#from a character standpoint yeah i see it

[miraculouslbcnreactions]

Is there a reason Marinette’s lying to Adrien about Gabriel doesn’t make sense to you from a character-standpoint? She’s lied a fair bit in the show for reasons other than keeping her identity or crush on Adrien a secret, and her love for Adrien has consistently created a blind spot for her in terms of her “general” morals/behavior.

Is there something more specific to Marinette’s pattern of behavior that indicates how her lying about Gabe would be OOC, or is the lie something you believe Canon!Marinette should recognize as too egregious to take part in?

(The closest alternative explanation I’ve seen thus far is that she shouldn’t have any reason to lie for Gabe because they share zero good will, but if we interpret it as lying for Adrien, then I’m not sure if that explanation fits.)

I have, admittedly, not gone through the show and tracked every lie that Marinette has ever told to see if I can weave together a pattern that backs Marinette's behavior at the end of season five. It's possible that there's a lie that I'm forgetting that would totally change my stance and, if you think that's the case, then feel free to respond to this with a comment or an ask on that topic! My "this is BS" stance is based on the overall story of the show and the ways that I've seen people try to justify the season five lies as those are the arguments that I've thought through and found lacking.

We'll start by discussing the two lies people use to try to back Marinette's behavior at the end of season five: the scarf and Chat Blanc. Then I'll talk about the story's lead up to the season five lies and why it makes for a horribly unsatisfying story in my eyes. If someone gave this to me, I'd be suggesting some major edits to make it work on a technical level.

The Scarf

For those who don't remember, the season one episode The Bubbler sees Marinette make Adrien a scarf for his birthday. She drops the scarf off at the Agreste mansion with a note for Adrien and the hope that this will get him to finally notice her. Nathalie then takes the scarf and uses it as a gift from Gabriel instead. Marinette learns about this during this exchange at the very end of the episode:

Alya: Yo, nice scarf, Adrien. Off the chain. Adrien: Yeah, can you believe my dad got this for me? (Marinette looks surprised) it's so awesome. He's been giving me the same lame pen for three years in a row.... Alya:(to Marinette) You gotta tell him you were the one who knitted the scarf. Marinette: But he seems so happy about his dad. I don't want to spoil it for him. Alya: Aw, Marinette. (they hug.) You're amazing, girl. You know that, right? And someday Adrien will figure it out too. Promise.

I can see why someone would look at this and call it a setup for the end of season five. There are some parallels here. The problem is that there are a lot of massive differences, too. Differences that make this a really crappy setup:

Marinette does not lie in this scene. She simply overhears a lie and doesn't correct it. Remove her and Alya from the scene and nothing changes. The lie still exists. Meanwhile, without Marinette, the season five lies would never have come to be.

Marinette knows about the scarf lie for about a minute on screen. She hears about it and tells Alya to let it go within the same scene. That's a gut reaction, not a carefully planned and considered deceit. Once again, wildly different from what season five gives us.

Adrien and Marinette aren't shown to be close friends in season one. They rarely talk to the point that I didn't even know that they were supposed to be friends until we got to Origins. That complicates correcting the scarf lie. How does Marinette approach a random classmate and explain a situation that she doesn't even fully understand herself? That's very different from Ladybug telling a lie to a civilian or Marinette lying to her boyfriend.

Season one Marinette has no idea how messed up Adrien's home life is. All she knows is that Adrien liked her gift, but that he thinks it came from a different person. She doesn't even know that a lie was involved in this confusion! As far as she's aware, this could just be a minor misunderstanding that she'd rather let go because does it really matter who the gift is from? This is extra true because the scarf never comes up again, meaning that this is not an ongoing or damaging lie as far as canon is concerned.

That last point and the issue of Marinette never actually telling the lie herself are probably the biggest points in Marinette's favor. If Adrien wore the scarf all the time and used it as a comfort when he was fighting with his dad, then you'd have a solid case for Marinette needing to say something because the lie is arguably doing actual harm. This is especially true if you let Adrien say things like, "I wear this to remember that my father loves me," to Marinette. But that's not what canon did.

As far as canon is concerned, the scarf lie exists for all of a minute. A minute in which Adrien expresses delight in the gift, but gives it very tepid weight in terms of what it means for his relationship with his father. (Adrien's room is full of nice gifts, I don't think a scarf was going to make-or-break their relationship.) After that, the scarf never comes up again, meaning that Marinette's gut reaction to not immediately destroy Adrien's happiness is all we get. That's hardly a great setup for her being the source of massive ongoing lies about Adrien's personhood and the truth of his father's abuse.

