#from what i know about miraculous ladybug it does in fact Have Problems

[spidermanifested]

saw a post last night saying that everyone should be into at least 1 "problematic media" and thrn the op kept getting mad at people who tagged it like, miraculous ladybug, and well. i think that might be a little bit your own fault there comrade. like if youre not going to share what you mean by "problematic" with the class

[buggachat]

legitimate question ....... why do people like to tell me all the reasons they don't like miraculous ladybug? i know i complain about the fact a lot, and i find myself on the defensive a lot, and i keep telling myself i'll stop and let it go, but it really is hard when people are always coming onto my posts, in my replies, in my comments, on my art and my fics and my text posts and anything i make, and telling me blatantly all the ways that they don't like the thing that i so blatantly find enjoyment in. "the show is bad". okay? good for you? why are you on my post about it? why don't you make your own? why are you telling me, specifically, this, on the art/fic/analysis i made that i assume you found by searching through the tag?

it's kind of a behavior that i legitimately don't understand. I'm a human being and I hate a lot of things, too. there are things i've loved at first and been disappointed by and have strong opinions about. there are things i like to complain about. so i'll complain about them to my friends or my family or my cat. but i have never, once, not even for a single moment, thought, "oh let me go into the tags of this media, find a positive post about it written by someone who's having fun with it, and make it that random stranger's problem". never once.

i just don't get it. i really don't get it. i sometimes worry that i come across like i'm heavily critical of people who just personally don't like the show, when really i'm just trying to defend my interests to the droves of strangers who are always coming specifically to me to tell me all the ways they hate the thing that makes me happy.

just.......... why? where does the urge come from? what do you get out of this?

[sairenharia]

Why Chloe Deserved A Miraculous

Its a thought that's been stewing in my head and the more I thought about it, the more I realized it was true. Chloe was entitled to a Miraculous.

From a Doylist Perspective.

When there is conversations of if Chloe was entitled to a Miraculous is always presented from a Watsonian perspective. For those who don't know, Watsonian means the perspective of someone inside the story. A character. Doylist is the perspective of those in the real world. The author and audience.

The problem I see from fandom discourse is how often people don't actually consider the tools in a story. Often they take a Watsonian perspective, talk about what is right and sensible and should be how things work if this was a real situation. But the thing about stories is they have messages. They have tools and metaphors and themes to help display these messages. Sure, shows are about entertainment, but a story always has some kind of point. It may not be a moral lesson, it may not be some grand philosophy, but any story worth telling says SOMETHING. It takes a stance. The Fast and the Furious is all about doing cool stunts with cars, but it also has a message of doing things for family because if you just want to see cool car stunts, just go watch cool car stunts, but no, people want at least a little humanity in the car stunts, so there is a message of family. Sharing is caring, do your best, the heat death of the universe comes for us all, the messages can be vast, but there's some point of emotional reality to invest us in this specific media.

If we talk about Chloe and the Miraculous from a Watsonian perspective, no, she is not entitled to a Miraculous. No one is entitled to an object of power. Not even Marinette nor Adrien are entitled to their Miraculous.

But superpowers aren't real. Superpowers have always been a tool to emphasize a point. The stories of superman only focused on his powers are boring, but when you tell stories of how he tries to fit into a world that is not made for him, stories of how much he loves this world despite how easy it could be to be cruel, it gets interesting. The reason superhero comics started is there was a want to show that there can be incredibly powerful people who choose to be good. To choose to make the world a better place.

Superpowers made just to be cool and show off are boring. There is only so much you can watch a fight with a cool power before it gets dull and repetitive. But you relate the powers, the struggles of using the powers, to the person wielding them, the story has a lot more staying power. The powers say something about the person, and is part of their development.

And honestly, Miraculous is a good case for why this is important.

Because good god, most of the superhero team is boring.

And I don't just mean because they're good people, so there's no spice, though that's also true, but because the powers aren't really used to emphasize anything about the character. Max has portals. Why? His mom wants to be an astronaut, but we never really hear about Max wanting to travel. Doorman is a better example of a portal hero because he loves going to other places and learning about them.

Now portals are good for a tactician....except Max is never the tactician despite the fact we know he's brilliant and is good at video games. He just does as he's told by Ladybug for where he should put his portals. Its so close, but its not utilized.

And that is the case for most of the superheroes. Like the bones are there, but nothing is properly utilized. Sabrina is definitely a dog, good at getting things, and is in fact well practiced in recognizing what things may or may not be important. But we've never actually gotten to focus on her BEING a superhero, she only had a small cameo with the power, basically. Same with Ivan, really. They're pretty perfect for their powers and it suits their personalities, but none of it is EXPLORED. And that's the case with most of the heroes.

Juleka and Rose were pretty good at using the Miraculous to develop more of someone's character and emphasize a strength about another in turn. These are good hero episodes because we learned more about them and their journey.

Kagami's first episode with the dragon showed off more of her, such as she could be reckless, which is new information, but we learn a lot about her without it, and nothing new beyond that.

Luka could have actually been incredibly good because the snake both emphasizes a big part of him, and something he needs to work on. Luka is someone who steps back and watches. He observes. However, he has a problem where he often is too willing to step back. But with the snake needs someone who can observe AND act. So its a Miraculous that uses an important part of his personality, but could have also helped him grow.

And the rest are just...nothing.

There is a little for Nino and Alya. Nino is definitely more bold about defending his friends than he was at first, and Alya learns to be better about secrets, but these are the primary secondary heroes. We should have seen a ton of impact and development due to them having the Miraculous.

Here is the stance Miraculous should be taking in their story.

The desperation of those trapped and the power of being given good options.

Most of the Akumas are people who are trapped. They feel powerless. They are desperate to escape their problem and feel like they have no proper recourse with things are they are. How accurate this is varies, but this is how they feel in the moment, and that is what Gabriel preys on. These people agree to the deal because they don't feel like they will be helped any other way.

Ladybug and Chat Noir are meant to bring hope to those who felt hopeless and chose a terrible way to try and escape. They are support. They are a hand people desperately need.

So by that same token, the Miraculous should be a good way for people who feel trapped to be given an option, OR give those people the ability to extend their own hands to help others.

While it doesn't have to every time, it should often be the case those who are given a Miraculous; A, dealing with a huge problem and the Miraculous helps them solve that problem, regardless to the Akuma being related. Like if Juleka was working on trying to speak up even if the Akuma wasn't her parents and the Tiger still helped her do that. B, they are related to the Akuma and why they feel trapped, so they are working through their own issues with the important person. Like Rose when Juleka felt guilty. Or C, the person wants to find a way to help in general and kind of go how it went with Nino becoming Carapace. Where they were trying to be that hand a person needed, and earn the Miraculous, and that helps them on their journey to provide more support and help.

But its often it is someone they know, but them being the hero doesn't REALLY matter. Penalteam, the people were just there, these specific people didn't matter. Why did Zoe need to be Vesperia? Anyone could have taunted Chloe and she got turned into a banana real fast, her being the Bee didn't really bring a lot, to the bee, to her, or even to Chloe, and then she proceeded to just not bring much as the Bee, to the story, or herself.

Now part of this problem is that Marinette is not allowed to not learn a lesson, and has to be the one to save the day. These heroes do have skills. They have things they could be good at. But often....the plan is just what Marinette says. These heroes are not allowed to have agency.

They can't make decisions on their own.

Often times, they're just bodies being told to do the power without the ability to make the decision how and when. Sometimes they let the heroes do things and make decisions, but nine times out of ten, its Marinette who says who does what and when and her mental health is degrading because of it.

The Akumas are stories that always at least tell us something about the person because we see what problems hit them hard. There is something to learn, a bit of conflict to develop from.

The Miraculous should be following that trend, but in a positive way, but...doesn't.

All that being said.

Chloe was entitled to the Miraculous.

Because here is the stance Miraculous takes.

Someone is trapped in a situation and chooses to lash out violently and while that violence can not be permitted to continue, the heroes offer their support so the victim can feel like they have another option.

This is the story of Miraculous crystalized. People who feel alone and helpless are easily convinced to hurt others until someone is willing to help them despite this harm.

Chloe is the story of Miraculous.

Akumas are a metaphor.

And Chloe is the reality.

A child who is alone. Who feels trapped in her situation. Who doesn't know what else to do. So she does the only thing she knows how. She lashes out. She hurts people. She keeps them distant because then it doesn't hurt as much when they leave, or when they treat her like dirt.

Chloe is an Akuma personified, but her problems are brief moments. They're not a bad day that someone took advantage of. They are ever present and continuous and more over, reinforced to continue.

Chloe knows being a brat gets her what she wants from her father and was never taught to not be like that. Because he didn't discipline her, because her mother acted like that, because all adults around her was staff. Making demands is what she was TAUGHT and learned, through observation and guidance.

A behavior she continued to do with kids, and she found out teachers responded to the same threats and was never properly stopped. Other kids, reasonably, didn't want to deal with her, or submitted to her like Sabrina.

Chloe was not never taught how to be good. She was, in fact, very much taught to NOT be good. Her parents both set a terrible example. Her father is a corrupt politician. He may spoil her, but he we know he bribes and blackmails people, plus, you know, abandoned his daughter and technically kidnapped Zoe. This is not a paragon of a man. Then there was her mother. But she had a choice, listen to the man who had to weasel and cheat and play back handed games to get what he wanted, or the woman who got anything and everything she wanted...of course she would try to be the woman who seemed to get everything her way.

Because if her mother got everything she wanted, if Chloe was like her, maybe she could get everything SHE wanted.

Except it wasn't working.

But Chloe wasn't taught it was because she was cruel. She just started to believe she wasn't GOOD ENOUGH.

Maybe if she was as great as her mother, it would work.

By the time she would be old enough to recognize that wasn't how the world worked...well, by then, most of her peers hated her.

And here is something I think goes under the radar about Zoe.

Zoe knows how to act like Chloe. Audrey didn't blink at it. Zoe defaulted to the same behavior as Chloe. Zoe said she put on an act and she was tired of it.

Zoe WAS CHLOE.

And we know what happened with Zoe. Zoe stopped acting like Chloe. And then she got bullied. People were mean and cruel and put cockroaches in her locker and she only had one friend.

I'm sure that's why Zoe moved to Paris. Zoe went to her mom because she wanted a clean slate. She wanted the bullying to stop.

Even then, she struggled to stop. She defaulted to her habit, and we see that she CONTINUED the act around the hotel for some weeks after, because it was a hard habit to break.

But then...

Zoe got support. A hand was held out to her. Marinette gave her a chance, and so did everyone else, and Zoe took it because she wanted to be herself and she wanted to stop being cruel. Of course she's nice. She was given the space to be so.

Chloe is never given that support.

Chloe doesn't know how to be kind. She doesn't know how to be nice.

But the greatest tragedy is Chloe does know how to be GOOD.

Out of all the heroes, besides Chat, to a lesser degree Alya, and Alix and Luka by nature of their Miraculous, Chloe shows the most agency as a superhero. All the other heroes have their hands held by Ladybug. She tells them what to do, to an overly specific degree, and they are just bodies to use a tool. Chloe? Chloe acts on her own. To good and bad effect. Discounting the whole Queen Wasp break down, just when Chloe is actually acting as a superhero, she doesn't wait for Ladybug to tell her everything all the time. She calls out to her father, which was a mistake, but then there is every other time she's Queen Bee...

And she's fantastic at it.

