#honestly if we treated him like how he would treat others he would be doomed

[transparentkittenheart]

Wyll and Astarion were talking about justice and what it means to them. Wyll was being an enlightened centrist about "needing balance in all things." Then Astarion goes off saying how "You really need to make an example of them. All crime must be punished to the fullest extent!!"

I'm just like.... my guy.... YOU'RE THE CRIMINAL??

[spacecasehobbit]

One of the most tragic parts of Oliver's story in Saltburn is the way that he started out as just a very lonely, socially awkward person who was, I suspect, genuinely looking forward to Oxford as his chance at a fresh start, a place where he was going to Do Better and Make Friends and Be Normal.

And then the first person to talk to him when he arrives at Oxford - all wide-eyed and dressed up like he's going to an interview instead of starting University - is some random guy who makes fun of his jacket.

And then the only person to talk to him at dinner is some guy who is immediately insistant that he and Oliver are doomed to be friendless loners forever, and Oliver shouldn't even bother trying to make other friends.

(And I think he did try to make other friends - the next thing he does after that first dinner is sit himself down in an empty common room, alone but approachable in a public space, while no one tries to approach him or talk to him.)

And then he discovers that even the professors think he's kind of weird, when his tutorial professor responds with surprise and almost discomfort upon learning that Oliver read the entire summer reading list. Academia was probably one of the few things he could take refuge in and be proud of himself for, if he managed to get a scholarship to Oxford, but now he's at Oxford and even his academic smarts aren't as important as knowing the right people and saying the right things.

Which is a lesson he learns when it turns out the other guy in his tutorial is the same asshole who made fun of his clothes on move-in day, and the professor forgives this guy for being late on Day 1 and takes his side on academic arguements even when this kid hasn't done the reading, because the professor had a crush on said kid's mom back in the day.

We see Oliver get bullied, we see Oliver get treated with awkward dismissiveness, we see Oliver repeatedly told that he'll never be friends with anyone at Oxford but Michael Gavey (by Michael Gavey, who never seems particularly concerned with what Oliver thinks about the matter).

We see that Oliver is unhappy, that he is alone, and that even when he tries to put himself out there in public spaces that he doesn't know how to make himself the kind of person that other people approach or talk to.

Until finally, he takes a more active approach and engineers a "chance meeting" with Felix.

And Felix thinks Oliver is great.

Felix tells Oliver that he's kind; Felix talks to him and touches him and smiles at him without reservation; Felix kisses his bike helmet while telling him he loves him. Felix asks for his name and repeats it over and over like Oliver is a name Felix wants to have in his mouth, and then he even gives Oliver a nickname that same day while riding off to his tutorial on Oliver's bike.

Honestly, it's no wonder Oliver's crush went from intense and maybe a bit creepy to fullblown obsession, when Felix is the first person at Oxford to seem overtly, openly, unreservedly excited and pleased every time Oliver is around.

No wonder he got so desperate to keep that feeling, even as his own happiness around Felix started being consumed by his fear of Felix getting bored of him, his fear of Felix abanding him. He could tell himself that all the stress, all the anxiety, all the lies and compromises to his own selfhood and integrity would be worth it, as long as Felix still looked at him like Oliver Quick was someone worth looking at. As long as Felix still looked at him like he was something special, like he was something good.

[archiveofliterature]

i see a lot of criticism about the friendships between the babel characters and how we were told a lot of things about their positive dynamic, yet shown barely any of it (but are instead mostly presented with the negative aspects). i don’t know if other people clocked this but i feel like it was intentional

rf kuang was commenting on friendships made through trauma-bonding: they were doomed from the start

tldr; the characterisation is (one of) the subtly(ies) people were looking for in the colonial theme. they criticise the latter but i love the fact colonialism is more of an upfront theme because lord knows i am tired of it being subtle so people can ignore it

robin says from the very beginning after they formed their little friend group:

“why had they been so quick, so carelessly eager to trust one another? why had they refused to see the myriad of ways they could hurt each other? why had they not paused to interrogate their differences in birth, in raising, that meant they were not and could never be on the same side?”

the next small paragraph goes into a raft metaphor about how they saw themselves in each other and that’s why they stuck together. they shared one thing they could not ignore – their otherness. their friendship was purely built on the fact they were discriminated against and that they had to spent the next 4 years with each other. their first pleasant conversation is them discussing how they were treated at oxford. of course, the characters didn’t see this because they had never really befriended people their age before. this feeling of belonging felt like love to them (considering their upbringings, ramy’s i will discuss in a bit)

it makes perfect sense why robin would repeatedly imply that they loved and cared about each other. in his eyes, they did. what was it they had if not love? robin, who has ignored so many problems in the past before babel as he knew it would cause him issues, wouldn’t address their friendship dynamic or how strong the arguments and animosity were. he, an abused child, would rather have this than nothing at all

in actuality (demonstrated, i think, through the photograph they took at the end of chapter 9), they were together because of academia’s and discrimination’s forced proximity. robin feels specific emotions about them that feel strong to him because he’s never experienced it before, but that doesn’t mean they are strong enough to keep them together, which is why when they see the photo, they feel weird about it because why isn’t it portraying their dynamic ‘correctly’?

it’s true that perhaps to get robin’s perspective across, it would’ve been good to see the positive aspects more but i think that would’ve made it harder for us to see how weak their friendship was. people wanted more positive to show that they loved each other, which isn’t the point rf kuang is trying to make

rf kuang chooses to show the negative aspects more because they show where their friendship will end up. when letty did what she did, i didn’t see it as a plot twist, i saw it as an inevitability. this was going to happen. honestly, i feel this with most of the ‘plot twists’ of babel except the end of book iii (i really didn’t see that coming). it was easy for letty to do what she does in book iv because their friendship had such unstable foundations. when they no longer benefitted her, she turned her back on them

the only dynamic i feel was actually strong was robin and ramy. i’m not just saying this because i think they’re queer lol. they were close not just because they were both men of colour and had similar upbringings – they actually liked each other. they admired each other and adored each other’s personalities, they bounced off each other and knew what the other meant when they spoke. when they argued, it was over something that actually considered each other’s beliefs and goals and desires, not over their differences.

(unlike letty and ramy, letty and victoire and maybe even robin and victoire, though i think they lean more to ramy/robin than they do to letty/anyone lol. ramy and victoire have a dynamic that i personally feel like robin didn’t really see because ramy understood victoire in a way robin couldn’t. you kind of see it when robin is the one who letty complains about ramy/victoire to, but that’s it i think?)

speaking of ramy, linking it back to their perspectives of love, it makes a lot of sense why he caused the most disruption in the friend group. he’s the only one with an actual family that he stays in touch with. he knows what love feels like. so of course he’s the one that is strongly anti-empire, compared to robin and victoire who have been emotionally manipulated in their childhood by said empire, the one who argues with letty the most. he still feels what robin and victoire feel, of course, but to a lesser extent

honestly i don’t know how to end this analysis, i just think rf kuang is a genius lmao but i may add more onto this as i continue to reread the book we shall see

[starleavess]

it's honestly kind of crazy how much of dave's behavior you can compare to a dog's. he's lonely -- he lost henry. he's been abandoned -- by henry dying; he's lost the only person who he considered family before jack. he's hurt -- because of henry and his past, even if he doesn't fully realize that. one of dave's first reactions to rejection and abandonment is sadness. when you decline his offer of murdering children in dsaf 1 is an exception, as it's simply an invitation for jack to 'hang out' with him. one of their first interactions in the trilogy is him suggesting they kill kids to get out of this place that jack got hired at like 5 minutes ago. and... that's quite literally all he knows. he was never taught normal things, he was never taught how to play with other kids or how to talk to people or how to do normal, fun activities. he was taught how to take lives instead. he was taught what to do so that things would go his way, even if he doesn't often use that ability to benefit himself. his number one priority seems to be jack, now that henry isn't around anymore. he focuses solely on him, and if he's going to make fazbenders go down, dave'll help him along the way. he considers jack his family, his partner, his second half. he is forced to love the people he considers close unconditionally on top of everything he does, because that's what he was taught to do. it became his instinct, much like a dog's. his instinct, which he couldn't ignore in the end, nor disobey. henry was the one who forcefully drilled that mindset into his brain through all of the abuse he made him go through and how he kept on treating him when he was younger. dave didn't know he was being manipulated nor used and therefore he thought that this was love. if he wants to be loved, he has to obey. if there isn't anything you can compare something to, how can you know it's right? how could he know what love was if he never truly experienced it?

in the bad ending of dsaf 3, he doesn't push jack away. he doesn't struggle against him as he breaks more than his heart. he simply begs him not to do this as all he does is helplessly "sit" still in one place. a dog which knows its doom is near and all it can do about it is accept it. and those still aren't his final words. his final words are "i love you" directed at jack. his family. a part of him does not want to obey. a part of him wants to lash out, be angry, be angry at the world which turned against him. no longer stay the victim. and we see just that in davetrap, which is a live (even if he's dead) manifestation of that part of dave. no matter how much he tries to get rid of his deeply rooted mindset which makes him hardwired to do what others want him to do, he can't. davetrap can't. he can't because he unreservedly loves people who hurt him. he loves henry and he loves jack. it's just like an instinct. when jack tells him to get out of his restaurant in the neutral ending of dsaf 3, he obeys. when henry asks him a question, he answers. they're his family -- how can he not listen to them and trust them with his life? that's what family's supposed to do, anyway. he learned that family members don't keep secrets from eachother. he didn't mention the box to jack until the bad ending in dsaf 3, which means that he did keep secrets from him in the past, long before he confessed he considered him his family. again, you can't keep secrets around people you love. he gave jack a key to the box and asked him to open it with him like it was a tradition. like it was something they've been doing together for 20 years, something dave can't let go of. dave likes simplicity. i can only think of three examples of simple things which bring him comfort, and the last two are not necessarily… uncomplicated. they wouldn't come across a normal person's mind if you had told them to think of something plain they enjoy doing. but those things are simple to Him and i think that that's very important for his character. even if complicated, it is easy to him. the first thing is vegas. in vegas, he has the chance to just have fun. like a normal person. a normal person with a fucked up and soulless friend, but a friend nonetheless. a person who doesn't kill innocent children. a person who wasn't abused in the past. a person just like all the other people currently at a club with him in las vegas. the second example is animatronics and just tampering with mechanics in general. that is something he is good at, most importantly. he's been working with henry long enough to just tamper with fazbender's animatronics for fun or to disable them to his advantage. he got used to this and it became simple to him with time. and the last thing on the list -- killing kids. that doesn't bring him joy, obviously, but it works as a last resort if things go south. an easy option like many other. he has murdered many in the past, so do just a few more children make that big of a difference? jack is simple to him because that's just someone who he is "friends" with, if you can even put it that way. he clings to him. he's simple, even if he is a very complex character. dave himself is, too, or atleast in henry's eyes. the doctor sees him as dimwitted, someone who's unable to comprehend his genius. like a dog, far below a human person. simplicity isn't something that dave was exposed to very often as a child. he had to constantly perform for food and sleep outside and whatnot just to survive. a kid shouldn't have to be on his own for years. simplicity just wasn't something that was available to him for free in those times.

that was, until he met henry. henry made it better for him, even if there were layers upon layers of abuse under how he was helping dave. he did make it better. he no longer had to fend for himself, alone. he was no longer abandoned, much like a terrified dog picked up from the damp streets. everything was better, so he didn't question anything. he was loved, he had someone close to him, he had shelter, a purpose, even if it was to be used and later discarded, no longer a man with hope for the future. but how could he know? and now, he is drawn to things which he lacked in his childhood. simple things. he loves them unconditionally. they remind him of henry.

