#helen & desire

[five-and-dimes]

"This face will launch a thousand ships."

My piece for @endlesshistoriesfest! I chose to illustrate Desire with Helen of Troy- the bulk of the piece is based on the painting "Helen of Troy" by Evelyn De Morgan, but Helen's face is based on Elizabeth Taylor's portrayal in "Dr. Faustus". I had a lot of fun working on this, and tbh had about a million ideas I wanted to do for this event but ran out of time for haha, so I do want to eventually do more pieces inspired by this event!

As always the line art is better 😅

[thermodynamic-comedian]

i like to think that helen really was just clueless about what friendship was. i mean, it makes sense. imagine you're a thing that only exists to confuse, scare, and deceive, and one day you become someone who wants to be around people and have friends. but you have no further context for what either of those concepts imply. of course you'd interpret it as a game of sorts, a new way to lie, is there a difference between "friend" and "victim"? you don't know. how could you know? you have desires that aren't your own, and you have to act on them to get rid of that horrible feeling you've never quite felt before, but you don't know what actually gets rid of that feeling. you have to be around people now. that doesn't mean you're going to stop being what you are.

[red-moon-at-night]

The Heart wants what it wants.

[dilutedh2so4]

When are we going to accept Helen's agency is key

[everysongineverykey]

read a screen rant article that argued that future knives out movies should feature recurring characters to "flesh out blanc's character" and "make him a more interesting lead" and that "all detectives need a team"........ what if i killed you lol

[lasaraleen]

there’s not necessarily an age limit to Narnia, besties, it’s about how you can serve Narnia and how Narnia can serve you within your own story.

[fauvester]

will fully admit that I never finished SVSSS book 4 until an hour long layover.. I have to say with my full chest: LQG you gay-ace disaster

[the-spiralings]

i Have Drawn The Other One!

[ibrithir-was-here]

Been some more talk on Discord about the Helen as Desire's child idea created by @the-librarians-wife , and the Trojan War just got a lot more interesting and Meta

Picture a grieving Orpheus roaming the Ancient Mythological Greek landscape, bumping one by one into his fellow Endless Cousins: Cassandra, daughter of Destiny, left to be fostered by King Priam and Queen Hecuba after the "loss" of their son Paris. He sees the touch of Destiny in her, and the same oracular ability he possess, but doomed that her warnings to never be believed, as people only hesr what they want to hear...

He travels on, and meets young Paris in his idyllic childhood as a shepard, never dreaming that he is both a Prince of Troy and a child of Destruction, who Orpheus can see will not be able to help but bring his birthright down upon those around him...

And finally Helen, who even at the tender age of seven has inspired such Desire that she has suffered abduction under the hands of Theseus, and Orpheus can see that the unearthly beauty she has been born with, cursed with,will inspire yet more tradgedy, the launching of a thousand ships, and a thousand plus deaths.

And when the eyes of the children of Desire and Destruction meet, when their hearts perceive "here is one who is like me, here is one who feels the same strangeness within me that none else can understand..."

Well, what else could follow from the union of such forces as Desire and Destruction? Such heady kindeling for tragedy...

And Orpheus wanders on, knowing he cannot be more then a witness to his cousins fates...but his aunts Despair, Delirium and Death will be busy...

[basicallyanotherwitchesthing]

Frances Lengel (aka Alexander Trocchi) - Desire and Helen - publisher uncertain - circa 1967

[littlesparklight]

Desiring Helen / Helen as the lover

The ideas of women and sex - and women's relationship to sex, wasn't a sexless creature who suffered man's attention upon her. It was (just as unfortunately but in a different way) that of basically a sex monster, driven by desire. But she wasn't supposed to let this rule her (now, neither were men, but of course the pressures and expectations are somewhat different between them). Wasn't supposed to let it show - a "good" woman didn't seek it out, didn't express want of it, married or not. And, of course, she wasn't supposed to sleep with anyone but her husband, before or after she married.

A lot of our (especially early, but hardly exclusively) sources on Helen and her desires, or lack thereof, and what she wanted or not, lean into that she did want Paris. That she left of her own free will, and thus is the realization of all the most terrible stereotypes of women and their desire for sex. Of course, Aphrodite is involved, but in what way, and how this was portrayed - we don't know. The Kypria would be the oldest source that actually showed "on screen" how it all went down, but there are only fragments, and none of them that show us this part. All we have is Proclus' summary which uses language not of force, or any mention of unwillingness.

