#his entire robin run was just everyone not seeing him as a child but bruce thinking that the 19 year old was the actual child

[mikakuna]

tortured by the thoughts of what if bruce was just a slightly better person towards jason. he took in a homeless child and wasn't the adult for him he should've been. what if jason sometimes thinks about who he could've been if a different adult took him in? would he have been safer, happier? do you think, after he becomes red hood, he wonders why robin was too dangerous for 19 year old dick but fine for 12 year old jason?

[krilati]

Tim, who is not Robin, but still feral

Okay, let's say Tim's parents decide that even if their child doesn't need a nanny, they want someone to check on their son's well-being. So Tim is required to go to the doctor once a week. And after he tried to bribe his first one to just tell his parents everything was fine. Janette decided it would be someone else each time.

Tim gets a car once a week that picks him up to see a doctor he doesn't know.

That way he doesn't have time to search for dirt, and he can't bribe anyone, since everyone drinks his mother more than him.

So after Nightwing turned Tim down (Dick later claimed the boy was black-haired and blue-eyed, but since he was often hallucinating Jason at the time, even he wasn't sure). The guy realized he couldn't go to Batman and insist on being Robin. The first fracture (which is 100% likely to happen in the early days of jumping on roofs and kicking angry adults) and the doctor would hand him over to his parents.

So Tim came up with a Plan.

Batman was angry, for a month now someone, every patrol, has been standing up for criminals. If he's lucky, he manages to land 5 hits (dude, your 1 hit can put a person in the hospital, Tim just has short legs, he still needs to run to the edge of the necessary roof) when someone distracts him.

Last time, they poured a bucket of paint on his head, it became almost impossible to see through the mask. Another time, they shot paintballs at his head until he left.

There was another memorable incident when something small landed on his head, and the next moment he was attacked by bats.

But today he finally cornered the attacker, it was a child whose face was hidden behind a mask that completely covered his face, and his hair was hidden behind a hood. He slowly approached the boy, he needed to find out who he worked for. Who decided that they had the right to interfere with him punishing criminals.

Only when Batman grabbed the attacker by the shoulder he felt dizzy and then everything around him went dark. Tim quietly patted himself on the head for the backup plan of the backup plan.

After waking up, Batman did not feel calmer, on the contrary, this meeting ignited even more rage in him.

How dare this child run around Gotham so carefree when his son was killed, how dare he protect criminals when one of them killed his son, how dare he..

That day, a file on a new criminal with high priority appeared on the Batcomputer, Alfred only reproachfully pursed his lips.

By the time Red Hood escaped from Talia (Yes, he escaped here, I don't know for sure, but I think Talia was pitting Jason against Tim to ensure her son had direct access to Bruce's legacy). Batman and Tim's confrontations became legendary.

Tim even had his own name and merchandise! Several names, actually, he was called Gotham's Whisperer, the Soul of Shadow, or Little Shadow. And in various Gotham stores you could find little figurines of him with various weapons that he demonstrated during this time.

Nightwing adored the little guy, although he had never met him in person. In fact, no one except Bruce had ever encountered the kid. And although Oracle never officially supported the boy, she never warned Batman if she saw a small dark silhouette through the cameras. Although Dick really wanted to know where the kid got the sniper rifle with tranquilizers, or how he hacked the Batmobile to put a sleeping Bruce in it and send him to the Cave, or how he got so many incriminating photos of Batman that he scattered all over the city when Batman didn't take one of his threats seriously.

Simply put, Nightwing was a fan, and had wanted the kid's autograph ever since the kid evacuated an entire alley, including Bruce, by playing the sound of a pack of rabid dogs approaching.

Batman, though he had passed the peak of his rage, still made Gotham afraid if he was spotted trolling alone.

Red Hood was furious, not only did his father not have the courage to avenge him, but he also dared to splash out his aggression on anyone who was not breathing smoothly on HIS Alley of Crime.

[elizabethemerald]

Don't Sneak up on People with Swords

@im-totally-not-an-alien-2 made a prompt about Danny sneaking up on Jason Todd and @sky00asara made a comment in the tags about what would happen if Danny did that to Talia. So here is my version of that! Enjoy.

Talia al Ghul watched her beloved from afar. He was out, again patrolling his city for those he considered wrong doers. Her son was by his side. She scowled at how Damian’s fighting style had changed, softened in the company of her beloved. Despite her love for the man under the cowl, he had a tremendous ability to take even the most ruthless of killers and change them to spare the undeserving. He had even tried it with her. 

She was hidden on the roof of an abandoned tower nearby. The tower had succumbed to fire and was now condemned until the city got around to destroying it properly. For now it made the perfect place for her to observe her beloved and her son work undisturbed. 

“Excuse me?” 

Talia whirled, drawing her blade as she spun. Her blade moved fast enough to almost cut the air itself yet the small shape ducked under her stroke and back-pedaled quickly to move out her range. 

“Jeez! Why is everyone in this city so jumpy!” 

The voice more than anything made her realize that the person who had somehow snuck close enough was an actual child. Their black hair and blue eyes made her wonder if this was another of her beloved’s adoptees. Except surely this boy was too young to catch Bruce’s eye? 

“Well maybe you should not sneak up on people?” Talia hissed, her voice soft yet stern. To say nothing of how a child who couldn’t be older than five had snuck up on her at all. 

“Well maybe you shouldn’t brood on the roof of my home!” The child snarked back, just like one of the Bat’s brood would, completely unafraid of the blade still in her hand. Talia raised an eyebrow at him then looked around at the burnt skeleton of the building they were standing on. 

“This building is not fit for human occupation.���

“Neither was the last place I lived.” He said dismissively. “This place hasn’t even killed me yet, so it’s practically a paradise.” 

She was tempted to take the child’s words as sarcasm, yet something in the way he spoke made her think he meant it more truthfully. 

“You’ve died before?” Talia asked. She relaxed her hold on her blade, allowing it to rest at her side. 

“Oh yeah, I die all the time.” He said, then he looked at her curiously tilting his head first one way, then another. “You’ve died too, huh?” 

She nodded, now examining him closely, looking for the signs she would recognize. She could see the hint of a scar on the boy’s palm that might have caused a death. 

“What is it with this town that so many people have died and come back?” The boy asked, apparently rhetorically as he didn’t let her answer. “First the stabby Robin, then the stabby Batgirl, then Batman, and even Red Hood. It’s like everyone I run into is contaminated.” 

Talia’s eyes widened. 

“You can sense those who have utilized the Lazarus Pits?” She would have to inform her father about this child. He could put the entire League of Assassins at risk. The child before her just shrugged. 

“I have no idea what that is. Red Hood mentioned some kind of pit as well, but I’ve never seen anything like that. I just know y’all are contaminated with ectoplasm, though not enough to make a core.” 

“What is this… ectoplasm?” Another name for the Lazarus Waters? Had there perhaps been a Pit outside of League control? In the midwest somewhere based on the boy’s accent. 

“Oh it’s this stuff.” He held his hand out and Talia couldn’t help keep her expression of shock withdrawn despite all her training as his hand filled with the glowing green light of the Pits. He held the Pit Water in his hand then tossed the glowing orb to his other hand in a half juggle as if he weren’t carrying the League's greatest secret and weapon. 

Nevermind telling her father about this child, he could never learn of him. If Ras had the power this child had under his control the world would never survive. There was only one option. She needed to train this child to wield this strength. With the stealth he displayed in sneaking up on her and his power over the Pits themselves he could make an assassin like the world had never seen. He could be the next Head of the Demon under her guidance. She knelt down to the boy’s level, slipping her sword back away as she did so. 

“Tell me, young one. Are you living in this death trap of a building all by yourself?” 

“Yeah, but don’t worry, I’ve got it taken care of. I know I’m little, but that just means people are less likely to notice me. I’m able to steal all the food I need from that big box store down the street.” 

“Oh of that I have no doubt. My name is Talia al Ghul. What’s yours?” 

“Hmm. I’m Danny.” The boy seemed hesitant to trust her, which to be perfectly honest was probably a very smart thing to do, but at least she had a name for this gift of Lazarus. 

“Danny, how would you like to come live with me? You won’t have to steal any more, or worry about food ever again, and I could train you how to fight even better than the Bats.” 

He narrowed his eyes at her, looking her over closely. 

“Would I get a sword?” 

“If a sword is what you want, then once you were trained in its use I would acquire one for you.”

Danny looked like he was about to nod, but then he froze, his head tilting to the side as if he was listening to something. His eyes widened and Talia tensed. 

