#Ladynoir conflict

[theerurishipper]

Ladynoir and (In)Equality

For me personally, the most important thing in any relationship is that both partners are equals in that dynamic. I think that's a reasonable expectation to have. And Ladynoir did fulfill that requirement for me in the first 3 seasons. Even though Ladybug did most of the leadership stuff by making the plans and directing Chat Noir on what to do, it was understood that this was a mutual agreement. They both understood what they were good at, and their dynamic evolved accordingly. Chat Noir was content to follow her lead and Ladybug was content to make the plans and direct Chat Noir.

Season 2 saw the introduction of the inequality that shattered this balanced dynamic between the two, and quite frankly the later seasons only made it worse. It started in Syren, as we all know, where Chat Noir first expressed his displeasure at being left out of the loop when Ladybug was privy to important information that was being kept from him. Of course, Master Fu arrived to barely smooth things over before the issue was dropped for the season and never brought up again. Their dynamic remained as it was, but the cracks began to form here.

The introduction of Ladybug being the Guardian in Season 4 changed this established dynamic, obviously, and Ladybug began to give the Miraculous out to other holders. Keeping Chat Noir out of the loop began to become her MO, and she effectively replaced him with Rena Furtive in all but name. The central conflict of the season was the cracks forming in their relationship because of her new responsibilities and her secret keeping. And the resolution to this, as stated in Kuro Neko and Risk, is that even if he's no longer her partner, she still likes him best.

Now, the previous Ladynoir dynamic was one of equality, where they knew their roles and acted upon them. They were equals, and Ladybug's leadership in their pair was an informal one, one that was mutually agreed upon by them. The introduction of the Guardian role for Ladybug changes this from a mutually agreed upon dynamic to one where Ladybug is, for all intents and purposes, his boss. She is officially his leader, in the sense that if she so wished, he would be obliged to hand his Miraculous over to her. In the sense that she would be well within her rights to replace him if she so desired (which she does do). She is his superior, and he is no more important than the other temporary holders, with the sole exception that he holds his Miraculous permanently (which has now been exacerbated by the fact that all of them are permanent holders now).

Chat Noir received a demotion for no fault of his own, which he did not want, and someone else was promoted to replace him in the position he once occupied. Rena Furtive is Ladybug's special partner. Chat Noir is not Rena Furtive's equal, and he is definitely not Ladybug's equal.

This is not about a woman making more money than a man. She isn't just more successful than him, and this isn't about him being insecure about her being better than him. The problem is that Ladybug is Chat Noir's direct superior, and she has power over him. She has the power to call him when she needs him, and if not him, she'll get someone else. She has the resources to figure out his identity without him being none the wiser. She has the power to replace him if she wishes. Far be it from him to allow her to lead of his own accord, now he is obliged to follow her orders. She has the power to control what he knows and how he acts, and she has the power to keep vital information from him.

None of this is inherently "bad." But when you look at it from the context of them being on a path to a romantic relationship with each other, that's where the problems begin. Two people in a relationship should not have a dynamic where one has so much power over the other. Ladybug has so much power that she is able to slide a third teammate into their partnership and slowly push him away from his role at her side. She, quite unfortunately, can and has abused his trust because she had the resources to do so. The only opportunity he had in Season 4 to make his own choices that were not dictated by Ladybug's rules was when he quit. The final takeaway from this Ladynoir conflict is that Chat Noir is her favorite subordinate now (because Rena Furtive has replaced him), and just because they aren't equals anymore doesn't mean she doesn't want him around.

And, no, this was not corrected in Season 5. Season 5 was a return to their original dynamic, not because Ladybug and Chat Noir worked around this new shift in their relationship to find a way to overcome this new power imbalance. It's because Ladybug's power was forcibly taken away from her by a third party, and the only reason Chat Noir is her special partner again is because there is no one else left. But the end of Season 5 sees everyone come back, as permanent holders no less, and Chat Noir is once again demoted to his role as "just another holder like any other."

With the establishment of the Ladybug and the Black Cat Miraculous as two halves of a duo, equals in power, you'd expect them to be, well, equals. Me being upset about the inequality of these characters isn't with regards to screentime, or my wish for Adrien to be the main character or anything. My wish is for Adrien to be a character of his own. My wish is for the show to stop promoting such unhealthy dynamics as cute and fine. If they had simply made Adrien's role out to be the love interest, if they had just literally made him Ken who is content with just being Barbie's trophy boyfriend from the very beginning, if that was all his role has ever been and was meant to be from the start, I wouldn't be complaining so much. But the one they reduced into the role of Marinette's prize, the one over whom she has so much power, is the abuse victim whose arc is about self-actualization. And it paints a very disturbing picture. That far be it from Chat Noir to expect any kind of equal treatment from Ladybug, he's going to have put aside any discomforts or issues he has with their relationship to settle for being her favorite by virtue of nostalgia.

And it's just... bad, on a narrative level. Despite its ambitious introduction of so many plot points, the focus of this show has always been its romance. The main narrative goal of the series is for Ladybug and Chat Noir to get together. So, when your narrative hinges on these two characters getting together, and you decide to introduce such a power dynamic into the mix, saying "I still like you," isn't the fix that it's cracked up to be. If they are supposed to be the relationship around which the show is built, Chat Noir should be Ladybug's special partner, he should be her equal and not just another holder whom she likes better than everyone else. Ladynoir's relationship is directly tied to their partnership, and their dynamic as partners is the basis for any future romantic relationship between them. Introducing such an inequality between them in their partnership does affect their ability to be able to get together, and not in a good way.

This isn't a bad plot point. I like Ladybug being the Guardian, I like that they didn't just brush off the fact that there would be some changes in their dynamic. What I dislike is the way it was resolved, with Ladybug essentially saying that they would never be equals but she still likes him. A power imbalance does not a healthy relationship make. Ladynoir do not have a relationship where they are both completely aware of everything they should know. Chat Noir really cannot do anything in their dynamic, because Ladybug has all the control over everything. It's Ladybug controlling this information and Chat Noir accepting that he'll never be treated the way he wants to be treated, because he's been conditioned to believe his feelings don't matter. And she never did end up correcting this, and the conflict as it is ended with him forgiving her for everything even though she never apologized, and accepting that this is how it's going to be.

And it's not good. This isn't the Ladynoir I signed up for, honestly. I signed up for the Ladybug who accepted Chat Noir unconditionally and the Chat Noir who supported Ladybug through everything. I did not sign up for Ladybug trying to pull a Gabe and Chat Noir only being her emotional support who suppresses his own needs for her. The Ladynoir conflict and its less than satisfying resolution caused irreparable damage to the Ladynoir dynamic (it's irreparable because the writers don't see a problem with it and so they'll never fix it), and this has only continued into Season 5, which said "why fix it when I can make it worse."

[familyagrestefanblog]

You know what's so sad about how badly Ladynoir got nuked that it actually turns around to be funny again?

Not only did Marinette telling Chat Noir that she'll never abandon him loose all meaning in season 5 because she left after being told "no" by him once (and she already wanted to leave before Plagg initiated his plan:

I know, its almost like the show is going out of its way to nuke Ladynoir) and proceeded to not think about making sure it's at least Scarabella again who Chat Noir will be meeting after last episode to try and prevent the same "new Ladybug" disaster she said she was sorry for from happening again. And who has to tell him the bad news that this time Ladybug left for good and that it was him saying "no" that caused it.

So exactly all the problems with Hack-San again just for real and WORSE, and even the fear he was talking about at the end - that one day it wouldn't be her and he'll never see her again.

It is incredibly difficult for me to be upset with Adrien for leaving bc of all this. Even if I want to. Marinette's side is just so much worse again

But, no. That's not it!

Even the one and only tini-tiny thing she actually DID manage to remember him for while she threw the darkest red-alert situation at him in "Hack-San", it still ended up ringing pretty much hollow by the end of season 5.

I swear, not a single Ladynoir excuse for Marinette in "Hack-San" is in any way holding up. It's insane.

Cause not ONCE in all of season 4 and 5 does Marinette as Ladybug laugh at anything Chat Noir says. She straight up acknowledged it towards Alya that it makes him happy and she seriously never once does.