There's also often the quirk of a lot of the sources to say "she was taken" but at the same time also say "she left". Euripides' Iphigenia in Aulis is a good example, which uses both of these languages, but also says "in mutual desire" when it comes to what Paris and Helen did.

The Iliad uses ambiguous to neutral language in narrative, and Helen herself says several times she "left" and "followed". Of course, like Blondell in her book Helen of Troy points out, one can be coerced into leaving "willingly", but if she was taken entirely against her will both the narrative and Helen could be using language that spells that out. The active words matter, I'd say.

In Helen and Aphrodite's confrontation, you get Aphrodite describing Paris to Helen - he's the (sexual and sex) object here, not Helen herself, and Helen's reaction is her heart being "incited" [to some sort of re/action]. Early ancient commentators often used varying levels of allegory quite often on the Iliad, which meant that on the "harshest" end of it, there is only Helen fighting with herself and her own desires, and losing. On the milder, there is both Helen and Aphrodite, but Aphrodite is still also a reflection of Helen's desires - and again she loses. Both to the actual goddess and her threats, and to herself.

Nancy Worman in Body as Argument points out that one of Helen's protests about going to Paris in that scene isn't a lack of desire for him or a denial of his attractiveness, but a concern of public shame for going. What Helen chooses to say then says as much as what she doesn't say. In the Iliad, Helen then wants Paris as much as she also is unhappy with him/his actions - my own interpretation given what she says to Hektor is that her anger is very much aligned with Hektor's. It's not so much about what Paris did in getting her to Troy (willing or unwilling), but that he fails to act as he ought, with her in Troy and an army on Troy's shores.

Sappho in fr. 16 has Helen as the subject, the actor. Her desire [for Paris] is what matters, so much so that Paris himself isn't named and is, quite literally, the not-present sex object of Helen's desire that she leaves Sparta for.

When Helen is thus blamed, she isn't being blamed for having been kidnapped and raped; she's being blamed in her capacity as an acting subject who had the agency to do something blameworthy. (Worth pointing out is that whether or not Helen is blamed, Paris always is when he is mentioned. His responsibility/guilt in what he/they did is unquestionable and any blame on Helen is basically always attached with an invisible "in addition to" blame of Paris.)

I think reading the Iliad as presenting Helen's feelings as mingled anger and regret coupled with an insistent attraction to and desire for Paris is so very interesting.

The lover, desiring, fighting herself and losing. Helen as the lover, the actor and subject at all, instead of the beloved, the object, the one whose desires and wants doesn't matter. Of course, as Helen is a woman, her desires and wants in regards to what is happening during the war actually doesn't matter. Which is, personally, why I even more would rather have her as desiring and wanting, even if she regrets.

(The first screencap up there is from The Justice of Aphrodite in Sappho Fr. 1 by Anne Giacomelli ; the second screencap is The Homeric Hymn to Aphrodite: Erotic "Ananke" by Hugh Parry)

[red-moon-at-night]

So you know this section of the Cypria fragment synopsis:

The Greeks take up their dead and send envoys to the Trojans demanding the surrender of Helen and the treasure with her. The Trojans refusing, they first assault the city, and then go out and lay waste the country and cities round about. After this, Achilles desires to see Helen, and Aphrodite and Thetis contrive a meeting between them. The Achaeans next desire to return home, but are restrained by Achilles, who afterwards drives off the cattle of Aeneas, and sacks Lyrnessus and Pedasus and many of the neighbouring cities, and kills Troilus. — Proclus, Chrestomathia, i

I am endlessly curious how that meeting between Achilles and Helen went down and what they talked about.

Especially with the implication that after meeting her he stops the Achaeans from returning home and has gained some new motivation to fight (and kill).

[the-phoenix-heart]

Please do spill some of your Mama Greece hcs sometime if you feel comfortable because I love your thoughts on her

You have unleashed a beast Grammy. Here's a brief life history of my Mama Greece. (I can say so much more)

Human Name: Helene (also Lavinia, we'll get to it)

Her father was Mycenae (Mycenaean Greece). She looked up to him greatly as a child.

I headcanon that the City-States of Greece were also personified, and that Helene represented the Greek World as a whole, the one that followed after Mycenae Greece. The City-States aren't really related to her, I kind of characterize them as a cousins.

The City-States don't have much personality that I've decided, but Sparta was a women and a badass, and Athens was a philosophizing misogynist.

