it may have affected valentino's approach going forwards. but!! I wanted to take a different approach in this post and really just focus in on the actual sporting implications... how interesting and intricate momentum is in terms of its sports psychology, how adept valentino is at deliberately picking and choosing his moments to rewrite the narratives of a given season + rivalry. momentum is one of the most important psychological aspects of competition and obviously valentino is hardly the first athlete to be particularly skilled at twisting it to his advantage, but you have to give him credit for doing so in such a dramatic and also fun manner. not everyone can use curses to ruin their rivals

and yes, of course valentino did get lucky for some of these races to go so perfectly for him - you cannot plan the corkscrew overtake or that final corner catalunya drama, and both of them are so risky he would rather have avoided him. but on the other hand, yes, I still think there's enough evidence here to suggest he also made his own luck. very accomplished in using the psychology of competition to his advantage! and a lot of it did start with sete - the first rival against whom valentino wasn't just reacting. what valentino did to sete was more than that... it was about taking control of the narrative. a lot of what valentino did to his subsequent rivals, especially in the context of winning the 2008 and 2009 title fights, can be traced back to tools and tricks he first started wielding against sete. sete was the emotionally fraught trial run - what valentino did in 2008-09 was the actions of a man who had already mastered his craft

#i actually have a hot take about the current season related to this but i cut it out since it's only borderline relevant #incredible that the first paragraph was a belated response to the other ask and now this post is also in itself a belated response #my inbox.... help.... she's very sick.....#ik this blog has wandered off in a pretty casey-centric direction recently but trust i am always thinking about sete...#just more in dm's than on this actual blog. but like. feel free to come chat about him!! seriously!!#//#brr brr #curse tag #heretic tag #wall tag #batsplat responds #aloexy #i come from THE momentum sport - like maybe other sports think this but they're all wrong. it's definitely mine #so obviously i have spent much time thinking about momentum... on a way more micro level than here #and there are people who think momentum isn't real. but the thing is <3 they're wrong <3 #valentino really is for the sports psychology nerds. he's for the girlies who picked up their copies of 'winning ugly' age twelve #to pick an example completely at random. of course

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northoftheroad · 8 months ago

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Hi! Sorry to bother you, but you seem an expert at Dick Grayson, and i really need some help.

I'm writing a meta about Bruce and Dick's relationship, and how inconsistent it is, and I have this vague memory of there being like, moments where Dick was referred to as a foster child instead of ward, and as adopted instead of ward (I believe the instance I'm thinking about is not the batman #145 one, the art didn't look that old), and also I have this memory of a vague-ish adult Dick saying he didn't want Bruce to be his father (not the crying in the trial one at batman #439), and i remember this wasn't that old, but also not the modern interview with CPS about Jason's death in gotham knights #45. I think this moments are like, post-crisis, but before flashpoint? It's very vague in my mind.

Sorry if this seems weird, i'm really trying to find them. Feel free to ignore tho

Hi, you already know a of the lot of the comics I think about for your ask :-) The only other I can think of is this.

Robin vol 4 # 0.

I've made a fair amount of compilations with panels about Dick and Bruce, but maybe you've seen them? Otherwise I've collected links to some of my posts here.

In this post I wrote some thoughts about the historical context for Dick being a ward / not adopted. In later years, the Nightwing writer Tom Taylor has pushed the father-son relationship hard. But I think I've seen different writers use different words for Dick and Jason in comics lately, "foster child" might have been used at some point.

Maybe someone else who sees this can help to fill in the gaps, because I don't have any suggestions for your other questions.

Good luck with you meta!

#dick grayson #nightwing #robin #batman #bruce wayne #complicated relationship

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flashfuture · 9 months ago

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Since I've been on it I wanna talk about Hal's parents. Cause I've seen some dislike for Geoff Johns take on them. But they didn't really, Jessica especially, exist before then. I feel like some people read the comic where Hal in hysterical grief over Coast City made a construct of his parents and then went off to kill all the Lanterns and Guardians and said yep that is exactly how his parents were.

But let's get into it. Martin and Jessica Jordan. For further context, the sibling order is Jack, Hal, Jim Jordan. Three boys. And it was sort of implied for years that they were Jewish and got confirmed not too long ago that Jessica is Jewish and Martin is Catholic. Hal was a grown man in the 80s. His childhood took place in the 50/60s. And before that he was a grown man in the 60s meaning his childhood was the 40s/50s. That absolutely influenced the type of life he had. Vs the further in time we drag this out the less natural it becomes to have super strict parents.

So to begin the first physical appearance of Martin Jordan comes in 1989 in Green Lantern: Emerald Dawn #1. This is a post crisis pre zero hour story so any events in this particular time window are wildly subject to change

Martin is a test flight pilot. He's Hal's hero. His plane goes down. Hal watches. This sequence of events stays consistent across every time line including Flashpoint which is you know fascinating.

"Hal got fired today-- and he got his mom to call up and beg for him."

"Talk about my father again Biff and I'll rip your lungs out."

In this version of events, we get a mention of Jessica. She's not named and doesn't appear. So you can tell she was brought up purely for a 'Hal is so irresponsible he needs his mommy's help' bit. Hal and Jack get along though and are violently defensive of their father. Hal also catches a drunk driving charge after this.

Speaking of drunk I know there's a comic out there where Martin is described as a drunk which I could not for the life of me dig up again but that's mentioned all of once so I just ignore it. What's with making test pilots drunks???

Anyways Green Lantern: Emerald Dawn is definitely not my favorite Hal Jordan story and I'm glad it's been mostly retconned out minus the very beginning parts with Martin.

(Green Lantern vol 3 #36)

"So you're back to flying planes, huh?"

"Dad's blood still runs through my veins, I guess."

This Christmas special in 1993 took place before Coast City exploded. Hal took Carol out to Jack's house to spend the holiday with the Jordan family. Hal directly attributes flying to his dad's influence.

Now Green Lantern vol 3 #48. Hal is standing in the ruins of Coast City not a soul left and he conjures an image of his parents. Reminder they are entirely Hal's imagination and again he is just about hysterical right now.

"I looked up to you. I worshipped the ground you walked on, or flew over. I wanted to grow up and be you... which probably has a lot to do with who I am now. Growing up, though, I never felt like you... I don't know thought that much of me."

As we saw Hal's dad died when he was Maybe ten. His little brother and older brother didn't have real accomplishments in elementary school. Jack the DA and Jim helping the campaign and having a family that's all modern. Stuff Martin would have never known about. Martin the pilot getting on Hal's case for having his head in the clouds? Really seems like Hal is the one he could have related to the most. Martin getting on Hal about not saving the city just proves Hal is projecting his worries about disappointing his dad onto his dad and then because he's so hysterical with grief forces himself to rewatch his dad dying.

Absolutely completely irrational state of mind he's in right now. At the end of this issue, he's going to fly off into space to kill all the Lanterns and the Guardians.

