#i also do think a lot of people thought carmy would be 'fine' after he worked through his mikey grief

[chaoswillcalmusdown]

got ready for my re-watch with mum and this appeared on facebook and. yeah.

[outmakingmoonshine]

I was just writing a post about the Carmy/Faks scene & how it's really just Carmy talking to himself. For this scene the two Faks represent his inner voices/subconscious (which might only apply to this scene idk), but then I decided to see what all these scenes looked like together and wow am I glad I did!! Seeing these 4 scenes side by side is very interesting.

The first two scenes in 3x05 & 3x07 mirror each other, the last two scenes in 3x09 mirror each other and all 4 of them tell their own story together. The first scene is Carmy's talking to himself but shouting & aiming it at anyone who's listening. The 2nd is Syd talking to herself but mostly mumbling so only she can hear. In the Faks scene Carmy's having an "imaginary" conversation out loud with two people, just like Syd's doing in the last scene rehearsing what she might say to both Adam Shapiro and Carmy.

And if you rearrange these scenes & put the first 2 after the Faks scene, if we saw/heard those sarcastic "that makes sense" comments after we saw the "Claire is peace" scene in that exact same location, it would've been a lot easier to figure out what they're really referring to!

There are lots of layers to unpack here but I'm gonna talk about the main things that jump out at me. This is probably gonna be a bit chaotic with different ideas and breakdowns of what things could mean so I hope it's not too confusing. Anyone else feel free to jump in with your thoughts.

Below the cut

Notice how in all these scenes, except one, Carmy and Syd are alone talking out loud to themselves, vocalizing their inner thoughts. Mute the video and just read the subtitles if you need to. The scene with the Faks reads like a conversation with imaginary friends or like the two funny inner voices of a character in a comedy movie. All these scenes are like they're from a comedy movie tbh.

In the first two scenes Carmy & Syd act the same way they both deal with their problems (Carmy shouting about it to anyone who'll listen and Syd pissed but mostly keeping it quiet/to herself). They're the only ones actually inside the dumpster in all the scenes which makes me think it represents their minds and the boxes are the mental chaos & thoughts they're trying to sort through. The Faks are technically outside Carmy's mind/the dumpster so they don't speak from the mind or for the mind but they're close to it, communicating with it & "helping" sort through the chaos. Maybe the dumpster represents the conscious mind and the Faks are Carmy's subconscious. It sounds like The Faks are encouraging Carmy to fall back into his base programming, which people often tend to do when they're lost and don't know what to do. They're trying to convince him to call Claire bc Carmy's base programming from his family is "Claire is good". That's what safe to him bc it's a "truth" he's always known & believed. Idk there's many possibilities. It's also Interesting how later this episode The Faks go to Claire and speak directly for Carmy like they know for sure what he's thinking & feeling.

Lets get into the dialogue of the first two scenes:

"[Carmy] That makes sense. [box clatters] Boxes full of bullshit. Put it on the f*cking list. Oh, it's good. I'll do it. I got it. I got it."

Just a side note: The next line in the script is "I don't know wha-what I'm supposed to do with all this stuff" from Marcus in the next scene where he's clearing out all his mum's stuff with Syd.

"[Syd] 'Cause why would you do it? I mean, you're supposed to do it. This is-- This is fine. This is good. This makes sense. This is f*cking… F*ck. F*ck. [pants] [muttering] F*ck. [growls] fcking-- Where are the fcking Faks? F*ck!"

I don't even know where to start, there's so many ways to read this!

Carmy said one specific thing in the Faks scene that very clearly "didn't make sense"...Claire is peace. He knows that's not true but I think the point is he's been avoiding thinking about who his peace actually is all S3*. Carmy & Syd are both sarcastically saying "that makes sense" like it's subtly referring to that scene later in the same place. Was the panic attack scene by the same dumpsters? Idk someone let me know please.

*Carmy said in 3x07 he tries to avoid thinking about legacy. The only legacy we know of is the one he's trying to build with Syd both professionally and personally. His realization that Syd's brings him peace in the panic attack in 2x09 is the reality of his legacy that he's been trying to avoid all S3. He's working to get her his star and creating dishes inspired by her so Syd's cearly on his mind but the one thing he should be thinking about and talking to her about, he's avoiding.

There are many different layers of possible meaning and/or foreshadowing in this dialogue, but one layer it can be read is how they're both thinking/feeling about the Claire situation bc even tho Syd didn't mention it all season it's still there between them. Maybe none of this is about Claire, but if it was:

Carmy: "[sarcastically] that makes sense"...claire is "peace". "Boxes full of bullsh*t"...he's full of bullshit that Claire's his peace?!! Or maybe Claire is in the boxes of bullshit aka his baggage and past trauma he needs to sort through? "Put it on the "f*cking list"...put Claire on the list of his stress & baggage? And a very sarcastic "Oh it's good. I'll do it. I got it. I got it." He'll do what he's "supposed to do" with Claire & call her/apologize/maybe even be with her even tho it clearly sounds like he doesn't want to..?? He's "got it"...even though he clearly doesn't. "It's good" but she's clearly not The Good Thing™.

Syd: "Cause why wouldn't you do it? I mean you're supposed to do it"...why won't carmy just sort himself out? why wont he just call claire/be with claire since Syd thinks that's what he wants & she acts in front of him like "it's not her place to be [beside him on a personal level]" almost direct quote from her in 3x09. She's probabaly confused why Carm just wont be with Claire. From Syd's perspective he changed his mind about her and chose Claire in S2, so the next logical step is he'd be with Claire. "This is fine. This is good. This makes sense."...carmy saying claire is peace & also probably how she'll react out loud if carmy/claire get back together. "This is f*cking… F*ck. F*ck. [pants] [muttering] F*ck. [growls] fcking--"...this is how she really feels about the whole Claire situation & Carmy just ditching her & "changing shit" (that came up a lot this season), which ultimately led to him not treating her like a partner in their professional relationship. "Where are the fcking Faks? F*ck!"...a direct lead in to Carmy's scene in the exact same place 2 episodes later.