“Uh-oh. Fruit Loop incoming. I gotta go.” 

Talia half turned as she heard the sound of one of her beloved’s grappling lines catching on the building’s edge. By the time she had turned back to face him, Danny had completely vanished. She hadn’t even heard him leave. She stood and scowled as her beloved landed on the rooftop next to her. 

“Talia.” He grunted at her, glaring all the while. 

“Beloved. Must you ruin every nice thing in my life?” Talia snarled back. The boy, Danny, had the gift of Lazarus at his beck and call and Batman had scared him off. 

Bruce looked momentarily stunned at her fury, but quickly hid it behind his mask. However Talia couldn’t care less about her beloved right now. She just needed to lose him so she could return to find the boy. The boy who would change the world with his power. 

[bitterrobin]

regarding Chris and Damian as foils... I'm always peeved when some people minimize what could be interesting about their relationship to "a child who only values his biological family and hates his adoptive family vs a child who renounces his bio family and embraces an adoptive family." This brief summary/discussion always tends to boil down to Damian is an evil child who must learn to appreciate his adoptive siblings from Chris, who's a perfect boy who loves his adoptive parents and hates his abusive bio parents. When really, that screws both of their characters.

Damian has a complicated relationship to say the least with Bruce and Talia, but neither of them taught him that blood is everything. When written well, Bruce should be stressed and neglectful but deeply loving and Talia shouldn't be an abuser but a sorrowful mother who wasn't able to give him a free life that she wanted for herself.

I should stress that the "blood son" rhetoric that pops up around Damian existed only in his first appearance and the animated movies. In pretty much all of the comics afterwards, Damian was disparaging of Dick, Tim and Cassandra, but he didn't point out his "biological superiority" unless it was specifically in service to Tim's own storylines. His character evolved from an annoying brat that exists to challenge Bruce and Tim for a couple issues to a full child character whose insecurity within a family leads to him lashing out at everyone he deems closer to Bruce than he could ever be. Moving on to Chris Kent, his entire first storyline revolves around building a relationship with Clark and Lois and finding the resolve to fight back against Zod and Ursa. In the end he makes the sacrifice to return to the Phantom Zone in order to ensure that his bio parents can't return to Earth. But in the end, he's just a kid. He struggled with fitting in on Earth. Unlike Clark, he didn't understand why he had to hide his powers. Had he not been sent back to the Phantom Zone to wrap up the story arc, I would've really liked to see Chris struggle with pretending to be a human kid after so long being taught the opposite by his bio parents. Later on when Chris reappears aged-up (deja vu) he's still pretty much the same character but notably more cocky and impulsive to contrast against Thara Ak-Var.

Damian and Chris's potential interactions should be preceded on how similar they are - not on how superior Chris is because he's a loving kid, and Damian is too traumatized to express the same kind of trust and affection that people expect from child characters. Besides, they have entirely different situations. Damian is a child suddenly being dropped into a large and well established family with complicated inner dynamics and rituals, while Chris is a child being brought into a small and simple family structure consisting of Clark/Lois, Kara and Clark's parents. (Pointing out here that Jon didn't exist and Kon-El was killed in Infinite Crisis months prior to Chris's appearance). Chris's bio parents are cut and dry neglectful and abusive, and Damian's parents are a complicated jumble of neglect, ooc abuse, angst, and love. Damian had to contend with the frankly insane plots and history of all the Bat-characters while Chris was confined to one plot line in a fairly consistent Superman run. I don't think I have to spell out how mentally unstable and grief-stricken a lot of the Bats were when Damian became Robin versus the relatively normal lives of Ma, Pa, Clark and Lois when Chris showed up. When exploring what their interaction could've been, I think Damian would one-sidedly hate Chris, who would try to avoid him. Damian would resent Chris for being everything he isn't: a child whose flaws are accepted and embraced, a child with a complete loving family and support, and a child that allowed to be a child. Chris probably wouldn't like Damian at first for being Robin when he got used to Tim being Robin, and he'd be discouraged at how snappy and anti-social Damian is. He's a kind child, but he's not a saint. Chris would have the usual child hang-ups about interacting with mean kids and socializing outside his family. They'd accept each other the way that they are, but I don't think they'd become friends until Damian matures and Chris acclimates to human society as his own individual. Maybe eventually they grow to trust/confide in each other like Bruce and Clark - but until then it'd probably a lot of Damian making rude comments and Chris going :/

[brucewaynehater101]

Oh, I have a thought about the Eldritch Gotham AU! Maybe it's the City who resurrects Jason (because let's face it, the superboy prime punch thing is crazy even by DC standards). My thoughts are:

Jason dies off city limits. This is important, because there's absolutely nothing Gotham could have done to prevent this. It's also a betrayal of sorts to her. "Oh, Bruce is not enough so you ditch Gotham to go to your 'real mom' I see how it is".

Still, he's buried in Gotham's soil. Bruce is broken, Batman is straying from the mission in his grief. There's a new robin trying to help him but he's untrained and Gotham protects her vigilantes, but Jesus, she's working overtime now. The circumstances and motivation is there.

Gotham straight up makes a deal with Bruce: the life of his child but one of them must always remain within her limits. They are allowed to leave (for missions, business) but they must all live in Gotham and there must always be a Bat in the city. Bruce accepts because, honestly, there's no price he wouldn't pay.

Now here's the interesting part: Bruce may already have some experience with Gotham as a living entity (maybe he's aware of the boons she's granted him) or he's still unaware. Most likely scenario is that he dismisses the entire thing as a dream either way (too good to be true). But you could have a really funny moment of Bruce driving in the middle of the night to the cemetery with a shovel so he can meet Jason halfway.

Jason does come back catatonic and I think in this period of time he's being tested by Gotham "Do you really want this? Are you going to run from me the next time someone dangles candy in your face?". Bruce has signed his deal, but Jason needs to agree too.

If Bruce picked him from the graveyard or Jason comes to an agreement with Gotham quickly he could skip the entire LoA plot (maybe he trains with them later, but no pit madness!). I think there would still be angst though, particularly about Bruce agreeing in the name of everyone. Especially because the Joker is still free, so you could have done all that only for him to die again.

Tim would be Robin all through Jason's catatonia but once he wakes up he'd immediately give it up. I don't think Jason would take it (he died in those colors), but there would be tension and competition between them. Jason would resent Tim for being so good at following rules (or at least pretending to), and Tim would feel inadequate next to the guy that got resurrected by Gotham

Basically, Jason thinks Tim is B's favorite and Tim think

I've been excited about answering this ^^

Since it got cut off, imma just link this post to the second one and answer the second one.

Imma back edit this so there's a link to the second one as well ^^

[celaenaeiln]

Hi! I really love all your takes and character analysis. I'm new-ish to Batman so these are always so educational for me 😅 I was wondering, in your opinion, of all the batkids, who would you say would make the most terrifying villains? And who, canonically, would you say exercises the most self control to prevent exactly that from happening? Like every day, they have to work to prevent themselves from crossing that line.

...(Is it Dick? I feel like you're going to say Dick)

Thank you!

You got me!! Those are good questions!

I had to think a lot about this honestly.

So for most terrifying villain, I would say Dick. Mostly because it's just canon. When Dick was the villain both times in New Order and in DC vs Vampires, he practically eradicated the world based on who he felt needed to go. In DC vs Vampires he didn't care for anyone so by the time he was done there were no humans left. In New Order he lost it when the heroes accidentally killed Bruce and thus destroyed the entire justice league and remade himself as the head of all military operations under the government. Dick also knows exactly how to kill Bruce and he's terrified of it (Nightwing: Knight Terrors). Kory once told him during the Teen Titans (2003?) comic that Dick could stack up all the Titans and could take on the Justice League if he wanted to but Dick states that he knows and that's exactly why he's scared.

Also the way he manipulates every single person in existence in both his typical Nightwing runs is just a hint of the brilliance. Many times when his partners want to chase after a villain, he makes them let them go so that he grab the lizard, its hiding spot, and its family rather than just the tail.

Grayson Annual #3

Dick is not reckless in anyway either, he plans and analyzes and calculates as he moves which makes him a fantastic strategist, detective, and doer all in one.

Or actually I change my mind, I choose Cass. I forgot about her initially. Cass can beat everyone in the world (except Harley). Batman has admitted it too.

Detective Comics (2016) Issue #951

She's unstoppable. So unless the Batfamily sends in Harley, in a straight fight where no one runs away *cough* Batman Issue 137 *cough*, then Cass would win. After her though, in a tactical and fighting sense combined it would be Dick.