That is... genuinely sad. Not sad as in pathetic, just deeply saddening.

And even the few times when civilian Marinette laughs with Chat Noir, I can't remember it ever being at his jokes. It happens when other civilians are bothered by them in the cinema in "Glaciator 2" and in "Elation" when she's having fun at the date in general and later when Adrien tries to be silly while explaining something and then Marinette laughs at Chat being frustrated at himself for not being able to put what he wants to say into words.

But all of these cases are not her laughing at his jokes the way she literally said she knows makes him happy. So she's still not doing it.

Wait, no. When Marichat get the ice cream in "Elation". At least thats a moment where Marinette actively laughs at a joke Chat made. Although, she revealed in "Hack-San" that she would do so, too, even if she didn't think it's funny at all and that unfortunately does leave a very sour taste in my mouth:

Person B being the only one who genuinely laughs at person A's jokes is such a popular trope for a reason and it stings knowing that even that doesn't truly apply here.

The trope was ironically recycled into Adrien thinking Marinette's behavior is funny which he then in season 5 got shamed for by the narrative when he then found out that he was laughing at her trauma responses and he beats himself up for it (what a weird writing decision, honestly)

But Marinette as Ladybug for some reason just continued to be written to not laugh to make Chat Noir happy (even when she was oh so in love with him in the beginning of season 5) and that puts the genuineness of the rare times she does into question bc Marinette is apparently just willing to fake it every blue moon.

But I guess, credit where credit is due. She did indeed do the thing she said she knows makes Chat Noir happy ONE TIME in 52 episodes. Only as civilian, though. And mind you, she left the next episode and previously said that her laughing doesn't mean she actually thinks he's funny.

But one questionable time is better than non, right ?

[wield-the-mighty-pen]

Just remember that in every even season of Miraculous, there has been a Ladynoir conflict of some kind.

Season 2 had one because Ladybug was keeping the guardian and the knowledge of the Miraculous a secret. Season 4 had one because Ladybug was keeping secrets pertaining to her role as guardian and her confiding in Alya. 

Season 6 is coming, and there just happens to be a whole lot of information that Ladybug is not sharing with Chat Noir...

[reclamosmiraculersenspanish]

Zull memes: La página de Facebook obsesionada con Marinette Dupain-Cheng.

Me sigue sorprendiendo lo mucho que la odian. Sobre todo en grupos de Facebook en español. yo entendería que ya, les cayera mal, está bien. Pero literalmente hay una página de Facebook llamada Zull memes, que se dedica a tiempo completo a tirar hate.

Antes me molestaba, pero a veces decían cosas ciertas. Sin embrago, de un momento a otro, empezaron a exagerar cosas, cambiando guiones solo para "Menospreciar" al personaje.

Llegando al punto de compararla con Amber Heard, cuando estaba el tema del juicio de Jonny Depp, la misma Amber que se cagó en la cama de su novio. ¿Sí se dan cuenta que no es normal?

Y la gente puede decir, bueno, son solo memes. Pero no, tienen detrás a una bola de fans tóxicos, que menosprecian y encasillan a cualquier fan de Marinette.

Además, desinforman, por culpa de la influencia que tiene en la gente los memes, muchos hasta creen los guiones cambiados que a veces ponen.

Recientemente otra página publicó cosas similares a lo que se burlaba Zull memes, desde las cosas más normales, hasta las más exagerada. Pero en contra de Chloe, la adorada y justificada de la página. Y se ardieron sus seguidores.

Eso demuestra que son iguales de inmaduros que a los fans que tanto critican. Realmente Miraculous no debió volver tan conocida. Atrajeron a un montón de fans tóxicas e inmaduras.

[gameguy20100]

🔥LadyNoir's "conflict" in S4

It was a failure to communicate.

Demonising, either of them, is stupid.

[iwasbored777]

So happy the Ladynoir conflict™ is over cuz I no longer have to run into the same edits where they put Ladynoir from s1 vs Ladynoir from season 4 followed by lyrics of Night Changes by One Direction

[theerurishipper]

me waiting for adrien to be allowed to be anything other than ladybug's loyal dog

[theerurishipper]

Coming back to one of the points I've made earlier but never really elaborated upon, what does it do for Adrien's arc to have everyone lie to him?

Adrien's arc is about finding his self-worth and his independence and learning how to be loved unconditionally. Gabriel is controlling and abusive and only gives Adrien a second's worth of attention if Adrien caters to his every whim. And so, you'd think that part of Adrien's arc is learning that people will love him for who he is without him having to bend to their desires, and that he has the right to make decisions for himself. But this new development as of the Season 5 finale is that, no, Adrien's loved ones actually don't want him to make his own choices. In fact, they would rather support and emulate his abusive father's controlling actions and deny Adrien his agency and his ability to make informed choices about his own life. They would rather dictate how he should feel and would rather decide what's best for him rather than giving him the choice to do so himself. This comes with its large set of very much unfortunate implications.

Under the cut because this is long.

This is a problem that started with Season 4, with the introduction of Ladybug's Gabriel-esque behavior towards Chat Noir, and the subsequent lack of proper resolution. In fact, the resolution was that Chat Noir was asking too much of Ladybug, and that what needed to be done to resolve this conflict of Ladybug keeping important secrets from Chat Noir and replacing him with other holders... was for Chat Noir to suck it up and continue supporting Ladybug. It was for him to put aside his legitimate concerns with her actions and to accept that he would never be treated the way he wants to be. It was for him to push down his own feelings and come to stay by her side even though she had not treated him well, and even though she never actually fixed her mistakes.

What is the importance of his relationship with Ladybug? For the first 3 seasons, at least, it was the escape from his abusive home life that Adrien needed, to someone who would accept him unconditionally. But Season 4 introduced the infamous Ladynoir conflict that permanently altered their dynamic. I've talked about how the Season 4 finale only served to reinforce the inequality between them. It begins with Ladybug keeping secrets from Chat Noir and pulling away from him, and it ends by him simply forgiving her because he is used to downplaying his own needs. And I don't feel the desire to rehash all that, but it does beg the question: What is the takeaway from the Ladynoir conflict? Is it that he should bend himself over to be what she needs, but she doesn't need to return the same support? Is it that Ladybug is the Flawless Leader™, and he should learn his place? Because that's the impression it gives.

Now, I've talked before about how Gabriel's abuse has caused Adrien to believe love is conditional and has to be earned by him pleasing the other person and doing whatever they expect of him. And the importance of his Chat Noir persona being more expressive and "imperfect" is that this is the only time he can let loose and have fun, free of the expectations of others. And Season 4 has him return to his trauma responses around Ladybug, the person who is narratively supposed to be the one person who accepts his imperfections and doesn't place any expectations on him. Now, Chat Noir being traumatized is not Ladybug's fault, of course, and if he is fawning over her, certainly it is not her fault. But the narrative frames this as beneficial to her. Ladybug likes when Chat Noir fawns over her as Catwalker. Over and over in the story, she takes advantage of his forgiveness and trust, and never examines herself or her actions, and never tries to fix her mistakes because he always ends up forgiving her due to his belief that his feelings don't matter. Ladybug meets Catwalker, which is literally just Adrien fawning and trying to be whatever he needs to be to please her, and she instantly falls for him.

And in a narrative sense... this is detrimental to the concept of the Love Square, because it reinforces the narrative that Ladybug will never fall in love with Chat Noir, because what she wants is the perfect image, the flawless partner. The rose-tinted glasses she sees Adrien with are not being removed, rather she is putting on a fresh, darker shade. And it doesn't say good things about their development that she falls for the perfect act almost immediately upon meeting him, the moment he swears that he'll take care of her. And I won't go into too much detail since I've covered it in my other posts, but the point is that Marinette only ever seems to fall for boys who don't inconvenience her with their emotions, and instead take care of her needs without expecting anything, and this makes it seem like she is benefitting from Adrien's trauma. And Marinette is never allowed to return the support she gets from Chat Noir in any meaningful way, and it is framed by the narrative as right and wonderful that Adrien is so nice as to put his feelings aside and support her over and over again despite her repeatedly making the same mistakes and hurting him. His trauma response is framed as a good thing because it benefits Marinette.

