#i also think they’re very similar in terms of how they view romance and i think they could be v tragic and v sweet together

[waterdeepthroat]

i am having. Too Many gale thoughts

[lucky-clover-gazette]

prince's gambit highlights & annotations

chapter 14

indented text is from the book. some quotes have commentary, some do not. some comments are serious, and some are definitely not. most of them will only make sense to people who have read the series. and, like, there are spoilers. so please read the books first if you're interested!

also: part of the reason i'm doing such a close reading is to study cs pacat's style, especially in terms of how she does romance and erotica. there are "craft notes" that might seem weird, like i'm being redundant or restating something rather than analyzing, but those are more things that i want to remember/take away from the writing!

i'm going to tag these longer posts with "sam reads capri" in case anyone wants to read them all at once.

this is a google doc i wrote with overall content warnings for the captive prince series. it's not perfect, but i do think it's important to include.

No Laurent. All signs of recent occupancy had been a handspan away from his own body, suggesting a night spent in close but not transgressive proximity: some kind of self-preservation had apparently prevented Damen from rolling inward during the night; from throwing his arm over Laurent’s torso and drawing them together to make the small tent seem larger than it was. As a result, Damen was in possession of all his limbs, and even had his clothing restored to him. Thank you, Laurent.

The embroidery came later, in the retelling, as the story was told again and again by the men, taking on its own character as it passed over camp. The Prince had ridden out, with only one soldier. Deep in the mountains, he had chased down the rats responsible for these killings. Had ripped them out of their hiding holes and fought them, thirty to one, at least. Had brought them back thrashed, lashed and subdued. That was their Prince for you, a twisty, vicious fiend who you should never, ever cross, unless you wanted your gullet handed to you on a platter. Why, he once rode a horse to death just to beat Torveld of Patras to the mark.

like how this ironic misunderstanding of the events is similar to how damen viewed laurent in book 1 and some of book 2. except now he gets the irony

He looked at Laurent’s tent of silks, the pennants unfurled in the breeze, their starbursts undulating. The distant voices of the men swelled briefly, then dropped away. It would not be like this. It would be a systematic campaign moving southwards towards Ios, building on the support he had from the kyroi factions. He would not be stealing out of camp at night to spin mad plans, to dress in unfamiliar clothes and forge alliances with rogue clans, or to fight alongside pony-riding warriors, capturing bandits improbably in the mountains. It would not be like this again.

:(

‘Keep the prisoners alive, keep the women on side, keep my men from the women,’ said Laurent, as though reciting from a checklist. ‘Come over here and talk geography.’ He came as he was bid, and took a seat opposite Laurent, across the map.

they’re so cute i can’t stand them. “come over here and talk geography” SHUT UP

Laurent did not tend to show any of the usual outward signs of fatigue. The control that he asserted and maintained over the troop was an extension of the control with which he ruled himself. A few tells existed. The words, perhaps.

“the words, perhaps” is such a funny line here. because like yeah no shit, but also how is damen supposed to know when laurent’s words actually reflect his true feelings?

Instinctively, Damen brought his hand up to squeeze Laurent’s shoulder gently—and then stopped. Laurent went very still, as Damen became aware of what he had just done, and that his grip was still on Laurent’s shoulder. He felt the locked muscles like hard wood beneath his hand. ‘Stiff?’ said Damen, casually. ‘A little,’ said Laurent, after a moment in which Damen’s heart knocked twice against the inside of his chest.

one thing i really appreciate about capri is the way that laurent is written, as a character with trauma/baggage who experiences intimacy in a way you wouldn’t expect from the love interest in a romance novel. he doesn’t make anything easy, for himself or for damen. his physical and mental reactions to things are very telling and consistent, and i appreciate pacat’s commitment to honoring that aspect of the character. that way it’s so much more rewarding when we finally see laurent let go of control and experience love that doesn’t hurt him.

i won’t do an official count for “laurent intimacy issues,” since it’s not nearly as clear-cut as “laurent leans,” but if there’s something that strikes this chord with me, i do want to make note of it. just… stuff that i personally appreciate, especially from a love interest in a romance novel, whose whole narrative job—one would expect—is to love the protagonist and have hot sex. but sensitive and traumatized people deserve love and intimacy, too, at their own pace and on their own terms. and laurent has a lot more going on than what damen perceives, or what the romance genre dictates. it’s nice to point out little moments where his issues affect his physical and emotional reactions, because it’s nice to know that those moments 1) exist and 2) don’t make him any less of a romantic lead.

He applied a gentle pressure with his thumbs. He said, ‘You brought me ice, last night.’ ‘This,’ said Laurent, ‘is a little more—’ It was a word of sharp points: ‘—intimate,’ he said, ‘than ice.’ ‘Too intimate?’ Damen said. Slowly, he was kneading Laurent’s shoulders. He did not usually think of himself as someone with suicidal impulses. Laurent did not relax at all, just stood unmoving. And then, at the apsis of his thumbs, a muscle shifted beneath pressure, unlocking a sequence all the way down Laurent’s back. Laurent said, unwillingly, ‘I . . . There.’ ‘Here?’ ‘Yes.’

a lot going on here! made even more complicated by damen’s pov!

damen takes physical intimacy much less seriously than laurent. prior to book 1, he has always enjoyed willing and enthusiastic partners (some of whom were conditioned into that enthusiasm, but we’ll deal with that later), and to him, sex is not a means of abuse or power. prior to book 1, intimacy was never used to disempower damen. laurent, obviously, is very different. pretty much all he knows of intimacy is abuse and disempowerment.

so, being aware of laurent’s trauma and also being fairly perceptive of the signs pointing towards it, i can see here that laurent is fighting a massive battle with himself. because, like, he does want this. but he doesn’t want to want this, because this is something he doesn’t have control over. the fact that he doesn’t throw damen off, and even explicitly asks him to massage a certain spot, is a demonstration of vulnerability that damen doesn't really understand.

which isn't bad or wrong of him, at all! if he did understand more about laurent’s trauma and responses, he’d almost certainly be less confident with initiating intimacy, which is something laurent needs from a partner. it's a lot harder when they're both completely terrified (which damen is, in a different way, but lesser so.) damen is afraid that laurent will bite his head off because he’s a bitch, not because he’s traumatized. and i think that’s a good place for them to be, at this stage of their relationship.

also, the “suicidal impulses” quip is great.

He felt Laurent subtly give himself up to his hands; yet as with a man closing his eyes on the edge of a cliff, it was an act of continuous tension, not surrender.

yeah

‘Like this?’ ‘Yes.’

“he likes that. do it harder.”

Laurent’s head had dropped forward a little. Damen had no idea what he was doing. He was distantly aware that he had had his hands on Laurent’s body once before, and couldn’t believe it, because it felt so impossible now; yet that moment felt connected to this one, even if only in contrast, his current caution against the unguarded way he had let his hands slide down over Laurent’s wet skin.

damen, meanwhile, has recently developed his own intimacy issues/trauma in book 1. these two are a mess

‘Is it so hard to relax?’ said Damen, quietly.

YEAH. IT IS.

‘You only have to walk outside to see what you’ve accomplished. Those men are yours.’ He didn’t pay attention to the signs, the slight stiffening. ‘Whatever happens tomorrow, you’ve done more than anyone could—’ ‘That’s enough,’ said Laurent, pushing himself away unexpectedly.

damen he’s not stressed bc of the war stuff, he’s stressed bc another human being is showing him physical affection and he actually wants it to be happening

When Laurent turned to face him, his eyes were dark. His lips were parted uncertainly. He had lifted his hand to his own shoulder, as though chasing a ghost touch there. He did not look exactly relaxed, but the movement did look a little easier. As if realising that, Laurent said, almost awkwardly, ‘Thank you.’ And then, in wry acknowledgement: ‘Getting tied up leaves an impression. I didn’t realise being captured was so uncomfortable.’

ohhhhh my god. oh my god. so fucking real, every line is so fucking real. the relief of no longer being touched, being back in control. the fuckin, phantom touch on the shoulder—an assessment of the massage, yes, but also… whose ghost is it? damen isn’t asking that question, but i am, and it’s sad. and then the awkward thanks, and the immediate snarky comment to follow up. it’s just so real.

‘I promise I’ll never tie you to the back of a horse,’ said Laurent. There was a pause in which Laurent’s mordant gaze was on him. ‘That’s right, I’m still captured,’ said Damen.

says the protagonist of the “captive prince” series

‘Your eyes say, “For now,”’ Laurent said. ‘Your eyes have always said, “For now.”’

ohhh this line is juicy. because like, yeah, there’s the melancholy yearning context of the last 10 or so chapters, but before? when they were enemies, when laurent was actively hurting and trying to disempower damen? even then, he never showed laurent submission. and laurent clearly noticed. they make me so crazyyyy

‘If you were a pet, I would have gifted you enough by now to buy out your contract, many times over.’

this is more a flaw in my understanding of the pet system, but is he saying that he’s done damen enough favors that if the favors were monetary he could afford to pay off his contract? that’s my best understanding of the line at this point.

‘I’d still be here,’ said Damen, ‘with you. I told you that I would see this border dispute through to its finish. Do you think I’d go back on my word?’ ‘No,’ said Laurent, almost as if he was realising it for the first time.

they drive me insane. the whole “suffering alone” theme—laurent is realizing that he hasn’t been suffering alone, lately, because damen is intentionally staying by his side. laurent may be great at strategic thinking, but he is so used to being manipulated and abused that he doesn’t even consider that someone could be genuinely devoted to him, as a person.

But I know you don’t like it. I remember how much it maddened you in the palace, to be bound and powerless. I felt yesterday how badly you wanted to hit someone.

another interesting re-contextualization of book 1! although it’s not quite an apology, bc i’m sure laurent was aware of the maddening and was probably like “good. this guy killed my brother”

Damen found he’d moved without realising it, his fingers lifting to touch the bruised edge of Laurent’s jaw. He said, ‘The man who did this to you.’ The words just came out. The warmth of skin under his fingers in that moment took all his attention, before he became aware that Laurent had jerked back and was staring at him, blue eyes huge with pupil. Damen was suddenly aware of how out of control he was—he felt—and called violently on his faculties to try to put a stop to—this. ‘I’m sorry. I . . . know better than that.’

“i know better than that” is an INSANE thing for him to say here, by the way. they’re both so compelled by each other and afraid of each other. the amount of work pacat has put into their arc/characterization so far means that scenes like these can have something going on between every single line. honestly i think there’s more going on here off the page, than there is on it

‘No. Wait. I . . . wait.’ Damen stopped, and turned. Laurent’s gaze was edged with indecipherable emotion, and his jaw was set at a new angle. The silence stretched out for such a long time that the words, when they came, were a shock. ‘What Govart said about my brother and I . . . it wasn’t true.’ ‘I never thought it was,’ said Damen, uneasily. ‘I mean that whatever . . . whatever taint exists in my family, Auguste was free of it.’ ‘Taint?’

fascinated by the possible reasons for laurent to say this, in this moment. he uses it on the page to then say that damen is a good and honorable person like auguste, so that’s the easy answer. but if he was just experiencing some ptsd flashbacks, i wonder if this is also something of a grounding statement for himself. because we know who he’s referring to, when he’s talking about bad people on his family tree. it’s almost like he’s trying to figure out how to frame this situation, more for himself than damen—laurent feels protected and cared for in this moment, and the last time he allowed himself to feel that way after auguste’s death, his uncle had taken advantage. so of course he’s picturing his uncle. but this statement, a reminder to himself that damen is more like auguste than the regent, and auguste would have never done anything with laurent in the way the regent had… augh. laurent your brain.

‘I wanted to tell you that, because you,’ said Laurent, as though he was forcing the words out, ‘You remind me of him. He was the best man I have ever known. You deserve to know that, as you deserve at least a fair . . . In Arles, I treated you with malice and cruelty. I will not insult you by attempting to atone for deeds with words, but I would not treat you that way again. I was angry. Angry, that isn’t the word.’ It was bitten off; a jagged silence followed.

this is a laurent apology! no “sorry” necessary. and he’s the closest to telling damen the truth as he’s ever been, but still he stops himself. i wonder if it’s partially out of shame, for how he treated damen. a refusal to make an excuse, because he understands the cruelty of his actions regardless. and of course he has cognitive dissonance to maintain and tactical reasons for keeping the lie going. but still, this is honest.