Miraculer, she almost had Mayura's Miraculous.

Star Train, she gets people away from the Akuma.

In Bakerix, she's the last the to leave the train car.

In Ladybug, she's defending Sabrina.

In Style Queen, played Style Queen in an effort to find a way to save Adrien.

In Heroes Day, she is a great teammate. Keep in mind, everyone on the team knows who Chloe is. Ladybug was desperate and doesn't fully trust Chloe as a general rule. Rena Rouge and Carapace definitely don't trust her at all. Chat Noir is the only one who believes in Chloe as a person.

And yet, throughout the entire fight, Chloe is keeping up and picking up the slack with everyone else. She fights, she keeps civilians from being hurt, her synergy is on fire despite the lack of trust. When Rena Rouge and Carapace go down, she is quick to try and protect them and even after two EXTREMELY dangerous Akuma show up by way of her parents, who are both gunning for her real hard, she holds her own for a while and even then, she had to be mind controlled to stop and to feel negative emotions. It took FOUR AKUMAS gunning for her specifically to corrupt her, akums who are made to mess her up mentally to boot. When they confront Gabriel at the end, she prepares venom without being asked, to have a back up for taking him down. She makes decisions and when she was trusted to act as a hero, they are largely good ones.

And she never once complained about the mental hardship of what she went through. Because that's the thing, all her times as Queen Bee are super intense. They are her loved ones she's fighting, they are incredibly powerful Akumas. She fought a frickin' army.

And everyone...

Just insults her.

She risked her life for people and no one cared.

She fought her family and no one cared.

Chloe doesn't know how to be nice. Nor kind. But she was so good. And while the next day, people appreciated her, it was only a day.

And the tragedy is Chloe didn't immediately go back to being a bully. After Despair Bear, Chloe's bullying habits took an extreme nose dive. We only see her being unreasonably cruel a few times. After Maledikator, the only time is when she bullies Aurore and when she teamed up with Marinette, but also Marinette was with her and they were both doing it for fear of losing Adrien reasons. Not reasonable, but also not just to be cruel and honestly, her plan was fairly benign. She wanted Kagami to leave, not even humiliate her. And even Aurore is because Chloe was reaching the point she did in Miraculer where she was doubting Ladybug's trust in her and as she is want to do, she lashed out.

Most of the time when we see Chloe, what we see is her bragging about being Queen Bee. Which, sure, isn't a great thing...

But better a braggart than a bully. And when things go wrong, she tries to use her status to help reassure and guide people, which is actually a pretty good idea. Akumas are attracted to negative emotions. If she can reassure them, then less likely of them getting akumatized. It may be bragging, but it could help.

Chloe may not have been picture perfect nice, but we literally have an entire classroom full of perfectly nice people. She may not be humble, but bragging is not a damnable offense. But Chloe was legitimately trying to be a better person. She put herself in between others and danger. She had faith and belief that there were solutions. Even without the Miraculous, she tried to help people.

She may have wanted appreciate and gratitude for it, but what's even sadder is she didn't require it.

Chloe believed in Ladybug for a long time. She believed Ladybug would trust her again. She believed she could be given a Miraculous again, and all on her own, ALL ON HER OWN, she was trying to be a better person.

Its actually amazing how good Chloe was being despite the fact no one was helping her.

Because that is the thing.

Zoe got support and help.

Chloe didn't.

Every. Single. Time. Chloe tried to do something different, something not cruel, she is rejected. She tries to join the art club and she's mocked out of it. She tries to be class representative, a job no one else wanted for years, and she loses it as soon as someone did challenge her. She auditions, legitimately, for a music video, with eight years of practice, and she loses it because she isn't nice enough.

She stops bullying, tries to be a reassuring presence, and she is treated with suspicion and derision.

And still.

And STILL.

That isn't what breaks her.

What breaks her is the realization the only time where her efforts were appreciated was taken away. And even then, she holds onto the pieces. Holds onto hope that maybe she would be given a new chance.

Her parents are in danger. The reason she was given she couldn't be a hero is because she and her loved ones would be in danger.

Except her loved ones were in danger.

She was in danger.

Not having a Miraculous didn't change anything. It didn't keep them safe, it didn't keep her safe.

And its only then, after months of no one believing in her for more than two days, of no one holding out their hand, helping her, supporting her, believing her, with the one person she thought DID believe in her proved that she didn't believe in her, and couldn't even give her the safety that not having a Miraculous was supposed to bring.

For months, Chloe only thought Ladybug believed she could be good.

Adrien wanted her to be less cruel, but Chloe knew her being good wasn't necessary for him.

Nor was it for Sabrina.

But Ladybug?

Ladybug needed her to be good to believe in her, and she thought Ladybug did.

Chloe was able to largely bite back her desires to lash out at people based purely on the fact one person, ONE SINGULAR PERSON, needed her to be good, and believed in her ability to be so. It got her derision. It got her suspicion. It got people comparing her to villains. It got her dismissal. But she still tried. She still believed.

A person who didn't really believe in Chloe very much.

And there is also the Watsonian argument that Marinette doesn't owe it to Chloe to help her improve AND THIS IS INCREDIBLY VALID and honestly, in a perfect world, it would be great if it was Adrien who helped Chloe improve.

Or you know, Zoe. Someone who has a clean slate with Chloe and understands where she's coming from and could help her.

But no, this is the Marinette Has To Solve Everything Show.

So from a Doylist view, it IS Marinette who has to help Chloe, but also the Watsonian problem could be helped if it was CLEARLY ESTABLISHED that Marinette knows she doesn't HAVE to help Chloe, and people aren't pressuring her to do so (coughBustiercough) because that is a bad message...

But Marinette can CHOOSE to help her and make that clear.

Because Marinette has seen a lot of Chloe and could understand that she really does just need a little more help. That Chloe needed just a bit more support and help. And, you know, didn't actively encourage Chloe to please her abuser.

But we're going from the Doylist view and we can solve the Marinette being the one to help Chloe problem by not having it be Marinette, but LADYBUG.

And this?

This is why I say Chloe was entitled to a Miraculous.

Because Chloe is the reality of the stance of the show, and so helping her problem with the metaphors would go a long way.

You see, Chloe doesn't know Ladybug is Marinette. And Marinette knows being Ladybug means being the bigger person. Ladybug believes in people. Ladybug helps everyone she can. Its not about the victim helping their bully, its the superhero choosing to help someone who NEEDS HELP.

Chloe is stuck in her situation. Her mother will always be emotionally abusive. Her father will always be an enabler. She can try to change, but no one will BELIEVE in her change. She will be derided and mocked and treated poorly because no one is willing to give her the chance to grow, and they certainly won't help.

Frankly, its a miracle that Chloe's Akumas are so merciful.

Because Banana Queen is the most destructive of Chloe's Akuma forms. Most of Chloe's Akuma forms don't care about HURTING people. They care about WINNING. She either wants to win or for people to just listen to her.

But give Chloe the Bee Miraculous, and suddenly things change.

Chloe feels like she has OPTIONS as Queen Bee. She doesn't feel she has to meet her mother's expectations as much if she's Queen Bee. She has people who trust and depend on her. At least right after she saves people, she gets a little praise, a little belief.

And people may say being a hero for glory and attention is a bad thing, but the thing is, Chloe's need for glory and attention is about being ACKNOWLEDGED. As feeling like people value and care about her. This is a BASIC HUMAN NEED and she doesn't know another way to get it. Its not like she's demanding physical things for her heroics.

She just wants to be appreciated.

By giving Chloe a Miraculous, she is given the tools to try and be good. She is given an escape from her situation. She is given SUPPORT in her efforts because the other heroes have to support her.

And over time...

That trust will grow.

Because what Chloe doesn't know, all her classmates are the other heroes.

And suddenly, all her classmates will see her as a different person. They will see what she's like when the chips are down. How much effort she's willing to put in. How seriously she takes the job.

Is she still a braggart? Sure. Is she still rude as hell? Absolutely.

But she will risk it all to help people, without asking for anything in return except a little faith.

Chloe is entitled to a Miraculous.

Because her story without a Miraculous is a story of a little girl who no one wanted to help, who were unwilling to offer her help because she lashed out while trying to survive a situation she couldn't escape, and because it wasn't super charged by a terrorist, she was deemed unworthy of it and instead deserving of isolation and constant emotional abuse.

But with a Miraculous?

Chloe is a girl who, when given a little faith, a little trust, a little help, returned it tenfold. Who puts her all in trying to be the best hero she could be. Is she imperfect? Sure. But she's giving it her all. (And frankly, she's spicy and it makes for entertaining character dynamics. You can have a character be a jerk and good, tsunderes are popular for a reason.) And as she gets more trust, as she gets more help, as she is offered that hand of help over and over again, she would continue to improve.

And as she's given power, she uses that same faith to figure out how to offer her hand to others. To help them. To spare them the same pain she suffered.

Because that is what given to the Akuma victims. They are given a little help, and a little power to break free of their magically abusive mindsets.

To have someone go from the continuing the cycle of abuse to someone who would save other people from that?

That is a real superhero story.

Chloe is undeserving from a Watsonian perspective.

But she's so very deserving from a Doylist perspective.

[miraculouslbcnreactions]

When I first saw a Miraculous Ladybug salt post it was the usual Lila takes away all of Marinette's friends Adrien does nothing Marinette becomes super successful Lila gets exposed blah blah blah

When I see posts like the ones you post where people give actual constructive criticism about the characters and not favor one character over the other has made me realize that these are fictional characters and its not their fault they are the way they are. Also they're 14 what kind of 14 year old makes good choice's? Especially when they have the fate of the world/universe on their shoulders

If anything the character I really blame is Master Fu. He was obviously meant to be some sort of mentor figure for them or at least Marinette's mentor. He was the one to tell and encourage Marinette to keep everything a secret from Adrien. Comparing him to other mentor like figures in the world of superheros he isn't really all that helpful.

Compared to DC Ladybug and Chat Noir do not have any adult superheros to help them. In DC younger superheros have entire superhero families to help them out and if not that than they have other adult superheros to help them or they have an actual team. We know that other miraculous holders exist and the order is back I have a vague idea as to why they can't help but I still find it weird as to why they are around if not to help. Like phones and the internet exist do they not?

Sorry for they rant, I want to know what your thoughts are on this?

Your rant was fine! I don't think that I've talked in depth about mentors as a concept and I should both because I love mentors and because Miraculous has completely failed to give us any good ones. This is a writing failure not because good mentors are required, but because the show chose to have mentors characters and then not use them.

Before I get into the topic at large, I want to start with a brief discussion of mentors in shows aimed at young children as Miraculous' intended audience is young children and that fact is worth keeping in mind when discussing what Miraculous did wrong and some of the ways that you can fix it.

Shows aimed at kids generally avoid adult characters in major roles for the very obvious reason that the intended audience is kids, so you want the kid and teen characters to be the stars. This doesn't mean that adults aren't allowed to save the day or have important roles. It just means that they should be used sparingly. This is why mentors are a great addition to kids shows. They allow adult characters to be deeply involved with the plot without anyone expecting them to intervene because that's not their role in the story. They're not here to be the hero. They're here to guide the hero.

One of the powerful things about this setup is that it allows the writers to give the real kids watching at home real advice about real life problems. For example, if Marinette comes to Fu to talk about feeling alone and overwhelmed, then he can give her real, practical advice that would apply to anyone who is feeling alone and overwhelmed, but no one expects him to directly intervene because he's supposed to say hidden.

