#Ladynoir conflict

[theerurishipper]

Ladynoir and (In)Equality

For me personally, the most important thing in any relationship is that both partners are equals in that dynamic. I think that's a reasonable expectation to have. And Ladynoir did fulfill that requirement for me in the first 3 seasons. Even though Ladybug did most of the leadership stuff by making the plans and directing Chat Noir on what to do, it was understood that this was a mutual agreement. They both understood what they were good at, and their dynamic evolved accordingly. Chat Noir was content to follow her lead and Ladybug was content to make the plans and direct Chat Noir.

Season 2 saw the introduction of the inequality that shattered this balanced dynamic between the two, and quite frankly the later seasons only made it worse. It started in Syren, as we all know, where Chat Noir first expressed his displeasure at being left out of the loop when Ladybug was privy to important information that was being kept from him. Of course, Master Fu arrived to barely smooth things over before the issue was dropped for the season and never brought up again. Their dynamic remained as it was, but the cracks began to form here.

The introduction of Ladybug being the Guardian in Season 4 changed this established dynamic, obviously, and Ladybug began to give the Miraculous out to other holders. Keeping Chat Noir out of the loop began to become her MO, and she effectively replaced him with Rena Furtive in all but name. The central conflict of the season was the cracks forming in their relationship because of her new responsibilities and her secret keeping. And the resolution to this, as stated in Kuro Neko and Risk, is that even if he's no longer her partner, she still likes him best.

Now, the previous Ladynoir dynamic was one of equality, where they knew their roles and acted upon them. They were equals, and Ladybug's leadership in their pair was an informal one, one that was mutually agreed upon by them. The introduction of the Guardian role for Ladybug changes this from a mutually agreed upon dynamic to one where Ladybug is, for all intents and purposes, his boss. She is officially his leader, in the sense that if she so wished, he would be obliged to hand his Miraculous over to her. In the sense that she would be well within her rights to replace him if she so desired (which she does do). She is his superior, and he is no more important than the other temporary holders, with the sole exception that he holds his Miraculous permanently (which has now been exacerbated by the fact that all of them are permanent holders now).

Chat Noir received a demotion for no fault of his own, which he did not want, and someone else was promoted to replace him in the position he once occupied. Rena Furtive is Ladybug's special partner. Chat Noir is not Rena Furtive's equal, and he is definitely not Ladybug's equal.

This is not about a woman making more money than a man. She isn't just more successful than him, and this isn't about him being insecure about her being better than him. The problem is that Ladybug is Chat Noir's direct superior, and she has power over him. She has the power to call him when she needs him, and if not him, she'll get someone else. She has the resources to figure out his identity without him being none the wiser. She has the power to replace him if she wishes. Far be it from him to allow her to lead of his own accord, now he is obliged to follow her orders. She has the power to control what he knows and how he acts, and she has the power to keep vital information from him.

None of this is inherently "bad." But when you look at it from the context of them being on a path to a romantic relationship with each other, that's where the problems begin. Two people in a relationship should not have a dynamic where one has so much power over the other. Ladybug has so much power that she is able to slide a third teammate into their partnership and slowly push him away from his role at her side. She, quite unfortunately, can and has abused his trust because she had the resources to do so. The only opportunity he had in Season 4 to make his own choices that were not dictated by Ladybug's rules was when he quit. The final takeaway from this Ladynoir conflict is that Chat Noir is her favorite subordinate now (because Rena Furtive has replaced him), and just because they aren't equals anymore doesn't mean she doesn't want him around.

And, no, this was not corrected in Season 5. Season 5 was a return to their original dynamic, not because Ladybug and Chat Noir worked around this new shift in their relationship to find a way to overcome this new power imbalance. It's because Ladybug's power was forcibly taken away from her by a third party, and the only reason Chat Noir is her special partner again is because there is no one else left. But the end of Season 5 sees everyone come back, as permanent holders no less, and Chat Noir is once again demoted to his role as "just another holder like any other."

With the establishment of the Ladybug and the Black Cat Miraculous as two halves of a duo, equals in power, you'd expect them to be, well, equals. Me being upset about the inequality of these characters isn't with regards to screentime, or my wish for Adrien to be the main character or anything. My wish is for Adrien to be a character of his own. My wish is for the show to stop promoting such unhealthy dynamics as cute and fine. If they had simply made Adrien's role out to be the love interest, if they had just literally made him Ken who is content with just being Barbie's trophy boyfriend from the very beginning, if that was all his role has ever been and was meant to be from the start, I wouldn't be complaining so much. But the one they reduced into the role of Marinette's prize, the one over whom she has so much power, is the abuse victim whose arc is about self-actualization. And it paints a very disturbing picture. That far be it from Chat Noir to expect any kind of equal treatment from Ladybug, he's going to have put aside any discomforts or issues he has with their relationship to settle for being her favorite by virtue of nostalgia.

And it's just... bad, on a narrative level. Despite its ambitious introduction of so many plot points, the focus of this show has always been its romance. The main narrative goal of the series is for Ladybug and Chat Noir to get together. So, when your narrative hinges on these two characters getting together, and you decide to introduce such a power dynamic into the mix, saying "I still like you," isn't the fix that it's cracked up to be. If they are supposed to be the relationship around which the show is built, Chat Noir should be Ladybug's special partner, he should be her equal and not just another holder whom she likes better than everyone else. Ladynoir's relationship is directly tied to their partnership, and their dynamic as partners is the basis for any future romantic relationship between them. Introducing such an inequality between them in their partnership does affect their ability to be able to get together, and not in a good way.