Sydney's dialogue in 3x07 scene also reads like a run-on of Carmy's dialogue in 3x05, continuing his thoughts trying to convince himself of what he should do with Claire but he's panicking so he calls for the Fak's, his imaginary friends/inner voices, who are there with him the next time we see him in that spot. From the dialogue it makes sense but idk if we've ever seen the show do that with Syd before so idk. Sydney is clearly definied as her own character but she is definied as a mirror of Carmy too so it's a possibility.

Of course this is all interpretation, some or none of this could be directly about Claire but idk. The location (esp if it's in the same place he had the 2x09 panic attack), all the "coincidental" dialogue, the way all these scenes tie together...and with the panic attack scene and the opposing realizations Carmy comes to about Syd & Claire in 2x09 & 3x09. It wasn't a "realization" about Claire in 3x09, he didn't even look like he believed what he was saying tbh. It looked like he just made it up on the spot.

It's also interesting that these scenes by the dumpsters are the quivalent of S1 & 2's walk in scenes where both Syd & Carmy go for a moment of peace to clear their thoughts and "cool off". We don't see those this season but we do get these which is more like them sorting out all the chaotic thoughts & feelings inside them, separating the "trash" from the good stuff, "the bad from the good" like Carmy said he wanted/needed to do to achieve his legacy in 3x07.

In the Faks scene listen to all the "we" and "us" talk;

"If we did it when it was scheduled. We do though. We do it, Carm. All we do is break down boxes. We break 'em down and we have to do it again. Who would wanna haunt us? Who's pissed at us? Sammy's pissed at us."

Until Claire is mentioned (a sobering thought for Carmy) and it's suddenly "Not us. Just you. Not us." Reality hit for a moment and the imaginary friends want to separate themselves from him because they're not "real" & they didn't upset Claire so she can't be mad at them. I think Carmy is the only "real" one in this scene. The Faks are the imaginary friends/inner voices that seem like they're helping the main character but they're really just causing more chaos and leading him down the wrong path because they're misunderstanding what he wants based on what he's forcing himself to think about; Claire. (I lowkey think Carmy's forcing memories of Claire to stop himself from thinking about Sydney.)

The transition of Carmy talking to himself with The Fak's representing two parts of his mind aka "two minds" going straight into Syd talking to herself & voicing out loud what she'd say to both Shapiro and Carmy like she's having a mental conversation with two different people and that she's in "two minds". "I wanted to start off by saying I'm grateful" sounds formal and directed at Adam Shapiro. "Ok so I wanted to talk to you..." sounds more personal and directed at Carmy. It's a similar concept of being in two minds used in a slightly different context but in this show and the writing specifically, context is all over the place anyway.

Also the transition into the Syd scene is to drive home the point that Carmy was just having a conversation with himself, trying to convince himself that Claire is peace, she's "good" etc. For this scene (and possibly this scene only) Theodore is the stubborn part of Carmy that doesn't like to be pushed around who thinks stuff like "Yeah but I'd see his ass" about Sammy Fak. And you know there's a part of Carmy that would have that attitude but the conscious part of him is smarter than that. Neil is the more sweet, anxious side of Carmy that is kind of "away with the fairies" a little bit, in his own head a lot. Carmy is the regular, conscious, "real" Carmy trying to figure out the mental mess he's in.

I think transitioning into that Syd scene was also to callback to the only other times Syd or Carmy spoke aloud to themselves. I might be forgetting something but I think all these scenes are the only times we see either of them have full conversations with themselves out loud in S3..? Someone let me know if that's wrong please.

Side note- From one perscpective: Carmy's reaction to Theodore calling Claire "a piece of ass" was so...unaffected??! Could you imagine if someone said that about Syd?? He bit Richie's head off for calling her "sweetheart" in 1x01 and physically put himself between them so I can't imagine he'd take it that lightly if it was about Syd...From another perpective, if this scene is all about Carmy's inner thoughts, is he asking himself if that's how he sees Claire? I don't think he does intentionally but it's a valid question considering the show seems to use physical intimacy as a substitute for any real connection between them. If Claire & Carmy never kissed or had sex, would anyone see that relationship as a romance?? I really don't think so tbh, the physical initmacy is the only thing about their scenes that confirms it's supposed to be seen as a romance. Meanwhile SydCarmy are drowning in real connection before any physical intimacy.

Anyone please feel free to jump in and add your thoughts, I'd love to know your perspectives on seeing all these scenes together @thoughtfulchaos773 @sydcarmyfan @yannaryartside @currymanganese @vacationship @afrofairysblog @greekyogurttragedy @tvfantic87 @moodyeucalyptus @gingergofastboatsmojito @ambeauty @whenmemorydies @brokenwinebox and anyone else who wants to jump in is welcome to.

[gingerylangylang1979]

Male identity: Carmy and Richie

I’m finding that a certain demographic of fans have a much harder time relating to Carmy but very much relate to Richie. Granted, a lot of this has to do with what fandom platform you observe. I actually kind of hate The Bear subreddit but continue to browse it periodically because it’s super interesting to hear what “the others” are talking about. I rarely engage anymore because it’s mostly nonsense and a totally different vibe than Tumblr. The contingent is definitely very anti-Carmy x Sydney and seems to hate Sydney. I’ve also noticed that while there is a lot of love for Carmy there is even more love for Richie. I’m very intrigued by this perspective. 

This season Richie was definitely a standout. I think Ebon is an amazing actor and am glad he is finally getting nominated for his role. I thought he got robbed with the non-Emmy nominations. But even before S2 I noticed that Richie was the most favored character among the Reddit demo and perhaps a big part of the general audience. That’s fine, people can favor who they like. I know that doesn’t represent everyone but I do think that speaks for what I consider general audience and makes sense considering how society still views manhood despite social progress. This season even a lot of the reviews were kind of meh about Carmy. I get it, I initially was writing him off too, was pissed, and thought he had the worst arc. Then once thoughts settled he went back to being my hero. Deeply flawed, but I just relate to him so much and he’s fascinating to watch. I’m a woman, so maybe that helps my empathy. I also don’t think The Bear would work with Richie as the lead as some have suggested. 