Jason is canonically the one who struggles with self-control everyday. But unlike some people, I don't think this a fault of his that should be changed or erased. To me, each robin represents a certain characteristic of society.

Dick - the hope of the people.

Jason - the anger of the people.

Tim - the morality of the people.

Stephanie - the safety of the people.

Damian - the rights of the people.

Dick says the meaning of robin is helping the good. And all the robins do this in their own ways.

Jason's robin represents the rightful anger by the people against the injustice. Like the Boston Tea Party against Britain's taxation, Jason was born and raised in Gotham so his love for the common people on the street is overwhelming. He wants to help every woman and child find a better life and survive because it's reflective of the life he and his mother were forced to face. So when he sees a man sexually assaulting a woman or beating a child or selling drugs, his anger bursts out. And in Gotham, there's a lot of that everywhere. So take a good person and put in him the skills and fuel for hurting the bad and you get Jason Todd. That's why from his Robin days he has struggled with self-control.

"He was a drug dealing pimp."

Batman (1940) Issue #645

"I'm sorry...but that doesn't mean he didn't deserve it."

Furthermore in the Batman Urban Legends comic also in the Batman and Robin Eternal comic it shows that Jason's greatest wish is the Joker's death and that coupled with the Gotham War and Selina's interference, Jason has the most trouble with self-control. But I believe it's rightfully so.

I think after Jason it's Dick who struggles with self-control. Not as robin but as Nightwing. Especially during his darkest days of the Nightwing (1996) comic and the Outsiders comic, Dick has been shown to forcibly stop himself when someone hurts his friends or family.

Okay, the difference between Jason and Dick's struggle with self-control is that Jason feels it all the time because his motivating factor is ever present while Dick only struggles with it when someone hurts the people he loves because that's Dick's motivating factor.

Damian is the one who has the most trouble after that. Then Stephanie, Tim, Cass, and Duke. Although if you're including Stephanie's robin days, she would be tied with Jason.

[the-booty-crusader]

I saw a few comic panels about Cass' adoption and Robin!Tim almost as tall as Bruce, but then in the Red Robin run, we could see that Tim reached a few centimeters below Bruce's chin when the two hugged, like why did you shrink?!??! 😭😭

Truly wild how inconsistent Tim’s height is. Like you’ll see random shots of him as an adult at the exact same height as everyone else and then he’ll get a solo moment and he’s 3’4” on a good day like MAKE IT MAKE SENSE!!

Also I find it a funny thought that for his entire run as Robin he was just a small little fella and then after the whole Brucequest thing he gets his last growthspurt and catches up to— if not overtakes— Dick. I always find the “oldest child is the shortest” concept funny :3

[cyb-by-lang]

I kinda already commented and it felt weird to do it again? So I thought I’d ask here instead:

I just saw a post on tumblr that Batman did try to kill Joker and Superman stopped him??? And it was because Joker was somehow linked with Iran, and couldn’t be killed cuz it would start a war. And other Batkids also tried to kill Joker???

I’ve honestly always thought Batman didn’t kill Joker cuz he’s too popular a villain so it was just sort of waved off because of ‘Batman rules’ and publication reasons.

Is Batman almost killing Joker included in your fic? I have very little knowledge of the comics and hearing about newer versions overwriting previous stories makes me even more confused.

Congrats to you for having unlocked a secret level of rambling through deciding to send an ask rather than a comment. This would totally have ended up on AO3 below your comment. :p

And it is going below the cut because it's long as hell.

The scenario you've heard about was from the original run of A Death in the Family, which is the story arc where Jason was killed back in the 80s. In the aftermath of Bruce finding Jason dead (and Jason's birth mother dying shortly thereafter), he hunts for the Joker after realizing that the warehouse explosion didn't, in fact, kill the clown. Somehow (racism!) the Joker ends up being appointed as the Iranian ambassador to the UN. This was later retconned to the fictional country of Qurac, because even DC realized that was a step too far. In the scene after that fun little reveal, Superman is on hand to try and keep shenanigans to a minimum, the Joker predictably tries to gas the entire UN assembly chamber anyway, and then flees via helicopter. Batman, who has been trailing along this entire time in a rage, pursues.

He's planning to kill the clown. Superman, for reasons related to "we don't whack ambassadors and start wars," has been holding him back for the arc thus far. Helicopter pursuit turns into a helicopter fight, during which the Joker's henchman fires a spray of bullets that kills the pilot while everyone is on board and having a bad time. Batman exits the aircraft alive, intact, and furious, and doesn't give a single shit if the Joker died when the chopper hit the sea.

And then a month later the fucking clown comes back again like nothing happened. Only the entire setting has undergone a serious tone shift since Jason's death, which means you're gonna see a lot heavier, dramatic stories that have more significant body counts. Batman cannot get over the death of his son, because no, and eventually Tim Drake pops up in the middle of that death spiral with a hypothesis: "Batman needs a Robin."

He's not wrong.

He also doesn't go about it super gracefully, including an attempt to convince Dick to come back to the Robin mantle that goes nowhere, but eventually he convinces the Dark Knight to take on a third Robin. Unlike Dick and Jason, Tim is locked the fuck down for training and not allowed out in the field willy-nilly. And when he does go out, he is ferociously competent.

Incidentally, this is because the writers/editors realized that after the child murder storyline they'd just done, Batman had to have one hell of a reason to ever take on another kid sidekick. And they needed to try and drag the Robin role's popularity back up, since killing a kid sidekick was also a symptom of DC's tanking sales at the time; the whole thing was ultimately a publicity stunt. It was a bad idea and now we just live with it.

So Tim is, broadly, never portrayed as incompetent in any aspect aside from maybe high school socializing. I don't think he gets kidnapped even a tenth of the number of times Dick did during his decades-long career as Robin. Certainly never falls for a honey trap plot or anything like that.

But yeah, the meta reason why the Joker never dies is because he's an iconic villain who drives plots. But unless you step out of the main continuity, he's also never just been a "no-frills funny" villain since.

ANYWAY.

As far as the rest of the Batfam taking a swing at the Joker, there's one incident that I can recall off the top of my head.

Dick Grayson, currently Nightwing, wasn't especially close to Jason while he was alive. During Jason's original run, they had a cordial (if brief) relationship, but they basically didn't get any storylines together, so it's hard to really tell how strongly they bonded. After Jason died, Dick began experiencing...I wanna call them chronic night terrors. The idea is that a boy in a Robin costume is falling, and falling, and Dick can never save the kid.

I'm sure it has nothing whatsoever to do with his dead brother, no sir.

So, some time later, the Joker gets told he has terminal cancer by a psychiatrist who assumes that if the clown was convinced he was going to die, he might try reforming or something. A terminal turnaround. Lots of people do that, right?

He assumed wrong.

The Joker goes on an utter tear, doing all sorts of escalating villainy that starts with gassing everyone he can get his hands on, including other Arkham inmates. Somewhere amid this rampage, Robin III goes missing and the Joker cheerfully tells Nightwing that yeah, he killed the kid. And he has the gall to bring up Jason in the middle of all the gloating. By name. (The Joker knows Jason's name due to some nonsense involving Crane and Fear Toxin hallucinations and Batman in a prior story arc.)

And Dick

fucking

SNAPS.

Pummels the Joker right there on the floor. Barehanded. No sticks, no pausing, just beats him to death.

Two seconds later, a very alive (if hurt) Tim manages to get there and go "oh god what happened." Because Dick is not doing well! He has a crisis about killing a dude, no matter how terrible. He never thought he'd go that far.

Batman swoops in and resuscitates the clown. In the time between Jason's death and The Joker's Last Laugh, he has apparently decided that it's more important to keep Dick from suffering a breakdown than it is to kill the clown. DC editorial was gonna keep him alive either way, but whatever.

And now for the third part of my ramble.

As for Under the Red Hood, Jason's death is seriously streamlined for the film. In this version of events, none of the UN chicanery happens. Ra's al Ghul hires the clown for a distraction job while trying to crash the world economy (again) and whoops, the clown killed Batman's son. Crowbar, bomb, whatever. Before Jason's body can be buried, the League of Assassins steals it, hucks Jason into the Lazarus Pit, and now he's alive again!

Except, given how he died and how long he spent dead and how that interacts with the magic, he wakes up as a berserk ball of rage and pain, kills two of Ra's al Ghul's guards with his bare hands, escapes, falls into a river, and disappears.