This isn't a bad plot point. I like Ladybug being the Guardian, I like that they didn't just brush off the fact that there would be some changes in their dynamic. What I dislike is the way it was resolved, with Ladybug essentially saying that they would never be equals but she still likes him. A power imbalance does not a healthy relationship make. Ladynoir do not have a relationship where they are both completely aware of everything they should know. Chat Noir really cannot do anything in their dynamic, because Ladybug has all the control over everything. It's Ladybug controlling this information and Chat Noir accepting that he'll never be treated the way he wants to be treated, because he's been conditioned to believe his feelings don't matter. And she never did end up correcting this, and the conflict as it is ended with him forgiving her for everything even though she never apologized, and accepting that this is how it's going to be.

And it's not good. This isn't the Ladynoir I signed up for, honestly. I signed up for the Ladybug who accepted Chat Noir unconditionally and the Chat Noir who supported Ladybug through everything. I did not sign up for Ladybug trying to pull a Gabe and Chat Noir only being her emotional support who suppresses his own needs for her. The Ladynoir conflict and its less than satisfying resolution caused irreparable damage to the Ladynoir dynamic (it's irreparable because the writers don't see a problem with it and so they'll never fix it), and this has only continued into Season 5, which said "why fix it when I can make it worse."

[familyagrestefanblog]

You know what's so sad about how badly Ladynoir got nuked that it actually turns around to be funny again?

Not only did Marinette telling Chat Noir that she'll never abandon him loose all meaning in season 5 because she left after being told "no" by him once (and she already wanted to leave before Plagg initiated his plan:

I know, its almost like the show is going out of its way to nuke Ladynoir) and proceeded to not think about making sure it's at least Scarabella again who Chat Noir will be meeting after last episode to try and prevent the same "new Ladybug" disaster she said she was sorry for from happening again. And who has to tell him the bad news that this time Ladybug left for good and that it was him saying "no" that caused it.

So exactly all the problems with Hack-San again just for real and WORSE, and even the fear he was talking about at the end - that one day it wouldn't be her and he'll never see her again.

It is incredibly difficult for me to be upset with Adrien for leaving bc of all this. Even if I want to. Marinette's side is just so much worse again

But, no. That's not it!

Even the one and only tini-tiny thing she actually DID manage to remember him for while she threw the darkest red-alert situation at him in "Hack-San", it still ended up ringing pretty much hollow by the end of season 5.

I swear, not a single Ladynoir excuse for Marinette in "Hack-San" is in any way holding up. It's insane.

Cause not ONCE in all of season 4 and 5 does Marinette as Ladybug laugh at anything Chat Noir says. She straight up acknowledged it towards Alya that it makes him happy and she seriously never once does.

That is... genuinely sad. Not sad as in pathetic, just deeply saddening.

And even the few times when civilian Marinette laughs with Chat Noir, I can't remember it ever being at his jokes. It happens when other civilians are bothered by them in the cinema in "Glaciator 2" and in "Elation" when she's having fun at the date in general and later when Adrien tries to be silly while explaining something and then Marinette laughs at Chat being frustrated at himself for not being able to put what he wants to say into words.

But all of these cases are not her laughing at his jokes the way she literally said she knows makes him happy. So she's still not doing it.

Wait, no. When Marichat get the ice cream in "Elation". At least thats a moment where Marinette actively laughs at a joke Chat made. Although, she revealed in "Hack-San" that she would do so, too, even if she didn't think it's funny at all and that unfortunately does leave a very sour taste in my mouth:

Person B being the only one who genuinely laughs at person A's jokes is such a popular trope for a reason and it stings knowing that even that doesn't truly apply here.

The trope was ironically recycled into Adrien thinking Marinette's behavior is funny which he then in season 5 got shamed for by the narrative when he then found out that he was laughing at her trauma responses and he beats himself up for it (what a weird writing decision, honestly)

But Marinette as Ladybug for some reason just continued to be written to not laugh to make Chat Noir happy (even when she was oh so in love with him in the beginning of season 5) and that puts the genuineness of the rare times she does into question bc Marinette is apparently just willing to fake it every blue moon.

But I guess, credit where credit is due. She did indeed do the thing she said she knows makes Chat Noir happy ONE TIME in 52 episodes. Only as civilian, though. And mind you, she left the next episode and previously said that her laughing doesn't mean she actually thinks he's funny.

But one questionable time is better than non, right ?

[wield-the-mighty-pen]

Just remember that in every even season of Miraculous, there has been a Ladynoir conflict of some kind.

Season 2 had one because Ladybug was keeping the guardian and the knowledge of the Miraculous a secret. Season 4 had one because Ladybug was keeping secrets pertaining to her role as guardian and her confiding in Alya. 

Season 6 is coming, and there just happens to be a whole lot of information that Ladybug is not sharing with Chat Noir...

[reclamosmiraculersenspanish]

Zull memes: La página de Facebook obsesionada con Marinette Dupain-Cheng.

Me sigue sorprendiendo lo mucho que la odian. Sobre todo en grupos de Facebook en español. yo entendería que ya, les cayera mal, está bien. Pero literalmente hay una página de Facebook llamada Zull memes, que se dedica a tiempo completo a tirar hate.

Antes me molestaba, pero a veces decían cosas ciertas. Sin embrago, de un momento a otro, empezaron a exagerar cosas, cambiando guiones solo para "Menospreciar" al personaje.

Llegando al punto de compararla con Amber Heard, cuando estaba el tema del juicio de Jonny Depp, la misma Amber que se cagó en la cama de su novio. ¿Sí se dan cuenta que no es normal?