Season 4 was about Marinette deliberately keeping secrets from her partner, dictating his actions and outright lying to him and taking advantage of his trust at times. Decidedly Gabe-like behavior, even though it was way more toned down and way less malicious (I won't go too far with that comparison, but still). And Season 5 ends up adding more salt to the wound, by having Marinette straight out lie to Adrien about his father, dictating his perceptions and controlling his thoughts and feelings, just like Gabriel would have liked. And in fact, Gabriel asked her to do this to the son she knows he abused, and she sides with him. And it's not just Marinette. The list of people who have denied Adrien honesty just goes on and on. Gabriel, Emilie, Nathalie, Amelie, Felix, Kagami, Master Fu, Luka, Plagg, Tikki, Marinette, Alya, Su-Han... they are all, as those who knew truths about different situations, people who chose to lie to and hide information from Adrien that he was entitled to. And with the exception of Luka and Master Fu, all of these people are complicit in siding with Gabriel and denying Adrien the most important secret of all, the truth of his very existence.

Which raises the question: if Adrien's arc was supposedly about breaking free from a controlling life and finding those who didn't do that to him, then why is it that everyone around him appears to agree with Gabriel? Why does the person who, in the narrative, is supposed to be the opposite of Gabriel and the saving grace for Adrien, parallel him so much in both actions and backstory? Does that not cheapen Adrien's arc? What does that imply for him? That he can never escape the fate of being controlled? That being controlling over a person's agency is fine and dandy if done for the right reasons?

Let's take a look back over Adrien's arc. Adrien's first scene is him rebelling against Gabriel, and we see him come closer and closer to the realization that Gabriel is abusive and cruel. We see Adrien make friends like Nino and Ladybug. We see the trajectory that his arc is going in, one of him learning to reject his father and assert his self-worth and his own identity in the face of the man who has controlled him his whole life.

And yet, there are still some glaring problems that become more apparent as the story progresses, and they come to a head in Seasons 4 and 5. It's shown in scenes like in the episode Felix, where we see that despite everyone getting together to do something nice for Adrien, the moment he acts out of character, their first instinct is to admit that they don't know him very well at all. Almost all the interactions he has with his supposed best friend and his other friends are about setting him up with Marinette. Adrien only matters to them in his role as Marinette's future boyfriend. And this is not addressed by the narrative as something that should be fixed or resolved, or that it is even a problem in the first place.

Adrien's feelings are repeatedly denied in this show. From him having to simply forgive and forget how Ladybug hurt him, to him being repeatedly taken advantage of by Felix without the narrative letting him be upset over it, to his instant forgiveness of Gabriel, the narrative will not let Adrien feel anything negative towards the characters that the narrative actually cares about so as to not inconvenience them. His only purpose is to prop them up and bend to their needs, and anything he might realistically feel against them is invalidated and forgotten because it would go against his role of being their motivation/prop/plot device.

We also see a problem with narrative focus for him. Adrien is not the protagonist of the show, and my criticism is not that he does not get as much screentime as Marinette. The issue is that even the dedicated screentime he does get outside of being shipped with Marinette and being a part of the battle of the episode, the screentime that should be used to develop his character is often cut into by the writers' desperate need to shove Marinette into every single plot and have her be the focus of every episode. Episodes that should have focused on Adrien's loneliness like Puppeteer 2, or episodes dedicated to Adrien's friendships with others like Party Crasher, or even episodes like Gabriel Agreste which should have focused on the Agreste drama, are ultimately about Marinette trying to confess her feelings for Adrien. But this really shows itself in Chat Blanc, where the main plot of the episode is one where Gabriel's abuse of Adrien is ramped up to the max, and one where Adrien undergoes unimaginable and incomprehensible trauma, and the only thing that truly matters about it is... how it affects Marinette.

And as I said, Season 4 takes this to a new level. Ladybug, the one supposed to be Adrien's escape from his civilian life, is also someone who he fawns around. And that inherently is not a bad thing to depict, because it is not Ladybug's fault that Chat Noir is traumatized, and it is realistic that this happens. What is a problem though, is the way the narrative never paints this as a trauma response. Chat Noir pushing aside his feelings and supporting her as she repeatedly hurts him over and over is treated as good and nice of him, without her having to examine herself or realize she's treating him badly. And in the end, he accepts that he'll never be treated like he wants to and comes back to support her in her hour of need, and simply shoves his feelings away, never to complain about them again. I mentioned that Ladybug benefits from Chat Noir's civilian abuse, and this is how. Chat Noir is allowed to be traumatized, but only as long as it doesn't affect Marinette. Then, his trauma response is not only beneficial, but also the romantic and right thing to do. And, as Kuro Neko said, the answer to the issue of Ladybug keeping secrets and making mistakes is for Chat Noir to stop being so sensitive and just push his feelings away to support her. Chat Noir's trauma does not matter.

And Season 5 only doubles down on this. Adrien's rebellion against his father only matters now because the end goal is for him to date Marinette. The issue of him being a Sentimonster only matters because now it's getting in the way of him dating Marinette. But it could have been fine. Development is development, and the scene where Adrien finally confronts his abuser and asserts his right to be an individual and have autonomy over himself will still be an empowering moment that shows him breaking free of abuse-

He is not in the final battle.

Instead, Marinette is the one to face Adrien's abusive father, by merging Adrien's Miraculous with hers, by facing him off in Adrien's home. Marinette is the one who stands up to Gabriel and faces him. Marinette is the one who completes Adrien's arc for him. It was never about Adrien facing off against his father. It was all a set up for Marinette to do it.

As we all know, Thomas Astruc has gone on record on Twitter to say that Chat Blanc was the reason that Adrien could not participate in the final battle. Chat Blanc, which happened in Season 3, two seasons before Adrien rebelled to this extent against his father, before he underwent that little thing in writing called character development. In Season 4, we watched Ephemeral which more or less rehashed the same points as Chat Blanc, and in Season 5, we watched Representation, where Adrien's final interaction with his father was to be sprayed with nightmare gas and be unable to fight in the final battle (even though Bug Noire managed whilst also suffering from nightmares). We saw these ridiculous excuses be used to contrive a reason for why Adrien could not participate in his own arc, in his own story, even though they could have been easily resolved.

Throughout Season 5, we see the parallels being built up between Marinette and Gabriel, about how they both came from the same situations, and how alike they are in that regard. Previous parallels established between them that the show does not acknowledge as much as it should are their controlling streak (though Marinette is nowhere near as bad as Gabe) and them being willing to do anything for the people they love ("love" being questionable in Gabe's case). Marinette is the one who hears the truth of the Agreste family. In the Season 5 finale, Marinette and Gabriel are the ones that face off against each other. Adrienette was rushed up to come to full fruition in Season 5 despite it hampering the development of the Love Square, all in an attempt to connect Marinette to the Agreste plot. Therefore, Adrien was only ever a plot device so that Marinette could have a stake in the Agreste plot. He is there to connect Marinette and Gabriel and give them something to fight over. Their fight is about him and what is best for him, but he has no agency in it despite it being about him. He only exists as the prize for the winner.

I've talked about this before, but the jist of it is that Adrien was never meant to have an arc about breaking free of abuse. He was never meant to confront his father. Adrien's story only mattered so that Marinette could use it in her speech to talk Gabe down. Adrien's feelings only mattered as far as they affected Marinette herself. He was just meant to be there to further her development. His main contribution to the arc with his last name was to give up his agency and step aside for Marinette, and this is what his role has been throughout the show. All his character was meant to do was be the damsel in distress who she could receive as her trophy once she defeated the big bad villain.

Everything Adrien's character was meant to do was to be Ladybug's prop to offer he support when she needed it, to offer her a connection to the main plotline, and to be her prize after she won. His feelings, his emotions, his trauma... they all only mattered in the context of what they meant for Ladybug. If they inconvenienced her, they were unimportant. If they benefitted her, they were good. He took the blame for her mistakes so that she didn't have to be held accountable, he forgave her so that she didn't have to work to fix her mistakes, and he continued to support her when she didn't really return the favor. Because that is Adrien's role, to be Marinette's emotional support partner who conveniently comes pre-abused and ready to downplay his feelings and emotions to cater to hers while not asking or expecting anything of her. He only exists to take care of Marinette's needs, not as his own character.