A lot of these elements apply to mentors in media aimed at older audiences, the rules just apply for different reasons, so I'm going to stop reminding you that Miraculous is for elementary school kids and focus on the failed mentor issue as it would be an issue no matter what Miraculous' intended audience was.

When it comes to bad mentoring, a lot of people focus on Fu and I get why. At first glance, he's the classic wise old Asian man who is supposed to be there to guide the protagonist on her mystical journey (not getting into the racism issue here, just know that I'm aware of it and that Miraculous dropped the ball on this in a lot of ways even though they absolutely could have made it work.) But Fu isn't the main focus of my ire because, while the writers seemed to have designed him around the mystic Asian trope, they never actually wrote him like a mentor.

He doesn't train Marinette and Adrien in the ways of the miraculous. He just sneakily gives them their miraculous and then disappears from their lives for quite some time. So he's not around to get them properly started on their hero journey. That's strike one for the mentor role.

Strike two is the fact that we never actually see him mentoring Marinette. I don't think that she ever went to him for advice? If she did, then it wasn't a big element of their relationship. When I think of Marinette and Fu, I picture her going to him to grab a miraculous or two before booking it back to the ongoing fight and that's about it. The guardian training she supposedly had was all off screen, so we have no idea how close they were or what he even taught her outside of potion making. Even that wasn't really him teaching her something. It was them working together to figure out a puzzle because Fu never completed his own training, making it impossible for him to properly train a successor.

Strike three is the fact that - outside of the King Monkey incident - Fu never gets directly involved in helping team miraculous. He's never gives them feedback on fights or works with Ladybug and Chat Noir to strengthen their bond. He doesn't even help them track down the two missing miraculous or hand out the temporary miraculous on Marinette's behalf, a choice I still find super weird. "This fight is super hard and we need help, so I'm going to leave Chat Noir to fight alone while I go get said help!" is absolutely nonsense logic and one of the many examples of the writers desperately needing to let Marinette hand her responsibilities off. Why wasn't this Fu's job?

This brings us to fix one: if you want the guardian to be a mentor - which is a role they arguably should have - then the guardian needs to be actively involved in Marinette and Adrien's lives in an on screen way. For this to work in the context of Miraculous - a show that really wants to focus on the teen characters - then the guardian probably needs a teenage apprentice who isn't Marinette and that apprentice will be the one doing the mentoring.

My pick for this is Luka for two big reasons. The first one is that his calm personality is perfectly suited to a mentor. The second one is that it seems insane to me to have the snake be a temp holder. The snake should be watching every fight, but staying out of the actual fight so that they can use their power whenever it's needed. That's the perfect role for a mentor character to fill. Someone who is active in the plot, but only ever as a support because their power stops them from getting more involved.

Moving on to the bigger issue.

As I said up above, Fu doesn't actually get my ire. While I wanted him to be a mentor, he never once filled that role and he didn't really need to because the show already had mentor figures that it was actively using and using poorly. Those figures are the ancient magical creatures that follow our heroes around, dispensing terrible advice whenever they feel like it. That's right, as much as it pains me, Miraculous' biggest mentor failures are Tikki and Plagg.

The miraculous did not need to have magical creatures associated with them. They could have just been magical jewelry that Fu handed out and explained. Instead, the writers chose to give us the Kwamis and I don't disagree with that choice. I like the Kwmais! The problem is that they're used in the most lackluster, asinine ways you possibly could.

The Kwamis are not presented as oblivious to the world and unable to give advice. They give lots of advice! The problem is that advice tends to suck! I can think of many examples of times where the Kwamis made everything worse, but let's look at the one that grinds my gears the most: Plagg's actions in season four.

In Rocketear - the episode where Nino gives Adrien an incredibly inaccurate picture of why he knows Alya's secret identity - we get this:

Adrien: I still can't believe Ladybug entrusted Alya and Nino with those Miraculous. Plagg: Of course she did. She's the Guardian. Adrien: But they're a couple and they know each other's secret identities. Plagg: So...? Adrien: So, why does she make it a rule that we can't know each other's identities but it's okay for them? Plagg: She's the Guardian, the Grandmaster Cheese Ripener, and you and I are just cheese on the platter. She decides what's on the menu.

Hey, Plagg, maybe don't tell your clearly upset and vulnerable teenage holder to just suck it up and deal with it when he's feeling alone and betrayed? Maybe encourage him to talk to Ladybug about his feelings so that he can get the full story? Knowing that they learned their identities during the Scarlet Moth incident would probably do a lot to smooth over Adrien's hurt feelings.

What's even more rich is that the episode Kuro Neko lets Plagg go off on Marinette for not appreciating Chat Noir:

Ladybug: What's gotten into him? I didn't do anything. Plagg: Didn't do anything? Well yeah, you did! You've been neglecting a very classy piece of camemebert on your plate for too long! And as a result it got runny, and moldy! Ladybug: What? Cat Noir never gave me any camembert. Plagg: Of course not, Cat Noir is the camembert! For a while now, you've been neglecting this camembert— I mean Cat Noir, and going on adventures with the all other cheeses! Ladybug: But he should be happy about it, it gives him more time off. Plagg: Cat Noir doesn't wanna have time off, Ladybug! He is in love with you! And your persistent calling on all the other heroes has broken his heart.

Dude, if you saw all of this going on, then why didn't you say something??? You and Tikki are in the same location for multiple hours five days a week. Go tell her how your holder is feeling and figure out how to fix the situation! Or be an actual mentor and encourage Adrien to talk to someone about his feelings! At the very least, cut up a wheel of cheese, sit down, and listen to your kid so that he feels less alone!

Also what exactly do you want Ladybug to do to fix the problem you presented? Let Paris burn until Chat Noir decides to show up to today's fight? Refuse to use the temp heroes even if it means losing a fight? None of those are valid solutions when the problem presented in the episode is Chat Noir missing fights. Especially when we know that he's doing it on purpose. Why are you yelling at her instead of working with her to come up with an actual solution? You are such a terrible mentor...

To be clear, I don't think any of this is intentional. I don't think the writers want Plagg and Tikki to come across as actively hurting their teenage charges via bad advice. I think Plagg and Tikki are supposed to be seen as good and helpful, but they can't fill that role because they're tools of the narrative and the narrative has really wacky views on what good advice is. Thus nonsense like the example I discussed above or Plagg and Tikki picking new holders instead of guiding their holders through an identity reveal.

I personally adore letting Plagg and Tikki be good mentors in my own stuff. It falls under the same category as Alya and Nino being terrible friends on screen. I acknowledge the problem and then delight in fixing it by writing the exact opposite setup because what is fanfiction for if not heavy self indulgence?

[ilikekidsshows]

I've seen people said Adrien doesn't have motivation to be a hero but Marinette does, which is weird because I feel like it's Marinette who doesn't have a motivation to be hero beyond "people listen to Ladybug". Her lack of motivation is what confused me because as a protagonist, she's inevitably become a role model for the young audience and I find nothing about her is likeable, even more so after she become a guardian. It's as if being a guardian inflate her ego and she forgot that everyone else is a human with feelings, not just a pawn or a doll for her to play and ordered around.

Recently I found out a website that contain the concept plot and it confused me more because I feel like concept Marinette is a more grounded character than she is in the show.

Marinette's goal isn't just to be Adrien/Felix's girlfriend but she also need to collect the kwamis that she accidentally releases and she become a guardian not because of luck or favoritism like how it is in the show, it's because her grandfather is the guardian. Adrien/Felix doesn't even become Chat Noir because he's chosen by the guardian, it's Plagg who chose him. It's actually much better than the whole "I choose you but also I'm not going to do anything with you" that Fu pulls in the show.

i don't understand why the higher up/the sponsor reject this plot because I think this much better than whatever we have now. If they have a problem with Chat Noir being an anti-hero, then why do they accept Marinette being written like one while also hailing her as a hero?

---

“Adrien isn't motivated to be a hero” he actually likes being a hero, unlike our role model protagonist, who’d rather do anything than be Ladybug even when she's being lauded for her heroic deeds. Is this based on Adrien trying to quit when Fu or Marinette is making his job needlessly more difficult to do? Because, like, that's the only thing that he seems to dislike about being a hero, which, like, makes Marinette an even worse hero. She’s so bad at her job, she makes otherwise eager heroes lose their motivation.

I’m gonna be very honest here; Marinette becoming Ladybug because she accidentally released a bunch of magical creatures and Adrien/Félix being more of an anti-hero rival than a full-on ally would have been copied straight from Cardcaptor Sakura’s starting setup. Like, I’m not surprised that even the rejected ideas for Miraculous are copied from other properties, but it just proves that regardless of any other variables, Astruc’s creation was always going to be highly derivative. Regardless, I do feel that Fu being her grandfather instead of a stranger would have gone a long way in justifying Marinette’s special treatment both in-universe and to the audience, but that’s probably why it was rejected.

Like, we can mock the fact that Marinette isn’t actually within spitting distance of being a “normal girl with a normal life” all we like, but that doesn’t change the fact that, from a purely on-paper angle, she is pretty average. She’s a middle-schooler with pretty average hobbies who deals with normal teen problems like bullies and a crush on a boy she doesn’t know how to deal with. There’s a reason it’s the opening line for the show’s opening. It's marketable. A special chosen one from the start wouldn’t have been as marketable in the same way. Especially when we take into account how hypersensitive Astruc is to Marinette being less liked than he’d want. He’d do whatever he can think of to make sure Marinette isn’t immediately judged a “Mary Sue”.

The thing with executives is that they don't watch the shows they fund. They read the pitch, synopses, and maybe the scripts if they can find the time. And even then, they might not want to put in the money to get a script revised even if they paid enough attention to tell it was dogshit. They wouldn't be interested as long as the different Miraculous bedsheets and shampoos keep selling and as long as the show isn’t too gay to sell to other countries. Like, the show bible that Gloob leaked? The one full of inaccuracies because it was outdated? That was what the executives were most likely given when the retool went into development. In addition, corporate oversight on the show has actually decreased the longer it’s gone on, because the show’s proven itself to be a success. I’m pretty sure the higher-ups were not asked: “hey, is it okay if we make Marinette an entitled jerk who gets validated at every turn while she starts treating people worse and worse?” I’m pretty sure no one okayed Marinette’s “villain arc”, it was just allowed to pass because it didn’t make the show less marketable.

That’s the thing with any property that becomes “too big to fail”. Less oversight means less quality control. It’s like one anonymous Gamefreak employee said about making Pokémon games: “It’ll sell anyway, so it doesn’t matter if it’s bad.”

[s4tvrnsays]

Finally got around to drawing Élodie! The last artwork i did makes her look scary lol but shes a cutie pie trust me.

Some info about her:

She does ballet. She dislikes it though, and only does it because she’s forced to. She doesn’t want to be under the spotlight doing the jumps and twirls. Rather, she wants to be the one behind the camera lens, the one over the keyboard writing article after article about ballet.

Her hobby is photography. Her parents dont approve, but her older brother helps her out by getting her an early internship at the magazine where he works. Through this internship is where she will first meet adrien.

She’s a mean ass bitch lol. Has absolutely zero friends because she hates everyone at school. Alya specifically hates her the most because when she came up to Élodie to ask her if she wanted to help her with the school paper (since she knows the girl also likes journalism), Élodie just gave her a rude look and walked away, earning alyas scorn ever since haha

This isnt just some quirk, its one of her biggest problems, along with her temper. She sees people as nuisances and beneath her, ignoring the fact that she needs people in her life. Her journey —aided by her kwami— will be to be truer to herself, and learn tolerance and altruism, and be more accepting of people’s friendship.