[ltlemon]

thinking about how if tsubomi accepted mob’s confession for whatever reason, how utterly Shit it would go. the world’s most autistic aroace boy and the school popular girl are like so doomed to crash and burn and it would be Incredibly fun to watch.

first off, mob really doesn’t have a crush on her.

he knows her from kindergarten and they’ve rarely spoken since-they might’ve counted as friends before, but now they’re much closer to just acquaintances. fact is, he doesn’t know her. he’s interpreting these feelings of adoration, nostalgia, and a desire to reconnect, as what’s entailed for a romantic crush. he likes a girl, she’s pretty and popular, so this must mean he likes her.

tsubomi is the shape of a person. she’s an ideal to adore, a fantasy to think towards, but she’s not a part of a real grounded relationship, nor is he ever setting her up to be.

don’t get me wrong here! he definitely likes her well enough, and maybe thinks she’s beautiful, in an aesthetic sense, but he doesn’t really ever involve himself in those feelings. they’re very analytical, they’re treated not as reasons he loves her, but just as…things. when mezato asked him “what exactly do you like about her”, he seemed genuinely shocked, like he’d never really thought about it. he stood there and tried to think about something that he loved about specifically her, some reason or some sign that he was in love, and there was nothing. all he could say was that she respected him.

so anyways. what i’m getting to with this, is that i honestly don’t think mob planned any further ahead than just…”confess”.

she’s the ideal crush, this far away idea of the girl he should like, and she doesn’t exist outside of that. since there isn’t anything deeper, if she accepted him…??? GOD.

i actually don’t think he’d know where to go from there. he didn’t plan that far ahead, even though she was the goal, this carrot on a stick the whole time.

there’d be so many weird attempts at dates and outings, they’d do “couple things” but neither really knows the other enough to know what they like, or how to talk to each other, especially with the sudden change in relationship.

mob never thought to bring her flowers or a gift until teru told him that was a thing couples usually do. so following that, he’d probably mainly instigate things in that same sort of “well, this is what couples do” sort of way. adhering to the societal expectations of how you should act when you get the girl. their relationship would be empty and forced, dragging each other along… and i just think it’s interesting because. that would be the standard ending right? boy gets a crush, works really hard on himself, musters up the courage to confess, then they get together and it’s great and everyone’s happy forever!!!

but one of the main messages of the whole show is literally “we’re all living our own lives, and we have to be ourselves despite it all.”, and having the classic guy meets girl ending specifically and loudly not click with who mob is as a person is a Very Interesting Choice. dating tsubomi, while also obviously not what she would ever choose, would also crash and burn for mob. him ending up with her would mean not being himself, and that’s basically textual. mob’s happy ending is literally accepting his emotions and walking away smiling at rejection. if that’s not so incredibly aroace of him i don’t know what is. 🎉

[acerikus]

G o d. All gekkos' outertale posting makes me wanna talk more in depth about the characterisation and plot issues in this game and why they bother me...

(readmore bc holy fuck this got long, it's probably like 5k words. It's also pretty much all salt, categorised by character)

Toriel

Why. Why is she like this. Kinda feels like the creator of the game hates her and if they don't, they have a weird way of showing it. She's treated as overdramatic and unjustified in her anger at asgore despite the fact that he DID declare war on humanity and he DID willingly let the people believe he was killing human children to harvest their souls. Even if he didn't do it for real in this game, she has every right to be angry and to not trust him, and it CERTAINLY doesn't make her undeserving to be a mother or whatever. Idk about you, but I don't think wanting kids to stay away from a man yelling about wanting to kill every child that crosses him makes you a bad parent, even if it turns out he didn't really hurt anyone y'know?

They also REALLY zoned in on 'mother' with her in a way that doesn't really make sense here. I could maybe see her feeling guilty for making a snap judgement but how would that call her motherhood into question?

Sans saying isolation messed with her makes no sense too!!!! The outerlands or whatever they called the ruins isn't sealed off in this game, other monsters seem way less intimidated by her in this game than in undertale (she has friends! She knows sans by name and goes to napstablook's shows and even has their phone number!), and we outright get told she takes the taxi to get her groceries... Meaning she headed off to the rest of the outpost and probably does that often enough.

All things considered, Toriel seems fairly well adjusted in outertale, at least by outertale standards. Kinda then makes it feel like everyone's just trying to convince her she's hysterical and that... Sucks.

Also the fact that they added an ending where you stay with her and framed it as a bad ending that doomed everyone is... Really mean? It sucked ass I'm sorry :/

Sans

... Why is he like this. This take on Sans is absolutely infuriating tbh. The only positive I really have here is that his puns are kinda good, I've seen fangames that fuck up this element massively and it was kinda fun to see his interactions in starton.

Okay, back to salt. His whole 'i became a sentry to help humans' thing is trash. He didn't care about that in ut! He didn't care about that at all! The only reason he looks out for frisk is because he made a promise to toriel, and he hates breaking promises. He didn't want to let down his friend.

...Huh. realising this is yet another case of Toriel disrespect somehow. Yet another thing they took from her, that they then just... Handed over to sans instead. :/

His lack of backstory. Look, I get wanting something silly, but they took almost everything that makes sans interesting away. Not hyperfocusing on sans like certain aus do is nice, but it feels like in a lot of situations in this game they overcompensated by a long shot.

No mysterious past/origins. We know he worked with alphys I guess but???? Honestly I have a LOT to rant about for that part so I'll leave it for twinkly's section. And yet despite all this, Sans inexplicably bleeds in tpe when not even undertale has that happen? Make up your mind!

His role in non Asriel chaotic also... Sucks ass. I'm in a pretty awesome corner of the fandom in terms of the people I follow and the takes I see as a result, so if I'm honest, when I saw all those posts about 2024 fanon sans being indifferent to his brother's murder, I kinda just figured they were vaguing about this game. You're telling me that sans of all people just shrugs off you killing everyone and complains a little bit before letting you pass?! He should know alphys already ran off. He should know the only person left to stop you is asgore, and that it's obvious he won't. Part of this could be connected to how frisk is written perhaps, and much like the twinkly situation, I'll have much more to say on that further down.

I understand the creator didn't wanna have a sans fight in their game - however, if that's the case... Maybe come up with a reason for him to NOT show up in the last corridor, then? Have him busy helping with evacuations or something, or already dead like in the first chaotic ending... This was just sloppy.

Papyrus

Honestly he wasn't... Terrible. The phonecalls were fun even if most were cheap references (though they can be fun in fangames sometimes so I'm not mad at this lol). Him being extremely talented at making spaghetti is just one symptom of one of this game's biggest flaws, however. I really don't like how nobody's really allowed to be bad at anything or have any real struggles in this game - especially when spaghetti in undertale is used to demonstrate his relationship with undyne and the similar wavelength they're on when humans aren't involved. She's the one who started teaching him to cook it, it's deeply intertwined with his desire to be a royal guard, and it's something they suck at together. Him just inexplicably being good at it is... Weird, and feels really disconnected from their friendship and her reluctance to let him in the guard yknow?

Also: his boss final phase. Having the dog NOT take his special attack away this time was really funny admittedly but... Idk? Not only is the fight really unfair for pacifist/neutral and those who aren't as good at the game (ut never gets this hard outside of geno), it feels way too on the nose in terms of insisting he's strong and has powerful attacks. Undertale didn't need to overcompensate to get across that papyrus is strong and disciplined and the way you have to infer that in undertale is way cooler. I might just be nitpicking with this point tbh but it's whatever. Letting myself be a hater for once.

And don't get me started on him getting together with Mettaton. It seemed to come out of absolutely nowhere, the idea that they were already friends in this was glossed over really quickly and no time was really put into developing the relationship save for papyrus commenting on finding him attractive every few minutes.

Gotta be honest, I've never been a fan of this ship nor understood its popularity. Papyrus very briefly mentions thinking he's attractive in undertale, but it doesn't really go anywhere and I'm not even sure mettaton knows he exists. It feels like it was just kinda added because it's a popular ship and that's it, not sure it really contributes much to either of their arcs. It was a light-hearted celebrity crush in canon and never really tried to be more.

Oh, oops. Had more to say here than I thought.

Undyne

Not much to say here... I think she was okay, there's nothing super bad with her. I do think the way gerson kinda downplays her/lacks faith in her in the chaotic route kinda sucks and I think choosing to make her non-undying chaotic bossfight harder sure was A Choice, but it's whatever. Undying was weirdly easy in a way that didn't do her much justice. Honestly they didn't do enough with her for me to have a wall of complaints and I can't tell if that's a good thing or not. Her relationship with alphys didn't really amount to much and her lack of understanding of human culture doesn't really hit as hard when she's just talking about random sci-fi things that we have no way of knowing are real or not in this game's idea of the 2600s ourselves, y'know? Her love of anime (that she mistakenly thinks is human history) is pretty absent here except to validate her relationship with alphys in a very shallow way.

The Ghost Family

Hoo boy... Was gonna make this the mettaton section, but I wanted to talk about napstablook at the same time, so I'm just gonna lump them all together.

What. What the hell was this plotline.

It feels like they tried to go for 'smalltime farmer chases passion for stardom after feeling unfulfilled at home' and as I've seen someone else say, 'shy business owner struggles to talk to their cousin outside of work'. This would've been fine tbh, but... There's a lot of things in the execution of this that kinda grossed me out if I'm honest. I don't think they were intentional, but I think it could've been thought through a lot better to avoid some unfortunate implications - or even lean into them in a respectful way.

Firstly, the ghost family intervention was pretty long, awkward, and didn't feel like it really added much - especially when most people playing would already know mettaton's backstory anyway (and his house is still accessible like in undertale!!!!! What was the point?)

Mettaton airing out his family issues on live TV feels very ooc - he keeps that stuff very close to his chest and I doubt he'd like it getting out. Him entertaining any of that out in the open seems... Weird.

Speaking of the intervention, his cousins' treatment of him was horrifying! Part of it seems intentional and it's nice that there's at least one part in the game where characters are allowed to have flaws and do bad things but... There's also elements that feel like you're meant to agree with them? Their insistence that mettaton just come home and everything they did in the past with constantly badgering him to come and help out on the farm were rightfully treated as something that hurt mettaton's feelings and that gave napstablook and the others pause. That's (mostly, we'll come back to it later) fine. He called them out for it and they reflected on it, cool. The way his ghost form was utilised makes me extremely uncomfortable, however.

Napstablook talks about hearing 'the real [mettaton]' in the recording, right to his face, 'the real mettaton' in this scenario alluding to his ghost form. Considering mettaton is a trans allegory, this feels... Kinda gross? In a similar vein, when passing mettaton's quiz barriers, one of the questions is 'what is mettaton's true identity' and you have the option to deadname him (using a name papyrus literally just made up in undertale rather than having any kind of creativity ofc) Alphys' reaction is simply to ask how you know that which... Doesn't feel great. The correct answer is 'mettaton' ofc thankfully, but everything around this particular plot point feels weird. Maybe don't do that w the most prevalent trans allegory character..?

And ofc, they keep insisting he just come home, go back to working on the farm, go back to his family... Idk, gives me vibes of someone abandoning their shitty transphobic family and then insisting they want to see 'the real [deadname] again' and for them to abandon their new life and just go back to the way things were before. Not good.

All of this would still be okay for the most part since the ghost family are painted as being unfair to mettaton... But in true pacifist, he goes back to helping out with the farm anyway and talks about how he thinks he was probably just being dramatic after all, and how 'blooky didn't do anything that bad'

... What?

