#hero and warrior motif | Explore Tumblr posts and blogs

jonsnowunemploymentera · 2 months ago

Text

I rarely speculate on Patchface’s seemingly prophetic jingles because, unless they refer to past events, it’s always a challenging exercise to parse out what they might mean. However, a few things stuck out to me as I was revisiting the ACoK prologue, especially when considering how this chapter works as a narrative mirror to Dany X, the AGoT prologue, and other chapters that come later in the series.

ACoK’s prologue takes place in Dragonstone, where Maester Cressen looks at the red comet in the sky and considers it an omen—"prophesies in the sky", as he calls it. This in itself isn’t particularly remarkable, as most characters who see the comet interpret it as a sign of something supernatural. Then, Shireen and her bizarre fool, Patchface, enter.

Shireen wants to see the raven that recently arrived from the Citadel—a white raven that marks the end of the longest summer in recorded memory. This, Cressen acknowledges, is certainly noteworthy.

And yet . . . and yet . . . the comet burned even by day now, while pale grey steam rose from the hot vents of Dragonmont behind the castle, and yestermorn a white raven had brought word from the Citadel itself, word long-expected but no less fearful for all that, word of summer’s end. Omens, all. Too many to deny. What does it all mean? he wanted to cry.

And Cressen is right; all of these are omens connected to prophecy. According to prophecy, the end of a long summer precedes the rise of a hero destined to wake dragons from stone and fight the darkness.

“In ancient books of Asshai it is written that there will come a day after a long summer when the stars bleed and the cold breath of darkness falls heavy on the world. In this dread hour a warrior shall draw from the fire a burning sword. And that sword shall be Lightbringer, the Red Sword of Heroes, and he who clasps it shall be Azor Ahai come again, and the darkness shall flee before him.” Davos I, ACoK

It is written in prophecy as well. When the red star bleeds and the darkness gathers, Azor Ahai shall be born again amidst smoke and salt to wake dragons out of stone. The bleeding star has come and gone, and Dragonstone is the place of smoke and salt. Davos III, ASoS

“He is not dead. Stannis is the Lord’s chosen, destined to lead the fight against the dark. I have seen it in the flames, read of it in ancient prophecy. When the red star bleeds and the darkness gathers, Azor Ahai shall be born again amidst smoke and salt to wake dragons out of stone. Dragon-stone is the place of smoke and salt.” Jon X, ADWD

The omens that unsettle old Master Cressen foretell the birth of a hero of fire. Daenerys Targaryen, in the chapter that directly precedes this prologue (Dany X, AGoT), became that hero when she emerged from Drogo's pyre as "the Unburnt" and "the Mother of Dragons".

It is important to note that Dany X is a direct narrative parallel to the AGoT prologue, where creature of ice were seen again. The return of ice demanded the birth of fire, as all things must remain in balance. And Maester Cressen makes note of this as well,

The smallfolk said that a long summer meant an even longer winter […]

As a mirror to the AGoT prologue and Dany X, the ACoK prologue is full of references to Azor Ahai and the Long Night—too many to ignore. What’s particularly interesting is how this prologue circles back to a motif first introduced in Dany X: the birth of dragons. This comes to the forefront when Patchface utters his first prophecy in the series, which leads to an intriguing conversation between Cressen and Shireen about dragons coming to life; this conversation is occasionally interrupted by more cryptic jingles from the fool.

The fool turned his patched and piebald head to watch Pylos climb the steep iron steps to the rookery. His bells rang with the motion. “Under the sea, the birds have scales for feathers,” he said, clang-a-langing. “I know, I know, oh, oh, oh.”

Before I proceed, I want to address my thoughts on the phrase "under the sea". I subscribe to the theory that Patchface's prophetic ability was awakened because he drowned and was brought back to life. After his "death" at sea, he became an emissary of the Drowned God.

The boy washed up on the third day. Maester Cressen had come down with the rest, to help put names to the dead. When they found the fool he was naked, his skin white and wrinkled and powdered with wet sand. Cressen had thought him another corpse, but when Jommy grabbed his ankles to drag him off to the burial wagon, the boy coughed water and sat up. To his dying day, Jommy had sworn that Patchface’s flesh was clammy cold. No one ever explained those two days the fool had been lost in the sea. The fisherfolk liked to say a mermaid had taught him to breathe water in return for his seed.

Thus, “under the sea” could refer to the process of dying and being reborn; note that this phrase often appears narratively as an accompaniment to talk of death. More generally, "under the sea" could represent a state in which suspended life is reanimated. Keeping this in mind, the image of birds having scales for feathers “under the sea” refers to dragons, which exist as suspended life forms encased in stone until they are brought to life

The conversation between Cressen and Shireen that directly follows Patchface’s first jingle continues the theme of stone dragons coming to life.

“Sit with me, child.” Cressen beckoned her closer. “This is early to come calling, scarce past dawn. You should be snug in your bed.” “I had bad dreams,” Shireen told him. “About the dragons. They were coming to eat me.”

Though Cressen tries to assuage her fears by telling her that dragons carved from stone cannot be brought to life, Shireen aptly remarks on the significance of the comet in the sky.

“What about the thing in the sky? Dalla and Matrice were talking by the well, and Dalla said she heard the red woman tell Mother that it was dragonsbreath. If the dragons are breathing, doesn’t that mean they are coming to life?”

Dany X proved that stone dragons have indeed been born. But Daenerys is the least of Shireen's worries. While her dragon-related nightmares are tied to Azor Ahai and the prophecy of his coming, it is her own father she must truly fear.

What’s truly puzzling, however, is Patchface’s next jingle, uttered as Cressen and Shireen turn their discussion toward the end of the long summer.

Patchface rang his bells. “It is always summer under the sea,” he intoned. “The merwives wear nennymoans in their hair and weave gowns of silver seaweed. I know, I know, oh, oh, oh.”

In a word, this is nonsense. "Nennymoans" don’t exist and are never mentioned again after this chapter. The term doesn’t refer to anything in the real world either. So, what exactly is Patchface talking about? I’ll have to take some liberties here to try and tease out the meaning behind this.

"Nennymoans," as a few fans have suggested, could refer to anemones. An anemone could be one of two things: a multicolored flower in the buttercup family that blooms in spring or fall, or a multicolored sea creature that resembles these flowers and grows in the depths of the ocean. Given that this chapter centers on the Long Night and dragons, this jingle likely plays into those themes.

Anemones, in whatever form, are tied to the cycle of life and death:

Greek legends say that Anemos, the Wind, sends his namesakes the Anemones in the earliest spring days as the heralds of his coming. […] Greek myth gives the anemone two meanings, the arrival of spring breezes and the loss of a loved one to death […] (Flower Meanings: Anemone)

This cycle of life and death is central to the Ironborn belief: “What is dead may never die, but rises again, harder and stronger”. With spring winds—or flowers—in their hair, the mermaids become agents of this process.

This cycle of life and death is also closely related to the waking of dragons:

She heard a crack, the sound of shattering stone. The platform of wood and brush and grass began to shift and collapse in upon itself. Bits of burning wood slid down at her, and Dany was showered with ash and cinders. And something else came crashing down, bouncing and rolling, to land at her feet; a chunk of curved rock, pale and veined with gold, broken and smoking. The roaring filled the world, yet dimly through the firefall Dany heard women shriek and children cry out in wonder. Only death can pay for life. Dany X, AGoT

Dragons are also tied to the Lands of the Long Summer, which mirror the Lands of Always Winter—a place of death. Ice versus fire, death versus life, dragons or Others. This is the essence of the Long Night.

Other clues in the text help us understand the mermaids’ silver gowns:

On the crown of the hill four-and-forty monstrous stone ribs rose from the earth like the trunks of great pale trees. The sight made Aeron’s heart beat faster. Nagga had been the first sea dragon, the mightiest ever to rise from the waves. She fed on krakens and leviathans and drowned whole islands in her wrath, yet the Grey King had slain her and the Drowned God had changed her bones to stone so that men might never cease to wonder at the courage of the first of kings. Nagga’s ribs became the beams and pillars of his longhall, just as her jaws became his throne. For a thousand years and seven he reigned here, Aeron recalled. Here he took his mermaid wife and planned his wars against the Storm God. From here he ruled both stone and salt, wearing robes of woven seaweed and a tall pale crown made from Nagga’s teeth. The Drowned Man, AFFC

The only other time seaweed is woven into cloth is in Aeron’s thoughts, as he reflects on the Grey King, the legendary figure who slew the fire-breathing sea dragon Nagga. The Grey King wore gowns of seaweed and decorated his hall in a similar fashion. This was where his warriors feasted:

But that was in the dawn of days, when mighty men still dwelt on earth and sea. The hall had been warmed by Nagga’s living fire, which the Grey King had made his thrall. On its walls hung tapestries woven from silver seaweed most pleasing to the eyes. The Grey King’s warriors had feasted on the bounty of the sea at a table in the shape of a great starfish, whilst seated upon thrones carved from mother-of-pearl. Gone, all the glory gone. Men were smaller now. Their lives had grown short. The Storm God drowned Nagga’s fire after the Grey King’s death, the chairs and tapestries had been stolen, the roof and walls had rotted away. Even the Grey King’s great throne of fangs had been swallowed by the sea. Only Nagga’s bones endured to remind the ironborn of all the wonder that had been. The Drowned Man, AFFC

Aeron believes that those who serve the Drowned God will be taken to feast in his halls when they die (The Prophet, AFFC; The Foresaken, TWoW). This evokes imagery of Valhalla and its inhabitants, the Einherjar—dead warriors who are destined to be reborn to fight in the final battle during Ragnarok. The Valkyries, who take the dead to Valhalla, parallel the mermaids mentioned in Patchface’s jingle. Both partake in the cycle of life and death, acting as agents of an apocalypse.

If we associate “under the sea” with the cycle of death and rebirth, then gowns of silver seaweed might symbolize either armor or the more spectral funerary garments worn by the dead (or ghosts). The latter seems more likely, given Shireen’s next line:

Shireen giggled. “I should like a gown of silver seaweed.”

This is a child’s innocent wish—but tragically, it will come true. Shireen will receive her silver gown, her funerary garment, soon. The next line seals her fate and is what inspired this post in the first place:

“Under the sea, it snows up,” said the fool, “and the rain is dry as bone. I know, I know, oh, oh, oh.”

It puzzled me for quite some time what Patchface was referring to here. But given that this chapter focuses on the Long Night and dragons, this jingle is clearly referencing the latter—especially considering it directly follows Shireen’s unwitting prophecy of her impending death for the sake of a dragon.

On the surface, this third jingle doesn’t seem connected to the birth of dragons at all. However, remember that Azor Ahai will be born after a long summer, amidst “smoke and salt". And remember, this prologue is set on Dragonstone, which sits on the Dragonmount—a volcano where dragons once lay, where ash and smoke billow up (this detail will be important later). The jingle seems to describe the conditions that breed dragons! “Snow falls up… rain [is] dry as bone” clearly refers to “smoke and salt".