Her favorite thing in the world is chocolate. Its an actual obsession, something her parents dont approve of (shocker) because she “has to keep her figure”. But she ignores them, and keeps a stash of it on her at all times.

The second picture is what i think she’d look like if she switched her miraculous (Élodie says she hates the bows but the girly girl inside her is jumping for joy).

Alternate Universe details under the cut!

So basically, élodie is from my enhance mlb au thats been spinning in my head recently. It’s basically a mix of early seasons miraculous and concept mlb.

It’s unlikely that this will ever be anything but a concept au bc i have commitment issues but-

Here are the things i changed/added (when it comes to the heroes):

I always thought that lb’s miraculous ladybug power shouldnt be exclusive to her, so i removed it in favor of bringing back her concept powers (the shapeshifting yoyo). In the case of cn, i gave him his old power of black hole because why the hell does he have one power????

But this poses a problem— who will cleanse the akumas? Thats where élodie comes in!

For context, in this au Ladybug and Chat Noir are WAYYYY more chaotic:

Ladybug is still the planner, but her plans are way crazier and confusing to carry out. She gets so caught up in her imagination and idea of a plan, that she fails to consider what might happen if it goes wrong.

Chat Noir is more destructive, more trigger happy with his cataclysm. He finally gets to be free of his dad breathing down his neck and he’ll he damned if he won’t enjoy it!

Élodie as Cigognelle will be the mediator between them. She makes sure the balance is kept, and that they dont blow up the world while theyre trying to save it. That is the purpose of the crane miraculous. It has the power of reguvination and longevity. The balance is preserved, lengthened, and anomalies are corrected.

Its power of increasing its holder’s lifespan made it a favorite of guardians, including Master Fu.

Its kwami, Xiann, is wise and all knowing, often picking his own holders. He sees potential in them, and aids them into becoming true cranes — true upholders of the balance between creation and destruction.

To summarize, here are the big 3’s powers. There will be primary, secondary, and passive powers for each.

Ladybug:

Primary: Lucky Charm, gives the holder clues to help them win the battle. Same as the og.

Secondary: bug bomb/shield/staff. Its in the name, the holder can transform the yoyo into one of these weapons. They can only transform it once each battle, so ladybugs must carefully choose which one will aid them. This doesn’t mean it cant go back to its og form, just that it cant turn into a bomb AND a shield in the same battle.

Passive: grants good luck to its holder. No downsides, ladybugs really are just blessed.

Oh and for fun lets give them side effects.

Side effect: holders become far more tired in the winter, sleeping longer.

Black Cat:

Primary: Cataclysm, destroys anything the holder touches, turning it into dust. Also no change.

Secondary: Black hole. The black cat holder can teleport objects from one black hole to the next. Only two black holes can be present at the same time.

Passive: grants bad luck to its holder. This causes a lot of strife for the holders, but once they learn to accept their miraculous the bad luck will lessen, though never fading.

Side effect: black cats become more nocturnal after becoming the holders of this miraculous, and may or may not have a strange fascination with small, moving objects…. (They have enough self restraint to not chase after them though…)

Crane:

Primary: Ameliorate, which heals all damage caused by unnatural forces, such as kwami powers. However, if the damage from the fight happened too long ago, it will be considered a part of the natural environment, and will only restore future damage up to that point.

Secondary: Gust. Allows the holders to create powerful wind gusts with a flap of their “wings”. Only three gusts can be created each battle (because i had to give this power a downside)

Passive: extends its holder’s lifespan by 20 and up to 40 years. Depending on how long it takes the crane holder to become a true crane, their life span will either increase by a bit (if they learn sooner) or by a BUNCH (if its later).

Side effect: lying becomes way harder, and honesty — especially to oneself — will be all that the holders can say. Also, cranes often find themselves becoming more sociable after gaining their miraculous, which is often a shock since most cranes start of as quite antisocial.

All three can cleanse akumas but only the crane can restore damage !

And thats all!!

This formatting was horrible but i didnt plan any of this, its all word vomit LOL. If you have any thoughts about this, or any way my au can be improved (bc im really trying to make sure all protagonists get equal importance and care, i don’t want Cigognelle to be a mary sue lol) please make a comment! I dont have anyone thinking this up with me, its all from my noggin, so feedback is always welcome!

[pandaofsecrets]

I really really really love the idea of the Miraculous being based on broad abstract concepts. It makes them super versatile in what powers they can provide, which helps keep the plot from going off the rails while still being fresh and interesting. The problem is that the concept (heh) wasn't utilized well at all. So, indulge me in a long-winded breakdown of ML's power system.

The cracks started showing almost immediately. The Cat and Butterfly Miraculous are okay, but the Ladybug for some reason can purify akuma and has restoration abilities, which. First of all, purification should be the Cat's ability, because it represents the destruction of impurities. Second of all, how does the power of creation allow you to restore things? I know someone will say Marinette is recreating what was destroyed, but if that's the case then Adrien is long dead and the character we're seeing right now is just a replica. Fun! Miraculous Ladybug also does more than just recreate, since we've also seen it destroy byproducts of the akuma attack, like Horrificator's slime. So if anything, it should be a combined ability of the Ladybug and the Cat. I'll talk about unifications later, let's just stick with the Miraculous for now.

The Fox and the Turtle started out great, but ended up being disappointing. Here's the thing, both Protection and Illusion have a lot of potential applications, like for example someone who uses the Fox could convince someone that anything they're saying is true, stick them in an illusionary dreamscape or even induce pain in them without actually wounding them. Someone who uses the Turtle could deplete moving objects of their momentum, make themselves immune to the opponent's magic, or imbue objects with durability. This would have made the fact that Volpina can do multiple illusions while Rena can only do one a lot less infuriating, because Rena would have had a bigger power set to draw on. Volpina on the other hand would be limited to just illusions, so she'd be able to get more mileage out of them, like a breadth vs. depth thing. Instead it's just. Rena can only do one illusion. Carapace can only do one shield. Boring!

Things got really shaky with the introduction of the Bee Miraculous, because that one isn't even related to its stated concept! "Subjection" means "bringing someone or something under one's control or influence". I don't know about you, but to me that sounds like mind control and telekinesis, not paralysis—paralyzing people sounds more like the Turtle. The writers sort of tried to fix this by changing the Bee's concept to Action, but that's almost worse because it's power is to prevent someone from taking action.

The Dragon and Rooster have a similar problem of power not really matching concept. "Perfection" means "the act of improving or making better", which sounds like the Dragon should've been a healing or restoration type Miraculous. In fact, the Rooster should've had the same power, since "sublimation" means "making nobler or purer", so the Dragon and Rooster should've really been one Miraculous instead of two. Speaking of which...

Where things really went off the rails was the Peacock Miraculous. The Peacock honestly warrants an entire separate post, but I'm getting ahead of myself. First of all, what does the concept of emotion have to do with the ability to summon a kaiju? Second of all, if the power to create a kaiju should've gone to any Miraculous, shouldn't it be, you know, the Ladybug? But no, I guess the power of Creation loses to a turkey with delusions of grandeur.

And this got even worse once the Zodiacs were introduced. Just about all of them have powers that could've easily gone to the main 7 we already had. The Ox's concept was already covered by the Turtle, the Tiger, Monkey, and Eagle do basically the same thing as the Cat, and the Mouse and Goat are basically just the Ladybug again. The Butterfly might be the worst afflicted by this. Not only is the Rooster's power of giving any power already covered under it, but one of the meanings of "to transmit" is "to send from one place to another", so the Horse's teleportation ability should've gone to the Butterfly. We could throw the Dog's power in as well, since all Fetch does is teleport an object instead of a person. Heck, since space and time are the same thing, the Rabbit's time travel should've also gone to the Butterfly. I mean, I'm glad it wasn't because that would've made the Butterfly extremely OP and would make it very hard to explain why Gabriel hasn't won by now, but you get the idea.

The only Zodiac Miraculous that are somewhat unique are the Dragon, Pig, and Snake, and even then the Snake Second Chance ability could be expressed as Butterfly (time travel) + Turtle (stasis) and the Pig's Gift could be expressed as Butterfly (empathy) + Ladybug (object) or Fox (illusion). Even the Peacock can be basically be broken down into Butterfly (empathy) + Ladybug (creation) + Bee (control) + Cat (destruction).

This brings me to my last point: unification. The way we were told combining the Ladybug and Cat works in Origins, you'd expect that unifying the Miraculous would create a new power that is the combination of the already existing ones. This means that the writers wouldn't have had to invent a new Miraculous every time they wanted to use a power, which would have saved money on character models and lead to a lot of interesting teammate match-ups. Instead, all the heroes get is the ability to use the two powers at the same time.

[theerurishipper]

Ladynoir and (In)Equality

For me personally, the most important thing in any relationship is that both partners are equals in that dynamic. I think that's a reasonable expectation to have. And Ladynoir did fulfill that requirement for me in the first 3 seasons. Even though Ladybug did most of the leadership stuff by making the plans and directing Chat Noir on what to do, it was understood that this was a mutual agreement. They both understood what they were good at, and their dynamic evolved accordingly. Chat Noir was content to follow her lead and Ladybug was content to make the plans and direct Chat Noir.

Season 2 saw the introduction of the inequality that shattered this balanced dynamic between the two, and quite frankly the later seasons only made it worse. It started in Syren, as we all know, where Chat Noir first expressed his displeasure at being left out of the loop when Ladybug was privy to important information that was being kept from him. Of course, Master Fu arrived to barely smooth things over before the issue was dropped for the season and never brought up again. Their dynamic remained as it was, but the cracks began to form here.

The introduction of Ladybug being the Guardian in Season 4 changed this established dynamic, obviously, and Ladybug began to give the Miraculous out to other holders. Keeping Chat Noir out of the loop began to become her MO, and she effectively replaced him with Rena Furtive in all but name. The central conflict of the season was the cracks forming in their relationship because of her new responsibilities and her secret keeping. And the resolution to this, as stated in Kuro Neko and Risk, is that even if he's no longer her partner, she still likes him best.

Now, the previous Ladynoir dynamic was one of equality, where they knew their roles and acted upon them. They were equals, and Ladybug's leadership in their pair was an informal one, one that was mutually agreed upon by them. The introduction of the Guardian role for Ladybug changes this from a mutually agreed upon dynamic to one where Ladybug is, for all intents and purposes, his boss. She is officially his leader, in the sense that if she so wished, he would be obliged to hand his Miraculous over to her. In the sense that she would be well within her rights to replace him if she so desired (which she does do). She is his superior, and he is no more important than the other temporary holders, with the sole exception that he holds his Miraculous permanently (which has now been exacerbated by the fact that all of them are permanent holders now).

Chat Noir received a demotion for no fault of his own, which he did not want, and someone else was promoted to replace him in the position he once occupied. Rena Furtive is Ladybug's special partner. Chat Noir is not Rena Furtive's equal, and he is definitely not Ladybug's equal.