And then he summons Jessica. Calling her mother instead of mom is just really funny to me like informal with his strict dad formal with his chill mom. Lmao? Jessica only speaks on Martin. Reminding Hal of the good times they had. She's Hal's memory which which means Hal heard the story of dressing up as Santa he remembers his dad's aftershave. Summoning your mom just to talk about your dad is crazy work btw

Again Hal was so young when his dad died. Not a teenager not even close. What was Martin disappointed about? Maybe Hal who can't keep a job a girl or half his friends (Barry died and all super friends ditched him basically) is projecting backwards into time. And assumes his Dad would be disappointed in him.

"Personal gain? This is about personal loss!"

Personal loss and Hal's spent most of his time summoning his long dead father. He really never got over Martin dying and that's so apparent. Anyways this is where Hal decides to go into space and kill everybody. Seeing his dad taken from him one more time made him snap.

Hal is enamored with his father. Whether their relationship was tough or easy it wasn't necessarily the point. The point is Hal Jordan loves his father to Oa and back more than the rest of his family probably understood. He didn't just want to impress his father he wants to be him.

And Zero Hour royally fucked up Hal's family but like idk let's just say Infinite Crisis fixed it. That's two reality shattering events. Why not give Hal a little treat of being his dad's favorite. No one seems to miss when Jack, Jim, and Hal all went to the same college and the same fraternity and were besties

#dc comics #hal jordan #green lantern #martin jordan #long post

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zahri-melitor · 3 months ago

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Tom King's Batman (#1-85 2016)

And done.

I have a lot of thoughts about this as a contained run, because King clearly had some overarching goals and plotlines he wanted to tell through all of this, but equally I often had a difficult time trying to keep track of which plot he was working on and whether the story he was busy telling actually had direction.

Because one side of it was King having a lot of fun writing Bruce/Selina, and considering it in terms of their longterm relationship, all the way back to the Golden Age, with lots of references to previous events that may only be of dubious canonicity now, to pull out old events and point to them again, to show why they would reach this point that they might consider getting married.

And then dealing with the fact that editorial wouldn't let him have Bruce & Selina get married, because we were still firmly mired in Dan Didio Doesn't Believe Superheroes Should Have Permanent Happiness, but decidedly not actually breaking them up and having them just have a separation on page for a year or so (half of it in Batman spent in the middle of dream sequences revolving around the wedding) until people stopped breath down his neck, then... having Bruce and Selina running around like a couple again together.

And on the other hand, he is writing an over-complicated plot where Bane once again compares himself to Bruce and sets himself up in opposition; but this time he does it using, among others, Bruce's failures (and perceived failures) over handling Henry and Claire Clover (and their parallels to Bruce's origin story) as well as Flashpoint!Thomas Wayne (and bringing all of the Flashpoint and associated sequels storytelling into this) while not digging into the old Bane Half-Brothers story but existing in a universe where I had to wonder if Flashpoint!Thomas Wayne did know about the Bane Half-Brothers theory in his own universe.

And lining these two overarching plot threads up against each other: I think King had a bit of trouble navigating keeping both plots moving forward, particularly given the fact he really seems to enjoy telling nonlinear stories. He loves jumping around the narrative and hiding things and then showing them to you later too much.

Which can be interesting! Dropping people into the narrative and bypassing the setup and showing it later, using different styles of storytelling (flashbacks, dream sequences, asynchronous storytelling) can have fun effects in moderation, particularly in how it allows him to conceal things characters know and set up issue cliffhangers for effect. But I found it overused in the run, to the point when I had a number of occasions where I had difficulty picking up what had just happened, and why we were now in a 7 issue dream sequence.

It also slowed the story down significantly, in terms of moving the plot forward.

The other thing that really jumps out to me about the run is King's fondness for repurposing stories and mythology and setting up parallels. He likes referencing and adapting material and using it for the story he wants to tell, in what felt to me like quite a transformative-fandom style approach to storytelling. Examples of this included:-

Henry and Claire Clover's childhood shooting v Bruce's (and their similar yet different reactions to it)

Batman #38, aka "Tom King redoes Gotham Knights #1' and the child who killed his parents

Batman Annual #4 2016: where Everyday is just another version of Gotham Knights #32's 24/7 and what Batman does with his time

Batman #9, where he lines Bane's childhood up with its appearances in Batman: Vengeance of Bane #1

Batman #36 & #37: the Bruce/Selina and Clark/Lois double dates, which very much felt in conversation with their Hush appearances among others and I swear the elevator scene is a reference to an event during post-Crisis where Selina arrives on the scene in a Justice League story via the elevator shaft, but can I remember where?

The Animals in the Pit by Nikolaevich Afanasyev, which originally appears in Batman #57 and then continues appearing sporadically throughout

Batman #51-52 Cold Days, the jury trial two parter, which not only felt to me like King arguing with the perception that vigilantes contaminated evidence and his view that if Bruce sees Batman as above the law he cannot do the work, but also felt in conversation with Bruce Wayne: Murderer in a number of aspects

Rules of Engagement, Batman #33-35, which was not only the Selina v Talia face off and the kids dealing with the fact that Bruce was getting married, but also felt in conversation with a lot of the classic movie and novel depictions of the Bedouin that King was clearly drawing from in his perception of Ra's and the League (and say what you will, acknowledging the Lawrence of Arabia links to Al Ghul storytelling and the literary tradition surrounding it is better than shoving them in a drawer and ignoring it)

Overall, I think my perception of the run as a whole is 'bit off a bit more than it could chew' and 'needed a more linear plotline'. There are a lot of stories and arcs within it that I either enjoyed or appreciated the intent and references (even if I thought the story had been done better elsewhere). My major problem was that the connections between storylines were not solid enough despite having a through plot, to the point I found myself lost on a number of occasions where I felt I'd missed an issue confirming how we got from A to C.

A lot of the stand alones and two parters are solid in a way that you can pull them out and hand them to someone who doesn't want to get invested in 85 issues of storyline. It's not quite the level of 'writing for social media panel sharing' that you see pop up more frequently in recent years, but instead feels more like allowing casuals to drop in for a story at least once a year when they heard the hype.

I think I would recommend taking a look at the run under a qualification that it is absolutely worth dipping into for the bunch of the storylines that do not involve Bane or Flashpoint!Thomas Wayne plots. There are scattered issues in the Bane arcs that I do think were interesting, but generally that storyline I found less riveting and more 'waiting until we got back to the interstitial other stories'.

I actually think it would be one to pick and choose what stories you think sound interesting and drop in for them, because while you might end up a bit confused about the overarching arc, reading the whole thing doesn't necessarily fix that as a problem.

#z canon read throughs #comments on tom king #recent reads

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kiragecko · 1 year ago

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If you asked the batkids (generations Dick to Damian) who Bruce’s favorite child is, what would they answer?

Ugh, you asked about what they'd say, rather than what they believe. This is a much harder question!

(I'm including Babs and Duke anyways. I will figure Duke out through answering asks and you can't stop me!)

I'm not sure if ANY of these kids would have a set answer. It would vary so much based on who their audience was, and what period of their life the question was asked.