...So much for making that whole thing up to Batman. The League of Assassins just quietly lets Bruce bury a latex dummy and doesn't ever bring it up.

Cut to Gotham, years later, when Red Hood is tearing up the place and Batman goes "Ra's al Ghul, what the fuck" and the whole story comes spilling out.

In A Ninja's Guide to Gotham, Jason's dropped hints in his narration that he was actually with the League of Assassins for a while, even before going 'round the world training with assassins and stuff. The Lazarus Pit just got him back to full functionality. So, you can assume it leans more on the comics' "spontaneous resurrection" scenario.

If Bruce ever tried to kill the Joker while Jason was dead, Jason doesn't know about it. And because we haven't been in Bruce's head, there's no indication either way.

(Bruce makes mention of how easy it would be kill the Joker in the film, but that he could never come back from doing so. It is not specified if he made the attempt or just thought about it a lot.)

I've been holding back on Jason's and Bruce's accounts of events because they're both owed a moment of dramatic catharsis (and shouting). You can generally rest assured that it'll be more likely to be a mix of events than a pure account of any one take on what happened in the warehouse that day.

Thanks for setting off an exposition bomb~

[rubydubydoo122]

Batfam Band Au

Jason Todd and Tim Drake are so Conan Gray coded. Proof? here,

Maniac - Jason: 'People like you always want back what they can't have, but I'm past that and you know that so you should turn back to your rat(bat) pack tell 'em I'm trash' Jason to Bruce after Bruce victim blamed his death Tim: 'Tell all of your friends that I'm crazy, and drive you mad, that I'm such a stalker, a watcher, a psycopath' Tim's speaks for itself, but like... probably Tim to everyone

Fight or Flight - Jason: 'something's gotten into you, you don't really look at me the way you used to' Him to Bruce. no explanation needed, 'Every single rumor that I've heard of you say, you were out with someone that I don't know' Jason when he saw the pictures of Tim as Robin 'fight or flight, I'd rather die than have to cry in front of you. fight or flight, id rather lie than tell you I'm in love with you' him with bruce. Him With Bruce. HIM WITH BRUCE. Like god, he's just a scared kid that wants his dad, but he'll never admit that, 'Now there's someone at my door, someone i've not met before, they've got, eyes like mine, a pretty smile and they've been crying for a while, cus they also didn't know' Jason with Tim after Damian became Robin (or a while after that ig, whenever they started to get along)

The Cut that Always Bleeds - Tim: 'Oh I, can't, be, your lover on a leash, every other week, when you need, oh I can't be, the kiss that you don't need, the lie between your teeth, the cut that always bleeds' Tim realizing that maybe being Bruce's emotional support child is no bueno for his mental heath. 'Say you love somebody new and beat my heart to black and blue, and they leave and it's me you come back to' Because Tim became Robin to essentially be Bruce's crutch until he could get back on his feet after Jason's death, and the problem with that is Bruce will never really get back on his feet because he's still limping from his parents death, 'But even though you're killing me, I need you like the air I breathe, I need, I need you more than me, I need you more than anything, please, please.' and that's kinda the case for all the Robins. Bruce pushes them so hard, almost to the point of breaking, and when they want to break away, Bruce gives them a sliver of validation creating a never ending cycle of them craving Bruce's approval.

Astronomy - Jason: 'cus socially speaking, we were the same, with runaway fathers and mothers who drank' Jason to Steph probably 'From far away, i wish i'd stayed with you. but here face to face a stranger that I once knew. I thought if I wandered, I'd fall back in love, you said distance brings fondness, but guess not with us' Jason to Bruce during UTRH, because Jason's death changed both of them so much, to the point where they can't recognize each other anymore . And maybe Bruce missed Jason while he was dead, but now that he's alive...'Stop trying to keep us alive, you're pointing at stars in the sky, that've already died, stop trying to keep us alive, you can't force the stars to align, when they've already died' Him to himself about continuing to forgive Bruce and running back to Bruce time and time again after all the shit Bruce has pulled

Footnote - Tim: 'I say if I waited, could that maybe help, you told me that patience won't change how you felt, for me' Tim to Bruce, knowing that he'll never be Jason, yet still yearning for that father/son dynamic (sh sh, Ik Tim doesn't actually see Bruce as his dad, but lets shift slightly into fanon) 'So I'll just take a footnote, in your life, and you can take my body, every line, I would right for you, but a footnote will do' Tim's entire Red Robin run, mainly to Dick, who is a little too busy trying to balance grieving and a feral child 'You taught me a lesson, that feelings are reckless, it's just like the novels, side characters end up alone.' Tim after loosing almost everyone he cared about within a year and turning cold and distant.

Winner - Literally this whole song is for the both of them and their parental issues Tim: 'Packed my bags at 14, I hadn't planned on leaving, but you haven't been back home for days' Like... we all do agree that Tim's parents were neglectful. They were literally never around. 'You don't really wanna hear the truth, do you? it's obvious to anyone who ever knew you. that all you ever want is to be right, even if that means you gotta lie to do it,' This is probably more fannon, but like Janet and Jack Drake Jason: 'Bask inside your victory, my heart that once was beating, bleeding in the palm of your hand' Under the Red Hood. batarang to the throat, 'Yet you have the nerve to miss me, how do I somehow feel guilty? when you're the one who let it get this bad' JASON TO BRUCE LIKE, TELL ME I"M WRONG. Bruce will claim to miss Jason, but then blame him for his own death in the same breath. "You don't really wanna hear the truth, do you? it's obvious to anyone who ever knew you. that all you ever wanted was to FIGHT. I WAS ONLY TRYING TO SURVIVE YOUR CHAOS!! WELL LOOK AT HOW IT"S PAID OFF' Jason got caught up in Bruce's "war on crime" AND HE DIED. HE DIED FOR IT. HE DIDN"T SURVIVE BRUCE"S CHAOS, HE"S STIL STUCK IN IT AND HE CAN"T GET OUT.

Family Line - THIS ONE!!! THIS ONE!!! I LITERALLY CRY EVERY TIME I HEAR IT BECAUSE IT FITS THE BOTH OF THEM TOO WELL Jason: 'My father never talked a lot, He just took a walk around the block, 'Til all his anger took a hold of him, and then he'd hit. My mother never cried a lot, She took the punches, but she never fought' Willis and Catherine. 'Scattered 'cross my family lineI'm so good at telling lies, That came from my mother father's side, Told a million to survive,' Father meaning Bruce. Lies meaning Robin and secret identies and stuff 'Scattered 'cross my family line, God, I have my father's mother's eyes,' Sheila's 'But my sister's when I cry, I can run, but I can't hide, From my family line' Do I have to explain this? Tim: 'It's hard to put it into words, How the holidays will always hurt, I watch the fathers with their little girls, And wonder what I did to deserve this, How could you hurt a little kid? I can't forget, I can't forgive you, 'Cause now I'm scared that everyone I love will leave me' I can just imagine little baby Timmy following Batman and Robin, and then casting a glance at a family lighting a minorah, while he knows his family's minorah is sitting in the closet because his parents still haven't come home from their trip. Jason: 'Oh, all that I did to try to undo it,' All the crimes he did to survive, made him try so hard as Robin to undo that, 'All of my pain and all your excuses, I was a kid but I wasn't clueless' Maybe it's how he feels about Sheila now that he's grown. Jason was alone on the streets before Bruce. He even empathized with Sheila, and tried to help her. Jason was optimistic, not naive. Tim: 'Someone who loves you wouldn't do this' Jason: "All of my past, I tried to erase it,' His time on the streets, his time as Robin, Sheila's betrayal, The LOA, his villain era, 'But now I see, would I even change it?' Because all of those things shaped who he is now 'Might share a face and share a last name, but We are not the same' He would've never done what Sheila did, he would never do what Bruce did, or Talia, or Wilis or any of the other adults in his life who have let him down.

Anywho, yeah, Conan Gray writing music for Jason and Tim is on my mind a lot.

[flashfuture]

do you think Damian is being regressed again?

Genuinely no. And I know people compare it to Batman and Robin right now and say see look. But what Batman and Robin shows us is Damian wants to work with Bruce so badly. Damian's solo run as Robin showed us he was willing to go to a tournament of death to prove himself. Siding with "Batman" over all his siblings is just him further trying to prove himself. The only way Damian is 'regressed' is if you want him to be an adult already. Every single Robin has a lost identity inside of Batman and Robin. Every Robin struggles with who they are outside the mask.