Then, with a return to his more usual tone, ‘And you don’t need to take watch,’ said Laurent. ‘You sleep prudently.’

of course he can’t just say, like, “sleep well” or “good night.” prudently means carefully, or in good judgment… so like, he’d wake up if something dangerous happened? laurent trusts that? i can’t tell if the statement is an observation or a command. it’s either, “[i want you to] sleep mindfully” or “you sleep mindfully [so you don’t need to stay awake on watch].” hmmm

Damen searched his face, but found nothing in it that he could read, which, he supposed, as he lifted his hands to the laces of his own jacket, was typical.

buddy there is so much subtext going on here it’s okay just get some rest

[stardustdiiving]

I love hearing about queer headcanons so I'll probably end up asking about all of them, but how about starting with Sumeru?

(ask in reference to this post)

YES I can do a few sumeru characters to start (heres Wanderer, Cynonari, Collei, and Nahida)

(there’s accidently aroace headcanons in 3/4 of them OOOPS)

Wanderer: talked about his gender (trans guy) here, sexuality wise I see him as gay and probably mostly t4t. I also have a vision where Wanderer has the same relationship with aro + aceness as Collei but in sort of opposite directions. So my idea is Wanderer feels a lot of alienation & detachment regarding romance & sex & shares a lot of similar experiences to aro and/or ace people, but would choose to not ID as either label because after some time he concludes his relationship with both kinds of attraction is very influenced by trauma, and it would be more healthy for him personally to work on building a positive relationship with romantic + sexual attraction since he does actually experience it. So he sits on a plane of not identifying as aro or ace but like he gets it

Collei: Collei on the other hand, in contrast to Wanderer, finds aro + ace labels really helpful for understanding herself, even if she also believes in her relationship with both kinds of attraction overlapping a lot with trauma. Because for her she genuinely just doesn’t really feel she experiences either attraction and that’s sort of a comfortable default/conclusion for her. Specifically I’d give her the demi aro and asexual labels…in my head this goes with my Tighnari & Cyno headcanons where both of them are in an aroace relationship and give her really good advice/feedback on her feelings that make her feel more able to be confident about how she feels regarding attraction. Along with that I think she’s sort of questioning sexuality labels but would refer to herself as sapphic as a shorthand explanation. Gender wise I have a few different headcanons in mind…either transfem, demigirl, or bigender/genderfluid maybe? I see her as having multiple ideas of what sort of gender presentation she wants and going between them

Tighnari + Cyno: Okay so here I need to pitch my demi-aroace Cynonari vision. I think both Cyno and Tighnari would view their own queerness in ways pretty similar to each other, and one facet of this is where they fall on the aroace spectrum. I think it aligns perfectly where they’re both like, yeah I have no interest in romance or relationships the way people usually engage with them but you’re the only one who gets the exact way I feel about it + we get along well so honestly I’m down to be in our own form of a relationship with you specifically. I don’t think they really do labels with a lot of things: both of them are trans + non binary in one way or another, and both use gay/queer as identifying terms, but don’t have a lot of specifications beyond using umbrella labels really. They’re just chilling. As established this ends up being a good fit for their dynamic with Collei bc I think it gives her a lot more confidence about navigating her own queerness seeing Cynonari just kind of hang out and do their own thing

Nahida: she’s baby and does not strike me as someone who is going to think about romance or sexuality until she’s a lot older. I think if you asked Nahida to explain her gender to you she would probably employ a lot of very confusing metaphors you do not understand, all in an attempt to articulate what I’d write as a pretty shared experience between all the Archons in how they view gender. They seem to like…view themselves as genderless but sometimes opting into gender if they feel like it—and tend to intuitively relate it to their element. Which means the most you get from Nahida’s metaphors is she’s telling you her gender is plant and you do not get it but it doesn’t seem wrong so what can you do. I also have this additional thought I think is funny about Wanderer and Nahida having very deep philosophical discussions about immortal gender at 3 in the morning. In the context of the English language at least I think we need to tell Nahida about neopronouns I think she’d be a fan. So in summary she’s kind of baby and is not giving this stuff much thought right now but also being a god in my gender impact dimension kind of inherently makes you ponder the orb (gender)

[pkmnomegaverse]

Also, as much as I think age discourse is annoying and the ages of fictional characters are one of the least interesting things about them you can focus on (bonus points when they’re vague and don’t matter in the grand scheme of the overall narrative) I have thought long and hard about how age would work in the Pokemon world. I always found it interesting how there’s a very strong implication you must be considered an “adult” or at least have all the legal rights of an adult at a younger age in the Pokemon world. It’s for sure younger than 18. All the teen and child gym leaders have implications. Like if Cheren is somehow 16 in BW2, you’re lying to yourself if you think he’s still being treated like a minor. He’s a Gym Leader who’s also a teacher, living on his own. I’m sorry, but you’re the delusional one if you think he’s not being treated as an adult by that point in terms of how society views him. Green has a similar issue in HGSS. He’s out living his own life with a full time job at 14 (which he’s arguably doing an iffy job at, but still). So even ignoring anything related to shipping and romance, the worldbuilding is there.

[gloamses]

cw discussion of SA in fiction

but I think it’s weird how it seems like a lot of genre fiction romance (supernatural/paranormal romance, romantasy, etc) seems very fixated on male sexual trauma as an element of tragic backstory - specifically male sexual trauma - but also seems almost entirely disinterested in any long-term psychological ramifications of this trauma. like I’ve now read a lot of bestselling romance in which the male love interest has been raped or sexually abused, or if not, has experienced some allegorically similar loss of agency (mind control, slavery, etc). I would venture to say it’s most of the genre fiction romance I’ve read, in fact! it’s an extremely common theme, in both m/m and m/f

yet it’s rare for the survivor to actually manifest any sexual hangups once he gets with his endgame love interest. which I’d think would kind of be the purpose of introducing that kind of element, to have it as a point of….. not conflict per se, but a hurdle that they work through together, via trust and communication, in contrast with the brutality of their past. but generally once they get to the point of having sex within the story, it’s just not even a conversation. they’re fine. sometimes the trauma completely disappears from the narrative after that point and is never mentioned again. and I know it’s probably not very sexy to have sex scenes wherein one party is fighting dissociation, or freezing up, or having a panic attack, but it WOULD be more interesting and realistic character writing, and potentially make the payoff more rewarding down the line in a narrative sense

maybe it’s just nice to fantasize that, regardless of the brutality of your past, you can find a partner whom you just trust wholly despite everything, where you don’t need to work meticulously through a ton of baggage because they just make you feel that safe? but then why is it so often the guy/non-pov/secondary lead with the trauma, which the woman and/or real main lead must discover and act as remedy to? is it a fantasy about being able to fix/save someone with the purity of your love? but in that case again wouldn’t there at least be a conversation about this when it’s time to fool around, and wouldn’t it continue to be an element of the story? I dunno. can’t help feeling like a lot of it is just a “instant audience sympathy” trump card for male characters, especially superficially-douchey ones, which doesn’t permit actual trauma responses beyond maybe a little tight-jawed quivering when they explain themselves to the mc, because that would be unmanly and unsexy. and this probably says something about the way we view sexual trauma in men huh

[aranarumei]

todobaku You know I had to do this also

ask me about a ship and I’ll give my opinions + classify them as does / doesn’t make sense, does / doesn’t compel me

yeah todobaku… I can do todobaku! picking these asks off as I please lol. I think this is the shortest one to answer so under the cut:

this is going to sound like a lie the moment you look at my ao3 stats, but back in 2015, my first bnha ship involving bakugou was actually todobaku. at the time, I really enjoyed kirishima & bakugou in a platonic sense but hadn’t felt any real sense of like. emotional tension that I tend to like for my romances. then post-bakugou getting kidnapped it’s kirishima who’s like. we’ve got to get him back! and I began to get invested in kiribaku that way. but todobaku. man. obviously this is a does make sense, does compel me situation.

It’s just good! the sports festival arc especially, the way bakugou overhears todoroki talking about his family situation, and then kind of mirrors midoriya in terms of telling him like. forget that background and just face me head on! I think the sports festival I the moment we really get to see bakugou as a sort of… honorable person? maybe not honorable necessarily… but it’s an extension of his pride, that he wants to fight on equal terms. obviously as someone who loves rivalry, I love that kind of thing. and then when that doesn’t pan out for him, he has to get chained to the podium in order to accept the medal. that’s a situation one can really dig their claws into, regarding bakugou and todoroki’s relationship… outside of that, I think todoroki’s generally quite calm when talking to bakugou, which is neat… I just like how they play off each other? like I feel todoroki’s view of him is, compared to some of the other members in his class, quite levelheaded.

I think it’s also really fun when taking into account their family backgrounds… obviously mileage may vary on this, but at the very least I think bakugou’s relationship with his family is a little complicated. whether you lean positively or negatively on that is up to you. but it’s complicated in a really different way from todoroki, which I think is really fun. And I think they’re kind of similar types of characters actually, in that they’re both really… internal? like todoroki’s kind of quiet and muted and having a lot of inner dialogue, and bakugous’ really loud and shouty, sure, but he’s not really shouting out his inner feelings. and bakugou can be quiet and serious. he goes to bed so early and everything, he’s a total nerd.

what else… I like that they don’t have baggage with each other. well the sports festival probably creates a little baggage for them. but its not like… how do I say this… it’s not like it’s a fundamental incompatibility that’s the reason for their distance from each other. it’s just situations. the way I see todobaku is that feeling of like. two people who are a little too observant of the other, and when they too converse it’s charged with this strangeness of like. I wonder if I’m thinking about this more than the other person is.

[arodabi]

okay, i’m finally getting around to writing this, and uhh ill say its for aro week too. this is written as an aro person directed at alloromantic people. when i refer to writing, i’m kind of using it as a general term for creative works. Here’s me throwing my hat in on the question:

Can you ship aromantic characters?

and my answer is,,,,, actually a question. Why do you want to ship aromantic characters? 

I want alloros to realize that for a lot of aros, we do not get to see ourselves represented often. I can actually count on like one hand how many popular canon aro characters there are, and on the whole, none of their identities are respected. people constantly try to weasel their way out of actually writing aro characters, or they just ignore or deny their identity outright. fandom spaces (hell creative spaces in general) are at best not welcoming to aros, and at worst actively hostile towards us. So when the first question brought up when a character gets canonically confirmed as aro is “okay cool but can i ship them???” or “that’s nice but how can i still write about my fave ship that involves them??” i want to fucking scream. its a slap to the face and it shows that people really do not give a shit about aros. you say stuff like that and all i hear is “my fictional ship is so much more important than representing your marginalized minority identity” so instead of me just sitting here and saying “yes you can totally ship aro characters, as long as you’re respectful!!!” i’m saying “can you stop and think why you want to shove an aro character into a romantic relationship at the first chance you get?? maybe you have some arophobia you haven’t worked on?? maybe since we live in an amatonormative world, you’re letting that influence your views??” because that question being the first thing out of your mouth when you see a character you like confirmed as aro? that’s already disrespectful towards aros in my book.

So back to my question, Why do you want to ship aromantic characters? is it because you can’t write characters without them being in romantic relationships? or because you think a character without a romantic relationship is boring? Because if so, that’s a bad reason and it sounds like amatonormativity is rotting your brain. 

Is it because you just really like a ship with the aro character? Because you can write two characters with a strong relationship without writing them as a couple. A strong friendship can hold just as much power as a romantic relationship.

Is it because fuck aros, i will write what I wanna write and I don't wanna write this character with their canon identity? because then you’re just an arophobic asshole that needs to work on your shitty opinions. aro representation is just as important as any other lgbtqia+ representation.

