#i am not a linguist

[zoloftoxycodone]

Stop calling it "proto-punk"

I'd argue that the term "proto-punk" isn't accurate.

Proto is a prefix meaning "first" and I don't think that proto-punk is in itself a form of punk but a precursor to. We don't call post punk "eschatopunk"

Therefore I think we should be calling it "prepunk". This is because it sounds dirty.

[hidefdoritos]

You know how, when someone thanks you for doing extra work, often rather than saying "You're welcome!" (which feels like agreeing that they're an inconvenience) you say "No problem!" (because you don't want them to feel like they're a burden)?

Just found a spot in the book of Philippians 3:1 where Paul repeats an earlier exhortation to rejoice in the Lord. Then he says that writing the same thing again "grieueth mee not" (1599 Geneva Bible), or "to me indeed is not grievous" (KJV), or as the ESV puts it in 2016, "is no trouble to me."

So if you see someone whining about the death of the phrase "You're welcome," well, precursors to the phrase "No problem" have been around in English for at least 400 years.

[consult-sherlockholmes]

Any tips on the British accent?

In a week I’ll have to fake it for some personal purposes. And I need your help.

Which British accent are you exactly referring to, given all the different accents depending on the area in the UK. But I assume you mean the received pronunciation of southern England.

The best way to emulate another accent is to first observe. Watch videos of people talking with your desired accent, listen closely, but also look how they move their lips and shape the words and try to recreate that. Many vowels and consonants are also differently pronounced in comparison to American English, so it is best to research that a bit, and maybe go to Cambridge Dictionary's website, where you can listen to recordings of words in both American and British english. Also certain vocabulary is more common in British English than in American English, that is also important to note.

Personal purposes? Are you trying to fake being British to show off?

[artmctalon]

Did a bunch of orthographic doodles during my breaks at work, as I was working through ideas concerning language construction.

I have been fiddling with a couple conlangs for a while now, mostly for this worldbuilding project I've also been fiddling with on and off again, involving the Vita-Ra.

Right now I have a proto-language of roots that I want to develop into a language family, and this was me ideating on what sort of writing system the early language speakers might have invented. I figured that like the Oracle bone script, early forms of writing would be recognizable pictographic representations of existing things, which would over time evolve into a writing system with more abstract, simplified characters (like how the Phoenician abjad was influenced by more representational hieroglyphs in its evolution).

Still trying to figure out the visual aesthetic. Some of the designs, I find too off balance or messy. Also, I think a couple characters just look like I straight-up copied a Hanzi logogram (hell, the character for "Ko" might as well be the same thing as the Chinese character for "river").

Still, it's a work in progress. And there's still plenty of potential I can work with.

Probably gonna binge some Artifexian vids this week.

[exercise-of-trust]

i don't generally bother posting the stuff i knit exactly from existing patterns but i finally wove in the ends on a couple frankensteined socks and figured i might as well throw them up here? they're very dumb but i'm fond of them.

for the first pair i made up a colorwork pattern for the feanorian heraldic symbol, and slapped it together with the pisqu sock structure and toe pattern, and a snippet of a mitten for the sole halves. the yarn is 100g of jamieson's of shetland that i got on the high street of fort william, as a treat after walking 100 miles from glasgow to get there, and i had... maybe 10 yards total left over? i had to cut off the long tail from my cast-on and use it to graft the toe closed on the last sock; it was nerve-wracking. if i did this pattern again, i'd probably put the toe motif in between the two heraldic lozenges, but the first time through i wasn't sure how the math would work out so i frontloaded them. ah well!

the second pair is the structure of an existing sock i've forgotten the name of (worked in the round from the tip of the heel to a hat-like shape with six sides; two opposite ones are grafted together to form the instep and the other sets of two open into the cuff and close into the toe), with the colorwork pattern from the gogink sweater yoke. i thiiiink you could do this with basically any colorwork sweater yoke, but i've only tried it with this one. if i did it again i'd add some short rows to the front side of the cuff; the construction sort of pulls it down so that the heel side of the cuff is higher than the front, and a couple short row rounds would probably level it back out. i like these because they neatly smash the cuff-down/toe-up binary and make everybody mad, and i am at all times an imp of the perverse.

[awkwardturtletrash]

Im not an expert at all but Im opinionated. I did a research paper on the Gullah dialect of Creole languages for a syntax class. It is very much a ‘vibes’ based language due to their abstract use of such limited vocabulary. Some words have dozens and dozens of different meanings, tenses don’t matter, verbs and nouns are meaningless, and tone carries most of it.

It can still be researched, recorded, and has a historical path. It is a rigid, definable language to native speakers . It’s very much something that has to be told to understand, it’s very much against other language’s natural code of conduct. But it exists historically, proven despite its rejection of syntactic law.