The thing is Carmy is a more difficult character because he has multiple layers of trauma, his work is so specialized and niche, he is a sensitive soul, he’s artistic, and he doesn’t fit the mold of the working class male models he was surrounded by. Your typical man can’t relate to him. And most likely your typical conservative leaning woman can’t either. At the Christmas party he was appalled at how the other guys were talking about Claire. And this is a woman he had a crush on and is present day attracted to. He could have easily been superficial and macho and laughed at the jokes as expected. He didn’t let Richie get away with calling Syd sweetheart. Richie says he’s “woke”. He employs a woman in a leadership role. He’s built different. 

He is struggling in many ways that are hidden and he also lashes out. The hidden ways and the lashing out are interpreted as whiny and annoying by people that can’t relate. He’s been cited as not growing but people can’t acknowledge that his healing won’t be linear. But how can it be when his trauma was collected in overlapping seasons for most of his life? The pain didn’t develop in a linear path. He had a stutter when he was young. There are hints that there is a learning issue of some sort (I’m not going to try and diagnose). He was always the “different” one in the family. The other guys call him “weird”. His father was absent. His mom has mental health issues and is an alcoholic. He witnessed the traumatic incident at Christmas and I’m sure it wasn’t the only such incident. His brother was an addict that pushed him away, then killed himself. He went into a chaotic, highly demanding field that required him to isolate to excel. He is shy and has trouble forming close bonds. He had a mentally abusive boss. He was always super competitive. He comes back to own The Beef and it’s problem after problem. How are people expecting him to be “fun” and have an easy comeback like Richie? 

Richie has issues, too. Stagnant in mid-life, spent years devoted to an addict, failed marriage, feeling disillusioned and displaced, also an absent father. But when we meet Richie he’s not as wounded as Carmy. Carmy is literally sleep cooking, almost starting fires, dissociating, having panic attacks. Richie is sad but it mostly manifests as him being kind of nasty and grumpy. He’s like a sour old man with dated and offensive jokes. His behavior is dismissed because he’s grieving. Which yes, he deserves a pass. But why does he deserve a bigger pass than Carmy who is dealing with so much more or Sydney who seemed to bear the biggest brunt of his outrage and was also struggling? Carmy is literally on the verge of a breakdown and has the weight of trying to keep the staff, the business, and himself afloat. Despite all this Richie gets a lot of indulgences for his bad behavior that Carmy isn’t. 

Richie is easier for a lot of people to digest because he’s funny, he’s the working class representative, he’s tall (yes people have height bias, especially with men). Carmy is viewed as the pompous prodigal son that’s trying to ruin Richie’s delicate ecosystem by gentrifying and kicking out “the working man”. There are people posting in disgust that he dare change The Beef despite it being a hell hole money pit. 

It’s just so interesting that in reality we are dealing with an unprecedented numbers of men who report extreme loneliness, depression, hopelessness. Richie and Carmy both fit that profile. Yet, a man like Richie is broadly understood and accepted and a man like Carmy isn’t. It goes back IMO to the continual coding of masculine/good vs feminine/bad. Richie is the stereotypical red blooded American male. He wants the stripper’s panties. He has a gun. He needs to be alpha. He views anything outside the norm as a threat. He wants to preserve tradition at all costs. Carmy is his foil. Carmy is viewed as feminine. 

I see it even on Tumblr with the persistent identification of Carmy as somehow feminine. Like he can’t be soft and traumatized and just be a man. So what does that say when even people who would probably consider themselves progressive still classify a man in feminine terms if he isn’t a MAN? We accept all types of gender identities but still struggle with a man not fitting the correct paradigm. Society still has issues accepting that men can be vulnerable and struggling without being feminized. People also make assumptions about Carmy’s gender identity and sexuality based on his trauma. Like, of course he has to be XYZ because well, look at him, he’s sad an pathetic. What does that say about men’s sexuality and identity? Are only queer men accepted as sad? Carmy could be a queer character, cool, representation matters. But I just find the semi-automatic equation of queerness with an atypical male to be odd and a bit regressive. 

Edited to add on above: I hope what I’m saying doesn’t get interpreted as dismissing queer people who identify with Carmy. I get it, I support it. What I’m speaking to is the insistence that canon Carmy is queer because of his interests, aesthetic, and mental health as if that is the only identity option. Granted, he could be bi. I also think some people are insistent on this, just as they are on Syd not being into men, as a way to negate the possibility of them being romantic. Again, I’m saying some people. Also, proximity and shared struggle doesn’t equal identity. This makes me think of once when a white gay male bestie claimed we are the same because I’m a black women. I had to kindly correct. We share the same haters, we are both marginalized, but he will never know my experience just like I will never know his. We can bond on the commonalities but we aren’t exactly the same. IMO, it would be a disservice to both of us to claim different.

I’m really rambling, but just thought I would share my thoughts and open a conversation about this. 

[eroticwound]

I love your thoughts on The Bear. Particularly the Berzatto siblings. I was wondering if you could talk about Mikey. And possibly his relationship with Richie. Outside of the internet when I talk to peers about the show people are quick to demonize or dislike Mikey. They cite his behavior with Lee and his taking part in ganging up on Carmy with Donna as reasons why. Also, how Richie was so desperate to get away from the beef.

I would love to hear your opinion about how this could be someone’s impression of Mikey. And how you would describe Mikey to someone who maybe isn’t seeing the whole picture? Or just how you would describe Mikey as a person in general.

And do you think his relationship with Richie was very one sided? Do you think it was always Mikey in the lead? I’ve read some fic that truly makes Mikey terrible to Richie.