Up until this point, you’d likely think this jingle refers to Dany and her dragons—and you’d be right, but only partially. From this point forward, we see that Patchface’s jingles align closely with another character who is being positioned as Azor Ahai—Jon Snow.

Let’s revisit the second jingle about mermaids with “nennymoans” in their hair. It’s noteworthy that although Patchface often uses the sea as the backdrop for his prophecies, mermaids only appear twice in the entire series. The first instance is in this prologue, where they seem to evoke imagery of life after death. The second instance occurs just before a pivotal moment—before a Targaryen prince, a dragon, is put to sleep.

Patchface jumped up. “I will lead it!” His bells rang merrily. “We will march into the sea and out again. Under the waves we will ride seahorses, and mermaids will blow seashells to announce our coming, oh, oh, oh.” Jon XIII, ADWD

For context, this prophecy follows Jon’s announcement of his intent to lead the ranging beyond the Wall—a ranging that would surely lead him and his men to death’s door. Patchface’s assertion that “[they] will march into the sea and out again” could symbolize the process of wight-ification—a perverse form of new life springing forth after death.

The mention of seahorses is also intriguing. It could refer to serpentine sea creatures, which ties into the broader theme of dragons and their role in the cycle of life and death. Dragons serve as vehicles for new life after a period of death, a theme that is mirrored in Daenerys’s campaign in Slaver’s Bay. However, I’m also inclined to think of Kelpies—grey or white sea-horses that lure men and women to their death under the sea. The imagery of grey or white sea-horses calls to mind part of Patchface’s second jingle, where mermaids wove gowns of silver seaweed.

While I won’t speculate too much on the point about riding seahorses, it’s worth noting how Patchface’s third jingle relates to Jon Snow. This particular jingle, which references snow falling up, has two narrative parallels—and they complicate things quite a bit. The first parallel comes later in this prologue, just before Cressen meets his end:

Patchface sprawled half on top of him, motley fool’s face pressed close to his own. He had lost his tin helm with its antlers and bells. “Under the sea, you fall up,” he declared. “I know, I know, oh, oh, oh.” Giggling, the fool rolled off, bounded to his feet, and did a little dance.

The dichotomy here is fascinating. If the first mention of snow relates to the “smoke and salt” that provide the necessary elements for the birth of dragons, what does it mean when the focus shifts to Cressen himself? “You fall up” evokes the image of a person being lifted from the ground—resurrected. Where the first instance of snow falling up might reference the birth of dragons, this second instance could refer to the rise of their natural enemies, the wights.

That this second instance of “falling up” refers to the creation of wights—perversions of life after death—is further reinforced by the unsettling tune Patchface sings in the preceding paragraph.

Over the clatter of knife and plate and the low mutter of table talk, he heard Patchface singing, “… dance, my lord, dance my lord,” to the accompaniment of jangling cowbells. The same dreadful song he’d sung this morning. “The shadows come to stay, my lord, stay my lord, stay my lord.”

But this isn’t the first time Patchface sings this. When Shireen finally sees the white raven, Patchface unleashes his prophecy:

“Clever bird, clever man, clever clever fool,” said Patchface, jangling. “Oh, clever clever clever fool.” He began to sing. “The shadows come to dance, my lord, dance my lord, dance my lord,” he sang, hopping from one foot to the other and back again. “The shadows come to stay, my lord, stay my lord, stay my lord.” He jerked his head with each word, the bells in his antlers sending up a clangor.

I think it’s clear that the shadows Patchface refers to are the Others, who are often described as “white shadows” throughout the text. Remember, this chapter mirrors the AGoT prologue, which featured Waymar Royce’s confrontation with an Other—“dance with me, then", Waymar challenged. That was just before he died at the hands of the Other and rose as a wight. Shireen also states that Patchface began signing this tune only recently—perhaps once the comet became visible in the sky.

Jon Snow, a narrative parallel to Waymar, begins his twelfth chapter of ADWD fighting the dead atop the Wall. Though his dream and its immediate aftermath suggest he will be victorious, the specter of death follows him until the next chapter, when he is assassinated by his own brothers. This sense of death lingers as he meets with Queen Selyse, Shireen, and Patchface in Jon XIII.

They found Her Grace sewing by the fire, whilst her fool danced about to music only he could hear, the cowbells on his antlers clanging. “The crow, the crow,” Patchface cried when he saw Jon. “Under the sea the crows are white as snow, I know, I know, oh, oh, oh.” Princess Shireen was curled up in a window seat, her hood drawn up to hide the worst of the greyscale that had disfigured her face. Jon XIII, ADWD

Other than the ACoK prologue, this is the only time snow is mentioned in Patchface’s prophecies. And this second instance is even more puzzling than the first. What does it mean for Jon, the crow, to be “white as snow”? If the first instance says “snow falls up", does that mean Jon, who is the snow, will rise?

The entirety of ADWD is centered around Jon’s impending death.

You are wrong. I have dreamed of your Wall, Jon Snow. Great was the lore that raised it, and great the spells locked beneath its ice. We walk beneath one of the hinges of the world.” Melisandre gazed up at it, her breath a warm moist cloud in the air. “This is my place as it is yours, and soon enough you may have grave need of me. Do not refuse my friendship, Jon. I have seen you in the storm, hard-pressed, with enemies on every side. You have so many enemies. Shall I tell you their names?” “I know their names.” “Do not be so certain.” The ruby at Melisandre’s throat gleamed red. “It is not the foes who curse you to your face that you must fear, but those who smile when you are looking and sharpen their knives when you turn your back. You would do well to keep your wolf close beside you. Ice, I see, and daggers in the dark. Blood frozen red and hard, and naked steel. It was very cold.” Jon I, ADWD

But, a key point is that Jon will return, for Melisandre has seen it in her flames.

Death, thought Melisandre. The skulls are death. The flames crackled softly, and in their crackling she heard the whispered name Jon Snow. His long face floated before her, limned in tongues of red and orange, appearing and disappearing again, a shadow half-seen behind a fluttering curtain. Now he was a man, now a wolf, now a man again. Mel I, ADWD

But what’s interesting is that the language surrounding Jon’s death and rebirth mirrors the birth of dragons—“smoke and salt”, “snow fall[ing] up”, and “rain dry as bone” mirror the “ashes and cinders” in Mel’s visions of the boy.

And keep him away from the red woman. She knows who he is. She sees things in her fires.” Arya, he thought, hoping it was so. “Ashes and cinders.” “Kings and dragons.” Dragons again. For a moment Jon could almost see them too, coiling in the night, their dark wings outlined against a sea of flame. Jon VIII, ADWD

Mel is the first and only person in the series to recite the prophecy of Azor Ahai being born amidst salt and smoke to wake dragons. In fact, she always precedes it with “I have seen it in the flames”. Though Daenerys fulfilled those requirements in her last AGoT chapter, it’s still noteworthy that the narrative continues to present this prophecy as something that is yet to reach full completion. From a Doylist perspective, you don’t repeat a motif if it is no longer relevant to the ongoing narrative, especially when it is presented in a particular context; in this case, as it’s continuously presented in Jon’s Dance arc.

Mel is the primary person in the current timeline who links the waking of dragons to Azor Ahai, and every time she looks for this hero, she sees Jon!

Yet now she could not even seem to find her king. I pray for a glimpse of Azor Ahai, and R’hllor shows me only Snow. Mel I, ADWD

It’s striking that the last time the idea of dragons waking as part of Azor Ahai’s rise comes up in Jon X, just three chapters before his death.

Melisandre’s face darkened. “That creature is dangerous. Many a time I have glimpsed him in my flames. Sometimes there are skulls about him, and his lips are red with blood.” A wonder you haven’t had the poor man burned. All it would take was a word in the queen’s ear, and Patchface would feed her fires. “You see fools in your fire, but no hint of Stannis?” “When I search for him all I see is snow.” The same useless answer. […] “Would you know if the king was dead?” Jon asked the red priestess. “He is not dead. Stannis is the Lord’s chosen, destined to lead the fight against the dark. I have seen it in the flames, read of it in ancient prophecy. When the red star bleeds and the darkness gathers, Azor Ahai shall be born again amidst smoke and salt to wake dragons out of stone. Dragonstone is the place of smoke and salt.” Jon had heard all this before. “Stannis Baratheon was the Lord of Dragonstone, but he was not born there. He was born at Storm’s End, like his brothers.” He frowned. “And what of Mance? Is he lost as well? What do your fires show?” “The same, I fear. Only snow.” Snow. […] “You are seeing cinders dancing in the updraft.” “I am seeing skulls. And you. I see your face every time I look into the flames. The danger that I warned you of grows very close now.” “Daggers in the dark […]” Jon X, ADWD

This passage not only foreshadows Jon’s impending death, but once again, we see “cinders dancing in the updraft”—a phrase that echoes “snow falls up, and the rain is dry as bone". Both the ACoK prologue and this chapter discuss the waking of dragons, and in both, “snow” is linked to the conditions necessary for such an event. This raises interesting questions about Melisandre’s visions of “smoke and salt”—what exactly did she see?

Regardless, Jon is quite firmly wrapped up in the mysteries surrounding Azor Ahai and the waking of dragons. Not just in this chapter, but a common motif that comes up in his Dance arc is the aspect of sacrifice to wake dragons.

Burning dead children had ceased to trouble Jon Snow; live ones were another matter. Two kings to wake the dragon. The father first and then the son, so both die kings. The words had been murmured by one of the queen’s men as Maester Aemon had cleaned his wounds. Jon had tried to dismiss them as his fever talking. Aemon had demurred. “There is power in a king’s blood,” the old maester had warned, “and better men than Stannis have done worse things than this.” The king can be harsh and unforgiving, aye, but a babe still on the breast? Only a monster would give a living child to the flames. Jon I, ADWD

Much of this revolves around the sacrifice of a living child. Jon sends Mance’s son away with Gilly, believing he’s bypassed such a tragedy. But GRRM has confirmed that Stannis will sacrifice his own daughter, reinforcing the theme of royal blood as a powerful magical catalyst. The prophecies set in stone in the ACoK prologue through Patchface and Shireen are thus mirrored in Jon’s Dance arc.

What’s particularly interesting is how the idea of burning dead children to wake dragons is paralleled by Dany X, when Rhaego was placed in Drogo’s pyre, bringing dragons into the world and “rebirthing” Daenerys as Azor Ahai. Dany had her dragon eggs waiting to be brought to life, but at the Wall, there are no such eggs. So where will the dragon come from? Jon himself questions this:

“That I would speak to Stannis, though I doubt my words will sway him. A king’s first duty is to defend the realm, and Mance attacked it. His Grace is not like to forget that. My father used to say that Stannis Baratheon was a just man. No one has ever said he was forgiving.” Jon paused, frowning. “I would sooner take off Mance’s head myself. He was a man of the Night’s Watch, once. By rights, his life belongs to us.” “Pyp says that Lady Melisandre means to give him to the flames, to work some sorcery.” “Pyp should learn to hold his tongue. I have heard the same from others. King’s blood, to wake a dragon. Where Melisandre thinks to find a sleeping dragon, no one is quite sure. It’s nonsense. Mance’s blood is no more royal than mine own. He has never worn a crown nor sat a throne. He’s a brigand, nothing more. There’s no power in brigand’s blood.” Sam I, AFFC

As of Jon XIII, ADWD, there are no dragon eggs at the Wall. But what we do have is a Targaryen prince—Jon Snow—bleeding out in the snow, growing hard with cold as all memory of warmth flees from him (Bran III, AGoT). Jon himself is the dragon waiting to be woken, a “sleeping dragon” not of stone, but of blood and prophecy. Exactly how he will be woken remains a mystery, but we see a fascinating thread running from ACoK through ADWD regarding Jon’s role in the series�� central conflict.