For a long time, because Helene represented the Greek World as a whole and the City-States were in charge of themselves she mostly got to spend her time doing whatever the hell she wanted. Disguising herself as a man often, and becoming a genius in mathematics and philosophy. She wasn't so much bothered with war and work for a long time, though she was was a skilled sword woman. She spent much of her time in this period in a hedonistic lifestyle (and I like to think she was involved with the Cult of Dionysus)

And then there was Persia. Their relationship was one you could call enemies with benefits. Vitriolic, Helene didn't much like him, but he was a good fuck. Their relationship got worse overtime, though there was a mutual respect between the two. Basically the France and England of the Ancient times.

When Macedonia began to conquer Greece, I characterize this as him killing off the City-States. Now obviously these places lived on, but it was still a turning point in Greek history, and I think eventually Macedonia would go after Helene - to become the "true" Greek World - and Helene would kill him in turn.

This is when Helene takes on a lot more responsibility. She becomes more a warrior and get into politics. This is also around the time where she and Persia have their final match and she kills him.

Greece is born around this time. Either he pops out of the ground and she finds him, or she actually gives birth to him. I headcanon he comes out of the ground. Either way, he is her and Persia's son and is born during the Hellenistic Period. (What will eventually become Iran is also born of this union and Idk if Helene had any contact with her at this time)

Gonna skip forward a bit to her relationship with Rome. Rome is a complex relationship. They did deeply love each other, Rome more so. He would call her the Venus to his Mars. That said, he still cheated on her frequently, and she could never truly forgive him for taking over her. Still, they were married. They were a devoted, loving couple. She was a vital part of him and his muse in many respects. And she helped raise his children. Romano was her son with Rome, and she was one of Veneziano's mothers (Vene has two mothers, her and Gaul, and Rome is obviously his father.)

(Rome tried to bring Gaul back home once and Helene shut that shit down quickly.)

She lived off and on between her house in her homelands and Rome's villa. I don't know where Greece was at the time, although a part of me wants to say Greece was not allowed to be raised in Rome's home with his sons. So possibly Greece spent most of his time when he and his Mama would visit Rome living with the servants and Helene would be sure to visit him throughout the day and make sure he was doing alright. When they would return to her home she would make sure she could be as openly affectionate with him as possible.

The "Divorce" happens when she becomes the Eastern Roman Empire, which Rome wasn't exactly a fan of. She moved to Constantinople with Greece, though she and Rome may have sometimes had secret trysts.

I have this imagine in my head that when he died she found his body and slipped his bloody helmet off of his head and placed it on her own. She renamed herself the Byzantine Empire and took on a new human name, Lavinia. The ancient of wife of Aeneas.

Also, as Byzantine she marries Kievan Rus (Olga) or at least they become a couple for a while, which makes her technically Ukraine, Russia, and Belarus's other mother. There was some love there, but their relationship was strained. She was not much of a mother to Rus's kids as well, though Ukraine has memories of Mama Byzantine and how powerful and glorious she was.

As for Romano and Veneziano, both were territories for her at a time, but I think she would have left them in their respective territories to be educated/raised by their people in charge. They are just a reminder of their father and what he did to her, though she does miss them and sometimes visit them. I think losing Romano would've been harder on her than losing Veneziano. Romano was always her favorite of the two, plus the loss of Southern Italy was different than the loss of Venice. She willingly gave Veneziano indepdence. Romano she held onto for a long time but eventually lost.

...Plus little Veneziano would eventually take the attitude of "Fuck You This Is Mine Now" and played a part in her weakening when he not only funded a trip to reinstate a deposed Byzantine prince but then looted and pillaged Constantinople when he didn't get his money back and took some more of her lands. Bad Veneziano. Sit in your corner and think about what you've done (I genuinely don't know how this works with his canon personality but this did all happen irl) (also yes I see Veneziano as Venice because I find that to make the most sense and be coolest for his character)

And then we fast forward to her eventual death at the hands of Turkey. Do I think he loved her? ...I think he was in awe of her. I think he loved the idea of her. I think he looked at her history and I think he wished that he could be like her or wished that he could be with her. But also, he did kill her. In my imagery laden mind he finds her under an olive tree and killed her there. Maybe there was a fight. Maybe she finally accepted it.

tl;dr: Helene starts as the heir to a power vacuum after the death of her father, but instead of taking charge and responsibility she spends her time doing as she pleases and learning while the city-states handle things. Until Macedonia roles up and she kills him before he can kill her and she takes charge, she kills her rival and sometimes lover Persia and he gives her her greatest treasure Herakles, her son. And also has a daughter that she doesn't interact with much. She marries Rome to survive and forms a loving, if dysfunctional marriage and has another son Romano, and there's also Veneziano who is her son with Rome but also Gaul. When Rome is killed she takes her place as the Byzantine empire and spends years just trying to survive and adapt and persevere until finally she accepts her death at the hands of Turkey.