It takes me right back to Toriel's treatment. Napstablook, Maddie and lurksalot gave no real thought to mettaton's feelings, made it all about them and showed pretty much no support for his transition nor his career! Fuck those guys! It's funny - mettaton is pretty consistently a pompous asshole (affectionate) in undertale but here, I think all his feelings towards his family were COMPLETELY valid. Mettaton outertale didn't do anything wrong.

Lurksalot didn't feel like they contributed much to the story either, save to be yet another character treating mettaton like shit with zero consequences nor narrative judgement. They just made every ghost family event even more drawn out.

And then ofc!!!! Mettaton and Alphys' friendship is so bland in this game! They're two people who kinda know each other and she says some nice things about him in a letter in chaotic but that's about it. Their friendship and the subsequent conflict frisk's arrival brings to it in undertale is the heart of hotland and the core, but here it's just replaced with unnecessary, hard to watch, boring family drama. The two of them have no issues to work out. She doesn't ask too much of him. There's no funny quips and barely any chemistry at all. God forbid either of them have any real flaws.

One last thing: I'm glad maddie gets her mew mew body, it's nice. Wish it was an on-screen moment or something alluded to more though. Some of that time dragging out the family drama could've been used on that instead, y'know? Especially with napstablook getting the mew mew doll... Genuinely thought they were gonna show it to her when they first got hold of it, rather than dragging Frisk into their intervention. She should've gotten to be more mad, too. Kinda a big part of her identity.

Oh, and mettaton's no-asriel chaotic fight was bullshit. It was a nice spamton reference and the first phase was cool, but the second was utter bullshit and dragged out the fight way too long. Attacking him after snapping all the wires should've killed him im sorry. It's even more of a shame bc I genuinely really liked this game's mettaton neo fight - it was fun and creative and felt possible.

Holding myself back from adding any more to this bc I could go on and on, ugh.

Alphys

Alphys. For a game that tries to make her the star of it, it's actually kinda impressive how much they managed to take away from her and just how uninteresting she is in this game.

At the surface level she's awesome, powerful, and the star of the show. In my first playthrough I was actually pretty happy to see her thriving like this! The more routes I played and the more I thought about it though they just kinda... Declawed her. Took away all her flaws. Made her 'perfect' in a way that I don't think works at all.

The amalgamates never happened. None of her experiments went wrong. She never hid away from her mistakes, or lied to anyone (save for keeping Asgore's secret, which she has no negative feelings about), nor did she over engineer any situations to make herself seem cooler. She doesn't argue with Mettaton! She's confident and assertive! She's Asgore's right hand woman and next in line for the throne! And ofc, the badass final boss! What's not to love?

...But none of this is Alphys, is it?

Her anxiety isnt just because of the determination experiments, it's pretty clear she's always been a pretty shy and nervous person. In fact, based on her entries they were one of the things she was more confident in before it all went wrong. People are hard, but she knows science, y'know?

She doesn't get to be flawed or interesting - despite her presence, she's just a generic cool scientist who's suave with the ladies, I guess..?

She isn't particularly dorky, shes overly confident, she has zero issues to work through. Her relationship with undyne is perfect (derogatory) and her infodumping about anime just before the archive feels very forced, like they remembered last minute that she does that and thought it should be included somehow.

Depicting what she'd be like in a scenario where the determination experiments never happened is a fun and interesting idea! But deltarune demonstrates how to do that well, and I think they completely missed the mark. The way she talks, her body language, the way she acts around others in general... These things are universal constants and yet in outertale, she's basically a different person entirely.

Outertale alphys isn't allowed to lie (save to cover for asgore Secretly Being A Good Person), she isn't allowed to miscalculate, she isn't allowed to mis-speak or make mistakes or do anything she'd regret. She feels like an alphys written by someone who hates her in canon and thinks all her flaws make her terrible and unlikable. I doubt this is the case since I don't think a person like that would've given her such prevalence, but that's the level of love and attention I feel was given to her writing here. It makes me sad.

And, of course... The DT experiments and her fight.

... Why did she have vials of determination if all the humans are alive? Did she take it from them? If so, was this before or after they went into stasis? We know she's not been the royal scientist for long in relation to how long humans have been falling, so did ROMAN take the determination? How much of this did she even DO?

Why did she and sans even DO anything with determination? It... Doesn't really make sense.

Speaking of determination, why did she melt at the end of her fight? I'd assume she's injected herself with determination as one of the vials in her lab is mentioned to be partially used, but I'm pretty sure it's also like this on pacifist. Was that overlooked? Are we just meant to assume it's MORE depleted? Does she just have natural determination now because She's So Cool And Badass? This isn't even really a complaint about the fight, more just how poorly that part of her lab is handled lmao

But getting into her fight... Idk, it didn't really feel like her. A lot of it was just random bullshit that was hard for the sake of being hard, that didn't really seem to be tied to her identity very well at all. People complain a lot about the Zenith Martlet fight in undertale yellow but that's done far better than this, imo. It clearly reflects martlet's character, personality and canonical bullet patterns (we see Alphys' in ut tpe!), there's a genuine feeling of progression in the fight and the act you're given to help with the fight feels more effective - you can still damage her on her turn, so taking a turn to heal act doesn't feel like a waste. The Asriel acts though... They just don't last long enough to feel that worth it? Sure they're okay, but in general, you get a lot less time to breathe. Martlet's fight lets you retry from phase 2 if you die. Sans' in undertale gives you as many turns as you need to heal while he's sparing you. Alphys' fight just feels like it's made to feel un-fun and painful throughout in a way that just isn't worth it, and doesn't really feel like it fits her personality either, y'know? The fight was just a slog and like many others, I had zero motivation to finish it legit. I don't think it helps that the undyne and mettaton fights in this route are fairly easy and simple in comparison.

Tldr: they took away everything that makes alphys endearing, fun and interesting. This isn't alphys at all.

Asgore

A huge chunk of this essay accidentally got deleted, including my first attempt at writing this section. In it, I mentioned that the Asgore apologism went way too far.

This time though, I don't think I'd even call it that. Reflecting on it, it feels less like an attempt to defend him and more like a way to hate on and spite Toriel.

Seriously. So much of his character basically just feels like someone going 'fuck you toriel. I'm giving EVERYTHING to asgore.'

It's... Really weird?

Asgore having a way out of killing humans is an interesting concept! Outertale takes place 500 years in the future compared to undertale, so the idea that they have the resources and technology to do that is kinda cool and in theory, exploring this idea sounds really fun. In practice though, it feels like it was mostly done to make Toriel out to be an asshole for no reason and to laugh at her for ever assuming he would've really killed anyone (despite... Y'know. Telling everyone that's what he was doing.)

He just. Completely moved on from Toriel without a second thought seemingly, and doesn't even look that affected by seeing her turn up again - meanwhile SHE'S got crumpled up tea recipes in the trash and all the Sad Divorced Energy - it doesn't really fit either of them! Toriel wasn't really given a reason to miss him like that, and I think even if he DID fully move on, he'd be way happier to see her than that.

All his leading statements on how she must feel in LV1 pacifist sucked ass also, especially with the way she kinda just agreed that yeah, she feels like shit for not trusting that he'd suddenly do a 180 and not hurt anyone (AGAIN. AFTER HE CONTINUED TO LET EVERYONE BELIEVE THIS) and that she must feel unworthy of being a mother. She hadn't even said half of this in front of him yet! He put words in her mouth! That in itself would be fine (social blunders are pretty normal for asgore after all) but it... Wasn't treated like that. It was handled as if this was a sweet and compassionate thing for him to say which... Yikes.

And ofc he gets to adopt frisk, and monster kid, and get to have Asriel live with him! His fatherhood is never called to question in undertale, but ofc Toriel's motherhood has to be here. Hell, despite their divorced status, if you talk to gerson in tpe it's highly implied frisk asks if asgore would start aging again if he became their dad! Idk, all of this part just reeked of Toriel hate and nothing more. Asgore is just yet another character to get sanded down and de-clawed and it sucks. So much of what makes him interesting is his mistakes and flaws and how they impact him, y'know?

Twinkly

I wanna start this by saying I don't think his writing is too bad. It's not amazing by any means but by outertale standards, he's one of the better written characters. That being said, Flowey is my favourite character of all time so I'm still gonna be critical.

So they did save the goat. Save the goat aus really aren't my thing nowadays - I feel like so often people act like he's a separate person to Flowey entirely and act like the alarm clock app dialogue doesn't exist. Asriel didn't end the story as a doomed tragedy fated to fade away! Flowey ended the story as someone who finally got closure on the loss of his best friend, and can finally learn to move on, even if it takes him a while to adjust. I don't think he needs to be a goat again for that.

That being said, I know these kinda aus are a big wish fulfilment thing for a lot of the fandom that aren't even necessarily something people want to be canon as much as they just wanna explore the idea and see him truly happy, so I won't judge that element too harshly. People are allowed to have fun, and I think save the goat can be fine if it respects him as flowey rather than separating them.

I really like that they allow Asriel to be fucked up and an asshole rather than him soft rebooting into some Sweet Perfect Little Prince once he returns to his old form, like so many other save the goat takes. Even in lv0's ending he struggles to bite back insults and mean comments aimed at Monster Kid which is... Admittedly kinda refreshing! There's definitely some flowey (or I guess in this case, twinkly) behaviour that still comes through here and I'm glad. This carried over to chaotic, too. While his characterisation wasn't perfect, this at least felt like twinkly obtaining a few form and continuing to play with the world, rather than your standard Asriel take. I also really liked that he remembers and acknowledges chaotic if done before pacifist, that was neat and adds to his character (as far as this game goes) I think.

However, onto the biggest, glaring issue I have with him.

Why. Why does he exist.

No, seriously.

In its attempt to make the world perfect, a world that blatantly only exists so the creator could make a save the goat ending, mind, there's no reason for the goat to need to be saved at all. Nor for him to exist after dying back when Chara lived with the dreemurrs.

Asgore isn't killing humans, so the souls don't need to be absorbed by anyone. Frisk can just enter the archive and lend their power to destroy the forcefield themselves, so there's no ultimatum like there is in undertale - there's no implied tradeoff of Frisk's life for the freedom of monsters without twinkly's intervention. In undertale, flowey's messing around opened up an ending that would've otherwise been impossible, something that worked for everyone.

Without him existing at all here, frisk could've broken the barrier just fine. All it really added to pacifist was a couple extra boss fights and asgore being dead for two minutes. And him being saved I guess but again, there's no real story justification for him being here EXCEPT to pat yourself on the back for saving him.

Why was he created? In undertale it's pretty clear - they wanted a vessel to hold all the souls in for now during the true lab experiments. He exists because Alphys selected the first flower to ever grow in the garden and injected it with determination that she extracted from the human souls.

... But all the humans are... Alive and well in outertale? They don't need a vessel to contain their souls. They don't need to extract any determination from anyone. Again, why do they HAVE vials of determination? And why did she inject one into a flower?

AND THAT'S THE OTHER BIG THING. It's established she and sans injected a starling flower for... Whatever reason. SO WHY THE HELL IS TWINKLY A CARTOON STAR?!

This point makes absolutely no sense at all. He looks absolutely nothing like a starling flower nor does he behave like a flower at all, which is confusing if that's what he started as. Honestly, I think it would've made more sense to just keep him as Flowey if they were gonna include him at all, and just have his appearance reflect a starling flower instead of a golden flower.

This applies to his fight too. Mechanically I think it's AWESOME, but the visuals are... Just very very boring. A huge part of why his fight in the original is so good it's the bizarre and chaotic nature of it, the horror elements, and the way so much of flowey's trauma in terms of how he was created and the things he finds scary was put on blast for all to see. The combination of mechanical and organic elements, all the plants and insects... Idk, just going 'hmm he's a star. Let's have him go through a star life cycle' is boring, there's no visual appeal.