In the ACoK prologue, Patchface sang of mermaids with spring in their hair, weaving funerary gowns. In ADWD, he sings of these same mermaids blowing seashells to announce the coming of those who have descended into the sea’s depths and emerged alive once more. How intriguing that both of these jingles are framed by discussions of dragons.

“A grey girl on a dying horse. Daggers in the dark. A promised prince, born in smoke and salt. It seems to me that you make nothing but mistakes, my lady. Where is Stannis? What of Rattleshirt and his spearwives? Where is my sister?” “All your questions shall be answered. Look to the skies, Lord Snow. And when you have your answers, send to me. Winter is almost upon us now. I am your only hope.” Jon XIII, ADWD

The first two prophecies have already come to pass. The third, however, still looms over the narrative. Yet, it too will soon reach completion. A crow has now become white as snow—dead. But as in Patchface’s prophecy, he will emerge from under the sea—a dragon reborn, the promised prince who will save his realm.

#this was really only gonna be a one pager that was like: isn't it interesting how patchface's acok prophecies mirror jon in dance?#and then it just spiraled out of control 🫠#anyway its finally out of my hands rfnruifne;ndxwioux #asoiaf #valyrianscrolls #patchface #maester cressen #shireen baratheon #the long night #dragons #azor ahai #jon snow #daenerys targaryen #melisandre of asshai

43 notes · View notes

laurasimonsdaughter · 2 months ago

Text

How loathly is the lady

The motif of the loathly lady shows up primarily in (Celtic and English) Medieval saga's and Romances and it typically involves a knight or warrior who is confronted by a physically repulsive woman and shows her hospitality (The Daughter Of King Under-Waves; The Saga of Hrolf Kraki), agrees to kiss/embrace her (The Adventures of the Sons of Eochaid Mugmedon), or agrees to marry her (The Wedding of Sir Gawain and Dame Ragnelle; The Marriage of Sir Gawain; The Wife of Bath's Tale). When this respect is shown, the loathly lady transforms into a beautiful one, sometimes this takes a further proof that the knight is willing to let her decide about herself instead of imposing his will on her.

But to my surprise I recently learned that the Scottish ballad King Henry (Child ballad 32) is also considered a Loathly Lady tale. This lady does a whole lot more than require respect, however:

In "King Henry", the king spends the night in a haunted hall during a hunting trip, and meets a lady who seems like she is no less than "a fiend that comes from hell". In a way, she does ask for hospitality, but she does it by demanding that King Henry let her eat his horse, his greyhounds and his goshawks. Which hurts him a great deal. Finally she tells him to make her a bed out of heather, lie down with her and take her for his bride. He complies with heavy heart, but in the morning he wakes to find the fairest lady he has ever seen lying beside him, who tells him: . “I’ve met with many a gentle knight That gave me such a fill, But never before with a courteous knight That gave me all my will.”

This behaviour is quite a bit more on the monstrous side, from where I'm standing. Especially since the king does not know the loathly lady. It would make more sense to put him through such terrible trials if he was atoning to win a lover back.

Interestingly, this story does share some notable elements with The Daughter of the King Under-Waves, where there really is an element of atonement. In that tale the hero Diarmaid wins his lady with hospitality, but loses her after they are married, by breaking his promise to never bring up how repulsive she looked when he met her. He brings it up in anger when she gives his greyhound's puppies away. When he loses his supernatural wife, his beloved greyhound also dies. When he goes to find his wife, he finds she is suffering from an illness and can only sleep on a bed of rushes. He manages to cure her, but in the process falls out of love with her. She accepts this, because they are from different worlds and cannot live together. In some versions her last gift to him is restoring his greyhound to life.

Irish folk singer Tom Reid wrote some fitting extra verses to finish the ballad of King Henry: the lady tells the king to bring his horse, hounds and hawks' skins and feathers and then brings them all back to life before they marry.

I haven't been able to find a recording of that one but The Furrow Collective and Matt Williams both have nice renditions of this ballad. But my favourite is actually a German version by Faun called Herr Heinerich, which subtly changes the lady's ending speech to:

Many a knight I caught myself Yet none have acted right You are the first to sleep with me All the blessed night

#ballad #folk ballad #celtic folklore #scottish folklore #king henry #herr heinerich #ballads #laura babbles #in a most rambling way

50 notes · View notes

bestworstcase · 26 days ago

Note

Say, what was that about the 1/2/4 motif for Ozpin you mentioned the other day? I’ve been reading your stuff for a good minute now and I don’t think I’ve seen it come up once before that.

it's about the symbolism of the huntsmen academy teams and the vytal festival; huntsmen and huntresses are meant to "protect their fellow man" and

for this reason, trainees are grouped into teams, ensuring the continual development of communication, empathy, and teamwork; traits that are vital to any guardian of peace.

but the way the initiation process is designed, the way these teams form, creates conditions detrimental to this notional goal: you're tossing a bunch of teenagers who don't know each other into semi-random pairs to choose a single token which, unbeknownst to them, selects the other half of their team, and then you put one of them in charge and more or less tell them to figure it out.

it should come as no surprise that most professional huntsmen work alone or in pairs. there is one (1) singular example of an academic-model team-of-four functioning at the professional level—team BRIR in arrowfell. and of course we have team STRQ, who fell apart in spectacular fashion within at most five or six years of leaving beacon.

aside from the more general issue that the mechanism used to assemble these teams is just not a terribly effective way to build functional teams, the interesting part with regard to oz is that the system is designed such that the pairs are most likely choosing their token under pressure—i.e., while fending off grimm, i.e. not having any time to actually deliberate or discuss or otherwise work together to make this very important, defining choice about their futures; and indeed they're not even told that it will be defining in any sense so they're unlikely to treat it as important at all.

which is to say, the probable outcome for any given pair is that one of them will grab a token without putting much thought into it, and then they run. this is—i suspect, at least in part—a test to find out which of the pair is most decisive under pressure. whether they know it or not, every student undergoing the initiation is also auditioning for a leadership position and the structure of the initiation reflects that.

so you have this one -> two -> four pattern. the teams of four are composed of two pairs, each of which first faces a task which inherently sort of expects one to make the pivotal choice.

and then the end result is one student leading three others with no real structure beyond that. delegation and separation of duties is left wholly to the leader's discretion.

we see this same kind of symbolism at work in the vytal tournament, wherein the point of the quads bracket is for the winning team to select its two best fighters to go on to the doubles round, and then winning doubles pick the best solo combatant to compete for the championship alone by fighting a series of 1v1 duels. notionally the point of the vytal festival is to celebrate peace, cooperation, harmony—but its main event is about breaking down the team into smaller and smaller units until One Warrior emerges as the very best, standing victorious all alone.

it gives the lie to all of ozpin's talk about the importance of standing together; even his Festival About Standing Together is really about finding The Chosen One. the point of the team and of the pair is to act as a good enough foundation for The Lone Champion to reach the actual tournament. the quads aren't even properly part of the tournament itself, they're the qualifiers.

and that's why the teams fail, fundamentally. they exist in a system whose underlying purpose is really to pry them apart and extract singular heroes from teams that are good enough. whether oz consciously intended it this way or just cannot let go of trying to find the right Chosen One to replace himself is an open question, but it is top to bottom designed to find The Ones Who Are Special.

28 notes · View notes

illegiblewords · 5 months ago

Text

Almost current in Dawntrail, I make some references to plot stuff under the cut but this post isn't mainly about Dawntrail. This is an analytical rant. There are people who disagree with me that I adore/respect to bits who have done brilliant stuff from angles I wouldn't take. People shouldn’t stop doing what they’re inspired to do according to whether I like or dislike something. This post qualifies less with 'I think' and 'I believe' statements/is a little harsher because I'm venting though. Proceed at your discretion.

Features critical/darker discussions of Venat and Hermes with brief mentions of Zenos.

I really, genuinely think a lot of people are only getting pieces of what's going on in FFXIV.

The story still isn't black and white. Characters very, very often are not what they advertise themselves to be. Neither the cast nor fans are immune to misjudging.

Hermes is not as compassionate as he presents himself. There is an enormous discrepancy between what he professes and the choices he consistently makes, both with regard to other ancients and creations. I do believe he was genuinely miserable but he is basically Satan from Paradise Lost, who wonders why he alone was made unsatisfied with obedience and perfection. Who recognizes there is difference in himself compared to others but is conflicted about whether this is a defect or higher calling. Satan sees himself as inherently 'other' above all else and Hermes is just the same. The shared snake imagery isn't a coincidence either.

Everything I've seen points to Hermes being a narcissist who does not have instinctive empathy in a society where empathy is the most valuable quality a person can have. He strives to have more empathy than all other people without truly understanding what that means. It's why he projects his anger and hatred onto the wolf creation as it dies instead of offering it any kind of comfort. It's why he sends Meteion into space to suffer pain, death, and despair as a high empathy being who challenges all concepts of what it means to be alive… instead of presenting her to the Bureau of the Architect, where her very existence might instigate star-wide reform for how all other creations are handled. For his ego, he needed to be the only one with extensive knowledge of dynamis. He needed to be the only one with answers from on high regarding the nature of life. That was far more important than Meteion's wishes or well-being, and the creations he claims to love are expendable for this purpose. He frequently oscillates between seeing himself as beneath all other ancients and the sole, divinely powerful judge/jury/executioner of all living things. Like Satan from Paradise Lost he can't be grouped with those around him. He can't be just one of many ancients dealing with fears, doubts, despairs. He MUST be exceptional above all else. I'd argue the main reason he accepts the Warrior of Light at all is because we do not appear as a fellow ancient to him--he sees us as a familiar, and therefore inherently without equal authority and agency compared to him. When we are useful to his worldview he uses us and when we aren't we're disposable.

I've seen people claim that Hermes is just anxious and that's why he didn't submit Meteion. You don't opt for genocide and decree all of humanity as immoral and unworthy of mercy without even allowing your targets a voice to answer out of anxiety. You certainly don't do that while having specifically gone out of your way to avoid any steps that might have given room for more charitable judgments. Hermes opted to destroy everyone because it was what he wanted to do, but it didn't fit his self-image as a benevolent and empathetic person to do so. That's why he made a loophole via memory erasure.