And this writing of Adrien's trauma as secondary to Marinette's convenience is a really awful way to write an abuse victim. Not allowing him to prioritize his own feelings and portraying it as a good thing when he fawns over Ladybug is a really awful and bad way to portray his trauma stemming from his abuse. But good thing the fact that he is a victim of abuse is respected at least with regards to his relationship with his abuser, right?

Right?

It's been discussed before how Gabriel's actions are downplayed and minimized in order to afford him maximum sympathy, to portray him as just a misguided and lost soul, instead of as a terrorist and abuser (credit to @erisluna35 for their great post on the matter). The show denies Adrien an opportunity to confront the man, and instead, the good ending is that his victim forgives him. One way the show downplays Gabriel's abusiveness towards Adrien is by having Marinette want to work with him to find a solution for Adrien, implying that his only crime was to not think of Adrien's well-being, and that the only intentions he had for Adrien were correct, fatherly ones that he just lost sight of, and that if he had paid attention to Adrien, he would have been an excellent and loving father, instead of it being that he actively mistreated his son and therefore should not be trusted or allowed to make any sort of decision regarding Adrien's future. He was always "just a man who loves his family" deep down, and he always had only good intentions and a pure heart, and he simply forgot about what he had in pursuit of an ideal family for that son, instead of it being that he was an abusive, controlling person who whittled down his son's self-worth and treated him like a possession, like property, like a doll that was made to cater to his wishes, and that he only ever wanted his wife back for himself and not for his son.

And this just suggests to me that Gabriel's actions... are not meant to be read as abusive. His only crime was paying attention to the Miraculous over his son. Not the gaslighting, the manipulation, the lifelong isolation, the controlling, the physical violence in some realities, the fucking sensory deprivation chambers... those were all not abuse, I guess.

This is confirmed by the fact that Marinette and everyone else lying to Adrien about his existence because Gabriel asked them to do so is framed as a good thing and as proof of Marinette's love for Adrien or something. They are quite explicitly doing what he says, literally following his wishes on how to treat his son. And yet, their actions are not framed as toxic and controlling as they should be, but as selfless and kind towards poor Adrien who won't be able to handle the truth because he's too emotional and weak. Despite this being classic Gabe rhetoric, this is supposed to be seen as sweet and heartwarming and touching, that Marinette is oh so selfless to deny Adrien the information he is entitled to know and to make that choice for him. This tells us that the writers don't really see how Gabriel treated Adrien as... wrong. They don't see his actions are wrong, because when Marinette does it, it's fine! The issue, then, isn't that Gabriel is an abuser who denies his son his autonomy, it's that Gabriel did all these things for the wrong reasons, and Marinette is doing them for the right reasons.

Indeed, the parallelisms, whether intentional or not, between Marinette and Gabriel only serve to further downplay the magnitude of Gabriel's abuse of his son. The problem wasn't that these things are wrong and awful, it's that Gabriel did them because he was Evil and Marinette is doing them because she's Good, and when you're Good, it's okay to gaslight your boyfriend into loving his abuser. There's nothing inherently wrong or abusive about anything Gabriel did. The issue, in fact, is not that he did these things, but his reasonings for them. While it's okay if Marinette denies Adrien the right to be informed of his own life because she feels he is too emotional to be able to make his own choices, because she is Pure and Good and she Loves Him So Much.

And for another example, consider how Emilie Agreste is framed as a perfect and loving and wonderful mother, even though she allowed Adrien to be isolated his whole life and is also heavily implied to have been using the mind control rings on him, since there are two of them. This kinda shows that the writers don't really think mind controlling is abuse or even wrong. It's just wrong because Gabriel is Evil, but Emilie is Pure and Good and therefore allowed to abuse her child this way.

But I don't think the writers were malicious about this. Despite his questionable tweets, I don't think Thomas Astruc doesn't care about abuse. I don't think the writers were deliberately trying to infantilize the abuse victim in the story. I just feel like they don't understand that what they portrayed is abuse. And yet, it comes off as them invalidating the trauma Adrien suffered, but I don't think that would be intentional. The explanation I have for this, therefore, is that Adrien is not supposed to have trauma. Adrien is not supposed to be read as a victim of abuse.

I've mentioned the Marinette-Gabriel parallels, but let me add one more. Adrien is the plot device that furthers Marinette's character, but he also fulfills the same role for Gabriel.

Throughout Season 5, we see Adrien rebel against his father more and more, and it was expected that this would culminate in a final confrontation where Adrien would confront his abuser in his entirety. But Adrien was not a part of this final confrontation, so the arc wasn't about him, and it stands to reason that it must have been for some other character. We see that it is for Marinette, since she was the one who fulfilled what should have been his arc and got the moment that should have been Adrien's. But who was on the other side of this confrontation? Who was the one the speech was directed towards? Who did Adrien connect Marinette to?

It is Gabriel.

Adrien's callout of his father does not matter for furthering his character, but for furthering Gabriel's character. His calling out of Gabriel is less a way for him to finally realize that his father's treatment of him is cruel, and more of a way for Gabe to be seen a tragic, fallen villain. Adrien's callout of his father is not about him, it's about Gabriel and how he feels about it. The finale deals not with Adrien's feelings about being failed by his father, but how Gabriel feels about having failed him. Adrien's increasing rejection of his father is not used to finish the arc he should have had, but it is used in Gabriel's instead. And Gabriel's redemption comes from him being praised by his victim, who aspires to be like him. Adrien was only ever there to progress Gabriel's arc, not the other way around. Adrien had no real agency in the matter, and Gabriel's increasingly cruel treatment of him was only ever there to highlight how far he himself had fallen and was never really about Adrien realizing the truth about him.

And once Gabriel makes the choice to "change," he is rewarded with the forgiveness and love of his victim, who is there to conveniently express to the viewer how we should feel about him. Adrien is there to call out Gabriel when Gabriel is being Bad and Evil and is there to then inform the viewers that Gabriel is Good now by forgiving him and forgetting all his mistakes. Because Adrien forgave Gabriel and isn't Gabriel so wonderful now that he's made up for his mistakes and his victim has forgiven him and even looks up to him?

The main highlight of Gabriel's supposed redemption is the forgiveness of his victim, further highlighting the point that Adrien only existed as a character to push Gabriel's narrative, and not as a victim of abuse who is entitled to decide whether or not to forgive this man. Adrien did not forgive Gabriel because of a natural and believable development in his arc, he forgave him because he is ultimately a plot device to exposit about the current state of Gabriel's arc and to show the viewer what kind of a man Gabriel is, and Gabriel is good now, and so he must be validated through the forgiveness of his victim. Adrien is a prop in Gabriel's arc, who shows us the tragedy of Gabriel's fall and the future redemption of his "selfless sacrifice." His character that of "Gabriel's son," to take us through Gabriel's arc, and not a character of his own.

And since Adrien's ultimate end is to show that Gabriel is a good man after all, it also lends credence to the interpretation that, no, he is not traumatized after all. Nothing actually happened to Adrien himself, because he is only a plot device, not a character. He is there to let us know the tragedy of the man Gabriel. He is just there to let us know where Gabriel is in his arc. We see this in the way his development in just completely erased once Gabriel is "redeemed." His reactions don't make sense in the context of his arc, and it's OOC how he goes from calling out his father for who he is and then reverting back to worshipping him and forgetting all his flaws. But when you consider that the purpose of his character is less being his own character and more about highlighting and pushing forward Gabriel's arc, they make a lot more sense. His reactions don't make sense for the development that he has received throughout the season, but it makes sense if you consider that he is just a cog in Gabriel's story, and that his arc only matters as far as it affects Gabriel's arc. His struggles only matter as far as they affect Gabriel. Just like they only matter in the way they affect Marinette. Adrien doesn't get to learn anything, choose anything or even do anything if it is not about Marinette or Gabriel.