Y la gente puede decir, bueno, son solo memes. Pero no, tienen detrás a una bola de fans tóxicos, que menosprecian y encasillan a cualquier fan de Marinette.

Además, desinforman, por culpa de la influencia que tiene en la gente los memes, muchos hasta creen los guiones cambiados que a veces ponen.

Recientemente otra página publicó cosas similares a lo que se burlaba Zull memes, desde las cosas más normales, hasta las más exagerada. Pero en contra de Chloe, la adorada y justificada de la página. Y se ardieron sus seguidores.

Eso demuestra que son iguales de inmaduros que a los fans que tanto critican. Realmente Miraculous no debió volver tan conocida. Atrajeron a un montón de fans tóxicas e inmaduras.

[iwasbored777]

This made me remember Ladynoir conflict cuz just like here, Chat thought Ladybug is not his true friend because she didn't tell him everything that's bothering her but there was a lot of things bothering her and with so many problems she forgot his but she didn't hate him not for a second, just like here, but she made it seem like it and she felt really bad for it just like here because she hurt her friend unintentionally. It's not Marinette's fault, these kids are confused when it comes to friendship and she has too much on her shoulders for one tiny fragile person like her and she has to be mad and secretive sometimes but it doesn't mean that she doesn't love her friends. It's just that she has a custom to befriend kids who don't have experience in friendship but unlike Kagami here Chat didn't make it clear that this is bothering him and she didn't know why he was so mad all the time and thought he was ungrateful for everything she does for him and Paris and their relationship just got worse, not better like she and Kagami here. This show should be called Miraculous: Tales of Kids with Childhood Traumas.

[gameguy20100]

🔥LadyNoir's "conflict" in S4

It was a failure to communicate.

Demonising, either of them, is stupid.

[theerurishipper]

me waiting for adrien to be allowed to be anything other than ladybug's loyal dog

[theerurishipper]

This is just an unstructured, incoherent vent post, but I've seen a few posts recently about how Adrien would definitely forgive Marinette for keeping secrets from him because he loves her, or that he would blame himself for not noticing what was going on and not her. And those aren't wrong, per se, but this is what I mean by the show taking away Adrien's agency. Ultimately his choices are allowed only as far as they do not inconvenience Marinette or anyone else the narrative cares about, like Felix or Nathalie. Which is why Adrien is not allowed to grow, he is not allowed to prioritize his own feelings and emotional needs. Any wrong done to him is resolved by him putting aside his own feelings to forgive the people who wronged him. And yes, he has been taught that his feelings don't matter by Gabriel and that he should bend over to the whims of everybody around him. And that kind of makes it worse, how the effect of Gabriel's abuse is used to convenience everyone around him. I think it's gross.

Just look at the Ladynoir conflict from Season 4. Adrien brings up his grievances with Ladybug's treatment of him a few times, but ultimately, he ends up putting it aside to focus on her emotional needs when she is at her lowest. Kuro Neko gave us the message that it wasn't that Ladybug was treating Chat Noir unfairly, but that Chat Noir should stop expecting to be treated with respect and should stop having emotional needs. And at the end of Strikeback, nothing is resolved, Ladybug hasn't apologized to him or resolved to do better by him, but he still shows up to her side to comfort her. No, she didn't apologize to him. She admitted her mistakes but did little to correct them even after the fact. That whole arc ended with Chat Noir being treated poorly over and over, and yet coming back to Ladybug's side because he's such a good partner and he loves her so much.

And Adrien, a character who has been forced his whole life to bend to the whims of others to please them at his expense is doing the same thing to Ladybug. Adrien exhibiting this behavior is 100% a trauma response. Ladybug is supposed to be his escape from his abusive homelife. And yet, the show writes him falling back into his trauma responses with her (Kuro Neko) and does jack shit to portray it as a bad thing. And the Season 4 finale is once again Adrien putting aside his feelings and showing up to support her. Adrien's emotions are not validated, they are tossed aside. Ladybug admitted her mistakes as she did several times through Season 4, but she still did little to correct them. That admission in Strikeback doesn't do much, because we never see her do anything to fix her mistakes after that. What happened was that Chat Noir saw her in distress and decided his feelings were unimportant because she needed support.

This is not healthy. Adrien should not be invalidating his own feelings so that he can offer comfort to others. He shouldn't forget and forgive so quickly without the other person doing anything to correct their behavior towards him. Once again, this is how Gabriel has taught him to behave, to stop "being so emotional" and to conform to his expectations. And Adrien continuously downplays his own issues for others' sake. And obviously, we would understand that he can heal from this, that he can learn to take care of his own emotional needs first.

And quite frankly, all the posts about how we shouldn't want Adrien and Marinette to break up, or how we shouldn't be so hard on Marinette, or that she is just a child in tough situation, or that she is doing it out of love and that Adrien would forgive her kinda make my point. Because let's be real. What Marinette did is a serious breach of trust. I do not understand how anyone could forgive something like that quickly. And I understand why she did it. I don't think she is a bad person or anything like that. But it's still an awful thing to do. And frankly, I don't see how Adrien could just... instantaneously forgive her without invalidating and downplaying his own pain and hurt. If he did, I would seriously question his self-worth. And while I don't think Adrien would never forgive Marinette or that he would stop loving her, frankly, I would like to see more acknowledgement of his feelings and his emotional needs both from the fandom and the show. I would like to see that his feelings matter, that he is allowed to be angry and that he is allowed to hold people accountable and call them out. I would like for him to not forgive some people. I would like for him to require distance and space from them. That would be development for Adrien, to let himself be emotional and not feel the need to put his own needs aside for others.

