#however jgy does not know any of that

[yunmeng-jiang]

interesting stuff in the tags!

yes he is turning on the full power of his manipulation abilities here but hear me out: the feeling of betrayal is (obviously imo) real

if i were jgy i would be devastated. not just devastated. enraged. zewu-jun barged in here with everyone because he believed jgy had da-ge’s head on a shelf? I’m sorry, ZEWU JUN? BELIEVED?? the depth of the betrayal of that is nauseating to me. what the fuck has jgy ever done for lxc to believe that?? *checks notes* ah yes.. the lifesaving watchtowers.. making sure lwj’s reputation survived wwx.. helped everyone he could at every turn… definitely the marks of a guy that has their sworn brother’s head in his closet. dude. that is HEARTBREAKING.

(I mean, he did. he very much so did have his head in his closet. but for lxc to be willing to believe that????? devastating.)

this is the guy that lxc watched/helped REBUILD THE ENTIRE JIANGHU FROM DAMN NEAR SCRATCH. how many late nights?? how many months of quiet, gentle company at the Cloud Recesses (that he helped rebuild and paid for)??? like, this went on for TWO DECADES. TWO DECADES of night hunts and unwavering loyalty and reading each others’ minds and being each other’s closest person. it’s canon that they tell each other everything. jgy gives no one else earnest, unguarded access like he does lxc* (at the very least, earnest). I understand that lxc is reeling (and that this game only works if played fast, and was organised to give no one time to reflect or think anything through) but HOW is his first reaction not more defensive in a situation as extreme as this?

(I think the answer is that if this is his A-Yao that he knows so well, A-Yao will understand that lxc needs to give everything fair consideration and will honour that/not take it personally. which, in fairness (as proven by the Jade token cloud recesses scene where jgy is saying he’ll make sure lwj’s reputation is safe and gives lxc a chance to see da-ge before burial) he seems to do. soooo lxc gets second chances! good to know)

(cut to jgy asking why he doesn’t get another chance to get things right. why lxc won’t give it to him)

that feeling is… exhausting. even if jgy has been devoted to this man (and highkey the jianghu) body and soul for two decades, his first reaction is still mistrust in a situation like this.

(yeah yeah i know he defends him with wangxian and that he’s mild-mannered and introspective but SIR. this is JGY. WHERE is the outrage)

anyhow. this isn’t me trying to decide whether it’s “fair” for lxc to react the way he did. my thesis statement stands: i think in that moment, after the violent despair of Qin su dying, jgy’s feeling of betrayal at realising the extent of what’s going on finally bleeds through. it’s not just him and his clever words. it’s genuine (justified imo) betrayal

(cut to the fucking 3zun ceremony where they say we will not betray each other)

*not sure if i stand by this (su she??? what about our boy) but that merits a whole post in and of itself

[bloomeng]

I know MXTX is a good author I want to get that out of the way before I get into this. She’s a fantastic (male) character writer and she has a great grasp on interpersonal connections. Though she’s working in an established niche genre she’s still very creative, I think SV especially is evidence of that. But there’s one thing that I just can never seem to get a pulse on, and that’s how much she means to comment on classism.

Author’s intent is always gonna be tricky especially when I have to rely on translated texts and interviews. There’s probably a lot of nuance that I miss, not to mention literally interviews I’ve never seen etc. It also doesn’t help that I haven’t read most of TGCF yet, so I can’t comment on that series, and with SV this conversation is less applicable, so for the sake of what I know best I’m gonna be using MDZS as my main example.

Classism is undeniably at the heart of MDZS’s themes, however for years anytime I analysis the text I’m usually fairly cautious to note that I don’t know if this was intentional. This isn’t because I think MXTX is stupid or can’t handle deep conversations, it’s simply because I can’t tell if it was her intent. On paper it seems obvious; WWX, JGY and XY’s wealth disparities, how privilege drives the plot, literally everything about the Wens as a whole. So much of the novel’s runtime is spent showing us how corrupt the feudal system can be, going so far as to have a protagonist who dies for the cause and two antagonists who are driven to be awful because of their poor circumstances in life. It feels intentional that WWX was granted a certain amount of privilege based on something he was born with (his parents connections) and how easily people turned on him. Sure he does unethical things but if not for his status it’s likely he wouldn’t have had to do half the things he ends up doing, not to mention that plenty of people didn’t like before the demonic cultivation started. JGY acting as a foil for WWX feels intentional and I would absolutely consider them foils regardless of intent. With all this in mind I would be inclined to say that yeah, MDZS is commenting on classism, but then WWX marries into the corrupt system and we the audience are supposed to read this as a good thing.

This has always been my biggest qualm with the book. We spend so much time showing how awful this system is and the two people who do anything to try and save it are punished for it by death. Sure WWX is brought back but as soon as he’s in Mo’s body he’s aimless. JGY is of course the secondary villain of the series, but MXTX goes out of her way to make us understand that even when JGY had power, his birth kept him from actually holding any real control, and what control he did have he mostly used to get bad people out of power and make the community better (he was biased and paranoid and vengeful but MXTX’s characters are nothing if not nuanced). Why set all this up to end up in such a contradictory place?

I get that solving such big issues such as classism isn’t easy and we want a happy ending but does MDZS even have a happy ending? None of the mc’s besides LWJ and (supposedly) WWX and LSH and LJY are in good positions by the end of the story. I remember reading MDZS for the first time and thinking that LWJ would fall for WWX because of his radical ideas and eventually see that the Lans were contributing big time to this awful system that favors wealth over everything. Especially because we have a second plot line about whatever was going on with LXC and JGY. And then it just never happens. Instead the Lan sect are painted as ok just because they’re monks. The system wasn’t the issue actually it was the people in charge but don’t worry they’re gone. Life is great now that the most powerful sects are in the hands of a 15 yr old, a man with unchecked anger issues, a council of elders that think corporal punishment is the solution to everything and a man who committed to a life long bit to get out of all forms of responsibility. What could go wrong?

I’ve always thought it was strange and ooc that WWX just accepts going back to Cloud Recesses. His literal incense burner fantasy was a cottage in the woods away from society. He never really warms up to the rigidity or their bland ass food, and he doesn’t even really respect the Lans culture more than he has to. It’s clear he only lives there for his husband and son’s sake. So why am I to believe this is his fairy tale ending?

The only answer I’ve been able to grasp over the years is that the romance genre of the novel overpowers everything else.

This is what brings me back to my original point. I don’t know if MXTX’s intended to comment on class, because if she did I struggle to understand how the ending of the story fits this intention. Which means by default it wasn’t the intention, at least not the priority. I mean ok duh, obvious conclusion, this is a danmei, it’s the bl genre, of course the romance comes first, but that’s not exactly what I’m getting at. You can absolutely have a romance that comments on other things at the same time and I think MXTX’s writing is smart enough to do this, except it fumbled so hard at the end it left me questioning if she even meant to comment on classism in the first place.

