#i don't know ship conventions for this fandom

[unfriendlyamazon]

Pink Cake (Stardew Valley)

and now for something completely different

rating: T

pairing: Haley/Abigail

warnings: WLW Fluff, Hair Dying, Pet Names

summary:

Haley peeked again. The chemical smell of the hair dye wafted up from where Abigail had mixed it, and she wrinkled her nose. “You can’t make me hideous,” she said. “Promise this isn’t a prank.” “Oh, yeah, this is the perfect prank,” Abigail said dryly. “I work my way into the Pink Princess’ good graces for smooching and sleepovers just so I can convince you to try a different hair color. Ha ha ha I am so evil.” Abigail dyes Haley's hair.

That's right I write fanfiction for other fandoms. I'm going to be dipping my toe into some Stardew Valley pairings I find amusing and I thought I'd start with black and pink girlies themselves.

Read It Here on AO3

[joejhang]

fanon neil vs canon neil

god i am so FUCKING done with the aftg fandom mischaracterising neil i'm literally writing fucking ESSAYS about it and pacing circles muttering about it under my breath it's driving me up the goddamn wall so i am going to word vomit brain dump yap about all of it in an incoherent tumblr text post. spoilers ahead continue at ur own risk

i've said it before and i'll say it again I HATE FANON NEIL. istg this fandom LOVES to mischaracterise neil and ykw i think i know why. they take the smallest most unnoticeable parts of his personality and then exaggerate them to disproportionate and unrealistic levels in order for him to fit their idea of a conventional, stereotypical and desirable main character. they smooth out his jagged edges and prick at his "insecurities" to make him more likeable, more acceptable and more conventional of a narrator/main character and in doing so erase so fucking much of his personality and draw as a character that he loses just about all of the flavour that made me love him in canon. and also especially within the andreil dynamic this fucking fandom just loves to tweak neil's character until he's basically unrecognisable just so they can cram andreil into some preconceived socially acceptable clichéd ship dynamic. because andrew is perceived as the typical mysterious, moody and grumpy love interest therefore neil just has to be the sunshiney smiley blushing cute softboy in exchange. yeah because all gay ships have to be grumpy-sunshine and black cat-golden retriever dynamic. i raise you: andreil's dynamic doesn't work because of their differences it works because of their similarities. if u think about it andrew and neil are honestly very similar people in the way they think and process emotions and events and that's what allows them to connect and understand each other. andreil would not work if neil was super sunshiney and a blushy soft mess and andrew was the stoic, never smiling, unemotional stone of a guy the fandom loves to make them. just accept they do not fit into the conventional boxes laid out by booktok for what gay ships look like. i fucking digress.

neil is also just insanely mischaracterised on his own. people love making him very jittery and insanely oblivious and easily flustered with a generous serving of self-esteem issues. i hate to break it to you guys: neil josten is not insecure. i don't think there's a single instant in the series where neil is actually insecure about anything. as a narrator, person and character, neil is very realistic, pragmatic and logical. ruthlessly so. i'd say on this, neil is even more cerebral and unemotional than andrew is. neil is very straightforward and realistic abt himself in his narration and i'd honestly say his opinion and views about himself are one of the only things in the story that isn't affected by his narrator bias. if neil is anything, it's self-aware. i'm now going to present all my fucking evidence.

neil doesn't have a sexuality crisis. literally in the entire series never once does he even question his fucking sexuality. it's implied he's already figured out he's aspec/demisexual from the moment nicky questions him about his sexuality. neil says "i don't swing" and follows up in his narration: it wasn't quite the truth, but it was close enough. and later when he starts his relationship with andrew he doesn't ever question the nature of his feelings towards andrew or even anyone else and is pretty clear about it when andrew breaches the topic: "kissing you doesn't make me look at them any differently" so yeah neil is pretty certain and aware of his sexuality.

neil isn't insecure about his appearance. i feel like this is gonna require a bit of work to explain but hear me out. it is mentioned several times that neil has a complicated relationship with his appearance because he looks so much like his father/abuser. this is obviously understandable; you wouldn't want to look into the mirror and see the man who gave u all ur scars. that being said, neil doesn't have a lot of strong emotions regarding his appearance. most of his feelings of panic tied to when r*ko dyed back his hair is because of how it would be a lot easier for his father to discover him now that he has his original colouring back. i'm also pretty sure neil knows that he's cute. like it's never explicitly stated but i've reread aftg maybe fifty times and trust me i can read between the lines. neil explicitly says that he has a "love-hate relationship with his reflection out of necessity" and while the "hate" part of that statement is obvious: he doesn't like that he resembles his father, i've sort of just accepted that the "love" part of it is that he knows he's kinda fine. it's not brought up by him at all bc neil as a person is not one to linger on people's appearances almost at all. i think the only people to get a decent amount of lines dedicated to their appearance in the narration are allison and andrew. but yeah i genuinely don't think neil thinks he's ugly or unattractive and he's probably definitely been told how cute he is by others enough that he doesn't harbour any delusions about how he looks. regarding his scars, he never expresses any insecurity towards them and how they look, he just doesn't like them on display understandably bc of how acutely they point to his past and childhood that he's trying to hide.

neil is actually very very confident in his own and other people's abilties. this is esp regarding exy. he knows he's good at the game. like he knows. the most distinct example i can think of for this point is when kevin tells neil that he was at castle evermore to try out for the perfect court when they were younger. neil doesn't even doubt for a fucking second that he would've made it onto the perfect court. never does. he skips over the second-guessing and doubt part and just straight up starts daydreaming about the future he could've had playing with kevin and r*ko. like that really got me bc it's easy to assume neil would be super unassuming and have low self-esteem but no like neil doesn't doubt for a fucking second that he deserves to be perfect court. it's just that he doesn't believe in r*ko's delusions enough to play along with it by the time he gets the tattoo. he's also insanely confident about the foxes and their abilities and also kevin by the end of the series. at the beginning he takes a pretty realistic vantage point and says that with the way things are, the foxes will never beat the ravens. but even with that pov he still has the gall to challenge r*ko on LIVE TV and i doubt he's lying when he declares so boldly to everyone that if the foxes were united they'd be an unstoppable force (and guess what he was fucking RIGHT). and by the end, when the foxes are united, he has no more room left for doubt at all. some guy tells neil to kick the ravens' asses and neil just replies with zero hesitation "that's the plan". like he's so fucking on board with it. and he never once doubts that kevin is the best striker in the game. like literally never. at first he considers r*ko and kevin on par with each other (possibly, it's never stated outright) but by the end he literally has no doubts when he says "kevin is the best striker" like goddamn the amount of confidence neil has is so underrated.

neil is a very unemotional narrator. it actually gets me all the time how logical and ruthlessly pragmatic neil's narration and inner monologue is. some of the only strong emotions portrayed in neil's narration are anger, irritation and occasionally grief, which is only ever triggered by major trauma-inducing events (e.g. dr*ke). almost all of his inner monologue is analytical and observing others and dissecting either other people or the situation he's in. and almost all of his decisions and actions are made based on impulse and instinct. neil is a very instinctive person. this is outright stated in the way he plays exy; in theory, he can't give u a lot, but in the heat of the moment he's at his best. this applies to practically all facets of neil's life. he never plans his moves or what he's gonna say (except like that one time when he planned out what half-truth he was gonna tell andrew post-columbia). he's super quick and on the ball and literally does whatever the fuck he wants at any given moment. he's also insanely good at compartmentalising. like it's difficult to explain but while his priorities are obv hilariously skewed, they're also very clear in his mind. things he considers unimportant he simply just doesn't think about. what others look like and what they think of him don't factor into his internal monologue or his thoughts at all he literally just files them away in the back of his mind until they do end up becoming useful or important to him. he barely comments on andrew's appearance at all until andrew becomes someone worth staring at and admiring for him. the only reason he describes allison and renee in the detail that he does is because it's important in understanding how and why he reacts to them the way he does. this man was literally about to lose his goddamn mind at the fall banquet but he specifically reserved his mental breakdown for after the banquet so he could spend his time roasting the fuck out of r*ko. bro fully locked in and was like "clock riko now break down later" and i respect it.

neil doesn't actually have a martyr complex. it's funny because almost all of aftg is him being the absolute fucking opposite of a martyr. he wilfully sticks around the foxes knowing he's putting himself and them in danger. he doesn't "sacrifice" himself until he's absolutely forced to by his father's people. by then, he's already told himself he can't and won't run and he's smart enough to know he'll never get away anyway. and going to evermore wasn't about self-sacrifice or martyrdom it was about protecting andrew and those two are pretty fucking different. he knew he was coming back from evermore and he knew that he wouldn't die there, despite all the shit he went through, so i don't think that can be counted as "self-sacrifice". he was doing what he had to do to protect andrew, the same as andrew would've done for neil or aaron or kevin or anyone else he'd sworn to protect. the kidnapping in baltimore was the culmination of neil's character arc, which isn't really about learning to be selfless and self-sacrificing, it's about learning to stand his ground and stop running. those things r crucially different: neil not running in baltimore wasn't about selflessness, it was about courage. yes, part of it was obviously inspired by the foxes and motivated by not wanting them to be hurt but i truly believe it ultimately was about neil learning to stand his own ground and make his own home and have it be something he's willing to die for. call it whatever u want honestly i just don't think neil is as much of a martyr/sacrificial lamb as the fandom makes him out to be.

[makiquas]

Its Butchtober. Bear with me for a second as I rant about children's cartoon ships, butchphobia, the conditional acceptance of butches in sapphic spaces on the basis of desirability, and feeling erased as a butch kid.

It's so funny that I realised early on as a 2000-2010s teen/kid how a lot of so called "sapphics" of social media are really, really anti butch4butch, only by interacting with certain subsets of Catradora and Appledash haters. It may be flippant to connect butchphobia with children's cartoons, but you cannot deny it is there. We finally had two canon butch4butch and masc4masc lesbian animated ships. And the fandoms decided that the best possible reaction to this is to violently hate on the ships for bullshit reasons and write up masterdocs about how the butch character actually looks better with a femme character instead (in both cases–Rarity and Glimmer, who is arguably feminine but not femme, but that's a conversation for another day, how the SPOP fandom waters down gender identities for aesthetics).

This is not just about two cartoon ships; this mindset of seeing two masc lesbians and immediately going "actually they act like bros; but this BUTCHFEMME couple has real chemistry" comes off sounding really, really bad in 2024 when you have no idea how butch identity operates, outside of depicting us as pants-wearing sexually aggressive muscular women. Butches ARE bros, even the ones who kiss each other. Camaraderie and tomboyish swagger *is* a part of their life. It's not our fault you are too fanfic trope-pilled to read these interactions are sexless friendship bantering.

It's also quite concerning, given how there are only a handful of butch4butch books in the market, and almost all of them talk about the stigmatizing of relationships between two butches/studs/masc lesbians. There are many butch lesbians who themselves face internalized butchphobia because of societal standards and expectations of being turned into the "gallant" provider of femmes. Butch and femme are not always inherently complementary, butches can be attracted to other butches, there is no "natural order" model of lesbian/sapphic attraction and your thinly veiled butchphobia is really off-putting, given you guys don't seem to extend that same rhetoric to mascfemme ships like Korrasami or Caitvi, or femme-femme ships like Harlivy.

Here, I must mention relationships like Rei and Kaoru from Oniisama E, or Jess and Lupe from A League of Their Own, who have bucket loads of chemistry but still have some vehement antis only because both the lesbians are masculine. (What's funny is the new wave of lesbian Oniisama E fans are almost all Rei/Kaoru shippers despite the show putting them into two butchfemme pairings.) Something something to be butch4butch is to be failing the tests of palatability and desirability according to conventional models of societal norms. Forever.

Again, one may have valid reasons for disliking these fictional ships (what, I genuinely don't know). But it *is* weird that you guys can watch fifty white fem4fem sapphic shows in a year and read 100+ GL with the same feminine girlish blonde and brunette/pink haired archetype and not bat an eyelid, but conjure a world of made-up "platonic" dynamics just because you read every butch4butch interaction as fundamentally platonic.

A lot of you love to throw around Stone Butch Blues as a catchphrase to educate strangers on the internet about 1950s-70s blue-collar bar culture and USA butch femme history, but how many of you actually know that within the book itself, the lead character acts prejudiced and hates on another butch for being butch4butch? How many of you know that she apologizes to her friend at the end for her hateful remarks? Fun fact: when you ostracize a butch for not fitting into your butch-femme subculture aesthetic, you're no better than lesbiphobic bigots actually.