Venat, further, is not a hero. She's gray at best and in all likelihood a pretty dark shade of it. Light motifs and crystal mommy themes do not change this. She not only decided, independently, that Hermes' genocide was an appropriate course without allowing anyone else room to discuss or address the issue--she actively denied everyone else knowledge of what happened or even basic information about dynamis (LET ALONE METEION'S LOCATION) so they could deal with the issue effectively. She passed judgment on the entire Convocation because of Hermes' appointment without once judging herself for withholding information on his true character. There is a reason Emet-Selch called her out for being immediately ready to see herself as a morally correct messiah of the star. He wasn't wrong to do so. And especially after Endwalker I think Venat grossly misunderstood not only what led to worlds self-destructing on a philosophical level (never mind Meteion's emotion amplification powers), I think she misread her own star and its people. Pursuit of purity and certainty was what led to the destruction of worlds. The total absence of pain is just one form that can take, but it isn't necessary for a world to be in perpetual agony to avoid that. Venat dismissed the despairs and struggles of her own fellow ancients because there was no room for them in the view she had of herself and her world. If she didn't see them they didn't exist, but even when she did see them they didn't count enough to sway her judgment. Venat had to be the most correct person and she didn't allow even as Hydaelyn the possibility of making mistakes or unwarranted cruelty to others. She is 1000% guilty of 'ancient hubris'.

Venat might be a more middling gray, in my view, depending on whether she'd been trying to shield as many people as possible from tempering with the traveler's ward only for most of the star to become tempered by Zodiark post-summoning. There are a lot of repeating phrases between Elidibus, post-Final Days ancients, and the lunar shades that I think point to mass tempering. Venat would have grounds for assuming people had homogenized views, prayers, and voices if the star was largely tempered. If they weren't, I think she becomes pretty sinister for how she deals with people's post-Final Days trauma. Her injustice toward the ancients in that case would just happen to be in a way that benefits the shards.

The Zodiark plan prevented life from going extinct. It was necessary. Zodiark's tempering and the subsequent sacrifice spiral were not deliberate I suspect, seeing as Zodirk was the first primal EVER. People have been consistently misreading the loporrit quote on this to try and argue that Zodiark didn't temper the Unsundered.

The line states that Venat used a different summoning technique to the one utilized by Ascians. Venat's technique specifically does not temper people. The Ascian method does. If Venat's technique was used to summon an entity of Zodiark's magnitude (whose power could not be resisted according to Emet-Selch) there might be a slight tug toward tempering despite the technique being much safer.

This is not saying Zodiark didn't temper anyone. It's specifically saying that despite Venat having a safe technique, Zodiark's summoning was on such a monumental scale that even Venat's technique would carry some risk.

Meanwhile, Lahabrea has been getting set up for years as someone who has been dehumanized, judged, isolated, and misunderstood. This has continued to increasing degrees through Dawntrail. It has been going on since A Realm Reborn. The sheer consistency of it is insane at this point. There is a HUGE gap between how Lahabrea emotes and what he's actually feeling. His choices reflect this and it is demonstrated firsthand in Pandaemonium.

No one seemed to think it was weird that Lahabrea was ready to commit a pseudo-suicide by killing Hephaistos. No one seemed to catch that the 'pseudo-suicide' in the lyrics to Scream referenced Lahabrea, as did the 'shadow left far behind' line. People contorted themselves into pretzels trying to say that Scream was not about him. Nevermind that Pandaemonium is the Lahabrea raid, in which all other characters were supporting cast to flesh out Lahabrea. It must be mainly about Hegemone and Agdistis! If not them, it must be mainly about Erichthonios!

The man's entire story is about being dehumanized, dismissed, invalidated, and excluded while suffering severe mental illness. It's kind of horrendous that fans are continuing to do this to him on a meta level.

Lahabrea has a long history of Abrahamic imagery. If the Warring Triad mirror the Unsundered, Sephirot as the Tree of Life maps to the Kabbalistic process of creation. The game explicitly and correctly references this in the attacks used. The lyrics to Fiend track for Lahabrea as does the association with Id issues, and there's symbolically significant overlap between muscular/multi-armed Sephirot (where multiple arms reference the boddisatva Guanyin, who uses those many arms to help those in need) to muscular/multi-armed Zodiark as Lahabrea's creation. And Zodiark being Lahabrea's creation is indicated in Akademia Anyder. People have been trying to attribute Zodiark to Hermes because Hermes hijacked him in EW and it drives me nuts.

Meanhwile, what did Pandaemonium do?

Paired the Tree of Life to The Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil. There's a ton of snake, fruit, and mouth imagery in Pandaemonium. Athena is Eve offering Lahabrea as Adam knowledge of good and evil via the soul bonding. Lahabrea has been afraid of himself as an extremely powerful ancient (which I've analyzed before, tying to Emet-Selch too), particularly given he's in a position of power. He reflects the societal idea that someone with his aetherial strength and authority cannot afford to be selfish or he risks causing immeasurable harm to others. Result is that Lahabrea is absolutely terrified of being selfish in any capacity, even on a basic healthy level. Athena meanwhile is a purely selfish being. Like I believe is the case with Hermes (and am positive is the case with Zenos)--she does not have instinctive empathy. Athena deliberately psychologically violated her husband by forcing him to acknowledge understanding selfish desire through her perspective, then compounded it by exploiting his lack of self-confidence to say he was bound to be just like her for understanding such selfishness. She's not an authority on that, but Lahabrea sees himself as personally less than Athena and is not at that point equipped to argue on his own behalf.

Anyway. Abrahamic connections, Hegemone has the snake imagery. Agdistis has the tree and the fruit. Athena is Eve. The soul bonding is the fruit of knowledge of good and evil. Hephaistos uses a ton of snake imagery too. Lahabrea is covered in symbolism both on a personal psychological level and tied to traditional symbolism via the hand of god acting upon the world, the eye of god watching the world. For savage, one arm is covered in eyes. This is his role as Lahabrea employing power for his people. The other arm, his personal desires/needs, is long and thin and malformed/not really functional. He covers his heart with a pair of wings for protection and reduces himself, weeping, to DNA because that's the only value he sees in himself. He'd rather be that than himself as a person because at least as DNA he's wanted for something. Lahabrea doesn't think anyone would ever give a shit about him on a personal level.

When Hephaistos is defeated, there's a reason Lahabrea is shaken when he states that Hephaistos' goal was never to raise himself high. That was what Athena wanted and what she told him he'd want. All Hephaistos wanted was his family back and to be loved. That was the moment Lahabrea had to introspect and realized Athena wasn't correct about his motives. Her declaring something about him didn't make it true.

Erichthonios is convinced he has a cruel and indifferent father for much of the raid. We see him twist neutral-to-kind gestures as malicious in front of us, as with Lahabrea allowing him to go to Pandaemonium as a child but insisting he know spells to protect himself. Erichthonios takes Lahabrea's insistence as believing he's not good enough instead of wanting him to be safe. We also see Erichthonios construe something that actually points to Lahabrea being depressed (giving himself no credit for completing the phoenix and advertising nothing only to be surprised by coworkers throwing him a celebration anyway) as him scorning Pandaemonium for not sharing the achievement with them. Erichthonios was taught to do this by Athena, and Athena likewise twists Lahabrea's self-image as a form of psychological abuse from the moment he approaches her in the soul bonding scene. She cites his status and accuses Lahabrea of thinking himself morally above others for descending to Pandaemonium and judging her. It never occurs to Athena that Lahabrea would try to stop her because he loves and wants to protect his son.

People are projecting their own personal beef with parents behaving poorly to assume Lahabrea is an uncaring father. He's not. He's extremely mentally ill and Erichthonios was groomed by an abusive mother while having no concept of what Lahabrea's mental illness would even look like... let alone how to deal with it.

Lahabrea explicitly thinks Erichthonios is better off with the false memory of a mother who abused him than having him present as a father because he considers himself so personally worthless. He can only see his presence as a detriment in his son's life. He is a short step from the kind of suicide people commit when they think other people would be happier and less burdened if they were dead. 'They might be sad for a while, but ultimately they'll be better off.'

I'm not even bringing out my citations right now. This isn't an Archon Thesis because I want my evidence properly assembled for that. But I recently saw someone try to frame the Convocation and Zodiark plan as uniformly awful, when the reality is doing nothing would have resulted in life going extinct. And if we're talking about zodiac signs mapping to Convocation members, there are more layers to it than 'Ascians = bad versions of the zodiac'.

Ex. The duality (two fish) and creativity associated with Pisces both apply to Lahabrea, but the emotionality does too. It isn't obvious at first but when you look it's there. Lahabrea has hidden strong emotions consistently through a variety of methods across the game. Sometimes it's reserve, sometimes it's aggression, sometimes it's hysteria. But when you look at the surrounding circumstances from his perspective, it makes perfect sense how and why he'd emote that way. It has never been safe for him to be emotionally vulnerable.

One of the earliest moments of 'villain laughter' from him we see is at Carteneau. His assistant waits quietly for him to finish. At that point Bahamut had been unleashed in yet another action that goes directly against Lahabrea's own morals, but is necessary to the Ardor. The sundered respond by invoking Lahabrea's phoenix as protection for humanity against a primal Lahabrea helped orchestrate. On some level people instinctively believe Lahabrea can and will protect them despite his failures, their own reincarnations, and thousands of years passing. It's ironic and horrible but this kind of irony has been happening to Lahabrea over and over again. If he doesn't laugh the dude's going to cry and (again) it isn't safe for him to do that.

(Also as the only Ascian to ever refer to Zodiark as 'master', Lahabrea is A) very tempered B) continuing a pattern of thought/behavior/worldbuilding where he puts his people first and himself dead last C) not talking about Athena. Lahabrea says in-game he had no earthly idea Athena was in the Heart of Sabik. I do think Heart of Sabik effected him by magnifying his desire to save his people and redeem himself in the face of survivor's guilt. It might have influenced his phrasing too. I have theories about what Lahabrea did at Praetorium but blowing it up was not 'the ultimate magic' by any means. I'm pretty sure he used it as a Themis and/or Zodiark backup drive, which Athena's presence at Anabaseios proves is possible anyway. He doesn't need to know about her to figure it out.

People have tried to say Athena is Lahabrea's god instead of Zodiark. Especially given the history of abuse and Lahabrea's own repeatedly shown priorities/actions, that take is pretty appalling imo. Completely dismisses how devoted he has always been to his people to destroy his will and identity altogether on a meta level.)

Even if we strip shit down to the most bare bones narrative form and ignore evidence--where motives and arcs are concerned 'oh Lahabrea has always been evil/uncaring/sociopathic/self-absorbed and stayed that way forever after' is bad storytelling. That would require a 'failure to change' arc as literal or spiritual death. That arc form ties to death because life requires accounting for/adapting to new experiences. If a character fails to do that (for better or worse) that character is stagnant and effectively not living. Such arcs require meticulously showing the process of rejecting experiences though. Zoraal Ja actually approaches the form a bit when we see him repeatedly taking nothing from the trials he undergoes, but his trajectory becomes 'change for the worse' after losing to his father's shade. None of the Unsundered are set up with that arc form, Lahabrea included. It wouldn't offer any insight, fit with what we know of the ancients and their values/society, or carry any emotional impact. Trying to go that route without setup is just bad storytelling and makes characters less believable. But yeah. Tl;dr I really, really wish people paid more attention and examined words vs actions vs surrounding circumstances vs motives.