Dick had 44 years to be Robin. He defined redefined and undefined what it meant to be a kid sidekick. And becoming Nightwing was his answer out. There were quite literally no child sidekicks around before him he invented the concept of the role and nothing his brother's go through isn't anything he hadn't thought of doing already.

Jason had ~5 years if you count his pre crisis self and then he Died. And Jason is barely even over that so his entire 19 years of returned life is about who is he really did he come back as the same boy.

Tim has been a version of Robin for 35 years. Tim defined who Robin was without Batman. And so they still don't know what to do with him. Because Damian came on the scene while he was still alive and still a pretty popular character. So for the past 14 years they've been trying to juggle both characters on top of outrageous retcons and reboots. And it's true Tim could use Something to do outside of Robin but they don't know what that is yet.

So Damian is 14 and is going to make mistakes because DC does not have their child heroes be good. Dick was knocked unconscious and kidnapped every other issue till he became Nightwing at like 19. It's a tried and true sidekick tradition to suck until you're an older teenager. And everyone in this run has been beyond dumb as rocks letting that robot run around but hey we just have to go with it

[starwalker03]

I’m running out of questions so here is fanfic literature analysis that has been rummaging in my brain. in WMLP all the captured and enslaved characters were replaced besides for M’Gann. Robin’s been replaced twice over. Superboy and Aqualad’s mentors had actual sons. Green Arrow went back to Roy after losing Artemis. So much amo to get under their skin. And I bet it’s already under Dick’s. Dude hates the JL now and Slade would not miss the chance to show him Bruce replacing him.

Oh yes. Slade would have used Dick's replacement many times to destabilize him. and every other member of the batfamily, because before Dick there was no more family members. For all intents and purposes, it looks like Bruce only decided he cared for company and family after losing Dick, which Slade uses against him often. Dick hates the family he didn't know because of this, but ostly he knows it's not their fault. it's all Bruce's fault.

Roy's return to Oliver is a situational thing for sure, and anyone who knows them and knows the issues they've had can tell as much. Roy has to find his original, and also the team. He blames himself partially for everything that's happened. the easiest way to find and save everyone is to go back to the JLA and work with Oliver again. Artemis knows this is likkely how it went about. And she's happy for them. glad that they were able to get over differences. glad Roy was not so entirely swept up in his searching and forced himself to be alone.

At least Mera was already pregnant when Kaldur was taken. Lois, though? not as far as anyone was aware. When Conner found out he probably was so heartbroken that he would likely never meet this child. Moreover, Clark finally had a real son. Why would he care for the clone he lost when he has a baby to care for? and yet when COnner next sees Clark he looks just as upset to see Conner in his position. Conner can tell he is still missed.

M'Gaan has not been replaced, I suppose. But the current state of Beast Boy's existence in the world is a bit of a spoiler for an up coming chapter so we'll leave it there methinks.

[roobylavender]

i know you’ve talked a bit about your own version of events that diverge primarily concerning damian’s origin (if i recall correctly) but i’m interested in how you would handle tim? would he still be robin, what would his arc look like, do you think he should’ve been robin at all ? (just cause i know some people believe he shouldn’t in canon)

i actually really enjoy tim's introduction as robin bc (next to jason) it's the perfect example of how ludicrous robin is as an entity. with dick while there's a day-to-day life he lives that we get to see in parallel in earlier comics, a lot of it is taken in jest. bruce and dick's adventures in the golden age and even parts of the silver age are mostly comical and there's little continuity to speak of so there aren't really any consequences to speak of until dick goes to college. with jason's run we only really get to see hard-hitting consequences once he dies, and most of his run prior to that is plot driven with very few moments spared to showcase what his civilian life is like (most of which can be attributed to mike w. barr). what i appreciate about tim's robin run (and what i imagine other people comparatively find mind-numbing and boring) is that it delves into all of minutiae of being a teenager and a vigilante at the same time. the bizarre sudden absences, the sleeplessness, the school situation, the danger, the rift with your parents because they don't know where you are or what you're doing, the pressures of keeping your identity secret from your peers when you're only a kid and you want to have relationships but you don't know how to maintain them. tim being an outsider to bruce's family is precisely what makes his robin run so striking and revelatory. unless it runs in the family (and even then there are problems) it's hard to be a kid vigilante. delusional almost. and this status quo is even more exaggerated for tim bc he happens to become robin at one of the worst period's in bruce's (and consequently gotham's) life. a thirteen-going-on-fifteen-year-old is led to believe he is one of the only pieces of duct tape holding all of this shit together to the point his activities merit his father moving them to an entirely different city for a while. it's crazy! and eventually, it is going to get to him! it literally did! and personally i think it should have stayed that way

tim became robin not as part of a long-form response to trauma (albeit the trauma of what happened to his parents obv factored into some things) but bc of his own misconceptions as to what gotham needed to survive. he was a child, acting like a child, thinking like a child, etc. and albeit along different parameters the same would apply to jason as well. robin was more like a temporary phase for either of them than it was necessarily as a central identity around which to develop themselves entirely (a la dick). it should not have been permanently in the cards, and while the concept of legacy within dc is certainly interesting, this is one area where the compounded history, imo, should have espoused every reason why not to continue the robin identity's existence. every question and concern posed at the onset of tim's transition into robin should have been resoundingly answered rather than forgotten and left to the wayside as he was plunged deeper and deeper into the abyss of vigilante violence and death. he was a kid! he had a misconception about his own place in the world. and little by little he realized that while he would always have an inclination towards saving others he wasn't sure that this was the way he wanted to go about his life. i'm not opposed to tim staying connected to bruce and everyone else, but i don't think he has to remain a vigilante to do that. in fact, that to me is one of the greatest crimes of modern batman canon in general: the idea that every relevant connection bruce maintains has to be a masked villain or hero of some kind. bruce used to be friends with socialites! reporters! doctors! and it's not to say he isn't still but they're certainly more severely peripheral than they used to be. every other major dc hero has a significant civilian cast but for some reason bruce's own collective either steadily dwindled or was recharacterized and manipulated into playing a part in the grand game (think vicki finding out bruce was batman and the whole blackmail and death shtick that happened after)

so. to address your first question. i do want tim to be involved in that time period in everyone's life, but i want him to be involved as tim. not robin. as someone coming to terms with what he's been through and what he can do going forward. kind of like a singular greek chorus if you will. an observer to the party who occasionally interjects with striking gravitas. someone who enters and exits the story at leisure. that guy over at the manor on a saturday while all hell breaks loose in the parlor (they've found damian, they know he exists, what are they going to do, what do they even say). that guy committed to his new life as a boring and ordinary teenager with a video game addiction but also a perpetual itch to scratch who breaks his abstinence rule one night to stalk the red hood and ask what the hell, man? you know bruce still loves you more than anyone, right? while jason (bewildered, bereaved) tells him to buzz off before he puts a bullet through him (he never would). that guy who meets up with cissie the first friday of every month to talk about what it's like to live with this void where they feel like they're doing nothing even though they know the horrors of picking it all up again are worse. that guy who has to sit with this weird pit in his stomach while his girlfriend comes to terms with her own place in the world bc he knows now that he can't do it for her any more than bruce couldn't do it for him. that guy who still visits barbara in the watchtower and does homework while they trade jokes and jibes about whatever gotham's got going on and maybe sometimes he gives a stray opinion. that guy who has to convince his dad that there's nothing out of the ordinary happening to explain why suddenly he's always here, he's answering phone calls, he's showing up for dinner. that guy who finds his old corkboard with photographs and newspaper clippings and pushpins and red string and goes to the store the next day to buy a camera bc hey, maybe there's no reason to stalk batman anymore, but he still likes the feel of a camera in his hands and someone told him last week there's an internship for a junior photographer at the local newspaper with vicki vale. maybe this is how he helps. maybe this is how he feels useful without sacrificing so much of himself in the process

[carebooks]

I GOT THIS

1. Bruce Wayne - Chris Argent

so i can’t just right off the bat (ha, i made a pun) make Scott as Bruce, yes, they’re both the main character but as a whole?? no. they wouldn’t work. Instead, i assigned Bruce as Chris Argent. they both have similar familial trauma, though in Chris’ case it’s losing his wife, and having his dad and sister try to constantly kill him. Other than that, this is a father-figure character to a lot of others, he’s Allison’s dad and he’s constantly known as the ex-werewolf hunter veteran. he regrets and is very guilty about his family’s role in the deaths of innocents that he wants to do good and he follow’s Allison’s new code to protect instead of hunt. plus, they’re both weapons and fighting experts. their main difference is that Chris’ main weapon is guns and that he’s killed before, and probably would again if it came to it but only in a tough situation.