Anyway, here are some butch4butch resources if you are a baby butch4butch and feel alienated by these kinds of weird rhetoric in online and fandom queer spaces too:

Butch4Butch romance books

My Butch4Butch books masterdoc (**being updated regularly**)

Leo Wilder's Butch4Butch writing (18+)

Butch4Butch photography archive (insta)

Boyish² Butch4Butch yuri anthology (insta)

@milsae Butch4Butch artist (tumblr/insta)

This post is made by a trans masc butch of color. Terfs, racists, biphobes and radfems kindly do not derail or interact.

[myfandomrealitea]

okay, so- this is coming from someone who really hasn't engaged in fandom discourse, especially regarding shipping and such. I dearly hope this doesn't come across as bait or troll, I'm genuinely curious and want to learn. apologies for the possibly-dumb question, but I really just need to ask-

what is proshipping? and what are 'antis'?

you know how it is, when you ask around you always get a biased answer one way or another. "proshippers are pedos" "proshippers all condone incest" "proship Bad and if you interact You Are Bad" (i think these are 'anti' points of view? am i using that term right? that's the rhetoric ive mainly heard). but despite all of that, i don't know if ive ever actually gotten a straight answer as to just.. what it factually is. because it doesn't feel like the sort of thing that you can boil down to insults or accusations or whatnot. it's all just very confusing to me, especially because i come from a place that essentially just told me to avoid like the plague and never look back. sorry, this became a bit of a ramble, lol. thank you so much in advance, i hope i'm not being a bother or insulting with this ^^;

The modern term; 'proship' (s.a; 'proshipping' and 'profiction') is an evolution of an earlier fandom acronym known as: 'SALS.'

Ship And Let Ship

SALS was one of the earliest fandom adoptions and interpretations of the concept of not bullying others for what they shipped or their fandom interests, and not trying to control or dictate what was "allowed" to be shipped or enjoyed. The most notable origin of SALS was during the early years of accessible fandom via Star Trek, and the present homophobia and misogyny in a largely male-dominated community.

As woman became more involved in fandom spaces, the presence of 'other' ships and pairings began to increase. M/M, F/F that wasn't purely for sexual gratification, and M/O and F/O (where 'O' is Other) pairings were popular amongst women, much as they still are today.

Not only did the presence of women in a "male space" receive a not insignificantly negative reaction, so too did them filling the fandom space with their shipping content. Now; sexism and misogyny and homophobia were not entirely to blame. Again as is still very much present today, people simply Did Not Like Certain Ships or Characters. And as they still do today, they'd spread hate about them and to the people who did enjoy them.

Thus: the birth of SALS.

(In other words: I like what I like and it has fuck all to do with you. Shut up and move on.)

Back then, SALS was mostly contained to just that. Ships and characters. Since back in that era 'taboo topics' and 'sexual content' were still pretty covert, people weren't exactly arguing the merits of incest in public forums and at conventions.

However, as all things do, the internet evolved. Society evolved. Media evolved. And so too did 'SALS' evolve in keeping with the new culture and subjects present in fandom spaces.

Suddenly it wasn't just ships and characters to be advocated for. It was themes. Subjects. Kinks. Plots. The more things people found to enjoy, so too did the more things people found to hate.

'Proship' is actually grammatically pro-ship. As in; in support of shipping. This is why I always state that the modern conceptions of proshipping would more accurately be coined profiction. It is no longer just about ships, but fiction as a whole.

However; the core value and sole inherent point of being proship, SALS, profiction and so forth remains exactly the same:

[I/We] believe you have no right to harm others over the [ship/content] they create or consume and [I/we] do not have the right to dictate what is or is not allowed in fandom spaces.

That's it. Don't harass people for what they enjoy fictionally. Don't try to force them into not enjoying or being able to enjoy it.

Of course, the modern adaption varies wildly in terms of 'additional values' thanks to the evolution of the term and what it can encompass. However, there is certainly no obligation to:

Create or consume content you are uncomfortable with.

Create or consume content regarded as 'taboo' or 'triggering.' Such as incest.

Be involved with any aforementioned content beyond turning a blind eye if its not your thing.

Inherently, anyone who says they're 'neutral' on the matter but firmly believes in minding their own business is just a proshipper refusing to use the label if you're taking the term solely at its core value.

In terms of 'antis' they're just the antithesis of the above. Antis are people who generally believe that fiction is irrevocably tied in with who you are, what you believe/condone, and that real-life limitations and values should also apply to fiction.

Although, its is heavy debated and it wildly varies per individual to the degree this is taken.

(E.g: some 'antis' believe you should only write rape fic if you are a victim using it as catharsis or education. Other 'antis' believe there's absolutely no excuse or reason to write rape fic at all.)

Antis typically believe that enjoyment or being invested in content which is regarded as harmful or illegal in real life is morally unsound and reflects that you're a bad or morally unsound person.

Although I disagree, I can honestly say in some aspects I do understand this reasoning. I don't agree, but I do understand why people may come to that conclusion.

As with proshippers, antis vary from people who simply ignore and block content they don't agree with to radicals.

'Anti' is again a prefix. Although modern adoption of the term uses it as a singular signifier, it would grammatically be anti-[fandom], anti-[character], ect. As was commonly used in the past.

The rhetoric that all proshippers are pedophiles or support incest is common-spread and effective 'anti' propaganda. Similar to how so many people believe 'proship' inherently signifies that you must create and/or consume taboo or darker content.

It doesn't.

¹ Proship may also be accurately termed as simply: 'anti-harassment.' ² Its important to note the 'definition' of these terms may vary wildly depending on the individual. However, detailed above is the most historical use and evolution of the terms and their definitions.

[thebibliosphere]

I saw your post about ingram, and out of curiosity, is there some advantage to going through the whole self-publishing thing with retailers when you're just starting out? like I mean the way that fandom zines work is that they don't even bother going through ingram or amazon or whatever. they just set up a social media site (usually twitter) to gain followers, open preorders (usually 1-2 months in length) to generate the costs of printing upfront, and then sell anywhere from a few dozen to several hundred copies of their books (usually artbooks, but anthologies exist too). I've seen some zines generate over a thousand orders. they're kind of like pop-up shops, except for books. maybe the sales numbers aren't so impressive to a real author, but the profit generated is typically waaaay more than the $75+ apparently needed for Ingram Spark, so I still feel like new authors could benefit from this method too, especially if they just need some start-up cash to eventually move to ingram if they want to for subsequent runs of their book. I think authors would also have to set aside some of the pre-order money to buy an ISBN number to have printed on their book, and I'm not really sure what other differences there are, but I just wanted to ask about it in case there's some huge disadvantage I'm missing!

So, popup zines work well for some people, and I know some authors who kickstart their work successfully. But for a lot, it's just not feasible as a long-term stratedy. Or even as a means to get off the ground.

Fanzines succeed primarily because an existing fanbase is willing and ready to throw money at something they love. They’ve got a favorite writer or artist they want to support. Supporting all the others is just a happy by-product. They also take a HUGE amount of short-term but intense planning that just doesn’t always jive with how some of us work.

I, for one, would never offer to organize a fanzine. I’ll take part in them as a creator, but I’d rather throw myself off a cliff than subject myself to wrangling that many people and dealing with the legal logistics.

When it comes to authors doing anthologies, it'svery much the same. The success of the funding often hinges on having other big-name authors involved whose existing fans will prop up the project. Or having a huge marketing budget.

Most self-pub authors have zero marketing budget. I’m one of them, and I’m under no illusions that my work would not be as popular and self-sustaining as it is if I didn’t have a large Tumblr blog.

When I thank Tumblr in my forewards, I am utterly sincere. Tumblr brought fandom levels of enthusiasm to an unknown work and broke the Amazon algorithm so hard, that Amazon thought I was bot sniping my way to multiple #1 spots and froze my sales rankings.

That’s not the norm. And while I could probably kickstart my own work as an indie creator, that’s because I’ve put literal decades into building up a readership. I’ve been doing this since I was 16 and realized people thought I was funny. I didn’t know what to do with it or if I’d ever actually write anything, but it meant the groundwork was already there (thank you, past-me). I basically fell upward into my success by virtue of never being able to shut the fuck up and wanting to make people laugh. Clown instincts too strong.

New or first-time authors trying to sell their work without that will find it infinitely harder.

All of that aside, even if an unknown author somehow gets lucky and manages to fund their work, there’s still the question of shipping and distribution logistics. Are you shipping everything yourself? Better hope you’re able-bodied and have the time for it. (for reference, it took me months to ship out 300 patreon hardbacks because of my disabilites. It damaged my back and hands. I couldn’t type for several weeks after I was done.)

Are you going to sell primarily at conventions? Better hope you’re able-bodied, have the time and don’t have cripling anxiety about being in large groups...

Also, will selling a dozen to a few thousand copies in one burst be sustainable in the long run as a career? Not for me. Doing things via Ingram and Amazon means I earn a steady trickle of sales for the rest of my life provided the platforms remain and so long as I keep working and can generate interest in the series, not just when I have funds to pay for physical copies to sell. The one-time (in theory) cost of $75 to distribute through Ingram gets paid off pretty quick that way. And it doesn't require the same logistics as doing the popup/crowdfund.

Ultimately, it comes down to what you are capable of but also the type of work you’re doing. If you’ve got an extended network of fellow creatives who will back you or you’ve got a large following elsewhere, doing it like a popup might work for you.

If you’re an exhausted burnout who can’t fathom the short but intense amount of organization that sort of thing requires, not to mention doing it over and over and over... Ehhhhh. No thank you.

[stanfordsweater]

hello i'm new to the supernatural fandom and you have been in my recommendeds for a while, reasons to ship wincest???

i thought for a long time about how to respond to this so imma link catherine tosenberger's excellent analysis of the first few seasons where "the most resistive aspect of Wincest fan fiction is that it gives the main characters a lasting happiness that the series eternally defers."

to begin with, there are a lot of people who will argue for the toxic codependency and i love them and also love it but the reason i've been here for well over a decade is because of the way that wincest offers you two paths: you can follow the path of those who write endless meta about how one or the other brother is abusive and how toxic it is and eventually brainwash yourself into being unable to ship it, or you can follow the path of love and light and perspective and recognize 1. these are fictional characters and b. there are no two characters in genre tv who are as devoted to each other as sam and dean. there is no plotline that follows through fifteen seasons of being obsessed with each other.

by choosing the incest pill, you grant yourself access to fifteen seasons of generally good tv ABOUT YOUR SHIP EXCLUSIVELY. sam and dean are the main characters and you will always know, opening up an episode, that they will be there, doing their weird-ass jealous obsessiveness, and you will never despair about not having them present, together, even if they're fighting or struggling or depressed. that is a very special thing!

now, beyond that, assuming you've watched the show, there's many reasons to cross the incest line. FIRSTLY, everyone involved was well aware of what they were doing. we have a few choice quotes i've collected below about their relationship that ramps up the intensity:

--

"Ultimately, they are pathologically dishonest with each other because John Winchester was pathologically elusive to them," consulting producer Ben Edlund says. "They learned that the truth is this dangerous thing, and that you shouldn't speak it. He even taught them to keep secrets from each other for strategic purposes." With all of the supernatural, apocalyptic, tragic drama woven into the show, Sam and Dean's relationship is rooted in human emotion. "When you look at the dysfunction that they show to each other, it comes directly from how they were brought up, and that's a kind of dysfunction that people in this world continue to face. 'Why didn't my dad tell me that he loved me yesterday?' We're just people sharing the same kind of thing," Edlund says.

--

"Why do you think Dean has had such a hard time forgiving Cas when he did forgive Sam for a similar betrayal?"

I think the easy answer is blood, I think the easy answer is family, even though if there was a family in this show it would include Bobby, it would include Cas, it would include these-- these-- kind of, broken war-torn heroes we've come to know, and you know, Bobby has that famous line, "family don't end with blood," but it is his brother, at the end of the day, that's the closest he has to a companion, and has had for a companion for many years, so I think with Cas there was always, "he's unnatural, he's an angel," and I think that for Dean, relating to someone like that, it's tricky, relating to monsters, relating to anything supernatural, his brother is flesh and blood, it's tangible, he can touch that.