This is not about a woman making more money than a man. She isn't just more successful than him, and this isn't about him being insecure about her being better than him. The problem is that Ladybug is Chat Noir's direct superior, and she has power over him. She has the power to call him when she needs him, and if not him, she'll get someone else. She has the resources to figure out his identity without him being none the wiser. She has the power to replace him if she wishes. Far be it from him to allow her to lead of his own accord, now he is obliged to follow her orders. She has the power to control what he knows and how he acts, and she has the power to keep vital information from him.

None of this is inherently "bad." But when you look at it from the context of them being on a path to a romantic relationship with each other, that's where the problems begin. Two people in a relationship should not have a dynamic where one has so much power over the other. Ladybug has so much power that she is able to slide a third teammate into their partnership and slowly push him away from his role at her side. She, quite unfortunately, can and has abused his trust because she had the resources to do so. The only opportunity he had in Season 4 to make his own choices that were not dictated by Ladybug's rules was when he quit. The final takeaway from this Ladynoir conflict is that Chat Noir is her favorite subordinate now (because Rena Furtive has replaced him), and just because they aren't equals anymore doesn't mean she doesn't want him around.

And, no, this was not corrected in Season 5. Season 5 was a return to their original dynamic, not because Ladybug and Chat Noir worked around this new shift in their relationship to find a way to overcome this new power imbalance. It's because Ladybug's power was forcibly taken away from her by a third party, and the only reason Chat Noir is her special partner again is because there is no one else left. But the end of Season 5 sees everyone come back, as permanent holders no less, and Chat Noir is once again demoted to his role as "just another holder like any other."

With the establishment of the Ladybug and the Black Cat Miraculous as two halves of a duo, equals in power, you'd expect them to be, well, equals. Me being upset about the inequality of these characters isn't with regards to screentime, or my wish for Adrien to be the main character or anything. My wish is for Adrien to be a character of his own. My wish is for the show to stop promoting such unhealthy dynamics as cute and fine. If they had simply made Adrien's role out to be the love interest, if they had just literally made him Ken who is content with just being Barbie's trophy boyfriend from the very beginning, if that was all his role has ever been and was meant to be from the start, I wouldn't be complaining so much. But the one they reduced into the role of Marinette's prize, the one over whom she has so much power, is the abuse victim whose arc is about self-actualization. And it paints a very disturbing picture. That far be it from Chat Noir to expect any kind of equal treatment from Ladybug, he's going to have put aside any discomforts or issues he has with their relationship to settle for being her favorite by virtue of nostalgia.

And it's just... bad, on a narrative level. Despite its ambitious introduction of so many plot points, the focus of this show has always been its romance. The main narrative goal of the series is for Ladybug and Chat Noir to get together. So, when your narrative hinges on these two characters getting together, and you decide to introduce such a power dynamic into the mix, saying "I still like you," isn't the fix that it's cracked up to be. If they are supposed to be the relationship around which the show is built, Chat Noir should be Ladybug's special partner, he should be her equal and not just another holder whom she likes better than everyone else. Ladynoir's relationship is directly tied to their partnership, and their dynamic as partners is the basis for any future romantic relationship between them. Introducing such an inequality between them in their partnership does affect their ability to be able to get together, and not in a good way.

This isn't a bad plot point. I like Ladybug being the Guardian, I like that they didn't just brush off the fact that there would be some changes in their dynamic. What I dislike is the way it was resolved, with Ladybug essentially saying that they would never be equals but she still likes him. A power imbalance does not a healthy relationship make. Ladynoir do not have a relationship where they are both completely aware of everything they should know. Chat Noir really cannot do anything in their dynamic, because Ladybug has all the control over everything. It's Ladybug controlling this information and Chat Noir accepting that he'll never be treated the way he wants to be treated, because he's been conditioned to believe his feelings don't matter. And she never did end up correcting this, and the conflict as it is ended with him forgiving her for everything even though she never apologized, and accepting that this is how it's going to be.

And it's not good. This isn't the Ladynoir I signed up for, honestly. I signed up for the Ladybug who accepted Chat Noir unconditionally and the Chat Noir who supported Ladybug through everything. I did not sign up for Ladybug trying to pull a Gabe and Chat Noir only being her emotional support who suppresses his own needs for her. The Ladynoir conflict and its less than satisfying resolution caused irreparable damage to the Ladynoir dynamic (it's irreparable because the writers don't see a problem with it and so they'll never fix it), and this has only continued into Season 5, which said "why fix it when I can make it worse."

[eightofpents]

A collection of rambling thoughts about London under the cut. spoilers, obv.

The idea that the butterfly's champions Never remember is straight up Canonically not true right? First thing the special says and it's straight bullshit.

The Gorilla grabs Bug Noire's hand to stop her from destroying the door. Can we talk about how stupid dangerous that was? If she doesn't react in time you Die. Bro.

Kagami definitely disapproves of the lying plan, but the "go away ladybug" line, doesn't strike me as angry at her (which is a read i've seen). It feels like Kagami giving her an out before she says something stupid and outs herself, to me.

"And you will need it." The fuck was that Tikki? Oh. Oh you little shit.

"There's no such thing as ghosts." Excuse me you have a fairy literally inside you right now but ghosts definitely DO NOT exist, sure.

Both of Lila's akumatizations being boy shaped could easily be a laudable commitment to disguise. Certainly she's known to be good at it. But. Do you think she has Gender? (also, it was ridiculous (utterly ridiculous) when they tried to play off Kagami's gender as a big reveal. but this is worse. it'd be one thing to they/them akuma!Lila just because the audience knows. but 'Bug says he once and Bunnyx corrects her. they Always assume gender! sometimes incorrectly! (see Kagami) and they commit to it. (is this an english only problem??))

We all love Nathalie for waking up from dead and saying "Time to kill Gabriel again." But she knows she's only awake because he made the wish. She goes down there, crossbow in hand, expecting to find Gabriel And Emilie. (i don't think she coulda killed him in front of her.)

"The light is already on. They were always here." There is only one timeline forever. But then what the hell is Bunnyx's job. Timetagger, yes. A villain gets timeywimey powers, gotta stop em, a reasonable use of time police. "Marinette you made a wrong decision for the timeline (what? how?) and now you gotta stop Chat from blowing up." Stupid. The elder buns knew this was coming. But they still fade. This show has a fixed timeline. But parts of it explicitly involve risking the timeline itself and pretending there's a world where they might lose? Astruc get your shit together.

Using papillon to refer to the new unnamed butterfly holder makes sense. Translating that as Hawk Moth does not.

Marinette: Should I lie to Adrien about his dad? Everyone else: Definitely not. But you're Ladybug and his girlfriend so we trust your decision. (what?) Marinette: Got it. Time to lie.

Calling the lucky charm to get untangled is fucking great. (i'm never gonna be over this actually.)

Completely in love with the London fight. A portal fight is always sick. And the fact that it's Bunnyx in control of the portals, not Chronobug? the team work! And I'm, like, distractingly into the song in the back half. The bug's out here sayin' all this cool shit and I can't hear her cause my brain is Locked In on the music. (and i am not known to notice a soundtrack)

Lila has never interested me. I Love Chloé, and Gabriel and Nathalie are the loves of my life, but Lila's villainy just doesn't do anything for me. (Maybe if she were allowed to be a person, I guess.) But. If Lila's willing to get Fucky with it, poke around with the rules of the miraculous. I think I can get behind her. (a villain with more cunning than gabriel will be fun. the butterfly is immensely powerful and he was too dumb to use it well <3)

[darkwitch1999]

@darkwitch1999, I got a question. It’s a little bit of Marinette salt, but what was Noelle and Devin’s worst experience with Marinette/Ladybug?

Well, @princessbutterflysposts. In an alternate reality where Marinette/Ladybug is an even worse bitch than Chloe, Lila, or even the Parisian Mean Girls quartet, I can imagine any one of these scenarios happening that would cause Noelle and Devin to hold a grudge.

Devin Nolan

During the first year of junior high, Marinette almost turned him into a social pariah just because he comes from a wealthy family and she saw him talking to Chloe ONE TIME! Apparently having money and telling Chloe to "fuck off" meant that he was another spoiled rich brat according to Marinette's perspective.

Fortunately, it didn't take long for Devin to convince everyone that he was nothing at all like Chloe. Though Marinette just switched tactics and used his cold, aloof personality as an excuse.

Ignores Devin's intense fear of being touched. She claims that Devin is just being "angsty" and "overdramatic" and doesn't take his phobia seriously.

Whenever Devin shoves her off or hits her whenever she touches him, she plays the victim card, making it seem as if Devin was a jerk despite her being the one clearly in the wrong.

Marinette mocked Devin's psychological fixation on being perfect when she found Devin having a panic attack in an isolated area of the school after he had gotten a 99% on a test. Didn't even stop to consider that as a red flag of psychological trauma/abuse. Again, claiming that he was being "overdramatic".

Ladybug tried to recruit him into becoming a superhero when someone he was close to got akumatized, but when Devin refused because he wasn't interested or comfortable with becoming a superhero, Ladybug had the audacity to call him "selfish".

Devin eventually gave in when Ladybug wouldn't stop pestering/gaslighting him for his help. Jokes on Ladybug, when Devin saw an opportunity to talk the akuma down, he de-transformed right in front of the akuma and revealed himself. He had to endure a harsh lecture from Ladybug about how what he did was "dangerous" and that she could never trust him with a miraculous again.

Devin wasn't even fazed by Ladybug's rant. The whole time she's lecturing him he is all like ("Yeah, don't ask me to do this shit again!").

Noelle Odeja

She's best friends with Lila....need I say more? Well, alright then.

Noelle played a horror-themed practical joke on Marinette on Halloween by putting fake dismembered body parts in her locker. Immediately, Marinette made it seem like she was being "victimized all over again" and compared the prank to the ones that Chloe and Kim played on her last year despite Noelle's joke being tame compared to what those two pulled.

Marinette's "Liars and Cheaters are losers" mentality has made her unsympathetic to Noelle's family problems. Thinking that Noelle's father is a horrible person for having an affair when she doesn't know how abusive Noelle's mother is towards her husband.

Every time Noelle brings up her parents arguing at home again, the first thing that comes out of Marinette's mouth is "What did your Dad do this time?".

The scar near Ronan's eye? "He probably deserved it!" Bitch, the woman blinded him just because he was defending his son from his transphobic mother!

Noelle wore a dress to school on the ONE day a year she wears a skirt or dress (Picture Day) and Marinette won't stop telling her how she looks "better" or "prettier" in dresses and that she should wear them all the time, ignoring the fact that Noelle expressed her distaste for wearing dresses and skirts.

Since Ronan and Gabriel Agreste are old friends and Ronan does photography work for him sometimes, Marinette is always trying to exploit this to her favor by trying to convince Noelle to help her with the "Adrinette" plans. ("Uh, hell no.")

Noelle's brother, Michael, offers free nail paintings to Noelle and her friends. Naturally, Marinette is not on the friends list and thus does not get the privilege of having awesome nail polish art done on her nails like everyone else.

In retaliation, Marinette called in a fake anonymous tip to the police that Michael was in possession of illegal drugs. No surprise that the police didn't find anything but because the studio that Michael worked at knows about his history of substance abuse, he had to pass a drug test to avoid getting fired.

Though Noelle couldn't prove it, something just kept nagging at her that Marinette was responsible for the bogus report.

Ronan had gotten akumatized after having a horrible fight with his wife. Noelle was present when her father got de-akumatized and she had to listen to Ladybug give her father a speech about "forgiveness" and that he should apologize to his wife. Noelle had to summon every ounce of restraint that she had to not punch Paris's "beloved superheroine" in public.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

If there was a cult club out there that was all about hating Marinette, I bet that these two would join in a heartbeat.