2. Alfred Pennyworth - Dr. Alan Deaton

i was legit having trouble placing Alfred anywhere with a TW character. Alfred’s the older mentor who knows best and has everyone’s back. he’s everyone’s favorite. and he doesn’t hold back. the closest in TW is Deaton, also known as the druid emissary to the McCall pack and a father figure to Scott. he’s the guy that gives people advice, he tells them what they need to do to win. he helps take care of them if they’re hurt or near death. he’s the closest thing we got to Alfred. but no one could ever be Alfred.

3. Dick Grayson - Scott McCall

now THIS i can get behind, we have a young, slightly fatherless, youngster who's shoved into this world despite never asking for it. Bruce built Robin, he made Dick Grayson into the Boy Wonder, and even if Dick is a better vigilante than him— that didn't make it okay. Scott, meanwhile, never asked for the bite, never wanted to be a werewolf, and spent the entire first season trying to be normal again. they're both the young one in the beginning who eventually develops into a leadership role, one so big that their previous leader sees how better Scott/Dick is in the role. even though i didn't put Derek as Batman, Derek is the last main Alpha before Scott, and he recognized that Scott was already an Alpha— albeit a symbolic one for his human pack and then progressed into an actual True Alpha that Derek stood by him. he didn't care that this kid is younger than him, he knows that Scott is the better man and the better Alpha and he follows him because he believes in him. Derek's speech to the twins about Scott near the 3B finale still stays with me, "When there's no chance of winning, he keeps fighting. When all hope is lost, he finds another way. And when he's beaten down, he stands up again!" you go over to Bruce and Dick, and its said time and time again that Nightwing is what Batman should have been. he's the better version of Batman, what Bruce wanted to be. but he couldn't so instead he raised someone else to do it. and i can see Bruce letting Dick the reins for Gotham, if you haven't noticed Dick's his favorite kid.

4. Barbara Gordon- Allison Argent/Lydia Martin

first duo pairing! not only are Allison and Lydia best friends, but they kinda more or less embody Barbara. let me be more specific:

Batgirl!Barbara - Allison

Oracle!Barbara - Lydia

Allison fits best with Babs during her Batgirl run, not only were they once of the first girls on the respective teams, but they were ones that learned some serious fight moves and weapons training as teenagers rather than a child like Dick Grayson. plus there's a love story between her and Dick. (dickory shipper thou)

Lydia fits Babs as Oracle after the Joker leaves her paralyzed. Babs becomes the person in the chair, the one you go to for information. Lydia's one of— if not the— most smartest members of the pack, and she's a banshee. She predicts death. She's a legit oracle if you think about it.

5. Jason Todd - Derek Hale/Peter Hale

another duo pairing! see, Derek is basically what Jason was before he got crowbared by the Joker. Peter Hale is Jason after he was brought back, the Red Hood. and then it comes back to Derek again still with Red Hood except now he hangs out with his family again. so, they all are still capable of killing, they aren't afraid of heading in that direction. when Derek became an Alpha he was all big and macho and the big bad wolf and its a bit similar to how Jason first was as Robin, just having a great time till they're both brought down by some rough stuff. Peter was brought back and is extra murdery just like Jason. Derek is also the most distant of all Scott's pack members, he's the oldest and an adult, while Jason is just trying his best to be a lone wolf. (he fails at it some times)

6. Cassandra Cain - Malia Tate

i think it speaks for itself, but it's also funny because they're almost inverse mirrors of each other. Cassandra was raised, not to speak, but to observe. she reads people and their body language meanwhile, Malia who was stuck as a coyote in the woods for more or less a decade has a horrible read on people and very little social skills. coyote's themselves are very solitary. they're also both more comfortable with the killing of their enemies than other members of their respective packs/teams. plus they happen to be both children of villains/anti-heroes (Lady Shiva, David Cain) & (Peter Hale, the Desert Wolf 'Corinne')

7. Tim Drake - Stiles Stilinski

whoever knows Tim Drake and whoever knows Stiles Stilinski has got to know it's a perfect match. Tim's the Robin that correctly deduced who Batman and Robin (Dick Grayson) was. He's a genius, he's coffee addicted, he's bisexual, and he tends to avoid sleep to do research and whatnot. Stiles, is a genius is his own right, he figured out Scott was a werewolf before Scott. and he's usually the one who figures out the bad guy (sometimes even by accident! looking at you, matt). he's also obviously bi-coded, he's bi, i don't make the rules.

8. Stephanie Brown - Kira Yukimura

one of the more funny characters, Stephanie came in as Spoiler and she's weirdly not as liked by some people when compared to Babs or Cass. she and Kira both tend to overthink things and speak without thinking. they can both be cheerful and driven, and sometimes they doubt their abilities. they both don't particularly think highly of themselves either. Stephanie has some trouble with low self-esteem and Kira did too in the beginning, as well as loneliness due to moving halfway across the country. Other than that, if you haven't noticed it, Stephanie's a huge dork. it's adorable, sorry, adorkable. and so's Kira and it's why we love her. between the awkward interactions around their crushes and their total badassery when fighting enemies, it's no wonder these two should be matched.

9. Duke Thomas - Mason Hewitt

he's legit smarter than most his teammates, either in an intellectual way or a just a common sense way because Duke at least had a semi-normal upbringing compared to the rest of these guys, plus they're both one of the later added in characters

10. Damien Wayne - Liam Dunbar

a child. an angry child. an angry devil child. while Liam is not Chris' son, he's Scott's first beta. otherwise known as a son/little brother figure to him similar to Damien and Dick.

extra:

Jim Gordon - Sheriff Stilinski

Lee Thompkins - Melissa McCall

Selina Kyle - Braeden (but just because of the vibes, not any love story connections) they're both badasses in illegal ways. one's a thief, the other a mercenary.

i wrote a lot and every section seemed to get shorter, did ya notice? eh, hoped you liked it.

characters i didn’t use because i couldn’t find a definite match (but if anyone else has one then let me know):

Kate Kane -

Lucius Fox -

Luke Fox -

Clayface

Jackson Whittemore

Coach

Theo Raeken (although i guess i could see him as another Jason Todd but much more eviler bc he came in with bad intentions while all Jason did was attempt to steal the Batmobile's wheels in front of Batman) (they both did die and come back at least) (but Jason's the better man)

Batfam as Teen Wolf characters?

I'll be honest, this has been sitting in my inbox for over a year and I still don't know anything about Teen Wolf other than the fact that they recently got Destieled

[vinelark]

khoa & tim fake uncle postfic

because i’m thinking about tim’s fake uncle again and because i’m also thinking about ghostbat: au (loosely inspired by this) set during tim’s early robin era where tim does a version of the Fake Uncle thing, which coincides with minhkhoa khan sneaking into town to spy on bruce.

the thing is, khoa has been off the grid for a while and just learned about jason--both that bruce got another kid, and that said kid had a fatal run-in with the joker. bruce had told khoa to stay out of gotham years ago, but khoa isn’t about to let that stop him once he catches up on the news and pieces together bruce’s grief spiral that only recent calmed down with the appearance of a new robin. a new robin who is, conveniently, posting a veiled job offer for an? uncle?? on the internet, and doing it entirely on his own.

so khoa fashions himself a fake struggling-but-not-too-struggling actor identity and lands himself the position of tim drake's uncle. it’s a perfect way to peek at bruce’s life while flying under the radar, because this tim kid is very eager to keep his fake uncle as separate from bruce as possible. khoa expects to be in and out of this job in a month, maybe two, as soon as he’s sure bruce is stable and not going to crumble because bruce cares so much and khoa knows it’ll be his undoing one day and—anyway. it’s a temporary gig. the kid’ll have to come up with a cover story when khoa inevitably disappears, but that’s not khoa’s problem. and tim probably shouldn’t be making up fake relatives anyway, so khoa will be teaching him a valuable lesson. (the lesson: always make sure you have collateral on someone before trusting them. you’re welcome for the parenting help, bruce!)

except. it’s not so easy to leave.

after just two weeks khoa starts realizing that:

tim is bonkers

like, off the wall bonkers

and brilliant

bad combo, khoa knows from experience

tim desperately cares about bruce and dick and alfred

but does not see himself as part of the family (hence the fake uncle thing)

khoa also realizes that tim keeps secretly patching himself up at home (because he’s downplaying any injuries after patrols) and eventually khoa is like. “okay. i don’t care what happened*, but you do have to stitch that up properly. my fake self can’t be in trouble for child endangerment.” and he patches up a surprised and wary tim. this becomes a routine.