#Seriously use your discretion here I didn't cushion my opinions in this one it's a rant #Deliberately no tags and I'd prefer not to have it in search either #I reference some analytical takes that frustrate me but I don't have beef with the analysts personally #mental health themes are important to me but they tend to be handled poorly in fandom imo #long post

50 notes · View notes

imminent-danger-came · 10 months ago

Note

was the peach being a metaphor in 1x06 foreshadowing...

You're damn right it was.

I've talked about it before in this post, but it's clear to me that MK only wanted the peach of immortality in 1x06 to become more like Wukong—or rather, to become more powerful/immortal like Wukong ("I just wanted to be good enough...like you" from 1x09 anyone? Tbh most s1 episodes are centered around MK wanting to be good/strong enough soooooo). The peach is a source of power/immortality, something both MK and Wukong have reached for at the expense of others:

Macaque: "No that's YOU! You're the one always running off! Looking for more power, more sources of immortality—you're the one who wouldn't quit while were were ahead!"

But, at the same time....the peach is a symbol of Wukong and Macaque's friendship:

The same way it was in 1x06 for Mei and MK:

The only reason either of them ever wanted power was to be strong enough for the people they cared about after all. The peach was a metaphor, and they "really wanted that peach"—it was a metaphor for really wanting friendship, and also really wanting power. Wanting their cake and eating it too.

I appreciated that the second time Wukong gives Macaque a peach, it's a "downgrade"—just a regular popsicle, versus a peach of immortality. Like being together is finally enough for Wukong, and it'll be enough to pull them through. (Which is something Macaque thought from the beginning: "Together there was nothing that could stop the two of them, either in the celestial realms or on earth" [2x07]).

Bonus detail:

MK in 2x07 attempted to bring his friends bags of peach chips. So. Whatever.

#thinking about s2 MK paralleling pre-jttw wukong again #It's so 1-1 it hurts #asks #lmk #lego monkie kid #lmk MK #lmk SWK #lmk Macaque #hero and warrior motif #this show is so fucking stupid. it's so good #I clearly have NOT talked about shadow play enough #Like I'm about to explode rewatching 2x07 clips #''And how those who bring light into this world inevitably bring darkness to those they hold dear''#''Like light heroes bring warmth hope and friendship. But they also give life to the darkness''#Literally throwing up hello #''Don't you see you're hurting the people who care about you the most''#''I can't risk hurting the people I care about—the ones I have left''#like okay #okay #Macaque Icarus so real #it's just the number of times MK and Wukong are associated with light. And how sometimes that is not a good thing #Like they just want to kill me idk #And even with Azure. With camel ridge/becoming the Jade Emperor (a power that looks very sun like). Bringing light to the world #But also bringing darkness to those he holds dear (the scroll + almost destroying the world)#Don't look at me do not touch me

23 notes · View notes

nightshademyn · 4 months ago

Text

Ok I'm still going insane about the wisdom saga specifically god games so I'm gonna start yapping under the cut because I have A LOT to say

First off, as I said in a previous post, Apollo's verse really does feel like the first/tutorial boss. There's nothing really personal (?) about why he doesn't want Odysseus to be set free, and I'm pretty sure that's intentional with how much this saga took from video games. Also I love his voice because it's fucking Brandon McInnis and as someone who's in the middle of her first FE Engage run w/ male Alear, it was a fucking shock lmao (did not expect to see male alear's va here)

I have no real in depth thoughts when it comes to Hephaestus's verse other than it just scratches my brain the right way. Something about Mike Rivera's voice is just sooo good and there's something so sweet about Jorge getting both his parents as vocalists in his passion project. It makes me smile every time.

OK OK HERE'S WHERE I START GOING INSANE. APHRODITE AND ARES. First off I swear you can hear the danger motif in the instrumentation WHICH MAKES SENSE because Aphrodite isn't going to be easily swayed and that poses a danger to everything Athena is trying to accomplish! It would also foreshadow that Ares is going to come in if Athena pushes Aphrodite to release him. SECOND! This is the longest segment and I wanna argue was the one that took the most effort out of Athena, and I'd like to think it's because of their history with the Trojan War. I'd like to think that Ares and Aphrodite are still holding a grudge from when Athena helped Diomedes almost kill them both during the Trojan War lmao. (Also Athena referring to Telemachus as her friend and Ares' insult towards Telemachus being what causes Athena to lock in is so sweet)

I love Hera's verse and I love how amicable she is towards Athena?? It makes sense to me that she's not quite as hostile as Aphrodite and Ares despite being the final "boss" before Zeus because to my knowledge in mythology Hera held no longs standing animosity towards Athena, probably because she's the child of Zeus and his first wife Metis and not the result of an affair. They were actually on the same side of the Trojan war. So it makes more sense to me that she's less antagonistic and more testing Athena. And I love that her verse starts with "So many heroes/So many tales" because Athena is the goddess that helps out most greek heroes. Off the top of my head outside of Odysseus there was also Perseus and Diomedes that she aided. Hera is testing Athena and asking her what makes Odysseus so special out of all the heroes Athena has mentored

AND FINALLY ZEUS!!!! THE OTHER BIT THAT MAKES ME INSANE! I wanna double back to make a comparison because in the beginning of God Games, it almost sounds to me like Athena is trying to find her rhythm, like she's choosing her words carefully to appeal to Zeus and get him to agree with her. And then once she's convinced the other gods, she returns to zeus with confidence and pride ("I've played your game and won/ Release him") DEMANDING THAT HE RELEASE ODYSSEUS! AND HOW? HOW DOES ZEUS RESPOND???? WITH THE SONG ABOUT PRIDE CRUMBLING AT HIS HANDS!! I firmly believe that's why Zeus struck Athena the second time she approached him. In his eyes, she was prideful and defiant and needed to be taught a lesson (and if the line "to make me feel shame" is any indicator, he probably did not like being called out for his propensity for affairs during Hera's verse). Also I might be going insane but the line "thunder, bring her through the wringer" IS SUNG IN THE FUCKING DANGER MOTIF SIGNALING THE DANGER ATHENA IS IN

The warrior of the mind motif returning first with a soft piano and then with a triumphant brass section (trumpets probably?) was also so good and what a way to end that song

I think that's all I had for now but I will probably come back with more to say because this musical is doing things to me

#epic the wisdom saga #epic the musical #god games #god i'm so insane about this fucking musical #you know how bad it is???#I'm sitting here yapping about god games and it's not even my favorite song of the saga!#not even my favorite!#Little wolf is my favorite of the saga!#and despite that I still have so much to say about god games!#really goes to show how amazing this musical is #even songs that aren't my favorites are still amazing and leave me with a lot to think about and tear apart #that's what I love a lot about this musical #myn yaps i guess

22 notes · View notes

great-hon-equal-to-pot-pie · 1 year ago

Text

So I've been thinking about the "monkey-mind horse-will" philosophy and the way it perfectly applies to MK and Mei all day today SO I NEED TO GET IT OUT OF MY SYSTEM.

So I feel like it's extremely common knowledge that Wukong is an allegory for the mind in jttw and this allegory is still somewhat present in lmk, especially in aspects of MK's character. The whole concept of the fluid, ever changing thoughts in his mind. The whole "I try not to think about it", "I play dumb to lighten the mood". Him saying "There's nothing MINDless about me" in the season 4 finale. THE WHOLE THING WITH SMARTIE KID/BIG BRAIN BOY? These are just some examples off the top of my head there's definitely so much I've missed. But yes, MK has this as a very noticible motif of thoughts and mind rooted in his character.

Mei representing the will- or as I like to put it - the heart is less apparent, but hear me out. The whole "she acts before she thinks". The whole "she puts her family and friends first", and the "she's a protector" vibe of her character. She puts her HEART first. The contrast between this and MK is admittedly slight but still visible.

Monkies and horses have had other connections in eastern history too, I'm sure most jttw fans are familiar with keeping monkies in horse stables to wear off illnesses (Wukong's role as Bimawen is a reference to that :D), but besides the duo can also represent great success and fortune and have ties in the Chinese zodiac. So I feel chosing Mei specifically to be MK's bestie was done on purpose.

ARGH I don't know just the concept of MK and Mei being the "Brain and Heart" IS JUST TOO GOOD. The fact it isn't the regular route of "he's smart, she's sensitive" but a lot more subtle and nuanced is just taking over my brain. I love the whole "MK and Mei will become the Hero and the Warrior" theory but imagine that the finale message is that they are equal and there is no point in overshadowing one another (I like both versions of the theory, I'm fine with both Hero MK-Warrior Mei and Hero Mei-Warrior MK) because "mind and will" are both equally important. Like? How they're both capable of greatness and need each other's support. LIKE??

AAAA I HOPE YOU UNDERSTAND WHAT I'M GOING FOR

#my longest rant yet gonna add on/edit the phrasing in the morning lol #lmk #lego monkie kid #monkie kid #lmk analysis #symbolism #lmk mk #qi xiaotian #lmk mei #mei dragon #long xiaojiao #jackfruit duo #goldendragon

105 notes · View notes

aspoonofsugar · 2 years ago

Text

Weiss and Jaune = Knight + Queen

Mirror Help me Who am I?

Weiss and Jaune are strong foils (mirrors), who can be analyzed through a specific motif.

They are both Knights (masculine):

And Queens (feminine):

This is made clear also through their respective allusions:

1 -Weiss alludes to Snowhite and plays all the different characters of the story with a specific focus on the Princess and the Prince, which is highlighted since the White Trailer:

Weiss and her inner Prince (Animus), who is corrupted and possessed by her Father

Here, Weiss fights a giant armor, which symbolizes the power her father (the patriarchy) has above her. She is fighting both for her freedom and to get back a possessed part of herself (the Arma Gigas is literally a haunted armor). If she wants to escape Jacques, she has to be her own Prince. In other words, to be crowned queen, she needs to become a knight first.

2 -Jaune alludes to Jeanne d'Arc who was both a maid and a knight. Jaune's story is about him growing into both. He needs to accept his inner maiden to become a proper knight. This is made clear in the Jaunedice's arc (this mini arc really works as Jaune's trailer). There he grows not when he gives in to toxic masculinity, but when he stands up to it:

Jaune performing his first miracle and later on being guided by his Goddess (Anima), who is none other than Pyrrha

Jaune makes progress when he nurtures his most feminine side and shows vulnerability by apologizing and asking for Pyrrha's help. A real man has no fear to show he is also feminine.

In short, both Weiss and Jaune's stories deal with the integration of their feminine and masculine parts, so that they can be full-fledged individuals.

ANIMUS AND ANIMA

Integrating the feminine with the masculine is a psychological process, which is described by Carl Jung with the archetypes of animus and anima:

The animus is the masculine part of a woman

The anima is the feminine part of a man

Each person has naturally both, but society promotes specific gender values and drives people to repress traits culturally associated with the opposite gender. So, to fully be complete a person should integrate the negated parts.