For personality headcanons: I characterize her being motivated by a fear of death to collect as many skills as possible and adapt to her surroundings. The Greeks HATED talking about death and I think that would bleed over into her actual beliefs. I think she rarely, if ever, let herself die, because she was always afraid that she would die for the final time.

By the end of her life she is a full on genius. Math, language, astronomy, art, philosophy, even music and theatre. She had this insatiable curiosity and need to learn that sometimes overtook her best instincts of survival.

Physical Headcanons: 6'0'' because I can. Her body fluctuates between incredibly muscular, on the thicker side, and thin from weakness over her many years of life. For some basic ages: By the the she kills Persia she is physically in her early twenties. Late twenties when she marries Rome. Early thirties when she takes over as Byzanties. Early-Mid forties at her death (Turkey is into Milfs).

This is what I think she would have looked like probably around the time she married Rome. It is missing a few details. She's not as tanned as I imagine her, she doesn't have the moles I imagine her having, and I couldn't get her nose right-I imagine she has a hooked nose.

[child-of-hurin]

Devastated that I can’t reblog that post about Gen having mother issues (which I agree with wholeheartedly) because it is written in a way that implies that he’s into Irene because he sees something mother-ish in her (cringe)

[glassknee]

Girl with something fucking wrong with her but then it turns out she is pretty normal. And her bff the girl who is pretty normal but oh wait hold on

[h-doodles]

BEHHH imagine Helene calling Larissa and Marilyn petnames in tagalog🤭 Mahal ko or sinta. And it’s one of the only ways that Helene can fluster them back. ALDJKSJDJ

GIRL ITS 5 AM ANONG GINAGAWA MOOOOOO

But also YES UR SOOOO RIGHT skdbdkxndkdld actually here's more elaboratibg on that!!!!

Okay so by virtue Marilyn knows a bit of tagalog with her interactions with Rafael during those days she spent sneaking into the kitchens to make a pot of tea in the nights before she & Larissa got together and like. one night Rafael recieves a package and opens it there and sees it's an expensive (BUT PRACTICAL) gift from yours truly so he dials up Helene and goes

Raf: Helene Salazar, ano tong abubot na pinadala mo?

Helene: Tito naman,,, sabi mo kasi walang ano dyan ehhhh

and basically lol he reprimands her for spending so much money (ang mahal nito, sira ulo ka talagang bata ka! || this is expensive, you must be out of your mind, child! ) but is persuaded to keep it (yeah well it's just a thank you for helping me pass my finals po, and DON'T WORRY ABOUT IT, sagot naman ng credit card ni Daddy! || (...) DON'T WORRY ABOUT IT, dad's credit card paid for it!)

(Raf snorts bc he hates the man's guts but loves his only niece, so.)

ANYWAYS he ends the call but not before Helene's "Bye titoooooo, take care always & remember mahal kitaaaaaaa" (Bye uncleeeeee, take care always & remember I love youuuuuu) echoes loud enough for Mari to overhear

anyways she asks & Raf explains how our words have different meanings with different sounds so. hehe

meanwhile Larissa seeing Helene being a songerist <3 while she was finishing cleanup, serenading the empty kitchen lol

ANYWAYS KDHDKDJDJDKS they're DEFINITELY SOFT WHEN READER/HELENE CALLS THEM MAHAL/SINTA/IROG

ok but also Helene serenading them when they're alone and like. WAUGH HHH HHHHHHHH

also Helene using Mutya for Larissa & Liyag for Marilyn!!!!!! bc Larissa IS a precious gem & Marilyn is a beloved darling!!!!!!

they're DEFINITLEY fucking flustered babe, they're so soft

ok but waug hhhhhhh Rissa & Mari calling Helene as Liwanag is dking so much damage to my brain rn HELP Akdbddndbsksks pls girl hold me the braincells are escaping!!!!!!!