Dick - Why are you so cruel??? Unless you are a Titan, or maybe Babs, you aren't getting a truthful answer. He's going to answer whatever would be best for his siblings to overhear. And he's going to respect you less. Don't ask him this question. As for what he actually thinks - I ... I have no clue. Not him. He probably realizes it isn't Damian, and is angry about that. Other than that, I don't know! While Jason was dead (and before his death) he almost certainly thought Jason was. But now Cass and Tim are in the mix. A mystery.

Babs - She's been an outside observer for all these kids, so I'm guessing she'd think it was Jason. Bruce was gentle and openly affectionate in ways he wasn't with the others for both Dick and Jason, but with Jason, he did it without prompting. I think she'd be disgusted with the question and wouldn't answer, though.

Jason - Either Dick or, "He doesn't care about any of us, we're just cannon fodder." I suspect love may be boolean for him - either there or not, so 'favourite' might not be meaningful.

Tim - Okay, he could say anyone. Because he is NOT answering this question truthfully. No. That is not a form of vulnerability he could handle. You are getting managed. In reality, he thinks it's either Dick or Jason (depending on when this question is asked), but he is doing SO MUCH PROJECTING, you guys. He's basing it off what he saw before he joined the family, what he secretly feels about his siblings, and complex mental models of his dad that are only semi-connected to reality.

Steph - She'd say Cass, out of loyalty. And to make sure people don't forget Cass. Steph saw such a distorted version of Bruce - he was at his worst when interacting with her and Tim together, which is how he usually interacted with her. And she saw very little of Dick or Jason. My closest guess for her actual opinion is, "I HOPE it's not Tim. Surely he can do better than THAT, right?"

Cass - Cass MIGHT say herself? Especially if she was teasing a little. If she was trying to be serious, I think she would need to know context. Favourite to patrol with? Tim. Favourite to bring to galas? Cass or Dick. (He enjoys watching her, and appreciates how well Dick handles them.) Etc. I'm not sure she would understand the idea of a general favourite, since those aren't really a real thing? People are more complex than that.

Damian - early Damian of course says, "I am his ONLY child and am superior in every way." Later Damian would probably still say himself, in most situations. As for who he THINKS is the favourite? I'm not sure if he thinks of Dick as 'Bruce's Child'. Dick is an adult, and raised Damian. Sure, Dick calls himself Damian's brother, but he isn't competition. Jason isn't shown favouritism in any way Damian can recognize, Cass isn't around, and Steph and Babs don't claim to be family. So that leaves Tim, and later Duke. And I think he is CONSTANTLY keeping a running tally of who is currently doing better in the cut-throat 'Bruce's Favourite' and 'Dick's Favourite' competitions.

Duke - Duke missed most of the drama. All he has is the current relationships to go on. Ignoring everything but his own continuity, post-Flashpoint (because Damian did not go off on his own as a young teen. That's unacceptable), I suspect that he'd think he had it pretty good. Dick and Tim have so much responsibility, and always seem insecure about how well they're doing. Bruce fights with Jason and Damian a lot. And Cass is rarely there. Duke isn't sure which relationship is BRUCE'S favourite, but he knows that he definitely prefers his own relationship with Bruce over everyone else's.

#gecko's lists #batfamily #batman

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autisticcassandracain · 2 years ago

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Finished Blue Beetle: Graduation Day! Pros and cons list bc I like lists!

The Good:

I overall liked Jaime’s characterization! The graduation was a good kickstarter for character development and provided an easy way to switch up the setting and Jaime’s life, which I think the comic utilized well. I am really satisfied with where the comic went in regards to Jaime’s future; I think helping the Horizon suits Jaime really well as a character. I also like that the disconnect between him and the scarab came from both of their scrambled mental states rather than outside interference, I think that’s neat. Overall I think this comic did a good job with his character and developing him for future adventures.

I also liked Kori’s characterization! I think they did a good job making her serious but also exuberant. I’m always apprehensive about post-flashpoint Kori (or, tbh, non-NTT Kori) but I think they did a decent job, considering the limited screentime they had for her. I liked the interactions she and Vic had, and the inclusion of Tamaran’s connection to the Horizon was a great way to work her into the plot a bit more. I also enjoy what they did with the language absorption power; it was a really interesting way to utilize what is usually more of a plot convenience than a proper power! I don’t think her characterization was Super Deep, but considering the limited length of the series that’s fine.

The dynamic between Jaime, Brenda and Paco was great and I loved the scene where Paco hugged them. I wish we could’ve seen more of them. Though I don’t think it was quite as good as in Blue Beetle (2006), but like, that’s to be expected.

Kori’s hair really pretty. Love this take on it!

I think The Horizon is a great addition to Blue Beetle lore. It’s an interesting and refreshing take on the previously established lore that has a lot of future story potential. I also think their introduction was, overall, quite well handled. I’m very interested to see what other comics do with them (and really hope they don’t just get sort of handwaved and stuck to the side).

Likewise, I like the new Beetles. I don’t think their introduction was as strong as it probably should’ve been, but I think there’s story potential in Beetles connected to a peaceful split-off from the Reach. I like Nitida’s powers a lot, and Xiomara’s character seems interesting. I hope future comics actually expand on them, rather than just sort of leaving them hanging.

I thought Victoria’s character was fun! I know literally nothing about her (don’t even know if she’s a Graduation Day original, an established post-flashpoint feature, or an established pre-flashpoint feature), but I thought her moral grayness and contrasting moral system to Ted made for a fun character who had fun interactions with the rest of the highly moral superheroes around her.

Gratuitous use of Spanish was great! Love when I’m obviously not the target audience for a piece of media, and I’m saying that completely unironically. It felt like this series was being written for latines with a similar background as Jaime first and everyone else second and that’s great. I, however, am not latine and don’t speak Spanish at all so I cannot vouch for how that was handled. These are just my impressions.

The Meh/Bad:

The biggest problem I had with this series is that I do not understand why we are listening to Batman. Or Superman, for that matter, but Batman was the worst offender. I get that they’re established Powerful, Senior Heroes, but that doesn’t mean they can just order everyone around? Even in the Justice League, while the other members may listen to them, they’re not their soldiers they can just send out and order around at will. Like, why do they have the power to ground Jaime? Jaime’s not their sidekick, he’s not under their command, they have no power over him, yet everyone acts like they do. Like. Why do we care what Batman thinks? A different superhero team clashing in the finale makes sense, but what doesn’t make sense is the rest of the comic acting like Batman and Superman can just decide whether Jaime does or does not do hero work, or why his mistakes should be reported to them, or whatever. It’s weird as hell and I don’t like it.

By extension: weird as hell that it took this long for them to bring Jaime in on a presumably Reach-based crisis, and no good reason is ever given for keeping him out of it, aside from ‘keeping him safe’, which, again, is not Batman’s (or Superman’s) responsibility (beyond the same base responsibility they have towards everyone). Jaime is the world’s foremost expert on kicking Reach ass, and frankly, the Reach in general (or at least, he should be). It’s super weird to me that they all tried to sideline him because, what, he’s young? This is comics? Since when do we care about that? As a result, the ‘we follow Jaime’s lead’ moment at the end that was supposed to be a major character note kinda fell flat to me. It’s weird it took this long and it’s weird Jaime let them walk all over him before that.