--

Obviously the relationship between Sam and Dean is central to our show but we’ve been building this rift between Sam and Dean all season, so that led to the idea of having this young male character that sort of idolizes Dean and does all the cool stuff that Sam won’t do, and that’s Dean’s perfect mate.

(the thing sam won't do is literally swapping spit with him. tell me i'm lying)

--

in the hunt, page 37

--

Not all fans are content simply to attend conventions. Some of them want to take a hand in the story, and their fan fiction can explore areas mostly untouched on the show, like the latent homoerotic suggestiveness of the Winchesters’ intense relationship.

-THE NEW YORK TIMES

--

"eyefuck" became a well-known script shorthand because of how intense j2 looked at each other as sam and dean

--

it's a terrible life draft script:

Note B) They are supposed to be together

Note C) each been all alone in separate life finally found kindred spirit

--

in the hunt, page 158

--

i haven't included any eric kripke quotes because he has so much wrong with him that i don't want to enable it. this is a compliment. it is one of the highest i can give.

SO-- what these quotes tell us:

sam and dean are relatable because their relationship is intensely human

sam and dean have shared secrets they cannot voice to one another but that nonetheless make them inseparable

people have been writing motherfucking essays about sam and dean's homoeroticism since the show aired

within the mythology of the show, sam and dean are meant to be together above all other relationships

...oh, you need more? i didn't think i'd get this far. um... okay... look at them???

if you choose to walk this path you will find yourself crying and taking screenshots every time they look at each other or touch each other or hold each other and you will thank the lord in heaven that we were granted this intensely wild and beautiful homoerotic relationship back in 2005 and praise jesus that you can always return to their raw sexual chemistry-- "In fact, much like the early X-Files, the show is fueled past its failings almost entirely by the chemistry between the two principals, the boys who, like Mulder and Scully, generate enough sexual tension to power a small city" as quoted by whitney cox in 2006 in an article that otherwise fails to bring anything to the table, sorry if you love it for your meta but also literally just go read the catherine tosenberger essay

you still need more????? jesus, what have you shipped prior to this? well, go watch the pilot and enjoy the fact that the first scene these two have together they are wrestling on the floor (sexually) and getting all romantically silhouetted against this beautiful lighting

and then go watch a few fanvids like this or this and then watch the pilot and watch this and then read this post about how supernatural happily wields incest as a tool of horror and as comedy and then scroll through my entire family horror show tag to understand more and then watch this immaculate video that deals with the whole thing and think about how all these things were happening in 2005 and remember the fact that sam and dean are the main characters of the universe... and then maybe just watch the show and please do not become an annoying shit poster who just talks about how they hate it🙏

[theminecraftbee]

Just out of curiosity, do you know any alternative ways of showing types of relationships that could be used on ao3? I find the & and / method to be very constraining, especially with ambiguous or multi-dimensional relationships. & for platonic and / for romantic does not allow for a proper representation of nonstandard relationships, for example an enemy/loathing or polyamorous relationship. (Homestuck quadrants are their own thing and are not what I am asking for/about.)

answer that answers your question:

yes and no. if you just want another category of markers to exist, i know you said no homestuck quadrants, but those are probably most commonly used, although they're all synned to the / tag. i've seen some exchanges that want to differentiate use /& together, i've seen ? be used, and i've seen some invent their own tag (largely exchanges use these for matching purposes and it's rare but i HAVE seen it). however, there's no unifying convention, and ao3 will eventually syn all of these to either the / or & tag (usually the / unless the wranglers have a very good reason to think it's the & tbh). so know that even if you use your own symbol, it will show up in the relationship tag it ends up synned to.

one of the most common solutions to this is to use the symbol closest to what you want--personally i tend to just use the & unless there's fic content i think gen fans would really hate, since & is the tag that covers the much wider spectrum of relationships in my head, although some people will differ--and use freeform tags to disambiguate. for example, last days has the & tag for joe and cleo, along with a "queerplatonic relationships" tag! i believe "ambiguous relationships" is also a canonical tag, and you don't have to use canonicals if you can't find the one you like! the world is your oyster.

(here i'll also note: the & doesn't require them be like... friends. it just requires the fic be about their relationship in some way, and for this relationship to not be romantic or sexual. enemies is absolutely covered here, as is like, weird coworkers, or even tags like "hero & the public".)

(similarly, the / tag doesn't require they like each other, it just requires it to be a "ship"; enemies who have a ton of sexual tension goes under this, as do things like abusive romantic or sexual relationships; just make sure you're using your warnings and additional tags appropriately!)

the other most common solution is to tag both the / and & tag and use a tag like the "ambiguous relationships" or "this can be read as either" or "queerplatonic relationships" or whatever other disambiguating tag you think it needs. this is less common in the mcyt fandom because of the mcyt fandom's history of being SUPER WEIRD about shipping, but it's often the most common solution in fandoms that aren't this one.

"i want ao3 to have a ship tag that is neither & nor /, and is not considered synonymous with either" unfortunately this doesn't exist and isn't going to. like i'd love to say there's a way to make it exist but it Won't because of how ao3 was designed to work on a backend level and also ao3 does NOT change quickly, for better or for worse. you're going to have to pick between "make up a symbol and it will probably be synned to /", "use the tag you think you like best", or "use both". i wish there was another option too, if it helps, but the additional tags are really useful here!

"use no relationship tag" is also always an option; the relationship tag is not a required tag!

answer that answers your two examples, neither of which really fit the question as i understand it, hence me separating them out:

a fic about the relationship between two enemies is either the & tag if you just want the one that is actually meant to be used or the / tag if you mean for it to be like, the kind of enemies that have sexual tension. use additional tags to additionally disambiguate (example: just put in the tags the canonical tag "enemies" and you're good to go). the & tag is for ANY kind of platonic relationship, it does not require the two characters like each other, only that the fic is about their relationship! you can use the homestuck <3< if you REALLY wanna make it clear but that's synned to /, so like, up to you. if you're super worried someone will misunderstand the & tag you can also just not tag a relationship, relationships aren't mandatory tags.

i have no idea why you're asking about polyamory because that has a solution that's entirely unrelated to the problem you propose: you just tag the ship. ship tags with more than two names in them are legal tags, as long as it doesn't go over ao3's tag character limit you're good. if you do hit the limit, just use more than one tag! this is totally fine and follows ao3 conventions, don't worry. if it's the kind of polyamorous relationship with metamours, where not everyone is dating everyone, this is where more than one overlapping relationship tag REALLY helps. plus: you can mix / and & tags! not all of them will be canonical yet, but that's true of ANY ship tag you're originating! i have seen the form of "character/character & character" in many fandoms before, it's totally valid and will disambiguate! (also, the ensemble tags may help you here if you're doing like, a polyhermits thing; "hermitcraft ensemble/hermitcraft ensemble" is a legal tag and i think what polyhermits is probably synned to.)

so yeah, hopefully this helps some! good luck out there!

[saintsenara]

asenora i will listen to anything you have to say about these characters ever. please tell us what the tea is with dron

as i rummage through the backlog of messages in my inbox the thing that i have discovered is that you girlies [gender neutral] are absolutely clamouring for citizenship of dron nation.

[thank you to @spectral-kitty, @thesilverstarling, and two mystery anons!]

to which i say, the borders are open, baby. you just have to read the following manifesto:

why fandom needs to stop sleeping on dron

something i am continually banging on about, as regular readers know, is the harry potter series' fondness for assigning [male] characters to narrative mirror pairings.

exploring these pairings is interesting in and of itself without a romantic dimension being involved - i could talk for hours about the mirrored approach to guilt and grief in snape and sirius' characterisation - but it's also true that several of the most interesting ships which can be drawn [however non-canonically] from the text are between the two halves of each mirror pairing.

tomarrymort is the obvious one, snack [or starprince or snirius or whatever we're calling it] is starting to get the attention it deserves, but people are still sleeping on draco malfoy/ron weasley [and also, may i say, on lucius malfoy/arthur weasley and narcissa malfoy/molly weasley], largely - i fear - due to the sheer popularity of drarry and dramione.

i'll be honest that i really don't like dramione, and i'm generally ambivalent towards drarry, but i do love dron. and the narrative mirror aspect is entirely the reason why.

ron and draco begin the series as mirror archetypes within the genre conventions of a children's boarding school romp. ron is the loyal, humble sidekick of the everyman protagonist, draco is the everyman protagonist's posh, stuck-up rival. both are insiders to the world of the story - whereas harry, the reader surrogate, is not - who introduce harry to the positive and negative aspects of the wizarding world respectively.

as a result, ron and draco are mirrors in terms of personality, and are much more similar to each other than either is to harry or hermione. this doesn't, of course, preclude ronarry [a ship i adore] or romione [which i've defended here] or drarry or dramione [if ya nasty], but it introduces a specific - and very interesting - tension into the pairing which is absent from these other ships.

both ron and draco have shared positive traits - they're both loyal [and their loyalty is very practical and pragmatic - ron is not hagrid, whose faith in e.g. dumbledore is totally unwavering; draco is not bellatrix, whose faith in voldemort is the same], they're both highly observant, they're both quick-witted, they're both capable of doing the right thing - if not always immediately [which is, in fact, more admirable than being preternaturally willing to suffer and sacrifice], and so on.

they also have shared negative traits. they're both attention-seeking [ron fucking loves nearly being knifed by sirius and you just know draco was seething], self-aggrandising, insecure, sulky, and predisposed to jealousy.

and this is a gift for authors, because it means that dron butt heads in a relationship in ways which allow for real character growth... or otherwise.

one issue that i have with drarry is that it often feels like the change either one goes through within a fic is kind of out of character. for example, you have a harry who feels insecure and haunted by his ill-treatment of draco [this is a man whose response to committing attempted murder is to be raging that it reduces the time he has free to hit on ginny], or a harry who is chasing after a cool and sophisticated draco who eventually learns to open up [whereas if there's two things draco isn't, it's someone who keeps his thoughts to himself and someone who isn't a distinctly unsophisticated flop].

dron, however, react to conflict in the same way - which means that the two of them finding themselves in conflict with each other absolutely slaps. they also have similar levels of emotional intelligence, and are likely - if they're inclined to - to be able to communicate with each other and work through issues surprisingly effectively. they can be a mess, or they can be a happy-ever-after, and i like that in a ship.

but, while ron and draco are mirror archetypes, they are specifically children's literature mirror archetypes. ron's role as harry's guide to the world diminishes in the later books, as the series' horizons move beyond hogwarts to think about wizarding society and voldemort's impact upon it more widely [he is replaced by characters such as dumbledore]; while harry becomes considerably less bothered by the pettiness of draco's rivalry with him [concerned as it is with things like being good at quidditch and getting away with misbehaviour at school] as the enemies he's focused on shift to being the resurrected voldemort and his death eaters.

which is to say that dron makes considerably more sense within a hogwarts setting than drarry.

as i've said elsewhere, an issue i have with drarry is that it's frequently written in a way which suggests that harry and draco have a mutual obsession with each other - while the actual evidence of canon is that, while draco is [as his archetype demands] preoccupied with what harry's doing, harry rarely gives the impression of caring what his rival is up to unless directly compelled to by draco's own attention-seeking.

ron, in contrast, spends a lot of time noticing things about draco unprompted - he can, for instance, recall overhearing him boasting offhand about what broom he owns in philosopher's stone - and retaining this information in order to deploy it at the opportune time to get a rise out of him. he delights constantly in his misfortune [him being hyped for days because draco's annoyed harry gets a firebolt is beautiful]. he's ready to throw hands with him at any given opportunity, often giving those of us who thrive on cheap innuendo plenty of material in the process [draco finds himself, for example 'on all fours, banging the ground with his fist' after having ron's wand pointed in his face... same, girl.] and he tends to consider draco much more integral to the various shenanigans which take place in the castle than harry does [ron is the main proponent of the 'draco malfoy is the heir of slytherin' theory in chamber of secrets - and he is shook when draco reveals that he's wrong].

and draco does the same. he comes into the trio's compartment on the train in goblet of fire and immediately starts telling ron how unfashionable his dress robes are. he obsesses over ron's position as gryffindor keeper for months - and, of course, makes up a song about it, which isn't exactly helping him pull off 'i don't think about you at all', is it? - and ron is profoundly affected by the taunts in way that harry, who doesn't really care what draco thinks of him, isn't. and he constantly goes out of his way to provoke ron into trying to punch him [him shoulder-barging ron in half-blood prince just after harry's essentially outed him as a death eater in madam malkins... exquisite pettiness].