[foxwitchaine]

Question

Which characters from other media, do you think is a better version of miraculous ladybug characters?

I'm gonna take this question with a huge pile of salt. Because there's more than one show that does this concept better than what MLB does. That also includes how they handle the cast. I'm also gonna sound like a broken record with the upcoming "buckle up", but buckle up and hold on tight, everyone. It's gonna be a rollercoaster.

1.) Mr. Freeze

I know for sure I'm cheating just by mentioning him, but Mr. Freeze is what Gabriel Agreste should have been in regards to his quest for Emilie. Mr. Freeze isn't just a sad man mourning for his wife. He is broken. Shattered. Screwed over by people higher on the corporate ladder than himself (doesn't that sound familiar). Thing is, Mr. Freeze's story resonates with people and is part of the reason why he is still talked about today. He's also shown a kinder side, like the time he made it snow during Christmas in one issue of The Batman Adventures comics. All for the simple reason his late wife would have been sad if there had been no snow that year.

His demise in Batman Beyond left many viewers heartbroken, as we're left wondering what could have been.

Gabriel Agreste, on the other hand, is utterly and thoroughly selfish and thinks of no one but himself. This is best seen in how he treats his son throughout the show. Disregarding Season 5 (I have no idea how they thought they could pull it off), Gabriel has not shown one ounce of humanity. Not towards Nathalie, not towards Adrien, not even towards his wife, who he supposedly loves. Other than the show telling us how much he loved her (this is a recurring problem with MLB's writing), we never would have known.

Gabriel's death in Season 5, as a result, is much less impactful than Mr. Freeze's death in Batman Beyond.

2.) Madoka Kaname

Now this is a more recent show that I still think holds up. For those not in the know, Puella Magi Madoka Magica is a 12-episode anime series that aired in 2011 and, for lack of a better word, changed the game in magical girl anime. While one could argue that it tears down rather than celebrates women in power (as magical girl shows are supposed to do, Astruc), and it's not the most original concept (what is, nowadays), one thing most can agree on is the character writing, especially for Madoka.

Madoka, just like Marinette, is a selfless sweetheart who performs the ultimate sacrifice for the greater good. What separates her from Marinette, tellingly enough, is how her sacrifice is written. Throughout the anime, Madoka watches helplessly from the sidelines as her best friend Sayaka sacrifices herself for a boy. And then Sayaka gradually loses herself as the truth about magical girls comes to light. We aren't just told how Madoka feels about it. We see and feel it ourselves. I could write an essay on how well-written Sayaka's tragedy is, but that's beside the point. The point is, Madoka chose the sacrifice rather than having it forced on her by the writers.

Sound familiar?

It should.

Gen Urobuchi, despite his reputation, took the time to respect Madoka's agency as a character. Thomas Astruc tears down Marinette every chance he gets. You can't get more telling than this.

3.) Prince Zuko

You're all probably gonna get tired of hearing me talk about Avatar: The Last Airbender. But then again, I'm pretty sure every ATLA fan has heard that in the years since the original show ended. I've mentioned him before when talking about Chloe's botched redemption, but I feel this is the perfect place to expand and discuss more.

Prince Zuko is what Chloe Bourgeouis should have been in the show. And no, his redemption didn't come out of nowhere. It was consistently foreshadowed throughout the show all the way from the very first episode. This is an essay all in itself, so I'll refrain from diving into detail. But the fact of the matter remains that Zuko is the gold standard for writing a villain redemption. I could point out Darth Vader as another example of a villain redemption. But where he had to die to redeem himself, Zuko didn't.

Zuko also had a better-written backstory that explained (not excused, there's a difference) his behavior at the start of the show. I can't claim to know what the MLB writers had in mind when writing Chloe, but I'm pretty sure Audrey Bourgeois was supposed to be the Ozai figure in Chloe's backstory. Which leads me to my next point:

Zuko wasn't forgiven right away.

Yes. You heard that right.

Zuko had to work to be forgiven by the people he had wronged. And guess what? He failed. If anyone remembers when Azula critically injured Aang and Zuko betrayed Iroh to the Fire Nation, you'll all know what I'm talking about.

Zuko fell during his redemption arc. But he got back up again. And he apologized — genuinely apologized — to the man he betrayed.

4.) Odd Della Robbia

Code Lyoko is a relic from the early 2000s eras of cartoons. And boy, could I write essay after essay on this show. But since we're talking about characters and such, we'll be focusing on this lovable jokester from the show.

Odd Della Robbia is what Chat Noir should have been if he had been in the hands of competent writers. Odd isn't just the perpetually hungry jokester of the group who chased the first pretty girl who caught his attention. He pulled his weight in the battles against the malevolent AI X.A.N.A. Be it through helping Aelita reach the Towers, fighting Specters in the real world, heck even fending off Sissi during her worst moments. Perhaps even more damning is how Odd, despite his less pleasant actions and habits, was more of a true friend to his group than Chat Noir is to Ladybug.

Yes, writers. You can write a jokester character beyond what comes from his mouth.

No, this doesn't mean you can let them harass everyone they come across.

Perhaps, I'm gonna say this a lot, even more damning is how Odd responds to the rejections from the various pretty girls he chases. He actually takes no for an answer. Shocking, isn't it. He chases a skirt, they say no, he moves on. And no, this isn't portrayed as romantic or heroic. It's portrayed just as it is. A hormonal teenage boy being prone to doing stupid things.

What teenager hasn't done something stupid thanks to their hormones?

5.) Susan Ashworth

(Content Warning: mature themes such as suicidal depression)

I'm venturing into mature video games here, admittedly. I couldn't quite find one from my childhood that stood out, so I browsed through some game playthroughs I watched years ago. Ultimately, I settled on Susan Ashworth from the 2012 game The Cat Lady. Astruc being a man shouldn't be an excuse for him writing Marinette and other female characters so poorly. Why? Because Susan Ashworth, and by extension the game she is from, was written by a man.

Funny. I know.

What's even more amazing is how the developer Remigiusz Michalski, who publishes his games under the label Harvester Games, tackled such serious topics such as depression and suicide. No, he didn't use them for shock value, as that's very commonly done very tactlessly. He handled them with maturity and grace. Susan isn't defined by her depression even though she successfully committed suicide in the opening of the game. She has moments of humor and snark, like in the scene where Mitzi is showing her how to use social media. It also helps that Michalski... actually knows what he's talking about, as it's stated in interviews that he worked as a nurse before he created the first game Downfall in 2009.

I can't stress enough the importance of research before writing. Astruc clearly has a lot of ideas he wants to shove into Miraculous Ladybug, but they all fall flat due to a glaring lack of research and preparation. I'm not saying go do gruesome things for your craft and stick to "write what you know". I'm saying know what you're getting into before you dive in. One glaring example I think everyone can agree was poorly handled was Qilin, thanks to plot with the racist ticket inspector.

Michalski clearly knew what he was doing when he wrote Susan's story. Astruc continues to flail in his attempts to keep Miraculous Ladybug relevant.

Honorable Mentions:

Ratchet and Clank, Jak and Daxter - This is how you write snarky hero and sidekick duos

Jerry, from Totally Spies - Come on. You all knew as soon as I mentioned Code Lyoko that this guy would come up

Mandy, also from Totally Spies - She's very entertaining despite being the high school queen bee archetype. It also helps that she consistently faced punishment for her actions

Sissi Delmas, from Code Lyoko - I was gonna use her in place of Zuko just for the fact she showed other traits, such as her protectiveness of Milly during the zombie episode

Uncle Iroh - Do I even need to say it out loud?

KOS-MOS, from the Xenosaga trilogy - She's an excellent example of how to slowly unveil a character throughout the story

Tidus and Yuna, from Final Fantasy X - A really good example of how to write a romance into the story without dragging the plot down

Fiona Belli, from Haunting Ground - A bit polarizing, I know, but Fiona's friendship with Hewie is so heartwarming and grounding. Basically what Chat Noir should have also been to Ladybug

[immaturityofthomasastruc]

IOTA Reviews: Intuition

Well, we've already come up with two excuses as to why Gabriel can't use the most overpowered Miraculous in the show to just get what he wants. With the Rabbit Miraculous, Gabriel was too stupid to use it properly in “Evolution”, and with the Rooster Miraculous, the writers just changed the rules to fit the plot in “Destruction”. Taking those two episodes into consideration, why don't we use a combination of both to explain why Gabriel can't just use the Snake Miraculous to figure out a way to beat Ladybug and Cat Noir?

Let's get into the fifteenth episode of Miraculous Ladybug's fifth season: Intuition

We get right into the meat of things with a montage of several past Akuma fights this season, giving more context to the events of “Elation”, “Derision”, and “Passion”. We see in those episodes, Monarch attempted to use the Snake Miraculous' Second Chance, a power that lets him rewind time as many times as he wants as long as its in a certain time frame. While he tried to give his Akumas advice to stop Ladybug, each one failed miserably.

Why can't Monarch use Second Chance to help his Akumas avoid Ladybug and Cat Noir's attacks? He tried that with Glaciator in “Elation”, and it didn't work because Ladybug got a different Lucky Charm to defeat him with instead.

Why can't Monarch use Second Chance to stop Ladybug from using her Lucky Charm in the first place by destroying her yo-yo? He tried that with Dark Humor in “Derision”, and it didn't work because Ladybug just detransformed and transformed again so she got her Lucky Charm anyway?

Why can't Monarch use Second Chance to corner Ladybug and stop her from fighting altogether? He tried that with Safari in “Passion”, and it didn't work because Cat Noir saved her before the two swapped Miraculous.

All in all, this is actually a pretty good scene, and one of the best moments of the season. It adds rewatch value to earlier episodes and answers questions viewers may have about any ways to stop Ladybug from winning. Granted, I still have a few problems with it. The fact that the Lucky Charm will always adapt to whatever plan Monarch throws at Ladybug kind of takes away some of the tension this season. Okay, we know that Ladybug has to win every episode, but this montage really illustrates that Monarch isn't that threatening of a villain even though he has unlimited chances now.

But those are minor complaints compared to the biggest problem I have with the episode: The way they change the rules of the Snake Miraculous.

Gabriel: Every time I use Second Chance, time rewinds for Ladybug, Cat Noir and the rest of the world, but not for me. I remember every one of those attempts... and so does my body.

Uh... since when? That was never established to be a drawback to the Snake Miraculous. The rules for Second Chance are simple: Activate the power, keep track of time, rewind back time whenever something goes wrong, rinse and repeat. How is Gabriel's Cataclysm wound getting worse if time keeps being rewound? If Gabriel's body “remembers” events that happened as if it was aging, shouldn't he be at least a few years older physically? Hell, during “Desperada”, the very first episode to feature the Snake Miraculous, Adrien used Second Chance 25,913 times, and he didn't even get a little peach fuzz on his face by the end of it, to say nothing about him getting thrown into space without dying in “Miracle Queen”. Maybe this could have worked if they better explained what the Cataclysm wound is doing to Gabriel other than the fact that it's vaguely killing him, like if it's the reason why Second Chance isn't working like it usually does. But no, this is how Second Chance works now, because just like with the Rooster Miraculous, the writers need to arbitrarily change their own rules to fit the story.