Hi anon. Thanks for this incredibly thought out ask. Cannot emphasize enough how much I enjoy getting questions like this :)

Michael Berzatto is a complicated guy and he’s a guy we don’t get a lot of screen time with. That’s by design. He’s the character haunting this narrative. Mikey is the Laura Palmer of The Bear (I have that disease where I see everything through the prism of Twin Peaks), and as such we get to know him mostly through people’s grief. Through their imperfect memories. We’re left missing him just as much as any other character. And while I would love a feature length movie showing Mikey’s last days a la Fire Walk with Me, I very much doubt we will get that. So we’re left to figure out this complicated character with scraps.

For these reasons, I do get why people don't understand Mikey. As you mention, they are literally not given anything close to a whole picture. In fact the screen time we have most with him is during Fishes, when he is quite literally at his worst. If people only saw scenes where Carmen was yelling at people in the kitchen or where Richie was being sexist to Syd, I'm sure they'd have a poor opinion of them as well (in fact, being in this fandom after the first season, I can confirm that most of tumblr disliked Richie).

The healthiest we see Michael is in the Ceres flashback in season 1. He’s exactly how everyone describes him: loud, brash, funny. Both Carmy and Richie are just having the best time, completely immersed in the story he's telling. Even Nat’s having a great time, though both brothers stop her from adding raisins, which is Donna’s recipe for the dish they're making (side note, I find it so interesting that Nat is the one trying to follow their mom’s recipe. She's still trying to please Donna, to garner favor, whereas the boys, who Donna relies on in the kitchen and emotionally, feel fine deviating from Donna’s recipe). Even beyond the Ceres flashback, we do get flashes of what makes Mikey great in Fishes: the opening is him checking in on Natalie, he's really sweet and engaging with Carmen in the pantry, and even though Carmy doesn't take Mikey and Richie trying to set him up with Claire well, it's still proof that Mikey cares.

The thing is Mikey is mentally ill, like Donna and like Carmen. He’s dealing with some sort of chemical imbalance (depression or bipolar) on top of the severe parentification he got from Donna. I talk about it at length in my unfinished series delving into the partentification of the Berzatto siblings. As I point out in those posts, Mikey is actually the sibling getting the worst of the parentification, which is a form of abuse where there is a role-reversal between parent and child. Nat can't morph herself easily to accommodate Donna's dysfunction (she un-normalizes it), so she gets Donna's ire instead. Carmen was also parentified, especially when Mikey was out of the house growing up (they have such an age gap), but Mikey was the oldest. He has high EQ and can morph himself to accommodate Donna's dysfunction. It has in fact shaped him into the person he is. Which is someone who is trying to avoid all of the bad: bad outbursts from Donna, bad feelings from his siblings, bad reactions from outsiders to their family dynamic. He's also trying very hard to avoid the bad emotions he's feeling. Michael is looking to avoid all of this through any means necessary, which includes using alcohol and drugs. As I mention in that parentification meta series, using substances is quite literally the only way he's managing his distress.

I want to talk about each point you mention people citing as to why they don't like Michael. But first, I want to preface it by pointing out that Michael has been forced to move back in with Donna. His failed business ventures and poor mental health have forced him back into this scenario that is NOT GOOD FOR HIM. That scene where Cousin Michelle says to Carm that it's not good for him to be in this environment? Well, it's not good for any of the Berzatto siblings. And throughout the episode, you can tell how exhausted Mikey is by it. By having to fulfill his role as Donna's pseudo-partner.

So let's start with Michael and Donna ganging up on Carmen in the kitchen. When Donna and Mikey do this they are functioning as a parental unit. This is the perfect example of Mikey's parentification at work, of Michael acting as Donna's partner. It's what he's been trained to do to maintain the delicate ecosystem of that house. Donna's emotional state is given top priority. Everyone else's emotions fall to the wayside in light of what she's feeling, otherwise you get fallout like her crashing her car into the house. Mikey talks to Nat about this at the start of the episode:

What do you think she's at right now? A 4? A 5? She's not at a 6.

The siblings literally have a rating system for Donna's moods. They're all trying to avoid escalation above all else. Michael in particular. So in that scene with Carm in the kitchen, Mikey is trying to keep things from escalating. This is something Carmen knows too—hell, it's the first thing Carmen asks Mikey to do in Fishes:

Hey Mikey can you come inside and be you for a little bit, I don't know how to deal with these people.

Carmy needs Michael to come fill his role of buffer between guests and their family. Carmy, notably, gets Donna duty—a role I'm sure Mikey filled before Carmen came along. I say this based on Donna calling Carmen "Michael" when he's trying to coax her to the dinner table at the end of the episode. She's implying talking to her like this is what Michael does. When the people you know irl cite this moment, unfortunately this is the rebuttal: this is Mikey's role. Donna needs his emotional support. Otherwise she'd be more abusive towards Nat and Carm. Michael is doing it for the greater good.

As for Lee, that's another great example of soooo much being implied. Lee, along with Cicero, were best friends with their father, and it is heavily implied that Lee and Donna had a fling or two after their dad fucks off (whether Mr. Berzatto is dead or a deadbeat, who’s to say?). When Lee is helping Donna clean shit off the floor, Mikey grabs a beer from the fridge and asks if they are "doing this again." Basically, Lee and Donna have been romantic before. This means Lee would have been around erratically growing up. And it's clear Michael and Lee have a historic antagonism because of this. Lee's first interaction with Michael in the episode has him threatening to "lay [Michael] out." This screams to me that Lee stepped into the man of the house role, and that Mikey and him had altercations that got physically violent. That's why Mikey says at the dinner table, "I can throw forks cuz this is my father's house." That feels very much like something a kid would say to a man who is trying to replace a missing father. And it's especially heated, because it is Michael who has had to consistently step into the man of the house role for Donna and for his siblings! Michael couldn't leave like Lee when Donna and him broke up. Living with Donna and keeping his siblings ok is daily life for Michael.

So all through the episode, Lee is poking a bear (Mikey Bear to be exact). Lee calls him out about telling the same old stories, embarrasses him in front of everyone by revealing he's borrowed money from Cicero and had to move back in with Donna. Lee has been explicitly disrespecting him. And maybe if Mikey was in a better place, he would have been able to roll with it, but as I mentioned before, Mikey is not in a good place. He's depressed, he's been drinking and taking something (pain pills?) to manage the stress he's under. Him throwing forks is not a lucid reaction. Frankly, if people don't also blame Lee for that outburst, then they really weren't paying attention during the episode.