I'll also remind you that this all happened at the very start of the show. The Bubbler is one of the first episodes people see. If this is your best argument for Marinette's behavior five seasons later, then we have a major writing problem on our hands. You should not have to dig back to the very start of the show to justify a major character beat like this. There should be more relevant material. We'll circle back to that problem in a minute. First let's quickly touch on lie two and why it also falls flat.

Chat Blanc

Another thing people point to as foreshadowing for the season five lies is the fact that Ladybug kept Chat Blanc from Chat Noir and, if Chat Blanc was actually affecting her, then I would agree with this take. However, that doesn't seem to be the case. The official story is that Ladybug's actions in season four had nothing to do with Chat Blanc. It was just guardian stress! If that's true, then I don't think she should tell Chat Noir about Chat Blanc.

Why?

Since when do we tell people about all the awful things they did while they were akumatized? There's no point to that. It's cruel. Do you think that Ladybug also needs to walk him through everything he did while under the control of various akumas like Dark Cupid? If no, then how is Chat Blanc any different? What's the value in telling Chat Noir the gory details of what will happen if he ever has a moment of weakness and becomes akumatized? He already knows that it will be bad! Why tell him exactly how bad it will be? I can't come up with a single good canonical reason.

Ladybug has no idea what caused Chat Blanc, so she can't warn Chat Noir what he needs to avoid. You can't even use the "he should know about Bunnyx" argument because that wasn't Bunnyx's debut. Canonically speaking, the only reason that Ladybug should talk to Chat Noir about Chat Blanc or any other bad thing that he's done while under the power of an akuma is if it's effecting her or their partnership and it's apparently not! That's why Marinette never reacts to Chat Noir getting a white makeover (see: the Paris special & Jubilation) and why Chat Blanc is never discussed in the show outside of that one brief nightmare callback in Sentibubbler.

To be clear, I think that's an asinine choice as Chat Blanc's memory hurting Ladynoir would have been semi-decent foreshadowing for the season five lies, but the writers decided to go another route. They also let Chat Blanc haunt Adrien even though he doesn't know about it, which I don't even know how to dissect because it's such terrible writing! If you don't know what I'm talking about, this is the official explanation for why Adrien couldn't make it to the final fight. The reason for the white-and-blue Chat Noir that haunted his nightmares:

Mélanie says that he "could become Chat Blanc" and the others add that even though he does not remember and has never lived it, Chat Blanc still has an influence on his actions.

Quality writing here folks. Quality writing. At the very least have season five Adrien be freaked out about the fact that he cataclysmed a human! That would make this make at least a little sense, but we don't get that. Instead we get Adrien almost cataclysming several akumas like it's no big deal while having nightmares about a thing he's never even been told about (see: Derision and Jubilation and probably other's I'm forgetting.)

The Events of Season Four and Five

As you can hopefully see, we don't have a great, ongoing pre-end-of-season-five lie to point to as proof that Marinette would decide to tell the massive lies that she does. That's a pretty big writing flaw, but it's not a show stopper. A lie like this could still fit her character if the story sets it up right.

The problem is that the story doesn't do that. It actually sets Marinette up to be primed to want to tell the truth.

For all Miraculous' nonsensical and wacky writing, the season five lie still comes at the end of two seasons with relatively clear messages. Those messages were to trust others and avoid lies. Let me show you what I mean.

While season four's writing is an absolute disaster, we cannot ignore the fact that the stated lesson in Strikeback is that Marinette learned to trust others, give up control, and stop lying:

Ladybug: Why don't you just give up on me? I've lost ALL the Miraculous! I'm the worst Guardian EVER! I wanted to control everything, I didn't listen to you, I lied to you, I kept you at a distance! Every time you offered me a helping hand, I never took it! I really made a mess of EVERYTHING! (continues sobbing)

This is what Marinette says to Chat Noir directly after losing the Kwamis. This is the lesson that she supposedly learned. The end note of the season. The word of god meant to be internalized by children everywhere. The show even goes so far as to have Ladybug give Chat Noir more responsibility in the first episode of season five (Evolution):

Cat Noir: Catch, m'lady! (throws the Rabbit Miraculous at Ladybug and she catches it) Only the holder of the Rabbit Miraculous can open a time portal. Ladybug: (contemplates shortly then places the Rabbit Miraculous on his chest, smiling) You do it, kitty. Cat Noir: You want me to control time? Ladybug: It's you and me, remember?

Really driving home this idea that Ladybug is going to be more trusting and open with others moving forward.