If his creation is so vague and wishy washy, this would've been a great opportunity to flesh it out more. How was he created? What kinds of technology and machinery did alphys use to put all this together? How did she (or roman????? unclear) get the determination? What does twinkly remember?

That leads me onto a tangentially related topic - his trauma. I... Don't think this was shown very well. He talks a bit about BEING traumatised from the lab, but telling isn't the same as showing and canon flowey is terrible at hiding it, whereas I'd just as easily believe outertale Asriel made it up for sympathy points. He never really projects, he doesn't force anyone else to experience anything like he did, nothing like that. He's just a cocky asshole who likes killing, and who eventually decides to start being nice.

This game constantly seemed to be speedrunning ways to get him from being twinkly to being Asriel as quickly as possible in almost every single route which... Huh???? It's weird. Would've been nice to let him be a star more rather than just Asriel...

(final amendment bc I lost a huge chunk of this essay originally and had to rewrite it, and I'm realising I didn't manage to fit this in this time... How does a single monster soul let him get his Asriel form again? Sure he's still treated as if soulless and it doesn't make him a good person, but if he was 'so tired of being a star', why hadn't he tried doing this sooner? It makes no sense...)

For a game that exists to give him a good ending, it's so ironic how little he needs to exist at all in this world. Just goes to show what it looks like when you go too far with 'fixing' things or removing stuff you seem 'too problematic' for the sake of being wholesome or whatever.

Chara

Speaking of which... Look I'm just gonna say it. This version of Chara sucks so bad.

Chara is one of my favourite characters - they're really interesting, morally grey, and a fascinating way for undertale as a game to interface with us as players.

They're a child who likely saw the worst of humanity, then found themselves in a home with family who genuinely loved them once they fell down and met the monsters. Their intense saviour complex made them feel like the best way to help their family was to sacrifice their own life to get enough souls to break them free (and once they realised they had control, get payback against the humans while they were at it). They could be mean-spirited and a prankster. They valued efficiency HIGHLY. Their favourite number was nine because it's the limit, the absolute, a way to stop hurting and to stop others hurting.

And by doing geno, you can push this fixation on stats further. Max out all your stats. Gain power. Get stronger. Become invincible. Nobody can hurt any more if the world is gone. And ofc, they stand as the final arbiter of consequences for the player. Your punishment for killing everyone and for pushing them into believing it needs to be completed. Chara both IS is and is separate from us in a way that can't really be fully disentangled and it's really, really cool.

Anyway, enough gushing about undertale Chara. What's outertale Chara in comparison?

... Nothing.

They're nothing.

Outertale Chara narrates occasionally. They're a ghost that follows frisk around, but aren't confined to that, and have been actively wandering the underground since their death. They also still have a SOUL for some reason? This part doesn't really make sense at all.

Other than sacrificing themself and maybe wanting to take out a few humans after Asriel absorbs them, they don't do anything that could be considered bad ever. The most devious thing they ever do is snatch Asriel's diary to leave a silly comment in there when they first arrive at the outpost (sans does this with Toriel's phone in undertale tpe for comparison lmao). Despite what Asriel seems to believe, Chara is completely absent from the chaotic route - never getting corrupted, never caring about our stats, never wanting to hurt anyone, never even trying to make us face any consequences. They're just... Not here. For a character so prevalent in the murder based route of undertale this is fucking wild.

They all but vanish if you so much as say something slightly mean to someone, too! It's strange, makes no sense, and just like with sans, it feels like they overcompensated waaaaaaay too much for the people who insist they're evil. On top of that, if you do chaotic before lv0, they don't even remember chaotic happening! They'd may as well have just been a member of the ghost family who likes following Frisk around when they're especially nice. Like Asgore and alphys, they've been sanded down and de-clawed to be 'wholesome' and 'perfect', and it just results in a bland, boring character who loses anything that made them interesting, nuanced and fun.

'Chara wasn't the greatest person'... Why, though? They don't have enough substance in this game for that line to really have as much impact.

Frisk

I'm gonna be honest - I actually ADORED their frisk at first, and I think that's because I started with a neutral run and ended up drawing them a lot. They felt silly and mischievous and interesting, and this continued into chaotic. They seem pretty chill with what's going on but then take that even further by being hilariously affectionate with Asriel and still doing silly things like being up for picking up the electrodampening fluid or drinking directly out of the fountain. They felt like a funny little mini-kris (save for being okay with all the murder ofc).

Then uhhhhhhh... That's when I experienced the second chaotic ending, the one without Asriel, as well as lv0. I feel like they definitely DID try to lean on the Kris angle on purpose in terms of their feelings on being controlled and stuff but it???? Just doesn't work very well? There's no ambiguity to this version of frisk once you've seen all the routes. Just like EVERYONE ELSE, they're just a perfect little angel who would never do anything wrong and anything past lv0 is just the eeeeeevil player influence or whatever. Come on, we have deltarune for that kinda approach to control 😭 (though even then, Kris is a layered and interesting character who isn't goodness and innocence personalised, and that's why they're cool)

In undertale, we have no idea what frisk is like as a person. WOULD they spare everyone without our influence? Would they kill? Would they be a scared child lashing out in self defense? Would they run from everything, then give up and let themselves die permanently somewhere? We just don't know! We're not supposed to know! It feels like it went back to the very early fandom interpretation where frisk is Good And Sweet and Innocent while Chara is evil incarnate - except this time they're BOTH the former.

It's a contradiction too! Why in the Asriel chaotic route are they so down to follow him, and pet him, and hug him every chance they get if they don't like all the stuff we're making them so? The player has no influence over Twinkly. Every single thing he did, he chose to do, and yet even if the only time frisk has seen him was him destroying their mercy button and forcing them to kill for him, they seem to love him to pieces and go along with whatever he says happily. What.

I feel like they didn't know what to do with Frisk here at all and it shows.

Other characters

This has been ridiculously long, but to quickly go over non-major characters... They did very few things to make Roman seem interesting, the amount of stuff hes implied to have helped Asgore with just reduces even further any influence or impact alphys had, and (a smaller nitpick)... Why didn't he use times new roman as a font when we DID see him speak in the archive/on the signal stars? It's such a missed opportunity...

Burgerpants was fun... Kinda. Developing him like this feels like something that should've happened DURING the actual game rather than before it though because it made him feel like a whole other person entirely? The poisoned food was very funny though.

Why is Snowy now Stardrake when his dad hasn't changed at all and Crystal looks like any other snowdrake? That was bizarre.

I actually really liked the humans! Establishing them as actual characters was really fun, and I especially like justice. Justice, at least in my opinion, is probably the most interesting character in this whole game tbh - someone who tried to do good but ultimately caused more harm than good, while NOT downplaying it, showing the consequences directly, and showing them work to try to make things better. The way we don't grab their item like the others in the twinkly fight nor go through an area for them in the archive (and just talk to them instead) really adds to their intrigue - what are they like? Who did they know? Is there something they don't want us to see? How are they strong enough to not need us to grab their weapon at all to lend their help? I think it's get funny that the only character I'm fully praising is the clover-adjacent one. Justice outertale they could never make me hate you

(that being said... seeing the way this game is clearly just supposed to be a 'fix' for undertale does sour my thoughts on the humans a little. did they only do this bc they thought them NOT being full characters in ut was bad/a problem with it? 🥴 This applies to the additional monster kid story focus too).

Speaking of monster kid... Them being an orphan was clearly just a plot device to give asgore more kids and therefore feel like he won more than Toriel. Monster kid in undertale seems like they probably did have real and loving parents, and they have a sister too!!!! Would've been nice if they'd at least done something with their sister :(

This got... Way longer than I expected, so I'll stop here. But outertale definitely gave me an even bigger appreciation for other ut fangames. My gripes with deltatraveler section 3 feel much smaller in comparison now, if tsus misses the mark on Flowey later down the line they've at least already done most characters so much more justice, and it really puts into perspective all the heart and soul that went into kissy cutie, as well as its genuine love got the source material and characters.

Sorry outertale, you weren't for me. That being said, if anyone disagrees with any of this then that's fine! These are all just my opinions and feelings on it after going through all the routes and talking about it with friends. Media is always gonna resonate with different people in different ways and that's a good thing! If your perspective on any of this is different and if you had way more fun with it, I'm glad you did and I genuinely wish I could've felt the same. I feel like at the very least, making it has probably been a great learning experience for the devs and I really hope they carry on making games and improving their skills. Hope y'all are thriving and having fun regardless 💙

[bra1nw0rmz]

Hello!! A question for you, not in a offensive light at all but I wanna ask why you like pavlevi so much and how come it doesn't make you uncomfortable with the age gap? We don't know pavs age which is fair enough but.. You get my point! I still love em tho. Maybe I'm a bit conflicted

I’m so sorry but you made a fatal mistake of giving me an opportunity to yap about them ( but thank you for being very nice abt the question, it means a lot :3 )

Slight rant under more… tried my hardest to keep it short but I have so much to say abt these fuckass losers 😔

For the reasons why I like Pavlevi so much. It’s because they are my two favourite characters, I need to psychoanalyse them and make them trauma bond or I’ll DIE.

Levi has the solitary soul, he’s been alone for most of his life. What he seriously needs is connection. And I think most of the cast just can’t fundamentally understand him. (I’m not sure if I’m being biased and self projecting here because of my experiences being autistic but yeah 😭) And I genuinely think most of that cast would look at Levi with pity. Almost as if he can’t think for himself. And I think Levi hates it. It’s really a hard feeling to pin down, but it feels weirdly dehumanising?? Like say Karin or smth would mean well but it still feels like you’re being hang up to dry? And I think Levi fucking hates it when everyone is looking at him like that. And the pity ppl have for him comes from a place of being so disconnected from him. Most of them can’t really understand him or what he’s gone through I suppose?? It’s not their faults, it’s just how it is. Society has literally thrown him to wolves. His government striped him of his autonomy, has used him for it’s benefit and now it’s people look at him like this couldn’t have been avoided, that it’s something so sad, to be pitied. Which is also why I love pavlevi bc Pav is the only person that Levi can truely connect with. Someone else who’s gone through the same bullshit, torn apart by the same world. They are both cut from the same stone, just at different stages and coping in different ways which I think is interesting. And it’s so sad because why the hell does it have to be some Bremen fuck that actually treats him like a person and not just something to pity.

As for Pav’s side of the coin. I just really like to torture him. Due to what he’s gone through and seen, being in the army around the same age as Levi, if not younger. I feel like he’d see Levi as being fit to make his own damn decisions. It’s none of Pav’s business, Levi can do whatever and he honestly does not give a shit. But as they get closer I feel like I think Levi brings out all the guilt and shame Pav bottled up and pushed far down in his psyche. Like… he’s had to kill so many just like Levi, all to even get a chance at killing Kaiser. All of it being a glorified elaborate destructive suicide mission. And he’s very fucked up about it. Dread sets in for Pav because??? He’s a terrible person??? He’s had to wear this mask for so long, he doesn’t even know who he really is. Levi is just troubled and has been put in one unfair situation after another. Pav couldn’t move forward and purposely put himself in those situations and did those fucked up things. I also think it’s interesting to think of them as like an intimacy of convenience. Bc they both know they have no future and might die at any second, but it’s better to hold someone’s hand than be alone when you die.

Other tidbits!!