A part of me thinks that all of this commentary was just a coincidence of the genre conventions. Cultivator/ historical fantasy tends to just have classism baked into setting, so maybe that’s all it was. Perhaps she was just borrowing what was already there to make interesting character motivations and it wasn’t done with any intention of commenting on any sort of greater societal issue. Which for the record would be ok. I’m not policing what MXTX should write and romance for the sake of romance is perfectly valid, but as a reader I’m allowed to say this particular instant made me dislike the actual romance she set up. These issues in the book made me actively dislike LWJ. I’m on an island about that though. Getting back to my point, I struggle to call this commentary intentional and thus things like WWX and JGY suddenly feel unintentional as well.

I also find MXTX’s own words to be contradictory at times. For instance, she’s mentioned that after SV she found writing more than one couple to be too taxing. When asked if other characters in MDZS were gay she said explicitly they were not, yet both MDZS and TGCF have unofficial side couples that are an inch away from being canon. She’s also mentioned that XY, Sl, and XXC were old characters of hers and were originally going to be the focus of the book, which leads me to believe that they would’ve been a canon love triangle. So I am skeptical when she said all the characters besides WWX and LWJ are straight. I’m not accusing her of lying or anything like that. Tolkien contradicted himself so many times in his letters and essays, it’s sort of par for the course in my opinion. What it does mean though is that I can’t get a read on her intentions. What I can gather from what she tends to focus on in her extras, interviews, and just the fact that this is the BL genre, I’m inclined to believe that a lot of these parallels are unintentional but then I circle back to just how heavy handed it all is and I’m unsure again.

Anyway this was just the world’s longest way to say that actually we don’t have any idea what her intentions are and this is why when I’m analyzing her work I make a point to not put words in her mouth.

[guangshi-091305]

OP really said ARGUE WITH A WALL by disabling reblogs and its so funny to me. Why do you speak on public platforms despite knowing you're so utterly wrong that you cant bear to get dragged for your misguided 'canon' takes LMAO.

Let me spell this out for you, JGY and JC are both negative af and manipulative bitches in their own right. They DONT care. You're trying to tell me people should care for others solely because they're related? How do you explain domestic abuse, both canon and irl?? People hurt the ones they claim to love, ones they're related to on the name of discipline and love and thats a fact. You dont have to hate someone to hurt them, love in itself can be horribly toxic too.

As for JGY, dude I am not going to argue about him wanting to protect JL this is the fucking guy who killed his own flesh and blood so his crimes arent exposed and used his 'murder' to put an end to clans opposing him. He does NOT care about JL, he's just chill with him because JL poses no risk to him in any way, neither in terms of stealing his post as Chief Cultivator and LanlingJin leader, nor as someone who has some dirty secrets he can hold over him. JL is harmless, why would he do anything?? Yea if JL ever got in his way...oops, accidents happen, dont they?

Edit: I never said JL doesn't care about JC and JGY. He clearly does, a lot. However spoiling someone is not equal to being good to them. A lot of people spoil others because they have no other way of showing their love I.e. have shit personality, etc which is the case with JC. He loves JL yes but is he a good role model? No. He uses money and other material things to keep JL's affection because he truly has no other way. JGY? Maybe he likes JL, maybe he doesnt but point is JL loves him and is clearly alive so...

[rejectedfables]

I think often about Jin Guangyao’s “[I murdered] my father, my (older) brother, my wife, my son, my teacher, my friend” quote. I think about how Jin Guangyao, a man known for self effacing politeness to the point of taking blame and shame onto himself to alleviate the tempers of others, in this moment takes complete responsibility for "murders” that he absolutely did not commit. And I think about how the audience both in the story and outside it, take his words at face value.  

I think there are multiple ways of interpreting who this quote is about. Obviously Father = Jin Guangshan, Wife = Qin Su, Son = Jin Rusong, those are clear. I think (older) Brother could either be Nie Mingjue or Jin Zixuan. I think "teacher” could be Wen Rouhan or Nie Mingjue. Friend could be Nie Mingjue, Su Minshan, or Xue Yang.

So I think the ONLY options for [brother, teacher, friend] (in that order) are: 

NMJ, WRH, and SMS

NMJ, WRH, and XY

JZX, NMJ, and SMS

JZX, NMJ, and XY

JZX, WRH, and NMJ

JZX, WRH, and SMS

JZX, WRH, and XY

I also saw a translation where he said “friends” plural, which would reduce the list to:

NMJ, WRH, XY and SMS

JZX, NMJ, XY and SMS

JZX, WRH, SMS and NMJ

JZX, WRH, XY and NMJ

JZX, WRH, XY and SMS

However, given the importance of his relationship with NMJ, I feel like we can safely eliminate any that exclude NMJ entirely. Similarly, there cannot be characters mentioned here who are unnamed or unknown to the reader, as that wouldn’t make any Doylist sense. We are left with a list that consists of Nie Mingjue, either WRH or JZX or both, and possibly XY and/or SMS. 

Regardless of which of those combinations you use, he did not directly OR EVEN DELIBERATELY murder everyone on that list. Let’s go through them:

Jin Guangshan: Yes, he deliberately ordered and orchestrated his father’s death. Outstanding, earned, poetic, no notes. (Okay maybe SOME notes, but like, listen. Listen.) 

Qin Su: Qin Su killed herself. In the animation, Jin Guangyao used the skull-piercing nails to force her suicide, but this is not canon to the novel. Bicao claims that Jin Guangyao must have killed her to silence her, despite her suicide having many witnesses (including us! the readers!), but Wei Wuxian (who WAS THERE) speculates that she couldn’t handle the reality of her marriage, as illuminated to her BY Bicao, or the prospect of societal shame if it got out. However, even IF “your actions drove her to suicide” were the rubric here, that’s still not quite the same as “you murdered her”, nor does it seem to be the outcome he was hoping or planning for. “JGY murdered her” is factually inaccurate, and a blatant propaganda tactic being used against him-- but perhaps it felt emotionally true to HIM because he’s grieving his DEAD WIFE and he FEELS responsible.

Nie Mingjue: JGY spent something like 5+ years suffering physical and verbal abuse and explicit threats of death by Nie Mingjue, then was tasked with killing Nie Mingjue by his father. He did so in a sneaky way, so as to not endanger himself further or get punished for (or perhaps cause an inter-sect conflict/war by) killing the leader of a rival sect.

Wen Rouhan: JGY stabbed him in all adaptations, A+, war hero.

Jin Zixuan: JGY, on his father’s orders, orchestrated a situation that led to Jin Zixuan’s death. We cannot know for SURE that JGY wasn’t aiming for his death but we CAN say that “Wei Wuxian accidentally compelling Wen Ning to kill the ONE GUY PRESENT Wei Wuxian did NOT want to kill” (OR “WN killing JZX of his own accord against WWX’s orders”) would have been a weird bet to make. This seems highly unlikely to have been JGY’s goal, but it was certainly caused by a situation he created. He also did not actually literally kill the guy.