To be fair, I have very little knowledge on post-flashpoint Jaime. I tried to read N52 Blue Beetle, and it was reeeaaaally bad, and I just haven’t bothered keeping up since. I’m pretty sure there’s some post-flashpoint stuff I’m missing that makes this make a little more sense; it definitely reads like Jaime at some point had a mentorship under Superman/Batman and that’s why he defers to them. But it’s really jarring when compared to the agency and respect he got in Blue Beetle (2006), and I am really trying not to hold this 6-issue miniseries in a completely different continuity to that standard, but Jaime’s independence was a large part of the reason I liked his character and this just feels like a much less interesting narrative choice. Is it OOC for Jaime to defer to more experienced heroes in an alternate timeline where those heroes never, y’know, left him in space for a year? Not really. (And even pre-flashpoint, he clearly had a lot of respect for Superman. Presumably because he wasn’t involved in leaving him in space for a year.) But I hate these vibes and I will complain about them.

Second biggest issue I have is that at several time this plot falls prey to ‘this only works because nobody acts like a normal human with common sense’ syndrome. Brenda and Paco trusting Fadeaway based on what seems like literally zero evidence. Jaime trusting Fadeaway based on what seems like literally zero evidence. Jaime not getting Victoria’s side of the story before resorting to breaking into Kord Industries and stealing (or, for that matter, talking to Ted if nothing else). Everyone listening to Batman and Superman like there’s a chain of command (why does Ted care what Batman has told Jaime to do?) Nobody bothering to ask why Xiomare wants Jaime dead so badly despite clearly not being evil and actually quite reasonable seemingly, or even bothering to interrogate her stated concerns. Etc Etc Etc. There was just a lot of very convenient losing of braincells when the plot needed it.

Aside from that the only major issue is that the inclusion of Fadeaway wasn’t particularly great. It wasn’t necessary to the story at hand and obviously only really there as a set-up for Blue Beetle: Scarab War (which I know literally nothing about but that title fills me with dread, please don’t be what that sounds like). I’m also not entirely clear on how much of their backstory was a lie to trick Jaime and how much wasn’t, but I think their character would’ve been more interesting if their motives were genuine rather than a way to trick Jaime. As a straight villain they’re kinda boring so far. IDK I’m not like, upset at their inclusion, I don’t think it tanked the story, but idk, it still feels like a sacrifice for the sake of setting up the next story more than anything else.

From hereon out its nitpicks and minor complaints mostly, that was the structural stuff that really bothered me.

It felt like there were a lot of implicit plotbeats that were just sorta... skipped over. Kori wanting to mentor Jaime is honestly kinda handwaved. Victoria and Ted knowing about the Horizon while we haven’t seen Kori or Jaime give them that information yet. I don’t quite understand why Khaji Da was scared. Was it Jaime’s graduation? The ‘Reach’ transmission? Maybe I’m just stupid but it’s kinda unclear to me. Also, Jaime helping Fadeaway steal the artifact is treated like an obvious mistake when I don’t even get why? Fadeaway said Victoria bought a stolen artifact that should be returned to its rightful owner. Victoria did, in fact, knowingly buy a stolen artifact. The ‘returned to its rightful owner’ bit is where the disagreement lies, unless that was a lie, which was never actually. Stated? Was that a lie? It felt like it was, but again, it’s never stated. Etc etc etc. Most of this stuff was ultimately minor but it was frequent enough it added up for me. Maybe all this was explained and I just read over it, though, who knows, I do that sometimes.

I don’t. Like the casual imprisonment of a citizen by a private corporation. This is a fancy way to say ‘kidnapping’. Like it’s great that Xiomare was held in humane conditions but it’s still deeply fucking uncomfortable. Ted and Victoria Kord should not have this power and everyone else should not be okay with letting them have it.

The characters of the Green and Yellow Beetles are underdeveloped. This makes sense considering this is a 6-issue-miniseries and there’s only so much time, but nonetheless, I literally can count the facts I know about these characters on one hand and that’s kinda sad. Feel like their character introduction could’ve been a lot stronger, even with the limited runtime.

Jaime and Kori’s relationship was rushed and felt way too close at the end considering they’d only had, what, one extended interaction prior to the climax? Again, limited runtime, that’s why this isn’t a major complaint, but still, it was a little strange to me. I liked what we did see, but there wasn’t enough to really make much of a call either way tbh.

The parallels that the comic attempted to draw between how Khaji Da functioned at first and how the Green and Yellow Beetles function fell kinda flat. This may be a result of me not knowing Blue Beetle’s backstory in the post-flashpoint continuity, though, but still, it felt rather weird to hear Xiomare shout about how the Horizon tried to ‘conquer’ them, which just felt like a gross overreaction to what actually happened (they got Scarabs and those scarabs told them that the Reach and their technology are dangerous, which they are, and should be eliminated, which, as a general rule, they should be). As far as I can tell no actual mind control or even forcible persuasion was going on; Xiomare and Nitida seemed in complete control of themselves, they were just working on the advice of scared and wrongly informed scarabs. But, again, I could be missing crucial post-flashpoint context regarding how scarab persuasion/mind control works and be wrong here.

An extremely petty complain but I really don’t like the way this artist draws mouths. I’m sorry I could just never get used to it. They take up almost the entire length of the face and it makes the characters look like muppets. This is highly subjective because it’s clearly a stylistic choice but it really did bother me quite a bit.

An even pettier complaint but I miss Jaime’s ragtag group of misfits :( Like I don’t need the exact Blue Beetle (2006) cast to show up, but I really liked that Jaime’s (superhero) mentors and friends consisted 100% of outcasts, losers, and/or B-listers. It feels weird to see him be so close to a bunch of A-listers and generally respected heroes and I don’t like the vibes as much I’m sorry. This is 100% a post-flashpoint thing rather than a ‘this comic specifically’ thing but it bothered me.

Verdict: A fun comic written by people who obviously care about Jaime a lot, with interesting new lore added that could easily be expanded upon in future stories. Has its flaws, but those can probably mostly be ascribed to the comic being set in the post-flashpoint continuity, and even if that’s not the issue, it’s not that big a deal. Definitely worth a read if you’re a fan of Jaime!

