#Ladynoir conflict salt

[familyagrestefanblog]

The existence of the Ox miraculous is such an unnecessary ugly detail when you think about Ladynoir and how Chat Noir served as the punching bag and scapegoat for Ladybug, Alya as Marinette's actual partner in season 4, and the whole team in every single way pre-s5

The Ox gives the power of immunity even against any other Miraculous power. One would think with Adrichat's self-harming tendencies that canon had Marinette make entirely about herself because "they're haunting her so much", and her still narratively entirely unchallenged tendency of leaving Chat Noir behind on the battle field as sacrifice or bait to possibly have whatever the hell done to him so she can be save and sound while she and everyone else can look and be cool on his expense

With all that, one would have thought that if Canon Marinette truly loved Chat Noir "sooooooo much" and is oh so haunted by his self-harming behavior and him always getting hurt so she sidelined him "for his own good"

Then how come at no point did Marinette do the actually caring thing by giving Chat Noir the Ox miraculous since he's ALWAYS left behind BY HER so she can leave the battle field and execute her plans with the others save and soundly? If her Chaton's well-being was oh so important to her and it always "pained her so much" to see him getting hurt then why was the Ox only used 2 insignificant times by Ivan at the end of season 4 when it could have saved Chat Noir ALOT of suffering all the way through?

Or the turtle. Or ANY OTHER Miraculous for that matter?

Why was Alya getting two miraculous in Hack-San perfectly fine with Marinette but heaven forbid Marinette is actually expected to ACT like she gives a damn about Chat Noir's well-being as his leader, guardian, partner, and friend and not just the show having her claim superficial words that hardly have anything to back them up once they actually have to mean something?

Its almost as if Canon inherently doubled down on having Marinette be the kind of leader who will only do things in a way that primarily benefit HER while everything else gets swept under the rug because she isn't maliciously intentioned and then never brought up again. And unfortunately it was her who was written to prioritize making an unnecessary team of 18 miraculous holders no one ever asked of her to form (Su-Han even told her NOT to give out the miraculous like candy),

so Marinette was just made to not consider Chat Noir either at all or simply not as worthy enough of any kind of consideration in her entire leadership/ guardianship or actual safety, support, or ANY KIND of resource since that wouldn't be narratively about her, now would it?

She can't have Chat have the Ox because she might need Ivan as Ox in 4 months and she doesn't want to have to ask Chat to get it back or end up NOT getting to use this ONE other Miraculous out of a whole ass box, because that would involve a basic ass conversation Marinette can't have apparently or her not getting to use all of the miraculous however she pleases at any given point

The horror. Now she would have only 14 miraculous to work with!

As per usual, count me fucking unimpressed by Marinette's writing. The negligence towards Chat Noir on even the most basic level is insane and she was declared the epitome of leadership and kindness for this.

Cool that Marinette already decided in her head that Ivan is suitable for the Ox miraculous and he should get it in future, but Chat Noir needing help and protection wasn't some theoretical case, it constantly happened right in front of her eyes and even by her own freaking orders too because she never thinks of him in ANYTHING and the show glorified the hell out of her as leader for doing all that

Why is looking into ANY detail only making Marinette's side of Ladynoir so much worse ever since season 4? There is no escaping this! Just don't add the Ox with this power or actually have Marinette be a good leader towards Chat Noir. But noooooooooo.

[miraculousalt]

Love how the S5 finale proofed that Adriens life rlly is just handwoven away in the terms LadyNoir was set by Marinette thru season 4. If Chats life threateningly endangered as civilian o in th hands of villains & in desperate need of help physically an emotionally hes not allowed to ask for Ladybugs help n shouldnt expect bein worth gettin help from any1 else of the 70 billion heros on their side either. bc him gettin help equals "leaving LB high and dry and selfishly asking too much of her". His worth in this partnership depends on how little he inconveniences Ladybug. How lovely.

Chats job on LBs side s rlly just to be the 1 team member Marinette has no obligations towards n flawlessly takin care of her while hardly askin anything in return but owing her to remain all isolated n endurin whatever civilian problems he has by himself if something happens. Which it did. Adrien was locked up ina diffrent country under constant monitoring of Monarch an Tomoe who stands above Gabriel & was put thru agonizing nightmares on purpose so Adrien gives in, puts on the alliance ring n stayed completly @ Tomoes mercy while bein kept unconscious by the ring. That woman could have done anythin she wanted to Adrien once Gabriel failed his mission. Adriens purpose in her eyes IS her deal with Gabriel.

But hey it's fine. Marinette made sure Adrien understands that HE needs no help bc thats HER privilege & if he ever needs it it betta be solvable for her with a band-aid slapped on a open wound or a quick save. If its more or even *gasp* inconvenient for her then Adrien owes LB to die quietly n alone. & that Adrien did so nicely didnt he? Complete refusal to ask for any help cuz poor Ladybug can only be ina partnership with her isolated anonymous partner if she gets all the benefits, a second partner behind his back & Chats acceptance that his suicidal tendencies are not her problem. Cuz thats what Adrien did in the finale. He gave up fightin & gave away his only way of escapin or reaching help on the outside thru Plagg.

Cuz well, Unlike Ladybug Adrien actlly has to follow all the rules forced on them bc LB said she gets to be the exception to evrything but hes selfish if he steps one foot out of the line she sets o reinforces.

Thx S5 finale for makin clear what the priorities r in this partnership. This is so fucking awful but I guess it does validate why I lost all respect for Ladybug an her leadership in this "partnership" in season 4.

The LadyNoir terms Marinette "lovingly" beat in Adriens head r nothin short of glorified abandonment. And when evry danger in Adriens civilian life did eventually end up gettin him its good to know that LadyNoir was settled for good in the Ladybug biased way that Chat thinks it's his responsibility to give up on himself an rather wither away in the prison that is Adriens life before asking a single thing from his partner.

Fucking amazing. & of course Marinette gets to teach it to children for almost a decade as a GOOD thing! Guess theres rlly not much else to expect from Marinette an her stories morality.

[familyagrestefanblog]

Would you believe me when I tell you that this line is 1000x worse in the French original?

Cause it is:

Marinette is apparently so unwilling and desperate to have been nothing else but the flawless and benevolent leader she decided that she is, that in the French original she was written to be borderline delusional about Chat's position in her team.

Her saying that "her not always calling on him not meaning that she doesnt need him at all" is straight up out here having Marinette settle the Ladynoir conflict in nothing but her favor by looking into Chat Noir's eyes and expecting gratitude for pretending like he's for real a temp hero she just unintentionally didnt call upon for a while.

And she's doing that when she at the beginning of the episode literally didnt react for a longer period of time in any responsible way to Chat Noir not showing up anymore. It's a consistent thing in "Kuro Neko" that Marinette makes herself out to be such a kind leader and soul for basically "allowing" Chat Noir to take a break, when literally nothing of the sort happened.

She wasnt asked for permission by Chat Noir to get a break. He didnt let her know that he's extremely busy currently and therefore might not be able to come to the battles like in "Ephemeral" (where Marinette gave 0 fucks about WHY Chat Noir couldnt make it, anyway. She just cut him off when he wanted to explain on the phone because it's irrelevant to her), she wasnt asked for permission by the universe if she authorizes something having happened to Chat Noir as civilian, and Hawkmoth doesnt have to ask for her permission either to have caught Chat Noir behind her back (which is literally what happened in "Ephemeral" too)

Non of the things that Marinette canonically tells herself she did or she's owed by Chat Noir and the universe were in anyway true or even rational to expect to be treated as true.

And yet the show decided to have her settle the Ladynoir conflict in nothing but her favor by Chat Noir having to take all the blame, thank her, and accept being treated like her favorite pile of dirt because she declared herself above any kind of effort or basic moral standards as his leader, guardian, partner, and friend.

She is literally LYING in his face with a smile by claiming that her not always CALLING upon him doesnt mean she doesnt mean she doesnt want him around at all. When in reality she doesnt fucking call upon him AT ALL since he has been a full time miraculous holder since day 1 and she as the flawless and divine leader she demands to be treated as at that point should be aware of that!

The vagueness of these words are so disgusting because they are just flexible enough that Adrichat can be written to not call her out for her blatantly twisting reality to declare herself flawless on his expense, because you can stretch their meaning into demanding that she meant by "calling upon him" that she doesnt always need him to do something when he's around.

Only that that is so obviously NOT what these words mean, and especially not in the given context. She went above and beyond throughout the episode to justify in every way possible why she's flawless and KIND for not reacting in any responsible way to Chat Noir not showing up anymore

and ended the episode by basically audaciously looking into Chat Noir's eyes and treating his prior absence (and therefore her massive failure to give a rat's ass about his safety and life) as if the most she did wrong was not giving him his miraculous every time like the "other" temp heros because she was so stressed™ and busy™ that she forgot™ to give him the "special treatment" "that she doent owe™ him in the first place anyway".