They are fucking funny, like c’mon getting bossed around by the enemy, and a LIEUTENANT on top of that, is fucking hilarious

I feel like you got this from the rant b4 but the Angst potential is crazyyyyy

Pav teasing Levi and making him all flustered, HELLOO??? I love blushy levi

Pav traversing caring for someone else that isn’t himself bc he’s fundamentally a self serving person gggghhh

IFUCKING LOVE DOOMED RELATIONSHIPS RAHHHHHHHHHHH

The way their heavily different personalities clash would be fun

Having someone there who's gone through what you've suffered through is so comforting. you're not alone anymore….. IM SICK IN THE HEAD

I think Levi should be allowed to kiss boys as a treat

I also think he should be allowed to shoot Pav in the head as a treat

As for the age gap.. I don’t like it at all ofc. 😭😭 It’s definitely not ideal. And I can 100% understand how that can be a deal breaker….. but I also feel like people baby Levi too much? He has 1 breakdown because he just got back from war, is going through heroin withdrawals, everyone in his home town has been turned into violent monsters, he’s hearing voices and someone just tried to kill him and he gets labeled a wimp. You put a guy in the worst situation ever and he cries ONCE and ppl call him a crybaby and infantilise him 💀 He’s stronger than people give him credit for… but that’s more of a problem with fandom than anything.

Also like… I tried….. I really tried to not like pavlevi….. But I’m way too fucking autistic abt them. It’s so bad that when I see them I get an adrenaline rush and do laps around my kitchen. I’m so serious. These guys are like pseudo drugs to me, I need to chop my head off.

And ofc I wouldn’t support 18 and 30 smth irl, that’s fucking gross……… And I would say the same for a stalker and her victim.. because look, I love S4marina, but it’s basically in the same boat as Pavlevi to me..

This being a fandom that should primarily be adults, I feel like ppl should understand that. Yk, having better common sense and media literacy to understand this stuff ain’t okay irl. I still realise it’s not everyone’s thing and I’m not trying to convince ppl to like it, just explain why I like it (NO ONE UNDERSTANDS THEM LIKE I DO, I NEED TO DIE)…. Anyway uuhm I understand it makes some ppl uncomfy, which is valid! Just don’t go into spaces where you’ll be exposed to it ig??? If you seriously don’t like it, the block button/blocking tags is right there. I do that too !!

[otogariado]

mentioning LOST's church ending got me riled up about the racism in LOST again lol. i obviously am aware that some actors just did not return to production for possibly other reasons, but also especially in the case of harrold perrineau (michael dawson) he felt like his character (and walt, his son) was treated like shit by the writing. and he was absolutely right. i've already made posts about this (will try to dig them up later), but michael was treated absolutely bullshit and unfairly wrt the story. michael betrayed them and killed two people, yes, but what did he do it for but to protect his son? he felt like nobody gave enough fucks about walt and there was some truth to that claim. his whole character arc is about being a dad to walt and their improving relationship over the course of being stuck on the island, so of course he would do that. it just makes sense.

which is why i don't think it's all that fair to punish him for it immensely in the narrative. harrold perrineau said it himself that he didn't want michael and walt to be another case of the absent black father stereotype [citation needed, i'll look for it but he said it in an interview] yet that's what he ended up being anyway. after his and walt's escape from the island, apparently walt cast him away because he doesn't agree with what his father did—which i actually think its interesting to explore: walt disagreeing with michael's actions and trying to grapple with it, but i don't think separating him from his dad was the best writing choice to make. walt is being punished for caring about his son by making his son be the one to cast him away. you can argue it's supposed to be tragic, michael is supposed to be a tragic character, but with the context surrounding michael's character? there's better ways to make his character be tragic than this.

which brings me to his next punishment. i was happy to see michael again on the kahana (just happy to see him in general), but it didn't last long when he gets killed, sacrificing himself to prevent/prolong the kahana's explosion from happening. (put a 📌 on this bc it's similar to how sayid dies and we'll come back to that later.) michael dies here and walt doesn't know about this. and then michael joins as part of the whispers, his soul trapped on the island (presumably forever) and that's why he's not in the church ending.

i'm gonna be frank. michael being trapped on the island because of his guilt or remorse or perhaps repenting for his sins is just bullshit to me. a lot of characters seen in the flash sideways and in the church ending are characters who've done "bad things". it's bullshit to have michael be the only one doomed to pay for his misdeeds forever. his misdeeds for... killing two people. not that killing two people is Nothing, but moreso if you examine the circumstances it's hardly anything to be damned eternally for.

remember the 📌 we had wrt sayid and michael? both of them died trying to prevent an explosion from reaching everybody else. which makes this more egregious imo. i can say 1000 things about sayid's arc (points to url), but this is about michael and not him, so i'll just focus on this: sayid was grappling with "being a bad person" for torturing and killing so many people. he worked as an assassin for ben. and yet, somehow, you're telling me sayid is not being damned eternally for his misdeeds but michael is? if you don't see the BS in that i don't know what to tell you.

i'm also aware why some characters don't appear any more re:conflicts with their actors (or just availabilities or other reasons for declining to come back), but even then arguably any conflicts with harrold perrineau stemmed from a justified place because of how michael was treated.

i think mr eko had a more dignified arc (he's one of my fav characters, thematically speaking) and honestly he had some of the rawest shit i've ever heard:

I ask for no forgiveness father for I have not sinned, I have only done what I needed to do to survive. A small boy once asked me if I was a bad man, if I could answer him now I would tell him, that when I was a young boy I killed a man to save my brothers life. I am not sorry for this, I am proud of this. I did not ask for the life that I was given but it was given none the less, and with it I did my best.

but despite this it doesn't change the fact that his absence in the church ending is very noticeable. he had meaningful connections with charlie, with locke, and interestingly like michael he kind of parallels sayid but this time thematically through their arcs. sayid is constantly burdened with feeling like he's a bad person and resigning to it as some sort of self-fulfilled prophecy, but mr eko is very firm about how he sees himself as not necessarily a bad man, just a man whose hands were forced because of the cards he was dealt. i wish we could have seen a more direct parallel between them, because it would've been interesting. back to the main point: i think it's such a missed opportunity for mr eko to not be here. especially since even after his death, hurley was able to communicate with his ghost, showing that he still had connections with his fellow losties even long after his death.

ana lucia being "not ready to move on" is interesting. but ultimately you can't help but raise a few eyebrows at it anyway. you can argue that, unlike mr eko she died an unresolved death, but most of the LOST characters died with an unresolved death. (she was killed early.) that's the whole point of the sideways segments. so what makes ana lucia so different from the others? yeah she killed shannon, but that was completely a freak accident. her people (the tailies) were being picked off one by one by the other so she was understandably on edge. she was kind of a hated character but i think a lot of it is just racism and misogyny combined tbh. (LOST is...notorious for a lot of misogynistic character writing decisions.) ana lucia was just as complex and morally "ambiguous" as the rest of them. i find the decision to make her corrupt in the sideways segments interesting (negative). cz like, there was never any indication she was like this in real life. what does that corruption symbolize? because obviously that corruption is a key to why she "can't move on yet". what exactly is she supposed to be repenting for? they hinted at a possible direction her arc is going towards before killing her off, ie. her ultimately choosing not to kill "henry gale" because she no longer wants blood on her hands. again, in a way, she's just like sayid! someone who decided they'd turn away from ceaseless violence. only right afterwards she got killed. so what does she need repenting for so much that she's left out of the church ending? much to think about.

i don't really know how to conclude this post. but my main point is that the lack of these characters during the church ending is and has racist implications. (again, i understand the casting issues, but it's still a writing decision you can critique as a viewer at the end of the day). i'll try to find the old posts i made last year abt michael and mr eko and their parallels to sayid and link them here (and self reblog).

edit: go read/look up "burn it down". it details a lot of the behind the scenes mistreatment of the staff (including racism and sexism), including actors and writers. the quote from an interview from harold perrineau that i mentioned was also linked in a reblog. (post link)

[aipilosse]

Why Pengolodh of all people is able to stoke such rage within me on his behalf is so bizarre. Like, he's a non-character, a name and some facts Tolkien came up with in his carousel of in-universe authors to keep the layers of narration he loved, but the way he is maligned in this fandom is tragic.

I've touched on before that treating the Silmarillion as if it were written and relayed by a single author is entirely incorrect so I won't go into that here, and honestly I'm sure I've said this all before BUT

The idea that Penny is for some reason *least* suited to write most of the events of the Silmarillion is PATENTLY ridiculous, and I would challenge anyone who says that to a duel, either intellectual or physical (even in my current weakened state... Tulkas is on my side I cannot fail). First of all, the one place where nobody else knows anything about what happened is GONDOLIN, so I think if anyone is going to be writing about most of the events of the Silm, they either need to be from Gondolin or need to live in Sirion with survivors.

OH WHAT'S THAT.... SIRION?!?

Yeah, Sirion! The place where not only are there survivors of Gondolin, but there are survivors of Doriath and Nargothrond AND any remnants of the Beorians, Hadorian, and Haladin. Like, I can think of no other place where the Mannish legends would be able to be recounted, and put on the same level, as the Elvish ones.

"But the Feanorians," you squall. "He's so *unfair* to them, and how could he know ANYTHING about them? That's why we know sooo little about the Feanorians and why they are soooo unjustly maligned."

Ok, first of all, ya basic. Second of all, HE HAS ACCESS TO FEANORIAN SOURCES TOO.

There is Celebrimbor, and all the other former followers of Curufin and Celegorm that could of course tell Penny what was up in Himlad and afterwards while he was in Gondolin. Also, there were probably Feanorians who lived after turning on Maedhros and Maglor during the sack of the Havens who could fill in what happened after The Luthien Incident. So, actually, Pengolodh had multiple sources to literally all of the essential events of the Silmarillion.

OH YEAH THE SACK OF THE HAVENS. Despite living through what is described as the worst atrocity of elf v elf, despite having people we KNOW were friends with him KILLED during that fight, despite having his home destroyed by fellow Noldor, he *really* gives Maglor and Maedhros every excuse. "they felt bad, they're so tired, love grew between them and their victims" etc etc. The Silm is sympathetic to the Feanorians and you can't convince me otherwise (you're not some crazy rebel because you like them!) (They are also Doomed by the narrative, but attributing that to an in-universe author requires getting into the territory of events that occurred not actually occurring and... what's the point if you're going to say that the things that the book is about didn't happen? why are you even here?)

I see people say that the bias is against the 3 Cs, Caranthir especially, which is an ABSURD statement to make in conjunction with the 'Pengolodh, sole conveyer of the Silm' theory. Like, Pengolodh most likely never met any of the 3 Cs or if he did he was very young -- why would he dislike them more than the brothers that massacred his friends? I think the theory here is that he's just such a huge Turgon fan and just absorbed Turgon's opinions on the 3 Cs, which is just conjecture on top of conjecture with no solid footing.

I think there is more credence to him being biased against Maeglin on account of the Fall of Gondolin. But, I ask you, is it really *bias* when the guy is partially responsible for the sack of the city you spent most of your life in and likely the deaths of most of your friends and relatives? And Maeglin too in the published Silm is not without his good qualities! If you hate someone, it can be very hard to admit they're handsome and smart, but Penny does not have that issue.

Anyway, justice for Pengolodh. You didn't write the whole thing, Penny, but what you did write was I'm sure fucking fantastic.

[mystarsohee]

AAAA ANOTHER KPOP AGERE ACC HELLO ! i was wondering maybe could u write anything for cg!eunseok? （/｡＼) maybe he plans an outing but his tiny is too shy to go out when small? thank u !!!

don't you worry

genre: fluff, like a pinch of angst

its springtime, the weathers nice, and theres a new dessert place down the road eunseok wants to visit. just one thing, you're feeling a bit too shy.