The meat of season five sees Marinette and Adrien start dating. During this arc, Marinette learns to be more open with her feelings around Adrien while also being confronted with the reality of just how messed up Adrien's home life is. Marinette and Gabriel clash with each other over Adrien with Marinette fighting for Adrien's freedom and Gabriel trying to control everything:

Gabriel: I don't think you understand, child, so let me put things differently. Life is like fashion. You think you have a choice, but all you have is the illusion of choice. And I decide what choices are given to you. Marinette: You're wrong! (Shows Gabriel her sketchbook.) Fashion is about listening to people, it's about understanding who they are, what excites them and creating the clothes that will help them express their inner world. Help them connect with others and make their dreams come true.

This conflict means that Marinette and Gabriel do not have a single positive interaction in the entire season outside of maybe the final. We also see Adrien defy his father more than ever before. This is not the kind of setup you write if you want Marinette to tell Adrien that his father was a hero. Why in the world would she think that he'd want to be told that kind of lie? Why would he even buy it after all of the things that Gabriel has done? The final literally sees Adrien locked in a padded prison cell!!! Writers, what are you doing??? Why did you write this???

There's also the fact that season five has a major theme of lies = bad. It's the season where Lila's lies are finally outed, but only after they almost cost Marinette's friends their futures. For those who need a reminder: Lila tried to mess with the forms that stated where everyone wanted to go for lycée and would have succeeded in pulling off that harm and blaming it on Marinette were it not for the lies being outed.

On top of that, we also see Adrien keeping the plan to ship him off to London from Marinette, ending in this exchange:

Marinette: (on the video call) Adrien! Adrien: (voice breaking; in tears) Marinette, I should've told you sooner, but... up until the last minute, I thought I'd find a solution. I tried everything, I swear. Marinette: (on the video call) Adrien, what's... what's going on? Adrien: I have to leave Paris. (his voice breaks) I'm not worthy of your love. I feel terrible for hurting you.

Adrien kept the truth from Marinette to try to keep her from being hurt and ended up hurting her more than he otherwise would have because they don't even get a proper goodbye.

None of this is a solid setup for Marinette turning around and lying to Adrien about his father. Why would she do that after all of the harm lies and Gabriel caused in season five? Between this and season four, she has not been setup to want to lie to Adrien. Season five needs massive rewrites to make that choice work! (Note: I have yet to see the London special, but based on everything I've heard, I think it's just going to cement my annoyance at Marinette's wishy-washy writing by continuing to ignore the plot of the seasons leading up to the final and the special.)

Final Thoughts

I don't think that Marinette lying to Adrien about his dad is a terrible idea. It's a believable struggle! It just doesn't fit her character's journey. They've failed to have her tell that type of lie before and they had her tell this lie after two seasons where the main lessons were how much lies have hurt her and the people that she loves. If she hasn't gotten the message that you shouldn't lie by now, then when exactly is she going to learn it? It's incredibly hard for me to get invested in characters that aren't allowed to grow and learn from their mistakes and Miraculous has made it abundantly clear that it will not let these characters grow if growth messes with the plot that the writers want to tell.

I will openly admit that I think that Marinette's lie was a last minute retcon to make there be a cliffhanger to season six, but let's ignore that and give a quick three-point plan of how you could make this ending work:

Really lean into the negative consequences of people knowing the truth about things. Nino knowing Alya's identity outing Alya. Luka getting shipped off to Brazil. Make the truth hurt Marinette at every turn. Basically remove all lies = bad consequences and have Ladybug see losing the miraculous be the result of trusting others because she trusted "Adrien" and lost, leading her to keep pushing people away

Don't let Lila be outed. Have Lila be a good president and make that part of her big plan for the next season.

Have Gabriel and Marinette get along. Gabriel has said that Adrien is like Emilie, let Gabriel see himself in Marinette, leading Gabriel to trust Marinette to be Adrien's support should the worst happen. Let the final fight be a heartbreaking moment between two people who have an actual relationship built around loving Adrien. Have Adrien going to London be a "convenient" trip to get him out of the way on the day of the evil plot and not a prison sentence so that Gabriel doesn't look cartoonishly evil. Make it feel like he cares! Sell the redemption!

Do that and, yeah, I'd buy Marinette's choice even without setup lies because you don't need setup lies! Setup lies don't matter anywhere near as much as selling this lie and the writers simply didn't do that. I don't believe for a second that Marinette would lie for Gabriel or think that this was what Adrien wanted based on the relationship season five gave us for those three characters. It is so glaringly obvious that this is nothing more than a stalling tactic that has nothing to do with Marinette's character and everything to do with the show's rule that "there must always be a secret between Adrien and Marinette." I genuinely struggle to understand how anyone sees it as anything else.