Now if you’re reading this and thinking “well i heard aros can be in queerplatonic relationships!” I want you to think for a second. Are you writing a qpr or are you writing a romantic relationship with the serial numbers filed off? Have you talked to aro people or read stuff actually written by us? because, yes, some qprs can look a lot like a romantic relationship from the outside, but that’s just it, you’re looking at it from the outside. qprs are more than just “romantic relationship with extra steps”, and i think it’s really telling how many times i see alloromantic people saying they’re depicting an aro character in a qpr, not a romantic relationship, but then they never ever make any effort to distinguish the qpr from any other romantic relationship they write or draw. It just feels like qprs are getting used by alloros as a gatcha any time an aro person objects to how they depict (or don’t depict) aromanticism. if you want to write a character in a qpr then go for it! but you need to actually do research, talk to aros, get multiple opinions and not just take the first opinion that agrees with you and run with it.

“But what about headcanoning a character as arospec?” now i will say before i go into this, i am aro, not arospec, so if an arospec person wants to come in and correct me at any part here im happy to listen. but my problem when alloros bring up arospec identities is a very similar problem to how qprs are often depicted. I remember when Peridot Stevenuniverse got confirmed aro (she did, do not argue this with me) people were jumping over themselves to assure everyone that “a character getting confirmed as aro just means they are any arospec identity” which,, uhh,, not true? i mean if an arospec person wants to see a canon aro character as, say, aroflux, i’ve got no problem, aro and arospec people can do what they want really. but, i do have a problem with all the alloro fans who were spreading this. because, do you really see the character as demiromantic? or are you using that identity to deflect criticism from erasing aro identities? are you actually trying to write a good depiction of a demiro person? or are you just writing normal ship stuff and slapping a “uwu ive never felt romantic attraction until i met you! and now i will act exactly like any alloromantic person!” at the beginning? being in fandom spaces, i do see the occasional fic actually depicting an aspec identity (i say aspec her because aro is so rare that most of these examples i’ve seen have been acespec identities rather than arospec) but like 99% of the time, that’s written by someone who actually shares the identity. before you use our terms and identities to cover your ass when you erase us, consider not fucking doing that. consider listening to all aros and getting our thoughts and input. 

And last here is “but what about romance positive aros?” now i think most of what i’ve said previously can be applied here. the only thing i wanna add is, i think its very interesting that almost every time i see non aros depict aros, they always write them as very into romance, very open to be in romantic relationships, and very quiet about their aro identity. despite the character in canon not showing any of these traits. romance positive aros are good and important, but not every aro is romance positive. there’s quite a few of us that are romance repulsed, and alloros only depicting aros as super romance positive no matter what is suspicious to say the least. if an aro character is shown to be open to participating in romantic activities in canon then of course write them that way. but if an aro character is shown to be uninterested in, or even actively against romantic activities then respect that too.

so, to wrap up my thoughts in this ramble: please ask yourself why you want to ship aro characters so bad, because if the only reason is that amatonormativity has brainwashed you into not being able to write, or draw, or do anything with a character without them being in a romantic relationship, then you uhhh need to work on that, that’s honestly a writing/creative flaw imo. if you like the relationship dynamic between an aro character and another character, consider making them friends. friendship is not less powerful than romantic relationships. nobody is ever too old for the power of friendship trope. If you’re erasing an aro character’s identity because fuck aros, then fuck off somewhere far away from me and work on your bullshit. qprs, arospec identities, and romance positive aros are all very real, very important parts of the aro community, but please talk to other aros about them and actually make an effort to understand how these things work, dont just assume. And also don’t use these things as a way to erase aro identities and cover your ass if get called out. its disrespectful towards all aros.

The most important thing to do before writing or creating work with aro characters is to talk to aros, and not just the aros that agree with you. look up what a qpr actually is, learn how aros experience their arospec identities, talk to aros with multiple outlooks on romance. and if you can’t bring yourself to reach out, at least read through our own writings, whether that’s fiction, or informational posts, fuck, look through our memes if u wanna. Just please actually make an effort.

So, Can you ship aro characters? its complicated. look at trends in your fandom, question why you want to, and do research. Be an aro ally, listen to us. That’s really the most important thing.

[wenellyb]

I don't know how to explain this but TFATWS reads a lot like “yes Sam and Bucky are romantically involved but this is not a romance so we won't delve into their relationship”.

If you think about it, in Marvel movies, the romance is not at the center of the plot. Even in solo movies, there is usually just one kiss, never more. And it the Avengers, there are usually no kissed between the couples. 

I'm trying to stay away my shipper googles but even then, some scenes don't make sense to me. I love watching movies and TV shows and one thing I like is that dialogues are not put there randomly, the script has a meaning, the words have a meaning, and the scenes they decide to keep have a meaning.

And for some of the Sambucky scenes in TFATWS,  I’m struggling to find any other meaning than “Sam and Bucky had feelings for eachother at some point”.

You can argue that jokes about the 2 partners being more than just friends is a recurring joke in a lot of buddy cop movies, but in those movies, it is usually a joke, just for laughs. The only scenes that would fall into that category in the FATWS are the rolling in the flower field scene and the therapy lesson scene where Sam and Bucky get so close that there legs are intertwined. 

All the other scenes are so emotionally heavy it's difficult to categorize them as only fanservice, or two guys being friends. I'm not saying they aren't any emotional scenes in buddy cop movies, but usually the emotional scenes don't go as deep as what we've seen  in the Falcon and the Winter Soldier. 

I tried to look at all their scenes together and split them into different categories, and I stilll end up with some scenes that point to a relationship that goes beyond friendship between Sam and Bucky:

Scenes that fall into the fanservice category and there just for laughs:

The bickering about wizards and sorcerers in episode 2

The rolling in the flower field scene and the beginning of the therapy scene.

Sam asking Bucky to do something when the Dora Milaje are attacking John Walker in episode 4

Scenes that can be seen as purely friendship:

In episode 2:

 Bucky deciding to follow Sam because I quote  "he doesn't trust Redwing". What is that even supposed to mean? ... He probably meant I don't trust Redwing to protect Sam like he would.

Bucky standing up from the stack where he was sitting on, to go sit next to Sam when they were on the flight back from their mission. 

Sam waiting for Bucky in the police station, even though they try to act as if they're not friends

Sam agreeing to go see Zemo with little to no protest

In episode 3:

Sam making sure Bucky is alright and asking him if he's ok

Sam touching Bucky's metal arm when he’s pretending to be the Winter Soldier

In episode 4:

Bucky saying "I'm going with you" when Sam says Karli wants to meet with him alone.

In episode 5:

The shield practice scene when they have a heart-to-heart talk in episode 5 about what the shield meant for Bucky and Bucky finally apologizing for the way he treated Sam and explaining how as a White man he couldn't possibly know what it would mean for Sam to be Captain America

Sam asking if Bucky is ready for some tough love.

Scenes that make no sense if we see their relations as just friendship:

In episode 2: 

The therapist said she heard a lot about Sam, she wants Sam to stay for the therapy for I don't know what reason, she makes them do a couple exercise, and says it explicitly.

Why would the therapist say she heard a lot about about Sam, that she want to do a couples exercise with them? Those scenes alone are alright, but when you take them together it's quite interesting. 

The couples therapy trope has been used in a lot of Buddy cop movies or TV shows, but usually they don't delve into sensitive topics like they did in TFATWS, the scene was so emotional for a few seconds, I forgot it was a Marvel show.

In episode 3:

When Bucky tells Sam he helped Zemo escape, Sam was furious, and couldn't stop yelling at Bucky about how insane his plan was, and Sam was right. But the moment Bucky looks him in the eyes and basically says, "please do it for me", Sam agrees right away... Excuse me what??? How does this make sense?                                                                              

If my friends ask me to work with an international criminal who just escaped from prison, I wouldn't just stop arguing with them just because they looked at me with puppy eyes. I would continue to yell at them until the end of the mission. Sam was like, “ok, ok, I'll do it for you”? I'm sorry but that is not friendship only, it's something else.

In Episode 5:

 Can we talk about Bucky's reaction when Torres arrived in Episode 5?? The annoyed face when Torres walks in and Bucky walking away right after that, without even saying goodbye? Torres is the sweetest soul on earth, how can anybody hate him? Why would Bucky not like him??? This scene make no sense unless they're trying to tell us that Bucky is jealous or something.

Bucky asking a favor to Ayo, when he's not in good terms with the Wakandans. I'm sorry but do you realize how heavy this scene is? Ayo, just told Bucky that he should lay low for a while, and Bucky understands that, but his first thought is "I need to get a gift from Sam" first. Nope nope nope, you can't tell me this is just friendship. Ok, maybe it is, but I don't understand this filming choice. Plotwise, Sam could have asked for a suit or new wings himself.  I'm sure Sam is in very good terms with T'Challa and the Wakandans... What does it mean that Bucky was the one to ask for it as a gift to Sam, when Bucky was in a already in a difficult situation with the Wakandans due to him freeing Zemo.

Bucky touching Sam's waist to ask him to move when he starts helping him with the boat repair. And Bucky coming from behind to do so, giving us a very short but intimate scene.

Their conversation about Bucky staying over for the night: Bucky saying he doesn't want to make things weird with Sam and his family by staying over, and Sam saying how the people in the town are so open-minded. Why would they have that conversation if Sam and Bucky are only friends? Sarah knows about Bucky and his past, she know that he and Sam are friends (sort of), why would a friend staying over make things weird between him and his family? Why would Sam need to say that the people in this town are open-minded?

The video montage of them building the boat the day after. Anyone knows why they would show us that if they were only friends, and with THAT music choice? 

The extra long handshake at the end of their training scene, when they kept holding hands and looking into eachother’s eyes while talking together, and Bucky basically says he'll be there for Sam whenever he needs him.

I’m sorry but it doesn’t seem to me that they are being portrayed as just friends

Usually in buddy cop movies/ TV Shows, there are always joke but in the FATWS, some scenes are so emotional that I feel like I'm missing something. Bucky has this whole passive agressive behavior with Sam and yet he's unable to let Sam go on a mission on his own. One thing I really can't understand is that Bucky always seems know where to find Sam, as if he had been keeping tabs on him. 

So yes, there's definitely chemistry between Sebastian Stan and Anthony Mackie, due to their friendship but it’s not only that. The writers and director have made the choice to keep some scenes and some dialogues ambiguous.

In some of the scenes we can see that there's more to Bucky and Sam's story than we know.

And they're not the first Marvel couple to have a similar treatment: Wanda and Vision's relationships was very subtle at the beginning, same for Natasha and Bruce, we rarely see them together explicitly but we knew they had a relationship.

It's the same for Sam and Bucky, some of the scenes only make sense if there has been a romantic relationship between Sam and Bucky at some point.

To me it's really like Sam and Bucky are set up as a couple or at least two people who have been romantically involved in the past, but the show won't expand on that because this is a superhero show, not a romance.

In an action movie, you would see some couples, or people who are obviously in a relationship or hints that there is something going on between them, but rarely would you see a kiss, that’s what I feel is happening here.

Last point: if Sam and Bucky had kissed in Episode 5 after their talk, it wouldn't have been out of nowhere and it wouldn't have changed anything to the plot. That's how I know my theory isn't that far-fetched.

I would love to hear your thoughts about some or all of these scenes (especially the Torres one, that one is driving me crazy)  and see what you think about it?

If you see their relationship being portrayed as pure friendship, I would like to know why. And would also love to hear how you guys interpret their other scenes together and if you have some different point of views about the scenes in the show.

[fuckyeahisawthat]

I'm just curious (still learning) at what point after 1100 AD would Joe and Nicky been in actual danger due to homophobia? At what point would they have to start lying to people about the nature of their amazing relationship, just to stay safe? Thanks!

(This is in reference to this post, in which I skimmed over like 900 years of sociological changes in identity formation in very very broad strokes.)

So. Here’s the thing. As “western” queer people in the modern world, I think we highly associate safety with being able to be out of the closet. Can I kiss my partner in public or walk down the street holding hands without fear of encountering hate speech or physical violence? Can I tell my friends, family and coworkers about my relationship without fear of social ostracization or economic consequences?