all of which is to say, their interactions feel very teenage and petty and silly all the way through to the end of half-blood prince in a way that draco's interactions with harry and hermione don't, and - therefore - i sincerely think that dron can be made to work much more plausibly as a pairing in fics set while the characters are at school.

my final point in favour of dron is that they mirror each other in their approach to their other relationships, and the tension this causes is really interesting to explore.

both ron and draco have mirrored attitudes towards their place within their own families - something neither harry nor hermione can have with draco for obvious reasons. ron is one of many siblings and feels overlooked in the crowd; draco is an only child and feels overburdened by the visibility, especially once his father is sent to azkaban. they both conform to behaviours expected of them by family [they are both in the same hogwarts house as generations of their family, they share their families' political views etc.]. they are of the same social class and their families both have a reasonably similar level of political influence [despite what we're told about his insignificance, arthur weasley is known to everyone in the ministry and he's able to throw his weight around to influence policy even before the promotion he receives in half-blood prince], but their material circumstances are divergent. they both heavily resemble their fathers - to the extent that they are immediately recognisable as each man's son - and spend their schooldays defending family honour by playing out lucius and arthur's own petty feud [lucius and arthur - and, indeed, narcissa and molly - are also narrative mirrors, and we deserve many more enemies-to-lovers fics featuring them]. and the course their lives take during the war is dictated as much by their role within their families as it is by their relationship with harry - the scrambling post-dumbledore order operating out of the burrow is a mirror image of the ascendant voldemort operating out of malfoy manor.

they are also obviously defined by their mirrored relationship with harry - most interestingly by a major similarity in their attitude towards him: that both struggle with how jealous they are of harry.

this leads to lots of excellent tension which just isn't possible in drarry or dramione. how do both sets of parents react to the news their sons are in love? how do ron and draco's relationships with harry change as they find each other? how does draco cope with the hustle and bustle of life at the burrow? how does ron deal with having to have dinner at the manor [particularly interesting because the world in which draco lives is one that's familiar to him - he's not going to be shocked by any of the weird stuff in that house, he knows how it all works, so he can ruin christmas by deciding to have his dad arrest lucius for fun instead]?

it's messy, and fun, and it sustains me.

and some recs for the lads?

collateral damage by @danpuff-ao3, which starts out with both of the lads working out their... issues with harry and ends with declarations of going to lunch with each other's mothers.

dance the night away (aka it's true love, you bastards) by evandar, which has as its premise ron and draco ending up, largely by accident, going to the yule ball together.

this great stage of fools by @nanneramma, which correctly demonstrates how ron is charming enough that him being supremely annoying is actually loveable.

[ae-neon]

I have a theory about the discourse. Not any specific discourse but about the canon-obsessed side and how they react to things.

When you're happy with canon and you come to participate in online fandom, there's not much to talk about. There's only so many times you can come online and look at fanart or post a quote you like before you get bored. If you're happy with the way it is, you have nothing to add. Look at Star Wars or Harry Potter, they're passionate about the world and want to get into the details and theorize, expand... they're not being negative (well sometimes they are) but they're also not in canon's clutches. That creativity, when you have something to add to the canon as a fan, determines your participation in fandom. That's what separates fandom from a casual fan, who is happy to put down the book at the end and move onto the next one.

And since ACOTAR is a book fandom, it's not like there are gif makers or other neutral, canon compliant activities to occupy your time, especially if you refuse to learn art or start writing fic.

So what do they do? Get online and start drama. Go after people who have any criticism about media they like, or even go after the people who are making their own, positive content (and aren't posting criticism) simply because it isn't canon compliant or they don't like it. That's how you get people calling all Tamlin stans "antis" even if they don't post anti content. And on that topic, it's not even enough for something to be canon-compliant, it also needs to be canon-compliant in the right way. You have to like x characters and dislike y characters and if you do draw/write fic about something based in canon it needs to be portrayed with the same narrative that exists in canon. So no positive Tamlin content allowed, even if there were positive moments of him in canon. Everything Nesta did is wrong because SJM said it's wrong. And if you disagree you misread the books. It's even in the ship war! The only explanation for that much animosity over three ships that are that boring is that they're all obsessed with canon/what will be canon. Every side of the ship war refuses to entertain the idea of simply shipping something because they like it, that's why they're on here three years after ACOSF still arguing over whether or not Elain looks good in black.

TL;DR canon obsessed people have zero creativity and the only thing they have to contribute to fandom is being a self appointed cop

I think you're absolutely correct, the three sides ship war being rooted in who is right rather than what they like really hits

The funny thing is that canon is so threadbare it adds to the sense of it being almost impossible to write non-canon without doing so much more work

Like the Archeron parents and the KoH don't even have names and across her courts there are no language groups to signify a general trend for naming conventions, geographically we know as much about the continent as Prythian etc etc. but we know Velaris, the CoN and Illyria, and the IC all have juuuuust enough background and fridged associations to play with so that's the safezone

Canon even has a perfect built in oc placement for IC fans in the completely empty space that is Rhysand's sister

And the threat of harassment as well as the weird puritan standards breeds this hyper sanitized facade where "non-canon in the right way" fans and antis alike are, funnily enough, all forced to tread lightly and stick to similarly approved non-canon content

The Nyxlin backlash is proof enough of that. A sudden wave of disingenuous moral grandstanding when the creators went out of their way to make it clear the acceptable parameters for content submission fell well within general and platform specific guidelines. And no one was being forced to participate or view content anyways

Like I mentioned in the post about people threatening to "redeem" Tomas Mandray, I have no interest in policing fandom (but I guess they see criticism of canon as exactly that) and if I didn't want to see that content I would simply scroll away or rant about it on my own blog if it really got to me. It would never cross my mind to harass a real person over a fictional character, especially anything as half-baked as an sjm character

But again, just like you said, a lot the fandom genuinely has nothing to do besides reblogging art and purity checking

My biggest gripe is the sense of authority it gives to SJM, we are almost forced to play along according to her rules when they don't just depict but validate racism, misogyny, homophobia, ableism, segregation and a general neo-liberal colonial mindset - a Zionist salad of fuckery

[eliotlime]

End of October Update

There's got to be a less clunky way for me to title these things but maybe I'll figure it out after a few posts.

Anyway at the top of the order I want to say that uh... the Abacelsus zine is not happening by halloween unforch.. I just started school part-time and it being part-time is still kicking my ass! So tentative release date will be on 11th November unless something else happens....

On the plus side I'm done with the cover so all that's left is the back page and cramming all 24 pages full of drawings 👍

-> As I've said at the end of my previous post I want to make more blog style posts so here's me trying to do that, more under the cut

���Abacelsus Zine

I'm still deciding on whether i want to print it A5 or B5 but I'm leaning towards A5, though for the digital release it doesn't really matter lol

As mentioned, I'm done with the main cover so I just need to fill this entire thing with stuff, I said 24 pages but really the total page count is 30. I'm just not counting the cover and the blurb stuff.

I'm half taking a break with this at the risk of burning myself out and half paralysed with starting it. Plus I've kind of been more into Axl & I-no hilariously but I'll always love A.B.A. I think the lack of any real info really lends her well to interpretation which is always fun.

I've never really been one to engage in fandom so I'm probably going to be doing my own thing. That being said if anyone has any suggestions feel free to drop them in my strawpage or ask box :)

🥤 Strawpage & General Socials

The bugs make my pages so decorative, I gotta draw more bugstyle guys.

Speaking of strawpage, I made one of those! It was really fun, I have a short OC info tab with descriptions of some of my main guys. I'd love for you to check it out.

This kind of acts as my ask box for twitter since there's not one there and apparently it's basically my main social media site these days so I'm just mirroring my experience here over there too.

Hilarious timing considering that it's basically collapsing on itself once again, I'll probably still be on that damn site until it implodes but I also have a Bluesky account for those that care about it.

The sky follower bridge extension is really useful for bulk following people from twitter to bsky

I'd love to post there more but there's not a queue function and that's very important to me as someone who is not American and lazy to remember optimal timings.

Did you see? I also have a new pinned for this blog! Wanted to make a new one for a while now, always thought the old one was so freaking long. All the old info is still on my about and faq page though I don't know who actually looks at those.. a relic from years past..

☹ School

Sigh, like I mentioned earlier I'm doing school again! At my big age, but I'm having fun so far! It's part-time but it's still kicking my fucking ass! It's the main reason why I'm a little disoriented this month honestly.

Do you like it? I spent an entire Sunday making my class miro board look niceys and then proceeded to get nauseous from cybersickness afterwards LOL

I'm doing a UI/UX course and I have to say the funnest part about it is making personas, it's like making OCs. Don't particularly like writing though.. but also that's a lie considering the numerous amount of paragraphs in this blog post alone haha

🎁 Merch

I've also gotten confirmation that I'll be boothing again next year in Febuary! So I gotta start locking into making more stickers and general merch. I say this a lot but I do need to look into opening an online store because I just have tonnes of stickers and stuff lying around waiting till the next time I do a convention which is kind of a shame.

Oh, but I will say that if you are from Singapore and would like anything from my previous convention catalogue feel free to shoot me a DM on instagram and I can mail it to you locally, shipping's $2 SGD.

➰Closing Thoughts

All in all, been kind of busy this month with school and various loose threads from September but overall I think I'm doing better! I've also been cooking lately and truthfully that's my biggest achievement this month haha, been also getting really into canned fish. Yummy!

Oh and a last thing is that I've been itching to animate again so I'll end this post with a WIP of a gif I did last night/morning. I almost always never finish my animations but here's hoping this one actually makes it to the colouring stage haha

No prizes to anyone who can guess who these two because of course.

Thank you for reading! I know I can't expect everything to be done in a single month but I just wish I could do everything without getting tired or cybersick! If you'd like to support me, here's my ko-fi page and my itchi.io & gumroad as well.

If you have any questions or just generally want to talk to me, my DMs and askbox is always open! Any professional enquires can be sent towards my email as well: eliotlime@gmail.com

XOXO, Stay weird!

-Eliot :)

[evercelle]

reading your response to the ousai/saiou ask made me realise, I don't actually know if with the ship name order people mean the one who tops or the one who doms or takes charge in general?? i'm curious what you're thinking of with ousai (and do you maybe know how other people approach this topic?) thank you!!

i feel like i've been talking too much lately so i'll just, put this under a cut to explain more,

so: the order of names is significant in eastern (bl) fandom spaces; from left to right, it's (top/攻め)x(bottom/受け). it usually denotes positions for spicy content, but in not-spicy content can also denote a portrayal of the characters' attitudes towards the relationship (e.g. initiator/pursuer x receiver). because some creators/fans are very specific about their preferred portrayals (you'll see stuff like (ship)🔄❌ or 左右固定, 'left/right fixed positions' in bio), strictly labeling ship content is courteous because it allows other fans to find/avoid it as they wish.

as far as i've seen, in western fandom spaces people tend to pick whatever portmanteau of the characters' names sounds good to refer to the pairing in general, though i've definitely seen others who follow the same naming conventions ^ as above when referring to ships. if you're not sure what to call it if commenting it's probably safer to just use the same nomenclature OP uses.

(for me specifically, i more or less follow eastern bl naming scheme, which is why i answered the last ask about saiou/ousai that way... but i also tend to write or draw any ship i like as 🔄. i mentioned before that i tag everything to "saiouma" on tumblr for convenience's sake, but on twtr where there's substantially more overlap with eastern fans, i usually label my stuff as either  🏁🔎 or 🔎🏁 or even 🏁🔎🏁.)

[semperama]

I do want to say though that I don't think there was ever a time where fans in general knew to keep the fourth wall sacred. I mean, the majority of us do know and have always known that, sure, but as someone who's been in fandom a long time, I saw plenty of instances of fans bringing up shipping and even RPF to the actor's faces at conventions 10 or 20 years ago. There are always going to be people who don't understand boundaries, and it sucks, and they should be shamed for it, but it's not really new. Social media has increased access to celebrities, sure, but at least it's also easier to set boundaries there (blocking, muting, turning off comments, etc.) than it is in person.