But for Adrien to prioritize himself, it would mean acknowledging the harmful things characters like Marinette have done to him. And that can't happen, because all the purpose Adrien serves is as a plot device to connect Marinette to Gabriel, and actually having her be held accountable by the narrative for her choices is a big no no. Growth for Adrien would mean that he lets himself be angry at Marinette for how she kept secrets from him, never apologized for it, and ultimately ended up keeping the greatest secret of all from him about his father and the fact that he is a Sentimonster. But as the writing to this point shows, Marinette isn't a safe space for him where he is allowed to be himself. She is someone who also elicits his trauma responses from him. He doesn't let himself be angry with her, he always puts himself last when it comes to her.

I am not saying Marinette is in any way comparable to Gabriel. She is nowhere as bad as him, she does not come close to that in any way. Marinette is a good person. But what she did in the finale, is explicitly something that Gabriel wanted her to do. Gabriel wanted to continue to dictate his son's emotions and perceptions, and Marinette helped him do it. That's not a healthy relationship. And looking at all the Marinette-Gabriel parallels in Season 5... it's not a good look at all. The show portrays Adrien as someone who has been denied autonomy his whole life, and as someone who is expected to cater to the desires of the people around him and be perfect for them while neglecting his emotional needs, and made his arc one of finding independence and his own identity and learning that his feelings and desires matter. But also, they only matter as far as they don't inconvenience Marinette. Adrien shouldn't downplay his feelings, but if doing so would help Marinette, then he should do it actually. And it's hard for me not to see it as Ladybug benefitting from his trauma from his abusive home. It sounds harsh, but that's how it feels.

And all the talk of how Adrien would never hate Marinette and that he would forgive her is... disappointing to me. Because I don't necessarily disagree, but it still is about prioritizing Marinette's feelings over Adrien's. What is focused on is not how Adrien might feel betrayed, but how Marinette might feel sad about Adrien feeling betrayed by her, and reinforces that Adrien is so good because he would not hold it against her. Even though he should, even though it means he would be downplaying his pain massively if he didn't blame her for that. If Adrien's character should develop, he should be allowed to realize that he has the right to get angry and that he doesn't have to downplay his emotions or feel like it's all his fault. He should be allowed to do that without people jumping to Marinette's defense and excusing her of blame.

Throughout the series, Adrien has been the person to help Ladybug through her problems, and the narrative has never allowed her to do the same for him. And I want to see focus on Adrien for a change. I want to see someone other than Plagg reassuring him and supporting him, especially his partner. I want to see the narrative be less about "oh, Adrien would never hold anything against Marinette because he loves her and would understand her always," and be more "actually Adrien is allowed to prioritize his feelings and want distance from Marinette after she betrayed him in such a personal way." That would be development. That would be reclaiming his agency. That would be free will and autonomy. I would like to see focus on this in the show and the fandom.

Adrien is not obligated to forgive Marinette. He is not obligated to understand her reasonings for why she did what she did. He is allowed to be angry at her and express his hurt because of her actions. Seasons 4 and 5 have regrettably established Marinette as someone else who denies Adrien's agency and around whom he reverts back to his fawning trauma response, and quite frankly the best thing for him to do would be to break up with her and go find himself on his own terms. I want his character to develop and grow, and unfortunately, Seasons 4 and 5 proved to me that it would not be possible as long as he is around Marinette, both from a character and narrative standpoint.

I just wish people would acknowledge and validate Adrien's perspective and feelings more. Even if it means calling out Marinette. Gabe is Adrien's abuser but he isn't the only one who has hurt Adrien in the story. Marinette is an incredible and amazing person but as far as we've reached in the show, she is hurting Adrien. And she has done many things across these two seasons that violate Adrien's trust. It's not even that this is a mistake she could learn from, but that she has done several such things over and over. From keeping secrets about the Miraculous holders' identities even though Hawkmoth himself knew, to Rena Furtive, to trying to trick him into an identity reveal in Ephemeral, and now keeping the fact that he is a Sentimonster and that Gabe is Monarch from him. It's gone from secret keeping to outright lying to him. It is not healthy. And it is a sign of stagnation and regression in Adrien's growth if he continues to keep forgiving her over and over again despite her never fixing her behavior.

If Adrien's arc is about finding autonomy, then he cannot be with someone who is complicit in denying him the ability to make his own choices. If Marinette was supposed to be the knight in shining armor, they shouldn't have given her the key to the tower and have her hide it away. If she was supposed to save him, they shouldn't have had her condemn him further. If Marinette was supposed to be the one who helped Adrien regain his self worth, the person whom he could trust and rely on the most, they shouldn't have made her side with Gabe, deny Adrien his agency, and violate his trust so many times.

It didn't have to be written this way, but these were the decisions made by the writers. They chose to portray Marinette like this for no discernable reason and refused to acknowledge it or deal with it meaningfully. Adrienette is so profoundly unhealthy now that if Adrien's character is to grow, the only way for him to do that is to break up with Marinette. But the show has also made it very clear that Adrien is only a plot device and a trophy for Marinette at the end. So I have no doubt that all will be forgiven in a matter of minutes, and the narrative will praise Adrien for being traumatized and denying his own emotional needs to comfort Marinette as she feels bad for hurting him. And it's sad, but I guess it is what it is.