But that’s a very modern perspective. Between “pride parade!!” and “we will definitely be murdered if anyone finds out we are lovers,” there is...A LOT of space for different kinds of historical queer experience.

So it’s not so much that Yusuf and Nicolò could be safely “out of the closet” in 12th century Baghdad but not in 19th century London. It’s not quite as far from that as you might think. But they wouldn’t have thought about it that way.

In the first few hundred years of their existence, the Islamic world was...full of contradictions when it came to homosexuality. You had a strong taboo against adult men being the receptive partner in penetrative sex, but you also had poets--like, the most famous poets of their times--writing tons of homoerotic poetry about desiring young men and boys, and that was normal and even celebrated. (If you’re familiar with the sexual mores of ancient Greece...lots of similarities here.) You had clerics writing about how there should be harsh punishments for “sodomy,” but in practice in everyday life very, very few people were ever actually disciplined in the legal system for something like that. And other forms of sexual activity between men, like kissing and various forms of non-penetrative sex, were just...not a big deal. At the same time there was kind of an unspoken “don’t ask, don’t tell” social contract around sex between men. Like, we know this thing is definitely happening, and we’re not going to talk about it, and that’s what makes it socially acceptable to continue happening. So you can have a society that in the written, religious record looks fairly intolerant toward sex between men; in practice is actually quite tolerant; where everyone sort of knows things about certain people, but where no one is really “out” in the modern sense of the terms.

At the same time, pretty much everywhere in the world at this time but definitely in the Middle East, casual touch between men was much more normalized. Two men holding hands or linking arms when walking down the street, sitting pressed up next to each other, falling asleep with your head on your male companion’s shoulder...a whole range of things that look decidedly snuggly to our modern gaze would have been totally acceptable between friends of the same gender, and would not have been considered sexual in any way. (This is still true in much of the Middle East today.)

So you can easily imagine a scenario where, like, Nicolò is lounging with his head on Yusuf’s shoulder, eating dates and listening to some saucy Abu Nuwas poem being recited, and then they go back to their private quarters and they have as much sex as they want. Are they “out”? Not really. Is anyone bothering them about how they’re living their lives? Not in the slightest. Do some people in that room see them and know? Probably, but that’s their private business and we’re not gonna talk about it. Frankly that sounds like a pretty sweet existence for a 12th century queer.

To be fair, they have a few advantages. They’re men, which means no one will really question them traveling together, without wives or families. They can easily say they’re friends or business partners and no one will really give it a second thought. I’m sure having to break off contact with their families was sad, but it’s also the case that there’s no one around asking when they’re going to get married to a woman and have children so we have someone to inherit the family business. It gives them a kind of freedom that a lot of other queer people around them wouldn’t have had.

I think once they meet up with Andy and Quynh, they do do things like pretending to be two married couples traveling together. But that’s more because of sexism, because two unmarried women traveling with two men who were not their husbands would turn some heads.

In Europe at the time, Christian theology is pretty not-into all kinds of non-procreative sex, but sex between men is not necessarily viewed as a worse sin than, say, masturbation, or sex between men and women out of wedlock. And it’s like, a category of sin that a lot of people are doing all the time, so if you were to confess such a thing to your local priest, you would be told to do penance but the consequences would be fairly mild. And many of the same things regarding casual touch hold true. Various rituals of kissing, including men kissing men on the mouth, are used as greetings, to seal contracts, and as part of mass.

Medieval Europe also had a concept variously called passionate, romantic, or chivalric friendship--close relationships between two people of the same gender that could be long-lasting, physically affectionate, emotionally intense in a way we would today read as romantic, and (allegedly) celibate. Were some of these passionate friendships actually queer relationships with a sexual component that just wasn’t talked about? Probably. Were some of them what we would define as queerplatonic or homoromantic asexual relationships today? Probably. Is it even useful to try to stuff these experiences into modern relationship categories? Debatable. The point is...the borders between what was defined as friendship, romance and love were different. Two men who traveled together, slept in the same bed, shared resources, were emotionally intimate with each other, and otherwise entwined their lives would not necessarily have been assumed to be sex partners in medieval Europe. And (I think this is the important part) Yusuf and Nicolò would not necessarily have seen being perceived as passionate friends as “hiding” the true nature of their relationship or as assigning some lesser value to it.

In terms of how they are perceived in public, I think things really don’t start to change until the early 20th century. It’s a gradual process, but over the first half of the 20th century, more or less, affectionate touch between men becomes defined as “gay” and a mainstream (straight) masculinity that is concerned with defining itself as “not gay” emerges. Affectionate touch, and then any show of loving emotion between men, gradually becomes less and less acceptable, to a degree that probably seems absurd to two 900-year-old Mediterraneans. (The absurdity is really well-expressed in the van scene, which is literally like “Bro is it gay to [checks notes]...express concern about the well-being of the person you were just violently kidnapped with?”)

Like, on the one hand, you have queer people talking openly about their sexuality in ways that were not an option at earlier times in their lives. But at the same time you have to be careful holding hands walking down the high street now because someone might chuck an empty beer bottle at you. Must’ve been a real wild transition for them.

[hamliet]

Hey hamliet I want to read QJJ but it’s a little intimidating...could you tell me a bit what it’s like? CP dynamic and what kinda story it is (tragedy, hopeful, plot-heavy or romance-heavy?) thank you! I’d like to hear your thoughts on it.

Hi! Yeah, it's definitely plot-heavy and... complex. I feel you! It's also romance heavy, though. They're really well intertwined.

The main pairing is enemies to lovers, and it's told equally from both of their points of view. As for their dynamic: 

Shen Zechuan is the youngest son of an accused traitor who barely survives a massacre of a battle thanks to his elder sworn brother saving him at the cost of his own life. Because Shen Zechuan is the only survivor of the battle and of the Shen family, he's arrested and tortured as a scapegoat. Shen Zechuan’s father was a “prince” (think governor more so than a blood prince) and his mother was a courtesan concubine (plus he was the 8th son), so his status even in his home was pretty low and his blood brothers weren’t really part of his life. 

Meanwhile, after Xiao Chiye’s elder brother wins a decisive battle, Xiao Chiye is sent to the capitol city as a sort of hostage to prevent any thoughts of rebellion in his elder brother’s mind (because the kingdom is reeling from the Shen incident). Xiao Chiye is the youngest son of another “prince” (governor) who is also a renowned general. He’s the second son, though, and his father, despite being a tough general, is a romantic who never remarried after his wife’s death. Xiao Chiye is very much like his father, but his elder brother is rather like his mother, yet still a formidable military strategist. You can see the parallels and contrasts. 

Anyways, Xiao Chiye hates being a glorified hostage and leaving his home, so when he sees Shen Zechuan, he blames him for his circumstances and kicks him hard enough to kill him. He survives, barely, but is left with lingering health issues from the kick and the torture. 

Five years pass, and then Shen Zechuan is finally freed from the temple he’s been confined in and ends up reluctantly working with Xiao Chiye to uncover several political plots. They have a one night stand, and then... feelings start developing even as the political situation gets more and more unstable. Xiao Chiye pretty quickly realizes Shen Zechuan is actually after 1) revenge, 2) proving his father was not a traitor, and 3) plans to rebel himself... 

It’s pretty antagonistic early on, but there’s a fascination between them and really good foiling (they’re opposites, yet similar; they’re yin and yang). Xiao Chiye is the more sentimental despite being the more traditionally “manly” one, and is the heart to Shen Zechuan’s mind. Shen Zechuan thinks all he has left is hatred, but Xiao Chiye reminds him that he’s human and that humanity comes with a full spectrum beyond just ‘hatred.’ Xiao Chiye likes challenges and taming wild animals, but he needs to actually tame himself. Shen Zechuan is, in meme-terms, dead inside, yet his greatest desire is to live. Xiao Chiye is full of life and vigor, yet he is much more cavalier about his life. Their dynamic is pretty great, going from tension and what’s basically hate sex to “oh how I love you so” and “he did not want this person to hurt anymore, ever again” in a way that feels more than natural. 

Thus far only about 2/3 are translated, but a new chapter is translated every 3 days, so you don't have to wait long. I also got spoilers from some very very helpful people who are able to read it in Chinese and took pity on me.

It's both tragic and a happy ending. The main pairing gets a happy ending, as does one of two side pairings (the wlw one--yes, there’s canon lesbians--gets a happy ending; the secondary mlm one sadly does not). Shen Zechuan and Xiao Chiye get a happy ending not just through life, but through accomplishing a lot of goals, family, etc. So it's happy.

Don't get attached to most other characters though, because the author is pretty brutal. And yet the characters are so likable it's hard not to. There's also an issue with... there are no real "enemies." Even most of the antagonists are genuinely not bad people, and there are two perpetual themes that come up: what is the cost of victory? and the idea of scapegoating. Sooo a lot of the antagonists are scapegoats and what happens to them isn’t “fair” even in a poetic sense. From what I've heard what happens to one of said antagonists at the end will Make Me Unhappy, but I've also heard it is indeed framed as tragic.

[morkleemelon]

nct ideal types 2021 :: 127

dream version | the confirmed facts are all from various interviews or fan questions but ‘my thoughts’ may well not be accurate! this is just for fun~ mark and haechan are in the dream version

moon taeil

confirmed: someone cute with a short bob hairstyle

my thoughts:

taeil is a super chill, laid back guy who gets along with more outgoing members like johnny and haechan. this makes me believe he’d want a funny, outgoing partner to balance with his personality

he mentioned cute so this makes me think small or petite. definitely shorter than him.

he said once that he would love to sing to his future girlfriend all the time (she will be so lucky oh my gosh). not to mention he is very passionate about music and dropped out of a prestigious music school to join nct. so he would definitely need someone who likes and appreciates music

he said if he were a girl, he’d date yuta out of all of the 127 members. so perhaps he just thinks yuta is boyfriend material, but maybe taeil is attracted to the strong-minded, caring type

seo johnny

confirmed: someone who smiles at him a lot. similar to girl’s generation’s yoona

my thoughts: 

johnny seems to get along with everyone so this is a bit tricky to try to determine. he confirmed he likes yoona so going off of that, she’s obviously gorgeous and has a beautiful smile. her personality is also elegant, but down to earth and funny

he was voted by everyone including himself as the most romantic member. he says that he hopes one day he can build christmas trees with his wife just like he used to do with his mom (I’m so soft). I think he’s looking for someone who likes sappy romance and will flirt back with him

he’s tall. and since he named yoona as his ideal type, I think he’d prefer a taller girl (but not taller than him). then again, I’m not sure if he’d care all too much 

he said he would date doyoung if he were a girl so I think that entails someone easily tease-able, neat, and proper

lee taeyong

confirmed: someone who can teach him, lead him, and make up for his flaws. a girl with long hair of any race. laid back. his ideal type is the same as ten’s. someone hard-working has a tough style. 

my thoughts:

he’s highkey a weeb (don’t deny this). no matter how charismatic he is on stage, we all know he’s a big softie who likes bugs and frogs and anime. he expressed he had a really hard time coming out of his shell and he’s quite introverted. he needs someone who’s strong-minded and knows what they’re doing

I remember when the rookies just came out in like 2014 and TY was 19 (?) ish and he confirmed that he’d never dated anyone yet. nobody believed him because he was so handsome but I have a feeling he was telling the truth. it’s been several years since then so I’m not sure how things have changed, but I have a feeling he would like someone experienced.