[ckret2]

I've inferred you like billford and i was wondering if you like any other GF ships?

if they'd been 5-10 years older and if Gideon had already gone through his humbling and heel-face turn before they met, I actually think Mabel & Gideon would've worked out pretty well; but Gideon spoiled any odds of that. In an AU it could work out. Anyway one-sided Gideon/Mabel is still fun to me because permanently unrequited love is one of my fav tropes, so Gideon can just suffer and I'll have a great time, sorry Gideon

I don't think they should ultimately stay together but I think exploring the toxic fucked-up-ness of unnatural magically-enforced attraction between Robbie and Tambry would make for a fascinating psychological fic

I yearn to know more about the siren Ford once dated. I'm personally going not by the "sirens sing a sexy seductive song" interpretation because that's boring and in my heart of hearts I believe that Ford is immune to conventional physical sexiness. Rather I'm going with the the Odyssean "sirens promise you irresistible knowledge" interpretation. What was that relationship like, what did she promise Ford, it's very canon that the promise of greater knowledge is metaphorically his siren song, the thought that at one point it was also LITERALLY his siren song is so juicy

I think there should be a love triangle between Manly Dan, Tyler Cutebiker, and Ghost-Eyes; Dan wins out though, Ghost-Eyes has that bad boy appeal but Tyler's got history with Dan, I think they've been silently making eyes at each other for years without making a move

the Hide-Behind is secretly in love with the Summerween Trickster

I believe with all my heart that Bill has the biggest stupidest crush on Quentin Trembley

we all know it's basically canon Bill has a thing for Wendy's mom, right

and furthermore if Bill ever met Mr. What's-His-Face I believe they would hit it off to an insane degree

I accidentally talked myself into realizing that Stan and Bud work REALLY WELL together

and of the other, like, normal popular ships that anyone else in this fandom actually cares about, I think Soos & Melody are the only one I'm emotionally invested in. I like them, I wanna see them happy.

Most of these I don't actively pursue fanworks for. ... Most of them don't have fanworks TO pursue.

[buddiebeginz]

The bt fandom is absolutely having a melt down of scary proportions

They had and posted a 4 hour Oliver stark Lashing video meeting just absolutely saying the most disgusting and horrible things about him because of last night and for not liking Lou

They are going through all of the pages Ryan follows on Instagram and looking for any post they can say is problematic and saying Ryan personally thinks and believes it and is responsible for them just because he follows the page.

They have been dragging Kenny’s name over some Paris convention that removed Lou’s name from a poll after learning about the issues he’s caused. And dragging Ryan into it even though the entire convention had nothing to do with 911. It was about swat.

I wouldn’t be surprised if Aisha is their next target at this rate.

I wish I could say I'm surprised by any of this but I'm not. I honestly think it's going to get worse with some of them once they realize B/T isn't going to be the big endgame ship they thought it was and even more so when they realize Buddie is happening.

I really think our fandom needs to try our best to distance ourselves from them. I'm talking about the more fanatical abusive people in their fandom. We really need to stop engaging with them. It just makes our fandom look bad and they're not worth the effort. They want to be pissed off because they saw Buck kiss a guy twice and think that meant they were soulmates let them but don't fall for the bait when they say something offensive online. I've been really guilty of that myself even making posts with their content trying to show how bad they've been but it's only been giving them attention so I'm trying to refocus on what matters.

I genuinely feel like this is going to be the season Buddie goes canon. I mean I don't know for certain 100% (I don't work for the show) but everything seems to be lining up that way. It's a really exciting time for our fandom and our ship and the show and we all should be focused on that and not some ship that won't even matter all that much soon.

---

Oh also about Ryan.

Putting this under the cut cause it got long.

The B*mmy's can say whatever the want about him but what happened was his ex fiance used the n word in some old tweets. When they were brought up and she was called out (after Ryan was on 911) he tried to defend her. But later issued multiple apologies :

At the time Oliver and Aisha were clearly upset about this because both of them put out tweets and there's other stuff that was going on behind the scenes to indicate Ryan had a falling out with them. But he's clearly worked to repair the damage because since then he's been a guest at Aisha's wedding and has spent a lot of time with the cast outside of work.

As for him being anti-vaxx or Republican, as those are other things the B*mmy's try to claim about him, I'm not even sure where they get some of that from. I think one of it was because he shared something about Covid from Joe Rogan (during Covid) but a lot of people were scared and confused during that time and there was tons of misinformation going around. The idea that celebrities are immune to that just because they're rich and famous is just ignorant. Also show me where he's shared other vaccine and or health related misinformation because sharing one thing during a really confusing time doesn't make him an antivaxxer.

Also during Covid no one could film on the show without getting vaccinated (this is why Rockmond Dunbar was fired he refused). And since Ryan was a big part of s3 and s4 he clearly was vaccinated. If Ryan was as staunchly antivaxx as B*mmy's make him out to be he would have left the show before getting vaccinated. He's a more well known actor than Rockmond he could have found work elsewhere.

They try to use accounts he's following on insta as proof he's far right but I haven't seen any that are blatantly far right. We also don't know when he started following these accounts or who followed them. His ex could have used his account to follow people when they were still together. I'm also following a ton of accounts on my insta that I don't even remember or interact with anymore this could be the case for Ryan since to my knowledge they haven't found likes by him just that he's following.

One of the accounts in particular they're using as a gotcha for Ryan is this one:

Ryan is following them but I haven't seen any posts of theirs he's liked. It looks like an account about home schooling and living off the land but they do have at least one transphobic post I've seen (about pronouns). Here's the thing though immediately when you look at the front page of their account they aren't marketing themselves as anti lgbtq. Ryan is not responsible for what they're posting. And given all of their other content he likely started following them for one reason and didn't know about their more transphobic views. It's also unrealistic to assume that a busy actor is on social media 24/7 monitoring every single thing that the accounts they follow are posting. If that was an obvious alt-right anti trans account I could understand but it's just not the gotcha B*mmy's are trying to make it out to be.

I'm not excusing that account or their transphobia btw. And I don't think anyone should be following them just that there is nuance to a conversation like this. B/T stans try to say Ryan following this account is the same as Lou having posted an obvious racist post about Nicki Minaj's skin color is the same thing. It's not.

It's pretty hypocritical of them to say we should excuse Lou's old insta posts but yet we're going to hate on Ryan for accounts he's following but isn't even interacting with.

And again I don't know where B/T stans are getting that Ryan is a Republican. He's repeatedly posted anti Trump stuff:

This is from 2016 ☝️and it's because Trump has repeatedly talked about deporting Mexican people.

And like everyone has the right to see feel however they want about what Ryan said in the past (especially bipoc people). But knowing that Ryan is no longer with his ex who I think wasn't the best influence in his life. Seeing him take accountability for what he said and did. Seeing the cast forgive him. That's all enough for me to continue to be a fan of his.

B*mmy stans don't have to like him but they don't get to keep attacking him for stuff he's done in the past. Lou on the other hand has never apologized for his insta stuff even when called out about them. You'll also never get me to believe he was hacked when he responded with that spitting on blind children thing on twitter. Plus him minimizing T*mmy's racism and homophobia down to teasing.

If Ryan was still doing messed up stuff I'd call him out too and expect others to do the same. The problem with B/T stans is no matter what Lou does they'll defend him. It's part of why they attack Ryan. They want to get the attention off of Lou. But they can't sit there and say how dare you defend a racist and then defend every single thing Lou did even just this year.

Sorry this got so long anon. I've just been seeing people (one account in particular) attacking Ryan on twitter recently and I'm so over it. If you made it down this far I love you forever. ❤️

[flower-boi16]

Lily Orchard's Takes on "Racism" in The Owl House Are Garbage and Here's Why

Hello. You may know me as the guy who made two whole posts debunking Lily Orchard's takes on Hunter. Although those posts are not perfect and I do think there are some things I could add or change about them, they still hold up as I still stand by every single point I made in them.

But to say that Lily's bad Owl House takes end with Hunter would be a lie. There is this particular narrative about both TOH fandom and the show itself that she tries to paint that really pisses me off, that being the whole "Racism" narrative. I talked about it briefly in my second Hunter post but this narrative has so much objectively wrong with it that it's best to make a whole post refuting it. Here I'm going to go over Lily's takes on three characters that she primarily uses to push this whole racism narrative; Amity, Hunter, and Luz. Without further ado, let's begin...

NOTE: This post is LONG. Like, very very very very long. Its the longest post I've ever made and the longest essay I have ever posted on the internet. If you don't want to read all of that then just skip to section 7 where I have a TLDR for those who don't want to read an 8375-word long post that takes at least almost a full hour to read. So...ya, let's begin.

1. Lily Orchard's Takes on Amity are Garbage and Here's Why

I'll be covering Lily's Video "An Incoherent Discussion About Main Characters" mainly TOH segment as its the video where she talks the most about Amity. This is where the problems with Lily's narrative begin, that being; Lily saying that white characters are popular because of white favoritism rather than the fact that they are actually well written characters.

Oh, you thought Hunter was the only character Lily accused people of being racist for liking, ya, no. In the beginning of the TOH segment, Lily tries to argue that there's no reason for the fandom to love Amity so much because she (supposedly) has little depth as a character....

"At this point, Amity had no depth outside of being the bully, It's only until a month later that that would change. But the fandom latched onto Amity the moment she was introduced and hyped her up incessantly. with only a few clips where her ego is bruised and nothing else. And the thing is, Amity had nothing to her at this point. It's a common complaint from people that the fandom reduces Amity these days to just gay panic and shipping, but as of season 2, that is what she is, love interest, abusive parents, and that's it"

"Amity is a one-note character, and I don't say that as a bad thing characters fit the role that they were made for and there really isn't anything wrong with that. Amity is an obstacle for Luz to overcome and then her love interest and then occasionally gets a few moments of depth."

This is...objectively incorrect. Note I was not in the fandom at the time season 1 was airing (I only got into The Owl House when the show had already ended) however, Lily tries to act as if Amity is a character with little depth and that the fandom has no reason to like her so much. This is likely done so Lily can gaslight you into thinking she has a point so she can paint the TOH fandom as racist. Amity does go through character development throughout the show, as in season 1 she gradually becomes a better person and even makes amens with Willow after cutting her off during childhood.

She has a lot of moments of depth in episode Convention, Lost in Language, Understanding Willow, Escaping Expulsion, Eclipse Lake, and Reaching Out that develop her as a character. These aren't just "a few moments of depth". Amity is a developed character, the fandom has a reason to like her. And maybe people latched onto Amity because they liked the idea of an enemies-to-lovers romance?

Again, I wasn't in the fandom at the time, but Lily doesn't consider any of these reasons that people may like Amity so she could try and paint Amity as a 1-dimensional character when really people like Amity for being a well-developed character and Lily's arguments that she is one note are just objectively incorrect. She's a girl raised in a prestigious and high-class family who has to meet high expectations from her parents and bullies people she can't feel any weakness, and was forced to cut off her childhood best freind because she wasn't strong enough for them.

However, throughout season 1 she becomes a better person thanks to Luz, makes amens with Willow and stands up to her abusive mom in Season 2, and in Season 2 Amity still has episodes developing her with conflict with her parents, she's not just Luz's girlfriend. This is a well-developed and three-dimensional character here, and there's a reason why Amity is a fan favorite in the fandom. But Lily ignores all of that depth and character development in favor of painting Amity as one-dimensional so her racism narrative could look like it holds more water than it actually does.

And for the "abusive parents" stuff Lily says this:

"Amity's relationship to her parents and her perfectionism only ever come out in the third act of any other episode with the exception of Escaping Expulsion and Eclipse Lake. Amity's abusive home life is a plot device more than anything else, something another character pulls on to get the story going, and the solution is almost always insultingly easy, and she's only ever brought into an episode because Luz drags her into it"

Once again...this is objectively incorrect. Amity still has a lot of episodes exploring her character as I already stated so the first sentance is already false. But then Lily says that Amity's abusive home life is a...plot device? Um, no? Its not a plot device, its an aspect of Amity's character that the show is dedicating episodes to exploring. And "the solution is almost always insultingly easy"??? What do you mean by "the solution is almost always insultingly easy"?? Lily doesn't give any examples here, she just says something critical and you're supposed to just accept that.

And now...we get the moment you've all been waiting for:

"So why do people get upset at the idea that Amity is just reduced to love interest when that is literally her role in the plot? Well, (and if this gets posted on The Owl House subreddit then uhh please cover your ears you delicate little flower children) white favortism"

And now we have Lily trying to paint the TOH fandom as racist for liking Amity.