May I also remind you all that this is the same episode where Marinette lets a random Cat Charming she met 10 minutes ago - and who should have no fucking opinion on ANY of this from her perspective - tell her that she has been the most amazing and flawless person ever, that she did nothing wrong, Chat's just a too sensitive and ungrateful of a bitch, while she "treats everyone equally" (something Marinette KNOWS isnt true. Alya was treated LEAGUES better than everyone else, including Chat Noir bc Marinette doesnt think he's worth any effort apparently, which is still true in s5 in every way that actually MATTERS) so the fair thing is HERSELF being pampered and worshiped by him now. All while he insulted and disregarded Chat Noir who Cat Charming never once met, but Marinette didnt care about that whatsoever.

'Princess Justice' my ASS.

Apparently, any random DIPSHIT can walk up to her and tell her whatever she wants to hear and she'll just go with it as long as she's validated in her feelings, lies and excuses (wow, would you look at that, the narrative made Marinette Lila 2.0)

This is also the same episode where Marinette initially says that she's unfortunately so BLAMELESS in Chat Noir's pain that she couldnt BARE give him back his miraculous because there would be nothing blameless little her could do to prevent him from being in the same position again that hurt him so much :'(

Only for her to throw that entirely out of the window at the end and just abused her guardian position to order Chat Noir to return without any indicator that he regrets having left in the first place. Only to blame EVERYTHING on him, make him settle for deserving NOTHING and that she doesnt owe him any consideration, support, help, resources, nothing. Considering she literally ignored his existence when they met up until he took all the blame upon himself so she had to take non.

But HE should be grateful that she even has the heart to want him back since she makes it very clear that HE should blame himself for EVERYTHING. Since anything but that would have required a fraction of actual accountability, and she couldn't have that apparently.

Not to mention the fact that Marinette genuinely thought for a while that Kuro Neko was Chat Noir akumatized as a civilian and not at any point in the whole episode - scratch that, the whole rest of the SHOW - put together that this would have meant that Hawkmoth fucking FOUND CHAT NOIR.

Instead, Marinette was canonically too busy throwing a pitty party for herself because she for real was written to think that she herself and her poor guardianship are the biggest victims in this whole scenario.

She was UPSET that it wasnt him! There was no relief that Chat Noir was spared that fate because he was never even relevant enough in her head to possibly having noticed by then that Chat being akumatized as civilian is BAD for more reasons than her having made a fucking mistake!

But nah, we NEVER get that. All Marinette is ever written to do in this episode was making clear to herself, Cat Walker, and the audience to understand that SHE is the biggest victim in the scenario of Chat Noir having been akumatized as civilian AND him having left out of hurt.

Or else she wouldn't have put her desire to have him back over his hurt feelings, his basic right to leave a situation he himself deems to hurtful to stay in because he can make his own DECISIONS and wasn't supposed to be her SLAVE (which Marinette canonically sure acts like HE OWES HER because she can't be asked to self-reflect), and then literally made him take the blame for everything and accept that he OWES her to put up with every pain that's inflicted upon him because Ladybug refused to settle for anything less than EVERYTHING she does to him being the kindest and most justified things anyone has ever done.

By the end of "Kuro Neko" there sure was nothing left of Marinette oh so loving intention of not wanting to put Chat Noir in the same painful position. It's almost like she pulled that out of her ass because she needed an excuse towards Plagg for why she's BLAMELESS, but the moment it actually mattered all she cared about was her getting her PET back

(because that's all she treated him as. A HUMAN has the right to leave, but a PET can be forced back which Marinette does in both Kuro Neko AND Kwamis Choice without a single shit being given if he WANTS to return, if he CAN and what happened. She doesn't even ask PLAGG in the later whatsoever, she just forces the ring back on Chat Noir without caring what made him do it. For all she knew, it had something to do with his guilt for cataclysming Monarque, which she btw as leader, guardian, and partner just completely refused to do her JOB towards him in any capacity. Literally, no shits GIVEN)

And, well, that didn't get any better in the rest of season 5 either. In season 5 she still sees no problem with not caring about Chat as a real person whatsoever beyond proofing Alya wrong in how "pure" her love for him is (while she herself is being emotionally taken care of by Alya who she still treats as her real partner she just can't be with as hero, while Marinette leaves Chat Noir all isolated and with no help or resources whatsoever. Remember, this is her being "kind" apparently. Since anything else would require acknowledging that Marinette is still scapegoating Chat Noir for her personal benefit and comfort. Take your pick.), and then in "Elation" she still considered his identity as so non-existent or simply irrelevant that she was willing to get akumatized, become his enemy and give Hawkmoth his identity herself because she was

*checks notes*

being romantically rejected by him ONCE.

An akumatization ADRICHAT had to prevent by completely disregarding the only boundaries he ever got to set with her in over 4 seasons - cause OF COURSE she didn't care about those because Maribug never accepted that SHE has to respect Chat and his boundaries too and not just make everything about herself by "deciding" what his boundaries and basic rights are however she pleases at any given moment to her personal benefit, which she's written to thinks she's owed as "morally sound feminism and leadership".

No SHIT she almost turned into his enemy the moment he didn't let her have her way with him however she wanted, that's all their dynamics have ever lead up to.

No SHIT she was already ready to give up her Miraculous before Plagg initiated his plan and never once cared if it was at least Scarabella again - after HACK-SAN - who Chat Noir will be meeting out of the blue, and who has to tell him that him having rejected her once lead to her immediately leaving and making his worst fear come true he literally told her about! She should be GLAD that he left, too, because her side is WORSE.

And definitely more points I just dont remember right now from on top of my head.

---

Conclusion: Anon, you are 100% valid for feeling stressed out by how that episode ended, how it was never fixed, and how Adrichat therefore then ended in the s5 finale in the only way such an awfully one-sided "partnership" could leave him ending up.

There's part of me that wishes you still in ml fandom because there's something that bothered me to no end about Kuro Neko episode in s4, about the whole episode in general but especially so about what Ladybug said at the end of it.

Just because I don't need you all the time doesn't mean that I don't need you at all, Cat Noir.

I couldn't picked out why it's bothering me so much like it should be assuring because she means well, right? but it just make my anxiety skyrocketed?? Maybe it just my weird brain I don't know.

I suppose I'm in the Miraculous saltdom now. Almost everything I say qualifies as salt, but it's also peer support for the people who were let down by this show's retooling.

I think I might have said something about Kuro Neko at some point, because I was, like, still checking out what scenes the fandom posted about the most whenever a new episode dropped during season four. It's what made me realize that Miraculous is a subtanceless show that puts singular moments above having actually consistent themes or story arcs.

I think it was a shitpost about me getting New York Special flashbacks from that line from Marinette, because one of the several things about the New York Special that I have criticized was the fact that it places Cat Noir's usefulness to Ladybug over her care for him.

The thing that brings Cat Noir back to Ladybug in the New York Special wasn't her saying she cares about him, that she wants him around because he's important to her, it was her saying she needed him, that she couldn't be Ladybug without him. Rather than giving Cat Noir words of affirmation, Ladybug unintentionally pressures him with the fate of the world.

It made their reunion hug ring extremely hollow to me.

From what I've heard, Kuro Neko is basically just more of the same. Like, the only improvement is that she lessened the pressure, but it's still about her needing him and not her wanting him. Ladybug's words basically translate to: "you're not as essential as you used to be, but you quitting would still make this job needlessly hard for me," which still aren't words of affirmation.

This guy is her partner and she can't manage the bare minimum of emotional connection and vulnerability to tell him she likes him and wants him around.

No, I don't think you getting anxious about Ladybug pressuring her partner into sticking around over telling him how she feels about him is weird. It's a red flag.

[theerurishipper]

Ladynoir and (In)Equality

For me personally, the most important thing in any relationship is that both partners are equals in that dynamic. I think that's a reasonable expectation to have. And Ladynoir did fulfill that requirement for me in the first 3 seasons. Even though Ladybug did most of the leadership stuff by making the plans and directing Chat Noir on what to do, it was understood that this was a mutual agreement. They both understood what they were good at, and their dynamic evolved accordingly. Chat Noir was content to follow her lead and Ladybug was content to make the plans and direct Chat Noir.

Season 2 saw the introduction of the inequality that shattered this balanced dynamic between the two, and quite frankly the later seasons only made it worse. It started in Syren, as we all know, where Chat Noir first expressed his displeasure at being left out of the loop when Ladybug was privy to important information that was being kept from him. Of course, Master Fu arrived to barely smooth things over before the issue was dropped for the season and never brought up again. Their dynamic remained as it was, but the cracks began to form here.