[buggachat]

lovesquare keeping secrets from each other conflict PART TWO LETS GOOOOOOOOOOOO

[reclamosmiraculersenspanish]

Solo se quejan del "Guionazo" cuando afecta a otros personajes que no son Marinette, peri si se trata de ella, mágicamente ella tiene control de sus acciones. OMG.

[iwasbored777]

So happy the Ladynoir conflict™ is over cuz I no longer have to run into the same edits where they put Ladynoir from s1 vs Ladynoir from season 4 followed by lyrics of Night Changes by One Direction

[familyagrestefanblog]

The existence of the Ox miraculous is such an unnecessary ugly detail when you think about Ladynoir and how Chat Noir served as the punching bag and scapegoat for Ladybug, Alya as Marinette's actual partner in season 4, and the whole team in every single way pre-s5

The Ox gives the power of immunity even against any other Miraculous power. One would think with Adrichat's self-harming tendencies that canon had Marinette make entirely about herself because "they're haunting her so much", and her still narratively entirely unchallenged tendency of leaving Chat Noir behind on the battle field as sacrifice or bait to possibly have whatever the hell done to him so she can be save and sound while she and everyone else can look and be cool on his expense

With all that, one would have thought that if Canon Marinette truly loved Chat Noir "sooooooo much" and is oh so haunted by his self-harming behavior and him always getting hurt so she sidelined him "for his own good"

Then how come at no point did Marinette do the actually caring thing by giving Chat Noir the Ox miraculous since he's ALWAYS left behind BY HER so she can leave the battle field and execute her plans with the others save and soundly? If her Chaton's well-being was oh so important to her and it always "pained her so much" to see him getting hurt then why was the Ox only used 2 insignificant times by Ivan at the end of season 4 when it could have saved Chat Noir ALOT of suffering all the way through?

Or the turtle. Or ANY OTHER Miraculous for that matter?

Why was Alya getting two miraculous in Hack-San perfectly fine with Marinette but heaven forbid Marinette is actually expected to ACT like she gives a damn about Chat Noir's well-being as his leader, guardian, partner, and friend and not just the show having her claim superficial words that hardly have anything to back them up once they actually have to mean something?

Its almost as if Canon inherently doubled down on having Marinette be the kind of leader who will only do things in a way that primarily benefit HER while everything else gets swept under the rug because she isn't maliciously intentioned and then never brought up again. And unfortunately it was her who was written to prioritize making an unnecessary team of 18 miraculous holders no one ever asked of her to form (Su-Han even told her NOT to give out the miraculous like candy),

so Marinette was just made to not consider Chat Noir either at all or simply not as worthy enough of any kind of consideration in her entire leadership/ guardianship or actual safety, support, or ANY KIND of resource since that wouldn't be narratively about her, now would it?

She can't have Chat have the Ox because she might need Ivan as Ox in 4 months and she doesn't want to have to ask Chat to get it back or end up NOT getting to use this ONE other Miraculous out of a whole ass box, because that would involve a basic ass conversation Marinette can't have apparently or her not getting to use all of the miraculous however she pleases at any given point

The horror. Now she would have only 14 miraculous to work with!

As per usual, count me fucking unimpressed by Marinette's writing. The negligence towards Chat Noir on even the most basic level is insane and she was declared the epitome of leadership and kindness for this.

Cool that Marinette already decided in her head that Ivan is suitable for the Ox miraculous and he should get it in future, but Chat Noir needing help and protection wasn't some theoretical case, it constantly happened right in front of her eyes and even by her own freaking orders too because she never thinks of him in ANYTHING and the show glorified the hell out of her as leader for doing all that

Why is looking into ANY detail only making Marinette's side of Ladynoir so much worse ever since season 4? There is no escaping this! Just don't add the Ox with this power or actually have Marinette be a good leader towards Chat Noir. But noooooooooo.

[fernsnouveau]

Tags by @actually-factually-anonymous

I have yet to recover from how viciously season 5 blew hole after hole into the reading that Marinette is deeply traumatized by Chat Blanc and that heavily influenced her bad treatment of him in season 4.

Season 5 rlly just said "nah, she's perfectly fine with it now". They just annihilated that explaination with everything they got and explained absolutely nothing. Why would you DO that?

[friendfromdsmp]

Is it only my impression, or in Miraculous Chat Noir is allowed to critizice Ladybug, but Ladybug is not allowed to criticize Chat Noir?

I completely agree and I think a big part of that comes down to the way the way the writers view Marinette and Adrien respectively; Marinette is supposed to learn a lesson in every episode and as she’s always been the one actively trying to advance the love square before the writers are ready for that, she has to fail often and make a lot of mistakes that are often played for comedy by the writers and the characters around her (before we’re suddenly told we’re now making fun of her trauma which is bad but I digress) whereas Adrien has always been considered by the writers to be ‘perfect’ and ‘he’s not flawed - the world is’, with even the characters in-universe referring to Adrien as ‘perfection personified’ and such

As a consequence, Marinette is often portrayed as in the wrong, even when the universe bends over backwards to make it so, whereas Adrien can’t be criticised and thus becomes a bit of a stagnant character because perfection doesn’t allow room to grow

I think that the LadyNoir dynamic does allow for playful criticism between the pair, granting us Ladybug banter such as “I’m not interested in your poetry, but I do find your foolishness incredibly powerful!”, “Because [the Ladybug Miraculous] requires a sense of responsibility~?”, “I had it under control *smacks Chat’s head* but thanks”, etc etc

But beyond the obviously playful banter that Chat returns in spades constantly, there’s definitely a theme of Chat Noir consistently mucking about in battle, often leading to either himself or someone else getting incapacitated or some other reckless and/or generally unhelpful issue caused, Ladybug getting annoyed at him and Chat giving some retort to poke fun at or pacify her rather than addressing the issue at hand. I mean, the start of Reflekdoll is a perfect example; Ladybug is calling Chat Noir out on pulling a prank in the middle of battle that almost caused her Lucky Charm to fail, with Chat Noir simply joking around and calling her no fun and a stick in the mud. I get that he’s not gonna be the most responsible and focused constantly, neither of them are, they’re fourteen. But there’s a difference between a quick pun while fighting and a prank on your partner while she’s already running on less than five minutes before she transforms back, trying to focus on a very serious problem and the prank being enough to put their entire mission in jeopardy. Play about and joke around all you want, we don’t care if you screw around on the job, but make sure you don’t actively work against said job while you do it!