"It's been a common refrain for a while that the show has a white and the fandom makes it worse. Amity was the first instance of that"

Ok so 1. The show doesn't have a "white favoritism" problem, this is something I'll get into more later but the reason why Amity gets focus is because she objectively has more importance than to the plot thank Willow and Gusm being Luz's love interest. And I already talked about the real reasons the fandom likes Amity that don't have anything to do with racism.

"When she first appeared in I Was A Teenage Abomination, the fan base instantly started hyping her up as the greatest thing since Eda the owl lady. They immediantly projected every fucking thing on the sun onto her, and Lumity was birthed from this"

What if people just again, like the idea of an enemies-to-lovers romance between her and Luz? And I don't think I've seen ANY ONE project things onto Amity, again there are clear reasons to like these characters. Then Lily says this:

"That was all it took. It's by sheer fucking luck that Dana was going in this direction with them anyway because there was zero basis for any of this. Amity was a minor antagonist at best, and Willow was the main spotlight of I was a Teenage Abomination"

"Zero basis for any of this"? Again, Lily is acting as if there aren't any reasons to like Amity when as I already explained there clearly is. And if she means no basis for Lumity then...Lily, Lumity was clearly being set up a lot throughout the first season. Its not exactly hard to see that.

"There's no reason for people to go absolutely this crazy over her when Willow was right there. Hell throughout season 1 Willow had more grounds for a romantic relationship then Amity did. But Willow was chubby and Korean and Amity was not and not"

I don't know about you but I'm pretty sure a lot of reasons for people liking Amity more than Willow is because they find Willow and Gus to be less developed than Amity, which is a perfectly fine opinion to have. Once Again Lily ignores reasons people may prefer Amity over Willow in favor of just jumping straight to racism instead. And there also isn't as much of a hyper-fixation on Amity as Lily says there is, yes she's a fan favorite character but characters like Luz are still very popular.

The rest of the segment really is not worth talking about. Basically after this point Lily just keeps on trying to reinforce her objectively wrong narrative of "Amity is liked because of white favoritism", her saying that she thought Eda was the main character instead of Luz, and she also talks about Luz and Hunter here but that'll be covered in their respective sections.

So Lily's whole narrative about Amity being liked because of "white favoritism" is wrong, there are real reasons that people like Amity, Lily simply chooses to ignore that because that would break her narrative. Now that we have that out of the way, let's talk about the next character Lily uses to push this whole racism narrative (and the most obvious).

2. Lily Orchard's Takes on Hunter are Garbage and Here's Why - PART III (...kind of)

Again, I've already made two whole posts debunking Lily Orchard's critiques of Hunter so go read those if you want the full analysis on why Lily's takes on this character are completely wrong, but in the second section of Part II I talked about Lily's whole narrative about Hunter's fans that she tries to paint, that they are racist and only like Hunter for being white. She does basically the same thing she did for Amity; ignore the reasons why people may like a character in favor of painting the fandom as racist, and she also tries to act as if Hunter is only liked because people push headcanon's onto him. I'll just paste this piece of text here since I already refuted it in my second Hunter post;

"In her video talking about Hunter, Lily says that the fandom only likes Hunter in spite of how he's written, which is basically her saying "if you like this character you actually don't like him...or your just racist". Ok so, I don't want to talk about this that much here, however, it's worth noting that Lily constantly calls people who like Hunter racist purely for liking a character she doesn't that also happens to white, which is a major yikes, as there are reasons that Hunter is well-liked in the fandom beyond his race. But Lily's response to that is "If you like Hunter you only like him because you push fanon ideas onto him when he's really a shallow poorly-written character".

Let me tell you why people like Hunter; he's a boy who was indoctrinated and raised his whole life into believing he was doing the right thing and that Belos loves him, and for his whole life he was had to prove his worth to the EC or he's just worthless, and a lot of people also see Hunter's arc as him realizing he was being abused. None of this is stuff that the fandom is making up, these are literally things that are communicated in the show itself, Lily is just choosing to ignore that just so she can paint this narrative that TOH fandom is a bunch of racists because they like Hunter, completely ignoring how people can have different tastes and opinions than each other. Oh ya, and someone did point this out to Lily once in a tumblr ask...Lily responded by saying "no" and then went on another rant about how the fandom is racist for liking Hunter and sidelines Gus and Willow, and says that if Hunter was black, people would ignore him like they do with Gus and Willow...that speaks for itself. I could not find a screenshot where Lily said this, but I do know that she did say that in response to an anon poking a hole into her narrative, which just shows how she reacts to criticism."

Like with Amity, Lily constantly acts as if there aren't any reasons for people to like Hunter, and the reasons people do have are just things that people make up through headcanons, when this is objectievely false. There are clear reasons for people to like Hunter, but Lily ignores that in favor of painting this narrative that Hunter fans are racist. She even calls than misogynistic and homophobic in her video on Hunter without showing any evidence of that. And NONE of the anons she showed say anything like Lily described.

She keeps on reinforcing the narrative that Hunter fans only like him in spite of how he's written rather than the idea that he is written well, which is objectively false because again, there are reasons to like Hunter as a character, and all of Lily's takes on him are just objectively wrong. This is just Lily treating her opinions like they are facts in a very narcissistic and smug way.

But again, I've already refuted this point so let's get into the other point about Hunter that Lily tries to use to push this whole racism narrative; that being that Hunter overshadows and sidelines the non-white characters and gets too much screen time.

"Season 2 only made this worse with the introduction of Hunter, who as a character has an effect on the fanbase comparable to Audo and Ren. Overshadowing every other character and causing white girls to squee about how much of a good boy he is, even though he definitely isn't one"

I already talked about how Hunter doesn't take up as much screen time as Lily likes to think he does in my first Hunter post, but I'll just put some comments that I got from my first Hunter post as they debunk Lily's whole take her pretty well:

"Hunter having dynamics with the rest of the cast is a good thing and while him, it’s not being “stapled” into them, he’s just interacting with them in a fucking episode. He parallels all of the main four teens in some way so it makes sense. Plus, he’s only in half or less of the season 2 episodes and wasn’t in season 1, he didn’t get the luxury of low-stakes filler episodes so he kind of has to make a mark during the episodes he’s in. Which is why he’s usually the focus or at least major in them, that’s understandable and he’s compelling enough to justify it."

"I'll never understand the criticism of a character taking screentime away from others, if this character is considered by the writers to be more important than others, then they have to feel like they really do matter, that's normal."

The reason why Hunter gets a lot of focus isn't because of racism, its because he's an important character and he doesn't even appear in that many episodes so he kinda of needs to make a mark in the ones that he's in, especially in season 2B where the show got cut short so the show needed to try and dedicate as much of its time to developing the character it just introduced in the first half of the season as much as it can while still developing the other characters and progressing the plot.

Also, here's a fun fact; as two comments on my second Hunter post pointed out, Hunter is a character that can ONLY work if he's white, because he is a clone of a 1600s witch Hunter. Just a little tid-bit I thought I'd mention.

Hunter doesn't sideline characters as much as Lily likes to think he does, in Hunting Palisman, Hollow Mind and Thanks to Them he gets paired up with Luz, the main character who is also a black girl who gets an equal amount of screen time with Hunter. This is an extension of the whole "Hunter is stapled onto other characters" criticism Lily has, where she complains about...Hunter being paired up and interacting with other characters. Again, I already covered this stuff in my two Hunter posts, but Lily's whole problem here is simply that Hunter is in an episode, regardless of the reason.

And we all know that Lily is entirely biased to hate Hunter purely for being an "angsty white boy" so I think I'm done here. Again, go check out my two Hunter posts if you want to see go more in-depth on this whole "Hunter takes up too much screen time" criticism.

But in short; Hunter does not take up as much screen time as Lily says he does, and the reason the show focuses on him is that he has more importance to the plot than Willow and Gus, and because he needs to make a mark in each episode he's in, and once again there are reasons for people to like Hunter that are not related to "white favoritism". Again, go check out my posts on Lily's critiques on Hunter if you want me to go more in-depth. But now, let's get into the final character that Lily tries to use to push this whole narrative, and that is...

3. Lily Orchard's Takes on Luz's are Garbage and Here's Why (short version)

Let me just say, Lily's takes on Luz, specifically her trauma...are awful. They are almost as bad as her takes on Hunter, and I'm actually planning on making a whole post refuting Lily's critiques of Luz like I did with Hunter, but for now, let's just talk about the whole narrative she tries to paint with how Luz's trauma is received; this time I'll be covering the Luz segment of her fandom torture video.

But lets cover the Luz part of the Discussion of Main Characters video first before get into that. Don't worry, this will be quick. Here Lily constantly tries to argue that people want to ignore Luz in favor of Amity and Hunter but they can't because she is the main character

"But the thing is, while Amity and Hunter caused Willow and Gus to be completely sidlined, (and even their episodes in season 2 have generally just been them playing second fiddle to one of those two) neither of them have managed to sideline Luz. Amity's entire role in the story is to be a supporting character to Luz everything she does is to help and further Luz's goals and Hunter is an antagonistic force in Luz's story, trying to stop her efforts because they interfere with the goals of emperor Belos."

"Amity is the supporting character and love interest, and Hunter is the villain. And I imagine that is something that probably sticks in the craw of the Amity-Hunter hype train, they fact that they can't just ignore Luz like they clearly want to because the characters they like come with Luz attached as a default."

Not only does Lily not give ANY evidence to support her narrative, she's also just... objectively wrong. Luz is a beloved character in the fandom, there's tons of videos about her that get a shit ton of views, there's a lot of fan art and fan works around Luz, etc etc. People who like Amity and Hunter probably also like Luz a lot too. Just look at the Luz Noceda Tumblr tag and you'll see that it has more followers than either of any of Hunter and Amity's tags do.

Lily does not give any evidence to support her whole narrative and acts as if the TOH fandom really wants to ignore Luz, but as I already said Luz is still a beloved and fan-favorite character within the fandom, its not exactly hard to see that. Just because people like Amity and Hunter doesn't mean they secretly dislike Luz or something, that's just stupid.

I could go on and on about this but you get my point; Lily's entire narrative that she tries to paint that People want to ignore Luz is just straight-up false and she does not support her claim with any evidence whatsoever.

But now, let's get into the real meat of things; the narrative that Lily tries to paint in her Fandom Torture video. Again, Lily's takes on Luz's trauma are just as awful as her takes on Hunter but I'll only focus on the racism narrative she tries to paint, that being that the fandom likes watching 14-year-old black girls suffer I'm not joking. This is the narrative that Lily actually tries to paint;

"But the truth is...ya fandom does love this shit. They love watching characters' angst forever. They love their three thousand-word slow-burn hurt with no comfort fix. They love watching characters suffer especially if they're women, and especially if they're black, and Luz is both."

.......Lily, fuck you. This is a lie, a straight-up lie. Lily is trying to trick you into thinking that the TOH fandom are sadistic monsters who enjoy watching 14-year-old girls who are also black suffer, and not only is that objectively incorrect, it's also just...so unbelievably gross given the real reasons why people like Luz's depression arc.

Do you want to know why this pisses me off so much? The actual reason why people like Luz's trauma arc isn't because they enjoy watching children suffer, its because aside from it being a realistic and believable depression arc, it also resonates with a lot of people. No joke, apparently there are a lot of people who relate to Luz and see themselves through her. Dana created a depression arc for a character that ACTUAL PEOPLE WITH TRUAMA AND SELF-LOATHING ISSUES CAN RELATE TO.

NOT TO MENTION the fact that a lot of people in the fan base actually sympathize with Luz her and her self-loathing issues. Luz's trauma arc is well-received because it was able to resonate with a lot of people, and the fact that Lily chooses to ignore that in favor of painting the TOH fandom as a bunch of racists who enjoy watching black women suffer is just...disgusting. Fuck you Lily, and I mean that very sincerely.

Oh wait, cuz I'm not done with this! Hunter, a character that has gone through just as much trauma as Luz, and whose trauma is also well received by the fandom as well, Lily just ignores. So its bad when Luz gets traumatized and people like it but when the same happens to Hunter it's ok? Oh wait, I forgot, Hunter is a white boy and Luz is a black girl, that's the difference.

Lily, I'm so fucking sick of your double standards. So its bad when a fandom likes a black girl getting traumatized but when it's a white boy you don't complain and don't go and call them racist? That's stupid.

You probably already get my point by now so I'll just end this section here; Lily's whole narrative of the TOH fandom liking Luz being traumatized because they are sadistic monsters who enjoy watching black girls suffer is both flawed and disgusting, so is her narrative about the fandom wanting to ignore Luz in favor of other characters which is also objectively incorrect. But wait, there is one last video of Lily trying to push this narrative that I have not mentioned yet...