Su Minshan: Su She died to protect Jin Guangyao from Nie Mingjue’s fierce corpse. Jin Guangyao is only “responsible” for this in the vaguest or terms and worst faith of interpretations. Technically Su She wouldn’t have died there if not for JGY on multiple levels (wouldn’t have had to protect him, NMJ’s fierce corpse being JGY’s fault, wouldn’t have been present at all if JGY hadn’t summoned him there, etc.), but if Jin Guangyao describes this as “I murdered him” that’s... a stretch. Again, like with Qin Su, this feels like something he might say because he FEELS responsible, rather than because he actually is.

Xue Yang: JGY ordered Xue Yang’s execution (or possibly ordered a fake execution, but this seems less likely) directly before he fled, injured, to Yi City. He did not die here. Later, after reconnecting and while still following Jin Guangyao’s orders, Xue Yang was killed by other people in opposition to Jin Guangyao’s wishes and plans. Again, TECHNICALLY Xue Yang would not have died when he did were it not for Jin Guangyao, but describing it as “Jin Guangyao murdered him” is QUITE a stretch. Due to the title of the “Villainous Friends” extra, which is about JGY and XY specifically, XY seems the most likely candidate to me for “Friend” in this quote, which is bizarre because I think his death is actually the LEAST connected to Jin Guangyao. Jin Guangyao wasn’t even present, nor did Xue Yang die FOR Jin Guangyao-- just on his payroll. BUT perhaps he still felt guilty for ORDERING his execution, and simply his willingness to HAVE Xue Yang killed counted enough to make the list.

I’ll get to the last one, but I’m pausing here to say: What all of this means is that no matter who is or isn’t on that list, it is NOT an objective list of factual murders. It is a list of people who’s deaths Jin Guangyao FEELS RESPONSIBLE FOR.

Even before we get to who counts as teacher, brother, or friend, even JUST his wife solidifies this. But it isn’t JUST her either-- even if we cut SMS and XY (the other two BIG stretch candidates) from the equation, that leaves us ONLY with NMJ(friend), WRH(teacher), and JZX(brother). And Jin Zixuan is the other one that really should not make the list of people JGY “murdered”.

This is a list of people who’s deaths Jin Guangyao FEELS RESPONSIBLE FOR.

Which brings us to the last one:

Jin Rusong: The quote (I believe this is a fan translation, but not sure) "One of the opposing sect leaders lost the arguments [about the watchtowers], and went into a murderous rage, killing Jin Guangyao and Qin Su’s only son. The boy had always been a good child and the couple had loved him dearly. Under resentment, Jin Guangyao tore down the entire sect in revenge” is, to my knowledge/memory, the only real account we’re given of what happened. “Lost the arguments and went into a murderous rage” doesn’t sound like the child was found dead some time later, and they had to investigate. It sounds like it happened in public, with witnesses, immediately. 

In the same scene where Bicao convinces an audience that Qin Su, who famously killed herself on screen in a room full of people with a (now) known motive for suicide, “must have” been murdered by Jin Guangyao-- in that same scene others speculate that Jin Rusong, who was famously killed by a political opponent in a “murderous rage” most likely DURING A CONFERENCE, “must have” been murdered by Jin Guangyao. 

I think "I angered an opposing sect leader so much that he killed my son" being translated by JGY into "I killed my son" is EXACTLY IN LINE with the rest of his list. How is that different than "I ordered Xue Yang's assassination, and later put him in a situation that caused others to kill him" being translated to "I killed my friend"? Or “Su She died to protect me” being translated to “I killed my friend”? Or “I didn’t anticipate my brother’s unwitting involvement in a covert operation would get him accidentally killed, which no one wanted, not even the guy who did it” being translated to “I killed my brother”? Or “I tried to protect my pregnant fiancé/wife from a horrible secret I only just learned, which would ruin her life, and when someone confronted her with it TO HARM ME she couldn’t live with it and killed herself” being translated to “I killed my wife”? It’s the same!

I do not believe that Jin Guangyao killed Jin Rusong. I believe “I murdered my son” is an example of the way that Jin Guangyao speaks about himself-- always taking the maximum responsibility onto his own shoulders. If he was in any way responsible, than he was completely responsible. If he FEELS responsible, then he MAY AS WELL have murdered them.

The context of when he says this quote also matters towards how we interpret it’s meaning. He was already attempting to flee the country, aware that the cultivation world was actively turning on him for crimes that he did AND DIDN’T commit. He was surrounded by people he thought cared about him, all of whom seemed determined to stop him from achieving a safe exit. He had had all the horrible things he felt responsible for (regardless of how directly or deliberately he was involved in those events) thrown in his face by said loved ones, while they looked at him with horror. Su Minshan had just been killed trying to PROTECT HIM, and now it looked like it had been for nothing anyway. Huaisang, who he is shown as doting upon throughout their decades long relationship, has just manipulated Lan Xichen (do I even have to go into how important Lan Xichen is to him? Please say no, please say this much at LEAST is universally understood) into BEING THE ONE to STAB HIM. 

In this moment, he believes that he’s going to die, and be reviled in death by society and his loved ones alike. He knows there’s nothing left he can say or do, he hasn’t had time to process Su She’s death, and Lan Xichen has JUST (accidentally) betrayed him (which he also hasn’t had time to process). 

And also, notably, he had very recently been IN POSSESSION of the TIGER TALLY. 

AND HE’S BEEN STABBED! To my memory this scene happens while he’s missing an arm and LAN XICHEN’S sword is still INSIDE HIS GUTS. His emotions and reasoning are probably NOT the most calm or rational right now (blood loss, pain, fear, grief, influence of the tiger tally, etc.), and this “confession” should be taken with that in mind. 

I just think a lot about how “I murdered [everyone I’ve loved except for you]” is such a raw and telling line, given the context. Even if it’s more like “I murdered [everyone I’ve owed devotion to except for you]”, that’s still so painful. He blames himself for all of it. All of it! The world celebrated Wen Rouhan’s death, but Jin Guangyao added it to his personal list. Jin Guangshan is arguably the most reprehensible character in the entire story, and ruined every part of Jin Guangyao’s entire life, but he’s on the list. He did everything in his power to protect Qin Su, and when she found out the truth he continued offering her ways he could protect her, but she chose to kill herself, and she’s on the list. He tried to improve the world with the watchtowers, and someone retaliated by murdering his son, and he claimed responsibility for that too.

He knew he was being blamed for their deaths, knew it was propaganda and slander and bad faith, but he blamed himself too. So he just... accepted it. I did it. It was me, I murdered them.

And so, so, so many people, in his world and in ours, were so, so eager to agree

[the-demon-under-my-bed]

JGY and SMS thoughts

I do not like JGY. This should be made clear because Im about to defend this man like i want to suck his dick.

JGY was born to be second place. He was never meant to be a leader, and belongs behind a figurehead leader, pulling the strings. (The best JGY in fandom is second in command to JZX because JZX is a lovable moron).