!!! non-sexual agere, only cg name used is seokie.

cg!eunseok gn!reader

eunseok aimlessly scrolls on his phone, while his other hand softly massages your head. a cartoon plays on the tv, which has kept you entertained for the past thirty minutes. you enjoy moments like this. comfortable silence, with affection from eunseok.

during his doom-scroll, he stumbles across a recommended post on his feed. "Memories Café, now open! Serving an assortment of cakes, churros, and pastries!" he looks down at you. he knows very well how much you love desserts. like, love desserts. eunseok knows you're going to enjoy the cute café. so, he saves the post and looks up the location. its on the next block! checking the time, its almost lunch time.

"baby, its almost time to eat lunch. what're you feeling today?"

too focused on the colorful show playing, you shrug. honestly you don't know what to eat. eunseok makes a move to get up, probably to reheat the leftovers from last nights cooking session together.

you're right, as you hear the microwave start. you get up to follow, and be good by helping set the table. you watch eunseok take the food out.

"thank you seokie!" you happily say to him.

"you're very welcome sweetheart. oh, i wanted to show you something!" he pulls out his phone, and opens the post showing the café.

"cute right?"

"oh yes, very cute. lets go some time seokie!"

the both of you continue to eat your food as you giggle together about various things. eunseok always enjoys spending time with you, creating moments neither of you will forget. he admires you while you slightly tease him for the sauce on his cheek. wait-

"huh? sauce?" he wipes his face while you laugh at him.

after your meal together, you play for some time while eunseok cleans up the table. after he finishes, he comes and joins you in the living room.

"hey my baby, are you up for a walk? we can go get some dessert? you've been so good lately, i think you deserve it. the weathers so nice too!" he says to you. you have to say yes right?

"uhhhh.." you think for a moment. "not really seokie.."

"oh? you don't want any dessert? thats a first." eunseok is stunned. you've never denied dessert! even if you finished all of your dinner, which usually makes you full, you'd still happily munch on some sweet treats. he makes a face at you, not to tease you or anything of that sort. just because you don't usually react this way!

you see his face, and your heart drops. he looks disappointed. you didn't want to make him upset! you quickly jump up and abandon the toys you were playing with.

"seokie.. don't be sad! im sorry." you say, cupping his face, the same way eunseok would when you were sad.

"hm? im not sad baby, im just a bit confused. you love dessert and going on walks!" he says, fixing his face now realizing how it came off wrong. his heart warms, seeing you mimick his strategies to comfort you onto him. he gives you a kiss right on the nose, and you smile a bit.

"i do want dessert.." you slowly start. eunseok looks at you, awaiting your response. you stuff your face into his chest. he hears some mumbles coming from you, but is unable to decipher it.

"use your words my love." he tries to get you to confess whats on your mind. softly rubbing your back, you move your face back into his view.

"only wanna see you seokie.." immediately you shove your face back into the warmth that is his chest. eunseok understands now!

"oh is that it? my tiny baby is feeling shy, and just wants seokie. i get it!" he says, like a light bulb lit up inside his brain! he explains to you that the two of you can go another day, and to not feel bad because the café will be open for a long time! after some more hugs, and a few reassuring words, you start to drift off.

eunseok carries you like a feather, your seokie is just so strong! you feel yourself being placed on the bed. a nap would be nice right now.. you think to yourself as you slowly transition into dreamland.

lucky for eunseok, you're quite the heavy sleeper! when he accidentally drops a loud pan while you're sleeping, you're still out like a light! when he accidentally screams while playing a video game, you don't even budge. he uses this to his advantage, and decides to see how fast he can run to the café, get some treats, and come back. he doesn't worry as much, since you know to facetime him whenever you wake up and hes not in the room. the two of you prefer facetime much more than regular calls, or texts.

before he puts his shoes on, he quickly runs to give you a kiss before he leaves.

"don't you worry my love. i'll be back before you know it. i love you." he whispers, hoping you get the message despite the fact you're sound asleep. grabbing his phone and wallet, hes out the door.

he started to jog, enjoying the nice day and a chance to get some exercise in while in the process of making his baby happy. whatever hes doing, as long as its for you, he would be the happiest man ever while doing it. as he approached Memories Café, he stopped to take a small breather. the jog was nothing to him, as it took quite literally less than 5 minutes to get there.

walking inside, the place had cute art and decor all around. he could just imagine watching you look at all of the cute decorations, you were easily fascinated. the barista called out next, signaling it was his turn to order.

he looked at the menu briefly, already knowing what you'd enjoy.

"hey uh, can i get 2 churros, 2 strawberry shortcake slices, oh, and an iced coffee. a to go order by the way." eunseok ordered. the barista completed his order, and gave him a ticket labeled "7" as well as his receipt.

standing around for a few minutes, and taking some photos to show you, he heard the barista call out his number. the order was packaged nicely in a cute pastel colored bag, oh he knew you'd think that was the most adorable thing in the world (we all know the most adorable thing is you) the iced coffee is placed next to it. taking another photo of it, he picks the food up, thanks the barista, and is on his way out.

afraid of ruining the food, eunseok walks home instead of jogs and checks his phone incase you notified him that you were awake.

the walk back took a little less than 10 minutes, and he entered your home. he set the bag and his iced coffee down on the table, and searched for any sign of you being awake. not noticing any, he heads towards the bedroom. in a slightly different position, but still very much asleep, he joins you on the bed. wanting you to sleep for a little longer, he opens his phone and decides to post the photo he took of the bag onto his social media. captioned "for my 💗"

you start to stir, probably because you sensed his return. you turned towards him, and opened your eyes slowly. a smile appeared on your face,

"hi seokie" you say, still a bit drowsy from your slumber.

"hey love. good sleep?" you nod and hum in agreement. the both of you cuddle for a bit, until you were ready to get out of bed. the time was in between lunch and dinner now, so he lead you towards the kitchen.

"i got you something baby, its on the table." he reveals. your face lights up, and you start to walk a bit faster to the table. you gasp, its a bag with the logo of that café eunseok showed you!

"seokie!!!! you got me dessert!" you look back at him with a smile, but hes already smiling down at you.

"yup. we can eat it together, just us two! i bought two of everything." he smiles even more, and pulls out a chair for you. grabbing the food in the bag, you gasp again. these desserts look so yummy!

"churro or cake? you can have one now and eat the other after dinner later." he gives you an option, since he doesn't want you to be too full when dinnertime comes around.

why did he give you the hardest decision ever? ultimately, you decide on the cake. eunseok hands it to you, and you thank him with another smile on your face.

he grabs one of the churros for himself, and you both take a bite of your desserts. a mutual "mmmm" after tasting how delicious they were!

"you wanna bite?" eunseok says, with some churro still in his mouth. you nod while swallowing the bite of your cake currently in your mouth. he picks up the other end of the churro, and lines it up with your mouth so that you're both eating a side! you think this is hilarious, so you giggle after biting a piece.

the two of you share more bites and laughs, knowing that maybe next time, you'll be up for a walk to the café. but for now, eunseok is willing to give up some quiet time, all to make you happy.

author note: my first request!!! i hope this lives up to what you had in mind when requesting :3 i think this scenario is so cutee!!!!! agh now im lowk obsessed with cg!eunseok .. as always, feedback is appreciated 💕

[maspers]

Ranking the Miracucast by how they'd react to being chosen as the next holder of One For All

Marinette: She would scream and cry and do everything in her power to avoid becoming the next Symbol of Peace. She would then proceed to be one of the most beloved and powerful Heroes the world has ever seen. 9/10

Alya: Depends on when she gets the Quirk. Early Seasons Alya is all about fame and branding, and she'd be loved by the populace as a hero but make a decent amount of rookie mistakes. Late Seasons Alya would be way more competent as a One For All user, but she also knows how to keep things subtle. I can see her becoming an Underground Hero like Eraserhead. Either way, 7/10

Adrien: Yes. 10/10

Nino: He would be very confused as to why he's being chosen, but if his friends were in danger he'd do it. Would much prefer to focus on his music than hero work, and as such would be known for the former more than the latter. 3/10

Chloe: She would try so, so, so hard to be the ultimate superhero that everyone loves. Unfortunately we saw how that went down in canon. She has the potential to great things, but motives will always be a serious problem for her. 4/10

Sabrina: Getting One For All might be what it takes to get her out of her shell. She'd never reach the fame and reputation that All Might and Deku have, but she would treat her powers with utmost respect and very few people would have bad things to say about her as a hero. 7/10

Mylene: She would be very confused, and very scared, and honestly would probably reject the Quirk outright. If forced to take it she'd be great, but I just can't see her wanting to hold on to it. She prefers to change the world in other ways. 3/10

Ivan: Everyone would doubt him due to making assumptions, but he would surpass them all and come into his own as a beloved and respected hero, albeit one that's pretty intimidating. He wouldn't really focus on quirks other than the super strength, but hey, it worked for All Might! 8/10

Rose: Be afraid. Be very afraid. 6/10

Juleka: Guaranteed to be more of the Underground hero type. Possibly might go full vigilante. She would use the Quirks very differently than most would expect, so people won't make the connection to past One For All holders. She does not want to have a body count, but definitely has one. 6/10

Kim: Kim is a total doofus who would immediately gain a rep as a reckless hero who causes lots of collateral damage but makes up for it by just trying really hard. Deep down he will feel unworthy and self-conscious. Local Himbo has internal turmoil and Does Not Deserve It. 5/10

Max: Would reject the Quirk outright and only accept it in the most dire of circumstances. Max does not want a messy complicated Quirk like One For All. Max likes simple and efficient, stuff he can manipulate from the get go. One For All is not simple. Give it to someone else. 0/10

(side note: while Max does not want One For All, Markov absolutely does, and finding a way to give Markov One For All would make for an interesting challenge. But Max still isn't taking it.)

Alix: Would politely decline taking it. Because she's already received it (and passed it on after engaging in brief shenanigans with it) in the future, and knows it is not her battle to fight in the present. Alix/10

Nathaniel: Please let this poor boy have some sleep. He is very tired and very angry and accepted the Quirk on impulse and really doesn't want to do this. Eventually manages to figure out his niche being a artist/spraypaint hero (Alix helps), and may or may not accidentally trigger the downfall of a corrupt government. 7/10

Lila: She obtained it under false pretenses and we are all doomed. There's a slim chance she'll do some hero work for the sake of her image, but like. The cons will definitely outweigh the pros. This was a mistake. 1/10

Luka: Accepted One For All during a time of great need, and knew the moment he received it that it was something Important. He puts on a front of being chill, but treats his work as a Hero with the utmost of seriousness and will do what has to be done. Like his sister, he would actively strive to not have a body count, but definitely would have one. 9/10

Kagami: She's a superhero with a sword. Awesomeness is the default. She will have no idea what she is doing but like. She has a sword. Stuff is getting done. 7/10

Marc: Look, you know Worm? You know Legend? One For All Marc would be like Legend except less hunk and more bishonen. The fangirls and fanboys will rejoice. Marc does not want all the attention, but he has it anyway. 6/10

Ondine: Kim accepts his role as the ultimate trophy boyfriend. Ondine would be competent, but she would also create even more collateral damage. 5/10

Aurore (New!): If there's one thing she knows, it's branding. She may not be known as a particularly powerful hero, but her branding would be top notch. When people figure out she's the latest successor she will OWN it and turn it into more branding. 5/10

Felix: Was likely offered One For All by someone who thought he was Adrien, and accepted it under that pretense. Would do a good job as a hero (and would give Adrien the credit in the process) but would figure out how to use all the Quirks very quickly and have a gig as a vigilante going on under a different identity, using different quirks to keep people in the dark. Very sus, Felix. You can be better than this. 2/10

Zoe: Look the populace would pick up on the fact that she's blonde and associated with America and immediately assume she's related to All Might. That's just going to happen. All Might will basically have to end up adopting her, if he's still around. She does not like this, but makes it work. 6/10

[angelsanarchy]

Alkaline: Euronymous x Y/N Series CH 17

Tagging: @ophelialaufey@madamemaximoff06@forever-not-gonna-sink@ajmiila02@liquidsmoothdomme@shady-the-simp @auggiethecreator @tempt-ress @blacksoul-27

Oystein had finally settled into his new apartment and had just gotten off the phone with his dad about the last payment for the record shop. He had decided to step away from focusing on making the next record to follow another one of his passions. Helvete was his new baby and his record label would be working out of the shop to expand the Black Metal genre to as many people as he possibly could.