The introduction of Ladybug being the Guardian in Season 4 changed this established dynamic, obviously, and Ladybug began to give the Miraculous out to other holders. Keeping Chat Noir out of the loop began to become her MO, and she effectively replaced him with Rena Furtive in all but name. The central conflict of the season was the cracks forming in their relationship because of her new responsibilities and her secret keeping. And the resolution to this, as stated in Kuro Neko and Risk, is that even if he's no longer her partner, she still likes him best.

Now, the previous Ladynoir dynamic was one of equality, where they knew their roles and acted upon them. They were equals, and Ladybug's leadership in their pair was an informal one, one that was mutually agreed upon by them. The introduction of the Guardian role for Ladybug changes this from a mutually agreed upon dynamic to one where Ladybug is, for all intents and purposes, his boss. She is officially his leader, in the sense that if she so wished, he would be obliged to hand his Miraculous over to her. In the sense that she would be well within her rights to replace him if she so desired (which she does do). She is his superior, and he is no more important than the other temporary holders, with the sole exception that he holds his Miraculous permanently (which has now been exacerbated by the fact that all of them are permanent holders now).

Chat Noir received a demotion for no fault of his own, which he did not want, and someone else was promoted to replace him in the position he once occupied. Rena Furtive is Ladybug's special partner. Chat Noir is not Rena Furtive's equal, and he is definitely not Ladybug's equal.

This is not about a woman making more money than a man. She isn't just more successful than him, and this isn't about him being insecure about her being better than him. The problem is that Ladybug is Chat Noir's direct superior, and she has power over him. She has the power to call him when she needs him, and if not him, she'll get someone else. She has the resources to figure out his identity without him being none the wiser. She has the power to replace him if she wishes. Far be it from him to allow her to lead of his own accord, now he is obliged to follow her orders. She has the power to control what he knows and how he acts, and she has the power to keep vital information from him.

None of this is inherently "bad." But when you look at it from the context of them being on a path to a romantic relationship with each other, that's where the problems begin. Two people in a relationship should not have a dynamic where one has so much power over the other. Ladybug has so much power that she is able to slide a third teammate into their partnership and slowly push him away from his role at her side. She, quite unfortunately, can and has abused his trust because she had the resources to do so. The only opportunity he had in Season 4 to make his own choices that were not dictated by Ladybug's rules was when he quit. The final takeaway from this Ladynoir conflict is that Chat Noir is her favorite subordinate now (because Rena Furtive has replaced him), and just because they aren't equals anymore doesn't mean she doesn't want him around.

And, no, this was not corrected in Season 5. Season 5 was a return to their original dynamic, not because Ladybug and Chat Noir worked around this new shift in their relationship to find a way to overcome this new power imbalance. It's because Ladybug's power was forcibly taken away from her by a third party, and the only reason Chat Noir is her special partner again is because there is no one else left. But the end of Season 5 sees everyone come back, as permanent holders no less, and Chat Noir is once again demoted to his role as "just another holder like any other."

With the establishment of the Ladybug and the Black Cat Miraculous as two halves of a duo, equals in power, you'd expect them to be, well, equals. Me being upset about the inequality of these characters isn't with regards to screentime, or my wish for Adrien to be the main character or anything. My wish is for Adrien to be a character of his own. My wish is for the show to stop promoting such unhealthy dynamics as cute and fine. If they had simply made Adrien's role out to be the love interest, if they had just literally made him Ken who is content with just being Barbie's trophy boyfriend from the very beginning, if that was all his role has ever been and was meant to be from the start, I wouldn't be complaining so much. But the one they reduced into the role of Marinette's prize, the one over whom she has so much power, is the abuse victim whose arc is about self-actualization. And it paints a very disturbing picture. That far be it from Chat Noir to expect any kind of equal treatment from Ladybug, he's going to have put aside any discomforts or issues he has with their relationship to settle for being her favorite by virtue of nostalgia.

And it's just... bad, on a narrative level. Despite its ambitious introduction of so many plot points, the focus of this show has always been its romance. The main narrative goal of the series is for Ladybug and Chat Noir to get together. So, when your narrative hinges on these two characters getting together, and you decide to introduce such a power dynamic into the mix, saying "I still like you," isn't the fix that it's cracked up to be. If they are supposed to be the relationship around which the show is built, Chat Noir should be Ladybug's special partner, he should be her equal and not just another holder whom she likes better than everyone else. Ladynoir's relationship is directly tied to their partnership, and their dynamic as partners is the basis for any future romantic relationship between them. Introducing such an inequality between them in their partnership does affect their ability to be able to get together, and not in a good way.

This isn't a bad plot point. I like Ladybug being the Guardian, I like that they didn't just brush off the fact that there would be some changes in their dynamic. What I dislike is the way it was resolved, with Ladybug essentially saying that they would never be equals but she still likes him. A power imbalance does not a healthy relationship make. Ladynoir do not have a relationship where they are both completely aware of everything they should know. Chat Noir really cannot do anything in their dynamic, because Ladybug has all the control over everything. It's Ladybug controlling this information and Chat Noir accepting that he'll never be treated the way he wants to be treated, because he's been conditioned to believe his feelings don't matter. And she never did end up correcting this, and the conflict as it is ended with him forgiving her for everything even though she never apologized, and accepting that this is how it's going to be.

And it's not good. This isn't the Ladynoir I signed up for, honestly. I signed up for the Ladybug who accepted Chat Noir unconditionally and the Chat Noir who supported Ladybug through everything. I did not sign up for Ladybug trying to pull a Gabe and Chat Noir only being her emotional support who suppresses his own needs for her. The Ladynoir conflict and its less than satisfying resolution caused irreparable damage to the Ladynoir dynamic (it's irreparable because the writers don't see a problem with it and so they'll never fix it), and this has only continued into Season 5, which said "why fix it when I can make it worse."

[reclamosmiraculersenspanish]

Zull memes: La página de Facebook obsesionada con Marinette Dupain-Cheng.

Me sigue sorprendiendo lo mucho que la odian. Sobre todo en grupos de Facebook en español. yo entendería que ya, les cayera mal, está bien. Pero literalmente hay una página de Facebook llamada Zull memes, que se dedica a tiempo completo a tirar hate.

Antes me molestaba, pero a veces decían cosas ciertas. Sin embrago, de un momento a otro, empezaron a exagerar cosas, cambiando guiones solo para "Menospreciar" al personaje.

Llegando al punto de compararla con Amber Heard, cuando estaba el tema del juicio de Jonny Depp, la misma Amber que se cagó en la cama de su novio. ¿Sí se dan cuenta que no es normal?

Y la gente puede decir, bueno, son solo memes. Pero no, tienen detrás a una bola de fans tóxicos, que menosprecian y encasillan a cualquier fan de Marinette.

Además, desinforman, por culpa de la influencia que tiene en la gente los memes, muchos hasta creen los guiones cambiados que a veces ponen.

Recientemente otra página publicó cosas similares a lo que se burlaba Zull memes, desde las cosas más normales, hasta las más exagerada. Pero en contra de Chloe, la adorada y justificada de la página. Y se ardieron sus seguidores.

Eso demuestra que son iguales de inmaduros que a los fans que tanto critican. Realmente Miraculous no debió volver tan conocida. Atrajeron a un montón de fans tóxicas e inmaduras.

[iwasbored777]

I disagree with that salt take that the writers are "humiliating" Marinette but I do agree that the earlier seasons didn't work as good on her emotional side of character like the most recent ones. They didn't take her this seriously and in most cases not seriously at all and that's crystal clear but I don't think they humiliated her. But she lacked that idk how to say it but they didn't work on the audience to feel her, like now. Before I just loved her but I didn't feel her, I understood her and I could relate to her but I couldn't feel her. Now I can. I think it was season 3 where they actually took turns with writing her, maybe that's why i liked that season so much. Despite giving her character development, they gave her depth that's hard to achieve and finally they do it right. Like if there is one thing I have to praise season 3 finale for it's this.

[familyagrestefanblog]

It's posts like this that actually leave me really saddened now Ladynoir wise because this should be a perfectly fine explanation if s4 and s5 hadn't ruined it with that one-sided morality.