This is the case for both Weiss and Jaune, who are initially trapped in fixed gender roles:

Weiss is the rich spoilt princess. She is forced to adhere to the social role Jacques has chosen for her. She is the Schnee Heiress, which means she should always be classy, perfect and elegant:

Weiss: I'm. Not. Perfect! Not yet...

Jaune is instead the loser boy, who wants to be a knight. He doesn't really fit his gender nor social role. He is a male, but is weak, geeky and odd. He has a legacy of warriors to honor, but can't fight. So, he feels he isn't enough:

Jaune: I don't want help! I don't want to be the damsel in distress! I want to be the hero!

Basically they are both trapped in opposite ways. Weiss fits her legacy and stereotype so well people forget there is more to her. Jaune instead doesn't measure up to his ancestors nor to the classical male type, so everybody assumes he is bound to fail. This happens because Weiss and Jaune are victims in different ways of toxic masculinity:

As a girl, Weiss has to obey her father, to suppress her emotions and to be nothing, but beautiful. Think about how Jacques even weaponizes typical feminine traits Weiss has, like her talent at singing.

As a boy, Jaune has to conform to physical prowess and bravado. He has to be big, ripped and cool or else he is no-one. The idea he is not like the other boys is at the root of Jaune's insecurities.

At the same time, Weiss and Jaune are also incredibly immature and project outside the same gender roles they are trying to escape inside. Moreover, they do so specifically with each other:

Weiss: (mockingly) My hero.

This scene summarizes their whole early dynamic. On the one hand Weiss sees Jaune as the loser he is scared to be. She only sees his superficial bravado and misses who he is behind the mask. On the other hand Jaune is attracted to Weiss because he sees her as the perfect princess to his knight. So, he is drawn to the mask.

Even the reason Jaune initially falls for Weiss ties into this:

Weiss: Yeah! And we can paint our nails and try on clothes and talk about cute boys, like tall, blond, and scraggly over there!

Weiss here is mocking both Jaune and Ruby, two people she has misjudged and shows no respect for. She is being cold, superficial and rude. Still, Jaune falls for it and believes Weiss's words. He does because they describe Jaune as he wants to be perceived. So, he runs after Weiss and ignores Pyrrha.

In short, initially Weiss and Jaune can't see neither themselves nor others clearly. Luckily, this starts to change at Beacon.

ICE QUEEN AND VOMIT BOY

Sun: Ruby, Yang, Blake… Ice Queen.

Ruby: Look, I'm sorry! Vomit Boy was the first thing that came to mind.

Weiss and Jaune are given nicknames the moment they arrive at Beacon. This happens because they are both childish and self-centered, so they are called out by others. Specifically, their nicknames are light-hearted ways to criticize their perceived self-importance and the archetypes they are trying to emulate. Weiss is called an ice queen because she is acting as daddy's little princess. Jaune is instead jockingly named vomit boy because he tries too hard to look cool. They are still far away from who they want to become and their friends pick up on this. Luckily, giving them funny names is not all RWBY and JNPR do for Weiss and Jaune. Rather they help the two kids grow. In particular, Ice Queen and Vomit Boy develop in two different and complementary ways:

In volume 1 they learn to see who they are slightly better

In volume 2 they become able to see others with more clarity

Seeing One-Self

At the beginning of their stories Weiss and Jaune are running away from who they are:

I'm the loneliest of all.

Even when I told my parents I was going to Beacon, they told me not to worry if I ended up having to move back home. How depressing is that?

Both have big families, but feel lonely and misunderstood. So, they hope they can have a fresh start at Beacon, but immediately meet unforeseen circumstances:

By this point Weiss and Jaune are pursuing a superficial dream of heroes and monsters. They figure their most perfected selves beside the "right" patner.

On the one hand Weiss wants Pyrrha to be the "knight" to her "princess":

Weiss: This will be perfect! The smartest girl in class combined with the strongest girl in class! Together we will be unstoppable!

She wants someone strong (body) that complements her intelligence (mind). She thinks that in this way she can't fail.

On the other hand Jaune wants Weiss to be the "princess" to his "knight":

Jaune: Don't worry! No need to be embarrassed! So, been hearing rumors about teams! I was thinking you and me would make a good one! What do you say?

He wants someone who is beautiful and looks frail, so he can protect her. He thinks in this way he can appear strong.

Both are wrong obviously. This is why they end up with respectively Ruby and Pyrrha as partners.

Weiss needs to realize what complements mind is not body, but heart. This is why she is paired with Ruby, who lacks physical strength, but has more than enough heart to guide Weiss. Throughout the initiation, Weiss herself has to act as a Knight by saving Ruby from the Nevermore. And later on, she needs to follow Ruby's plan (so Ruby's mind) to take down the Grimm and pass the trial.

Jaune needs to realize a real knight is not physically strong, but is wise (mind) and brave (heart). This is why he ends up with Pyrrha, who is both and challenges him in two different ways. She doesn't fit feminine stereotypes and sees Jaune's value not in his superficial traits, but rather in his willingness to help. Throughout the initiation, Jaune shows this by staying behind to lead others into kiling the Grimm.

So, Ruby and Pyrrha are the ones, who can help Weiss and Jaune grow the most. However, the 2 kids struggle to accept it and enter into a conflict with their respective partners in The Bagde and The Burden and Jaunedice. These 2 mini-arcs are interesting because they do not really add anything to the main plot. Rather, they are episodes which focus on Weiss and Jaune respectively. Once again our wannabe queen and wannabe knight act as perfect foils to each other.

On the one hand Weiss is powerful enough to kill Grimms on her own, but wants to be the Queen giving orders. On the other hand Jaune has gained the title of leader, but wants to be the competent Knight slaining monsters.

In short, they want what the other has and miss what they already are. Why is that so? Because deep down they dislike themselves and can't see they have the seeds for greatness within. They don't need to look outside, but should nurture the inside.

Luckily, they are helped by 2 mentor figures:

Port: So instead of fretting about what you don't have, savor what you do. Hone your skills, perfect every technique, and be not the best leader, but the best person you can be.

Ruby: Because it's not just about you anymore. You've got a team now, Jaune. We both do! And if we fail, then we'll just be bringing them down with us. We have to put our teammates first, and ourselves second. Your team deserves a great leader, Jaune. And I think that can be you.

Port invites Weiss to grow as a person and Ruby reminds Jaune of his duties as a leader. So, Weiss and Jaune step up for the sake of their partners:

Weiss: Ruby, I think you have what it takes to be a good leader. Just know that I am going to be the best teammate you'll ever have!

Jaune: Don't ever mess with my team - my friends - ever again. Got it?

Weiss encourages Ruby to be a good leader and promises her she will be the best teammate ever. She even aknowledges she has always loved bunked beds and makes a small step in integrating with her inner child. Something necessary if she wants to blossom into an adult.

Jaune fights Cardin for Pyrrha's sake and decides to dedicate himself to his role of leader. At the same time, he accepts Pyrrha's help, so he shows vulnerability. In other words, he starts integrating with his feminine side. Something needed to become more mature.

So, by the end of their first semester at Beacon both Weiss and Jaune have come to understand themselves and their roles a little bit better. Still, they have yet a long way to go when it comes to the way they aknowledge others.

What better chance than a dance to work on it?

Seeing Others

When it comes to the dance, Weiss and Jaune find themselves in the same situation of the initiation ceremony. They are locked into "triangles":

Jaune wants to go to the dance with Weiss, who wants to go with Neptune

Pyrrha wants to go to the dance with Jaune, who wants to go with Weiss

They pursue the wrong partner and ignore another person's feelings. In this way they do to another what they lament it is done to them:

Weiss: All my life, boys have only cared about the perks of my last name.

Jaune: It's Weiss… I'm completely head over heels for her, and she won't even give me a chance. She's cold, but she's also incredible. She's smart, and graceful, and talented-- I mean have you heard her sing? I just wish she take me seriously, y'know?

On the one hand Weiss wants to be seen for who she is, not her name. And yet, she refuses to look earnestly at Jaune and doesn't even recognize his feelings as genuine (recognizing someone's feelings doesn't mean to reciprocate them by the way). On the other hand Jaune wants to be taken seriously, but the moment Pyrrha tries to open up to him, he reduces her feelings to a joke:

Jaune: Oh please, if you don't get a date to the dance, I'll wear a dress.

At the same time, both approach love superficially. Jaune has started to really like Weiss as a person, but he is still far from truly seeing the girl in all her complexity. Weiss is instead failing to recognize Jaune's good qualities and is attracted to Neptune's try hard persona:

Neptune: Haven. And I don't believe I've caught your name, snow angel.

The narrative makes it very clear Neptune is just a shallower, but better looking version of Jaune. He is a geek (like Jaune), but calls himself an intellectual. He flirts with every girl that breathes, waaaay more than Jaune does initially. And yet, he looks cooler, so Weiss is attracted by him.

This "double triangle" is solved positively in 2 different ways:

Weiss and Jaune start to display respectively more masculine and feminine traits

Weiss and Jaune learn to see others a little bit better

Weiss plays the part of the knight and invites Neptune to the dance:

Weiss: I know this is a little unorthodox, but… I wanted to ask you something. Would you… like to accompany me to the dance tomorrow?

Jaune plays the part of the maiden and wears a dress to accept Pyrrha's late invite:

Pyrrha: I had no idea you were a dancer. Jaune: Yeah, well, these things tend to happen when you grow up with seven sisters.

On a deeper level, Jaune confronts both Pyrrha (the ideal self he must aim to be) and Neptune (the past self he has outgrown).

Pyrrha: I've been blessed with incredible talents and opportunities. I'm constantly surrounded by love and praise, but when you're placed on a pedestal like that for so long, you become separated from the people that put you there in the first place. Everyone assumes I'm too good for them. That I'm on a level they simply can't attain. It's become impossible to form any sort of meaningful relationship with people. That's what I like about you. When we met, you didn't even know my name. You treated me just like anyone else. And thanks to you, I've made friendships that will last a lifetime. I guess, you're the kind of guy I wish I was here with. Someone who just saw me for me.

He realizes he has hurt Pyrrha's feelings and has failed to see her the whole time. At the same time, he calls Neptune out on how he has treated Weiss's feelings:

Jaune: Do you even care about the girls you're hitting on? How they feel about you?

And finally, thanks to his ideal self (Pyrrha), he is able to give his past self (Neptune) a good advice:

Jaune: Then just go talk to her. No pickup lines, no suave moves, just be yourself. I've heard that's the way to go.

In this way, Jaune shows he has grown more mature and crowns his evening by wearing a beautiful dress and proving he is a great dancer (differently from Neptune).

Weiss grows too. She accepts Neptune's apology and thanks to him, she is able to finally see Jaune for who he is:

Weiss: You said you were embarrassed at first. What made you come talk to me? Neptune: You're looking at him. You got some good friends looking out for ya.

She might not reciprocate Jaune's feelings, but Jaune is still her friend and cares about her as a person, not as a trophy. This moment marks an improvement of Weiss's overall dynamic with Jaune and she starts to see him as a close one, even praising him occasionally:

Weiss: Well, he's certainly improved.