Finally, onto the Richie portion of your question. Richie’s family is something I would *love* to get more canon info about. All we know is that he's not Italian but Polish, his home life wasn’t great, his dad sucked, and Donna allowed him over so often that he’s practically her fourth child.

Richie and Michael grew up together. They're best friends, practically family. It's why Richie is "cousin." Michael's relationship with Richie is his closest relationship. Everyone says Mikey was their best friend, but Mikey's actual best friend was Richie. Period. And there's some complicated jealousy between Carmen and Richie because of what each is to Michael: Carmy's jealous of Richie and Michael's genuine closeness, and Richie is jealous that Mikey has special regard for Carmen as his actual brother. You see this jealousy in the very first episode of the show during that first walk-in fight: Richie was there for Mikey, buried Mikey and took care of Donna, and yet Mikey left the restaurant to Carmen. Left the money in cans for Carmen, so he could fulfill their dream restaurant together. There's honestly some great fic out there that goes into this jealousy. I'll come back to link it if I can find it.

Bottom line is that Richie was the closest person in Mikey's life. They have the same humor, the same life experiences. They had each other's backs. So when you ask if Richie and Michael's relationship was one-sided, I'm going to answer with a resounding no. They're literally besties. It's just by Fishes, Michael has deteriorated. His depression and drug abuse and failures have shrunk his life. Just compare where they're both at: Michael's moved back in with his mom, is single, and is telling the same old stories from their youth. Richie, on the other hand, might have anxiety (the xanax from Dogs <3), but he's in a stable and loving relationship and has a child on the way. That's why Richie asks Cicero for a job—not to get away from Mikey, but to make more money for his expanding family. And yes, he wants to amount to something more than working at a sandwich shop, but hell, so does Mikey. Neither of them want that for the rest of their lives. It's why Michael tried other business ventures. They fail, so he's stuck at The Beef. But it's a weight around his neck bringing him down. He says as much to Carmen when they're in the pantry:

Yeah but the place is no good, Carmy. It's a fucking nightmare. Like trust me I'm doing you a favor.

He even tries to set it on fire for the insurance money! Only Carmen sees the potential.

As for whether it was always Mikey taking the lead, I do think there's some merit to that. Mikey is talked about as more charming than Richie. You see it in Ceres when the edit compares Mikey telling the Bill Murray story to Richie telling the Bill Murray story to his date. Mikey is loud and funny and can "dial a room." Richie can too, but I think Mikey has more finesse. Still, they rely on each other. They back each other up. Michael would hook people with the stories, and Richie would embellish and inject at the right points or reel Mikey in when needed. They supported each other and worked together. I think any fic you might be reading that's demonizing Michael isn't accurate to his character and is actually falling into a pretty common fic trope: if the focus is Character A, then a fic author will cast Character B as the villain in order to serve whatever they're writing, twisting and embellishing the traits of Character B until they’re barely recognizable. Could Mikey be dismissive and hard to contain? Sure, but I don't think that means he didn't love Richie, or was undemonstrative with his affections. Even when Michael was out of it on drugs, they still had a very close relationship—Richie says so. In fact, everything Richie says about Michael supports this. I see zero support in canon for their relationship being one-sided. I'll say it again, they loved each other.

So this is how I would describe Mikey: loud, funny, obnoxious. He could dial a room. He cared deeply for his family, friends, and employees. He suffered parentification and has some sort of chemical imbalance. In fact, because he was charming and loud and funny, people could ignore his deterioration. Even Richie says, "he was Mikey Bear! I thought he'd come out of it," because he was able to come out of it up to that point. But after decades of not treating the problem, the only solution Michael could see was killing himself. He's a complicated character. He's a tragic character. He's the Laura Palmer of The Bear.

[spywhitney]

Thoughts on ships in The Bear

Sydcarmy (Sydney x Carmy)

I filtered out the tag weeks ago and I haven't undone it yet 💀.

98% of posts on my page in the last 6 months or so is to do with this ship- I've had a lot of thoughts about it.

S3 soured my opinion on it, and I've seen some eyebrow raising opinions emerge after s3 that are kind of wild, but sobering I guess?

But unfortunately I've hyperfixated on this ship now so I won't let go until it's over. So yikes for me I guess.

Like I've invested so much attention to it and the odds are looking terrible, but I hope it works out anyway?!?!

Sydrichie (Sydney x Richie)

It's the older man/younger woman trope. That's all it takes for me lol.

I read these fics when I'm tired of the above ship lowkey.

Their dynamic is so interesting to me.

If there weren't so many ****** **** ball sucking/suit licking on Richie while simultaneously trashing on Syd I'd like it a lot more (probably).

I was going to say how Richie treated Syd in s1 is what turns me off too, but I ship Syd with Carmen so, welp.

If they got together it would piss so many people off. Like the hater in me is cry-laughing thinking about how upset certain people would be lmao.

Wish we saw more of them in s3, it would've made so much sense too.

Sydmarcus (Sydney x Marcus)

Um, are the sydmarcus shippers even alive?

Y'all were done dirty. Y'all didn't deserve that man.

I never got the impression Syd liked Marcus however, but still.

If she did, they would've been so cute, like omg.

Marcus has had Syd's back the most and is arguably the only friend she has.

He treats her like a friend/overtly asked her out as more than a friend too etc etc.

The fact Syd didn't even acknowledge the fact Marcus made a dessert and named it after her is wild though.

Their dynamic has a healthy balance of reciprocation, exercised respect and care.

Obviously there are some that insist they should('ve) got together because they don't want sydcarmy which is ridiculous.

Then there's the "Syd deserves better" crowd which while I understand and somewhat agree, I also believe people choose what they deserve, so that's her business lowkey.

Saying all that I'd be all over Marcus. He's passionate, fine as hell and he's super chill?! Already climbing that man personally.