Cause, yes, Adrien's timing is and always was indeed a factor in this. But it completely glosses over the fact that Marinette has NEVER held back one bit on taking all her emotions out on Chat Noir however aggressive and strongly as she pleases in any given moment

(at least she got better in season 5, but it's not like that's hard. The bar for Maribug's scapegoating treatment of Chat Noir is literally in hell thanks to s4 and in s5 Adrichat already behaves like a perfect care taker for her, not challenging her in any way anymore since ANYTHING can cause her to revert back to her old treatment of him as we see in "Elation", "Revelation" and "Derision" and there she never takes accountability for her actions either because, no shit, she never learned anything)

After these two past seasons just saying "she doesn't hate him and his jokes, she just hates his TIMING" feels like a conveniently vague excuse for why she can't and should never EVER be held accountable for her own unnecessary aggressive behavior. Because this way you can just adjust that excuse to any given canon scenarios where Maribug reacted unnecessarily badly (which, spoiler alert, happened ALOT) and put the blame ONLY on Chat Noir for his "bad timing"

Despite it not rarely having been Marinette who reacted inconsistently to Chat's jokes instead of only Adrien having inconsistent timing for when he jokes.

It is difficult and In my opinion even NOT manageable for Adrien to have only joked around when the timing 'was right' pre-s5, because the show was making it very clear that Marinette will decide what is and isn't bad timing deserving of violence and insults entirely subjectively and on a whim in her head each and every time.

Pre-s4, the two factors of Adrien's bad timing and Marinette's bad reactions not only as good as balanced each other out, there was also still the hope that Maribug's part in this would also be addressed accordingly. It's not just Adrien's timing, it was also Marinette unnecessarily going off on Chat Noir for something that happened in her private life and is therefore emotionally affecting here negatively to be more on edge, or literally anything that puts her off on the battle field that isn't even him but he's the next best and easiest thing to take it out on because she ironically doesn't want to treat her real friends the way she does Chat Noir.

This was always a TWO-sided problem which now received a 100% ONE-sides "solution", while completely sweeping under the rug how alarmingly comfortable Marinette got with reducing Chat Noir to be her suffer puppet the moment anything happened that she doesn't like, or even just for fun and entertainment sometimes.

Frankly, one should rather ask why the show had her entirely STOP treating him that way in season 5 since she was always portrayed as justified and blameless and even KIND for making him her rag doll in every previous season, no matter what context.

It's almost as if she WAS an asshole for how badly she dehumanized Chat Noir and took her every little whim out on him to completely unnecessary dehumanizing degrees, but the show is chickening out on teaching girls that they have to take accountability for their aggressive actions and behavior too, by just having her "coincidentally" stop entirely too after Chat was being forced into being her perfect half-human care taker (since it's not like she is written to actually acknowledge that Chat's a FULL HUMAN BEING underneath the mask).

Cause if she were to have continued now in season 5, the show couldn't have kept on pretending like Marinette herself and her unnecessarily escalating violent tendencies towards Chat were never part of the problem in this, since Adrichat HAS to be perfect now or else the love square can't function to Marinette's benefit.

So "coincidentally" Marinette is suddenly capable of treating Chat and his body as if she for once believed there are actual human rights attached to him even if he still displays alot of the same behavior now as before in season 4. It's just that Marinette is now suddenly depicted too in alot of these cases with changed behavior to not immediately go off on him or turn him 'lovingly' into a rag doll anymore, which Marinette stans and fans are writing this off as Adrien "finally" having learned his lesson because that's the only way they wanna acknowledge Marinette's changed treatment of him.

This had no business becoming a moral dilemma but it became one when the show had Maribug make it VERY clear all through the entirety of season 4 that SHE as a leader must be treated with 100% respect, care, and basically blind obedience and unconditional submission no matter what she does, but can do to Chat Noir almost whatever she pleases in any intensity she feels like at any point for whatever reason she likes.

No matter how violent, neglective and humiliating and dehumanizing, shes ALWAYS more justified than not and never actually in the wrong because any emotional whim is excuse enough for doing so. On top of having her make it clear that HE is for 90% of the episodes 100% responsible for ANYTHING bad she does to him and what happens to him.

So if he doesn't want her to scream, insulting, humiliate or hurt him, then HE has to make sure HE doesn't exist near here in any way that might provoke such reactions from her. And what exactly that means Marinette ALSO got to decide entirely subjectively and on a whim in her head each and every time.

Because Adrichat was made 100% responsible for Maribug's treatment of him and season 5 doubled down on that ridiculously hard (regarding the ENTIRE love square), even though in pre-s5 Ladynoir one literally had to sometimes start hoping and preying taht Maribug won't use Chat Noir as her emotional and physical punching bag again, even completely unrelated to anything he did, because that was honestly to a solid degree simply the norm of her treatment of him.

So, her actions and behavior were basically declared NOT her own (which is a running theme in all of season 4 and 5), she has hardly any accountability to take (and therefore hardly does in a non-vague way), cause the show decided that she is always "MADE" to do the bad stuff by everyone else (but ESPECIALLY Chat Noir) while simultaneously you're not allowed to truly acknowledge that anything she ever did was actually bad in the first place which leaves us in an incredibly paradoxical position.

But yeah, sure, it's only "Adrien's bad timing"

How about Marinette had plain obvious anger issues she took out on Chat Noir however she pleased because the show declared her ever whim as the new righteous foundation of reality, and then had her suddenly stop in season 5 because at that point they couldn't blame it on Adrien anymore and therefore it would have required actual accountability from her which the show wants to avoid like the fucking plague.

_

Not to mention the hypocrisy of Kagami getting to rightfully break up with Adrien for lying to her and making excuses to sideline her despite it having an understandable enough reason since he has a double life as Chat Noir, and Maribug having done all of that on a much worse scale to Chat Noir in season 4 by involving Alya on his expense the way she did

Not only was she basically declared above almost any moral standards regarding scapegoating and neglecting him in favor of making Alya her new main partner who gets everything on his expense and entirely behind his back while he's stuck with nothing and remains all isolated in the dirt so Ladybug and the rest of the team can look cool

The show then also demanded taht she gets rewarded with gratefulness for it in "Kuro Neko" because she's allowing him to exist near her and that's all he's worth in Ladynoir apparently whne it comes to actual honesty and consideration. Even in season 5 Maribug barely improved on this after "Evolution" when she wasn't straight up forced to.

Because unfortunately in Canon, Marinette is to 90% dishonest and secretive on Chat's expense in Ladynoir and it's just declared fine because its her and she benefits from it.

Seriously, the way Adrigami was handled makes Ladynoir even worse. And good fucking GOSH, the hypocrisy thsi will cause for Adrinette from season 6 onwards! What even is Marinette's writing anymore??

"Adrian and Kagami broke up bc Kagami didn't like silly Adrian, his real personality!"

Litterally Kagami with Adrian:

They really had to turn Kagami into ooc and destroy all her development only to make Adrinette canon, while ladybug/marinette was litterally the one who hated Chat Noire being silly and unserious

[friendfromdsmp]

Are there Marinette Salt takes that you disagree with?

So we’ve established in the last ask that I think Adrien gets a bit of a bad rap with salters at times, but that’s absolutely nothing compared to how I feel about Marinette salt takes. TL;DR at the bottom since this was much longer than I anticipated, as per usual with my constant ramblings

One angle I just really can’t wrap my head around are people who think Marinette is to blame for the LadyNoir conflict overarching season 4 because, in all honesty, I don’t know if Marinette was even made fully aware that there was an ongoing issue. I’m probably misremembering or forgetting some stuff, and I’m about to go on a long-ass ramble, so bear with me on this

The conflict begins with MariBug having constant breakdowns due to her responsibilities piling up, her alter egos bleeding into each other and having zero guidance or even vent options. Back in Truth Chat said that he doesn’t mind Ladybug being the new Guardian as long as it doesn’t impact their relationship/dynamic. But due to how overwhelmed and alone she is, Ladybug can’t always be there for all the patrols and silly little things the heroes do, which leaves Chat disappointed and feeling ignored

Is he entitled to these feelings? Absolutely. Can’t help how you feel. And for the most part he doesn’t bother Ladybug with these feelings, except for mentioning it once that he misses seeing her all the time and she explains herself and promises to try and prioritise patrols more. Healthy stuff, good communication, I’m vibing so far

But Chat continues not to voice his feelings while starting to let them dictate his behaviour, and this is where the problems arise - not just with Chat, but with Marinette salters, too. I was surprised to see how many people were mad at Ladybug for not prioritising Chat more or not being more considerate of his feelings

As far as I’ve seen, Chat hasn’t voiced his concerns to her, so you can’t expect Ladybug to fix a problem she doesn’t know exists, and even then you can see she doesn’t have the mental capacity or available free time right now, every other episode featured her having a mental breakdown. At this point Chat being disappointed that he’s not his coworker’s top priority isn’t… well, a priority

People were also getting mad that Marinette revealed her identity to Alya and not Chat was also a surprise to me. Alya is Marinette’s best friend and was chosen to be a hero for her loyalty and trustworthiness (arguable whether the show does a good job at displaying these qualities but I digress) and Chat Noir, the holder of the only other Miraculous Hawkmoth needs, is the most dangerous possible choice to share her identity with, especially considering what little Marinette remembers about Chat Blanc

Plus, Alya was there. Like, physically right there. And Marinette broke under all the pressure that was put on her. You think she’s gonna break and then sit around peacefully until Chat shows up before she actually acts on the breakage?