His watchtowers? Amazing 10/10. Murdering JGS? 8/10 shouldve done it sooner.

The big problem with JGY is not his ruthlessness or his sociopathic tendencies, its his ambition. He places so much arbitrary value on being Sect Leader, chief cultivator, and also being accepted by his dad. If he had recognized that JGS would never love him, he would’ve offed him ages ago and been the mastermind behind JZX, where he belongs.

SMS on the other hand is correct in every possible way.

I love a good henchman, and he will dirty his hands and his soul for JGY and I adore him for it. He truly did not give a fuck what JGY was working towards, he let himself be used like a tool and I appreciate being able to relate to his character. Blind love and loyalty, no morals just Do. He is so precious to me and if JGY had killed JGS earlier SMS would’ve been a great Jin henchman.

Before that, however, SMS is just kind of an ass. Again, I love asshole representation and hes iconic, but it does mean he will never be a fan favorite. Unlike the “Heroes” of the story, SMS is primarily concerned with keeping himself alive, and he recognizes that he is a background character. His death wouldn’t be noted or appreciated, just a corpse in the background of a few scenes before never being heard if again. Think of the entire battlefields of dead cultivators, the Jiang and Lan disciples killed, no one cares. They are lumped together as a “tragedy” but no one remembers their names. For SMS, that is his fate and he recognizes that.

So no, he does not lay down his life at the first chance. Yes he is a “coward” who runs away when he knows he cant win a fight. GOOD FOR HIM. The protagonists of this story would never have protected him, and so he’s gotta do it himself. His later devotion to JGY just shows that he is not incapable of love, of care, rather that he chose not to care about WWX or any of the other main characters. So he is an antagonist in WWX’s story, but not a true villain. Just a man who wants to stay alive and I respect that.

Anyways I love SMS and have complex feelings about JGY.

[pieridae-art]

Special Lan Xichen analysis post

As I’ve previously said, Lan Xichen is a very flawed person and that’s okay! I want to examine him at several parts of the story and pick apart some of the criticism he gets. So let’s talk Lan Xichen!

Siege of the Burial Mounds: I really like this one shot from the donghua where the Sect Leaders of each sect (NMJ, JGS, and JC) are shown at the siege and beside them representing the Lan sect is… Lan Qiren. Not LXC. Setting aside the perfect storm JGS set up for the siege to occur (I don’t care who led it; JGS is the problem post-Sunshot Campaign about 99% of the time), I think this is because LXC stayed back in the Cloud Recesses with LWJ tending to his wounds post-whipping. Not assuming LXC’s absence, however, the siege was led by JC and orchestrated (because separating the twin prides of Yunmeng and artificially creating tension within the jianghu was a deliberate action) by JGS. Not saying LXC’s participation is okay just because he wasn’t the driving force behind it but imagine if the Lan sect stood against the other sect’s wishes. Standing up for WWX would have been the right thing to do but were the Lans in any position to oppose the siege with their sect in the process of rebuilding? Going along with the siege, to me, is an act of cowardice, not malice. Extra note: we see his capability of defending the Wen remnants when JGS is talking shit about them and WWX but he is shut down immediately and does not speak up any further. This is not a matter of hypocrisy; it’s a matter of fearing the consequences.

NMJ’s death: this is rocky territory. It was a bad idea full stop to force proximity between them hoping everything would sort itself out. But you simply cannot blame him for NMJ’s death because he couldn’t have known. One could argue that he endangered JGY by forcing him to be near someone who tried to kill him several times. I think that’s an oversimplification of the situation. To me, this was a gesture of trust. Trust that NMJ will make an attempt to restrain himself/get better and trust that JGY will aid him in doing so. As we know, this trust is misguided. He’s rather naive to think this would work. But he is humored anyway by two people with bad intentions toward each other. LXC is not at fault for this going south when it was at a certain point inevitable. But he did enable it.

That one line about WWX being LWJ’s only mistake: I get so defensive because honestly I’d have said much worse in his position! Think about what he knows about Wangxian’s relationship leading up to it. He saw his brother devastated that the man he loved was being corrupted and harmed by his cultivation, watched as LWJ despaired over him and fought the elders and got whipped for him. He’s only seen his brother suffer due to his love for WWX. Was saying this okay? No. Consider the circumstances surrounding this line, however. Also criticizing him for this is just plain nit-picky to me lol there’s plenty this man has actually done wrong to criticize him for.

And another thing: stop saying he favored JGY over LWJ!! The entire point of his denial surrounding JGY is that there was no solid, tangible proof that was damning enough for him to outright condemn JGY without some level of unfair assumption! He was trying to be fair about the investigation! Might I add: WWX was the only one who saw NMJ’s head in Jinlintai. Had it been LWJ to see it and approach him I think the story would’ve gone differently! But it wasn’t. And he wanted to have faith in his friend from an underprivileged background constantly facing slander and mistreatment despite doing good things for the world against the jianghu’s wishes because isn’t that what LWJ did with WWX? LXC learned his lesson from WWX’s death, he just practiced it on the wrong person.

What have we learned? Lan Xichen was complicit in and enabled a lot of Bad Things if he was not an active participant, most of it willingly and some of it unknowingly. He’s unfair sometimes. He’s weak willed and lacks the strength to actually stand up for anyone in a meaningful way. He’s naive. In my opinion, he was in denial for a large portion of his story about the harmful effects of his actions.

And I adore him! He’s got the capacity for so much good and he fails to live up to it! He wants to be righteous and he doesn’t know how without putting the people he is responsible for at risk! He thinks he can do conflict resolution and he just can’t! By the end of the story, he is painfully aware of all of this and he lives knowing he did the wrong thing over and over and over again. He got the only outcome he could ever have. I don’t think he deserved his ending but I do think he might have earned it.

[fincalinde]

random question friday: what sport do you think lxc would play?

Random question Friday I answer several Tuesdays later! This fox cannot be tamed.

So lucky for you this happens to be a subject near to my heart and those closest to me are at dire risk of having it outlined to them at any given moment that LXC is without a doubt a tennis player. Here are my reasons three:

Tennis is a sport associated with wealth and social status. It has traditionally been a sport of the middle classes and above, which I have been informed is also true in China and is one of the reasons for the tennis boom there in recent years. As the leader of a prestigious clan, LXC is at the pinnacle of his society and in a modern AU would therefore participate in such sports.

Tennis requires extraordinary mental discipline. When you're on the singles court you have to solve your own problems and your own mental strength is vital because there's no team playing around you and every single point counts. That mental discipline is not a million miles from the kind of discipline required to become a truly powerful cultivator making maximum use of their talent.

Sexy Wimbledon whites.

I happen to love tennis so I'm aware I have a shocking bias, but I think it's just two keen interests I have happening to fit together surprisingly well.