“any race” what a king. looks-wise besides having long hair, I can envision someone with great style. perhaps dyed hair, multiple piercings, tattoos, the works. fashion is something that tae really appreciates

nakamoto yuta

confirmed: a girl with short hair and is around 15 cm shorter than him (so about 160cm aka 5′3″). an empathetic, cute girl who doesn’t ‘act pretty’. someone bright and comfortable

my thoughts:

he has a lot of confirmed facts about looks which are also really specific. maybe he just knows what he wants. but I also thinks he has experience. it seems like he wants a tomboy who has a strong vibe

he likes being the ‘oppa’ and taking care of others like we see him do with winwin, mark, and jungwoo. he’d be into someone who looks up to him and who he can lead

I don’t have a reason but I think he would like someone who laughs a lot and laughs at his jokes (maybe because mark does and he loves mark)

someone who’s not embarrassed to be herself

during oshiete japan they had to pick out of 4 types of roses to gift to their ‘girlfriend’. him and haechan were the only ones who chose to give 3 roses to their ‘girlfriend’. the psychologist analyzed this and said that they’re ‘flirts who seek attention’. so that being said, I think yuta would like someone who gives him a lot of attention and reactions

kim doyoung

confirmed: someone polite and who treats their elders well

my thoughts:

I mean this in all seriousness, someone the exact opposite as haechan. while we can see in rare times that he does care for him, doyoung usually cannot stand haechan and all his tricks and taunting. as his confirmed type outlines, doie is really looking for someone who takes things seriously and listens to him well

I think he often feels underappreciated - a lot of times during his mv viewing reactions, the editors show another member during his part or just cut him out and you can tell he’s really disappointed (it hurts my heart). he would really like someone who goes out of their way to make him feel appreciated. 

when nct 127 went on oshiete japan, doyoung was the only one to pick the potted rose and the psychologist there said that it means he isn’t looking to just date around, but rather to settle down and have a stable relationship. I strongly believe that doyoung is looking for someone long-term.

also, his love language is giving gifts (from my observation since he often gifts the members foods during mv shoots and gifted TY the couple ring). my best guess is that he’d want to spoil his partner a lot with gifts to show his feelings. someone who appreciates his gifts and understands that they come from his heart

he thinks ariana grande is hot so that’s the only visual thing I can think of. she’s obviously very gorgeous but she’s petite and has an amazing voice

jung jaehyun

confirmed: a kind woman with long, straight hair who can communicate well with him. someone dependable, healthy, and into sports. someone usually calm but can be cute. doesn’t care if she’s older or younger. someone similar to him. someone like singer/actress IU. 

my thoughts: 

he has a lot of confirmed facts so I don’t have to make many assumptions here. someone with girl next door energy? 

he says he likes IU, so going with that, someone petite and cute. She’s not afraid to speak her mind and treats everyone with kindness.

I think J was born to be romantic (literally, born on valentines day). he said his previous ambition was to be a teen dad and his lines from make a wish english version “spoil her with loyalty” sum up my next prediction: he wants someone like a best friend who’s in it for the long run

dong sicheng

confirmed: someone with long, black hair

my thoughts:

he said his favorite actress is shu qi. although I don’t know if he just likes her acting or if she actually fits his ideal type, she is a traditional chinese beauty which I think winwin appreciates

he’s really introverted and is often overwhelmed by affection (i.e. all of the nct members). the exception is jaehyun and winwin seems to be the most comfortable around him. this makes me think he wants someone calm and chic

sicheng prefers staying inside to going out. not to diagnose him at all, but I reckon he can get socially anxious around large amounts of people. he’d like a partner who doesn’t overwhelm him and understands him

he really can’t cook (he couldn’t turn on a stove to make an egg on winformation). in the end, it wouldn’t matter, but i’m thinking that if you can cook you’d certainly earn some bonus points with him. it’s like that saying ‘the way to a man’s heart is through his stomach’.

kim jungwoo

confirmed: n/a

my thoughts: 

of all the members, I think jungwoo has expressed the least about his ideal type. not to make any unnecessary assumptions (but that’s all this post is really), but someone said he has strong bi energy. I can’t say anything because I’m not bi myself and I’m not him, but I can see this being a thing. take this with a grain of salt because I don’t actually have evidence

during oshiete japan, he was the only one to pick the large bouquet of roses to give to his ‘lover’. the psychologist analyzed this as him liking to pretend that he is in love and wanting to show his good side. he “can’t express his real feelings and doesn’t want to ever show his lame side to his lover”. because of this, I strongly feel that jungwoo would need someone who lifts his confidence and reassures him

the members he gets along with the most are probably yuta and mark. their personalities are quite different but based on their similarities, I think he is attracted to confidence, open-mindedness, and good work ethic.

[bookofmirth]

The english side of me REALLY jumped out with this one lol

Possessiveness, jealousy, and overprotectiveness are staples of the romance genre, especially when it comes to paranormal romances, so much so that it’s expected for people to overlook the problematic aspects of possessiveness, jealousy, and overprotectiveness because these concepts in the romance genre are meant to be viewed not only as hot and sexy, but indicators of love and showing that the person cares. Despite their tendency to fall in the yellow flag zone, these concepts are meant to further the romance itself. And when you begin to question these concepts as they appear in different romances, there’s almost always pushback with people saying the books are “just fiction”. But what happens when there’s evidence that shows why these three concepts aren’t always healthy or hot/sexy in a romantic pairing? What happens when the narrative is using these concepts to show how they can be detrimental to a character and those romantically associated with that character?

Possessiveness/Overprotectiveness

In romances, it’s always in the man’s nature to be possessive and overprotective. These two concepts are usually used to show that a character is protective of their partner and we see that happen with almost all of SJM’s endgame ships, but they’re almost always portrayed as good/healthy because of the equal partnership that is present in those relationships. Thinking about acotar, a relationship where possessiveness and overprotectiveness were depicted in a negative light was between Feyre and Tamlin. Their relationship was imbalance and Tamlin’s possessiveness/overprotectiveness of Feyre stood out in the barriers he placed on Feyre when they were together: not letting her leave the house/keeping her in the house; saying everything is for her “protection”; only letting her talk to Alis and Lucien/limiting her interactions with others; telling Lucien to back off from Feyre because Tamlin saw him as a threat and that she could fall for him instead; having Feyre be dependent on him by not teaching her how to fight/learn how to use her powers; controlling every aspect of Feyre’s life at the beginning of acomaf; among other things.

Males in acotar feel an intrinsic sense of entitlement to their mate and are described as being protective and possessive over their mates. When people say that A is exhibiting “mate behavior” towards E, obviously there is a positive connotation associated with that phrase because of how the males act around their mate. But the thing is A isn’t E’s mate. A’s possessiveness of E is treading on the waters of Tamlin-ville because: A speaks for E, which is oddly similar to what some of E’s stans do in fandom discussions (as if E herself reached out of the book to personally tell them things that no one else knows); he makes it known that E shouldn’t help with the Dread Trove, which is an example of A attempting to limit what E does; and he subtly expresses a sense of entitlement over E in the bonus chapter during his conversation with Rhys when he questions if the Cauldron was wrong in pairing E with Lucien. A’s “mate behavior” is completely different from Rhys and Cassian because Rhys and Cassian are canonically mated to Feyre and Nesta, which plays a role in how they act towards them. Also, neither of them attempt to limit what Feyre and Nesta do even if they worry about their safety. To say that A is exhibiting “mate behavior” towards E would have the same effect as saying Tamlin was exhibiting “mate behavior” towards Feyre. I think that the reason A’s actions towards E are described as mate-like is because thinking otherwise calls his actions into question. I assume some people aren’t ready for that conversation because he’s been portrayed as the sad bat boy in the fandom for so long that it’s probably hard for people to come to terms with this not being the case.

When people say A being overprotective of E is similar to Rhys and Cassian being overprotective of Feyre and Nesta, the comparison becomes incomparable because A is overprotective of E to the point where he goes against what E wants to do (E stating she wanted to help find the dread trove, a scene in which A was present and later A said E shouldn’t be exposed to its innate darkness), while Rhys and Cassian know Feyre and Nesta are capable of fending for themselves in dangerous situations. It’s just ironic that A’s overprotectiveness in this moment contradicts E’s “choice” of wanting to help, yet I don’t see that being mentioned in those “choice” arguments.

Jealousy

Jealousy in the romance genre is always meant to further the romance between the love interests and we see that happen with rowaelin and chaorene (and probably other SJM ships too). But when the jealousy and the romance are disconnected from each other, that’s meant to show something about the character who is jealous and what they’re jealous of. On the second page of the bonus chapter, it’s established that A is envious of Cassian and Rhys and that the reason he remained downstairs by the fire was so that he didn’t get swallowed up by his jealousy in his room. Then on the third page, it’s revealed that the reason he stayed by the door at Solstice was because “he couldn’t stand the sight of it, the scent of their mating bond, and needed to have the option of leaving if it became too much”. There is a blatant reimagining happening with A’s bonus chapter to make it seem as though his jealousy is romantically coded when the jealousy has nothing to do with his relationship with E and more to do with him. This reimagining has to be a case of people seeing what they want to see because I highly doubt people are out here failing literature class.

The Romance Genre & SJM

A and E’s interaction in the bonus chapter is frequently compared to Wings and Embers. The only similarity between these two chapters is the sexual undertones, which is part of the reason why I think people compare them in the first place because everything else (the structure of the chapters, their contents, and the amount of characters involved in them) is different. I think people are hiding behind the sexual undertones of the bonus chapter in hopes that it somehow overshadows not only the oddness of A’s interaction with E, but the ending of the bonus chapter as well. And even more than that, A giving away the necklace is compared to Cassian tossing Nesta’s present in the Sidra. Since A is able to give the necklace away that should tell you about the significance of the necklace’s connection to E herself (if A can easily give it away to the next person on the street) whereas Cassian regifting Nesta’s present would probably be meaningless to someone else because it was Nesta specific.

We know that acotar is more romance heavy compared to tog and cc so I can see why people lean more on the conventions of the romance genre as a basis for their arguments. And this is fueled by SJM saying this new trilogy will have one couple per book. However, the downfall of these arguments is that oftentimes the plot, narrative structure of this new trilogy in particular, and individual character progressions are secondary or afterthoughts to the romance they support. These arguments lack any real substance because acotar has proved time and time again that both the romance AND the plot work in tandem, going against the broad strokes of the romance genre formula where the romance is primarily in the spotlight.

Basically, why do you think A’s possessiveness, jealousy, and overprotectiveness of E is romanticized? Why do you think A and E’s dynamic is constantly compared to feysand and nessian? And why do you think people take issue with A being compared to Tamlin?

I think that the reason A’s actions towards E are described as mate-like is because thinking otherwise calls his actions into question.

THIS

I hate the whole discussion of "mate behavior" because the series doesn't even explain that very well. Rhys can't explain why people are mated, if it's for reproduction or being "equals" (in what sense, who knows), the courts all handle acceptance/rejection differently, the consequences of rejection are unclear and make it seem like the woman is beholden to accept on pain of... causing someone else pain.

I agree 100% that people (maybe unconsciously) try to ascribe "mate behavior" to Azriel in order to excuse what would ordinarily be inexcusable. He doesn't have some magical thing making him act this way. Neither did Tamlin, and we know how people view his behavior. And that's another thing with "mate behavior" and the bond. Why would Tamlin and Feyre not be mates, if all it took were these extreme possessive and protective behaviors? Why aren't Az and Mor mates?

And it's not even about Elain! Az acts like this with Mor, and we know there isn't a mating bond there. Azriel has zero reason to behave the way that he does, not in the same way that the mating bond gives Rhys and Cassian an "excuse", flimsy as it is, for the way that they act around Nesta and Feyre. Even that excuse is crap, because we have Rhys out here leaving Feyre's abusive ex alone, and then we have Lucien doing the same with Graysen. The definition of "mate behavior" that some of the fandom is working with... is sus.

The fact is that no matter how "overprotective" and possessive Rhys and Cassian were, they never prevented Nesta or Feyre from doing what they wanted. They might have gotten their hackles up, but then they backed off. Rhys sent Feyre into the Weaver's cottage. Nesta went to war. There is a balance between caring deeply and passionately for these women, and recognizing them as individuals whose autonomy should be respected.

The jealousy is 100% not about Elain. It's not about Elain being with Lucien. It's not about Mor, because we know that it's not really about Mor sleeping with Helion. Azriel has 99 problems, and 98.5 of them are about his childhood and his loneliness. The other 0.5 problem comes in the shape of a snowball.