And then afterwards the pair have a bit of a personality swap as well now that they swap Miraculous, with Adrien as Mister Bug being forced to step up since he now has the Miraculous that, in the nicest way possible, requires hard work and effort to use, whereas Marinette as Lady Noire is now freed from that burden and can use the comparatively simplistic power of just tapping whatever she wants to destroy and watching it happen, the most effort she has to put in with that is simply getting close enough to the desired object in order to touch it without touching anything else between activating her power and using it. So of course Mister Bug, used to slacking off and playing about, is a little overwhelmed in a situation where he’s the strategist rather than the support while Lady Noire, still a little annoyed by their earlier discussion, was happy to actively reverse the roles, taking time to play about and make quips at Mister Bug’s expense. Even making a joke that wearing the Black Cat suit/being in Chat’s role is “a lot lighter on the shoulders”, aka making a jab at Chat never having a sense of responsibility and thus the ‘weight being lifted off her shoulders’ now that she’s taking over his end of the load

The fan reactions to this episode were very telling; a lot of people were saying that Lady Noire was being rude and unhelpful and cruel to Mister Bug, which is hilarious since they actively, verbally clarified multiple times in the episode that both heroes were starting to act like each other now that the roles were reversed; Lady Noire was now “wearing the clown costume” and no longer a stick in the mud like Chat Noir complained about while Mister Bug “doesn’t have a sense of humour” and is no longer playing around and not taking things seriously mid-battle like Ladybug complained about

If they were simply acting like each other, why was Lady Noire considered rude and unhelpful for joking around mid-battle whereas Chat Noir is praised for being funny and keeping Ladybug from burning herself out by providing a supposed outlet to stress? If you complain about one, you have to complain about the other, especially since Lady Noire was still helping; she kept explaining how the Lucky Charm worked even when Mister Bug ignored her to prove he knew how to do this better than an experienced, specifically-selected wielder, she helped him think through the Lucky Charm by placing herself in Mister Bug’s shoes and attempting to adapt to his own thought process rather than hers, she repeatedly defended him from attacks while he was struggling to work out the mirror and yo-yo, etc. For all her sarcasm and salty quips, there was never a point where she left Mister Bug high and dry to fend for himself or sat by watching and flirting leisurely while he did all the work

I know I’ve focused a lot on Reflekdoll here since this is the most blatant example of the issue (being that Ladybug was in the right to criticise Chat for risking the fight over a prank while Mister Bug and some viewers criticising Lady Noire for being unhelpful was not only uncalled for but incorrect) but there are certainly many other examples I can think of in which MariBug is blamed for AdriChat’s actions or AdriChat criticises MariBug without good reason or MariBug is seen as rude or otherwise in the wrong for criticising AdriChat despite having legitimate grievances or not having all the info on a situation in which said info was impossible for her to know and/or actively kept from her. Season 4 is a goldmine for this but I know I always make incredibly long rambling posts so I’ll cut things short here, if the long ramble is what people are after feel free to ask for one

[marinetteplztakeabreak]

My personal “screaming about the lack of Ladynoir in the finale” post TM

Don’t know how to preface this???

this isn’t hate for the finale,

this is more, me reveling in the Angst of what they Chose Not To Put and screaming and wailing about how ladynoir has me in a chokehold

Im coming to terms with the s5 finale and finding bits of hope for my Ladynoir heart, etc. And i have decided that the finale has a ton of very very cool potential.

But i still can’t stop imagining… what if Adrien had gotten the messages from Ladybug??? What if he was About to give up being Chat Noir and give in to hopelessness and nightmares and terror and the cage he was trapped in and THEN (probably via Plagg, they could make it work) he got the frantic terrified messages from ladybug that were like “hi where ARE you?!?!?! Kitty cat come in NOW i NEED YOU!!?!? Hawkmoth knows my identity i think i am going to die i am all alone please please please show up i need you pick up pick UP.”

What if he was like. “Oh.” And his world just. Shifted. He thought his worst fear was ending the world as chat or being trapped even further by transforming in front of his father and being Caught but now Neither of those matter… now the only fear is just… not being Enough for ladybug… the fear of losing her or letting her down or making her feel as alone and abandoned and hopeless as he does right now????

What if he just????? Transformed without a moment of hesitation??? What if he was there taking to her on the phone coaching her through breathing and telling her he promised she would be okay and he promised he would be proud of her no matter what happened???? What if his own nightmares and fears started slipping through on the call and SHE turned around and reassured HIM that she trusts him fully and if he can’t trust himself he can at least trust HER judgement????? What if they both managed to avoid the mind control by being Each Others’ alliance?????