[frollosversion]

Why is Hellfire (AND JUDGE CLAUDE FROLLO'S PERSONALITY) creepy in itself?

Take it from a Theater Major! Let's dive in his song breakdown!

In a musical, there are 3 types of songs. There are "establishing/new songs", an "I am song", and an "I want" song.

Establishing/new songs are made to— self explanatory— establish the existence of the set and the characters without getting much depth as it focuses on the build up of the world the characters are living in or what the center of that place is supposed to be.

Let's not stray too far. Let's use The Bells of Notre Dame. Clopin, as the narrator, elaborates that an object, or a phenomena is linked to the character but doesn't really say what the character's in depth wants, needs etc are included (Which is the Bells and the Cathedral herself). 'The bells of Notre Dame' is played at the first part of the film/musical to establish a backstory or a character's focal point and a glimpse of moral standpoint (Claude's backstory and the Existence of Quasimodo) and to establish the setting (Which is Paris 1482 + 1462 flashback). That's the establishing/new song. It is also used as breathers like Flight into Egypt.

Next is an "I want Song". "I want" songs are automatically given to the main characters so the audience can get a peek of the beliefs of these characters and resonate with them in a sense. This kind of song elaborates the purpose and goals they try to achieve.

Quasimodo's "Out There" is a very good example of an "I want" song. He sings about his dream/goal to go down the bell tower without any consequences— "Just to live one day out there" as he would quote (love you quasi). That's where he's at and that's what he wants. To feel like he belongs.

Next is an "I am" song. Now, an "I am" song isn't directly given to villains/anti-heroes either. These can be used as a type of song to other characters. But in most cases, villains own these songs. Good example of an "I am" song is:

“Gaston” from Beauty and the Beast,

“Poor Unfortunate Souls” from The Little Mermaid,

“Mother Knows Best” from Rapunzel,

or “Be Prepared” from The Lion King.

All of these songs explain who they are not just on one fragment. But the entirety of it.

Villains use this to establish the dynamic and the power they are trying to uphold and "shove in" the viewer's faces to who they are.

Now, the problem (the situation, rather) in Hellfire, is Frollo gets an I WANT song instead of an I AM song. Again, An I WANT song is used for the protagonists— to allow us to see the goodness in their hearts and what they want best.

He tried to just do an I AM song, given that the first verse is literally

“Beata Maria, you know I am a righteous man of my virtue I am justly proud.

Beata Maria, you know I'm so much purer than the common vulgar weak licentious crowd.”

He tries to convey that Hellfire is an I AM song but eventually slips into the lines like he wanted her bad. Like... BAD bad.

And now since Frollo got an I WANT song, we saw what he wanted, which is lusting on Esmeralda + his moral dilemma. AND WE DON'T REALLY WANT TO SEE THAT, DO WE?? (I do. hehe). We saw things that we didn't really want to see. In this instance, his "little trouble at the fireplace."

And it's disgusting and disturbing to see how twisted a person is when left repressed and pushed. Not to mention that he's being sacrilegious himself because he blames that it's the Most High's plan that he made the devil "so much stronger than the man.". It's creepy. I know. sighs.

He's given a divine intervention (film), when he said "Let her taste the fires of hell or else let her be mine and mine alone!" Which he straight up rejects even if he asked for the sign himself AND PROCEEDS TO SING AND FINISH THE WHOLE DAMN THING.

So yeah, he's creepy, hellfire is twisted as it is. You get the gist. Thanks for listening to me yap. Take notes in case you wanted to write a musical. Yun lang! Mwah. HAHAHAHAHA

[yellowocaballero]

i know it's been an age since you've been involved with the tma fandom but i was rereading some of your web!jon fics and was wondering what your opinion was on web-martin and/or annabelle cane in general

Oh wow interesting question. Disclaimer to say that I never finished S5 so whatever was up with Annabelle at the end I have, like, no idea.

I...think I would have more developed and interesting opinions on this if you had asked me a few years ago, lol. I think there's a lot of interesting conversations you could have (and that were had!) about what makes somebody an Avatar in the first place. I do think fundamental to somebody becoming an Avatar is one of several things: a) the Entity victimizing you as a child or adult (Mike Crew, Michael and Helen), b) needing the Entity as fuel for your own sins and worst instincts (Daisy, Jude), or c) loving the Entity (Jane Prentiss).