But either way, Gabriel's Cataclysm wound is getting worse the more he uses Second Chance, and his own paranoia is preventing him from giving one of his Akumas the power instead. According to Nathalie (who once again nags Gabriel for being reckless while ignoring why she's bedridden in the first place), the wound has started to affect Gabriel's heart, and he may have weeks left to live. Damn, if only he didn't willingly let himself get Cataclysmed instead of just throwing in the towel during “Destruction”.

Gabriel tries to talk with Adrien to get an idea of who can take him in when he dies, but he's interrupted by a call from Marinette. Gabriel tries to make some pancakes, but he collapses in front of Adrien, claiming he just got distracted.

Getting distracted looks the same as having a heart attack, right?

Marinette and Adrien talked about an experimental space jet made by Tomoe's company which will be piloted by Claudie, Max's mom. Gabriel, after once again talking to Emilie's body, transforms into Monarch and even though he just learned that using Second Chance will only bring him closer to death's door, he decides to use Second Chance three times to get the secret code that will let him control the jet. Sure, Tomoe already knows he's Monarch and is part of the reason he can even use Second Chance right now, but I'm sure shaving a few days off what little time you have left was totally worth it for whatever reason you thought this was a good idea.

In Marinette and Adrien's class, they're talking with Claudie about the jet, and after we learn that Max decided to make the same tech he used to create his robot friend Markov free on the internet, we get an unfunny scene about Kim asking if there are pools on Mars. Because it's bad enough that his character was assassinated last episode, but now I guess Kim's only character trait is that he likes swimming. The space jet test is a success, but that's when Monarch uses Second Chance so he can sabotage it... even though he already had the access codes and didn't need to wait. You're really thinking about the best ways to use Second Chance, aren't you, Monarch?

Monarch disables the sensors of the jet's AI, A.D.A., so she assumes that Claudie was lost and the test was a failure, deciding to fly off into space with Claudie inside. After loading up with the powers of the Horse, Fox, Turtle, Goat in addition to the already active Snake, Monarch starts his plan. Monarch uses the Goat Miraculous' Genesis to create a giant meteorite that can possibly destroy the Earth before using the Fox Miraculous' Mirage to create an illusion of himself so he can make his announcement to Ladybug.

Monarch: Ladybug! Cat Noir! You're going to have to choose: will you stop this huge meteorite threatening the people of Paris or rescue Claudie Kante trapped inside her out of control space jet? Of course, you could also choose to give me your Miraculous and save everyone by letting me help you.

Hmm, the entire city of Paris or one person in space? Tough choice...

In all seriousness, this is a good plan, as it capitalizes on Ladybug's need to save everyone, especially with Monarch offering to end his threat if Ladybug and Cat Noir give up.

After Adrien escorts Marinette to the nurse's office as part of her excuse, the two transform into Cat Noir and Ladybug respectively, and immediately transform into their space forms, Astro Cat and Cosmobug. The two split up, so Cosmobug can deal with the jet and Astro Cat can stop the meteorite. This is all part of Monarch's plan, as he heads back to his lair and akumatizes A.D.A. into Bugfighter, with Claudie still trapped inside.

Bugfighter is basically a Transformer, and that is one of the coolest things to ever come out of this show. Sure, her only power other than being a giant robot is that she has a laser cannon, and she doesn't get a Miraculous power thanks to having no Alliance ring, but who cares? She's a Transformer! How awesome is that?!

Bugfighter destroys Cosmobug's yo-yo before she can use her Lucky Charm, and right after Astro Cat uses his Cataclysm to destroy the meteorite, Monarch tries to trap him using the Turtle Miraculous' Shelter, but misses. Monarch uses Second Chance to repeat the whole process over again, and succeeds in trapping Astro Cat. He prepares to steal Astro Cat's Miraculous by sticking his hand through a Voyage portal, only for Astro Cat to notice Second Chance is active and forcibly activates it again... even though he could have just taken the rings off Monarch's hand since he had the chance to earlier. Monarch then decides to use the Bee Miraculous' Venom to stun Astro Cat the next chance he has.

As Monarch prepares to get Astro Cat's Miraculous, Cosmobug tells Claudie to smash the windshield of the jet that is now Bugfighter, and after realizing Monarch tampered with her systems so she can't detect Claudie, Bugfighter rejects the Akuma. Monarch uses Second Chance several times to find a way to stop Cosmobug and Astro Cat, only for Bugfighter to keep rejecting the Akuma before his body finally collapses and he decides to call it a day, using Second Chance one more time so he never utilized his plan at all. Because I guess he couldn't just... use Voyage again to just take Claudie out of the equation entirely?

Gabriel decides that since he probably doesn't have a lot of time left to live, he decides to finally be a decent parent to Adrien and start spending more time with him... At least, for this episode, anyway. Nathalie once again nags Gabriel for being reckless and confirms that all Gabriel did was accelerate the damage of the Cataclysm wound, yet still doesn't mention that Gabriel got himself Cataclysmed. The episode ends with Ladybug and Cat Noir wondering why Monarch never uses Second Chance... when they of all people should know that they could never tell if Second Chance is being used or not.

While I had some problems with the changes to the Snake Miraculous, this episode was honestly pretty good. I like how the focus is more on Gabriel than Marinette and Adrien, showing more insight to how he operates as Monarch. The plan he came up was pretty unique, and for the most part, he actually tried to make up for any flaws in it. Marinette and Adrien, while they only had like two scenes together, were pretty cute, and it's nice to see them growing more comfortable around each other. Other than the fact that they never explain why Monarch can't use Voyage to take Claudie out of the jet when he can use it multiple times (and his poor use of the Snake Miraculous with Tomoe), the only real problem I have is the way they changed the rules of the Snake Miraculous to fit the story. Like with the Rooster, this blatantly contradicts earlier episodes and is only there to explain why Gabriel can't use it to win.

But putting that aside, it's a simple episode, but it honestly works in my opinion. Right now, it's my favorite so far this season.

THE BIGGEST IDIOT OF THE EPISODE IS... GABRIEL

While Adrien was close to getting it thanks to blowing a chance to get some of Monarch's Miraculous, Gabriel still takes home the medal this time. Thanks to Second Chance, Gabriel had a lot of chances to capitalize on his mistakes as long as his body could take it, so naturally, he kept using Second Chance just to talk to one of his allies, and kept screwing up his chance to get Ladybug and Cat Noir's Miraculous, even when the odds were stacked in his favor, and that all contributed to his impending death that was brought on because he made the wise choice to Cataclysm himself in an earlier episode.

[marinettesaltprompts]

Prompt by @kawaiichibiart Here's a prompt based off my favorite fanfics to read, groupchats

Marinette Salt, canon divergence:

It starts off simple, Ladybug makes a groupchat (gc for short; also this won't be brought up, but the gc does work on their civilian phones as well) for her, Chat Noir, Rena Rouge, Carapace and Queen Bee. They use the gc to talk, keeping things vague when it's about their civilian life, and to alert each other of akuma attacks.

It's all fun and games until Ladybug starts training to be the Guardian. She starts to keep more secrets and Chat Noir doesn't like being left in the dark for no reason and wants to know why she's being more secretive. Ultimately, this divides the team and as people join, they're either on Ladybug's side or they aren't.

The majority of them side with Ladybug.

The one's who don't, don't side with Chat Noir, but decide to remain neutral.

As time passes, the team gets closer and they have a system worked out.

And then Miracle Queen happens. Chloe is kicked out of the gc. Ladybug becomes the Guardian and digs her heels in deeper about the secrets she's keeping.

She becomes more snappish at everyone, yelling at them for goofing off in the chat, making the decision that the chat is for professional use only now. They had their fun, it was time to be serious. If they had a problem, she'll fire them the same way she did Chloe.

Whenever someone brings up the fact she looks more tired, more stressed, she'll retort that she'd be less tired and stressed if they were actually good teammates.

Eventually, one of them, probably Rena, probably Pegasus, makes a new gc for everyone but Ladybug. And, without a feeling of remorse, the first thing Chat Noir says is "You know, I can see why we should let Ladybug keep all those secrets, it's not like not sharing them is hurting anyone, oh wait!! 😒"

Yeah...they deserved that.

They use the second chat to have fun, still keeping things vague about their secret IDs, and to talk about how to help Ladybug.

But no matter what they do, Ladybug won't budge. The team that had once been nearly fully on her side, was now pulling away from her. She wasn't the same Ladybug. She was stricter. She held team meetings where all she did was reprimand them for not following her plans.

And anytime they bring up that maybe should tell someone at least some of the secrets she's holding, because clearly since she began keeping them she's become more and more irritated, she'll just tell them to mind their business and holds their miraculous against them, reminding them she can take it away whenever she wanted.

So, when the day comes she loses all but hers and Chat Noir's miraculous, none of them feel bad for her.

Because I don't go fully into what diverges from canon above:

• Marinette doesn't tell Alya she's Ladybug, and thus doesn't make her a permanent holder.

• She still gives Alya her miraculous when she has to leave for a while, but she ends up doing it by pulling Alya away while she's on her way to the park. In short, she throws the responsibility into Alya's hands.

• Adrien does quit temporarily, becoming Catwalker, before going back to being Chat Noir. Because he and all the temps. are repairing their bond after what had happened in the first gc, he does tell them why he quit as best as he can (feeling like he wasn't seen as Ladybug's equal, the secrets, wondering if he even had a place on the team anymore, what happened on the roof, etc.).

• Everyone definitely notices when Ladybug gives Flairmidable her full attention. And it looks so familiar to them, they just can't tell how or why.

• Unlike at the end of S4, Chat Noir isn't as forgiving with Ladybug. He'll still help her, but he doesn't forgive her.

• This part is something I'm not sure I want to happen, but I'm including it anyways incase someone wants to make it happen: she does end up losing her miraculous. Su Han finds out what happened and sees her unfit to be Ladybug or the Guardian, so he takes her miraculous (and jsyk, she doesn't lose her memories. She didn't quit or name someone else as Guardian, she was fired, so her memories are still there)

• while the first chat dies down, the second, surprisingly, is still up and going. They're not going to question it, logic left a long time ago. They're just happy they can still talk to each other.

[flightfoot]

Ur a pretty fair voice in my opinion when it comes to the whole mess in miraculous. Would you mind telling me what your favorite things are about Marinettes appreciation of Chat Noir in Canon? Not fanon, CANON.

I'm still grieving LadyNoir and recently I'm feelin very down in life in general and now I don't have my comfort show and ship anymore the way I used to love them for.

The way Marinette treats Chat Noir in and outta her transformation never stops hurting my poor broken LadyNoir heart n as much as I wished I could love the potential of her love for him as I once did, it just feels so paper thin and shallow to me now after everythin this show did.

The show is clearly trying to have her feelings for him be smth now, but for me it never seems to go beyond her infamous vague heart eyes the show likes to hav her throw around for damage control & surface level appreciation of his presence when she has to. But if you'd tell me that she still has no real feelings for him, I would believe u, cause he as a person doesn't truly matter at any given moment her words have to MEAN something more than a vague "<3" she's never asked to back up with anything worthwhile (srry, I know you've heard that complaint a million times before. It's at least comforting to know that others feel the same)

Wasn even her taking any interest in Chat for his person in the first quarter of season 5 only caused by Marinette wantin to proof Alya wrong and that her love for him instead of Adrien is real and valid? That's so disheartening...