... it's the white favoritism video mentioning Hunter

4. The White Favoritism Video is Garbage and Here's Why

So for this post I decided to go ahead and watch Lily's white favoritism video, specifically the Hunter segments. I went into this video with very low expectations, expecting it to just be Lily repeating the same points she already made over and over again. And...holy shit. This video is AWFUL. Like I knew it was going to be bad, but I was not ready for the amount of bullshit Lily was going to spew. I was left completely shocked and speechless by the end of the second segment at what Lily just said in those two segments.

Time for me to tear apart both of these awful segments. Let's start with the first one, and only 16 seconds in after reinforcing her whole "Hunter is only liked because of fandom shit" narrative, Lily already starts talking bullshit:

"Even his rebelling against an abuser in the canon is undercut by the fact that it's basically a preordained destiny because every golden guard has betrayed Belos."

WHAT????! Hunter would have never betrayed Belos in the first place in if the events of Hollow Mind had never happened, hell when Luz and Hunter saw the memories of Belos doing evil things Hunter constantly tried making excuses for Belos and spent most of it being in denial. And we don't even KNOW anything about the golden guards, maybe they could've eventually realized on their own that Belos was evil, that doesn't undercut Hunter breaking from his abuser!

Then Lily says this:

"Furthermore Hunter ended up being the vector for a lot of people to start caring about Willow, Daruis and Camila, insofar so they could be used to bolster Hunter's character with romance and adoption respectively before this point these characters were ignored or in some cases vilified"

I don't really know about Willow but for Darius and Camila this is just wrong, from what I've heard Camila starting getting popular once the episode Yesterday's Lie premiered, and the reason Darius was vilified before Any Sport in a Storm is because...in he was a villain in the show until this episode showed us he may not be. This isn't racism, Darius's last appearance before this has him as an antagonist, that's why he was "vilified" before Any Sport in a Storm. The rest of this segment is not worth talking about, its just Lily reinforcing her broken narrative about Hunter only being liked because of fandom stuff when that's literally not the reason why he's well-liked as I already explained so now let's move onto the second section...

....the second section is actually worse than the first one. The amount of bullshit Lily was speaking during that three minutes gave me a stroke. So Lily actually starts off by acknowledging the accusations she has been that she only hates Hunter for being white and would've liked him if he was black (which is an undisputed fact), since she constantly complains about him being a boring white boy. How does she respond to this? Does she try to refute this in some way?

....No. Instead, what Lily says next left my jaw wide open as I tried to process wtf I just heard. This is what Lily says:

"When I started criticizing Hunter it came around the time I became a lot more vocally invested in non-white characters and some people in a prime example of desperately trying to give me what they think is a taste of my own medicine came up to me and said with whole pussy "If Hunter was black, you'd like him" with a very simple truth, "If Hunter was black, you wouldn't" "

Holy shit. When I heard this I was at a loss of words. Do I even need to explain why this is awful? Not only is Lily once again accusing Hunter fans of being racist to further her narrative, not only does Lily not even TRY to refute the idea that she dislikes Hunter for being a white boy, but she also even says that if Hunter was black, people wouldn't have liked him...even though Luz, a black girl, is a beloved character in the fandom. Lily cannot gaslight me into thinking otherwise.

Lily then continues to push this idea that if Hunter was black, people wouldn't have liked him:

"If Hunter was black the fandom would not have ignored every skleazy thing he does, like his supposedly best episode according to fangirls that established Huntlow as a ship where...he uses the power the state to kidnap several children and force them to join the magic Gestapo. They would not view this action equally if dark-skinned and stop writing that well actually comment you will not convince me that they would. "

Hmm gee Lily I love how you ignore...

The fact that Hunter meant well and didn't know what he was doing was wrong as he thought that he was doing his friends a favor by getting them into the emperor's coven because of his indoctrination so thus he doesn't exactly know any better.

(And most importantly) The fact that Hunter realizes what he did was wrong and not only takes full responsibility of his actions but also goes out of his way to fix his mistake and get his friends out a situation he put them in AND risked his position as the golden guard AND ALSO was willing to take a lethal strike from Darius just so he could fix his mistake, something that is pretty selfless if you ask me (go check out this post if you want a more in-depth rebuttal to this bullshit claim. It's not directed towards Lily but it basically addresses Lily's whole statement)

Ya Lily I love how like all Hunter critics you just completely ignore that. Now Lily is trying to push this whole "racism" narrative even further, not even trying to give a counter argument to the rebuttles Hunter fans give and just calls them racist by saying "If Hunter was black, you wouldn't be defending him". That's not a good counterargument Lily.

THEN LILY SAYS THIS:

"Furthermore the main issue with Hunter is that the story spends a lot of time with him but spends no time developing him outside of making goofy faces for the internet"

hiuodshuviusdhfiudhfiudshfiuhqweqweqwe HUH?!?! The show doesn't develop Hunter as a character?!?! WHAT ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT?!?! ARE WE WATCHING THE SAME SHOW!?!? Either Lily's is THAT illiterate of she's deliberately lying. The show DOES clearly spend time developing Hunter, especially in Eclipse Lake, and the very episode that Lily criticized earlier, Any Sport in a Storm where Hunter goes through development and learns to make connections with others and has real friends.

HE GOES THROUGH AN ENTIRE ARC OF BREAKING FROM HIS ABUSER!!!! And no Lily you are not going to gaslight me into thinking that was all just fanon, because its not, its literally communicated within the show, you're just fucking lying. Do I even need to refute this point anymore? Anyone who's watched the show would now this is completely false so lets just move on to the next thing Lily says:

"Making him black wouldn't fix these problems, it would exacerbate them, because now you have a black character you are doing nothing with yet proudly displaying you are doing nothing with him, and that's a problem because its now the third time you've done that"

Shows a picture of Gus and Skara

Ok, so...

The show is clearly doing things with Hunter, I already refuted this stuff in my two Hunter posts

Oh, I'm sorry Lily, didn't you say that Hunter being black would make him more interesting?

Skara is a MINOR CHARACTER that doesn't have any real importance to the plot, yet you want to show to focus on her just because she's black? What???

Also, remember the Skara thing for later btw.

"But all this distracts from the real problem, Hunter is only allowed to get away with being such a nothing burger of a character, despite taking up so much screen time because he's white and male. This is the only element of his character that people like and everything else is fanon that they made up. What little there is to his character is just ideas that were stolen from Luz and Amity and yet Hunter eclipses them both in popularity"

Do I need to explain why this point is garbage? This whole narrative that Lily tries to craft revolves around the idea that Hunter is flat and boring and has nothing to his character and nothing to him and isn't interesting and everything that people like about him is just fanon, and ANYBODY who watched the show would know that this is completely objectively wrong.

Lily, will you please stop trying to fucking gaslight people into agreeing with you? Hunter is an abused boy who was groomed and indoctrinated into believing he's doing the right thing and then breaks from his abuser and ends up finding real friends. This is not fanon, these are things being directly communicated within the show, you can not gaslight me into thinking otherwise Lily. The fact that Lily just straight up says that Hunter is only liked for being a white male reinforces the already broken narrative she has about Hunter fans. And once again Luz and Amity are still incredibly popular characters, I don't think I need to talk about this further. This point sucks, lets move onto the next thing Lily says:

"Ironically The Owl House goes to make Hunter a useless non-character because all of his acts of rebellion end up being underwritten by the fact that every golden guard has turned on Belos in the same way. So Hunter isn't even operating on his own accord its just gut instinct"

Lily, can you go five seconds in this video without saying something extremely stupid? Like I already said Hunter wouldn't have betrayed Belos if the events of Hollow Mind hadn't happened because he wouldn't have a reason to, he wasn't just going to wake up one day and say "I'm going to betray Belos for no reason at all!". Also, I'm sorry Lily, wasn't one of your complaints about Hollow Mind that Hunter was in denial for most of the episode??? HOW TF could you THEN turn around and say "Hunter's acts of rebellion were just gut instinct" like??? Hunter spent most of Hollow Mind IN DENIAL of the idea of Belos being evil, just because the other golden guards betrayed Belos doesn't mean its just "gut instinct", their genetic clones, not reincarnations.

And like I already said, we don't even KNOW anything about the golden guards, maybe they could've eventually realized on their own that Belos was evil, that doesn't undercut Hunter breaking from his abuser. Sigh let's just move on...

Now Lily's talking about Skara yaaaaaaaay

"Meanwhile if you like a character who isn't a white guy just because you vibe with them your expected to answer for it. Hunter stans can freely fawn over a character just because he's pasty and blonde as long as they invent pages upon pages of cope. But If I like a character just because their VA is cool and I vibe with their energy I'm expected to justify that like I'm in fucking court. I quite like Skara because her design is cool Kimberly Brooks is one of my favorite VA's and I like this little quasi-recovery arc she's got going on in the background. But butthurt Hunter stans angry about my criticism of the character and always throw that back in my face because those shallow surface-level traits of the character are things I call them out for focusing on"

So now Lily is addressing the whole Skara allegations except she didn't mention what people like me are accusing her of; liking Skara for being a black girl. Call it uncharitable, but Lily has constantly complained about Hunter being a "boring white guy" and explicitly stated that making him black would make him more interesting, and when asked how to fix Skara she basically said to make him a black girl, and since Skara (a black girl) is a character that Lily heavily hyper-fixates on AND straight up replaced Hunter's name with in the season 2 round up video AND since IN THIS VERY VIDEO Lily complains about Skara not getting enough focus despite the fact the show has no reason to focus on her because she's a side character with little importance to the plot, Lily has not beaten the allegations that she hates Hunter for being a white guy and likes Skara for being a black girl.

I'll admit in my second Hunter post I was a bit too uncharitable towards Lily since she has now at least given actual reasons for liking Skara, however Lily has still not beaten the accusations she's getting over liking Skara for being a black girl. There's so much evidence that points towards that and Lily hasn't refuted it at all. Also remember when Lily complained about Skara being another black character who the show did "nothing with"? Well, now she says this:

"This ignores the fact that Skara is a tertiary character and is therefore allowed to be mostly surface level. Hunter is a main character with the exact same level of depth as a background character."

So you admit that Skara is a tertiary character and thus doesn't have much importance yet earlier you complain about the show not focusing on her more??? What????

"You can argue that this is because the show was canceled but when you spend eight episodes doing nothing to progress a character the problem isn't that didn't have enough time"

I'm sorry EIGHT?! Hunter's arc throughout season 2 spans over the course of five episodes, not eight. And once again Hunter isn't doing nothing here the show is developing him as a character every time he appears, but again I already refuted this in my first Hunter post.

After this point, Lily stops talking about Hunter and goes on about how female and non-white characters are nit-picked and people act like you the weird one for not caring about their nitpicks and continues reinforcing her already broken narrative...and also makes a star wars comparison, so the rest of this segment isn't really worth talking about because it's based on points and arguments that I've already refuted. Besides this section is getting long enough already so I'll just end it here.

Good GOD that video was awful. Like, I already had low-expectations going into it expecting to just be Lily repeating the same shit over and over again...and it was, but it was also Lily making some of the WORST critiques of this show I have ever seen. Lily, how do your takes on Hunter STILL suck? The whole narrative Lily tries to build is based on points that anyone who watched the show and payed even a little bit of attention to it would know is completely objectively false.

Literally every single thing Lily says here has something wrong with it, I was NOT ready for the bullshit this video contained...

But ya, you probably get the gist now; this video is awful, and I've now gone through every single point Lily has made about racism in The Owl House and refuted each of them...

...But I'm still not done. Because there is a certain trend I've been noticing throughout these three videos, especially the first and third one...

5. Gaslighting

These next few sections are probably going to be a lot shorter since this abomination of a post has gone on for long enough already, so sections 5-7 will hopefully be quicker. Anyways, a common tactic I've seen Lily use during these videos is gaslighting. This is a manipulative tactic that she uses to try and make it sound like she has a point but when you really look at it, she doesn't.