He sat at his typewriter and placed the photo Y/n had left him with the day they last spoke on the desk to the left. He kept the old photo of himself, Y/n and Pelle just next to that one. The day she slugged him and wrote him off, she probably would have been surprised to know that he kept that photo in the inside pocket of his jacket.

He stared at the photo for a few moments before putting a piece of paper into the type writer.

"Y/n, Please read what I have to say before you toss this into the garbage. I know it's selfish of me to ask for anymore of your time but you have to know that what we had, in the beginning, that was real. All of the moments we shared where I could be myself with you- if I could have lived in those moments again, I wouldn't change a thing. You were right though, we were always doomed to fail. Our paths are just too different. I want to apologize for how I treated you the night you came to the show. I know the first time I watched Dea-"

Oystein pulls a bit of white out from the drawer and covers the beginning of his name before resuming.

"I know the first time I watched Pelle cut his arms, it was fucked up. I had no idea what to do or how to respond to that. Honestly, I've never really experienced anything like that before Pelle. I knew I couldn't let him know that because I feared it would only make him retreat more. Your response to it was normal and I'm sorry I treated you like it wasn't. I also want to apologize for how I reacted to you in the bar that night. I can't pretend I wasn't caught off guard by the guy you walked in with but that is no excuse for how I came at you. In the time that I spent not hearing your voice or seeing your face, I tried to block out all the things you made me feel. I tried to chalk it up to us being too different or this life scaring you away but that day after Pelle killed himself...I know I fucked up Y/n. I regret everything I've ever said or done that has hurt you even for a second because the only hurt you ever caused me was my own fault."

Oystein sat back in the chair, reading over what he had already written and felt incredibly vulnerable. A part of him really hopes she just trashes the letter and doesn't even bother reading it.

"I've decided to take a step back to focus more on other passions. I have started my own record label and will be operating it out of that corner shop down from Hammed's shop. I know you probably think I've done this to torment you but I've had my eye on that store for years. I want to take the creation of Black Metal and show people what it can truly be. Not all that extra, commercialized bullshit that people think it is now. I've always wanted to do this but I want to show people what we worked so hard on, what Pelle and I worked so hard on."

Oystein looked at the photo again and wished Pelle could have been here for the birth of Helvete. He thinks that a safe haven where he would never be alone is something that could have saved him.

"I know I'm just saying a lot of things that don't really mean shit to you but you were a big part of what kept me believing in myself. I hope maybe you'll give it a second chance and stop by the shop. I would love for you to see what I've created and give you a new look at what I love so much instead of wishing for its demise. I know it will never be what it was before but I feel a piece of me will always be tethered to wanting what could have been between us."

Oystein hated everything he wrote almost immediately but he couldn't just keep starting over. He wanted to send this letter before the shop actually opened in case she decided to show up and put him on blast.

"I know you'll probably always hate me and I understand why you do. I just hope you'll find a small place for me in your heart to at least try and be a better person in your eyes. Please, give me a chance to prove to you that I'm not the heartless monster you think I am."

He read it one last time before pulling it from the typewriter and signing the bottom of it. He would never admit that he actually followed her home one night just to have her address to send her this letter. He would take that to the grave. He knew this was a bad idea but he desperately needed something to keep him grounded. The nightmares he had after Pelle were unbearable. He had never been afraid of dwelling in the darkness until Pelle killed himself. Now he was worried he would sink into the darkness never to be found again. He wanted Y/n to be the one who kept him from losing himself entirely.

yours, Øystein 

[heliza24]

Hey, hope you’re doing well. I loved reading your analysis on Simon and Marcus. Speaking of those two, I’d like to read your take on their final confrontation in the last episode.

There’s a lot of mixed opinions on what Marcus said to Simon. Some would say that Marcus was absolutely correct in saying that Simon always plays the victim and loves the drama and that Simon needed to hear that. Others would say that Simon is a victim and that Marcus was out of line.

That line, “you see yourself as some victim among those rich brats” really rubbed me the wrong way. I’m not sure how Simon ending things with Marcus correlates to Marcus thinking Simon plays the victim at Hillerska. Plus it makes no sense too. What does Marcus even know about Simon? That he can sing, had an intimate video released, the prince screwed him over and he had an alcoholic father. He knows absolutely nothing about Simon’s social life at Hillerska. He never knew about the drug situation or the music room fight in season 2 episode 5. So where did that line come from? And if anyone was playing the victim here it’s Marcus. Simon warned him, he didn’t listen and then he got hurt. How are YOU not gonna listen then entirely blame someone for your decisions when you got hurt. Marcus can only blame himself.

Then the whole, “you say don’t want drama but that’s what turns you on”. Saying that to someone who just had their tape released is cruel. Like tf.

And honestly, was their relationship something to get upset over? They hung out 4 times, kissed 3 times (2 of which were initiated by Marcus), a bunch of ghosting and they never got to the talking phase. They know next to nothing about each other. And when they hung out, Simon looked uncomfortable and uninterested most of the time. I know some people can’t take the hint but Marcus was on another level of blind. And it doesn’t help that Simon already told him that he was not ready for anything serious. This “relationship” was doomed from the start.

What are your thoughts and analysis on Simon and Marcus’ final conversation? Thanks in advance for taking your time to answer.

Hey there anon! Thanks for sending me your thoughts about Simon and Marcus. I have to say I agree with you! I am in full sympathy with Simon through all of his and Marcus’s arguments, and I do agree that some of the things Marcus says are pretty cruel.  I dated someone a very long time ago, when I was not that much older than Simon, who treated me in the same way that Marcus treats Simon, so I find him pretty infuriating. And I think it means I have some insight into the dynamic of their relationship and how it breaks down.

In order to understand their final breakup scene, I actually think we need to backtrack to 2.3 when Simon first tries to end the relationship. To me this is the most enraging Marcus moment, and I think it illuminates the fundamental problem going on here. While Simon is trying to break up with Marcus, Marcus focuses on everything except Simon’s actual feelings in an effort to convince him not to leave. First it’s Wilhelm. Marcus thinks that Simon must be worried that he will hurt Simon in the same way Wilhelm did. Marcus claims to never have seen the tape (an assertion @bluedalahorse and I think might be a lie, but that’s headcanon), and assures Simon that he would never do something like that. Then it’s Simon’s family; he assumes that because Simon’s parents didn’t have a healthy relationship, Simon must not know how to appreciate a healthy partnership. This is the thing that Marcus says that grinds my gears the most. For him just to assume that he knows the extent and effect of Micke’s addiction, possible abuse, and abandonment of Simon is so presumptuous.

To be generous to Marcus here, I think this is a perfect example of a theory of mind issue. Theory of mind “refers to the capacity to understand other people by ascribing mental states to them” (that’s from the wiki definition). Instead of seeing who Simon is, and trying to understand Simon’s emotions as he describes them, Marcus has created an image of Simon in his head. He has decided how the abuse (both familial and the video) that Simon has endured has affected him, and has also decided what Simon needs in order to heal those wounds. Crucially, Marcus has decided that Simon needs Marcus’s help to heal. Marcus is doing this out of generosity; wanting to heal Simon is a nice thought. But the violation here is in the assumption. Marcus never finds out how Simon really feels because he never listens to him. And you could maybe go as far to say that assuming that Simon needs to be “fixed” because of those experiences is a violation too. Those experiences are what makes Simon who he is.

To be less generous, I once had a very similar argument with my then partner, where I was trying to break up and he was trying to get me to stay. I was left feeling defeated, and like he had made such a good argument that I had to stay. His approach was similar to Marcus’s. He poked at all of my emotional bruises (and claimed to understand them better than me) until I felt too confused to assert my boundaries. So I really feel for Simon in that scene.

Another thing I want to mention is that Marcus is in some ways Simon’s antagonist, and his insistence that he knows and understands Simon better than Simon knows himself is the catalyst that prompts Simon’s season 2 arc, which is about him getting in touch with, accepting, and then acting on his true emotions. I wrote about that more in depth here. 

There’s another element to Marcus that I don’t see discussed much, which is the unique spot he occupies in the class system of the show. We’re used to seeing the upper, noble class that dominates Hillerska, and the working class represented by Sara and Simon (and also Rosh and Ayub). But Marcus is a representative of a kind of in between, and at first glance appears to be middle class. He goes to public school, and does manual labor at the stables. His little backyard apartment feels like something an upper middle class family might create for their teenage son. But his parents are actually land owners. They own the stables and the shooting range that they rent out to Hillerska. We never find out if Marcus’s family is actually noble and inherited that land, or if they’re new money and bought it on their own. But I think some of Marcus’s superiority complex comes from the fact that even though he has money, he isn’t, in his mind, spoiled or snobby like the kids at Hillerska. He surely could have gotten a place at Hillerska, for instance, because of the way his family supports the school. He surely doesn’t have to work to survive (I am basing this on the fact that his family has enough money to build him his own apartment.) But he stays humble and grounded by going to public school and working at the stables.  He’s so humble and good, in fact, that he is going to treat working class Simon right, unlike that stuck up prince who threw him to the royal wolves.  And some of the way that he turns on Simon in their break up scene, especially in the line you quoted– “you see yourself as some victim among those rich brats”-- feels like he has taken off his mask, and is exposing the classist way he actually sees Simon. If Simon, poor boy that he is, isn’t willing to let the benevolent Marcus rescue him, then he deserves everything those rich bastards can dish out.  There’s also a shade of bootstrap mentality here. Marcus works hard, even if his family has money. He’s earned his driver’s license, and he knows exactly the kind of relationship that he wants with Simon. Why can’t Simon do the same?

Obviously the answer is because Simon is a different person from a different set of circumstances. And then we’re back to Marcus’s inability to see Simon as a complete independent person.

So I completely agree with you when you say that Marcus is cruel in this scene, and misinterpreted Simon’s level of interest, and is making a big deal out of a relationship that never really existed in the first place. But I also think we as viewers are reacting to some of the subtle themes that Marcus represents.  The way he fits into the class structure of the show and the way that he connects to Simon’s arc is really significant. 

I know Lisa and Tommy were very positive about Marcus in some of the season 2 promo, in a way that irritated some fans. But I think I understand where they’re coming from. Marcus does have good intentions, even if those intentions are only skin deep, and it’s ok to acknowledge them. Tommy especially has to exist in Marcus’s mindset in order to play him, and it’s fundamental to Marcus’s character that he sees himself as a good guy. And for Lisa, Marcus is a great character because he challenges Simon and adds complexity to the way class is explored in the show. It’s hard to summarize all of that in an interview, especially in a way that isn’t going to result in fan backlash. So I don’t have a problem with how they portrayed him in promo.

Thanks for asking anon, and thank you for reading what turned out to be quite a long post! I think we all have some unresolved Marcus trauma that we need to work through. I know I did at least.