#my posts #infodumping #jaime reyes

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martyrbat · 6 months ago

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7 8 & 9!! 🫶

7. One DC death you'd like to make permanent—or alternatively, one you'd erase so it never happened?

if i was in a room with the joker and jason with a gun that had two bullets i would shoot jason twice <3 i think his character has good potentials however, being realistic with dc comics as a whole, they're never going to explore it in a way that has significance or is interesting. plus itll retcon the outlaws existence so its a win for the roy & kory girlies too <33

8. Is there anything about post-Flashpoint canon you prefer to pre-Flashpoint canon? Be honest.

i jump around in comics i read & their timelines A LOT so my canon and what i like is me just picking and choosing elements so trying to remember what came from where is difficult, especially because i considered flashpoint itself boring and new 52 is. new 52.... but I'm pretty sure its where willis todd was set up by oswald. i like the idea of him gooning (😌) for the penguin rather than his backstory being just a throw away line that he was working for two face because of the extra class commentary it can provide—especially if hes a poor man who just had to resort to petty crime and his desperation to provide for his family was being exploited. and him being thrown under the bus and arrested for something he wasnt responsible for in a cover-up for the crime lord who he was working for, resulting in being separated from his family and what eventually led to his family's homelessness—having his entire life ruined by a rich man who saw his life as nothing valuable and the unfair system that put him in that place to turn to crime and then punishes men like him rather than oswald... i think it has more depth and potential if any writer was capable of providing it, although i don't care for him now being wingman (?) and secretly still alive... but thats dc, one good idea forward, five steps back.

9. Superman in space or Superman in Metropolis? Does this change if I say Smallville instead?

oooh,,, ill have to say metropolis purely because it allows more nuances and better stories!! i think his adventures in space are grand and can be so fun but part of the reason why i love superman so much is that he IS this alien capable of major feats and he's powerful but, more importantly than that, hes just a lonely man whos scared to lose those he loves and wants to protect people. he has these abilities and he immediately wants to use them to help others and that hes based in that with all his actions. and because hes so people focused it also brings to a point of that sense of loneliness and guilt and identity crisis that he frequently had in 80s/90s comics and how he sacrifices a lot of his own happiness and self in the thought that he must to protect them or be the hero they deserve, allowing for stories to have more emotional weight and his character to be a silent tragedy that a lot of people overlook (literally what i was vaguely talking about last night on [this] post)

also i think a lot of people have gripes that hes boring because of his powers and the scale of his abilities but by having him in metropolis, it shows the heart of his stories and character (and it usually involves more than just out muscling the alien baddie since he has to be smart about his actions and what hes doing to reduce the possibility of civilians being hurt) and who he's supposed to be and what he represents by existing. by having him in such an earthly setting it constantly emphasizes that his character has always been to be a symbol of hope for the people, especially for the oppressed. what use is him having these big powers if he doesnt use it to protect those who needs it? again, his space adventures are fun and can be interesting!! but i think that if thats all superman was and what his stories focused on, itll get tiring quickly since itll be just making up new power-scaled characters to give any sense of conflict and loses such a big part of who he, as clark kent AND superman, is

(also i think him being so messy as clark is very entertaining and theres more possibilities of that soap opera drama in metropolis—i love when hes so painfully human and doesn't his shit together despite being one of the most powerful heros in existence. im still eagerly waiting for the inevitable clois divorce arc & for him to be a little cunty and have a ponytail again <33)

dc ask game <3

#hope these made sense my head hurts so bad but !!! thank you for asking <33 #lauren tag #dc ask game #<- for blacklisting

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threewaysdivided · 1 year ago

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I just wanted to say: I love your art and especially your banner rn by talos! also your fic as well thank you for creating everything that you do for people, it’s awesome!

Second: what’s something that you’ve been chewing on lately, story wise? What character conflict, or plot point can you tell me about (that doesn’t spoil too much of course)? I wanna hear your thoughts about the characters you write and your head-cannons on them too! Just spit some word vomit at me!

Thank you!

My current banner art is actually a crop of the first paired piece I ever did to go with my Deathly Weapons fic. (Specifically Chapter 11, which I still have a soft spot for since it’s one of earliest chapters that really let me lean into scratching the thing-I-haven’t-seen-too-often-in-fanfic itch.)

I recently got my hands on a discounted Wacom (my digital art process got tanked a few years ago when my poor art-compatible hybrid tablet-laptop was tragically taken from us by a cracked motherboard) so I’m looking forward to getting into a faster art workflow again and maybe putting some new pieces out more easily. I’d like to do more comic art pieces for the Chapter 18 mission, and there’s a silly little concept drawing for the planned Mission 5 that might be new-blog-banner material if it turns out nicely. We’ll have to see how that goes.

As for what I’ve been chewing on story-wise lately… I’ve sort of been all over the place. I’m still on burnout recovery so I’ve been letting myself move non-sequentially, working on the bits my brain feels like focussing on rather than trying to force creativity where the juice isn’t flowing. (One of the things about being my type of writing-nerd is that “self-indulgent” for me means a story with plenty of material to analyse, which is very fun as a reader but has created a lot of work for myself as the writer. As mentioned in another post, I have a full-blown TV-show-style story-bible for this one.)

Recently, my authorial ping-pong-ing has been going into a fair bit of spoiler territory. There are some chunks of the Act III endgame plan which are underdeveloped in the specifics of what the big-boss bad-guys’ plan is, whether I want to involve the Anti-Ecto Acts more, and the logistics of both the counter-strategy our heroes are planning to use and how to make its more action-heavy parts look cool in writing. When I’m not doing that I’ve been focussing a lot on the upcoming Wally-centric chapters, which are a set I’ve been wanting to keep schtum about since there’s a small potential spoiler mixed in and I don’t want to risk giving the game up or pre-setting people’s expectations before they have a chance to blind read (even if a few people have already made some close guesses in the comments). It puts me in a bit of an odd-spot right now because the chapters I’m drafting are an immediate spoiler, the later sections I’m working on are a major spoiler and there’s a good chance that a lot of the character stuff going on in the middle won’t make a whole lot of coherent sense without prior context because of how I like to layer foreshadowing/development.

That said, Wally-centric chapters mean Wally thoughts, and of those I have plenty to share:

First of all, I want to establish that I really do like Wally as a character. The DW chapter set comprising Flashpoints through to Equilibrium is going to explore and develop some of his flaws and insecurities, which means he isn’t going to be looking his best, but it’s not meant to be a Ron The Death Eater situation. He’s just a complex person, and taking him warts and all means sometimes you have to get up close and personal on the warts.

Something that I’m maybe a bit over-conscious of when reviewing my DW story notes is worrying about letting Wally slide into just being punching-bag joke-fodder. Wally is quippy, irreverent, a little tactless and prone to being a bit of an impulsive goober who sometimes gets possessed by teenage boner-brain, which makes him easy to fall back on as a default source of incidental levity (whether cracking the joke or being the punchline). Because I’m now writing an 8-character ensemble where most non-focal characters only get a few lines per conversation, it’s easy for characters to slide into being defined by their strongest surface level trait(s)… and something I worry about with Wally is that his availability as a source of jokes runs the risk of Flanderisation into a disposable Scrappy/ Flirty Comic Relief, which isn’t his character. Wally is actually really important – not just for his scientific book-smarts but for his perceptiveness, earnestness and ability to function as one of the emotional barometers for the squad – so I always have it in the back of my mind to make sure I include enough moments that actually demonstrate those qualities and the other characters’ appreciation of them/ their friendship, so that it counterbalances the more light-hearted goofery.