But to go back to the question at the beginning of the post, what purpose does it serve in Adrien's arc to have everyone he knows lie to him?

The answer is that Adrien does not have an arc.

Of course, it seems like he does. He does show some form of growth in calling out his father, so it would appear. But the arc of realizing his father is abusive, the arc of realizing that he deserves to make his own choices, that he deserves unconditional love... does not exist. He is only a plot device in the story, meant to be the motivation for the protagonist and the antagonist. Any arc or character complexity he has is largely accidental. His story about being a victim of abuse is unimportant and non-existent, and the show itself denies him agency and the ability to have any meaningful impact on the story outside of his role in the arcs of the main characters of the show. He has nothing of his own happening for him, he has nothing to do with his own life and family. All he matters for is to be the prop for Gabe's redemption and the prize for Marinette. His only role is to connect these two so that they can duke it out.

He has no autonomy, no agency, no nothing outside of being what Gabriel and Marinette need. We can scream until we're blue in the face about how Adrien feels the need to put on masks to please everyone and has been conditioned into believing his worth is based on pleasing others and that his emotions don't matter, and to be fair I will not stop making those analyses myself, but the fact remains that this is his narrative role. The narrative validates the abuser, both through the actions of the characters around Adrien and the framing of his arc. The characters around him don't treat him as a person as much as they treat him as Marinette's boyfriend, or as someone who doesn't get to make informed choices and should be kept in the dark because he is too emotional. The narrative treats him as a doll who must bend to the needs of the real characters with arcs and a story in the show, as a character who does not have agency and any value of his own beyond being what other characters need. His supposed development is only there to highlight Gabriel's fall. His own feelings and trauma are invalidated in favor of focusing on Marinette. Nothing he does is about him, it's about the main two characters in the show.

The show goes out of its way to remove him from the conflict. There are two episodes devoted to how he cannot ever find out about his father. He gets sprayed with nightmare gas. Fuck, even the only importance of him being a Sentimonster is to make sure that Adrien cannot find a way to break free of Gabriel's control and actually contribute to the plot. The Sentimonster plotline is mainly meant to make sure that there is no way that Adrien would be able to break free of Gabriel's control, hence he cannot take part in the final battle. Its very existence in the story boils down to being a convenient excuse for Adrien to not be a part of the finale. The only importance of the rings is ultimately so that Marinette can have a moment to slide it on his finger while ambiguously either giving him an order or not (I wouldn't be surprised if it was since the show doesn't seem to think mind control is wrong) to show that she's Good and Not Like Gabriel. The Sentimonster thing is textually a plot device to make characters unable to do anything because they physically can't. And it only serves to reduce Adrien into even more of an object, because he's now literally an object. The deeper ramifications of Adrien being a Sentimonster are never explored. It literally only exists to deprive Adrien of more agency so that Marinette can get into the spotlight. The only thing that matters about it is that it is now in the way of Adrienette, once more only focusing on how Adrien's issues affect Marinette.

Adrien is literally reduced to being a part of the magic slave race, because he cannot under any circumstance be a part of the finale and be the one to confront his abuser. And to a smaller extent, this is also the case for Felix and Kagami, two people who have a closer connection to the plotline beyond "fighting the guy who won't let me date my boyfriend." They are also Sentimonsters, and therefore have no choice but to rely on Marinette to save them and cannot fight alone even though Felix had no problem with that in the last season. The Sentimonster plotline is just an excuse to remove anyone with closer ties to Gabriel than his son's girlfriend from the conflict. Either they are working with Gabriel, or they are part of the slave race and cannot fight him, leaving only Marinette to do that for them. But like, at least Felix and Kagami got to make an informed choice about it without being lied to by everyone.

And this denial of abuse and the invalidating of Adrien's trauma leads to some pretty crazy abuse apologism for Gabe. And yes, reducing the impact of Gabriel's abuse, trying to pass him off as "just a man who loves his family," and denying the abuse that Adrien suffered throughout the show is in fact, abuse apologism. And the creators' insistence that Adrien was not emotionally mature enough to fight his father, being that this was the point of Chat Blanc all along apparently, also falls into this same trap of implying that abuse victims are not capable of making sound decisions and having autonomy over their own life, and isn't it so nice that Adrien is now Marinette's doll instead of being Gabriel's. It's victim blaming garbage, and it is frankly really gross. But in the narrative tells us what Gabriel has been telling us from day one about Adrien, that he is too emotional, that he must be protected, that he cannot make his own choices and his autonomy is better left in the hands of others, that his only purpose is to be a doll and a prop for the people around him. He only matters as far as he is useful to them.

And if you want to see the most damning example of Adrien being irrelevant outside his role as the motivation for the two people who actually drive what should be his story, look no further than Chat Noir.

Chat Noir is the only thing that indisputably belongs to Adrien. Chat Noir is him asserting his agency, his freedom, his choices. Chat Noir is his. And Chat Noir is not part of the finale. Not even in terms of physical presence. Chat Noir is an absolute non-entity in the finale. I'm not talking about Adrien; I mean Chat Noir. Chat Noir, who spent nine months fighting Monarch by Ladybug's side. Chat Noir, the owner of the Black Cat Miraculous. Chat Noir in Miraculous: Tales of Ladybug and Chat Noir, is missing in both body and mind from this final battle against his father. The one part of his life and the one part of the story where Adrien had any agency and autonomy of his own, was removed entirely from the finale. Chat Noir was reduced into nothing, to mean nothing. Because Ladybug only went there for Adrien and not to finish her and Chat Noir's fight.

Ladybug didn't fight Monarch in order to end their months-long crusade, she didn't acknowledge that Chat Noir was at least there with her in spirit, she didn't come to Monarch to put an end to the battle that they'd fought for so long with any intentions of at least wanting to carry his fight along with her to bring their enemy to an end, she wasn't there for both of them. She came there for Adrien. She came there to look for Adrien. And the symbol of Adrien's agency, Chat Noir's ring, was on her finger throughout her fight with his father over him. Chat Noir did not matter.

I'll say it again. Adrien had nothing. He was only a tool for Marinette and Gabriel. His role was to be passed on from Gabriel's clutches to Marinette's. And it paints a very bad picture that the one reduced to the role of the plot device is the abuse victim. And for anyone who doubts that Adrien is supposed to be Marinette's plot device, Thomas Astruc has helpfully made my point for me by tweeting that Adrien is Ken and Marinette is Barbie, and that we should just deal with it because it's not going to change. And I hope that this also makes it clear that we will not be dealing with the fact that Marinette is siding with her boyfriend's abuser and doing what he wants, because Marinette is always right, and Adrien doesn't get to have feelings that inconvenience her and only exists to prop her up.

The show makes it clear that he is just an object in the story from the way he's written as a damsel in distress who needs someone else to come save him, and this is taken even further by the fact that he is literally a puppet who can be mind controlled. It takes away Adrien's story of regaining autonomy and informs us that he was never supposed to have autonomy and never can, making it clear that he was never really supposed to have any arc of his own. He was never supposed to break out from his father. His end was to become Marinette's boyfriend and to worship Gabriel. Because that is how their arcs end, and their plot device must go along with it regardless of narrative implications or established characterization.

But that is Adrien's purpose in the show. For Marinette to beat the villain, and to receive his son as her prize for doing that. His abuse and trauma are secondary to Marinette's needs, and him being a victim of Gabriel's abuse is secondary to him being the vessel for Gabriel's redemption. He is only there to be a source of motivation for these two characters and to cater to their arcs. Marinette and Gabriel are the only ones who matter, who have agency in the story. Adrien is just a simple plot device to push their arcs, instead of having one himself. There is no arc for the abuse victim. He exists solely as an object, as property, as a damsel in distress, as a doll. There is no agency and autonomy for him in this story. And that is the unfortunate truth.

[buggachat]

lovesquare keeping secrets from each other conflict PART TWO LETS GOOOOOOOOOOOO

[reclamosmiraculersenspanish]

Solo se quejan del "Guionazo" cuando afecta a otros personajes que no son Marinette, peri si se trata de ella, mágicamente ella tiene control de sus acciones. OMG.