Anyway, speaking of Alya, her becoming more involved in the hero work makes Chat Noir feel replaced, resulting in him straight-up ignoring the plan after he was informed of his role in it multiple times by multiple people during Sentibubbler. I’ve seen takes that Marinette should have apologised for him not being better informed or for not including him more in the plan, and that absolutely baffles me

This wasn’t Marinette’s plan. Hell, Marinette herself didn’t even know half the plan, and she was the only other person aware of Alya’s trump card. Not to mention there was a whole thing about how Alya couldn’t contact Marinette, so how do they expect Marinette to have any way of knowing more than what was canonically stated to have been told to Marinette? There’s no way people aren’t just making up issues at this point

Rocketear then shows us something I think highlights one of the previous points very well; Ladybug notices that Chat looks upset after he’s learned that Ladybug broke the secret identify rule by handing Alya and Nino their Miraculous at the same time back during Heroes’ Day

She asks Chat what’s wrong and if he’s okay, and you know what he says? He fkn reassures her that he’s okay and it’s nothing

There you have it, ladies and gentlemen; Ladybug noticed there were signs of a problem and asked Chat about it, only to be told there was no problem. But as all the salters have told me, Ladybug just doesn’t care about Chat Noir or his problems. How do people expect her to fix a problem that she not only doesn’t know exists, but a problem that’s now actively being kept from her?

Now we come to Chat Noir no-showing to fights, which results in Ladybug needing to call in additional backup more often. At first Chat has valid reasons for not showing up; he had obligations as Adrien that he couldn’t escape. But the problem here isn’t that he didn’t show, it’s that he took the temp heroes showing up as a sign of Ladybug replacing him as her partner rather than filling a vacant but necessary role

And the problem only worsened when Chat stopped showing up to fights even when he had every opportunity to, opting out due to being depressed that Ladybug was relying more on the temp heroes… which in turn forced Ladybug to rely more on the temp heroes. He was creating his own problem

And it stumps me how so many Marinette salters decided that it was her fault for letting things get so bad between them that he was sitting out akuma fights due to depression. Dumber still, people agreeing with Adrien and saying that Ladybug is replacing Chat and she shouldn’t keep bringing out the temp heroes and instead rely more on Chat

Guys, I’m sure she’d love to rely more on Chat, but right now she can’t even rely on him to show up to his job. What do you realistically want her to do? Fight akumas all alone, without any backup? Not fight the akuma until Chat shows up first, thus enabling the akuma to run rampant and unchecked through Paris until then? Somehow figure out Chat Noir’s identify, show up at Adrien’s house and beg him to help her fight? What’s her realistic alternative to the temp heroes?

Kuro Neko is where this comes to a head. To start we have salters saying that Ladybug’s interview was insulting to Chat, but I don’t see it at all. Her exact words were “Of course [Chat and I aren’t at odds with each other], it's just that... umm, he's a partner like any other! The most important is to pick the best superheroes for each mission, with or without Cat Noir. No matter what, we've got a great team and we'll always be here to save Paris.”

She’s saying that Chat Noir wasn’t necessary for the fight, not that he wasn’t wanted or missed. Could she have phrased it slightly better? Yes. But she was put on the spot to answer a question she doesn’t know the answer to but probably secretly fears the worst for, all while knowing that she needs to reassure the public that they’re safe and that she and all the other heroes will transform back any minute now

She was trying to say “Chat Noir’s absence isn’t because of any fights between us, and I can assure you that with the help of the team, Paris won’t be any less safe than it is when we work as a duo”, not “Chat Noir is useless and I’m phasing him out in favour of all these other heroes”

Chat finally shows up and addresses his issues, albeit totally out of the blue for Ladybug since this is the first time she’s actually gotten some form of confirmation that something is, in fact, wrong. Chat shows up out of nowhere after missing a ton of akuma fights, wants to hang out and chat while Ladybug is already on the clock, then offers to help her out by going to all the meeting spots to collect the loaned Miraculous

The problem here is that Chat doesn’t know half of their identities, so in order to help Ladybug, he needs her to break the identity rule in a non-emergency situation and reveal secrets that aren’t hers to share

He tries to argue that he already knows some of the heroes, which is fair, but even then it’s made pretty clear that Ladybug doesn’t have time to work out which heroes Chat knows the identities of and then tell him where these specific individuals are currently located

They’ll all be turning back any moment now, Ladybug included, and if she turns back then it’s game over for them all. At very least King Monkey would have only lasted another three or four seconds if Ladybug had gotten his Miraculous back, and he was left dangling from a chimney

Seems to me that Ladybug is not currently in a position where she’s able to accept Chat Noir’s help, but she has made it clear that she’ll talk to him after everything is taken care of and she’s no longer racing against the clock

But because she’s turning down Chat Noir’s offer of help, regardless of circumstances, the salters blame her for it as if she and all the others wouldn’t have turned back before she even finished sharing all the heroes’ locations

There’s also an argument going around of ‘she should have told him all their identities before’, but this is ignoring that, while it’s Ladybug’s job to know this stuff as both their Guardian and not Ladybug’s place to share the secrets of others, we’ve also had several episodes detailing how dangerous it is to break the identity rule; Queen Wasp, Heroes’ Day, Miraculer, Miracle Queen, Optigami, Sentibubbler, Rocketear. Hell, three of those happened just the other week or something

And just to clarify, Ladybug still doesn’t know that this is part of an overarching issue; as far as she knows, he showed up out of nowhere after a fight, she told him multiple times that she has to rush around gathering these Miraculous and that she didn’t have time to explain where she needed to meet everyone, he was teasing and making puns while interrupting her and then she snapped that “If you want to save me time, stop wasting it in the first place!” since he was being pushy at an inappropriate time when she didn’t have the time to talk it out calmly or anything

It’s an understandable reaction when you’re trying to do something very important and someone swoops in out of nowhere and pesters you with puns and demands while you’re already on the clock, and frankly Chat did need her to snap a bit to show she was serious

And all I have to say is… that’s it? That’s all she had to do to be the bad guy in this situation, according to salters? Yes, she could’ve been more polite, sure, but Chat was the one keeping her from doing her job. Showing up with the intention of helping doesn’t absolve him of causing further disruptions. At that point he was the one disregarding social convention

And then immediately after that, Chat tells her that she should just take his Miraculous away from him as well, to which she just gives a barebones acknowledgement as she rushes away, then expresses that she doesn’t know what he meant by that. She still thinks this is just him wanting to be helpful and not taking her responsibilities seriously in favour of being playful

This is an extreme overreaction to what she perceives as just a minor bump in the road, if anything, which is probably why she didn’t catch on right away what he meant; he wouldn’t really quit being a superhero altogether just over her not having the time to talk to him right this second, right?

Plagg is the one to break it to her that there’s an overarching issue; Chat’s co-dependency issues making him struggle with the idea that he’s not necessary because job-wise he can be replaced with the temp heroes and his struggles to healthily communicate this due to his stunted social development resulting in his bottled up feelings spilling over… wait, what? He said it was because she broke Chat’s heart by not being in love with him? When the hell did that become relevant?

But some salters ate up the idea that Ladybug rejecting Chat is a moral failing on her part and all this would’ve been solved if she just dated him already. The love square isn’t even a contender in these issues, why is this the explanation? And why are people falling for it? It’s clearly just another excuse to make Marinette ‘learn a lesson’ and blame her for all this while absolving Adrien of any perceived imperfections

And to clarify once more; MariBug is now finally aware that there is some overarching conflict, but she believes it’s just Chat being butthurt that she’s still not in love with him. So nothing new. Same conflict as always

Oh, and a bit of a tangent but what the hell were the salters thinking when they blamed Marinette for going to London in Hack-San? We saw her make several attempts to get out of it, then when she couldn’t she called Alya - the second most experienced superheroine after herself and someone already familiar with Tikki and already aware of Mari’s identity - to take over for her to ensure Paris still had a Ladybug hero

Even after she was long gone, Mari was still texting Alya non-stop to provide tips for being the Ladybug hero, including special tips on how to make Chat feel valued and happy. Girl thought of everything, did all she could, and you’re still managing to complain that she should’ve just… what? Confessed to her parents that she’s Ladybug so they’d have to let her stay? Run away? Destroy all their passports?