Claircarmy (Claire x Carmy)

I don't care about Claire, so it's hard to care about the relationship.

As much as the Claire hate is entertaining to me (and very valid points have been made about her), I'm pretty neutral on her for the most part.

I will say, the fact that their relationship has been shown to be perfect up until the s2 finale and Carmy calling her a waste of time was all it took for her to walk away is hilarious.

Like, if you can't deal with Carmy saying one mean thing about you, you're not ready to be with him girl lol (especially when compared with--)

The show pushes this a lot so if they're endgame fine, I just want that plot point to be done my goodness.

Carmrich (Carmy x Richie)

I've read a couple of fics and woah?

I like this quite a bit.

Their dynamic is so engaging in the fics I've read.

I almost feel like I don't appreciate their relationship enough in the show.

Sydluca (Sydney x Luca)

Kind of yummy if it was endgame, eh if otherwise.

I'm being dramatic, see my post here for more context.

The actor is british so maybe my bias is showing with this ship ngl.

He's one of the few actors I recognised also.

They look kind of cute, or whatever.

Fak x Richie

They have moments for sure.

I get it.

Marcus x Luca

I never saw this honestly.

To me, it was feel-good to just see a black man eagerly learning in a healthy environment.

I want Marcus for me though, like I said so lol.

Nat x Pete

They're canon.

They go well together, though I will say I don't have a strong opinion on them.

I guess since we don't see any significant conflict with them/they're very stable there's not a lot of emotional weight?

Nat x Richie

I felt some vibes here and there, you know?

They're sweet.

Richie x Jess

It would make sense as a part of Richie's arc.

Funny how some people that ship them based on a couple of looks hate sydcarmy with 3 seasons worth of interactions though.

Michael x Richie

I feel like I'd like this like camrich, but also it might break my heart, so idk if I want to see what's up.

Marcus x Chester

Chester was chill, shame he only got two seconds in s3.

Knowing Marcus had someone outside the restaurant who's supportive was comforting.

Tina x David

They were adorable in "napkins".

Makes sense they're married irl.

Tina x Michael

Felt a vibe for a split second when she talked about him in s1 ngl.

If she didn't have a husband atp--

Sydney x Claire

I think I saw a fic with this on ao3. Don't care about Claire, so you know.

Richie x Tiff

Clearly there's still love there, shame with what happened to them.

Carmy x Luca

I don't see why not.

Carmy x Chef David

😳 I mean, I get the appeal but in the context of the show, yikes. (Not that I haven't shipping something "worse").

[devisrina]

Another comparison between Sydney and Claire - The Meet Cute

Credits to: @velvetimbre for this post

We all know the infamous speculation about whether Sydney lied about eating at The Beef or not. What is found even more hilarious is the fact that we're speculating that Claire planned her grocery store encounter with Carmy.

This is unhinged. Like, truly mind-boggling.

Because, the biggest hint that we ever got to Sydney lying was in episode 8, aka the season 1 finale, when she reveals to Marcus that she didn't eat out a lot.

Similarly, we find out in episode 10 aka the season 2 finale Claire has always had this huge crush on Carmy. Meaning that there could be a decent enough chance that she planned the encounter.

It's just the way that these fan theories directly have similarities about how deliberate the planning was while also working as juxtapositions as their reasons were different.

Sydney, while yes, could hold attraction to him, was more on the professional side for her career. Carmy is the best chef in the country and she strives to learn a lot from him to improve her skill. I also want to add that while I think she was planning to talk to him about his career, I feel like she isn't necessarily holding onto that question. I feel like she would have been fine with waiting to ask him at a later day. But because he's the one who is asking her more about herself, she decides to return it by asking about what he's doing there.

It's also really sweet that she asks him before to clarify if it's okay, to ask him a question. This might allude to her thinking that it was a touchy subject, so she made sure to ask first if it was okay. And it's so sweet, especially since we know Carmy, we know he's shy. He runs along with people always telling him what to do or say, and even though this is little detail, it's nice that she gives him a choice with this.

Throughout the show, he's more of the person who kind of breaks down her walls a bit and wants to get to know her on a more personal level. And she begins to feel more comfortable with this and is really glad to have him as a maybe friend.

With Claire, (this isn't meant to be taken in the wrong way) her motive came from wanting to pursue a relationship with him. It begins with some small talk that feels natural but then starts to feel a bit rehearsed when she says "Cause you're the bear, and I remember you." And she segways their earlier banter as a way to get his number.

Her actions and body language are purposely flirty. The way that her voice is when she talks to him, she wants to mesmerise him with her actions. Specifically after he gives her his 'number' she looks back up with her wide eyes and slightly says "Kay."

I also remember thinking when I saw their meet-cute and how Claire/Molly was acting out her lines, how it felt like she was reading off a script for an audition tape. (Molly is a talented actress in Shiva Baby, Good Boys, Broken hearts Gallery and Booksmart, so watching this scene felt off). But then it hit me. It was meant to be that way. Claire essentially rehearsed her lines to come off confident and cool when she finally got a chance to see Carmy.

Like, I feel like she would look way more shocked, nervous and stumbling over her words and sentences if that was the first time she saw him.

Even the most confident person feels so jittery over seeing their long-term crush. She seemed like she planned what to say to him before she saw him again. Even if it had not been that specific day that she thought she would see him, she probably has walked around here and there in hopes that she would see him again.

[readingwiththereids]

yanda! speaks: hi my loves! here’s the new chapter, it continues immediately after the last one. i’m trying really hard to keep up with my half-assed posting schedule but i might not be able to get you chapter 4 by tomorrow :( [i really think you’ll like it though!] don’t forget to like and reblog! lots of love and light 🤎

masterlist

night rain ; chapter 3

2022

The air stood still as both of them waited for the other to speak. Silence had never really been an issue for them before, or at least never awkward. Of course, there were those occasional stillnesses that swept over their apartment after a fight or the comfortable silence where they could simply just exist in one another’s presence. Surprisingly, those kinds of silences were actually when they felt closest.