I think he’s walking the same tightrope as Sokka from Avatar: the Last Airbender – yes, he tends to take the L more often than the others for comedy purposes and sometimes he gets stuck with supremely dumb side-plots for the sake of tonal balance, but to claim that it’s the entirety of his characterisation really misses the point by a wide mile.

On that note, I actually really like the decision YJ!Animated decided to go with in its first and only season (ahem) in giving Wally a normal and functional family background. I know that’s not the typical background for his comics counterparts (and no shade on other fan-writers who want to write AUs exploring the abuse dynamic, those are really interesting stories) but I think it was a smart deviation for the purposes of a large ensemble, and offered a fair bit of potential for cast-balance. It lets him serve an important role as the normal one – not only as an easy window into what the current lives of ordinary middle-class civilians look like (which is good because ordinary people are who our heroes are donning the masks to protect) but also as a touch-stone for the others, most of whom either come from different cultures or from very atypical backgrounds. Even if we discount the Impure Atlantean with military training, the ostracised White Martian and the Half-Alien clone-weapon, the other members of this line-up are an orphaned circus acrobat adopted by a billionaire, a girl from a dangerously dysfunctional criminal household where she was forced to fight her sibling, and a fledgling sorceress raised by an overprotective single Dad. The others might intellectually understand what a “normal” childhood and family look like but they don’t necessarily know it as intuitively and intimately as Wally does. That normality gives Wally the potential to be a more stable foundation for the others, a source of emotional contrast and of a necessary wholesome mundanity. That is a good thing for the Team to have. I think it also speaks volumes to the heart of his character. For this Wally, the Flash and heroism weren’t an escape from a bad personal situation. His life was actually pretty comfy and privileged - he didn’t experience a brutal wakeup to the injustices of the world or some other personal call to action. This is a Wally who opted into the game because he loves the players and sincerely believes in their values and mission. And while that might mean he has a more romanticised idea of what heroism entails – and will probably face some rough shocks down the line as that rosy vision runs into those more brutal realities – it also means he brings a sincere hopefulness to the job that is less hardened than a lot of his roughed-up, pre-jaded peers. Underneath the teen sarcasm and surface-level lancer/smart-guy traits, this Wally has as much power to be a stealth-Heart as any of his Flash!counterparts.

Something else I find interesting when using Wally is how a lot of his strengths and flaws feed into each other – and I think this alternate backstory is part of it. For all of his good heart Wally can come off as insensitive, and I think some of that could be read as a product of living a more charmed life. I think he’s susceptible to a thing that a lot of real people do – universalising their own personal experience as the default – and that while he is canonically a geek and somewhat genre-savvy about hero cliches, he’s a geek about in-universe media so he probably doesn’t think to apply those tropes to “real people” like himself or his colleagues. While this Wally is a skeptic, he’s not a cynic, and I think he might forget how much of an outlier he is in a world where things like living parents and loving parents are often mutually exclusive. He’s smart enough to connect dots but there’s a little blind-spot where he simply might not think to until one of the others jabs an elbow into his ribs, because his default view on humanity is in some ways a little kinder than typical due to that small but still significant amount of privilege.

At the same time, Wally is also someone who has probably run into (or watched his mentor run into) a lamp-post at high-speed at least once in his career. He contains multitudes and among those multitudes is an endless capacity for some absolute Looney-Tunes nonsense, which the world is 100% better off for having.

I love him, your honour.

#striking the balance between silly and genuine with Wally is a challenge but you gotta have both #young justice: deathly weapons #YJ:DW Meta #young justice #young justice (animated)#Young Justice Season 1 #Wally West #Kid Flash #DC Comics #potatoeofwisdom #3WD Answers

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necrotic-nephilim · 3 months ago

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@sasheneskywalker i love when you enable me to ramble about things because oh my god do i have thoughts.

so recently, i made a post discussing the phenomena of DC x DP and DC x MLB crossovers and why they exist and part of that post was discussing how largely speaking, at least half, if not more of the Batfamily fandom doesn't read the comics. if they interact with canon DC material, it's adaptations that are their own sequestered universes and oftentimes not remotely comic accurate or seeking to be. the most obvious example is the Young Justice cartoon. i'm adding a cut to this post because it just got so long i'm so sorry.

a lot of times, when people are discussing the "why" of this oversaturation of fanon-only fandom, they blame Wayne Family Adventures. and i think, to a point, i agree WFA is responsible for a boom in this fandom. but as someone who's been in the fandom long before we had WFA, to me it's the other way around. WFA was DC's way of meeting the demand for this easy-to-get-into, easy-to-consume content about the Batfamily that predicates itself on the comics just enough to be vaguely the same characters, but has a more sitcom, slice-of-life sort of vibe so DC could profit off of this section of the fanbase that otherwise wasn't consuming its primary material. and well, it's definitely worked. not only that, but i have a weird theory that the decline in the MCU also led to the rise in the Batfamily fandom. when you consider the fan content that made the MCU popular within fandom, it's that 2012 "they all live in Avengers Tower and Thor is eating poptarts and Clint is in the vents and there are movie nights every Friday" sort of vibe. those were the fics that were a hallmark of the fandom. and as the MCU has strayed from well... quality content in general, but specifically well-thought-out crossover content where characters can have their own arcs but also exist in a wider story where they clearly care about each other, that fandom was sort of homeless. so where do you go, if you like a superhero found family where you can have villains for angst but also stick them all in one big family-like home for silly crack and have a plethora of options for gay ships? well. you go to the Batfamily. if you write a crack/fluff Batfamily genfic with silly vibes and low stakes instead of say, a fic about a very specific comic issue even if it's a popular comic, you're *going* to get more traction for the former. because the fanbase largely just isn't reading the comics.

and i feel... complicated about this. because on one hand, Don't Like Don't Read has been a tenet of my fandom experience. i'm very pro-fandom and that includes fandom content i don't like. and to an extent, i do think this sort of should apply to Batfamily fanon. i enjoy having my moments with other comic purists, giggling over exceptionally painful OOC headcanons or even facepalming in pain over some content but it is on me to not interact with that content. you don't make fandom a better place by being hostile to fans who engage with canon in ways you don't approve of. and frankly? we as comic readers are not going to get non-comic fans to read the comics by being asshats to them. no one is going to want to pick up any comic if we get a superiority complex about it. and also, i feel like we're all lying to ourselves a little bit insisting comics are so, so easy to get into. they're not. we can just all agree, they're really not. i've been single-handedly helping my sister get into comics, specifically Wonder Woman and no matter how simple i make it, i watch her get frustrated trying to understand what pre-Crisis and post-Crisis and New-52 and Flashpoint and all these things mean and what a retcon vs a reboot is and what a Crisis Event is and what the hell Diana's current backstory even *is*. sure, you can give someone a beginner list of comics to start with and slowly dip their toes in the water but sooner or later, *something* is going to confuse them. comics as a medium straight up aren't going to be everyone's cup of tea. and if someone *just* wants to read silly fluffy fanfiction about the Batfamily, i can't entirely begrudge them for not wanting to take the hours and hours out of their day to understand this medium. it's not an accessible medium to get into. "read this and this, but this run is out of print and this run wasn't collected in trades at all but also make sure you read that event in order and this is a good comic but the backstory in it is retconned and you *have* to read this it's so important but it's also really bad because the author kind of sucks" sounds. ridiculous for someone who like. just wants to read some stuff about Nightwing. sometimes, we all make reading comics sort of sound like a chore, not a hobby.