The only similarity between these two chapters is the sexual undertones

You know I haven't done a full blown comparison between these chapters, but I'd agree. The entire Wings and Embers short was about Nesta and Cassian. There were no other characters and they learned a great deal about one another. What did Elain and Az learn about one another as people in the first third of his POV? Nothing. There was no tension between them other than sexual. Cassian thought Nesta's name over and over, thought about her as a person and her personality and how she made him feel. Azriel literally only thinks about fucking Elain. There is nothing wrong with fucking, obviously, but that's not love. (Maybe I should fully compare them idk.)

It's when we look at everything he doesn't say in conjunction with how he treats Elain and Mor in other scenarios... that's troubling. People can misread our 😬 at his behavior all they want, but the fact is that Az didn't have a single kind, original thought about who Elain is. His POV gave us zero extra insight into who Elain is as a person, which is... startling, if we are supposed to think that they know one another so incredibly well and have such intense feelings for each other. Why would we not get additional insight into her character? We get a lot of insight into Az's character for sure. But following his POV, if he loves and knows this woman so well, we should feel that. We should know why he loves her, what he knows about her, we should... just get some more damn insight into her character, if we are in the POV of someone who supposedly knows her so well!!!!

You know it's funny though, because the Az and Elain interaction in his POV mirrors when Nesta imagined a threesome with Az and Cassian. Close, and potentially pretty hot, but it never really happened because then it would mess up sjm's plans for the future.

Okay now to your ACTUAL questions haha and not just my reactions to what you said.

I agree that romanticizing Azriel's behaviors is the better option for people who ship it because otherwise the alternative is to accept them for what they are, which is not about Elain at all. Az has an even longer history of being all "mate behavior" on Mor, but no one thinks that's odd? I think that some people pick and choose their evidence, which is a big reason why I keep shoving Mor into these conversations. If the "mate behavior" argument was genuine and had a solid foundation, then the people making these claims would still ship moriel.

The whole thing with Az and Tamlin comparisons.... oh boy. I think there is a lot there.

I think that people don't want to see Az as anything less than perfect sad boi that Elain can fix with her love.

I think that people have a difficult time seeing emotional abuse IRL, to the point where even people who experience it directly struggle to come to terms with it, so why would we willingly embrace its presence in fiction? It also flirts with a lot of the ideas you mentioned being present in a lot of romance, though I'd argue a lot of those elements are becoming passé.

I think that Tamlin is Fandom Enemy Number One while Azriel is Self-insert Book Boyfriend Number One, and maybe people don't know how to reconcile those things. (This is quite literally true, I checked AO3 for reader fanfics and compared numbers between the bat boys, Az/reader fics win by a landslide.)

There also seems to be a refusal to see or accept nuance. I'm not even talking about moral complexity because I don't think that either Tamlin or Az intend to behave the way they do. They aren't villains. It just reminds me of people who somehow don't think Nesta was absolutely horrible through much of the series, even though a huge focus of her arc in acosf was coming to terms with how she had treated people. Anyway...

People see "gwynriel shipper" or "elucien 💕" in a bio and just dismiss arguments before trying to understand them

People try to justify their actions of their faves, which I understand!

People don't understand how subtle emotional abuse can be, and how there doesn't have to be clear intention.

I still plan on pulling out evidence from the book about times when their behaviors mirror one another. But it's like I've said for months - Tamlin is a cautionary tale. I don't think Azriel will go that far, but the foundation is there. The fact that acotar/acomaf was so, so explicit about how Tamlin's behavior was not okay, and yet people can see that same behavior in another character one book later and want to try to excuse it... sigh. Way to miss the point, fandom.

[izzielizzie]

Idk if you talk about tv shows much but I’d love your thoughts on the Saved By the Bell reboot, especially parallels between new characters and the old ones and where you think they’re going with romance

i love talking about shows!!!

old vs new group

Zack and Mac

If the names and incredibly accurate casting wasn't enough, their knack for getting themselves into trouble, setting up elaborate pranks, and falling fast and hard for random girls should be a really good indicator of the parallel. But, one thing that should be mentioned: there is a little bit of Kelly in Mac too, which makes him a little more endearing that Zack (who really is trash). Mac is a lot more family oriented than Zack was, and Kelly, being in a family of seven kids, understands the importance of good familial relationships, and we see Mac wanting to be closer to his father. He does all of this stuff just because he wants his father to see him for once. And that is all Kelly.

Lisa and Lexi

I mean this one is kind of obvious: obsessed with fashion and relationships. They're both popular and give good advice. But I think the biggest difference between them is that Lexi's intentions are purely selfish while Lisa generally did what was best for her friends. It's interesting how they get into similar scrapes, but there's the very clear difference in how they happen and what the results are. Lisa, who spent a ton of her father's money and then worked to pay it back, even though her friends offered her money, ended up happy while learning a lesson. But when Lexi tries to get Jamie to date her or tries to win the role of president, she gets out of her scrapes without learning anything. She's starting to learn and she's going to have a great arc, but Lisa was - mostly - selfless from the first episode.

Jessie and Daisy

Again, another very obvious comparison. Jessie was the overachieving class president who was best friends with the popular prankster. And, per Mac's proclamation in the second episode, Daisy is Mac's best friend. But what sets Jessie and Daisy apart is that Jessie was super vocal about everything she believed in, and was willing to upset people she cared about even if it hurt her (think of her will-they-won't-they with Slater where she accused him of being a sexist pig every other second). And Daisy is just as vocal, but she has an inherent understanding of when to step back and let other people figure things out. Like when she says that if she wants to do anything at Bayside, she had to stop trying to fix one guy. Jessie didn't take that route with Slater.

Kelly and Jamie

For all of their other incredible qualities, Kelly and Jamie were reduced to the good looking airheads of the group. Kelly was the object of many boys' affection, and Jamie is just as liked by the girls at Bayside. But they're also both insanely kind and willing to help their friends. Jamie was the only one from the Bayside trio to be genuinely saddened about the kids having to go back to Douglas because, like Kelly, he never really has ulterior motives. He's kind of just... misguided.

Slater and DeVante

I know that the show explored this parallel from the very beginning of the show with the whole football thing, but their similarities extend farther. Slater was lonely and a little jaded when he arrived at Bayside because he had been in fourteen schools due to his father being stationed in a lot of different places. His only friend was his chameleon that he was really attached to. And he used his insecurities to look tough and join different teams to create his own family, knowing very well that he may have to leave. And DeVante has a really hard home life, and he's had some past misdemeanor issues, but like Slater, he wants to change how people view him while also trying to become happier. Maybe he isn't ready for a family like group of friends, but he's trying.

Screech and Aisha

Screech got the short end of the stick a lot, but he was an incredibly kind and helpful person - he got Lisa out of a lot of scrapes even though she never showed any interest or kindness in return - but most importantly: he was unapologetically himself. He flaunted his ant farm and his interesting abilities, no matter how much Zack teased him. And Aisha is the same way. She wanted to play football without a helmet just so people would know they were losing to her. And she's kind too. She lends a shoulder to Daisy constantly, and she's respectful towards Lexi even though she kind of admitted to sabotaging Jamie and Aisha's relationship.

Romances

the triangle

The Aisha, Lexi, and Jamie love triangle is reminiscent to the Slater, Zack, and Kelly triangle, where two people are fighting for the affections of a third person that’s rather oblivious. Saved By the Bell is a big fan of the “best friends to lovers” trope, so Lexi and Jamie might be the most obvious choice for long term couple, but - and hear me out here - I think the ultimate couple will be Aisha and Jamie. Jamie is less prejudiced out of the three original Bayside kids, but he’s a little confused, especially because his mother shields him from so much. If the show can do it right, with Aisha’s prompting, Jamie can have an amazing arc where he steps away from his mother and other people that have controlled his life (like Lexi), learning that he’s enough as his own person, and Jessie can learn that her son will be okay on his own.

And Jamie can teach Aisha how to accept her feelings, especially since she admitted that she’s not the best at talking about/understanding her feelings.

Slater and Jessie

Ah yes, my personal favorite. Especially since Jessie stood up to Rene, it’s highly likely that Kelly will be sowing the seeds of the old relationship in the second season, and we go back to our regularly scheduled programing

also - can you guys tell I adore Jamie yet? - it would be great for Jamie to have a positive father figure, something he doesn’t have since Jessie did most of the raising. 

Mac and Daisy

I know their actors were surprised by this pairing, but Mac and Daisy are perfect. Before Slater asked Jessie to the prom, I shipped Jessie and Zack so hard because they had chemistry and they were friends. Mac and Daisy have the chemistry - and have had it since day one - but also they’re best friends who build each other up and learn from each other. The also appreciate and value each other. Mac tried to teach Daisy how to be rich to get what he wanted, but ultimately he pushed everyone to help her since he knew that she was doing the right thing. And Daisy accused him of not being able to do anything, but she apologizes because she understands that Mac is still working out his issues and most importantly - he’s trying.

And I know this part is self-fulfilling because I’m Latina, but I really want Mac learning about Daisy’s culture and understanding where she’s coming from. Also: Mac interacting with Daisy’s brother would be perfect.

[dramavixen]

Welcome to Chinese Internet Culture by your resident ABC, whose regular struggles on the Chinese webisphere have inspired this series of posts in which I share vocabulary, concepts, etc. that I discover along the way.

--

I’ve recently plunged back into the romance drama rabbit hole, which means hours spent watching the shows themselves and some more hours watching drama ship FMVs on B站 (bilibili). So the theme for today is shipping vocab!

– Basics

CP – originally abbreviated from the Japanese term “coupling,” CP refers to any pair that you view as a couple. It’s essentially the equivalent of “ship” (noun form) for English speakers.

CP粉 [CP fěn] – “couple fan.” Means someone who likes a pairing a lot, and in a fashion that implies they aren’t passionate about either of the people/characters involved as individuals – only when they’re together.

– “To Ship”

嗑 [kē] – this word’s everyday meaning is “to bite/eat.” In the context of the CP world, it’s the equivalent of our slang, “to ship.” To say that you ship a couple, you would combine the words 嗑CP [kē CP]. I couldn’t find a source on how this verb became the standard for shipping, but I interpret it as: if you enjoy shipping it enough, the act itself transforms into spiritual sustenance.

Likely, a very frequent situation you’ll encounter the usage of 嗑 [kē] in the wild would be within the acronym KSWL, which stands for 嗑死我了 [kē sǐ wǒ le]. The direct translation of this phrase lies somewhere along the lines of “shipping this is killing me,” as in seeing the CP together is overwhelming to the point that you’re effectively at death’s door.

The above descriptor __死我了 [__ sǐ wǒ le] (or just __死了 [__sǐ le], =“__to death” by itself, even without the first-person reference) is used in a lot of ordinary contexts. It’s similar to when we casually say “I’m dying,” but provides more emotional specificity.

Also common—though slightly less so than KSWL—is the phrase 嗑到了 [kē dào le]. This is a not-as-extreme version of KSWL and means that you’ve viewed an interaction that prompts you to think, yes. The two people I am looking at right now make a good couple. Abbreviated as KDL.

You’ll see some people use 磕 [kē] instead of 嗑 [kē] (the written difference between the two being the radical on the left of each character). This different 磕 [kē] means “to bump into” or “to knock.” A quick Baidu search will tell you that people use both, and the two characters have become interchangeable at this point. There���s no real consensus on whether one is more correct than another.

– Shipping Provisions

甜 [tián] – “sweet.” Everyone goes through the same turmoil of couples being so compatible that it gives us cavities. 甜 [tián] is, predictably, versatile in use and can be applied to the couple in general, the situation that they’re in, how they interact, etc.; anything that gives you a sugar high.

糖 [táng] – “sugar; candy.” How can something be sweet without a little sugar? 糖 [táng] means any interaction within a ship that shows their affection for one another. It typically follows a verb, such as 撒 [sā] (=“to spread”) or 发 [fā] (=“to give out”), which then means an intentional action by the couple or production team (if we’re talking about fictional characters) to make you like them more. For us on the receiving end, the preceding verb would be 吃 [chī] (=“to eat”).