Emojis and “chat” are neither of these things. They aren’t natural progressions of grammar, they’re humorous references. They’re jokes. Grammar isn’t just references that mean other things, it’s a system of communication through shared representation of concepts. It IS rigid because it fucking had to be. Otherwise there would be no point.

Gullah is extremely socially based and doesn’t make sense to those unfamiliar with what they’re taking about, it can come across as “vibes.” This is because it is shaped by colonialism, slavery, had time to develop, and location.

Memes and a quote from twitch are nothing grammatical. They’re not new forms of language. I understand you want your wasted time to be more important or mean something but maybe be more interesting than calling images pertaining to Seinfeld equal to ancient texts. Just a thought!

"chat is a pronoun" has officially joined my list of internet linguistics pet peeves. "emojis are hieroglyphs" is welcoming them to the club.

[poorly-drawn-mdzs]

hope you feel better soon!

I am riddled with ailments, but I stay silly!

[ryllen]

Fun fact for the day, that u may or may not already know,

[a-book-of-creatures]

Maybe they were confused by Andromeda, as opposed to Gynomeda?

andromeda

in an astronomical-astrological miscellany, bavaria, late 15th c.

source: Coburg, Landesbibl., Ms. 5, fol. 87r

[www-bestiemme]

I’m so unhappy with how Kim looks but I’ve spent 5 hours on this we move on, WHATEVER

[agarafile]

i've seen a lot of people say that the way to go for fanfics and fanart to express how pearl (and impulse and tango) could communicate with the robot talk should be sign language. and that is so great!! but auslan (australian sign language) is very different from asl. which would, unfortunaly, only contribute to the miscommunications

[lurkingteapot]

Every now and then I think about how subtitles (or dubs), and thus translation choices, shape our perception of the media we consume. It's so interesting. I'd wager anyone who speaks two (or more) languages knows the feeling of "yeah, that's what it literally translates to, but that's not what it means" or has answered a question like "how do you say _____ in (language)?" with "you don't, it's just … not a thing, we don't say that."

I've had my fair share of "[SHIP] are [married/soulmates/fated/FANCY TERM], it's text!" "[CHARACTER A] calls [CHARACTER B] [ENDEARMENT/NICKNAME], it's text!" and every time. Every time I'm just like. Do they though. Is it though. And a lot of the time, this means seeking out alternative translations, or translation meta from fluent or native speakers, or sometimes from language learners of the language the piece of media is originally in.

Why does it matter? Maybe it doesn't. To lots of people, it doesn't. People have different interests and priorities in fiction and the way they interact with it. It's great. It matters to me because back in the early 2000s, I had dial-up internet. Video or audio media that wasn't available through my local library very much wasn't available, but fanfiction was. So I started to read English language Gundam Wing fanfic before I ever had a chance to watch the show. When I did get around to watching Gundam Wing, it was the original Japanese dub. Some of the characters were almost unrecognisable to me, and first I doubted my Japanese language ability, then, after checking some bits with friends, I wondered why even my favourite writers, writers I knew to be consistent in other things, had made these characters seem so different … until I had the chance to watch the US-English dub a few years later. Going by that adaptation, the characterisation from all those stories suddenly made a lot more sense. And the thing is, that interpretation is also valid! They just took it a direction that was a larger leap for me to make.

Loose adaptations and very free translations have become less frequent since, or maybe my taste just hasn't led me their way, but the issue at the core is still a thing: Supernatural fandom got different nuances of endings for their show depending on the language they watched it in. CQL and MDZS fandom and the never-ending discussions about 知己 vs soulmate vs Other Options. A subset of VLD fans looking at a specific clip in all the different languages to see what was being said/implied in which dub, and how different translators interpreted the same English original line. The list is pretty much endless.

And that's … idk if it's fine, but it's what happens! A lot of the time, concepts -- expressed in language -- don't translate 1:1. The larger the cultural gap, the larger the gaps between the way concepts are expressed or understood also tend to be. Other times, there is a literal translation that works but isn't very idiomatic because there's a register mismatch or worse. And that's even before cultural assumptions come in. It's normal to have those. It's also important to remember that things like "thanks I hate it" as a sentiment of praise/affection, while the words translate literally quite easily, emphatically isn't easy to translate in the sense anglophone internet users the phrase.

Every translation is, at some level, a transformative work. Sometimes expressions or concepts or even single words simply don't have an exact equivalent in the target language and need to be interpreted at the translator's discretion, especially when going from a high-context/listener-responsible source language to a low-context/speaker-responsible target language (where high-context/listener responsible roughly means a large amount of contextual information can be omitted by the speaker because it's the listener's responsibility to infer it and ask for clarification if needed, and low-context/speaker-responsible roughly means a lot of information needs to be codified in speech, i.e. the speaker is responsible for providing sufficiently explicit context and will be blamed if it's lacking).