This one however was not like that. This one sat its weight on their chests as they slowly realised the reason for it was the fact that they simply no longer knew what to say to one another. They no longer knew what the other was thinking at that moment. Sure, they had an idea but there was no way to accurately tie that knowledge from years ago to who they were now. The same but with different everything. Wounds, thoughts, hearts. While Camila’s heart had only become fuller following the birth of her daughter, Carmen’s only continued to be slashed at more and more.

“So, uh, how are you?” Carmy said, clearing his throat.

“I’m okay. How are- How is everything?” Cam replied awkwardly.

“Good, good.”

A pause.

“Listen Carm, I’m really sorry about Michael, he-”

“Was an addict. It’s fine, I’m fine.” he interrupted.

“Carmy.”

He took a deep breath and let out a sigh, staring down and picking at his nails. 

“It’s-I don’t know how to-” he tried to explain before giving up completely.

“That’s okay.” Camila smiled reassuringly, prompting him to finally look up at her as a smile began to tug at the corners of his mouth. “I really mi-”

Carmen had begun to speak before being interrupted by the sound of the front door opening.

“Hey, Carm. So, I couldn’t find my flat-head so I’m just gonna have to use your spatula again.” 

Fak’s voice instantly brought a smile to Camila’s face as she turned to look at him, having always had the best relationship with him out of all of the people in her and Carmen’s life together. The screwdriver in his hand dropped to the floor once he recognised the girl’s face in front of him before rushing to give her an excessively tight hug. 

“Cam! Oh my God, I missed you so much!” he practically squealed before pulling back and gasping. “Wait. Are you two back together?”

[Oh no no no, Fak-]

[Oh, I’m so happy for you!]

[Honey, no! Don’t-] 

[What do you mean “no”? Why’d you say it like that?]

[What do you mean “Why’d I say it like that”? I’m just trying to clear up his confusion, Carmen.] 

[Right.]

[“Right.”]

Carmy took a slight offence to Camila’s tone and mocking of his words but soon noticed the slight smirk sitting on her plump lips which was immediately reflected on his own, causing the two to erupt in soft chuckles as Neil’s eyes bounced excitedly between the pair because for a moment they felt like the old Cam&Carm that he’d dubbed his honorary parental figures.

“I should go, I have a meeting soon.” Camila smiled as she slowly shuffled towards the door.

“Oh right, we heard you’re up at La Fame now. Marketing right?” Carmen asked.

“Yeah, I mean you’d think it would be demanding but I have a scary amount of free time so I’m also working at that bakery in Logan Square at their pâtissier, part-time if you guys wanna pass by. Using that degree, you know.” she rambled before finally shouting a bye and racing out the door.

After she’d left, the two men simply stood for an embarrassingly long time, staring at the space that her figure once occupied.

“Man, she still smells like summer rain and pine needles.”

“Fak, what the hell is wrong with you?”

🏷️ list: @rexorangecouny @louderfortheback @janoskiansecondsofdirection @thatonedogwithablog

[ladespeinada]

having finished watching the bear in the early hours of the morning, i have some thoughts rattling around in my head that i need to jot down because they keep distracting me from work, lmao. spoilers under the cut 

→ i had fun! it was emotional! it was stressful! i was entertained and then i had to suppress the feelings of familial relatability brought up in ep. 6!  → MARCUS!!! TINA!!! NAT!!! EBRA!!! RICHIEEEEEEE!!!!! All going through their own shit, changing, emotional, relentless, scared, nervous. I especially loved Richie this season and he had a speech in ep. 1 that broke my heart ("I'm 45, I've been here a long time, you feel me? I mean, you know what the fuck you're doing, you know. You love all this shit. It's fun for you. I don't have that. I'm afraid imma wake up and you guys are all just gonna cut—just drop this ass.")

→ Sydney, light of my life. Her fierce ambition, so obvious and strong in S1, got tempered by doubt and distrust in her partner, by the gradual recognition that she is doing so much, too much, by herself. I don’t think it bodes well that the last shots we get of her, she’s ralphing after opening night service—after an intense kitchen set-up that tests her limits and shows who she can and cannot trust. (Giving Carmy in NY, throwing up before service vibes). And honestly? I wouldn't be mad if she really, really starts doubting her partnership with Carmy and just dips. 

→ Anyway, I came back to add that Sydney, despite her doubts and not-unfounded fears, is such a positive source for those around her. We saw it in S1, when she gave Marcus a confidence boost, when Tina sought her approval after initially being very hesitant about her. And that faith in others just increased in this season, and god, to be around someone like that, who lifts others up no matter what, is so rare. I love her so much. (And her carrying around that book the whole season! Just holding onto courage and confidence, letting it shape her leadership.) 

→ I'm so happy Natalie wasn’t relegated to glimpses this time around. She's present and focused and involved in dismantling her family’s trauma and history, and I love that for her. I also love her and Syd's relationship (them almost being synchronised in saying Carmy Problem) and her interactions with Fak, lmao. 

→ Tina at culinary school! Tina with reservations about her place but thriving and finding inspiration. There's a moment where some of the people in her class all go out, and they invite her, and when she meets them at the bar, they've all got a nasty judgemental face (it's def an age thing) but then she EATS THEM UP at karaoke with a beautiful song in English & Spanish, TINA TE ADORO. 

→ I immediately re-watched Marcus's episode and I want a spin-off series where he stages at different world-renowned bakeries and lives his best patissier life. 

→ That Variety piece that said Carmy was the least interesting character in this show was RIGHT ("It’s no coincidence that these weaker points tend to involve Carmy, a character perfectly rendered by White who’s still the least interesting part of his own show.") 

→ Speaking of: the romance between Carmy and Claire (which we all unfortunately saw happening after the trailer, and is fucking annoying, and yes part of it is because I love Syd & Carmy together, but also because the showrunners pledged no romance in the show which would have been fine, too) is BORING. So boring. I know Claire is going to get a lot of hate and honestly, it's barely fair because she's just not developed as a character at all. Beyond being someone Carmy knew in his past, and who is now stealing his time and energy away from the restaurant, there's not much to her. She's written with so little dimension, and exists purely to be Carmy's lil girlfriend and it's disappointing. She could have at least been fucking interesting. 