Look, even Tom was vibing with not going, but Marinette tried every trick in the book and it all failed, so she ensured she appointed the most qualified replacement she could. That’s called being responsible

I bet those salters are the same people that got pissed off when Ladybug yelled at Chat for abandoning Paris in the New York special, despite the fact that he left completely unannounced yet pre-planned and willingly, while knowing Ladybug wouldn’t be there and without appointing anyone to fill in in his absence and as such knowingly leaving Paris undefended

Anyway, things come to a head again in the finale when Chat is yelling at Ladybug mid-battle for keeping secrets from him and being too reliant on the temp heroes rather than him and all that fun stuff. Now remember, this is once again coming out of nowhere for Ladybug, who has managed to reach the season finale without actually knowing that she’s in the middle of a season-long conflict as opposed to just same old, same old

Ladybug is trying to defend herself from both the sentimonsters and from Chat’s accusations and insults, with no idea where all this animosity has ‘suddenly’ come from

More salters argue that, once again, Ladybug should’ve caved to his whims by now, and all I can do is wonder why the middle of a huge fight is seemingly their definition of an appropriate time for that conversation, let alone any time at all being appropriate for spilling secrets that aren’t yours to share and are being kept for the purpose of child safeguarding

Salters really need to understand that while LadyNoir are equals in terms of a team unit going into battle, Ladybug is still effectively Chat’s boss due to her Guardianship role. They don’t have to be equals in absolutely every aspect, and Marinette doing her job is not a flaw in Marinette’s character or an argument towards her being a bad person who doesn’t care about Chat Noir

Then we get to the big risk of giving a Miraculous to ‘Adrien’, and salters love to claim that it’s all Ladybug’s fault because she chose Felix and not Adrien. Can you guess what I’m going to ask how, guys?

As opposed to what???

Ladybug was knowingly under the influence of an akuma that impairs judgement. She came to a very logical conclusion given the information she had that ‘Adrien’ didn’t have a mark, and thus was the only person in Paris not judgmentally impaired. She was, need I remind you, correct

The only problem is that she didn’t know - and had no way of knowing - that at that moment, Felix was pretending to be Adrien for completely unrelated reasons, just so happening to get caught up in the crossfires of whatever the hell MariBug was getting up to that day. Her logic was ‘I can’t trust myself to make a smart decision, so I’ll go to someone who I can trust to make a smart decision’. And just because Felix was already acting the part, a fact she couldn’t have possibly known, suddenly she’s to blame for the fuck-up?

Anyway, when we finally begin to conclude the LadyNoir drama, it occurs when Ladybug realised that she’s been tricked and Felix steals her yo-yo. Adrien gets in a snide comment about “If you’re gonna trust me once, please let it be this time!” which should make exactly zero sense to Ladybug

And then we get to the final scene, where Ladybug breaks down crying and apologises for lying to Chat, not listening to him, keeping him at a distance and refusing his help

And I just… what? Chat’s done all these things without context to make it understandable or called for in the moment, yet the Marinette salters are just nodding along and agreeing that she’s the one at fault. So many of them have said that Ladybug didn’t deserve his forgiveness or his loyalty or his pep talk, it baffles me

And that brings me to conclude my biggest gripe about the LadyNoir drama and the Marinette salters that go with it; MariBug was almost solely blamed by the narrative and the salters alike, but she didn’t actually know anything at all was going on until Kuro Neko (episode 23 of 26)

From there she figured it was just some of Chat’s habitual pouting on the job over his advances being rejected until the very last episode of the season but never got clarification on what exactly had been bugging him for this long, then it all magically resolved without apology or explanation

He didn’t bother with that because, by the end of the episode, Chat had gotten his way; no more temp heroes. Ladybug was now forced to rely on him and only him, so he instantly quit fighting her and carried on as though nothing had ever happened. Ladybug must’ve been reeling, no wonder she was just listing off all the bad stuff she could think of that she might’ve done; she was trying to see which one stuck. Girl lasted the entire season drama without knowing what the drama was

Marinette salters to that extent don’t take into account her perspective of many situations, and a lot of it is from Chat stans getting mad when MariBug doesn’t bend over backwards to his every whim, even when he’s actively keeping them a secret from her. She’s just supposed to telepathically know what the problem is and is expected to fix it simply because ‘they’re partners’, when even that isn’t an obligation to care for him beyond a professional capacity

Sorry I know this one is long as all hell but it really annoys me how certain Marinette salters will practically invent problems to blame her for - the show’s writers included. And to be clear, I’ve done my share of Marinette salting before, she’s far from perfect, but I do think that a lot of the salt she gets is pretty baseless

TL;DR is that my worst issue with Marinette salters is how they often blame Marinette entirely for the season 4 LadyNoir drama despite the fact that a lot of their problems with her behaviour don’t really have a reasonable alternative and she didn’t ever actually work out what the drama was truly about, having not even known there was drama until episode 23 of 26

[fernsnouveau]

Tags by @erisluna35 :

#yeah the ship cracked not cause we dont believe in teen love #but because s5 messed up their dynamic #this whole thing messed up adriens arc not because of adrienette #but because he kept getting locked out of his own narrative #which is not satisfying regardless of adrienette #reducing all these complaints to just the salters belittling teen love #the sugar side really dont get it

Tags by @generalluxun :

#as a writer I feel this #writing the LS is hard now I need to ensure there is a clear break from canon to even contemplate it #why did they turn it so toxic?

“You don’t ship the love square because you’re an adult who doesn’t believe teenage love is legitimate”

I’m going to stop you there. Yes, I am an adult person who is aware teenage romance doesn’t have a great track record of being lasting in real life. But Miraculous Ladybug: Tales of Ladybug and Cat Noir is FICTIONAL.

If the writers decide on a convincing arc for Maribug and Adricat being “made for each other”, then yes, I will ship them. I considered them an OTP for years, actually.

UNFORTUNATELY there was a multi-season storyline of Ladybug keeping important secrets from Chat Noir that was not fully addressed and pushed aside.

UNFORTUNATELY as of the season 5 finale, we have Maribug lying to Adricat about his very existence as a son of Monarque and his status of being a Sentimonster.

So no. I don’t ship it anymore. And I’m actually kind of bummed this fictional relationship I invested in for years is dead to me.

[kari-go]

What potential did you think canon Adrien had that was squandered when you quit watching in early season 3? What could canon have done better to make you care about him? Is there any overlap with your original salt au?

They could've done so much but did nothing. There was the conflict with Lila, with Marinette and Adrien teaming up together to do something. It would've made the love square stronger, with them becoming friends and trusting each other. There could've been so many Adrinette moments!

Also, Gabriel, his dad, is Hawkmoth AKA THE MAIN VILLAIN. And there's nothing for basically the entire series.

They could've had Adrien bond with Master Fu, it's kinda unfair that Marinette knew so much more and Adrien basically didn't know about his existence (I think he already knew about him in season 3 but there was no content of them, I think?). This would've been a good way to put in some lore, something about Emilie, Adrien noticing the weirdness about her death, or something about past holders and the miraculous in general. This also could've helped Ladynoir, with them bonding over their miraculous and their kwamis.

Just making Lila a bigger threat (and smarter, because she is so so dumb) would've made the show better or at least interesting.

I'm honestly not sure? I think he was always uninteresting to me,,, I used to read a lot of LS fanfictions because it was clearly endgame and the main ship and I think that's just where my interest in him ended. I cared about him because he was associated with Marinette.. I remember being kinda confused as to why everyone was obsessed with him xd So I honestly don't know, but I guess just having a bigger role in the story would've helped.

No, in basically everything. And I'm really happy about that.

[theerurishipper]

This is just an unstructured, incoherent vent post, but I've seen a few posts recently about how Adrien would definitely forgive Marinette for keeping secrets from him because he loves her, or that he would blame himself for not noticing what was going on and not her. And those aren't wrong, per se, but this is what I mean by the show taking away Adrien's agency. Ultimately his choices are allowed only as far as they do not inconvenience Marinette or anyone else the narrative cares about, like Felix or Nathalie. Which is why Adrien is not allowed to grow, he is not allowed to prioritize his own feelings and emotional needs. Any wrong done to him is resolved by him putting aside his own feelings to forgive the people who wronged him. And yes, he has been taught that his feelings don't matter by Gabriel and that he should bend over to the whims of everybody around him. And that kind of makes it worse, how the effect of Gabriel's abuse is used to convenience everyone around him. I think it's gross.