This is a top off for Weiss's growth as a less judgemental person. This process starts with Blake and her prejudice against Faunus and goes on with Jaune and her misjudgement of him.

All in all, Weiss and Jaune's months at Beacon are key for the kids' early development:

Weiss grows through Ruby and Blake

Jaune grows through Pyrrha and his team

They keep walking parallel paths and slowly start to aknowledge each other more. Weiss starts to see Jaune not as a loser, but as a person who is trying hard. Jaune start to see Weiss not as a damsel, but as a talented individual with wishes of her own. Similarly, their relationship with their inner selves improves, as well.

By the time of the Vytal Festival, both Weiss and Jaune are making small steps toward who they want to become.

The Vytal Festival: Unsure Knight and Clueless Maiden

Weiss and Jaune's tournament fights display their better qualities. On the one hand Weiss sacrifices herself for Yang. On the other hand Jaune is able to lead his team well. They are both more selfless with a better understanding of their roles in their teams.

This growth is marked by important moments outside the arena.

Weiss meets Winter, who inspires her to branch out a little. This is the catalyst for Weiss's transformation into a knight:

Jaune notices Pyrrha is off and tries to step into an adviser position. Basically, he tries to do what Pyrrha has done for him. He tries to guide her by symbolically playing a more supportive role. Moreover, he tries to help Pyrrha making sense of maidenhood:

Jaune: I guess… I'm just trying to say that… you've always been there for me… even when I didn't deserve it. And I can tell there's something on your mind, so… I don't know. How can I help?

Obviously, they are both still immature. Weiss is dependent on her father and can barely summon a tiny sword. Jaune is ignorant and isn't able to give Pyrrha the right advice. Still, they both try, even if they meet an unforeseen crisis. The Fall of Beacon.

Weiss manages to step in to protect Velvet. She acts as a real Knight in Shining Armor:

Jaune does his best to stand beside Pyrrha, even in her darkest moment:

Jaune: She's right. Whoever was on that microphone… they're the ones that did this. And we have to make sure they don't take anyone else.

Despite this, they both fail in the end. Weiss can't save Beacon and loses her new found home and family. Jaune can't save Pyrrha and loses the girl he loves. So, after so much development and growth Weiss and Jaune wake up to discover it still isn't enough. So, the finale pushes them back in the roles they have tried to escape so desperately.

Weiss is brought back under her father's thumb. Jaune is shoved into a locker, forced to fly away like a loser. Weiss is once again daddy's little princess, while Jaune is once again a wannabe knight, who couldn't save the girl.

SNOWHITE AND JEANNE

Ren: Well that embarrassment - that desire to go back and tell yourself not to be so stupid - that just proves you're not the same person you used to be. You're smarter, you're kinder, you're stronger, and you're not done growing yet. None of us are.

The Mistral arc marks a metaphorical growth spurt for both Weiss and Jaune. This development manifests in the volume 5 climax, where their stories intersect:

This scene is a culmination of their respective developments and ties with both their allusions:

Snowhite dies, but is resurrected by the Prince

Jeanne D'Arc performs a mircacle and brings back a person from the death

So, it is clearly very important symbolically, but what does it mean for Weiss and Jaune's characters, specifically?

1- Weiss and Jaune overcome two fake Maidens

Vernal and Cinder are the two fake Maidens of the Mistral arc, as the opening of volume 5 suggests:

Vernal is set up as the Spring Maiden and Cinder is set up as Raven's biggest foe. And yet, neither of them lives up to expectations. On the one hand Vernal is just a red herring, while Cinder isn't Raven's true opponent, but Yang is.

At the same time, Vernal and Cinder are Weiss and Jaune's opponents during the Battle of Haven. Interestingly, they both challenge the kids about their true identities. Who are they really?

Vernal: Let's see what the Schnee name really means.

Cinder: Who are you again?

Vernal mocks Weiss by stating she is nothing outside her name and Cinder sneers at Jaune by telling him he is a nobody. These are Weiss and Jaune's biggest fears. Weiss is scared her only value is her Schnee name, whereas Jaune is terrified of being a loser. In short, both Vernal and Cinder attack Weiss and Jaune's egos and leave them shattered:

Vernal physically breaks Weiss's aura, while Cinder psychologically destroys Jaune by targeting Weiss, just like she did with Pyrrha. Vernal and Cinder's objective is really to reduce Weiss and Jaune to nobodies. And yet, they fail. That is because the self is not found in physical strength or power, but rather comes from inside:

Yang: You might be powerful, but that doesn't make you strong.

In this battle Vernal and Cinder really symbolize Weiss and Jaune's illusory sense of selves. Their ugly personas. This is why they are both fake. Fake maidens masked with strength and confidence. And yet, they are deep down made of lies.

Vernal derides Weiss because of her dependency on the Schnee Family. And yet, Vernal herself has dedicated her whole existence to the Branwen Tribe and even changed her name for Raven's sake. In other words, she has reduced herself to her Spring Maiden persona. She is the one, who is nothing more than a name. And a false one, to boot.

Cinder laughts at Jaune's wannabe hero performance, but a lucky strike by her opponent is enough to derail her. An inexperienced fighter like Jaune grazing her breaks Cinder's whole facade and shows the ugly psychological wounds she hides behind a mask.

This is why Vernal and Cinder defeat Weiss and Jaune, but ultimately fail and actually destroy each other. Vernal dies by Cinder's hand, despite how strong and smart she is. Cinder is unmasked by Raven and falls because of Vernal's final desperate attack, which ensures Cinder's defeat.

Weiss and Jaune instead are reborn thanks to each other. Weiss is physically saved by Jaune, whereas Jaune starts to psychologically heal through helping Weiss. Weiss unlocks a new summon, while Jaune discovers his semblance. In the end, Weiss and Jaune don't need to play by Vernal and Cinder's rules.

Weiss's strength doesn't lie in her individual skill, but in the relationships she has built with others. She doesn't have to survive on her own because she is full of loved ones ready to help her shine. And she can help them too.

Jaune is heroic not because he is a lonely warrior slaying villains, but because he is a good friend always ready to help. His value lies in his wish to protect others. Moreover, he can rely on them when he needs.

Weiss and Jaune's real selves are in their hearts, which are growing stronger. That is why they lose the physical fight, but win the spiritual one. They ultimately succeed, as Weiss's Queen Lancer is key to saving Haven and Jaune's Aura Amp is fundamental in saving Weiss. Weiss protects a Kingdom, while Jaune protects a girl.

2- Weiss and Jaune integrate with their animus/anima

Weiss and Jaune embrace their true selves by reconciling their masculine and feminine parts. Once again this process is conveyed through their allusions.

Our Snowhite dies and is reborn twice. The first time, Jacques (the Evil Queen) kills her psychologically by taking away her Heiress title and imprisoning her in her room (the glass coffin). Weiss is able to escape by developing her masculine side (the Knight).

She successfully draws energy from her animus (her inner Prince) and uses this new found resourcefulness to escape. She leaves behind her passiveness (feminine) and grows more active (masculine). This is why her summon symbolically breaks the window and immediately after Weiss makes the choice to leave.

The second time, Cinder (another Evil Queen) kills her physically, but Jaune (the Prince) saves her. As a result, Weiss wakes up and is crowned Queen.

Becoming Queen in fairy tales means you have reached self-actualization. So, Weiss has become her true self, which is a combination of feminine (queen) and masculine (lancer). The Queen Lancer then symbolizes Weiss reconciling with her anima (feminine part) by making it freer, more genuine and stronger through her animus (masculine part).

Our Jeanne performs a miracle and has a vision. He brings Weiss back from the death in Haven. By doing so he physically plays the part of the Knight in Shining Armor. Still, he succeeds by integrating his animus with his anima. As a matter of fact he lets go of fighting and killing (masculine) and takes up healing (feminine):

Later on, he needs spiritual guidance and finds it in his anima (Pyrrha). So, he has a symbolic "vision" of her in front of her statue:

Obviously, the woman is probably Pyrrha's mother, but it doesn't matter. The whole scene is framed up as aetherial and ambiguous because thematically Pyrrha's soul points Jaune toward the right path. So, Jaune is guided by his feminine side.

Weiss and Jaune's journey in Mistral leads them to face their fears and let go of their personas. By doing so, they succeed at integrating their animus and anima. The end result is that they grow up.

Weiss blooms into a Queen:

Weiss's royal dress is blue (melted ice) and has snowhite-like puff sleeves.

Jaune becomes a Knight:

Jaune's outfit keeps his red details and adds more gold to it.

Upon their arrival in Atlas, they are not Ice Queen and Vomit Boy anymore, but genuine articles.

QUEEN AND KNIGHT

Right now I’m just a bit surprised Cuz I feel just fine And I might just touch the sky

The sun is shining in the sky The birds are smiling so am i I’m kicking ass in every way Think this change is here to stay It’s feeling like a brand new day

In Atlas, our Queen and Knight live their best lives.

Weiss arrests her father and reconnects with her estranged family. She becomes the Queen of the Schnee family. Jaune instead supports everyone, meets the admiration of civilians and is in generally successful. He becomes a perfect Knight in Shining Armor.

Even when the situation gets dire they both maintain a mature attitude. They are not touched by the Divide and their major conflict lies rather with a family member (sibling):

Winter: You're not leaving me. I'm giving you a head start.

Ren: You cheated your way into Beacon!

Winter and Ren oppose Weiss and Jaune out of repression and frustration. And yet, Weiss and Jaune's reaction is of empathy and understandment:

Weiss: Don’t worry, they’re sisters. Sometimes sisters just have very different ideas about what’s right.

Jaune: We’re all under a lot of stress right now. I used to push people away too.

They never doubt their loved ones and when Winter and Ren come around there is no need for apologies. Weiss and Jaune simply welcome them back with warmth.

In short, our Queen and Knight are among the characters who have grown the most, so they often come up with solutions. For example, Jaune offers a way to overcome the Divide from a practical point of view:

Jaune: Okay. Okay… Then let’s go for both. Get Amity up and running and evacuate Mantle.

Weiss is instead the one to state the theme outloud before the climax:

Weiss: Trust is a risk

This development is precisely why they both get to shine in the final battle.

On the one hand Weiss holds it together while her team is in disarray after Yang's fall. Ruby is traumatized and caught up in a fight with Neo, while Blake temporally loses it. Weiss keeps on facing Cinder alone and does her best to protect Penny and the relic.

On the other hand Jaune keeps a level-head and manages to evacuate the civilians only to join the fray at the very end. He reads the situation correctly and kills Penny when there is no other choice.

Weiss and Jaune have grown into who they want to be in the beginning. This is why they are the last fighters standing. And yet, despite all their training and maturation, they still fail. They face an Evil Queen (Cinder) and are defeated when they are at their strongest. Weiss is a true Queen fighting for her home and Jaune is a true Knight fighting for the people. And yet, they are crushed and fall. Just like at Beacon.