so my point is, i do extend some grace to Batfamily fanon for existing. i think my biggest gripe is, as i said in my other post, misuse of tags (if you're not creating content about comics, maybe you don't need the comics fandom tag on Ao3, just the all media types umbrella tag) and my far bigger gripe: when panels are taken out of context to support fanon only headcanons. if i could impart *anything* onto the Batfamily fandom as a comic fan it'd be this: if you haven't *read* the comic, don't spread the panel. if you don't even know what comic it's *from*, don't spread the panel. it's fine to use comic panels to discuss your headcanons, but so often i see someone spreading a comic panel from a comic they haven't read, and when asked where it's from, they can't source it. a silly example that comes to mind is a post going around, taking a panel where Dick, in his internal monologue goes "here comes the sun. do do do do." and the post is claiming it's from him getting buried alive. when that panel comes from Nightwing (1996) #140, and he gets buried alive in Nightwing (1996) #127, two completely different moments frankensteined together. if you're going to not read the comics, that's completely fine, but unless you're sure of the source and the context, panels shouldn't be spread around. i'm sick of this specifically happening to Red Robin (2009), with ppl claiming Tim has totally killed people because he blew up some of Ra's' bases, when those panels within context, make it clear he gave everyone time to escape. and in a later arc in that very comic, Tim grapples with the idea of murdering Captain Boomerang, and *specifically chooses not to*, because he doesn't agree with murder, even against the person who has hurt him the most. if you'd like to write fanfiction where Tim is pro-murder and has done some sketch things, i'm totally on board and would probably like to read it. but there's no need to pretend it's canon from a few panels you saw out of context.

beyond that, i think it's not *entirely* correct to say that fanon is harmless. whenever i see very WFA-positive posts, they often default to the argument that WFA is fun and silly, and comic fans are killjoys for not liking it. which. i think is complicated because the issue is, WFA and fanon don't exist in a vacuum. if you like WFA power to you, i don't think it's the worst thing ever, but i do think it's degrading to these characters because honestly? they feel incompetent in the webtoon. it's one thing if WFA was solely a slice-of-life sort of deal, just having silly episodes where Bruce is taking on a PTA mom or they're all fighting for the last cookie. but when WFA attempts to take on more serious plots with these characters, it *fundamentally* falls flat in understanding them. i get it, Bruce comforting Jason having a panic attack because a noise reminded him of the crowbar felt cute in a microcosm, but i'm so serious when i say that storyline destroyed how like. half of this fandom understands Jason Todd's relationship to his trauma. it doesn't understand how he reacts when he's triggered, what coping mechanisms he seeks out, and how he would handle Bruce comforting him. even if i can believe for a brief moment Jason *would* be triggered by something like that, him running and trying to hide and then getting a hug from Bruce to make it okay is just. painful. WFA needs everything to be wrapped up in a nice, neat little bow. so even when it starts to tackle interesting concepts, it makes them fall flat with its need to be soft, low stakes, hurt/comfort. there was a two-parter episode that dealt with the complicated mutual hatred/jealousy between Tim and Damian that *almost* really interested me because for once, it felt like the webtoon wanted to explore canon messy dynamics. but of course, it had to be fixed with one conversation and a hug. you don't mend the *years* of issues these characters have like that. WFA isn't in character because these characters are hyperbole cartoonified versions of themselves to fit within the medium and be a cute happy family.

because that right there, is the crux of it. the Batfamily fanon seeks to simplify the Batfamily and force them into a nuclear family. there are so many fantastic posts on here discussing how the nuclear family-ification of the Batfam is eroding decades worth of complex histories so i won't go too far into that. but what i will say is that there's this need, in the Batfamily fandom, for the Batfamily to exist as a unit. they are a *family*. (honestly i think calling it the Batfamily is a misnomer and has been for years but we're in too deep now.) they exist to each other first, and any teams or friends they have come secondary to this family unit. you can *specifically* see this demonstrated in what headcanons are becoming popular these days. i have an entire lengthy meta in my drafts about how i *loathe* the "the Batfamily meets the Justice League" genre of fanfic because it makes no *sense*. in order to have this genre of fic exist, you must operate under the assumption that no one in the League, or adjacent to the League, knows the Batfamily exists and are thus utterly shocked to discover Batman has kids. and to make *that* work, you have to strip *every single Batfamily member* of such important dynamics and friendships so you can lock them all in Gotham for their whole lives. Dick can't have the Titans, Tim can't have Young Justice, Duke & Cass can't have the Outsiders, Jason can't have the Outlaws, Damian can't have the Supersons, Babs can't have the Birds of Prey, and so on. because if they had these relationships, they would be known to the League. the Batfamily fandom doesn't care about this, it's just "silly fanfiction", it's not trying to be serious. but how can you say you like Dick Grayson as a character if you don't understand the Titans *are* his family? at some points of his life, moreso than the Batfamily even is. it is constantly repeated to us in most comics with Dick how much the Titans mean to him. he *needs* them to be who he is. the same extends to every other Batfamily member, most of which have been full League members at this point. but in fanon, that doesn't matter. the Batfamily are a sequestered unit first, and all of those side relationships are secondary and easy to toss away, if it makes your fanfic work better.

and because they have to be a unit first, you have these forced relationships that dump years of actual canon material for the sake of making them get along. the Batfamily fandom has its favorites and well. it's no secret it's usually the boys. Jason and Tim by *far* stand out as fandom faves so, their dynamic is a heavily explored one. it does matter that in canon they don't tend to get along and especially don't see each other as family. what matters is that you can push dynamics onto them. and so fanon gets all twisted up about which Robin Tim actually idolized as a kid (Dick) and what member of the Batfamily is pro-murder but still an older sibling figure to him and looks out for him (Helena, or if you want the dynamic of once tried to harm Tim but they've reconciled, Jean-Paul) in favor of who's the most popular. Dick, Jason, Tim, and Damian are always going to be the standouts for popularity, but it's specifically Jason and Tim who are getting fanonized the most. and that's because really, we don't have much canon content of Tim that *isn't* the comics. for Dick you've got Young Justice (tv), for Damian you've got the DCAMU, for Jason you've sort of got the Under The Red Hood movie, but Tim sort of lingers in this limbo. (yes, he's in Young Justce (tv) and Titans (live action) but in neither is he the main character nor given much depth) so, he gets a *lot* projected onto him and has become fanonized. and even with Jason's animated movies, you don't see him interact with Tim, so people build it from the ground up how they want to see it, disregarding of canon comics. i think it's what makes him so popular in the first place- he's malleable into whatever you want or need him to be.