We can see this with her insisting that Hunter and Amity have no depth where she boils them down to simple character traits (or just straight-up lies) to make them sound shallow. She especially does this a lot with Hunter with the entire narrative of "Hunter is only well-liked because of fanon stuff" which anyone who watches the show would know is objectively wrong. Then there's the whole "spite-based enjoyment" she tries to paint with him, where Lily says that Hunter fans only like Hunter in spite of how he's written. And in her Hunter video she...says this:

"There are a lot of Reylos in Hunter's fan base who are obscenely racist misogynistic and homophobic. And I sure as fuck am not counting them In who I'm talking to today. Hunter is a magnet for fandom racism and misogony, but today I'm talking past those people to people with a very sincere love for the character. You don't love this character for how he's written. You love him in spite of how he's written. And you should be upset that his potential is routinely squandered in favor of just making more shots about him moping and sulking. You should expect better. Everyone would have BETTER if did not waste time on this character doing fucking NOTHING."

Typing that as I listened to Lily's video pissed me off. This narrative is entirely broken once you factor in how all of Lily's takes about Hunter are complete garbage, but even worse, Lily is trying to gaslight Hunter fans who are going to watch her video by saying "If you like this character, you actually don't like him cuz I said so"

Fuck right off Lily. There are real reasons for people to like Hunter that are not fanon things that are being made up, stop trying to gaslight Hunter fans into agreeing with ffs.

Lily also does this a lot with Amity too, insisting that she's just a one-note character with little to her and there is no reason for people to like her so much, when that is not true at all. There are actual reasons people have to like these characters that are NOT being made up unlike what Lily is trying to gaslight you into believing her. This is an incredibly manipulative and condescending way to frame your arguments, that if YOU like a character you actually don't and you should stop pretending that you do.

Fuck off Lily. The show DOES clearly use Hunter to his fullest potential, anyone who watches the show would know that, stop trying to gaslight people with your terrible arguments. Again, read my posts on Lily's takes on Hunter if you want the full context of why none of her takes on him are good, but needless to say Lily really likes to gaslight people into agreeing with her here and that is a VERY manipulative way to frame your arguments.

Oh wait, I'm still not done...because now its time to talk about...

6. "Dana has a white favoritism problem" & Lily's Hypocrisy

Yes, you read the title of this section correctly. In Lily's TOH season 2 round-up video, she says this:

"I know we're all being very charitable to Dana but I think we all need to address the elephant in the room is that The Owl House fandom has a big white favoritism problem and SO DOES DANA"

"Dana is not doing anything to help if anything she's actively making it worse and I feel somebody probably needs to probably sit her down about that and just be like "hey Dana, stop""

.......there is no other way to look at this. There is no other way to interpret this, Lily is accusing Dana of being racist. Now, complaining about a show focusing on white characters too much despite any other reasons a show may have for focusing on these characters beyond racism is one thing, but to accuse somebody of bigotry for focusing on two white characters, ignoring any reasons the show may have for focusing on them beyond racism is just...

I don't even know how to even say it, it's just gross. Once again, there are reasons why Dana chooses to focus on Amity and Hunter as I've already explained, but Lily ignores those reasons and just casually calls Dana racist. Oh, and I'm sorry Lily, but if Dana supposedly had a white favoritism problem, why tf would she make a black Latina girl the main protagonist??? And also develop st. black latina girl a lot throughout the series making her a three-dimensional and well-developed character that a lot of people love and relate to?

Lily ignores all possible reasons that Dana may have for focusing on Amity and Hunter just calls her racist. Wow, as I couldn't have hated you more Lily. Oh wait, but I'm not done with this section, no no.

Now I'm going to be discussing Lily Orchard's hilarious hypocrisy here. I find it incredibly funny how Lily constantly accuses the TOH fandom and Dana of racial bias when she literally hates a character (Hunter) for being a white male. And when she constantly fetishizes black people and explicitly stated once that Hunter would have been more interesting if he was black. I can guarantee you that if Amity and Hunter were black and Luz, Willow and Gus were all white, Lily wouldn't complain about them taking up too much screen time like she currently does, you can't convince me that she would.

Lily so desperately wants to convince us how racist the TOH fandom and Dana are yet she hates a character for his skin color and gender and constantly complains about him being a "boring white guy". This comment from my first Hunter post sums it up best:

"Lily really just desperately needs a character to channel unjustified negativity into so she can act better than the fans who like that character. She found reasons to hate Amity that way too in season 1. She gets obsessive about how the series "could be better" (i.e. the series should do the specific thing that SHE wants even if it's not the creator's vision) and when things don't turn out that way she gets... weird.

Like she shipped WilLuz and was butthurt that the fandom mainly saw Willow and Luz as just friends and recognized that Dana was emphasizing Amity crushing on Luz ... but Lily was like, "How dare they ship Lumity and not WilLuz! This is the racist fandom hating PoCs!!!" without self-awareness to see that no one was being racist but her for assuming that people only shipped a thing they liked because one character looks Caucasian.

She'd get on her high horse and accuse Dana of "white favoritism" for having Amity be important and making the fandom like her... like, the leaps and bounds Lily will go through to turn herself into "the most noble person" in a fandom is shameless. She also would rip on Amity for being derivative of Malfoy or the spoiled girl from Little Witch Academia... when that character trope is what Amity was subverting by showing that Amity had depth beyond her snobby/type-A first impression since after her first impression she almost immediately started to show layers to her character.

I feel like Lily only stopped being so negative to Amity because even she had qualms against crapping on Amity when a) she realized that complaining about Amity being a bully long after Amity had since stopped and atoned for that behavior was getting really old, and b) shitting on one half of Lumity when it was probably one of the biggest, most wholesome LGBT couples in modern animation would be a hard sell for Lily (who as an LGBT person should be less harsh on earnest representation from an LGBT creator).

Along comes Hunter and Lily can't exist without having a designated hate-sink so she projects all her dislikes into Hunter for merely existing. His design being light-skinned and handsome was enough to repel Lily. Him being a genuinely good person who had a troubled life but still perseveres to protect the relationships he's forged... he's pretty much a perfect addition to the cast that kind of adds a missing quality to the series (like how Toph in Avatar the Last Airbender was kind of the special spice that elevated the series for the better by being added to the cast). But ignore all the good his character brings because he's a caucasian-ish character who used to be tricked into being on the bad-side. I'm also sure Lily was furiously spewing venom when she saw that Willow was paired with Hunter, since Lily wanted Willow to be with Luz."

Lily, if you constantly accuse people of being racist for liking a character you don't and also accuse the creator of being racist as well, but solely hate a character for being a white male, then I'm sorry, but nobody here is being racist except for you. (I could also mention her star wars fic but this post is getting long enough so let's just end it here)

7. Conclusion

TLDR for those who don't want to read this entire post:

There are clear reasons why people may like Amity and Hunter that have nothing to do with racism at all

There are also clear reasons why the show may want to focus on these characters due to them being important to the story

Luz is a beloved fan-favorite character and Lily does not give any good evidence to suggest otherwise.

Lily's take that people like watching black women suffer and that's why Luz's truama arc is well-received is completely false as it is well-received due to being able to resonate with a lot of people.

The white favoritism video is fucking awful

A majority of Lily's arguments are just her trying to gaslight you into agreeing with her

Lily complains about the TOH fandom and Dana having racial biases when she is racially biased herself

Lily Orchard remains my most hated YouTuber. She's a shit critic and an even shittier person, and I sincerely hope that one day, Lily's entire channel gets terminated and wiped off the face of the internet, because people like her do not deserve a platform. She has not improved and I don't think she EVER will. Thanks for reading this entire post, and...bye.

[alexandraisyes]

Confession time? You know what sure.

This fandom terrifies me. I've only been watching for nearly a year now. (I joined just after bloodmoons return)

The only reason I found teams is because of old animations of people in the regular dca / sun/moon fandom.

People that have turned away from tsams because of the harassment. But those animations made me check out the show.

And I as grew to love it more and more. I wanted to make content I grew scared. Because I was in the regular dca fandom and do just ship sun/moon

I have at this point gotten over that and posted two fics for TSAMS, even made artworks for fics I liked. And kept posting regular dca sun/moon stuff as well.

And so far nothing bad has happend but I know that won't last and that terrifies me. I am a fandom oldy. I have been part of fandoms wich were deemed to be some of the worst.

But there i was never so scared of posting my first fic for a fandom. And that is sad ain't it.

But when I posted my first tsams stuff. At least I know what I signed up for and am fully prepared for it. I know were I stand and am hopefully expierenced enough to tell when people will just try and provoke me Into picking a side

i have no desires to do for every singel issue this fandom seems to have (for some i think it's people just finding a reason to put you in a box to hate. So why make it easy on them. If they wanna know where I stand the can read through my blog. I ain't hiding my feeling on things)

I have my block button ready if need be. But I hope not.

I've seen some wonderful things being made in this fandom. And I hope that is something that will continue. But I do wonder how many people there were like me. That are/were to scared to post their work just because of the things going on. But unlike me...didn't find the courage to do so.

Sorry this got long and rambly as I tend to do...I hope it made some sense. And my phone didn't make to many autocorrects my tired brain won't see until it's way to late XD.

-Noffy

Hi Noffy! (Idk who you are, names are hard as fuck, but hi anyways!)

I know a lot of people have those same anxieties. Both in and out of the active fandom. I have a few friends with alt accounts purely for TSAMS because they primarily ship Sun/Moon or other DCA/DCA that don't have anything to do with TSAMS. I know a huge part of the fandom is made up of minors (and just generally younger folks/Gen Z) that just don't understand how fandom works.

If I had a nickel for how many times I've seen people in this fandom complaining about "incest ships and jokes" (oftentimes for things that are just the general DCA Sun/Moon that have NOTHING to do with TSAMS) and the other fans had to tell them how to use the block button I would have half of my phone bill. Because it's constant.

Which is partially why I'm so goddamned insistent on challenging those ideas of what the fandom experience is "supposed to be" in this fandom. We're in a fandom where it is canonically acknowledged that there are dimensions where Sun/Moon exist, and people are still freaking out over non-TSAMS Sun/Moon art. Can anyone else see the irony? Or those who pick and choose what AUs are or are not acceptable. If SolarMoon/SolarNexus can be an acceptable ship in this fandom under the pretense that "They were never brothers" or "They realized that they didn't want to be brothers" then every other "taboo" ship should be on the same level of acceptable since we're not dealing with living, blood-related things, but rather animatronics who decide family based on word of mouth.

So the just general hypocrisy in this fandom is fucking ridiculous and is why I'm constantly pushing onto people "If you see something that you think is interesting and want to make an AU do it!" Make the AUs. This is the AU fandom (other than Undertale but I advise people from going there, that place is getting worse by the day). Make conventional and unconventional AUs. I literally have a fucking fanfiction series about TSAMS with "Unconventional" in the name. (And it's a hit btw). The more people who stop worrying about what other people would think and just have fun the more enjoyable and less hostile this fandom would be.

And I talk about this kind of thing a lot on my page because I think it's important. I think the general hypocrisy is stupid. I think that hiding in fear is stupid too, and pretending to dislike or like things you don't is dishonest. To both others and yourself.

I'm glad that you finally felt comfortable enough to upload fanworks for this fandom, and I'm sorry that it took a gathering of courage to do so. And I hope that eventually, the people who are overwhelmingly positive and sane about fan experiences can outweigh the people who are more worried about fictional morality or canon compliance. I've had to block several people in this fandom already, either for trying to police the fandom or for deliberately breaking my boundaries (squinting at the minors who came in my discord to talk about my nsfw fanworks).

I also got long and rambly (as I also tend to do) so I'll forgive you for your petulance (/light-hearted).

I'm not "of old fandom" but I don't think that anything you do in fandom for the sake of enjoying fandom can be comparable to a real-life crime. I grew up teaching myself the old fandom mentality and I never once fathomed people could harass others over fictional works for the obvious reason that it's fiction and it's not hurting anyone. And if you didn't enjoy the book why were you reading it? These are things that I understood at quite a young age since I was an avid reader of normative fiction (novels). And when people complained about a book to me that they read of their own volition I always would wonder why they kept reading if they didn't enjoy it, for the obvious answer is when you come across a book you don't like seem to be to put it away.

So when I joined Twitter at age 17 one can imagine my shock at the idea that people were getting harassment over things that they made for other people, because one wouldn't publicly harass an author of a published novel for writing something they find distasteful. I think if more people would just treat fanworks the same way they treat solid media that you can turn the pages of we would have severely fewer issues in fandom. Someone spent time making content for others to enjoy (for free) and if you don't find yourself in the group that content is for then you don't have to make it everyone else's issues. Put the metaphorical book back on the shelf and find something else to do.

Ask Game - Send Me Confessions