Just look at the Ladynoir conflict from Season 4. Adrien brings up his grievances with Ladybug's treatment of him a few times, but ultimately, he ends up putting it aside to focus on her emotional needs when she is at her lowest. Kuro Neko gave us the message that it wasn't that Ladybug was treating Chat Noir unfairly, but that Chat Noir should stop expecting to be treated with respect and should stop having emotional needs. And at the end of Strikeback, nothing is resolved, Ladybug hasn't apologized to him or resolved to do better by him, but he still shows up to her side to comfort her. No, she didn't apologize to him. She admitted her mistakes but did little to correct them even after the fact. That whole arc ended with Chat Noir being treated poorly over and over, and yet coming back to Ladybug's side because he's such a good partner and he loves her so much.

And Adrien, a character who has been forced his whole life to bend to the whims of others to please them at his expense is doing the same thing to Ladybug. Adrien exhibiting this behavior is 100% a trauma response. Ladybug is supposed to be his escape from his abusive homelife. And yet, the show writes him falling back into his trauma responses with her (Kuro Neko) and does jack shit to portray it as a bad thing. And the Season 4 finale is once again Adrien putting aside his feelings and showing up to support her. Adrien's emotions are not validated, they are tossed aside. Ladybug admitted her mistakes as she did several times through Season 4, but she still did little to correct them. That admission in Strikeback doesn't do much, because we never see her do anything to fix her mistakes after that. What happened was that Chat Noir saw her in distress and decided his feelings were unimportant because she needed support.

This is not healthy. Adrien should not be invalidating his own feelings so that he can offer comfort to others. He shouldn't forget and forgive so quickly without the other person doing anything to correct their behavior towards him. Once again, this is how Gabriel has taught him to behave, to stop "being so emotional" and to conform to his expectations. And Adrien continuously downplays his own issues for others' sake. And obviously, we would understand that he can heal from this, that he can learn to take care of his own emotional needs first.

And quite frankly, all the posts about how we shouldn't want Adrien and Marinette to break up, or how we shouldn't be so hard on Marinette, or that she is just a child in tough situation, or that she is doing it out of love and that Adrien would forgive her kinda make my point. Because let's be real. What Marinette did is a serious breach of trust. I do not understand how anyone could forgive something like that quickly. And I understand why she did it. I don't think she is a bad person or anything like that. But it's still an awful thing to do. And frankly, I don't see how Adrien could just... instantaneously forgive her without invalidating and downplaying his own pain and hurt. If he did, I would seriously question his self-worth. And while I don't think Adrien would never forgive Marinette or that he would stop loving her, frankly, I would like to see more acknowledgement of his feelings and his emotional needs both from the fandom and the show. I would like to see that his feelings matter, that he is allowed to be angry and that he is allowed to hold people accountable and call them out. I would like for him to not forgive some people. I would like for him to require distance and space from them. That would be development for Adrien, to let himself be emotional and not feel the need to put his own needs aside for others.

But for Adrien to prioritize himself, it would mean acknowledging the harmful things characters like Marinette have done to him. And that can't happen, because all the purpose Adrien serves is as a plot device to connect Marinette to Gabriel, and actually having her be held accountable by the narrative for her choices is a big no no. Growth for Adrien would mean that he lets himself be angry at Marinette for how she kept secrets from him, never apologized for it, and ultimately ended up keeping the greatest secret of all from him about his father and the fact that he is a Sentimonster. But as the writing to this point shows, Marinette isn't a safe space for him where he is allowed to be himself. She is someone who also elicits his trauma responses from him. He doesn't let himself be angry with her, he always puts himself last when it comes to her.

I am not saying Marinette is in any way comparable to Gabriel. She is nowhere as bad as him, she does not come close to that in any way. Marinette is a good person. But what she did in the finale, is explicitly something that Gabriel wanted her to do. Gabriel wanted to continue to dictate his son's emotions and perceptions, and Marinette helped him do it. That's not a healthy relationship. And looking at all the Marinette-Gabriel parallels in Season 5... it's not a good look at all. The show portrays Adrien as someone who has been denied autonomy his whole life, and as someone who is expected to cater to the desires of the people around him and be perfect for them while neglecting his emotional needs, and made his arc one of finding independence and his own identity and learning that his feelings and desires matter. But also, they only matter as far as they don't inconvenience Marinette. Adrien shouldn't downplay his feelings, but if doing so would help Marinette, then he should do it actually. And it's hard for me not to see it as Ladybug benefitting from his trauma from his abusive home. It sounds harsh, but that's how it feels.

And all the talk of how Adrien would never hate Marinette and that he would forgive her is... disappointing to me. Because I don't necessarily disagree, but it still is about prioritizing Marinette's feelings over Adrien's. What is focused on is not how Adrien might feel betrayed, but how Marinette might feel sad about Adrien feeling betrayed by her, and reinforces that Adrien is so good because he would not hold it against her. Even though he should, even though it means he would be downplaying his pain massively if he didn't blame her for that. If Adrien's character should develop, he should be allowed to realize that he has the right to get angry and that he doesn't have to downplay his emotions or feel like it's all his fault. He should be allowed to do that without people jumping to Marinette's defense and excusing her of blame.

Throughout the series, Adrien has been the person to help Ladybug through her problems, and the narrative has never allowed her to do the same for him. And I want to see focus on Adrien for a change. I want to see someone other than Plagg reassuring him and supporting him, especially his partner. I want to see the narrative be less about "oh, Adrien would never hold anything against Marinette because he loves her and would understand her always," and be more "actually Adrien is allowed to prioritize his feelings and want distance from Marinette after she betrayed him in such a personal way." That would be development. That would be reclaiming his agency. That would be free will and autonomy. I would like to see focus on this in the show and the fandom.

Adrien is not obligated to forgive Marinette. He is not obligated to understand her reasonings for why she did what she did. He is allowed to be angry at her and express his hurt because of her actions. Seasons 4 and 5 have regrettably established Marinette as someone else who denies Adrien's agency and around whom he reverts back to his fawning trauma response, and quite frankly the best thing for him to do would be to break up with her and go find himself on his own terms. I want his character to develop and grow, and unfortunately, Seasons 4 and 5 proved to me that it would not be possible as long as he is around Marinette, both from a character and narrative standpoint.

I just wish people would acknowledge and validate Adrien's perspective and feelings more. Even if it means calling out Marinette. Gabe is Adrien's abuser but he isn't the only one who has hurt Adrien in the story. Marinette is an incredible and amazing person but as far as we've reached in the show, she is hurting Adrien. And she has done many things across these two seasons that violate Adrien's trust. It's not even that this is a mistake she could learn from, but that she has done several such things over and over. From keeping secrets about the Miraculous holders' identities even though Hawkmoth himself knew, to Rena Furtive, to trying to trick him into an identity reveal in Ephemeral, and now keeping the fact that he is a Sentimonster and that Gabe is Monarch from him. It's gone from secret keeping to outright lying to him. It is not healthy. And it is a sign of stagnation and regression in Adrien's growth if he continues to keep forgiving her over and over again despite her never fixing her behavior.

If Adrien's arc is about finding autonomy, then he cannot be with someone who is complicit in denying him the ability to make his own choices. If Marinette was supposed to be the knight in shining armor, they shouldn't have given her the key to the tower and have her hide it away. If she was supposed to save him, they shouldn't have had her condemn him further. If Marinette was supposed to be the one who helped Adrien regain his self worth, the person whom he could trust and rely on the most, they shouldn't have made her side with Gabe, deny Adrien his agency, and violate his trust so many times.

It didn't have to be written this way, but these were the decisions made by the writers. They chose to portray Marinette like this for no discernable reason and refused to acknowledge it or deal with it meaningfully. Adrienette is so profoundly unhealthy now that if Adrien's character is to grow, the only way for him to do that is to break up with Marinette. But the show has also made it very clear that Adrien is only a plot device and a trophy for Marinette at the end. So I have no doubt that all will be forgiven in a matter of minutes, and the narrative will praise Adrien for being traumatized and denying his own emotional needs to comfort Marinette as she feels bad for hurting him. And it's sad, but I guess it is what it is.

[reclamosmiraculersenspanish]

Solo se quejan del "Guionazo" cuando afecta a otros personajes que no son Marinette, peri si se trata de ella, mágicamente ella tiene control de sus acciones. OMG.

[trainsinanime]

Representation and Recreation

Usual disclaimers: I like the show, I liked season 5, I had a lot of fun with the finale and I think it had a lot of great elements, like Bug Noir and Kung Fu Jagged Stone. I don't intend to be salty (though whether it is salt is, of course, up to you), I'm generally watching the show and in the fandom to have fun, not to complain, and season 5 as a whole delivered on fun.

With that out of the way:

Goddammit, this fucking season 5 finale! I want to write analysis posts, but I can't make heads or tails of it. I've seen analysis posts by others, and I've reblogged some, but I think all of them are lacking, both the ones that like the finale and the ones that don't.