As a bonus, this is my opinion on professional playing styles for the tennis AU I will never write but have bored on about privately for the past three years:

LXC - your classic elegant all court player, the most powerful one-handed backhand on the tour, as much as he enjoys singles in his heart of hearts he never has more fun than when he's playing doubles with a good partner

JGY - counterpuncher, scrambles like you would not believe, literally never knows when he is beaten and has pulled out more wins from match point down than any other player, has a completely undeserved reputation for gamesmanship via taking bathroom breaks and medical timeouts as a strategy (EVERYONE DOES IT)

LWJ - technically an all court player but drifts into pusher territory a little too often because he likes to hit perfect shots until his opponent makes a mistake - however when he does step up to play offensively, beware

WWX - loses points he should win because he's hitting tweeners for the lolz, gets seriously injured playing doubles with JC and changes his playing style drastically to shorten points, becomes serve and volley king and still hits tweeners and underarm serves whenever he wants, literally the worst doubles player known to man

JC - offensive baseliner constantly being berated by his mother (coach) to COME TO THE NET and can never volley as well as WWX does, hugely outstrips WWX in ranking after the Incident and is constantly paranoid that without said injury WWX would always have beaten/outranked him

NMJ - servebot, breaks rackets on court, has been defaulted from matches for rage hitting balls, is the toughest prospect out there on grass and hugely respected for it, retires early due to health and becomes his brother's very ineffective coach

NHS - defensive baseliner bc that's the farthest position from the balls shooting at him at 200kmph, hasn't even cracked the top 200 and all his tour-related costs are covered by NMJ, has won a couple of doubles titles where NMJ did all the work, still somehow makes more in endorsement deals than most of the rest of the cast put together

[lgbtlunaverse]

POV switches in chapter 108

This is generally me trying to figure out which parts of the novel are from wei wuxian's limited perspective and which ones are omniscient, as they switch pretty frequently and without warning. And also specifcally because @darkfalcon-z asked in a reply to a post I made earlier today!

Obvious disclaimer that this meta looks pretty closely into specific wording, and that my source remains a translation. I haven't read the original text and so can't attest to my accuracy there.

So MDZS gets real messy with its narration. It obviously starts in omniscient with celebrating Wei Wuxian's death, but spends a lot of its time in limited, most exemplary shown by the enduring obliviousness wei wuxians has towards lan wangji's feelings never being explicitly undercut by the narration.

The novel... does NOT telepgraph when it switches povs. Moreover, wei wuxian does sometimes make confident statement about how other characters feel. Prime example being him talking about how jiang cheng would react to finding out about his core

This being, notably... NOT what Jiang Cheng's actual reaction is when he does find out. That's because wwx is working with incomplete information here, he didn't know Jiang Cheng was willing to lose his core for him to begin with.

Also, he afformentioned obliviousness to Lan Wangji leading to him, multiple times, attributing the wrong motivations to lan wangji's actions.

The novel doesn't outright say "wei wuxian assumed/ thought that jiang cheng would react like that" in the screenshot above, but it DOES clearly show, by leading with him thinking about why he thought he coudn't tell jiang cheng about the golden core transfer, that we're in his head at the moment. And so the following statements are also his thoughts, not omniscient narrations. The difference is very subtle. But it's there

So we're in chapter 108. right before Lan Xichen stabs Jin Guangyao, an we're clearly in omniscient.

Lan Xichen's feelings are stated plainly and there's not very much focus on Wei wuxian at all. It switches over briefly to him and lwj checking up on Wen Ning but his feelings are not overriding everything else.

Then the stab happens

We're still in omniscient here. "Lan xichen felt his heart go cold" a detail Wei Wuxian couldn't know, stated plainly as a matter of fact.

However.

I think this part

Is where we retreat from omniscient back into wei wuxian's pov. We're not told anything about either of these character's inner worlds, but do get some extra litte commentary that jgy was so slow that even Jin Ling could catch him with his eyes closed! That's not something either Lan Xichen or jgy would be thinking of right now. It is, however, a comment Wei Wuxian's inner monologue might think to make.

In the context of my earlier post, which this was inspired by. It also makes some assumptions. Namely, that Xichen is just going after jgy to catch him. It doesn't explicitly say so, because we're not in omniscient anymore but it's clear Wei Wuxian thinks so as he'll feel the need to warn him in a few seconds. This is interesting, as it directly contradicts a popular fan interpretation of this scene, that's become explicitly canonized in multipe adaptations, which is that Lan Xichen is intentionally going along with and is willing to die with him. I'm not saying this theory is correct based on its popularity alone, obviously. I was actually surprised to find out it was so vague when I read the novel considering its popularity!

By the next chapter we'll be unambiguously back into wei uxian's head, and after "Lan Xichen could no longer persuade himself to silence him again" which is in the paragraph before the one in the image above, we are no longer told any other character's feelings or inner thoughts except for Wei Wuxian's. Specifically, this:

So this describes wei wuxian realizing a "something" what something? well, this something.

Again, the difference is subtle. The statement of "He was fighting with his last breath to lead Lan Xichen towards Nie Mingjue, so they could die together!" might seem like another one of those "other charcters' feelings" statements. But we're not IN Jin Guangyao's head right now. This is describing actions, not thoughts. He's not trying to get away (a visible action wwx would be privy to) which must be because...see statement above.

And all of this is framed under the banner of Wei Wuxian saying he realized something, and that being that Jin Guangyao isn't trying to get away and Lan Xichen needs to get away from him because... see statement above. This line basically starts as a repitition of what Wei Wuxian said, repeating his assumption, and then clarifying what Wei Wuxian DOES think is happening. The whole paragraph between is just buildup for the payoff of what that "something" of the realization is. MXTX could have writtern "wei wuxian, however, realized something. Jin Guangyao wasn't trying to get away! Instead he was trying to lead Lan Xichen towards Nie Mingjue so they could die together" and them describe the scenario, it'd be functionally the same in the manner of what information was conveyed, but the little gap in setup and payoff increases suspense and makes the reveal more engaging. It's a good little writing trick!

That wording above does make it way more obvious that that statement? Is one of wei wuxian's. That's what HE thinks.

In the line where jgy pushes lan xichen away, we're still not privy to their feelings or thoughts at all.

But we do get this curious litle "yet,"

That means this is a subversion, something that goes against what was previously established. Namely, that jin guangyao would want lan xichen to get caught by nie mingjue. The actual reality of the situaton conrasts hat we were told earlier. it's a surprise. to who? Well, to all the other characters watching this go down. wwx among them. We get other little commentaries, like how the sight of jgy being choked by nmj is frightening, placing us even further away from his inner world and into the shoes of someone watching him in the temple.

The style being used here is similar to the one in the next chapter, when nie huasang's plan is unveiled. First you get bit of dialogue with clear implications from Wei Wuxian, and then we go into wei wxuxian's head. In a few lines it's explicitly established that he's questioning things, and we are following his line of thought. And then a whle account of nie huasang's plan is given. With no further affirmation that we're still in wei wuxian's head. That's based on context clues given prior. Is this recount of the plan correct? Most likely, yeah! But we're never expicitly told. We are still in wei wuxian's head.