Going through the tags isnt helping either, cuz most i find it is either much more fanon than Canon, or it's in line with Chat prrty much being her servant now instead of her finally giving care back

Idk, I hope I'm not bein too much of a downer. So imma get back to my question now. Maybe u can help me see Canon in better light again.

Could you tell me what you like most bout Marinettes and Ladybug's connection with Chat Noir? Things she does for him, what she values in him and so on and so forth?

I like the times we see her getting upset when Chat's hurt, or when she comforts him when he's clearly not feeling good. I adored how angry and upset she got in Timebreaker when Chat was "killed" in front of her for the first time, how she suddenly became more vicious. She doesn't want to lose him.

Or like, for times when she's comforted Chat, I adore how calmly and patiently she spoke to Chat in Reverser, after his courage was taken away, how she gently coaxed him where he needed to go. I took great solace in that, the first time I rewatched that episode, since I'd been exposed to a lot of Saltinette at the time, and I needed the reminder that Marinette does, in fact, care about people, even when it's inconvenient.

While I wish that Marinette had really thought through Chat's potential reaction to someone new showing up with her Miraculous without warning, I DID love that Marinette had this long list of protips. I especially liked this one:

Marinette: (v.o) Protip 33: When Cat Noir tells a joke, try to laugh at it even if it isn't funny. It makes him happy.

Even in episodes where I have a problem with the way Marinette conceives of Chat Noir, I generally still like elements of it. Like even in Ephemeral, while I think it was very, very wrong for her to try to trick Chat the way she did, she WAS doing it because she didn't want to risk Su-Han taking Chat's Miraculous from him. Or in Kuro Neko, when she didn't want to give the miraculous back to Plagg to give to Chat Noir, because she was afraid they'd end up back in this same situation, and she didn't want to keep hurting him.

At her core, Marinette cares about Chat's feelings and wants him to feel good, to be happy. The issue comes from her not seeing things from his perspective, from being terrible at reading him. Marinette has a lot of compassion towards Chat Noir, she just doesn't understand him.

[miraculouslbcnreactions]

I will forever hold the opinion that Chat Blanc should’ve been a nightmare, hallucination, or otherwise hypothetical/not real scenario rather than a real event.

I can get behind something happening that causes a rift between Ladybug and Chat Noir, these kind of character plots can be interesting if done right, but they never should’ve given a legitimate reason that Adrien shouldn’t wield the power of Destruction or that Ladybug can’t actually trust him with information (or at all). Because the potential of Chat Noir actually becoming Blanc because he knows her identity (while not the full reason, that’s the big one to Ladybug) makes him way too big of a risk to keep on the team, and therefore almost justifies her distancing him (narratively at least, I don’t actually think that was the right move, even in this context, kinda like how she didn’t tell Chloe she couldn’t be Queen Bee anymore right away).

I will never get why the writers are so intent on making one of their main heroes seem unfit for the job. If he’s not fit for it, then he never should’ve been a hero in the first place! And yet that’s somehow not the story they’re trying to tell here? Oh, he is a good fit for the Miraculous? Then stop trying to make him incompetent or dangerous!!!

I actually don't mind Chat Blanc being a thing. I even have an ideal version of it that I'd love to see play out with pretty visuals for all the big dramatic scenes.

The idea that Chat Noir can be akumatized doesn't make him a bad hero because the message should be that everyone is capable of being akumatized. Rena Rouge, Queen Bee, and Carapace were all akumatized during the season two final, but they kept their roles on the team. I have no problem with that. Marinette has almost been akumatized multiple times and she never considered giving up her miraculous, nor should she. Everyone is going to have dark moments. It's not some massive failing.

The problems with Chat Blanc are:

The way time travel is used, making Bunnyx god

Adrien being able to lose while Marinette is there, which should never happen in a power of love show

The fact that the writers are using Chat Blanc to argue that Adrien can't be trusted with the truth

The fact that the writers present Chat Blanc as Marinette's failing/an identity reveal problem

I think the first two issues are self explanatory, so let's focus on the final two as they're insane writing choices.

Adrien learning the truth during a fight with his father is a great setup for him being akumatized! I don't have any issues with it. Remove Marinette from the scene and Adrien going full Chat Blanc is fine by me! The problem is that this isn't being presented as a warning that Adrien needs to learn the truth outside of the final battle (reasonable and what I thought this episode was doing at first). It's being presented as an argument that Adrien can never be told the truth because he's just too weak and unstable to handle the truth (asinine). If that's really what they're going for, and it does seem to be, then Adrien is completely unqualified to be a hero.

Similarly, past Marinette being the one to stop Chat Blanc doesn't bother me. The problem is that adult Bunnyx does nothing to contradict Marinette's conclusion that this means that Chat Noir can never be told the truth. That's not the right takeaway here, but Bunnyx doesn't contradict it. She actually goes so far as to throw Alya under the bus. Rude, Alix! Rude. And really weird since Marinette will willingly tell Alya her secret identity within a few episodes, which Alix should know? Alix's knowledge of the future is really confusing.

Bunnyx: Do you know how Cat Noir found out about your secret identity? Ladybug: I think so. When I went into Adrien's house as Ladybug, he probably saw me. He figured out that Ladybug is Marinette because of the note written on the gift. But I'm not sure what happened next. Bunnyx: He probably told his friend Nino, who told Alya, who wrote about it on the Ladyblog. Ladybug: Mm.. They would never do that. But Adrien probably told someone, who told someone else, and so on, until it was all over the news! The best-kept secrets are the ones you never share.

That final line from Ladybug should have been met with Bunnyx saying something like,

"There are times when it's good to share a secret! This just happened to not be one of those times, but this outcome isn't guaranteed. It's just what happened in this specific scenario. Another time, not sharing could lead us here. Don't let fear of the future keep you from doing what logic says is right."

Something, anything, to imply that Marinette wasn't at fault and that secrets are complex things. Instead we get yet another wacky implication that an identity reveal will destroy Ladybug and Chat Noir, so they have to keep their secrets or give up their miraculous. Yay!

All that being said, my ideal Chat Blanc would not work in canon's padded-to-shit writing, so I do agree that it was a bad call. Chat Blanc only makes sense if the end goal is plot progression. Instead, it's used for plot stagnation and I hate it!

[ilikekidsshows]

I know you’re more of an “Adrien centered” criticism/defense blog but I am curious about your opinion on this.

What is your opinion on the “Chloe deserves/doesn’t deserve redemption” situation or the “Chloe wasn’t meant to be redeemed and there for what happened to her is fair game” stance?

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My thoughts on the Chloé situation are kinda complex. Back when the show only had three seasons, I did think Chloé’s character trajectory made sense. Sure, she’d saved people when she was acting as Queen Bee, but she still treated her classmates the same. In fact, she started treating Sabrina worse than before because she considered being anything other than Queen Bee hanging out with Ladybug was slumming it. For me, it really was a 50/50 on whether or not Chloé would be redeemed or fall into actual villainy.

Because, here’s how I saw it: I didn’t think Chloé was an actual villain-villain in seasons 1-3. She was Marinette’s school nemesis and a decidedly defanged one. Marinette was scared of her exactly once, in Origins, a flashback episode meant to showcase how much more confident being Ladybug has made Marinette that she views Chloé as small potatoes. The season 3 finale could have been the culmination of an arc where Marinette accidentally causes Chloé to become a villain and ally herself with Hawk Moth in the future.

And it would have been caused by Marinette, even if unintentionally. It would have shown how good intentions can have unforeseen consequences, especially when you don’t know what you’re helping someone with or what they want before you do so. Marinette doesn’t really understand what she’s trying to help people with whenever she does try to be helpful, because she assumes what they want and need instead of asking and listening (like in Reflekdoll, the latter part of Ikari Gozen and Quilt Trip). Many heroes create their own villains this way, and Marinette could have done so as well since she was the one to strengthen Chloé’s bond with the person who taught her to be an entitled bully and then she dragged her feet on whether or not she could use the Bee Miraculous.

The season 3 finale shows Chloé brought to a new low. The following New York Special gives us a glimpse of a Chloé who is withdrawn, like she’s reconsidering her life. This could have led to Chloé deciding that she would have revenge on Ladybug for leading her on and then dumping her (as a teammate). But, it could have also have led to Chloé realizing that, while Ladybug wasn’t her friend, Sabrina was, and she pushed the latter away in pursuit of being the Bee Miraculous holder. Chloé could have gained new insight that would have led her to start working on how she treats those closest to her, finally starting to treat her schoolmates with decency and, maybe, with time, kindness.

Then season 4 came along and all that foreshadowed introspection was dumped out the window in favor of having Chloé do cartoonishly stupid school antagonist character things. In season 4, where this kind of hijinks are so incredibly low-stakes that it’s both laughable to see, and laughable to realize the writers think this is good television.

I think the writers realized this too, because then comes season 5 with the retcon that, actually, Chloé is an evil mastermind who is so heinous that she orchestrated a traumatic event that led to Marintette’s character flaws and therefore Marinette should be forgiven for her flaws and Chloé blamed for them. Never mind the damage this episode does to Kim’s character, turning him from an oblivious to jock to a total creep, it also tries to convince us that Chloé is this big threat despite that it happened at least a year ago in-universe and that she had never done anything even close to this bad since. It just makes no sense when contrasting with the early seasons, where Marinette treats Kim as just one classmate among many and Chloé as a low-threat nuisance.

The problem was that they decided that they didn’t want Marinette to hold any responsibility for anything she does anymore. This is why they wrote the episode ‘Derision’, to absolve Marinette of all responsibility in her stalking of Adrien, even though them making it a serious trauma response instead of a cartoon-logic joke means that now she absolutely should take responsibility for her behavior and get therapy. Because they wanted to give Marinette a retroactive justification, the episode just doesn’t mesh with the rest of the show. But, like, the writing in Miraculous seasons 4-5 is so bad it’s of course never just about a single episode, it’s all about how the Miraculous writers don’t know how to build up arcs that then come to a logical conclusion, which is why all their story arcs’ endings fall flat and leave viewers thinking “where’s the rest of it?” when they’re not considered one of the worst finales for a show.

Basically, making Chloé a villain could have worked, but it would have required her getting built up into such a status. The Chloé of seasons 1-3 isn’t a monster, she’s a brat. But the writers didn’t want to do that work despite wanting that story, thinking some repetitive episodes of Chloé being a brat some more will accomplish the same thing. So, Chloé just keeps performing petty bullying until the writers think the viewers forgot that she’s like this because of her mother, who Marinette reunited her with, all the while pretending the woman who calls her by the wrong name to her face on purpose has done nothing wrong as a parent other than “leave”, before she randomly turns on Miss Bustier and starts working with Hawk Moth for supposedly no reason in Collusion.

And, like, the thing that really grinds my gears is that it worked. So many people forgot that Chloé’s bullying was modeled to her by her mother, who Marinette reunited her with. Marinette repeatedly tries to fix abused kids’ relationships to their parents with no regard for how that could harm them in the long run (Adrien, Chloé and Kagami). It’s a pattern, but the show thinks Marinette’s missteps shouldn’t be pointed out because she “had good intentions” when her intentions in the instances of The Bubbler, Style Queen and Ikari Gozen were nothing more than: “Well, my parents are great, so these kids are obviously safe with the parents I just saw make them miserable!” The accusing finger for Chloé’s behavior should be pointed at Audrey. Marinette being “triumphant” over Chloé because Chloé is now stuck with the abuser who made her is already iffy without the added grossness of Marinette being the one who reunited them in the first place.