[lover-of-mine]

#anyone want to hear my season 7 buddie spec that has no basis besides the voices in my head? sdoaksoaksokasokasoak yes ! me i always like to read your metas and what you have in mind

thank you for the support oaksoaksoaks

okay, I'm gonna start this off by saying this whole thing hinges on whether or not the show is gonna keep mirroring Buck and Eddie's personal journeys and this is mostly about Buck, I have no idea what they're gonna do with Eddie lol. First of all, this set back when the finale aired about the similarities between Buck and Taylor and Buck and Natalia and that illustrates it beautifully, the whole she came back, they seem happy, are they really? and that's a point against Natalia lasting in my opinion. But the thing is, I think Bucktalia also mirrors Eddiana, and that's when things start to get interesting in my brand of insanity. You have Buck treating Natalia's hand, you have Eddie treating Ana's, Ana and Natalia being reduced to their jobs, the first date in broad daylight in a cafe of some sort, a second date at home being interrupted by the rest of their lives (if you push a bit and think about Kameron's pregnancy, both dates are interrupted by their children even if the baby isn't Buck's on the ways that matter), you have the picture-perfect ending at home after a near-death experience, so the parallels are there too. And that means one important parallel, Buck holding on for the wrong reasons the same way Eddie did, which could doom that relationship further, but also leave Buck spiraling. Because if we're comparing personal journeys, Buck is in a state that's a mix of season 4 Eddie trying to be happy through the trauma and outside looking in/fear-o-fobia Eddie. I think we can even directly parallel some stuff, like, I truly believe the cemetery is the way Buck would handle the outside looking in kitchen talk if that went the other way around.

But the thing is, Buck needs to deal with the shit that happened to him before getting together with Eddie so I'm choosing to look at these as fuel for my Buck Breakdown beliefs. Unlike Eddie, Buck actually died, so that changes the dynamic a little bit, there's also the way that Buck doesn't care about his own life enough to break over dying, but while Eddie's PTSD has many triggers, the thing that actually breaks him is the knowledge that he didn't save the people he thought he saved. So my grand theory here is something happening to Maddie, Bobby, or Christopher that makes Buck lose it. I don't really think they would do something to Chris, but using him would have a similar effect if it wasn't for the fact that it would also break Eddie. Eddie himself doesn't count in this situation unless is both Eddie and Chris, because Buck would be forced to keep it together if something happened to Eddie for Chris' sake. Or maybe if they like, killed off the Buckley parents and forced Buck to deal with that grief. But Maddie or Bobby, dangerous situation, close call, hospital stay, honestly, something that would leave them in enough danger to trigger Buck, low-key don't think you need much to trigger that man. But trigger, Buck losing it, Eddie talking Buck down (how would Eddie find out Buck is losing it? I don't know, plot convenience, I like the idea of divorced-era Buddie and Eddie storming the loft because he's tired of Buck's bullshit and finding him, or maybe someone from dispatch calls Eddie because there's been a call from Buck's address, I don't know, they can get creative there), Buck working towards working his own shit out. But we're in this weird season 4/season 5b mix, right? How do we end s4? Near-death experience that calls back to a previous trauma, big revelation, aborted love confession.

One thing I refuse to compromise on is the fact that Eddie had his oh! moment during the shooting (it's my truth I am not letting it go) so you can probably see where I'm going here, right? A Buck in a better mind space almost dying by chance, getting saved by Eddie, and realizing something. You see the vision? Current vision goes back and forth between equipment malfunctioning, Buck falling, and Eddie being the only one close enough to get to him, this usually goes around a cliff, a bridge, and Buck falling into water (I know the truck bombing is not technically equipment malfunction but equipment did try to kill him, and water is Buck's worst enemy lol), or Buck and Eddie stopping to help someone, and shit going to hell, this vision usually goes with Buck and Eddie seeing a car crash of some sort, again someone drove off a cliff or off a bridge, they go to help, Buck gets trapped in the car, Eddie needs to save him (trapped under a vehicle, water) or just straight up having them drive of a bridge. Because something really big about the shooting is the way that, one it happened by chance, two they weren't supposed to be there, three Buck didn't have anyone he trusted there so he did the saving alone, and four by having Eddie get shot, you're bringing up why he left the army. So with Buck, if they stick to this pattern, you need to drown him or trap him under something, or both. And you have the way the lightning parallels the well and the shooting, and the well triggered something for Eddie, you have the whole you need to keep fighting, find your own way out, the suffocation aspect for both of them when you realize Eddie is about to drown and Buck's lungs are not working, and also the way Buck is supposed to learn something during his coma that could lead to a conversation similar to the will reveal. This is when the vision gets cloudy. Because ideal world, the reveal is Buck's feelings and we don't have an aborted love confession, we have a plain old confession, but the aborted route is always a possibility with a see you in season 8 thing.

But yeah, Buck breakdown, Buck starting to deal with his shit, near-death experience, Eddie having to save him alone, tense conversation after. I'm also slightly obsessed with what could happen in a scene where Eddie is dragging Buck out of the water, cpr, mouth to mouth, "you're not doing this to me again", Buck coughing up water while sitting up, Eddie catching him, "I got you, I got you". The possibilities are ENDLESS. Just put Ryan's emotional power to work. All those fun things oskaoskaoskoaksas

Also, this mostly hinges on Buck doing something to change their relationship because considering Buck tripped into 4 relationships, he needs to start this one. I'm a firm Buck needs to do something first believer. Buck's endgame relationship needs to start with him making a move. Also, my whole Buck needs to choose thing is all about Shannon saying that Eddie keeps making all the choices, so Eddie needs to let go of control and Buck needs to go for what he wants.

[capybaraonabicycle]

Do you ever think about the difference between River's and Clara's trust in the Doctor? The polar opposites they are? I know I've made the joke before that Clara would expect a sunset to admire her back. But it's more than that.

On the one hand we have River's

And if I happen to find myself in danger, let me tell you, the Doctor is not stupid enough, or sentimental enough, and he is certainly not in love enough to find himself standing in it with me!

And then on the other hand there's Clara's

I don't know [where the Doctor is]. But I know where he will be. Where he will always be. If the Doctor is still the Doctor, he will have my back. (Clara reaches behind her.) I'm right, aren't I? Go on. Please, please, go on, say I'm right.

(I mean, there is some slight hesitation on Clara's side but honestly only because the Doctor has just regenerated. If she was talking about 11, that last part would look differently.)

You notice something? They are saying almost exactly the opposite thing.

And neither of them are wrong. Both are just direct consequences of how the Doctor treats them, of how they act vis-a-vis them.

River is used to them failing her, leaving her, pushing her away. She has also seen the Doctor at their lowest when they fail other people, forget them and she has literally studied their behaviour at uni. Plus, she is an independent time traveller. You bet (and the eu will tell you) she has been in numerous situations where there was no Doctor whatsoever to save her and she had to do it on her own. And then there is the whole guilt thing that flows both ways. With the Doctor ruining her childhood and her killing him several times. And then giving her lives to save them.

Clara has seen them at their worst, too, or at least she will. But she is used to being above that. She is used to being the ONE, the main focus of the Doctor's attention. She does not really remember the times they couldn't save her, and anyway, that was not 'her', not really. She only travels with the Doctor, she is used to them always being around and being fixated on her. Plus, you know, the whole showing off to her, flirting with her, wearing a face she would like. Also, she has only recently understood that she doesn't know the Doctor that well and she needs the reassurance here that they still ARE focused on her.

And that behaviour of the Doctor again is just a direct action of how the Doctor - who is doomed to lose everyone they love, who hates goodbyes - meets River and Clara:

River, the woman who dies on their first encounter. Who he has already lost. Whose death is already hurting and will hurt more and more the closer they let her towards their hearts.

Clara, the woman who lived. Who died again and again but came back to them anyway, the woman who gave him hope when the Ponds were gone because maybe this was one person he did not have to lose.

Also, and that is interesting about the scenes, too: River is a diamond and Clara has blown in on a leaf. They are both afraid here, but it's different. River is more angry, and a little smug, because she already knows a way out. Clara is terrified. Like, she is doing amazing here, don't get me wrong, but she is basically at wits end and think she will die.

And that can also be seen in how the Doctor treats them.

They trust River to handle herself. Even when they don't trust HER, they always let her do the dangerous stuff. Not the suicidal one, if they can help it, but they have seen her jump down skyscrapers; they'll let her storm into danger and expect her to be fine. (Also because they already know this is not when she dies. And honestly, we as the audience tend to do the same, I never worried much about River's safety, much more about her mental health.)

And Clara is fully human. Whenever they can, they try to keep her out of danger, do the dangerous stuff themselves; just like they do with most companions.

It is absolutely no surprise to me how differently the Doctor behaves towards them and how differently they know them in consequence. Is it fair to either of them? No. But in my mind it makes perfect sense.

It also obviously has something to do with the fact that Clara considers herself a goddess, basically and River knows she's a goddess but also believes it's the goddess of chaos and despotism.

[20w14a]

Finally made a line up for these guys (｡•̀ᴗ-)✧

I’ll probably do more or something later but I’m still deciding on the other designs. Anyway, from left to right we have NPC Grian, Evil Xisuma, Helsknight, Worm Man, and Renbob!

[Headcanons and design notes under the cut]

NPC Grian

5′6 ft

demon? robot?? nobody knows

oldest of Grian’s robots children

although it loves messing with his creator and friends, it doesn’t mean to scare them when he suddenly appears

possessed doll vibes

patch on sweater made by Evil X

design wise I didn’t do much but I wanted to give a bit more distinction from mine by adding overalls and a sort of doll like vibe by taking inspiration from old toys like Raggedy Andy and a certain doll line I despised as a child lol

Evil Xisuma

5′8 ft with boots (without them they’re the same height as NPC Grian)

resting bitch face

lichtenberg scars sometimes appear on arms and body

long hair messy from wearing helmet

hair clips from Worm Man (idea taken from @waterfall-ambience)

unironically good friends with a lot of these guys but tends to act aloof about it for appearance sake

qpr with Worm Man

most of their design takes inspiration from the classic doom skin with a little inspiration from some fashion style and a certain clone with electric powers based on a blue fast hedgehog haha

Helsknight

5′10 ft

semi-retired champion fighter

flame is a part of him (essentially like certain demonic creatures, was debating going for a dullahan vibe because they are undead fae)

cut on mouth is from fighting

def a nerd in my head but tries not to show it (probably taught both Evil X and Worm Man tcg or something at one point)

his relationship with Evil X is funny to me, I think they’d share music tastes

his design mostly takes inspiration from knights from video games I know (ex: Julius from ender lilies, please check out that game)

Worm Man

5′10 ft (couple inches taller than both Helsknight and Zedaph)

has no superpowers; runs on perseverance and cartoon logic

sensitivity towards clothing textures, usually wears t-shirts and comfy clothes outside of hero suit (also wears glasses, check my other posts to see what I mean)

the stuff in his belt bags are mostly essential stuff like first aid equipment and leftover treats Evil Xisuma baked

qpr with Evil X

I kept Worm Man’s design the same; honestly my inspiration for his is actually from me using pink fabric as a kid for costume day funnily enough (though I will say I like to think his design is like a closet cosplay in a way with how he made it)

forgot this originally but the eye thing is more so a style choice and not part of the mask, I wanted it to have like a spiderman sort of vibe there with his expressions

Renbob

5′11 ft

originally would stop by to visit his cousin, Ren but slowly started staying more to help around the server until he later joined The Goatman with his work

werewolf cocker spaniel

freakishly strong and smart

more bite than bark than Ren if threatened, takes a lot to get him really pissed off though because of how chill he is

taken a bit of inspiration from hippie fashion for his design