This bit on Jin Guangyao is similar. From the removal of stating other character's feelings (a possible exception might be the statement that "Nie Mingjue is not afraid of spiritual weapons" but that is something observable to wwx who's been seeing nmj not give a shit for a good few minutes now. We get nothing he's not privy to) and a clear indication that we're inside his head now. What we get next is his reocunt of the events, and they're fairly factul as he simply tells us what he sees, but when he gets into the reasons for why things ar ehappening? Well, if we wanted to, we could doubt that.

[symphonyofsilence]

It never ceases to baffle me how the fandom can use a certain logic to achieve one desired conclusion (see: MXTX wouldn't make an openly gay character in a homophobic world a harasser, so MXY hasn't actually harassed JGY) even if it goes against the text itself (MXY admitting in his diaries that he has harassed fellow Jin disciples) while the same logic doesn't work for them the other way around in the favor of the character they don't like (while MXTX would not do the aforementioned case, she would, however, make the character that is the son of a sex worker, and continuously discriminated against, considered dirty, belittled and ridiculed for it throughout the story a groomer who led a teenager MXY on so he could later accuse him of harassment) while this too, goes against the text (again, MXY admitting he has harassed someone in his diaries (he might have very well mentioned Jiggy in his diaries but not as Jin Guangyao, or Lianfang-Zun, Sect leader, or Xiandu or anything that WWX would know. but with the name MXY would call his older brother. maybe "ge" or something. then, if he had mentioned him in an inappropriate way, WWX wouldn't have made the connection that MXY was talking about his real brother), the text offering nothing to prove the contrary, JGY most likely wanting to avoid any rumors that would relate him to incest, the text going out of its way to give us info about JGY's nonexistent sex life in 3 different occasions, even though we had no business knowing about it, the first mention being literally in his introduction, when it's said that he's known for being extremely loyal to his wife, unlike other men in his position (showing us that he's traumatized by his father's behavior and would never repeat it), then at the Guanyin temple when he says that he's never touched QS after finding out the truth (if he's loyal to Qin Su, and hasn't touched QS for more than a decade, then by now he's essentially reset to factory settings and is a virgin again), then when his mother is offended again and Xue Yang offers that he should fuck the offenders' moms and JGY says that he's not in such habits and Xue Yang confirms that yes, that's not JGY's ways. Even when they're being openly villainous and have nothing to hide from each other. and I don't think it would be too much of a reach to think that a teenager in a brothel who looks notably like his mom and would be considered a "pretty boy" in ancient times with no child services would not be a stranger to nasty looks from grown men and thus would have trauma related to grooming.)

of course, the logic is flawed in general. Because MXY has allegedly committed harassment in one form or another and JGY did force a group of sex workers to rape his father to death, and then to continue even after his death, and then killed them all. Because the cycle of violence is one of the recurring themes in the book. And is broken by only a handful of characters, and even then in some of their cases not in all aspects.

And I won't even open the can of worms that is the Yunmeng Shuangjie. (because apparently, JC is toxic and bad for WWX even pre-time-skip because...he jokes around with his brother?...but WWX is not toxic and bad for JC when he jokes around with his brother? (this has a simple reason, and that is that nobody is toxic and bad for someone else due to joking around in a harmless way, especially among siblings.) And JC and WWX have a toxic relationship and can only break up because JC just keeps nagging WWX, while WWX causing trouble for JC & their sect every second of the day because he does whatever he wants and says whatever he wants in front of whoever he wants is not stressful for JC. (again, The Yunmeng bros themselves enjoy this dynamic. Or at least think the other parts of their relationship is worth putting up with these annoyances. WWX annoys JC every chance he gets and actively kickstarts JC's naggings. JC's life is dull and dark and boring without WWX's shenanigans and the dramas he causes. He himself thinks that having WWX in his life is worth the trouble. JC makes WWX more responsible, while WWX makes JC more carefree. they're good for each other.)

So as we saw, usually, when a certain logic doesn't work both ways it's because it's flawed. make sure to not use a certain logic in your determination to defend a character that should technically work for the character you hate, too.

[thatswhatsushesaid]

I haven't consumed MDZS in any direct form, but I have a close fandom friend who is super into it and it is WILD following you and then also listening to her takes, haha. (She is a NMJ stan. I've sent her a few of your posts and she's been like, "lol wow this person seems perfectly pleasant and intelligent but we have diametrically opposed character opinions.")

Maybe I'll get around to watching the show eventually so I can form my own Extremely Correct Character Opinions. xD

lmaooooo oh boy i do imagine we have diametrically opposed character opinions 😬 fwiw most of my opinions come from the novel rather than the show because the show sure does make some Decisions about jgy because of censorship reasons. dunno if that changes anything for your friend!

tbh tho there are only a few character opinions vis-a-vis jgy that i am very inflexible on:

he is not evil! this is probably the most important one, and everything else stems from this point, such as

he does not lie nearly as often as his harshest critics insist he does

he is not into incest, that was never something he sought either from qin su (he did not know!! that they were siblings!!! when they had sex!!) or mo xuanyu, i don't even know where these takes come from arrrgh

he never, ever, ever would have sought to cause lan xichen harm. this is NOT the same as him indirectly causing lan xichen harm and pain through his actions, because of course he does that. but his relationship with lxc is on another plane of existence in comparison to his other canon relationships, and however one chooses to interpret that relationship, it's crucial to his character

anyway!! i do hope you give the book a read, tho i won't pretend i don't have an agenda lol. come join me in jgy stan hell, it's a great time over here 🧋

[darkfalcon-z]

You know, if you think about it JGY is the only politician in MDZS. It's not that he's the only "capable" politician, however you chose to interpret what a "capable" mean for a politician or whether or not he meets the distinction but the only politician, period.

He's the only guy who pursues policies or strategic goals through policies.

JGS doesn't really do that - he "outsources" this labour to JGY. He does pursue strategical goal through manipulation of other people at power, but we've never saw him doing so to pursuing a policy.

WRH arguably tries to implement policies but he follows dictatorial model with little political legwork involved

NMJ doesn't unless you count going to a war as a policy (by that I mean he had been trying to rally the support for the cause not just declaring a war)

LXC at most supports JGY, he doesn't pursue anything on his own

NHS manipulates the opinions of other people for his own goals, but he doesn't do it through policies of for the sake of policies.

JC established internal policy for his sect to not send his cultivators unless someone already died, but there are no clear strategic goals he's trying to accomplish through it, nor had he do anything to implement it.

Same can be said about JFM, although his policies were different than JC. And also we don't even know if he established Jiang sect internal policies himself or simply followed traditions.

LQR used to meed Sect leaders but he's to know for any policies whatsoever.

QHJ doesn't even go here.

From what we've seen the sect leaders don't even think in terms of policies. They aren't politicians.

In contrast we know JGY is responsible for at least two policies he had to do the legwork for. He IS a politician. It's hard to tell how good he is because a guy who comes last at the local sporting event is probably still better than guys who never excise, but yeah, it's still to his credit.