→ Carmy's so angry around the time of the opening, and he projects it onto everyone else, and it's really his own fault that he's not aware of what's happening in the restaurant.  → Okay so another thing—Sydney talks about how much she wants a Michelin star, how it’ll make The Bear a true destination spot. And rudely, Carmy goes, “you really want one of these bullshit stars?” to which Syd says yes, I really do, and this fucking dickhead tells her: “you’re gonna to have to care about everything, more than anything” AND HE STILL LET HER DOWN!!!!!!!! The more I think about it, the more upset I get. 

→ Also, Michael doesn't haunt the narrative the way he did last season—his presence is so faint. There's moments, of course, but it just feels like something is missing or off. I had expected some sort of sentiment to come to the surface towards the end of the season at least, some sense of acknowledgement that maybe he would have loved The Bear, or hated it, or something, from literally anyone—Carmy, Nat, Richie, someone—but nope, nothing besides the cannoli.

→ Episode 6, man. Episode fucking six. Natalie Berzatto, you deserve peace. 

→ Anyway, overall there’s a sort of bite missing in this season. The looming threat of Cicero has been softened a lot and yes, obviously internal workings at The Bear are the new obstacles but it doesn’t feel quite the same. Maybe it's a lack of tension, or a lack of anxiety? I don't know how else to explain it.

[bornforastorm]

my thoughts aaaaarrreeee richie has deeply unresolved issues about his sexuality but definitely had feelings for michael he now doesn’t know what to do with. Fak totally sees through his bluster (“he’s just, he’s sad inside”) and Richie doesn’t like being seen like that but also it IS gay AND warming up to Fak is warming up to being comfortable with himself without all the showy heteronormativity he’s put on for so long. richie is an asshole partially because that’s who he is and i think partially because he’s faking a LOT about who he is!! he’s very sensitive actually but refuses to be seen that way— and when Fak does see him that way he’s like cool Fuck YOU fuck off!! Like I get the sense Richie and Tiff actually got that divorce after Michael’s suicide (so sooo recently actually) and probably partially because he can’t handle his emotions in a healthy productive way. He SHOVES people away (an issue many characters on The Bear have) instead of being in any way soft or emotionally vulnerable. Like it is sooo hard for him to admit to Carmy that he fucked up with Michael and that he regrets it. It’s a HUGE step that when Fak tells him he looked cool getting stabbed Richie responds genuinely. Still pretty defensive and assholey but it’s a start and it’s because Fak keeps trying to get through to him and treat him like a complicated guy, instead of an asshole exclusively (bc fak liiiikes him)

woof

I also see your thought about if Sugar and Richie once had a thing and I think the answer is no… maybe like, waaay in the past (like high school) but more in a richie wants to be part of the family, wants to be with michael, more a date-the-sister-so-it’s-not-gay thing that absolutely imploded almost immediately. And now, for Sugar, i think it’s more she doesn’t like Richie bc he’s the one person who seems to have actually known there was something wrong going on with michael and he didn’t do anything. which of course is eating richie up, but sugar doesn’t know that (esp due to aforementioned bluster), and as a person who clearly really believes in therapy and intervention, Sugar is rightly so furious at richie for ever thinking things with Michael would just blow over and be fine and ALSO furious at him for being anywhere near Carmy. Her “I don’t like him being around” feels like she just thinks he’s an irredeemable bad influence who dragged michael down and will do it to carmy too— which is unfair but also something Richie kinda thinks about himself so they have bad vibes bouncing off each other every time they’re in a room together. and richie loathes her very nice, emotionally stable husband just because he’s annoying, which like, is not an energy I would invite into my home either

but also yes, 100% richie goes down on girls and tbh i think he’s probably really good at it and it’s a point of pride for him

Marcus and his roommate: bffs for life, artists in cohabitation, kiss when drunk and every time go “aw haha nah, right?”

questions i have about fx’s the bear:

- what’s up with fak’s big, gay (requited?) crush on richie? or else, what are they? weird exes? had a one night stand consisting of mutual masturbation only?

- are marcus and his designer roommate a couple or fwb or just two gay guys living together?

[ser-rctslcyer]

Moonlit sea🌙

Also… hi! :)

Hi Rhea!!!!

Two new f/o's I haven't really talked about yet but am having many thoughts about!!!

Moonlit sea 🌙 - What nicknames or terms of endearment do you use for your f/o, and which ones are their favorite?

Carmy is used to having nicknames, hell not a lot of people in his even call him Carmen anymore and not that he minds. It’s not such a big deal for me to use Carmy. He’s had so many wild and both slightly offensive nicknames thrown from everyone around him , a lot of em he doesn’t really keep up with.

Terms of endearment, however, are something he’s still trying to adjust to. I’m the few and far between relationships he’s had, he’s been called baby or babe, both of which he didn’t care much about till we started dating. I love showering him in all sorts of different pet names, mainly sweetheart, bubs, and hon ( for work use). He loves being called sweetheart the most because it makes him feel the most cherished.

Moonlit sea 🌙 - What nicknames or terms of endearment do you use for your f/o, and which ones are their favorite?

Sunny has never had a nickname ever. Not by his fellow Clippers or even The Baron. No one ever calls him anything else outside of his name and title, and he’s always been fine with that. While it took us a bit to truly get together, there was one time I tested out a nickname on him. I had started calling him Sunshine, to which he was very confused at first, thinking I was purposely messing up his name. After a bit of an explanation, he thought it was childish but didn’t stop me from calling him that. And so after weeks and months of blank dead stares and sighs, turned to the soft little twinkle in his eyes and sometimes the occasional small smile. He would never admit to them though but I admire seeing that look of almost carefreeness run across his face.

Just like nicknames, he’s never had a term of endearment thrown his way. His only passible one is sweetheart and I can’t use it too often. Just prefers to be called Sunshine.