[sparklycamembert]

i must preface that i LOVE adrinette

however. i think between all the secrets that marinette is keeping and adrien still learning to navigate his new life, it’s not so far fetched that they begin to drift apart, all coming to a head in a falling out as the two struggle to open up?

not that they’d be angry with each other, just that they’d feel… unsettled. mutual understanding that they’re keeping things from each other until they can’t take it anymore. even in the illustrhater, we already see how marinette and adrien maintain the illusion of communication without really communicating, what with marinette admitting that she “tries to control everything” when she’s around adrien, while still fully meaning to keep his secrets from him. adrien even says, in the same scene(!!), that he’ll understand if marinette “no longer wants to be his girlfriend,” almost as if foreshadowing something?

personally, i want an adrinette break up sometime this season and i want it to TEAR MY HEART OUT. i’m talking a ridiculously dramatic sequence with rain, tears, near akumatisations, make them inconsolable. because gabriel’s gone and they should finally be free to love each other, except they’re not, they’re just burdened by different things now. meanwhile, ladynoir could be heartbroken Together, and maybe even confide in each other. aside from the ladynoir agenda, i think that’s also what’s best for adrinette’s long term relationship health because man do they both need to let off some steam.

and a good place to put the break up could be the habitual mid-season 2 parter… episode 11 revelator anybody? albeit it might be a little early on in the season, the foundation for it to work is already there and imagine the transmission parallels!

[familyagrestefanblog]

The existence of the Ox miraculous is such an unnecessary ugly detail when you think about Ladynoir and how Chat Noir served as the punching bag and scapegoat for Ladybug, Alya as Marinette's actual partner in season 4, and the whole team in every single way pre-s5

The Ox gives the power of immunity even against any other Miraculous power. One would think with Adrichat's self-harming tendencies that canon had Marinette make entirely about herself because "they're haunting her so much", and her still narratively entirely unchallenged tendency of leaving Chat Noir behind on the battle field as sacrifice or bait to possibly have whatever the hell done to him so she can be save and sound while she and everyone else can look and be cool on his expense

With all that, one would have thought that if Canon Marinette truly loved Chat Noir "sooooooo much" and is oh so haunted by his self-harming behavior and him always getting hurt so she sidelined him "for his own good"

Then how come at no point did Marinette do the actually caring thing by giving Chat Noir the Ox miraculous since he's ALWAYS left behind BY HER so she can leave the battle field and execute her plans with the others save and soundly? If her Chaton's well-being was oh so important to her and it always "pained her so much" to see him getting hurt then why was the Ox only used 2 insignificant times by Ivan at the end of season 4 when it could have saved Chat Noir ALOT of suffering all the way through?

Or the turtle. Or ANY OTHER Miraculous for that matter?

Why was Alya getting two miraculous in Hack-San perfectly fine with Marinette but heaven forbid Marinette is actually expected to ACT like she gives a damn about Chat Noir's well-being as his leader, guardian, partner, and friend and not just the show having her claim superficial words that hardly have anything to back them up once they actually have to mean something?

Its almost as if Canon inherently doubled down on having Marinette be the kind of leader who will only do things in a way that primarily benefit HER while everything else gets swept under the rug because she isn't maliciously intentioned and then never brought up again. And unfortunately it was her who was written to prioritize making an unnecessary team of 18 miraculous holders no one ever asked of her to form (Su-Han even told her NOT to give out the miraculous like candy),

so Marinette was just made to not consider Chat Noir either at all or simply not as worthy enough of any kind of consideration in her entire leadership/ guardianship or actual safety, support, or ANY KIND of resource since that wouldn't be narratively about her, now would it?

She can't have Chat have the Ox because she might need Ivan as Ox in 4 months and she doesn't want to have to ask Chat to get it back or end up NOT getting to use this ONE other Miraculous out of a whole ass box, because that would involve a basic ass conversation Marinette can't have apparently or her not getting to use all of the miraculous however she pleases at any given point

The horror. Now she would have only 14 miraculous to work with!

As per usual, count me fucking unimpressed by Marinette's writing. The negligence towards Chat Noir on even the most basic level is insane and she was declared the epitome of leadership and kindness for this.

Cool that Marinette already decided in her head that Ivan is suitable for the Ox miraculous and he should get it in future, but Chat Noir needing help and protection wasn't some theoretical case, it constantly happened right in front of her eyes and even by her own freaking orders too because she never thinks of him in ANYTHING and the show glorified the hell out of her as leader for doing all that

Why is looking into ANY detail only making Marinette's side of Ladynoir so much worse ever since season 4? There is no escaping this! Just don't add the Ox with this power or actually have Marinette be a good leader towards Chat Noir. But noooooooooo.

[forcebookish]

adrinette is clearly the inferior of all the two-person love square ships and yet this is the one they're focusing on?? after ladynoir had a shared dream where they GOT MARRIED??? all i wanted was marinette to find out that adrien likes ladybug but nooooooo like at least it's coming at a time when marinette is starting to understand her feelings for chat noir but PLEASE i want her to reject him because she realizes she has feelings for chat noir instead pleeeeeease 😭😭😭😭😭

[friendfromdsmp]

Is it only my impression, or in Miraculous Chat Noir is allowed to critizice Ladybug, but Ladybug is not allowed to criticize Chat Noir?

I completely agree and I think a big part of that comes down to the way the way the writers view Marinette and Adrien respectively; Marinette is supposed to learn a lesson in every episode and as she’s always been the one actively trying to advance the love square before the writers are ready for that, she has to fail often and make a lot of mistakes that are often played for comedy by the writers and the characters around her (before we’re suddenly told we’re now making fun of her trauma which is bad but I digress) whereas Adrien has always been considered by the writers to be ‘perfect’ and ‘he’s not flawed - the world is’, with even the characters in-universe referring to Adrien as ‘perfection personified’ and such

As a consequence, Marinette is often portrayed as in the wrong, even when the universe bends over backwards to make it so, whereas Adrien can’t be criticised and thus becomes a bit of a stagnant character because perfection doesn’t allow room to grow

I think that the LadyNoir dynamic does allow for playful criticism between the pair, granting us Ladybug banter such as “I’m not interested in your poetry, but I do find your foolishness incredibly powerful!”, “Because [the Ladybug Miraculous] requires a sense of responsibility~?”, “I had it under control *smacks Chat’s head* but thanks”, etc etc

But beyond the obviously playful banter that Chat returns in spades constantly, there’s definitely a theme of Chat Noir consistently mucking about in battle, often leading to either himself or someone else getting incapacitated or some other reckless and/or generally unhelpful issue caused, Ladybug getting annoyed at him and Chat giving some retort to poke fun at or pacify her rather than addressing the issue at hand. I mean, the start of Reflekdoll is a perfect example; Ladybug is calling Chat Noir out on pulling a prank in the middle of battle that almost caused her Lucky Charm to fail, with Chat Noir simply joking around and calling her no fun and a stick in the mud. I get that he’s not gonna be the most responsible and focused constantly, neither of them are, they’re fourteen. But there’s a difference between a quick pun while fighting and a prank on your partner while she’s already running on less than five minutes before she transforms back, trying to focus on a very serious problem and the prank being enough to put their entire mission in jeopardy. Play about and joke around all you want, we don’t care if you screw around on the job, but make sure you don’t actively work against said job while you do it!