For example, part of me wants to make a post explaining how the finale really only makes sense if you see it as three parts, taking Representation into account, and what it tells us about Adrien, Marinette, Felix, Kagami and Sentimonsters. I would really like that to be true. But then I start thinking about this, and it turns out I don't actually have a thesis here, it's just that Representation is a way better episode that sets up a completely different finale.

Think about it. Representation's "A" plot is that Marinette learns about the history of Felix and Adrien through an avant-garde theatre show. I think this is the best visual storytelling the show has ever had, and it's the prettiest too. Here, we learn about the Sentichildren, about Gabriel's role in creating them, and how Gabriel is a threat to them. And the Sentichildren need help, from Ladybug. As the presentation ends and morning dawns, it seems like Marinette has understood all that, and resolved to help the sentis.

This has no bearing on the finale whatsoever. Marinette learns that Gabriel is evil, again, and is surprised, again. In retrospect it almost seems like she thought there was a third Adrien-Felix cousin or something. The sentibeings don't appear, it's all about the wish.

Meanwhile, Adrien's plot is all about him beating the crap out of his father, and finally telling him off. This toxic relationship is finally severed. Adrien is still under his father's control, but he's managed to see him for who he really is, and articulate that, and finally symbolically defeat him, with the help of his friend. That's really great thematically, and it's arguably the culmination of the character growth we've seen all season.

This has no bearing on the finale whatsoever. Adrien just doesn't appear in the final battle whatsoever, and when he does appear (actually, who unlocked his cell?), he's just happy and seems to have made peace with the memory of his father again.

That's weird, right? If it weren't for Adrien and Kagami being imprisoned, Representation would have no impact on the finale at all, even though it's written as if it were the big lead in to the final big fight, where all the big thematic questions are brought out in the open.

Representation clearly sets up something, I think, but not the big season and arc finale that comes after it. Does it set up season 6? Does it set up anything at all? I certainly hope so!

Several people in the fandom have said that they trust the writers to pay this off. I'll be honest, I do not. This isn't meant as an insult to the writers, I enjoy the episodes they write, but the show just has a long history of doing things that look like setup that don't pay off. Marinette doesn't have trauma from Chat Blanc, she's got it from Kim. The Ladynoir conflict in season 4 ended up not that big a deal. Su-Han never mattered, and neither did the sisterly relationship between Zoé and Chloé.

(Aside: I have read all the posts explaining why it makes sense that Adrien isn't at the final battle, and none of them were convincing to me. Yes, it's Marinette's show, and I like that. They're not equals, no matter what the subtitle pretends. But to not have him around at all? His relationship with Marinette is the crucial engine of the show, and the whole thing with Gabriel also concerns him.

I particularly disagree with arguments that say Chat Blanc and Ephemeral proved it was a good idea to keep him out. He could have totally overcome whatever Gabriel put on him if the writers had chosen to write it that way.

The whole argument is flawed. It's a fictional tactical argument to explain away a real story issue. You can do that when discussing why the crew of the USS Enterprise didn't turn the Tricorder into a Transporter again or whatever, but this is a fun explanation, not an actual argument for why the story had to go this way.)

Anyway. This finale. I have no idea what it's about. I'm not even entirely certain I know what happened. I'm not sure the writers knew, and even if they do, they're certainly not saying. That is so, so weird. I love Bug Noir, though.

[quarterdollar]

HI I'm assuming this is the main for gabrielagresteofficial, I can't remember the exact wording of the question I asked you, but generally what were your thoughts on movie Gabriel and the movie in general :3

HII YES YAY

so going in i was certainly expecting a PRETTY movie but not expecting anything much from the story……pokemon did an “alternative take on the main characters’ origins” movie too that was fun to watch once but nothing super memorable. PLUS you gotta take everything in ML with massive grains of salt to begin with. BUT!!! I WAS BEYOND PLEASANTLY SURPRISED!!!! WOW !!!!!!! i was NOT expecting them to actually wrap up the love square or the hawk moth conflict in a single film, let alone in a way that actually felt satisfying for every character involved. it felt like a huge callback to season 1 in the best way……everyone’s early-show characterizations are back, the ladynoir dynamic is super tastefully written and fun to watch, and overall it’s just a super sweet unapologetically earnest cornball of a movie. did you know that they are in love? they’re in loveee 😭😭

AND GABRIEL. OH MY GOD. HOLY SHIT. FUUUCCCK!!!!!! HIS EVERYTHING. because like. i love him forever and ever to the end of time in all forms Always. season 5 is insanely funny to me. but this man did NOT start as a heartless megalomaniacal asshole who turns his son into a vtuber and attacks random passerby on the street and buys twitter. he was just an extremely emotionally neglectful weirdguy once. we used to be able to go to his house and beg him to let adrien go to a birthday party and he’d break just a little and say yes. he was SO sad. and blonde. the filmmakers understood this. they brought us back to what we used to have. and then they gave us more by making him SO unbelievably mentally ill. saying he’s busy because he needs to go stand in a corner and brood. having meltdowns on the daily. passing out on the floor. CANONICALLY suicidal. jesus christ. but he’s ALSO still Hawk Moth bitch!!! he’s goofy and campy and a ham without the weight of Being Gabriel on him. being evil is awesome and fun actually. torment and hatred forever <3 and then they do a good job of showing how he falls further into it over time until he’s doing actually outrageous evil shit and attempting murder and going crazy and he’s SCARYY and gets the upper hand super easily and you’re like Good lord he is going to KILL these children. but then the power of love saves him because we do remember that he still has a soul. he takes the L and goes to jail while keeping his Shady Tendencies. that’s what i thought was gonna happen in the show too, once,

also i didn’t know it was a musical going in!! that was a magical surprise!! and then i was like Oh thank god they’re not making Bryce Papenbrook sing. and i was hoping and praying and begging that gabriel would get a song for obvious reasons, and also because i KNEW that if any VA was going to get to stay for that it was going to be Keith Silverstein. and sure enough he completely bodies the villain number and they even gave him a high note to hit!!! ohhh my god. INSANE moments in victor quarterdollar history. it Was weird that they dubbed cristina vee though. she does have a nice voice, i listen to her music. but other than that very good decisions across the board. exploded. died. will be watching again

[purrincess-chat]

The whole fandom is speculating that Adrinette will break up next season and / or there will be Ladynoir angst bc of Maribug keeping secrets. Do you think it's possible?

I feel like in general those ideas come from two different places and neither one are good in my opinion 🙄

People have been wanting Adrinette to break up or cheat on each other since they got together. That's not unique to this finale, it's just butthurt stans pouting and throwing a tantrum because it wasn't what they wanted so rather than getting over it and being happy the kids are together at all they'd rather see it crash and burn. For whatever reason. It's the weirdest take I've seen since they got together in canon. Like yeah we spent 5 seasons rooting for them and hoping they'd get together but now that they are together we totally want to see them break up and get together again but in different clothes because that totally won't fuck them up if they find out their identities later. Yeah, this person I totally moved on from and didn't want to date anymore is actually still my boyfriend/girlfriend. It's a different story if they are exes than if they are just friends. This fandom is so butthurt and wild that they don't even care about if it makes sense anymore 🤦‍♀️

The other side of this with people calling for angst bc Marinette is keeping secrets, to me, stems from people just wanting to salt Marinette. Which, what the hell else is new in this fandom? People have been gross about her since the beginning, but truthfully, I saw this coming when I learned what happens in the finale. I'm unsurprised. Because this fandom likes to blame young girls when, in reality, it's the fault of creepy grown ass men who could have just gone to therapy but chose domestic terrorism instead. 🤷‍♀️

Do I think either of these things will happen? Eh, maybe, maybe not. I think there will obviously be conflict in future seasons, and likely conflict within each of those dynamics because that's realistic and how stories work. I wouldn't mind there being Adrinette conflict that they resolve, that's good for their relationship growth. To break them up at this point would just be a middle finger to the audience and a way to drag us along. Because we know they're endgame so what would be the point other than prolonging the inevitable?

I definitely think there will be consequences to Gabriel's actions and his wish in future seasons. The show has always stated that there is a price to pay when someone makes a wish, and I think it's more than just Gabriel losing his life because he was going to lose that anyway, it wasn't much of a sacrifice. (And let's be real Gabriel's soul ain't worth much)

And for those that are genuinely curious if these things will happen and not coming from a salty place of just wanting to watch the world burn bc you're mad, time will tell. 🤷‍♀️ We will just have to wait and see.

Like I said, I plan to give this show until mid s6 at least before I decide whether I'll continue it or not. I'll give the new season a chance to show what it has to offer as far as continuing the story and where they're taking it next.