Is this a mouse or a rat? Guess based on context clues! High-context languages can and frequently do omit entire parts of speech that lower-context/speaker-responsible languages like English regard as essential, such as the grammatical subject of a sentence: the equivalent of "Go?" - "Go." does largely the same amount of heavy lifting as "is he/she/it/are you/they/we going?" - "yes, I am/he/she/it is/we/you/they are" in several listener-responsible languages, but tends to seem clumsy or incomplete in more speaker-responsible ones. This does NOT mean the listener-responsible language is clumsy. It's arguably more efficient! And reversely, saying "Are you going?" - "I am (going)" might seem unnecessarily convoluted and clumsy in a listener-responsible language. All depending on context.

This gets tricky both when the ambiguity of the missing subject of the sentence is clearly important (is speaker A asking "are you going" or "is she going"? wait until next chapter and find out!) AND when it's important that the translator assign an explicit subject in order for the sentence to make sense in the target language. For our example, depending on context, something like "are we all going?" - "yes" or "they going, too?" might work. Context!

As a consequence of this, sometimes, translation adds things – we gain things in translation, so to speak. Sometimes, it's because the target language needs the extra information (like the subject in the examples above), sometimes it's because the target language actually differentiates between mouse and rat even though the source language doesn't. However, because in most cases translators don't have access to the original authors, or even the original authors' agencies to ask for clarification (and in most cases wouldn't get paid for the time to put in this extra work even if they did), this kind of addition is almost always an interpretation. Sometimes made with a lot of certainty, sometimes it's more of a "fuck it, I've got to put something and hope it doesn't get proven wrong next episode/chapter/ten seasons down" (especially fun when you're working on a series that's in progress).

For the vast majority of cases, several translations are valid. Some may be more far-fetched than others, and there'll always be subjectivity to whether something was translated effectively, what "effectively" even means …

ANYWAY. I think my point is … how interesting, how cool is it that engaging with media in multiple languages will always yield multiple, often equally valid but just sliiiiightly different versions of that piece of media? And that I'd love more conversations about how, the second we (as folks who don't speak the material's original language) start picking the subtitle or dub wording apart for meta, we're basically working from a secondary source, and if we're doing due diligence, to which extent do we need to check there's nothing substantial being (literally) lost -- or added! -- in translation?

[embervoices]

Inasmuch as languages can exist without sound, of course they can exist without vowels.

Does that question change when we specify spoken language?

Not necessarily - there's quite a lot of sounds that can be made by vibrating something other than vocal chords, eh?

I admit to doubting a human natural vocal language will develop without vowels, for the reasons given in the OP - they're the first sounds humans tend to make, involuntarily, and thus ones we notice quickly as a species when sound is the mechanism for communication.

But that clearly doesn't mean, given a difference in parameters, it wouldn't in some other context.

Clearly they already do when we remove "vocal" or "natural" from the criteria, so why wouldn't removing "human" potentially change it, too?

So what would an alien sound-based language sound like if the sounds they could make most easily weren't what we recognise as vowels?

How many musical instruments do we have that could perhaps demonstrate the alternatives? Can we involve pitch without it being vowels?? Would only percussion ones count for this? Do drums make vowels??

Now I'm pondering... I'm not sure I know enough about the distinctions made in linguistics to follow the thread fully...

I know you said not to ask you about the hyoid bone post because you’re not an anatomist but I have a question relating to it that I think you’d be equipped to answer: Are vowels actually necessary for speech? Could a language exist without them?

i mean... in the most technical sense, i guess it could, but... why. vowels are foundational sounds - literally, they're the first sounds we figure out how to make before all the rest of the articulatory system gets involved as motor skills improve. and you'd be absolutely nerfing the number of possible distinct words, especially if you consider that vowels often carry suprasegmental information like tone and length that most consonants can't express.

[spocks-kaathyra]

thoughts about the Cardassian writing system

I've thinking about the Cardassian script as shown on screen and in beta canon and such and like. Is it just me or would it be very difficult to write by hand?? Like.

I traced some of this image for a recent drawing I did and like. The varying line thicknesses?? The little rectangular holes?? It's not at all intuitive to write by hand. Even if you imagine, like, a different writing implement—I suppose a chisel-tip pen would work better—it still seems like it wasn't meant to be handwritten. Which has a few possible explanations.