And then afterwards the pair have a bit of a personality swap as well now that they swap Miraculous, with Adrien as Mister Bug being forced to step up since he now has the Miraculous that, in the nicest way possible, requires hard work and effort to use, whereas Marinette as Lady Noire is now freed from that burden and can use the comparatively simplistic power of just tapping whatever she wants to destroy and watching it happen, the most effort she has to put in with that is simply getting close enough to the desired object in order to touch it without touching anything else between activating her power and using it. So of course Mister Bug, used to slacking off and playing about, is a little overwhelmed in a situation where he’s the strategist rather than the support while Lady Noire, still a little annoyed by their earlier discussion, was happy to actively reverse the roles, taking time to play about and make quips at Mister Bug’s expense. Even making a joke that wearing the Black Cat suit/being in Chat’s role is “a lot lighter on the shoulders”, aka making a jab at Chat never having a sense of responsibility and thus the ‘weight being lifted off her shoulders’ now that she’s taking over his end of the load

The fan reactions to this episode were very telling; a lot of people were saying that Lady Noire was being rude and unhelpful and cruel to Mister Bug, which is hilarious since they actively, verbally clarified multiple times in the episode that both heroes were starting to act like each other now that the roles were reversed; Lady Noire was now “wearing the clown costume” and no longer a stick in the mud like Chat Noir complained about while Mister Bug “doesn’t have a sense of humour” and is no longer playing around and not taking things seriously mid-battle like Ladybug complained about

If they were simply acting like each other, why was Lady Noire considered rude and unhelpful for joking around mid-battle whereas Chat Noir is praised for being funny and keeping Ladybug from burning herself out by providing a supposed outlet to stress? If you complain about one, you have to complain about the other, especially since Lady Noire was still helping; she kept explaining how the Lucky Charm worked even when Mister Bug ignored her to prove he knew how to do this better than an experienced, specifically-selected wielder, she helped him think through the Lucky Charm by placing herself in Mister Bug’s shoes and attempting to adapt to his own thought process rather than hers, she repeatedly defended him from attacks while he was struggling to work out the mirror and yo-yo, etc. For all her sarcasm and salty quips, there was never a point where she left Mister Bug high and dry to fend for himself or sat by watching and flirting leisurely while he did all the work

I know I’ve focused a lot on Reflekdoll here since this is the most blatant example of the issue (being that Ladybug was in the right to criticise Chat for risking the fight over a prank while Mister Bug and some viewers criticising Lady Noire for being unhelpful was not only uncalled for but incorrect) but there are certainly many other examples I can think of in which MariBug is blamed for AdriChat’s actions or AdriChat criticises MariBug without good reason or MariBug is seen as rude or otherwise in the wrong for criticising AdriChat despite having legitimate grievances or not having all the info on a situation in which said info was impossible for her to know and/or actively kept from her. Season 4 is a goldmine for this but I know I always make incredibly long rambling posts so I’ll cut things short here, if the long ramble is what people are after feel free to ask for one

[theerurishipper]

This is just an unstructured, incoherent vent post, but I've seen a few posts recently about how Adrien would definitely forgive Marinette for keeping secrets from him because he loves her, or that he would blame himself for not noticing what was going on and not her. And those aren't wrong, per se, but this is what I mean by the show taking away Adrien's agency. Ultimately his choices are allowed only as far as they do not inconvenience Marinette or anyone else the narrative cares about, like Felix or Nathalie. Which is why Adrien is not allowed to grow, he is not allowed to prioritize his own feelings and emotional needs. Any wrong done to him is resolved by him putting aside his own feelings to forgive the people who wronged him. And yes, he has been taught that his feelings don't matter by Gabriel and that he should bend over to the whims of everybody around him. And that kind of makes it worse, how the effect of Gabriel's abuse is used to convenience everyone around him. I think it's gross.

Just look at the Ladynoir conflict from Season 4. Adrien brings up his grievances with Ladybug's treatment of him a few times, but ultimately, he ends up putting it aside to focus on her emotional needs when she is at her lowest. Kuro Neko gave us the message that it wasn't that Ladybug was treating Chat Noir unfairly, but that Chat Noir should stop expecting to be treated with respect and should stop having emotional needs. And at the end of Strikeback, nothing is resolved, Ladybug hasn't apologized to him or resolved to do better by him, but he still shows up to her side to comfort her. No, she didn't apologize to him. She admitted her mistakes but did little to correct them even after the fact. That whole arc ended with Chat Noir being treated poorly over and over, and yet coming back to Ladybug's side because he's such a good partner and he loves her so much.

And Adrien, a character who has been forced his whole life to bend to the whims of others to please them at his expense is doing the same thing to Ladybug. Adrien exhibiting this behavior is 100% a trauma response. Ladybug is supposed to be his escape from his abusive homelife. And yet, the show writes him falling back into his trauma responses with her (Kuro Neko) and does jack shit to portray it as a bad thing. And the Season 4 finale is once again Adrien putting aside his feelings and showing up to support her. Adrien's emotions are not validated, they are tossed aside. Ladybug admitted her mistakes as she did several times through Season 4, but she still did little to correct them. That admission in Strikeback doesn't do much, because we never see her do anything to fix her mistakes after that. What happened was that Chat Noir saw her in distress and decided his feelings were unimportant because she needed support.

This is not healthy. Adrien should not be invalidating his own feelings so that he can offer comfort to others. He shouldn't forget and forgive so quickly without the other person doing anything to correct their behavior towards him. Once again, this is how Gabriel has taught him to behave, to stop "being so emotional" and to conform to his expectations. And Adrien continuously downplays his own issues for others' sake. And obviously, we would understand that he can heal from this, that he can learn to take care of his own emotional needs first.

And quite frankly, all the posts about how we shouldn't want Adrien and Marinette to break up, or how we shouldn't be so hard on Marinette, or that she is just a child in tough situation, or that she is doing it out of love and that Adrien would forgive her kinda make my point. Because let's be real. What Marinette did is a serious breach of trust. I do not understand how anyone could forgive something like that quickly. And I understand why she did it. I don't think she is a bad person or anything like that. But it's still an awful thing to do. And frankly, I don't see how Adrien could just... instantaneously forgive her without invalidating and downplaying his own pain and hurt. If he did, I would seriously question his self-worth. And while I don't think Adrien would never forgive Marinette or that he would stop loving her, frankly, I would like to see more acknowledgement of his feelings and his emotional needs both from the fandom and the show. I would like to see that his feelings matter, that he is allowed to be angry and that he is allowed to hold people accountable and call them out. I would like for him to not forgive some people. I would like for him to require distance and space from them. That would be development for Adrien, to let himself be emotional and not feel the need to put his own needs aside for others.

But for Adrien to prioritize himself, it would mean acknowledging the harmful things characters like Marinette have done to him. And that can't happen, because all the purpose Adrien serves is as a plot device to connect Marinette to Gabriel, and actually having her be held accountable by the narrative for her choices is a big no no. Growth for Adrien would mean that he lets himself be angry at Marinette for how she kept secrets from him, never apologized for it, and ultimately ended up keeping the greatest secret of all from him about his father and the fact that he is a Sentimonster. But as the writing to this point shows, Marinette isn't a safe space for him where he is allowed to be himself. She is someone who also elicits his trauma responses from him. He doesn't let himself be angry with her, he always puts himself last when it comes to her.

I am not saying Marinette is in any way comparable to Gabriel. She is nowhere as bad as him, she does not come close to that in any way. Marinette is a good person. But what she did in the finale, is explicitly something that Gabriel wanted her to do. Gabriel wanted to continue to dictate his son's emotions and perceptions, and Marinette helped him do it. That's not a healthy relationship. And looking at all the Marinette-Gabriel parallels in Season 5... it's not a good look at all. The show portrays Adrien as someone who has been denied autonomy his whole life, and as someone who is expected to cater to the desires of the people around him and be perfect for them while neglecting his emotional needs, and made his arc one of finding independence and his own identity and learning that his feelings and desires matter. But also, they only matter as far as they don't inconvenience Marinette. Adrien shouldn't downplay his feelings, but if doing so would help Marinette, then he should do it actually. And it's hard for me not to see it as Ladybug benefitting from his trauma from his abusive home. It sounds harsh, but that's how it feels.

And all the talk of how Adrien would never hate Marinette and that he would forgive her is... disappointing to me. Because I don't necessarily disagree, but it still is about prioritizing Marinette's feelings over Adrien's. What is focused on is not how Adrien might feel betrayed, but how Marinette might feel sad about Adrien feeling betrayed by her, and reinforces that Adrien is so good because he would not hold it against her. Even though he should, even though it means he would be downplaying his pain massively if he didn't blame her for that. If Adrien's character should develop, he should be allowed to realize that he has the right to get angry and that he doesn't have to downplay his emotions or feel like it's all his fault. He should be allowed to do that without people jumping to Marinette's defense and excusing her of blame.