[mostlikelytofangirl]

Ooooh yeah WRH being possessive asf in every aspect!!! He's gonna have the boy and he'll be damned if there is any obstacle to that!

NMJ being a replacement daddy is so interesting! JGY only being able to be truly intimate with someone that he can have power over OR taht treats him like a son, but what he truly longs for is dadson kinking :D

If WRH killed JGS, MY would just stay, I think! I believe MY alr went into it with a mindset of like "Wether sunshot suceeds or not, I'll win either way", it would not end badly for him and MY knows it

I too am full of Vibes and considering it

Love me a possessive daddy :'). That boy is his now and he's going to claim him in every way, yes!!

I like to think that since our boy here is, as far as canon suggests, bi, that it reflex in how he liked a petite woman like QS bc there was no physical risk there, but when it comes to men, he does seem to like him older and bigger, and that plays into his daddy issues, looking for that paternal attention. I imagine that played a lot in his dynamics with NMJ back when MY was younger and they were still in good terms. So after losing WRH, the closest thing he had to that was da-ge, and that's why he tried to hard to salvage the relationship.

(And I can totally see him never mustering the corage to ask LXC for that XD).

Yeah, I can see MY going through a whole ass crisis once JGS is dead and his main motivation for the mission is gone, but he would run the math and eventually conclude that, since there's no reason to betray the Wen now, why not enjoy his new position as heir and partner (however that works lol) of the most powerful leader?? He could convince WRH to spare MY's most important ppl, so even if the war is lost, at least it won't be a complete shitshow.

But most importantly, MY is now in a safe place when he is cherished and throroughly fucked by his new 'father' as he deserves :'D

[lansplaining]

*rocks up to the fandom meme mad late with drip coffee i made in my own home even though its like 10pm*

sometimes i see posts that express some intense general feeling about my dude, lan wangji. intense like or dislike, extreme affection or disdain, you know, the usual. and – with the exception of people who are super blatant side character fans who are expressing the opinion they adopted from their fav side character – i don’t really believe any of these strong emotion claims (ppl who are actively roleplaying jiang cheng or lan jingyi i believe you i promise pls).

(beginning hyperbolic generalizations in 3,2,1-) as a group fandom just does not ponder lan wangji enough for me to believe many of them actually care the way the suggest they do, and when they do he doesn’t stay the topic of conversation for long. sure, they might start a post about his traumas and woes about his parents and his beloved but strict grumpy uncle but that post will swiftly slide to xichen and the way he approaches relationships and then it turns into 3zun and that turns into Mess lol. maybe they’ll start with how he was raised but don’t be fooled! that is actually just the opportunity to complain about the evil lan sect and all its controlling rules in a trench coat. if you find a post about his relationship with his brother then what you’ve actually found is a post about the tension between the nie bros, the trauma amongst the siblings jin, or Whatever Is Happening In Lotus Pier and the Twin Jades of Lan are actually just there as a comparison point in paragraph three of the essay. more often than any of this, if you think a post is about lan zhan, blink, and it will be wangxian before you hit the author’s note/tags.

secondly, if the fic isn’t a lwj-centric fic then lwj tends to be 1) an objective window into the story, a reliable narrator you can trust to give you the plot with no opinions, thoughts, or feelings about what’s happening 2) a Voice of Judgement an author can use to berate a character they’re mad at with the idea that hanguang-jun can get away with that with minimal fall out and is Convincingly Convicting enough to change the character’s behavior 3) a plot-hole filler – you don’t have to explain why something is true is lwj says it bc he never lies and he probably knows more than you. it’s the maple leaf in the Xuanwu cave over and over 4) a treat for wwx. you don’t have to like lwj or let him speak, just have him in the background for wwx to kiss and beg money from occasionally.

i have to say I’m not /bothered/ by this. i have enough lwj brainrot for all of us I don’t need other people’s thoughts and headcanons i have my own and a corner of fandom that supports me in these things. i know a lot of it is bc mxtx made him all ~mysterious. i just think its funny when people speak so strongly on the guy as if they think of him ever for real at all.

this is fascinating. obviously I spend my times in the JGY/xiyao corners of the fandom, but I am probably one of the people you are talking about in some ways!! i fucking love lan wangji, i experience extreme Feelings about him regularly and he's the reason i fell in love with CQL and ended up on this downward spiral into madness

but if i tried to make a post about him it would be like, 'u know when CQL wangji says 'are there rules already written for everything in the world?' and it permanently altered my brain chemistry? (hand gestures)'. my position on lan wangji is no thoughts, only internal yelling.

however, i think all the patterns you're noticing are so right, especially when it comes to fic. when it comes to meta i sort of get it-- wangji doesn't feel like he NEEDS explanations, he's the main love interest! other characters need their arcs and interests and personalities excavated, whereas his is surely just right out there. but it isn't!

[mdzs-owns-my-ass-i-guess]

The governess

Warning: this ficlet is not very nice to JC. Or JGY.

Based off this poll

"This lowly one," she begins, though there is absolutely nothing humble about her demeanor, straight-backed, tall, eyes shining with cold disapproval, "apologizes for interrupting sect leader Jiang, however I wish to relay to you some knowledge that would help A-Ling better reapond to your high cultivation requirements."

Jiang Cheng looks at her with the diplomacy of somebody about to stomp on a cockroach. "Since when are the servants of Jinlintai so loud-mouthed? Why would I listen to you?"

"I am not a mere servant, I am Jin Ling's governess. I spend more time caring for him and raising him than you do."

Her glare grows colder, and she takes full advantage of the few extra centimetres of height she has over Jiang Cheng, making it a point to lower her pupils to emphasize it.

"A-Ling responds best to encouragement, spoken in a kind voice. Threats and yelling do nothing but tense and clamor him. Would sect leader Jiang be so kind as to be softer around his nephew?"

It does not sound like a request. Jiang Cheng feels threatened by this woman although he knows he should not. She is not a cultivator, she is not even a Jin by blood. What she is, is audacious. Zidian sparks on his finger.

"You have a lot of nerve talking down to me like this. Are you forgetting who I am?!"

"I am sure sect leader Jiang allows nobody to forget." Her tone carries the slightest lilt of sarcasm. It is quickly replaced with a stern demeanor. "A-Ling's well-being is my top priority. I care about nothing else. And I am seeing him shaking and holding back tears because he cannot perfectly execute the steps to the Jiang swordplay that you've been screaming at him to follow for hours now."

"I will not have some lowly servant tell me how to raise my nephew!"

She nimbly avoids Zidian's hit, the whip knocking over a decorative vase and the chrysantemums in it. She lands graciously, sighing with disapproval, eyebrows knit together in a frown.

"Sect Leader Jiang, please calm down." Jin Guangyao steps in, seemingly out of nowhere. Jin Ling's governess does not seem to enjoy that fact in the least.

She bows, although there is no respect behind it.

"Reel your servants in, sect leader Jin!" Jiang Cheng bellows. The governess glares at him so venomously that for a split second, he almost thinks he sees her eyes turn red.