Once again, Weiss fails to protect a Kingdom:

Once again, Jaune fails to protect a Maiden:

At the same time, they believe the other can somehow succeed, even if they don't:

Weiss: Maybe… Jaune and Winter were able to get them out, despite… everything… despite us…

Jaune: I don’t know where the others are, but… Weiss will give us time!

Weiss hopes Jaune and Winter (aka her ideal) save the relics. Jaune hopes Weiss can buy him and Penny time, like Pyrrha (aka his ideal).

In short, Weiss and Jaune grow into their ideal selves, but still lose. Not only that, but they keep on projecting their ideals on others. And yet, these others also fail. So, what to do? The only choice is to let go of unreachable perfect paragons.

FALLEN QUEEN AND RUSTED KNIGHT

Weiss: I am a citizen of a fallen Kingdom and an heir to nothing. I will not be defined by my name because I will be the one to define it. I am Weiss Schnee, and I am a Huntress!

NeoCat: You were never the brave knight either! Just more fairytale nonsense!

Weiss and Jaune's journey in the Ever After is about letting go of their Queen and Knight idealized self-images. In this way they can truly accept who they are. This is difficult at first because they are full of self-hate and regret:

Weiss: But it wasn't enough! We hatched a crazy plan that put a whole kingdom at risk, and we don't even know if we saved the Relics...

Jaune: I’m trying so hard to save them… I stopped them from becoming what they needed to be. I was being selfish because I… I wanted the rush of rescuing someone and I got that here.

Still, they both work through it in 2 ways.

They face their traumas again:

Weiss: I am so tired of leaving places in ashes…

Jaune: On that bridge… I was the only one that could do it! I was the ONLY ONE! And I… And now I have to live with that forever… In here or back home…

They change their dynamic with Ruby, who they put on a pedestal.

Specifically, Ruby becomes a paragon for both Weiss and Jaune during the Mistral arc. There, Weiss learns to be emotionally vulnerable with her partner. Jaune instead grows to admire Ruby's optimism and hopeful self.

So, after the fall of Atlas, both Weiss and Jaune go back to Ruby. Weiss lets out all her troubles, while Jaune dives after Crescent Rose and proudly gives it back.

However, Ruby is in no condition to play Weiss and Jaune's hero. This shows and it unnerves them, who grow progressively more irritated with Little Red:

Weiss: Hurry! People are counting on us!

Jaune: I know you may not care about protecting this village, but you could at least help your friends when they’re in danger.

Until Ruby herself snaps at the both of them. Interestingly, it is Weiss's demand that Ruby consoles Jaune, which sets her off. Moreover, throughout her monologue, Ruby calls Weiss out on her dependency on her:

Ruby: What about me? “No time”, right? “Gotta get home!” “Gotta help Jaune!” Gotta find someone who isn’t just going to screw everything up!

And she lashes out against Jaune's hero complex:

Ruby: I’m sorry, is this a bad time? Are we supposed to be mourning Jaune’s make-believe friends?!

She pintpoints both their flaws and then runs away. It is Ruby's outburst, though, which wakes up Weiss and Jaune.

Weiss finally realizes Ruby's pain and empathizes with her. Her words clearly have an impact on Jaune too:

Weiss: Ruby has always been the one to get us through the hard times. We say things like “We believe in you”, “We can count on you”. I know we mean well, but…

They both let go of their idealization of Ruby, which in turns helps them with their own struggles:

Weiss: I think you’re asking too much of yourself. We’ve been telling ourselves that failing means we’re no good. But I can guarantee even the best Huntsmen in history… they’ve all lost. But they were still incredibly brave… and good.

In front of a genial ruby, Weiss and Jaune manage to move forward through each other.

Jaune is spiritually guided and shown empathy by Weiss. Weiss instead starts healing psychologically by helping Jaune. In a sense, this is a parallel and an inversion of their shared moment in volume 5. There Jaune finds himself strong enough to cure Weiss. Here Weiss finds herself wise enough to teach Jaune. Both are in a self-hate spiral, but then realize they are better than they think by saving the other. At the same time, this moment also calls back Jaune's "vision" in Lost. There Jaune is shown the way by a Pyrrha stand-in. Here Weiss steps into the role of spiritual adviser.

After spending the whole volume looking for someone to guide her, Weiss discovers she can be the guide. After spending the whole volume wanting to be the hero, Jaune realizes he is the one that needed help the whole time.

They both learn the main theme of the volume:

Jaune: Maybe that Cat was right… Maybe I just needed to accept it. It’s not a place you go.

They reach acceptance of who they are. Both their good traits and their negative traits. They accept they did their best, but also that they lost. And once they do, they become able to better accept others, as well:

Jaune: I think I get it. This is how we got here, or… why the Tree brought us here. Acceptance.

Weiss: We've done everything we can. Now it's up to Ruby. Whatever happens next… we have to welcome that.

Not only do they let go of their idealized self-images, but of Ruby's too. This is why they are ready to welcome her, no matter what. Strengths and limits, alike.

Thanks to their inner development, they both get to make another step into self-actualization. This growth is shown symbolically in the finale . Weiss is finally able to summon a full Nevermore, which combines all her previous glyphs (so it is symbolic of the self). Jaune accepts Alyx's hand and goes back to his real self through her (he goes from iron to mercury). These are glimpses of who Weiss and Jaune are going to finally become.

SOPHIA AND HERMES

Curious Cat: Looking at you, wise huntress.

Alyx: Maybe it’s time for a change, to be the kind of man you always wanted to be.

So, who are Weiss and Jaune going to be at the end of their journey? It is still too soon to say, but I would not be surprised if they were to become Sophia and Hermes to each other.

Who are Hermes and Sophia? They are the embodyments of a perfected animus and a perfected anima. In short, by the end of their psychological development, a woman should integrate with Hermes and a man should integrate with Sophia. Personally I think (wish) Weiss is stepping in the role of Sophia for Jaune, while Jaune is stepping in the role of Hermes for Weiss. Volume 9 might have given symbolic hints of this.

Weiss is directly associated with wisdom, which is what Sophia means.

Jaune goes from iron to mercury through Alyx and Mercury is just another way to call Hermes. Moreover, one of the symbols of Hermes in alchemy is a stag and well... Juniper resembles one.

Now, this final integration can be romantic (my preference) or platonic/individualistic (if they chicken out). What is sure is that it's going to happen, one way or another. It is just the cherry on top on a animus/anima story.

Snowhite and the Animus

Snowhite is the story of a child growing up. The first step in self-actualization is to stop identifying with the Mother, so the mirror image changes. This transformation generates an inner conflict. On the one hand there is the side who wants to grow up (Snowhite), on the other hand there is the side who doesn't wanna change (the Evil Queen). It is only by conquering the Evil Queen (the shadow), that Snowhite can truly become herself.

And how does she do it? She succeeds through an integration with her animus (masculine side):

The King is absent and doesn't help Snowhite

The Hunter appears and helps Snowhite

The Dwarves give Snowhite a home

The Prince saves Snowhite

As you can see, Snowhite's story is full of male characters and each new one is more helpful than the one before. This is because all these characters are representations of Snowhite's interiority and of her strenghtening animus. It is initially possessed, but then it progressively blooms until it saves the protagonist.

Now, this is just Weiss's story in a nutshell:

Willow is absent and Weiss's animus is possessed (The Arma Gigas she fights in the White Trailer)

Winter helps her and inspires Weiss to pursue her career as a Huntress (After her visit Weiss summons a part of her Knight)

Team RWBY welcomes Weiss and become her adoptive home and family (Weiss becomes herself through them)

Only the Prince is missing and it will probably be Jaune (he already is in volume 5). Wait, aren't all these characters women? Yes, they are because Weiss's fairy tale is all genderbent except her. So, why should Weiss's Prince be Jaune? Because in his case, he is the genderbent one :P

Jaune can be Weiss's Prince (again platonically or romantically) only if he fully blooms into Jeanne first. He can't be a real Knight, if he doesn't become a Maiden.

The Four Stages of Anima

Jaune's journey through the anima is well conveyed through 4 stages, which stand for archetypical female figures. Each one represents a different level of maturity:

Eve is the mother - The boy has no romantic attachment and sees the woman as a source of protection and nourishment

Helen is the seductress - The boy feels romantic attraction and sees the woman as a talented individual, but pays no attention to her spiritual or inner life

Mary is the virgin - The boy fells mature love and sees the woman as a paragon of virtue, but pays no attention to her negative traits

Sophia is wisdom - The boy is ready for a relationship with a woman as an equal partner and sees the feminine as a source of wisdom with no need to objectify the woman anymore

This scale describes Jaune's relationship with the feminine perfectly:

Eve is Pyrrha - she nurtures and protects him as a mentor and Jaune feels initially no attraction to her

Weiss is Helen - she is Jaune's first crush and he grows enough to see her as a talented person, but can't understand her inner world

Mary is Pyrrha - she becomes Jaune's guide and the embodyment of heroism and virtue

Only Sophia is missing and I think she will be Weiss. In general, though, these phases describe Jaune's general approach to women and how it changes. He arrives at Beacon looking for a girlfriend because that is what a man should do, which in itself is a very childish behavior. Then he grows to see the girls around him as powerful individuals, but he can't go behind the surface. This is true for Weiss, but also for Pyrrha, whose struggles he ignores. After her death, Pyrrha becomes an ideal, but she isn't the only one. For example, Jaune believes Weiss and Ruby can save Pyrrha from Cinder and later on he keeps idealizing them. In volume 9, he learns to let go of his idealization and to see others as their own people. He is stepping into Sophia (wisdom).

MIRROR MIRROR

I looked in the mirror And I gotta say It’s been a long long time Since I felt this way

Weiss and Jaune go through perfect mirror journeys, which are about recognizing others to see their own selves and vice versa. This is why Weiss's mirror mirror motif works so well for them.

They don't know who they are (mirror tell me who am I?)

They realize they dislike their current selves (mirror tell me who is the loneliest of all? I am the loneliest of all)

They work to change (mirror I'll tell you something, I might change it all)

They overcome their narcisism rooted in self-loathing (I'm shattering the mirror that keps me split in pieces)

Now that they can see who they are better, the next step is to probably see others more clearly. This is the secondary theme of the volume, after all: empathy.

Ruby breaks Summer's pedestal and as a result she can see herself better. In turn, this makes her able to look at others in a new light:

Weiss and Jaune do the same. They break Ruby's pedestal and show empathy and forgiveness for themselves and her. Still, this is framed as just the beginning. The theme of empathy is probably gonna be explored in later volumes. This is true for both Ruby's arc and Weiss and Jaune's stories.

Wouldn't it be wonderful if the next mirror mirror song is a conversation not with the mirror, but with another person? A person that is a mirror, but not because stuck inside it like Weiss in the beginning. A person, who is a mirror because every person can be a mirror of another if looked at with empathy. And this is what beating the mirror really means. Not to look at ourselves through it, but to look at ourselves through others. And to accept them. And to accept us.

#rwby #white knight #weiss schnee #jaune arc #rwby meta #my meta #rwby theory #sorry for this post's lenght but i love their foiling very very much and wanted to explore it fully

230 notes · View notes