*(khoa knows what happened, he was stalking batman on patrol that night. like most nights.)

ANYWAY. basically what i’m saying is: identity shenanigans where bruce’s ex is lurking around gotham pretending to be tim’s uncle and tim doesn’t know about the ex thing and bruce doesn’t know about the uncle being fake thing and everyone is keeping secrets from each other. and khoa goes from “this is a convenient way to spy on bruce” to “if anything happens to this unhinged baby robin i will kill everyone in this room and then myself” and ends up co-parenting tim without bruce realizing.

also in between having concerning realizations about tim’s self-preservation skills and spying on bruce, khoa finds time to have fun with it. like imagine a parent-teacher conference at tim’s school. the school calls bruce to schedule because his contact info is still on file from when tim was staying with him. but obviously khoa catches wind of this and decides to also turn up, in full uncle disguise, and spends the whole time fucking with bruce and having a blast.

like bruce was kind of checked out last year when the conferences happened and now he’s starting to claw out of his grief enough to be present and engaged. especially now that tim is staying with his “uncle” bruce is like wait. wait. and is trying to make more of an effort, so he shows up to the conference. and then at the conference khoa is just lounging in his chair like, “tim fell asleep in class? good for him, i’ve been telling him to get more sleep” and bruce is trying to be Even Better Dad to compensate while his eye is just constantly twitching.

[parent-teacher conference shenanigans with contributions from @cairoscene, @90kon, & @mammutblog:]

teacher: i won't sugar coat it, tim is very nearly failing literature

khoa: ah. a ridiculous subject anyway.

teacher: i notice tim is very... isolated. he doesn't seem to engage much with his peers, even when they try to initiate conversations with him

khoa: well children are idiots, i don't blame him

teacher: tim got in a fight—

khoa: did he win?

khoa: oh tim’s getting an A in science? we should celebrate. i’ll take him to get ice cream for dinner. we usually do that anyway but this time he can have extra sprinkles

bruce: that’s not— [deep breath] in my experience tim has trouble remembering to eat a balanced diet when left to his own devices, which is important to his growth at this age.

khoa: yeah of course. that’s why sometimes we get frozen yogurt instead

bruce: tim is lactose intolerant

khoa: [pulls out a packet of lactaid] i know

anyway!! after a bunch of shenanigans and awkward actually-taking-care-of-tim moments, something big happens where bruce and tim are in deep trouble and khoa breaks cover to burst in and rescue both batman & robin and all secrets come out. tim is shocked that he didn’t figure out who khoa was (in tim’s defense, he’s had a Lot going on) and bruce is soooo mad he didn’t see through the disguise, but also bruce is. grateful. that khoa has been there for tim, especially when khoa finally gets to do a full “get your head out of your ass” rant about the various ways tim has been pretending to be way more okay than he is.

khoa: if you’re going to CARE about people so much the least you can do is! pay attention to them!! this kid is your problem, act like it!

bruce: sounds like he might be Our problem now

khoa: only because i don’t trust you to get the job done 😤

(ALSO because khoa is literally there to lurk and observe he notices the league slipping into gotham and they end up rescuing a resurrected jason early.)

anyway i just think the concept of khoa being tim’s deus ex machina adult is so fun. like tim is on some international mission with young justice and it seems like all hope is lost and then freaking ghost-maker swans in and takes out all the enemies and gives tim a whole rant about How Is Bruce Letting You Run Around Like This, Does He Know What You’re Getting Up To In Your Spare Time, Where Even Is He. the vibe is ghost-maker dropping a (carefully patched up) robin on wayne manor doorstep with a sticky note on tim’s forehead reading TAKE BETTER CARE OF YOUR THINGS.

(bonus au of this au from aubrey where bruce DOES see through khoa’s disguise:

Tim: Bruce, this is my uncle--

Bruce: ANTON?!

Khoa: 😘

Tim: oh my god DID YOU FUCK MY FAKE UNCLE, BRUCE?)

also please look at this khoa and tim art again for the vibes

[thebubblesareevil]

More Big brother Danny Au

Okay so in the case of some adoptions the child can get their records when they turn 18. I’m thinking when Danny turns 18 he decides to look up his birth parents not really planning to go meet them but just to learn about them. When he learns that they both died and that he has a little brother his entire core demands he makes sure he is okay because he knows what losing your parents can do to you. He finds out where his brother is living now and immediately flys to Gotham to see him. Danny follows him invisibly all day and just when his core has settled after being reassured that his brother is okay and happy he witnesses him opening a secret passage which leads to Batman’s secret hideout. Danny is freaking out now as he learns that his brother is NOT safe and sound and apparently vigilantism is genetic wtf jazz is gonna have a field day. So Danny starts following Batman and robin on patrol as often as possible between work, school, ruling the infinite realms, learning how to cook so he doesn’t burn his dorm down. At the very least sending a clone to make sure dick is not horribly mangled. Even going so far as to follow the YJ team on missions every now and then helping out just here and there. Nothing to big but over time he sorta adopts the whole team and even sends a clone to look over Kaldur and Artemis when they are undercover. Sending out his aura to make sure nobody approaches when they are vulnerable or they are planning. He keeps an eye on Conner to make sure he’s not at risk of destabilizing. He makes sure Wally always has a little extra food stored away and that Zatanna isn’t targeted by any spirits.

Danny is stretched thin but refuses to leave them unprotected. He doesn’t approach Dick as his older brother for fear of dragging him into more danger than he already is but it all comes crashing down when Wally is not as fast as flash and impulse and is going to die. Desperate to protect Danny overshadows Wally while he’s running pushing as much power as he can through Wally to catch up to the other speedsters. Everyone is surprised and confused but at the same time overjoyed that Wally is gonna be okay until the crisis is averted and Wally is non responsive standing there with glowing green eyes vibrating in place. They try to get through to him when Danny is spit out of Wally and is convulsing on the ground after turning back to his living form. Everyone is freaking out and immediately call for medics to help both of them. Not understanding what’s going on they try their best to help them both but neither of them are showing any signs of injury in fact Wally wakes up soon after. But the strange man still keeps convulsing with no obvious cause. They hook him up to machines to monitor his heart rate which was a little high but strong.

Unkown to them this is exactly the problem danny overshadowed a speedster whose heart rate was 10 times faster than an average human let alone a half ghost so he’s been having multiple heart attacks that show as a completely normal heart rate. In the meantime Batman runs multiple blood tests and other than a large amount of an unidentified substance that seems to flow through his there is one thing that concerns Bruce more than anything. The computer has found a dna match in the system…with his son.

Okay this was longer than planned but enjoy 😊

[itsblueberry13-blog]

#This is the single greatest essay on the Doyelism of Bruce Wayne's abuse I have ever read#OP I love you#THIS IS WHY I'M HERE#Batverse is the most nuanced and sympathetic portrayal of an abused family and realistic portrayal of an abuser I have ever encountered#The only thing that came close was the first three seasons of Supernatural#John Winchester was never just one thing in the narrative before mid-S3#after that the show decided to make Dean the biggest woobie there ever was and it all went down the toilet#there's so much complexity and tragedy and aching humanity in real life abusive relationships#it's the difference between humanized portrayal and apologia#it's why so many antis belong to the Good Dad Bruce cult. Purity culture runs on binaries of good and bad#The idea of acknowledging Bruce as an abusive father and empathizing with him as a scared and broken human being#acknowledging that toxic love exists#accepting that giving an abusive parent the opportunity to redeem himself and reconcile with his kids#is actually the best thing for them all#it requires a kind of compassion and nuance and tolerance that the black and white thinking of antis simply can't accommodate#I think it's also why I feel like fandom has changed for the worse since the '00s#people used to be fans of the Batverse because it was a fucked up family. queer people in particular saw ourselves in the uncategorised#unspoken and conflicted relationships that spoke to our understanding of kinship and found family#we related to those jagged and unlovely edges#but ig the reboot attracted younger readers who saw themselves in the children#and wanted the kind of uncomplicated respectable nuclear family they want for themselves#there is such a rejection of anything transgressive or...messy in the pop cultural landscape now. everything must fit into boxes.#the tags are getting away from me but yeah#the Batfam as it is is *important*#and it's on the fandom to acknowledge the story for what it is before engaging with that whatever way they want to#bat meta#favourite#anti bruce wayne