"Lady Ming is only looking out for A-Ling, I am apologizing on her part if she has been out of line..." Jin Guangyao says, ever so polite, just a tiny bit whiny, so very humble.

The governess can see through his act like glass. Lianfang-zun is just another one of those court snakes that slither up the stairs of Jinlintai in search for fortune and fame. He just so happened to beat all others to the game - which means he is most dangerous.

She needs to keep A-Ling safe. She still remembers what happened to A-Song...

"Dinner is about to be served. You should let A-Ling get ready, and do the same yourself." Jin Guangyao continues, and the governess almost feels sick with the way his gentlemanly manners are so theatrical and over-the-top.

Jiang Cheng huffs, withdraws Zidian and storms away, Jin Guangyao in his stead. He sends the governess a warning look, his eyes almost slitting like a snake.

But she has grown up beheading them in the tall grass of her childhood home. She bows, still without an ounce of respect for either of the two sect leaders. Then, once they're out of sight, she rushes to help A-Ling stand up and dust himself.

His quivering lips make her heart squeeze. "Jiujiu will never be proud of me..."

"That's not true, young master! Sect leader Jiang is just..." she pauses, trying to avoid any curse words, "...rough around the edges. He means well, he just does not know how to convey it. Don't put his words to heart. Even if he says some... outlandish things, he would never act on them."

"I know he won't break my legs for real, but it's not nice to hear it..."

"That's just how he is." The governess sighs. "And I don't think he'll ever change. But you will meet a lot of people that say rude things to you, so you must learn not to pay attention to them, alright?"

"Okay..."

"And just so you know, your uncles are very proud of you. And I am too."

Seeing A-Ling smile again inevitably drew a smile from his governess as well. Maybe A-Ling never got to meet his mom, but he thinks she would have smiled at him exactly like that.

[cuckoo-among-beasts]

what's your thoughts on jgy?

anon || random ask

I'm going to assume this ask for me, the mun, and not Huaisang, since I believe we're all pretty aware of what he thinks of JGY xD

What do I think about JGY? That's a complex, but also not complex, question. First of all, I do like the character, he is definitely well made and I love how he has done a lot of good stuff. The reason behind why he did the good things, I'm going to leave up to each person to decide. I personally think that some was due to genuine care and some was to further his position. However, this does not excuse the bad things he did. I'm not going to list those since I assume that you, the reader and/or anon, already knows this as well, but I especially dislike the innocent people he sent to their death (which includes the prostitutes involved in his father's death).

I know what some of you might say now, that Huaisang too killed innocents, but I personally disagree about that. MXY was probably an innocent, but Huaisang did not force his hand. How much he influenced him is unknown, but in the end, he didn't force his hand. Was it wrong of him to influence him? Probably, all depending on to what level he did so. And then there's Yi City, which I don't think Huaisang can be viewed as guilty for, that was XY.

Though, I do also think that pretty much as bad as killing innocents is killing "family" and that was what JGY did by playing Turmoil for NMJ. Should NMJ have kicked him down the stairs? No. But by then he wasn't really himself anymore either and tbh I wanted to slap JGY then too with the shit that came out of his mouth. Hurting in disguise of helping like that, like JGY did with NMJ, that is one of the worst things you can do imo. I'm very much about loyalty and that act was very disloyal, even if he also, in a way, were filial by doing so. Which is also something I find important, but I do draw my line for loyalty (to friends and family) when it comes to hurting others for personal or familial gain.

Do I understand JGY's reasoning and motivation behind his actions? Yes, I think so. The way he had been treated by many was wrong, very much so, but that still doesn't excuse murder.

Oh and while I'm at it, he said he never planned or had hurt LXC, I disagree. Why? Because he used a Lan technique to kill NMJ. He used something LXC had taught him, twisted it by changing a part (also found with the Lans) to kill their sworn brother. He used a gift to do an action he knew LXC would be against and I see that as hurting someone too (just like NHS made LXC stab JGY, even if that didn't technically kill him, at least not in the novels, I've heard it's different in CQL).

Did all of this made JGY deserve to get killed? No, but I'm also against death penalties and murder of any kind. I do think he deserved to be locked away for the rest of his life. Though, what I wish the most is that he didn't have to have gone to such lengths. That JGY had told his sworn brothers about what JGS wanted him to do, even if that would've caused a war.

[hannigramislife]

thanks for your pov! some of those things he didn't do, but I understand why you hold him at fault for them. I think it's interesting that you think he has no love or affection for anyone and always cares about his goals. wouldn't it have been smarter & more cunning & ruthless to just let nhs run the nie into the ground instead of helping them? and to kill qin su earlier, even when rusong was little or before he was born? plus, why be so kind to lan xichen, for most of their lives? and why not kill da-ge in nightless city and blame it on wrh, instead of letting nmj free and then having to dodge his attempts to kill jgy over the xue yang incident? these are some things that make it hard for me to say he does everything out of pure ruthlessness.

All that makes a lot of sense!

Again, my takes are very new, as I just finished the second book literally yesterday. And from all that I read, nothing was pointing in that direction, for me. If the narrative voice is to be believed, Jin Guangyao's actions were all very calculated. Again, if I had the opportunity right now, I could cite them from the book (thank you for this discussion, I am liking the trading of povs!)

I could be wrong! I haven't sat down to think about all of it yet!

When watching the show, I actually found him much more empathetic and believed he actually cared a lot. It was only as I read the book that I was like "Wow, from this perspective, he literally discarded everyone like they were nothing."

Also, I don't get why I'm being told by people that I'm "classist" for saying he wasn't a good person, and that Nie Mingjue deserved to die? Have I completely misinterpreted everything that happened? Countless times, the book mentioned how highly Nie Mingjue thought of Jin Guangyao.

When it comes to your question, it is my personal belief (again, I could be wrong, this all fomes from me finsihing the second book) that Jin Guangyao didn't do things differently, simply because they weren't convenient at the time.

He went undercover in order to gain enough acclaim to be recognized by the Jin Clan, but killing Nie Mingjue at the time was too risky, and what would he gain from that? However, he killed his own father, and Jin Zixuan, and cursed his cousin, so once Nie Mingjue became a problem, how hard would it be for him to get rid of the sect leader? Nie Mingjue became a problem, as I saw it, once he kept pestering JGY about Xue Yang: and we all knownwhat JGY had Xue Yang around for.

Lan Xichen always took his side, so why wouldn't Jin Guangyao be kind to him? The book also said that he went to Lan Xichen with his troubles, but referred to his action as "...trying to sow discord between them (LXC and NMJ)" so idk what to think.

If he is to be believed, Jin Guagyao said "at the beginning, his heart was true" when talking to Qin Su after she found out, but he also said "You must know, A-Song always had to die," so if he was willing to kill his own son, how likely was it that Qin Su would be any different?

As for helping Nie Huaisang with the clan, I have yet to form an opinion about that. Too many things could be considered in that particular equation.