Throughout the series, Adrien has been the person to help Ladybug through her problems, and the narrative has never allowed her to do the same for him. And I want to see focus on Adrien for a change. I want to see someone other than Plagg reassuring him and supporting him, especially his partner. I want to see the narrative be less about "oh, Adrien would never hold anything against Marinette because he loves her and would understand her always," and be more "actually Adrien is allowed to prioritize his feelings and want distance from Marinette after she betrayed him in such a personal way." That would be development. That would be reclaiming his agency. That would be free will and autonomy. I would like to see focus on this in the show and the fandom.

Adrien is not obligated to forgive Marinette. He is not obligated to understand her reasonings for why she did what she did. He is allowed to be angry at her and express his hurt because of her actions. Seasons 4 and 5 have regrettably established Marinette as someone else who denies Adrien's agency and around whom he reverts back to his fawning trauma response, and quite frankly the best thing for him to do would be to break up with her and go find himself on his own terms. I want his character to develop and grow, and unfortunately, Seasons 4 and 5 proved to me that it would not be possible as long as he is around Marinette, both from a character and narrative standpoint.

I just wish people would acknowledge and validate Adrien's perspective and feelings more. Even if it means calling out Marinette. Gabe is Adrien's abuser but he isn't the only one who has hurt Adrien in the story. Marinette is an incredible and amazing person but as far as we've reached in the show, she is hurting Adrien. And she has done many things across these two seasons that violate Adrien's trust. It's not even that this is a mistake she could learn from, but that she has done several such things over and over. From keeping secrets about the Miraculous holders' identities even though Hawkmoth himself knew, to Rena Furtive, to trying to trick him into an identity reveal in Ephemeral, and now keeping the fact that he is a Sentimonster and that Gabe is Monarch from him. It's gone from secret keeping to outright lying to him. It is not healthy. And it is a sign of stagnation and regression in Adrien's growth if he continues to keep forgiving her over and over again despite her never fixing her behavior.

If Adrien's arc is about finding autonomy, then he cannot be with someone who is complicit in denying him the ability to make his own choices. If Marinette was supposed to be the knight in shining armor, they shouldn't have given her the key to the tower and have her hide it away. If she was supposed to save him, they shouldn't have had her condemn him further. If Marinette was supposed to be the one who helped Adrien regain his self worth, the person whom he could trust and rely on the most, they shouldn't have made her side with Gabe, deny Adrien his agency, and violate his trust so many times.

It didn't have to be written this way, but these were the decisions made by the writers. They chose to portray Marinette like this for no discernable reason and refused to acknowledge it or deal with it meaningfully. Adrienette is so profoundly unhealthy now that if Adrien's character is to grow, the only way for him to do that is to break up with Marinette. But the show has also made it very clear that Adrien is only a plot device and a trophy for Marinette at the end. So I have no doubt that all will be forgiven in a matter of minutes, and the narrative will praise Adrien for being traumatized and denying his own emotional needs to comfort Marinette as she feels bad for hurting him. And it's sad, but I guess it is what it is.

[theerurishipper]

I'll take a crack at it since I'm feeling spiteful about Adrien salters and their ridiculousness.

The entire first half of that deranged post is invalidated immediately since no, Adrien did not in fact know that Felix was Flairmidable.

Their criticism about Chat Blanc is overblown compared to what happened. Yes, he should have told her. No, he didn't take advantage of it to force her or trick her. And also, they seem to be blaming Adrien for Chat Blanc when they should be blaming Gabriel who was the one who actually akumatized his son after horribly traumatizing him? Are they suggesting it's Adrien's fault for getting akumatized? In that case, that's some deranged victim blaming shit right there. And what's that about Ladybug being blamed for the world being destroyed? That never happened lmfao, what is going on?

Are we stooping as low as to pick apart each episode and look at them in the most uncharitable light ever?

he doesn’t tell his partner that a civilian had tried to get her murdered by a volatile monster and only chastised her lightly, as if that would stop a budding serial killer

The fuck is this? Budding serial killer? Hello? Sure, now she is kind of, but back then she was just a manipulative piece of shit person. You want him to beat her up or something? He did in fact warn Ladybug about Lila before he left. And like, I'm sure Ladybug knows about Lila at this point.

And then they proceed to say Adrien is encouraging Lila to lie, and it's like, did you miss the part where Marinette was allowed back into school? Did they miss the part where he helped Marinette? What else was he supposed to do? Get Lila exposed so that she could get herself akumatized again and ruin everything for everyone? OP proved that Lila would run circles around them, congrats.

Yeah, sure, Adrien is to blame for not recognizing some random book he'd never seen before that even Plagg did not recognize. And the whole plot of Volpina started from him questioning why his dad had that book, and that's why he took it. And he didn't have an opportunity to look deeper into it or broach the subject with Ladybug because it got stolen and then Ladybug accused his father of being Hawkmoth. And once Gabe was exonerated, there was no need to question it further, was there? OP is reaching.

The New York special was a mistake he made, and the narrative acknowledges it, Ladybug calls him out for it. And ultimately things ended up okay, so there's no need to rake him over the coals for it. Ladybug has made her own fair share of mistakes.

"Left his ring on a random rooftop." Fucking hell. She said she would come back for it. She didn't mean it, but how was he supposed to know that? He thought she was being serious, and he gave up. "He left it on a random rooftop," this is from the show where these kids transform under benches and behind bus stops out in the open and these are considered sneaky and completely safe spaces to be transforming with bright lights. Random rooftops are perfectly safe as far as the show is concerned. That's literally the weirdest thing to focus on in that episode.

And again we are back to the deranged assumption that Adrien somehow knew Felix was behind that mask.

Like, this behavior has been a constant with his character for the entire show, but his awful personality is highlighted more during season four where he refuses to communicate his feelings to Ladybug and then acts out when she doesn’t comfort him.

You mean the time when he did try to voice his opinions and offer help but she shut him down? You mean when he did express displeasure at her secret-keeping and she never tried to fix it? Ladybug herself admits it, but her stans still don't get it ig.

And then has the gall, has the acrimony to claim that he was on her side, nevermind the fact that he had been insensitive to her problems, expecting her to drop her very important guardian duties just to soothe his protagonist complex, and smashing property (the infamous chimney scene) and nearly murdering Ladybug’s stand in in Hack San and basically being a massive dick that he wasn’t in the center of Ladybug’s universe.

Oh dear, the poor, poor chimney! However will it ever recover? Not like Ladybug's magic repaired it or anything!

And yeah, it's too much to ask for her to keep her partner in the loop about matters than concern him, his job, and his safety. Not like he attacked Scarabella because he thought she'd done something to Ladybug and stolen her Miraculous, which is not his fault because Ladybug forgot to mention that she'd given her Miraculous to someone else. Not like he always accepted her explanations, not like he offered to help her, and she rejected his offers and yelled at him. He could have communicated better but can you blame him for not doing that if she flips out at him when he does?

With his blatant hatred of sharing Ladybug with anyone, including the temporary heroes (who he knows are his friends. you can pry this fact from my cold dead hands), I would be less than shocked if he did this on purpose, and used Felix’s sly personality to do the dirty work for him, so he could swoop in and play the part of Ladybug’s savior. In conclusion, Cat Noir is a liar and a traitor who is willing to stay silent and ignorant of the world around him while forcibly cultivating his own rose tinted version and simultaneously defending his feelings from anyone and anything he feels threatened by viciously. And as usual, Ladybug/Marinette and everyone else has to pay the price.

So now Adrien's some manipulative mastermind à la Gabriel Agreste? This shit is wild as hell. Like, legit delusional. Media literacy is dead.

I saw this absolutely bonkers take and wanted to know what you thought. https://www.tumblr.com/stormiclown/687357871325839360/the-selfishness-and-destructive-jealousy-of-cat

There is so fucking much to unpack there I'm throwing out the whole fucking suitcase. Didn't think I'd see a worse take than that tiktok comapring Aizawa to Severus Snape(obligatory fuck jkr) today but damn you won the solid gold kewpie doll(a block).