By @spite-and-waffles

#bruce wayne#totally agree with all of this#though i think it's notable that his internal narration is actually very rarely 'i'd never hurt my kids'#he's usually written as constantly thinking about how he has hurt and could hurt his proteges#but it's more a part of his guilt complex where he both is and isn't personally responsible because 'being close to him is dangerous'#and so his solution is to put them at a further emotional distance. which does not help at all#the most glaring example of this is batman and robin eternal#which is just dozens of issues of dick and jason and tim discussing how hurtful he's been as a parental figure#and bruce knows that he is (though his idea of what part of his behavior is hurtful is different from theirs)#but ultimately the narrative implies that the real problem is the emotional distance he's been creating to 'solve' this#and then hilariously we never even see him choose to not do the emotional distance thing#because he literally had amnesia during the entire story and thus was not there to learn any lessons from the conflict#although you do get a sense that the only reason the kids are discussing how he hurt them is BECAUSE he's not there#so there's that#still cannot believe the heartwarming emotional climax of the story that reassures everyone bruce loves them#is literally damian just telling them that actually bruce DOES talk positively about them all the time. just not to their face#do tynion and snyder have siblings??? because it's usually a bad sign when parents only praise a child behind their back to the OTHER child#anyway i think it's interesting that even when writers are in the 'loving' step of the cycle#(or just trying to prove that bruce IS a good parent deep down. which is what a lot of the 'loving' step tends to boil down to)#bruce's behavior is STILL not in line with what a responsible caregiver's would be

By @forevercloudnine

#(additional thesis: the format of long form comics has accidentally made bruce a shockingly realistic abuser too.) That would be an amazing essay!

okay, this is gonna be a lot more stream of consciousness and less polished than the post these asks are in response too, but i have finally looped back around to wanting to talk about it so here goes.

First off, I don't mean to say that Bruce is, like, the most realistic depiction of an abuser ever. When I say "shockingly" I mean it less like "very" and more like "it's shocking how close they got considering literally none of this was intentional."

We talk a lot about the inherent flaws in a massive comic universe like this--so many different writers and different books and different eras bring different ideas to a character. And when that goes bad, it's awful. You end up with characters who have no baseline personality at all, who act in incomprehensible ways, who are blatantly dancing to the whims of the current writers.

But also, there's something to that exact same trapping of the medium that I love. Because people are people; we have personalities, but none of us are the same person at every moment of every day. And in a weird and accidental way, comics can hit on that so well. Different writers show the same character from slightly different angles, different eras give the most gradual character development achieved in possibly any medium, and you end up with beautifully complicated and multifaceted and dynamic characters. (Who, yes, also all have some stories that are just terrible outliers, but we're going with the average here, alright.)

So. To Bruce. And being an abusive parent.

accidental nuance.

The thing about a lot of fictional abusers is that they're completely, obviously awful all the time. They live perpetually at 100%. They walk on stage just to do something abusive, and then walk off stage until their next cue to be cruel. (There are also very nuanced and genuine portrayals of abuse out there, but let me compare and contrast here)

But Bruce? Occasionally Bruce is really great to his kids and manages to support them just how they need it. More often he makes some attempt, but can't really get there (typically because he refuses to show the degree of emotional openness that his kids need). Sometimes he just kinda doesn't consider his kids or their feelings, or he cuts them down, or he relies on them to support him. Periodically, he is so blatantly awful it's obvious to everyone.

I threw out a brief comment in that post about "a parent who is nice to their kids sometimes and abusive other times is the definition of an abusive parent" and that's exactly it. The person who is always 100% awful surely does exist somewhere, but that's not really...the most common scenario.

No matter how good or bad a parent Bruce is, he is never a flat supporting character (on account of, yknow, being dc’s single most popular character with a million starring roles). He doesn’t appear in comics just to be abusive and then leave. Even when he appears in, say, a single issue of a comic about one of his kids to act as an antagonistic force, you can guarantee he’s simultaneously appearing as the hero in another book.

And most mediums just...don’t have 80+ years to slowly build this story of a man getting gradually more closed off, getting less supportive towards his kids, then more likely to lash out, and escalating the frequency with which he does, until it’s a predictable pattern, while also having the space to maintain him as a character completely separate from his children.

cycles.

This is absolutely the most unintentional of all, and yet.

The perpetual rotation of comics writers with different ideas on Batman and his parenting approximates something...weirdly close to a realistic cycle of abuse. In the shortest description possible, that cycle is: abuser escalates -> reaches their worst point -> acts super nice and loving again in the wake of things -> repeat. And like...how many times has Bruce being abusive to his kids under one writer been followed by another writer portraying him as more open and understanding and kind to them? How many times has he insisted (even in private narration) he never hurts his kids, despite obvious history to the contrary? And he always reverts back to hurting them.

And, of course, looking at any of those nice moments in isolation, they are just nice. Looking at them with a irl perspective, it’s obviously just a tug-of-war between writers. Bruce saying he’d never hurt his kids isn’t intended to be an aspect of his abuse; it’s intended as a pleasant retcon. He doesn’t always revert to abuse because he’s an abuser with agency; he reverts because he’s a fictional character under multiple writer.

But when I started to look at it with an overall, in-universe perspective...god it is wildly easy to see those moments as the honeymoon period in his ongoing abuse. (And I don’t mean to say that’s the only way to look at them. I acknowledge writer intent and regularly enjoy when Bruce is a good dad. But I also regularly pull back to a big picture view and go like. hm. there’s a pattern here.)

a tangent.

So weirdly, the first thing that made my brain start spiraling in this direction on more than a subconscious level was the way this manifests in fanfic. Like, let's ignore all the fanworks where Bruce is portrayed as a purely good dad for the moment, okay? We're only considering fics where his abuse and flaws as a parent are fully acknowledged. And (in my anecdotal experience) even then, the conclusion is almost never that the kids should just cut him out. The conclusion is about making him a better parent. Or forcing him to at least grapple with his failings. Or giving the kids distance and safety nets, not so they can avoid him, but so they can still interact with him, just in a safer way.

And I don't mean to imply that those are bad conclusions! They are, by and large, written as incredibly compelling and complicated ways to deal with the struggle between "Bruce hurts his kids" and "his kids love him."

But it's a fascinating phenomenon to me. I can't think of a single other fandom I've seen where something like that happens. I can't imagine that flying somewhere else. Even if the protagonist loves their abusive parent or partner, the happy fic ending is always about dissuading them of that notion and getting them away.

...because all those abusers are flat and evil. But Bruce is too complicated to dismiss. Even if you do hate him, you understand the kids loving him, and you want happiness for them.

“realism” and the important point.

In terms of art and storytelling and, idk, getting at the heart of the human condition or whatever, depicting an abuser with depth and realism and ups and downs is valuable on its own. And art has inherent value as art, but in terms of “does this improve the world,” it’s also valuable to portray abusers as human so we can understand and be able to address abuse.

But the part that feels even more important to me is how key that is for the kids.

When you see the other kind of fictional abuser--the 100% evil one--you hate them from the start, because of course you do. And you hate them the whole way through. And when their victim is having complicated feelings about it, you're maybe thinking "ah, yes, I am aware that abuse is difficult and can mess with your head" but you aren't really feeling it. This person is so obviously evil. And you'd never say it about a real person, with real feelings, but with this fictional character...why do they even care about their abuser? Why do they have mixed feelings when this piece of fiction is so clearly black and white?

The thing about Bruce is that (even if you are jaded and hate him now) there was probably a time when you really wanted him to be a good parent. He's Batman! He doesn't walk on stage just to be evil; he walks on stage to be the hero, or the mentor, or the teammate, and that's how you meet him. And then you see him with his kids, and it's so easy to latch onto the nice moments. It's so tempting to point back to better times--forgetting or ignoring his flaws in those eras too.

He was a nice guy, even if he wasn't perfect. He's more closed off, but he's still trying. Okay, he hit his adult son once, but it was in a really dark moment, you see. Well maybe he's done it a few times. Look, though, he's being a great dad right now! Alright he manipulates his kids regularly and gives them little positive feedback, but he's a good dad underneath, really, we've seen it. Okay so maybe now he periodically hits a kid out of nowhere and then pretends it never happened, but he's not hitting anyone in between!

You can just...really easily put yourself in his kid’s shoes and get it, even if you’re simultaneously condemning Bruce from an objective third person perspective. Because Bruce was never introduced to be hated, never introduced to be evil. He just hurts them anyway.