Notable for 糖 [táng] is that negative connotations for it are on the rise. For example, sometimes people will say that a show is force-feeding them candy, which describes the phenomenon in which a drama really ups the focus on romance scenes: slow-mo, guy-saves-girl-from-being-hit-by-motorcycle, etc., even if the couple is lacking in chemistry. So sugar is not always a good thing, especially when there’s too much of it and no real context for it.

狗粮 [gǒu liáng] – “dog food.” Essentially the same meaning as 糖 [táng], but obviously has a less flattering connotation for those of us in the audience that are munching on it.

That’s all for today! As always, feel free to add/discuss anything. Hope you enjoyed!

[tiramisiyu]

Thoughts on Xia Yan’s Anniversary/Kiss Date

Not a translation, but rather an unleashing of the many thoughts I had for his date because it made me feel so many emotions and think so many things;;

Wordcount: 2.8k

Date Translation

Preamble

Tears of Themis’ 1st anniversary features one of the most significant in-story events you can view within an otome game - the confession event between MC and respective male leads. The gravity of this confession event, however, is intensified with respect to the ML Xia Yan, as their emotions towards each other is not the only focus of said confession - he must also reveal the heartbreaking truth that his life is likely to end in three years. 

In the below sections, I will discuss the significance of various components that comprise Xia Yan’s anniversary date. My primary focuses will be on Xia Yan’s internal struggles, his care for MC, and the nature of the confession, and I aim to ultimately express why this date had such a major effect on me and whoa if you’re still reading this rambling part, I applaud you. I’m really just doing a fancy thoughtdump here.

The Nature of the Confession Event

From the beginning, XY never intended for the confession to be full of pomp and circumstance - and this was out of concern for MC, fearing that she would be too swept up in emotion to make it. Based on how the other guys’ cards look (them being outside and MC’s all dressed up), I assume that there was some ceremony-like aspect to their respective confessions, and I think that this draws a stark contrast to XY’s (who staunchly refused Yang Xiao’s offer to help make his confession just as ceremonial). In XY’s, MC’s not dressed up the way she is for the others, and both have been drenched in rain and are dissolving into tears of sadness as they speak. In addition, their desires are conflicting (rather than a situation where both parties confess and get together, and thus have coinciding interests) - despite what XY has said before, he does not want MC to be with him, while MC wants the exact opposite. It’s not a beautiful or gorgeous scene by design - instead, it’s very raw, very 狼狈 as the two lay bare their own painful emotions, discuss/cry about heavy topics, and show very vulnerable sides to each other, trying to get through to the other person. 

Speaking of showing vulnerability, the fact that Xia Yan is so anguished by what he has to say that he has to sit down and cry hits particularly hard because he has always, always tried to put on a strong face in front of MC. Whenever his illness strikes and MC sees it, such as in aquarium date or Neruda poem date, he’ll smile and/or joke about it after. When the two were talking about his posthumous letters during the RRG date, he still had a calm smile on his face. Even when he talked about being shoved into a car trunk to be “disposed of”, he was still calmly smiling. As MC noted, his job has taught him to have extreme control over his emotions, so it’s almost overwhelming, trying to imagine how much sadness pushed him to that point.

Pathetic fallacy also plays a part in increasing the impact that the confession event had. In the days leading up to the last part of the date, storms keep striking suddenly, such that it’s even described as “strange”. Storms are, of course, generally associated with less-pleasant things, such as conflict, anger, depression, difficulty, and so on. The meaning behind why they appeared suddenly or frequently is a little harder to understand, but my assumption for the frequency of the storms (rather than an ongoing storm or gloom) reflects how things could not completely “clear up” (despite uplifts in emotion from time to time) until they confronted each other with their feelings. During the confrontation, not only is the storm still going on, but they’re also harshly drenched in the cold rainwater. It is only after the kiss, after their interests finally coincide, that the storm lifts and the beautiful starry sky casts its light on Xia Yan, who was holding the majority of the conflict/sadness/depression between the two of them. (This is also highlighted in how MC notes that Xia Yan feels slightly cold (during the kiss), and she tries to transfer her warmth over to him, trying to alleviate that heavy emotion that’s wrapped itself around him.) 

The Location

The attic of their old home remains an important location for these two, and I pretty much can’t think of a better choice to set the confession. It contains their childhood memories, and it also came into play during Xia Yan’s first birthday after his return (i.e. the idea of continuing to make memories there). It’s also interesting to note that Xia Yan, from his rational mindset, did not intend to see MC… yet he still came to this place - a place that was equally meaningful to both of them, and a place where he’s likely to get lost in emotion. He may be restraining his emotions for MC’s good, yet they still show in small places. (At least, there doesn’t seem to be any logical reason for him to be there, since he wasn’t setting anything up there…)

The Humanizing and Internal Conflict of Xia Yan

I call it “humanizing” because I’ve done some commenting before on how Xia Yan has felt a little superhuman - so many skills everywhere, and rarely a moment of weakness. Now, this date really drives home that he is just human too, with the harsh reality of imminent death hanging over him (especially since we also learn a few more concrete details on exactly what his illness is). This point is brought into attention when he talks about how he’s neither able to be as brave as Schumann (who acted based on emotion) nor as silently strong as Brahms (who acted based on reason). He’s pulled in so many directions for all the things he wants - a desire to stay by MC’s side and do so much with her, whether as family or as something more, versus his rational mindset that tells him to not see her at all, to disappear from her life after, or to push her away even after her confession. There was also his “rationally” created plan in which he would give her the letter and let her decide, yet he still tries to convince her to not be with him. 

The Schumann/Brahms comparison shows how he keeps getting pulled back and forth between reason and emotion. He reveals his feelings to MC (Schumann), but wants her to make the optimal decision, which he believes is to not be with him (Brahms). He then kisses her after hearing her conviction (Schumann) and then gives her the gift that’s linked to Brahms. In realizing that he’s not able to stick to either path, he calls himself a coward - but he doesn’t need to be like either person. As MC says, his restraint is a part of his own background, and his emotional wavering is because of his care for MC - all in all, his motivations are because he is Xia Yan, not Schumann or Brahms. 

Personal Story Chapter 2 Parallels

In Xia Yan’s personal chapter 2, Yang Xiao sets up the story of 零/Zero and 玛丽薇莎/Marivisa to mirror MC and Xia Yan (respectively). The mention of what will bring Zero and MC happiness is starkly similar in these two situations:

⊳ Personal Ch.2-9

Xia Yan: 因为...这样，零会更幸福... 她不是在牺牲，她只是用自己的方式让零能幸福。Because this way, Zero would be happier… She wasn’t sacrificing herself. She was only using her own methods to make Zero happy.

MC: 但零的幸福就是她啊。But Zero’s happiness is her.

Xia Yan: 她已经无法给零幸福了。 It’s already impossible for her to give Zero happiness.

⊳ Date

Xia Yan: 如果你选择别的男人。。。只要他能给你幸福。我只会带给你不幸，我没有时间了。。。If you choose another man… As long as he can make you happy. All I can bring you is unhappiness. I don’t have much time left…

MC: 你怎么可能带给我不幸，你怎么可能做不到给我幸福。你在我身边，你的存在本身，就是我的幸福。How is it possible that you can only bring me unhappiness? How is it impossible for you to bring me happiness? You being by my side – your very existence – is my happiness. 

Yes, the Zero/Marivisa story was intentionally made to parallel these two, so it might feel moot to compare them like this. However, I still really appreciated that they brought this discussion of what brings MC/Zero happiness back, especially since XY’s chapter 2 was very major in developing his character. Back then, MC is vehement in that Zero would have been happier spending all the time he could with Marivisa, as well as even having the choice to spend that time with her. I think that this part was instrumental in Xia Yan eventually deciding to tell her the truth and letting her make her own decision (as he explicitly stated to Yang Xiao in part 1 of the date). However, he still wasn’t fully convinced by what MC said back in chapter 2, so we satisfyingly see this discussion of happiness come full circle by the end of this date, when Xia Yan finally trusts MC to make the best decision for herself. 

Xia Yan’s Considerateness

Xia Yan’s enduring consideration for MC displays itself in nearly every single action within this date. 

The flashback, when he thinks about MC potentially having to go through what the widow is now experiencing, and how his own happiness for three years isn’t worth that

His conviction to give her the right to decide in this matter that involves both of them, because he can’t be the one to decide everything

He insisted on not making it a romantic event, because he wants MC to make the best decision without having a mind clouded by emotion. He’s also made peace with the idea of not being with MC, for the sake of her long-term happiness. All he wants is for her to know the truth of his feelings and illness.

His decision to still make MC a gift to retain some aspect of the romance in the confession (but he only gives the gift after MC has made her decision, again to ensure that her mind isn’t clouded). I think the concept of the gift is particularly beautiful - the little, happy holograms of them inside the glass, as if ensuring that he will always be by her side in some way; the music that brings back their childhood memories and alludes to an enduring, quiet, and protecting love that puts the recipient first (i.e. Brahms to Clara); and the rainbow, which has its childhood memories and treasure implications that are already mentioned in the date, but it also reminded me of the miraculous double rainbow in his Lost Gold date. That double rainbow was the trigger for Xia Yan to proactively seek out a future with MC, when he took the initiative to ask MC if she could be with him to seek out more miracles. Overall, there are a lot of beautiful memories and implications wrapped up in that music box/snowglobe. 

The little comical segment where he worries about the optimal time to deliver the letter, worrying about MC’s sleep or if she’ll be able to eat well.

His stress over what he should’ve done after the letter was delivered, and how he immediately answered MC’s call out of pure worry, despite being so resolute about not answering her calls that he’d turned on airplane mode before. 

Their ensuing discussion in part 3 is just full of Xia Yan’s consideration for MC at its peak - 

Rather than being ecstatic about MC’s confession, his first instinct is to tell her to take a few days to think about it logically. (But really, emotions aren’t logical to begin with, so it’s not like MC would’ve stopped liking you after mulling it over for a few days, haha)

His immediate apology after yelling that he has to mention his death

His worry about how MC will cope after he’s gone, going so far as to saying that she would be better off with another man 

I think that this particular (above) line got a particularly visceral reaction from Xia Yan fans, including myself. Because like MC, our initial thoughts fell along the lines of “How could I ever choose someone else when the only person I like is you? There’s just no way someone else could make me happier…”. Another reaction that I’ve seen among Xia Yan fans (yep, including myself) is how we originally viewed the story in third-person, seeing “MC” in the story, but this date (and this particular scene, where MC says nearly everything that I myself would want to say) dragged us into a first-person position. 

The heartbreaking scene where Xia Yan cries from being unable to give MC the happiness that he wants to give her (or so he thinks). 

He’s just so painfully selfless. I also really like the line during the kiss where MC tries to transmit her warmth to him, trying to balance things out between them and have him feel better, when he had already written himself off by thinking that his happiness is better off sacrificed for hers. 

Jin Xian’s Voice Acting

Jin Xian’s voice acting deserves a whole section to itself, because I think that he did an amazing job of portraying the intense emotions Xia Yan feels during the date. Just going to list some lines that really hit hard - both because of the content, and because of the voice acting that really considered how Xia Yan would be feeling then. 

我可以去追她，我甚至可以和她结婚。我可以把最后的三年过得很好，过的毫无遗憾，但是然后呢？她一个人要怎么办。。。谁陪她走出来，谁来照顾她。。。(“I could pursue her. I could even marry her. I could live my last three years happily, without the slightest of regrets. But what about after? How will she cope on her own… Who will be with her as she handles this? Who will take care of her…”) The ups and downs of this section’s voicing really hit hard.

The gentleness with which he speaks about what he plans to tell MC, especially the line 她从来都是这样 (“She’s always been like that.”)

He’s so cute in Part 2!! The tone’s a lot happier and relaxed and it’s really nice to see and hear. 

In part 3, the vehemence with which he talks about how the risks of MC’s work aren’t comparable to his established time limit, which then softens into something sadder when he talks about how Yang Xiao’s efforts haven’t extended his time by much. 