What if Ladybug found out that Chat Noir was in London ,,, because if Her identity’s been revealed to Monarch and she’s In His House than it’s Already going to hell and secrets don’t matter anymore, it just matters that they trust each other??? All they ever WANTED was to be open and trust and now its all they have left??? And theres not identity reveal or speculation bc it doesnt MATTER right now it just matters to SURVIVE or at LEAST be together for the end.

What if she told him not to come to Paris because it’s too dangerous to be in the same spot and he was like “im so sorry but i Cannot do that i cant leave you there Alone” and she was like “i know. and i love you. And id do the same. And that’s also why i cant tell you who monarch is or where the house is because i KNOW you’ll come here and i cant stop you. We cant both be in his grasp i just need you on the phone”

What if she fought in the basement for her life while getting support from him whilst he rallied all the other heroes and the resistance across the surface of paris???? What if we had ladybug and chat noir fighting the same battle on two different fronts, both Very Aware of each others’ situation nonstop,,, working as a Team despite the distance????? What if chat was just nonstop doing everything he could to reassure ladybug that they were doing okay and everyone supported her and he Trusted Her to do anything because the nightmares were STILL debilitating for everyone including them and they couldnt afford for either of them to get akumatized or even DISTRACTED and they just told puns and reminded each other when to use their powers and when to breathe?????

And chat could be captured or whatever and have to call out to ladybug and she could be like “send me your kwami its okay you did so good, i’ll be okay ill see you again”

Bug noire could still happen but it would be a strategic choice BOTH of them made TOGETHER with pain and love mixed together rather than the result of major decisions that they both were forced to make Independantly with no communication only fear and guilt and lonliness???

I dont know how to explain this but this is not salt this is not hate towards the episode this is just,,,, UGH this show has made me SO INVESTED in the dynamics and they had a CHANCE to do stuff and make it so fun and they DIDNT ,,,, they CHOSE to make it darker and grittier this time and i think it’s probably going in a cool direction,,, i think that ladybug and chat noir are gonna have some Fun (for me not for them) things to Discuss after this and some brand new abandonment issues combined with weird bits of Hope that Apparently they can survive on their own, all in a messy weird blurry pool of fears and relief and guilt and lonliness!!!!! And there’s so much to explore

But ALSO i miss my ladynoir goddammit i miss when it was the ladybug and chat noir show and i feel a little bit hollow seeing how ALONE!!! BOTH OF THEM were!!! this entire finale!!!!!!!!! Why are they ALONE those are my LADYNOIR they are PARTNERS do not SEPARATE THEM!!!! Stop doing PLOTS and HARD DECISIONS and IN CHARACTER MISTAKES to them and PLEASE just let them be perfect and together anyways aaaaaaaaa

(Bonus u can read the absolute essay i accidentally put in my tags for more scrambled thoughts)

[theerurishipper]

Could you please explain why Cat Noir is no longer healing for Adrien after season 4? I technically know the answer but I love your metas <3

Thank you so much for your compliment!

Anyway, about your question. The short version? They made Ladybug treat Chat Noir like Gabriel treats Adrien.

Let me explain. The Ladynoir conflict was about how Ladybug and Chat Noir were experiencing a shift in their dynamic because of Ladybug’s new role as the guardian. Ladybug starts to keep secrets from Chat Noir and leave him out of the loop. She replaces him with Rena Rouge as her primary partner in all but name. And Chat Noir understandably feels neglected and ignored by someone who is supposed to be his partner. His home life is shit, and Ladybug and his life as Chat Noir have always been his escape. Ladybug has been the one who accepted him unconditionally and cared for him with no need for him to change himself to please her. He trusts her with his life and heart, and suddenly, she doesn’t do the same for him. Instead, she’s keeping secrets from him, she’s leaving him out of things and more or less treats him as “just another holder.” And yeah, this is because of her new responsibilities as the Guardian and her trauma from Chat Blanc. But the fact remains that even if she wants to make these changes, she should tell him.

It's pretty obvious now that Marinette has a controlling side to her, and that shows itself more than ever. She wants to control everything, she admits it herself in Strikeback. And that includes Chat Noir. She controls what he knows and what he can do, and denies him information he actually needs. She lashes out at him and dismisses him when he does try to talk to her, like in Kuro Neko. And this behavior is, how do I say it, very much like what Gabriel is. Of course it is more understandable than Gabe and it is certainly nowhere close to the level of Gabriel’s treatment of Adrien, which is abuse plain and simple, but there are some… similarities. They both keep him at a distance, they both start making decisions for him, they both want to have control over everything, and that includes him. They both take advantage of his trust and forgiveness and they both take him for granted.

Again, Ladybug doesn’t go anywhere near the levels Gabe has reached with his treatment of Adrien, but she does in fact take advantage of his trust. Ephemeral is the worst offender here, with Ladybug actively deciding to trick Chat Noir into an identity reveal without his consent. I think it’s awful to do that to someone. And what’s worse is that the episode ends with her not even realizing that she was wrong to do something like that.

Anyway, she’s treating him not unlike the way he’s treated at home. And while her actions are obviously not as severe and not as malicious as Gabe… it doesn’t change the fact that Chat Noir feels suddenly less like an escape, and Ladybug becomes not much different from the people who only like to see him as an object or a perfect little doll. He used to mean something to her as her partner, and now he doesn’t. He’s just another tool in her toolbox. He’s just someone who’s in the way. Ladybug doesn’t care for him anymore. He’s a bother.

She used to roll her eyes at his flirtations, but now she flips out and throws him in a trashcan for them. She used to treat him like an equal partner, but now she yells at him if he tries to talk to her or help her. He’s bothering her. He’s in the way. And he’s not good enough.