and of course, the fanon ignores other characters in the Batfamily it doesn't know about. i feel like you could create a tier list of Batfamily characters by their popularity, going from the fandom main characters: Tim, Jason, Bruce, Alfred, Dick, Damian. to the underrated: Steph, Duke, Babs, Cass. to the forgotten about unless they're convenient for a story: Kate, the Foxes, Helena Wayne, Carrie, Selina, Harper Row, Maps, Minhkhoa Khan. to the absolutely unknown: Helena Bertinelli, Jean-Paul Valley, Onyx Adams, the Clovers, Julia Pennyworth. it's not lost on me that the ignored characters tend to be women and people of color. which is both a canon and fanon problem, DC will continue adding interesting characters to the Batfamily, play with them for a few years, then drop them to default to the "Batboys" again. and it's a vicious cycle of the fandom only caring about the "Batboys", and thus people entering the fandom via fanon osmosis won't have content about the other characters, therefore, they won't be interested in those characters enough to create it, and it's just this ouroboros consuming itself, no matter how much canon content we have of these other characters. and it's ridiculous just how large the Batfamily is becoming because of this, which is why i'm a pre-Flashpoint fan, because then the Batfamily was contained enough to actually feel like a family with every character having nuances relationships with each other, but i digress because those thoughts could be their own post.

and the thing about fanon is it doesn't exist in a vacuum. DC has started turning the comics to accommodate for what fans are asking for, because fans will beg and beg for content they're not going to consume. Tim Drake: Robin had Tim as a coffee drinker because that's the fanon accepted headcanon. and the resolution of the recent Gotham War arc was for Bruce to buy this new manor for everyone to move in and call him. nevermind that most of these characters have their own homes and have zero reason to be moving in with Bruce. Tim had his marina in Tim Drake: Robin, Dick has Bludhaven, Cass and Steph have their little side of town in Batgirls (2022), and so on. these characters are being forced together as a unit, as one big happy family living together, to appease what non-comic fans want and it's damaging comic relationships. Robin: Knight Terrors saw Jason and Tim team up and working together, which i've seen varying opinions on but i personally despised. their interactions made zero sense for any of their canon history, but it appeases them being this close sibling relationship that fanon acts like they are. also the fears they faced in their respective knight terrors didn't make sense for either character and *only* worked as a moment of bringing them together so they could reassure each other and have this weird dreamscape bonding moment. the canon is bending itself to the will of fanon rather than building on the pre-existing complex relationships. Tim barely even gets along with his most important team in Dark Crisis: Young Justice because it seems the only important relationships the Batfamily can have is with each other. and when we do see them outside of the Batfamily, it only seems to be to relive the glory days like with World's Finest: Teen Titans, instead of developing them as they currently exist. this isn't recent in the comics, it feels like you can trace it back to the New-52, but it does feel a *lot* worse over the recent years. WFA is fine when it exists in its own bubble, but the simple truth is, DC content never exists on its own. the adaptations will reflect back onto the comics. (the damage the Young Justice cartoon has done to some characters should honestly be studied) and so it does frustrate me a bit when fanon-only or adaptation-only fans act like we're being nothing but killjoys for being frustrated with this. since they don't read the comics, they don't see how the comics are suffering as a result of this.

people argue about what's out of character for the comics they don't even read. i'm sorry, but "bad dad Bruce" is consistently canon. that man is just kind of shitty. when you take someone who has the drive he has, who has this need for the Mission first, who needs a teenager in spandex next to him to keep him off the ledge, that guy is sort of going to be a shitty father figure. he just is. not on purpose or with malice, but when you compare him to any other dad in a big DC family, he sure takes the cake. it's why characters like Oliver Queen tend to *really* fucking hate Bruce for how he treats his kids. Bruce loves fiercely, but he doesn't do well with putting that love first. and his love is a controlling one, he is very particular about controlling how others in the Batfamily are "allowed" to operate. it's what drives the wedge between him and Dick, it's why Steph is never a true daughter to him. (besides the reason of her needing to be a love interest to Tim first, anyway-) i've never understood the massive outcry of people reacting to Bruce kinda being shitty in comics they're not reading. there are some moments that get ridiculously OOC with how cartoonishly evil he is (the whole Gotham War arc and that... complicated mess with Jason) but largely if you want sitcom loving nuclear father Bruce, you have to accept that is a fanon thing, not a canon one. the Batfamily being a nuclear family in *general* is fanon. most of the "Batkids" don't actually see Bruce in a particularly fatherly light and begging for moments where he calls them his kids or they call him dad outside of incredibly specific circumstances is just OOC.

it's getting harder and harder to exist peacefully in this fandom it feels like, if you don't comply to the standard fanon has set. i'm happy people are having fun with their blorbos, even if in ways i dislike, but that "harmless fandom fun" does ripple it's way back to canon, eventually. so i end up pretty tangled with my feelings because are fans at fault for DC making these poor decisions? probably not, but it certainly feels like an unfortunate cause-and-effect situation whether at the end of the day, nobody is happy. and of course, i know some fanon-only fans are striving to be more canon accurate and care about canon dynamics more than others, but for them it's always going to be an uphill battle with the above-mentioned out-of-context panels thrown around and ever-pervasive fanon overtaking anything that's truly seeking to be canon compliant. so really, it sometimes feels like we're all losing.

#necrotic festerings #batfamily #batfamily meta #dc comics #fandom meta #fan studies #fanon vs canon #i deleted paragraphs of this to try to make it shorter. it failed btw.#anyway i got into comics when i was like 12 with the dark knight returns #and if i hadn't been into this medium for a decade i don't think i would be able to get into it as an adult so i get it #bc i'm trying to get into marvel comics and fuck ME am i confused as fuck.#do marvel comics have like. an equivalent to crisis events?#is the ultimates like their version of the new-52? i do NOT know #it's so hard and daunting so trust me i get it #if you never wanna pick up a comic god i respect you you're so right this is fucking miserable #i want to live and let live in fandom but *god* i'm struggling here #i used to bend to the will of fanon fun fact #i wrote my share of tim and jason fics playing into fanon tropes. god i hate them *now* but they did fucking numbers.#and i used to care more about getting attention in fandom than being accurate #i've matured now. it's why i write on anonymous so much to remind myself this should be for me.#anyway i could do a character study on every batfam member as fanon vs canon #ESPECIALLY tim and jason. i know so much about them trust me.#jason todd fans annoyed me so much i once sat and read almost every fucking jason comic. i didn't even like him.#but i tell you what i know that man and he will never leave my top five characters on league of comics.#this is so long. is anyone going to read all of this.#if you do you're a fucking trooper i'm saluting you.#this isn't even all of my thoughts i had to condense myself.#bc i also have thoughts about how this means some characters no longer get to exist outside of the batfam #because they only exist as a member of the unit #ergo we have very little current content of helena bertinelli or onyx adams or duke thomas

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