The intensity when he says 我必须说 ! (“I have to say it!”) (when MC reacts to him using the word “death”), and how he immediately softens his tone after. But then his voice starts to rise again as he worries for how MC will bear his death… and then he takes a break to calm down, and then makes the suggestion of MC finding another man with a near-inflectionless tone that gradually slips into a whisper

His whispering voice makes the impact of 我在乎。。。！(I care…!) hit even harder because it’s suddenly loud, and you can clearly hear the tears in his voice. Once again, he takes a breath to calm himself down and quiet his voice. But even as he keeps talking in a voice that descends into a whisper again, you can tell that he’s still on the verge of crying…

Also the 我也。。。好喜欢，最喜欢你. (I also… like you. I like you the most) line left me screaming with how it was whispered but really strong and adamant-sounding aaaaa

Anyways I could list more but at that point I might as well list Jin Xian’s entire script lmao. He did such a good job!!!!!! 

Sound Effects 

I’m laughing at myself for including this section - if you turn off the music that accompanies Xia Yan’s card, you’ll… hear some very interesting sound effects [狗头]

They’ve got to make the most of their limited time together, after all, and this is the only date out of the set of four that’s indoors… it makes sense…

Other Thoughts 

Two kisses!!

What sort of treatment would leave Xia Yan infected with drugs with prohibited components? What were they even trying to do? 

The date was short relative to the other, super-long Themis dates, but I’m personally alright with that because it places focus on the confession itself. It hit all the points that I personally was expecting for Xia Yan’s confession, including his past struggles with the idea of staying with MC, his confession about both his feelings and his illness, and how resolute MC is about staying with him vs. how hard he tries to get her to understand the implications of being him, considering that he doesn’t have much time left. 

I think now’s a good time for the two of them to get married if they’re well aware that Xia Yan’s time is limited, so Xia Yan, where’s the ruby ring? 

I wonder what implications this will have on the main story - e.g. will the rest of NXX find out about Xia Yan’s illness in Chapter 7.2? Or will they never know? Actually, I wonder if they’ll have MC be aware of his illness in the main story because… that implies his confession happened, which might anger fans of the other boys. 

Conclusion

I love Xia Yan and I love this date. 

[lokitvsource]

You came into the show with the idea of Loki clashing with the TVA already in place. How exactly does this kind of arrangement work at Marvel? Michael Waldron: There was a creative brief that was 20 pages or so that basically said: “We want to do something about Loki running up against the TVA. Here’s some different avenues that might be cool to explore.” It was really serving it up for writers as a jumping off point for us to put together our pitches. Then I went off and really worked on the idea of Loki being brought in to hunt another Loki, and that becoming the heart of the show, and the Loki/Sylvie relationship. The big thing that I did in my pitch — even as early as pitching it to Kevin [Feige] — I really walked through the six episodes, kind of similar to what they were. I knew I wanted Episode 3, for instance, to be a little bit of a Before Sunrise, with Loki and this character walking across this apocalyptic moon. But Marvel had the initial, probably the most important spark of genius, which was just Loki and the TVA.

Where did the idea of the variant being a female Loki come from? That was one of my ideas, that we then confirmed in the writers room. Yeah, we knew from the get-go that it was going to be Loki falling for another version of himself.

Why was that appealing to you? I love writing any romance; it’s fun. Especially, it hasn’t been done a ton in the MCU. There’s an obviously self-reflective quality to it. And a show that’s quite literally about self-love; it is Loki getting to see parts of himself. At the start of the show, he kind of hates himself. He assesses himself to Mobius as a villain. And then he meets Sylvie, and he sees her as someone on a heroic crusade. He sees the good in her, and is able to see the good in himself.

Mobius suggests that, of course, Loki fell in love with his own variant, because he’s a narcissist. Do you think he’d be capable of falling in love with someone who is not a version of himself? [Laughs] I don’t know if he didn’t fall in love with himself first. Maybe after that, but the first time he falls, maybe this is what it had to be.

What’s the key to telling a time travel story that takes advantage of the concept without confusing the audience? I think it’s doing a lot of work that the audience never sees. It’s really understanding the logic of this thing, building out the TVA as a real organization that actually exists in our minds. Our writers room, we had a TVA handbook, encyclopedia, what they do and why they do it, a glossary of terms. And then you want to only give the audience the absolute bare minimum to understand the story, and to just get swept up in the emotional stakes of everything. If the sci-fi of it all, if the time travel logic of this show did not hold up week to week, then that would have distracted from the emotional journeys of the characters. So I’m glad that even though everyone had to take their medicine a little bit, along with Loki, in episode one, I’m glad it didn’t distract from the story we were telling. And we had the benefit of Loki being the audience’s eyes in. The audience is learning as he is.

There’s a funny scene in Avengers: Endgame where the Avengers start arguing about exactly how time travel works in the MCU. How much did you have to study what other Marvel movies had done with the idea to make sure your rules were consistent? Fortunately, Endgame was the main one, and that’s how they understand it. The TVA is an organization that understands time travel on a deeper level, probably more comprehensively than the Avengers do in Endgame. We wanted to make sure we were staying true to any rules that they laid out, but sort of establishing our own rules. It’s a time travel show. What was I thinking? A movie’s one thing, but a show is hard.

How many Loki variants did you have on the writers room whiteboard at various points? Hundreds. So many different Lokis. There was one Loki, actually maybe it was a version of Mobius that took off his glasses, and he just had really tiny eagle eyes, like he could see everything. There was stuff like that all over the white board. Tom Kauffman, who wrote that fifth episode, he’s an amazing comedy writer, and was on the first three seasons of Rick and Morty. His first draft of that episode was just bananas.

Was there a variant, or a crazy idea in general, that you really loved but couldn’t ultimately do? There was so much different stuff that we wanted to do in the Void. But the truth is, I don’t want to say any of it, because you never know. The ideas that I want to do the most may pop up elsewhere.

Okay, so let’s stick with a variant we did see. Was Alligator Loki actually a Loki, or just an alligator that happened to be wearing a Loki’s crown? A magician can’t reveal his tricks, man. That’s the great debate. Let it rage.

What was Alligator Loki‘s origin story on your side of things? Who pitched him and how was that initially received? That was maybe my very first meeting with the producers at Marvel, Kevin Wright and Stephen Broussard, talking about the show, and me saying, “When we’re doing this, you can encounter lots of different Lokis. You could have an alligator Loki. Why? Cause he’s green.” And us all laughing about how stupid that was. I think I made the point that it’s that energy of what we can do with the show. We can have something like that, but let’s play it straight. Alligator Loki, you get a laugh out of it, but by and large you try and play it straight. That was the fun tonal balance that we tried to strike in the show.

There’s been some conflicting information out there about whether the big bad was originally just going to be He Who Remains, who’s a different comics character altogether from Kang, and whether the casting of Jonathan Majors changed the plan. From your point of view, what happened? The character was always written as a version of Kang, as early as the first draft of the script, we knew in the writers room, relatively early on. He Who Remains, that’s the guy behind the curtain with the TVA, and we saw an opportunity to fuse that mythology with the Immortus mythology. And that was just really compelling. It was a way to elevate, it just felt right for Loki, because Loki was there in the first Avengers, he’s the one who brought the Avengers together, and here is directly related to the exploding of the multiverse, this event that will drive the events of Phase Four. Certainly, when Jonathan came in, it allowed us to step on the gas of just how eccentric and charismatic this character could be. I was inspired in the writing of He Who Remains by Tom Cruise’s character in Magnolia, trying to give it that Frank TJ Mackey energy a little bit. He captures that and then elevates it to something else that’s different and weird.

You just said how important the multiverse is going to be to Phase Four of the MCU. How challenging is it to have to set up this big thing for the larger Marvel endeavor while also serving the needs of the particular story you’re telling on this show? It’s a challenge in the sense that it’s all a relay race, and you’ve got the baton on this thing, and you want to do a great job. The name of the game over at Marvel is with each movie or TV show, make it the best it can possibly be. And they’re really supportive of that, and trust that it will organically fit into the larger blueprint of everything. We were excited about introducing a version of Kang, because yeah, to introduce this new big bad was cool for our show. I was aware, and cautious, of the thing I read in your review, that it might not be the most sound storytelling to introduce a new character at the very end that we’ve never seen before as the big bad of this thing. Obviously, we had the benefit that people know who Kang is, and there’s a meta thing where a portion of the audience knows Jonathan Majors is going to be playing Kang in Phase Four. But the finale was only ever going to work if He Who Remains, in a compelling way, serviced the Loki and Sylvie emotional story. That was the most important job that that character did in the finale: he laid out a very compelling conflict that ultimately drove the two of them apart.

There has also been some confusion as to exactly when you knew that there would be a second season, as opposed to you just making a limited series. Initially, in the writers room, we were not operating as though there would be a second season. And the whole way through was, this should be a story that should stand on its own. I referenced The Leftovers and Mad Men all the time. I think about those seasons, they pushed the overall stories forward, but you can pull any one of those seasons and look at it on its own as an individual story. I wanted that to be the case here, whether we did a second season or not. I think we always felt that we would want to propel Loki forward into the MCU after the conclusion of our season. The only question was, would that be in an appearance in a movie, or would that be in a second season. And it was only over the course of development that the stars aligned to make a second season.

But that end scene, where Mobius no longer recognizes Loki and the TVA is filled with Kang statues, wouldn’t have been a satisfying conclusion to a limited series. That is an ending that only works if there’s going to be a second season. So there is another conclusion to the story that I wrote that exists out there, that I guess is just for me. My own little play, that I perform with my action figures.

What was Sylvie’s original plan, before Loki hijacked her to that dying moon? It was to empty out the TVA. The entire bombing of the Sacred Timeline was to create a diversion. She’s not going to be able to create a multiverse from doing that. Ultimately, the TVA has the manpower to get out and take care of these events, but they’re going to have to scramble a lot of their minutemen teams, and it leaves the Time-Keepers significantly less guarded than they would have been otherwise. That was her plan.

You didn’t come into this as a big comic book nerd. So was there someone on staff who could tell you, “Well, there’s this giant cloud called Alioth that eats time,” or, “Well, one time Thanos had a helicopter,” or maybe someone assigned to you by Marvel? I’m constantly reading the comics but trying to not be so beholden to the and do our own thing. I charged our writers assistant, Ryan Kohler, with, “You’ve got to become the authority on all things TVA, all things Kang, and all that.” So he and my assistant, Sophie Miller, became a support staff who read a ton of these comics and became a wealth of knowledge for the writers to turn to. And then the Marvel producers, obviously are very well versed in the comics. It was Kevin Wright who came in one day and was like somebody throwing down a blueprint in an asteroid movie, going, “Alioth! Look at this!” And we were like, “Ohmigod, this is perfect!” The best thing about working on these comic book shows is that if it’s from the comics, it doesn’t matter how much of a deus ex machina it is, it’s just cool, like, “I can’t believe you pulled that from the comics.” Alioth, that was a big breakthrough that unlocked the last two episodes for us.

That is not a famous comic book that introduces Alioth. It’s an obscure Nineties miniseries, with really ugly art. But you look at it and see what it could be. You say, “If we do this, and it feels like Twister, it’s going to be really cool.”

Was Mobius’ love of jet skis there simply to illustrate his character, or did you have a grander idea in mind? I will come clean: I’m a jet ski guy. I’ve spent a good amount of time on jet skis in my day. I used to tow a jet ski to a lake and ride it in college. So it probably was me. Loki, I was just becoming a steward of that character. Mobius was a character I really felt I got to create from nothing. There’s not really anything to that character in the comics. So bits and pieces of me found their way in. I just think there’s something so poignant — here Mobius is, a guy who is literally fighting to preserve all of time in the multiverse, and yet his interests are maybe the most humble, human, terrestrial, unremarkable thing you can think of. Just a jet ski. And when you’ve got Owen Wilson playing him and it’s just that much better.

Will you be back in some capacity for Season Two? [long pause] Time will tell.

‘Loki’ Head Writer Michael Waldron — and ‘Rick and Morty’ Alum — on MCU, ‘Heels’ and More