So he quits.

And then he decides that he wants to be the partner Ladybug wants. Not Chat Noir, who is his escape and the only way he can be free. No he’s going to be the Adrien side of himself, the perfect doll who wants for nothing except to cater to Ladybug’s needs.

Now, here is where the show loses the plot. Kuro Neko is supposed to be the resolution to the Ladynoir conflict, apparently. And the way it happens is… Adrien putting aside his valid concerns and emotions because Ladybug needs help, and apologizing to her for wanting to be treated with respect. Which is what Gabe taught him. That his feelings don’t matter, and that he should be perfect and cater to everybody’s desires for how he should be. That he shouldn’t have emotional needs because he’s too emotional and he’s a burden on others for having them. He literally says, “the boy who was Chat Noir was probably too sensitive,” which is what Gabe taught him! That Adrien was too emotional to be able to make his own decisions, and so Gabriel had to protect him and keep him in control. He had to be perfect for everyone because in reality, he was too emotional, and no one wanted to see that.

And Ladybug accepts this! She also thinks that Chat Noir is being a bother, and she starts crushing on Catwalker so quickly. And this isn’t salt on her for crushing on Catwalker, but it is so bad from a narrative standpoint and when you consider the implications of that. You see, what Adrien is doing with this whole Catwalker thing is something called fawning. It’s a trauma response because of Gabe's abuse. He pushes aside his own needs and desires to please Ladybug. He assumes responsibility for her mistakes and blames it on himself. At the end of the episode, he apologizes to her! And she just says some things about how he’s irreplaceable to her and how she needs him and all that.

And what is tells me is that Ladybug doesn’t like when Chat Noir has emotional needs and expectations of her in their partnership, and that she likes only boys who take care of her emotional needs without expecting anything in return. Adrien just seems so perfect and unbothered by anything, and he’s always praising and encouraging her. Luka always put her emotional needs first and was always in her corner even when she didn’t pay as much attention to their relationship. And now Catwalker, who says he’ll take care of her. And considering the Love Square from a writing standpoint is supposed to have Ladybug fall for both sides of Chat Noir, seeing her fall so quickly for him when he denies himself his needs and accepts being her emotional support partner is not the best look.

And what’s worse is that this reaction from Adrien is because he is an abuse victim. He is once again, putting on a mask to make himself into the person Ladybug wants. And they specifically say that he should act like the “perfect son” side of himself, so Adrien is acting the way for Ladybug the way he usually acts for Gabriel. And he ends the episode by apologizing for having emotions and for inconveniencing her. And since Adrien pushing aside his own desires is a trauma response, and Ladybug likes people who don’t inconvenience her with their emotions, it comes across as Ladybug benefitting from Chat Noir being traumatized, and it’s so great for her that Chat Noir comes pre-abused and ready to supress his emotional needs and cater to hers while demanding nothing from her.

Yikes.

But let’s move on to Strikeback, where Ladybug admits her mistakes. She admits she wanted to control things, that she pushed him away and left him in the dark. He hugs and reassures her he’s always here, and it’s beautiful and sweet. The Ladynoir conflict was not resolved, but surely, they would address it next season, right? Surely, we would get episodes of Ladybug apologizing and working to make up for her mistakes, right? Surely Chat Noir wouldn’t just forget this treatment, right?

It's never brought up again in Season 5. In fact, Season 5, where the Gabriel-Marinette parallels are really hammered down onto us, ends with Marinette siding with Gabriel and lying to Adrien about his entire existence. So, the entire conflict ends with Chat Noir putting aside his own emotional needs because Ladybug is sad, and he just accepts that he’ll never be treated with the respect that he wanted. Ladybug doesn’t learn squat, and she just does the same things again, but even worse this time.

At this point, they have their own toxic cycle. Ladybug does something to Chat, he puts his own needs aside to forgive and support her instead/accepts the blame onto himself, she does it again. All the while, he’s offering her emotional support while pushing away any of his feelings so that he doesn’t inconvenience her with them. When he does seem at the end of his rope, she says something along the lines of “I need you,” or “you’re irreplaceable to me,” and he comes right back to her, ready to continue being her emotional support partner even though she never actually fixes her mistakes. And while she obviously does mean what she says to him, her actions prove otherwise, and they end up coming across as similar to those little concessions Gabe gives Adrien so that he won’t get away from him. And this is never resolved. Season 5 ignored it, but it was never resolved, and the finale just brings it back full throttle with Marinette literally siding with Gabriel and doing what he wants.

This should have been an arc showing how Ladybug’s and Gabriel’s treatment of Adrien is ultimately different. They both make the same mistakes, though Gabriel is worse. But what’s different is that Ladybug actually does love and value Chat Noir, and she would never go as far as that because learns and grows, and because she is a good person. But instead, they had the protagonist act like the love interest’s abuser, established a bunch of parallels between them, and had her literally follow his request on how to treat his victim. They flat out went beyond it being a coincidental parallel. She’s literally doing what he wants at his own request. Not a good look for the abuse victim’s girlfriend to be behaving like the abuser.

But that was a long tangent. Anyway, to sum it up, Chat Noir was supposed to be Adrien’s escape from a toxic, controlling environment into one where he could be free. But everything changed when Season 4 attacked. And Adrien goes back to his trauma responses that he tries to escape from as Chat Noir, and this is treated as good and correct by the narrative. His hero life is also now being controlled, and Ladybug is behaving like Gabriel. His life where he once felt free is just another prison.

I hope this answers your question. Thank you for your ask!