Like, maybe it's just a fancy font for computers, and handwritten text looks a little different. Times New Roman isn't very easily written by hand either, right? Maybe the line thickness differences are just decorative, and it's totally possible to convey the same orthographic information with the two line thicknesses of a chisel-tip pen, or with no variation in line thickness at all.

A more interesting explanation, though, and the one I thought of first, is that this writing system was never designed to be handwritten. This is a writing system developed in Cardassia's digital age. Maybe the original Cardassian script didn’t digitize well, so they invented a new one specifically for digital use? Like, when they invented coding, they realized that their writing system didn’t work very well for that purpose. I know next to nothing about coding, but I cannot imagine doing it using Chinese characters. So maybe they came up with a new writing system that worked well for that purpose, and when computer use became widespread, they stuck with it. 

Or maybe the script was invented for political reasons! Maybe Cardassia was already fairly technologically advanced when the Cardassian Union was formed, and, to reinforce a cohesive national identity, they developed a new standardized national writing system. Like, y'know, the First Emperor of Qin standardizing hanzi when he unified China, or that Korean king inventing hangul. Except that at this point in Cardassian history, all official records were digital and typing was a lot more common than handwriting, so the new script was designed to be typed and not written. Of course, this reform would be slower to reach the more rural parts of Cardassia, and even in a technologically advanced society, there are people who don't have access to that technology. But I imagine the government would be big on infrastructure and education, and would make sure all good Cardassian citizens become literate. And old regional scripts would stop being taught in schools and be phased out of digital use and all the kids would grow up learning the digital script.

Which is good for the totalitarian government! Imagine you can only write digitally. On computers. That the government can monitor. If you, like, write a physical letter and send it to someone, then it's possible for the contents to stay totally private. But if you send an email, it can be very easily intercepted. Especially if the government is controlling which computers can be manufactured and sold, and what software is in widespread use, etc. 

AND. Historical documents are now only readable for scholars. Remember that Korean king that invented hangul? Before him, Korea used to use Chinese characters too. And don't get me wrong, hangul is a genius writing system! It fits the Korean language so much better than Chinese characters did! It increased literacy at incredible rates! But by switching writing systems, they broke that historical link. The average literate Chinese person can read texts that are thousands of years old. The average literate Korean person can't. They'd have to specifically study that field, learn a whole new writing system. So with the new generation of Cardassian youths unable to read historical texts, it's much easier for the government to revise history. The primary source documents are in a script that most people can't read. You just trust the translation they teach you in school. In ASIT it's literally a crucial plot point that the Cardassian government revised history! Wouldn't it make it soooo much easier for them if only very few people can actually read the historical accounts of what happened.

I guess I am thinking of this like Chinese characters. Like, all the different Chinese "dialects" being written with hanzi, even though otherwise they could barely be considered the same language. And even non-Sinitic languages that historically adopted hanzi, like Japanese and Korean and Vietnamese. Which worked because hanzi is a logography—it encodes meaning, not sound, so the same word in different languages can be written the same. It didn’t work well! Nowadays, Japanese has made significant modifications and Korean has invented a new writing system entirely and Vietnamese has adapted a different foreign writing system, because while hanzi could write their languages, it didn’t do a very good job at it. But the Cardassian government probably cares more about assimilation and national unity than making things easier for speakers of minority languages. So, Cardassia used to have different cultures with different languages, like the Hebitians, and maybe instead of the Union forcing everyone to start speaking the same language, they just made everyone use the same writing system. Though that does seem less likely than them enforcing a standard language like the Federation does. Maybe they enforce a standard language, and invent the new writing system to increase literacy for people who are newly learning it.

And I can imagine it being a kind of purely digital language for some people? Like if you’re living on a colonized planet lightyears away from Cardassia Prime and you never have to speak Cardassian, but your computer’s interface is in Cardassian and if you go online then everyone there uses Cardassian. Like people irl who participate in the anglophone internet but don’t really use English in person because they don’t live in an anglophone country. Except if English were a logographic writing system that you could use to write your own language. And you can’t handwrite it, if for whatever reason you wanted to. Almost a similar idea to a liturgical language? Like, it’s only used in specific contexts and not really in daily life. In daily life you’d still speak your own language, and maybe even handwrite it when needed. I think old writing systems would survive even closer to the imperial core (does it make sense to call it that?), though the government would discourage it. I imagine there’d be a revival movement after the Fire, not only because of the cultural shift away from the old totalitarian Cardassia, but because people realize the importance of having a written communication system that doesn’t rely on everyone having a padd and electricity and wifi.

[frenchiepal]

17.12.24 🍞 🍪 sooo tired :') i'm really looking forward to the holidays, half of which i will probably spend sleeping. apart from that the workload has become a bit more bearable so yayy🍀

🎧- breath of life by florence + the machine