I think Martin leaned on the Web-related stuff in his lying and everything but I don't think he ever got addicted to it, or needed it. In a lot of ways he rejected it, and in a lot of other ways he's a very honest person, even as he does lie and manipulate a bit when he finds it necessary. But of course this is a really interesting possibility to explore with him and definitely wouldn't be against who he fundamentally is.

Personally, I was never interested because I found it too easy? I was more interested in, "How the fuck does JON, of all people, be a Web avatar". Or, "Martin as Avatar of the Slaughter is both so incongruent but also makes so much sense and is so so funny". I liked freestyling with TMA, since the amorphous nature of the worldbuilding meant that you could do basically whatever. Entities are like the Force: a complete handwave so you can just do what you want.

Annabelle Cane...I remember liking her a lot! I definitely thought she was very different from the other Avatars, and that she seemed to be thinking more big picture and was less rabid than them. Also less monologing. I was definitely interested enough to make her a major character twice over, and as a villain I think she's far more interesting than Jonah because her motives could be a lot more complicated. I always write her as symbolic of a lot (neoliberalism or allonormativity or etc). Don't remember exactly why though...I think...I just thought she was cool...?

Sorry, it's been a while and this is all off the cuff, don't hold me to any of this lol. Glad people are still reading the TMA stuff though. And still leaving me 'wow this is like a fever dream' comments on Fahrenheit 101. Where did I LOSE YOU.

[starlooove]

No one is asking you to like cops IRL, not even the show. If you look at Arcane and what you see is copaganda, if you look at Cait and only see PoLiCe OfFiCeR and not the character, the problem is YOU.

1. I never said anyone asked me to like cops irl

2. I know that’s what I said.

[our-lesboy-experience]

our flag is. so prettyyyy <33

IKR the colors are so pretty together

[sonknuxadow]

i get why human sonic ocs arent as common but i do think its kinda funny that almost nobody is making human sonic ocs considering the humans and little animal guys share a planet and a lot of the earlier 3d games took place in heavily human populated areas

[thirdtimed]

unfortunately if i ever developed the lifeseries orv au in my head in earnest i would in no capacity whatsoever manage to be normal about it at all and like. i mean it

[maglors-anion-gap]

Otoh something I try to recognize is that a lot of people, myself included, bring their own experiences to the table when writing fic. Not everyone is processing something when writing but sometimes they are. So maybe sometimes the issue is no deeper than “the writer wanted to put this character through the ordeal of feeling like they’re already dead/have nothing left inside them because the writer felt like that at some point.” Different folks are writing with different purposes.

I lost the post but someone had written something a while ago abt how writing fic is like recognizing the self, so when you’re reading you don’t always learn something about the character in the fic but you might learn something about the author.

[furbygoblinxiv]

When I've read Dracula in the past, I always found it annoying that the dude squad decide to try to leave Mina out of the rest of the fight against Dracula. But idk, listening to re: Dracula these past few days kinda made me realize how it makes sense from their perspective.

Van Helsing mentioned that Mina is recently married, and thus, is potentially pregnant. With that thought, there'd be even more reason to be protective of her physical and emotional well-being.

Lucy very recently died. Lucy was someone that they all loved to varying degrees, and she was someone who died barely a week ago, and was actually killed a few days ago. They saw how the soft one they loved got twisted into a monster, which they wouldn't want to happen to Mina.

They left her in a house full of people that they thought was well defended, and they didn't realize that Dracula had anyone in the house to invite him in since Mina doesn't sleep walk.

She was present when Van Helsing listed out all of the powers and weaknesses of the vampire, and she transcribed Seward's diary of the account of how Lucy died. In theory, Mina should know what symptoms to look for in a vampire visit. She even makes comments about how it's like Lucy's comments about her dreams, which should have been a red flag for the girl who's cause of death was "vampire". But, again, she's in a full house that theoretically has no way for Dracula to get in.

This is also the inverse of Jonathan's sealed journal. Mina didn't read it, and after she did, she waited until after Van Helsing confirmed it was true to talk to Jonathan about it. She didn't want to upset him in a way that could hurt his mental state, and this is essentially a higher stakes reverse version of that imo.

Like yeah from a feminism and a reader standpoint, it's shortsighted and frustrating that they don't give Mina all of the information before it's too late. But from an emotional standpoint? If I saw what I thought was a chance to take someone I loved out of the line of fire, I'd do so in a heartbeat to protect them and relieve some of their burdens 🤷‍♀️

I don't see it as a writing issue, or Van Helsing being a raging evil sexist who's getting people killed. I see it as characters trying to protect someone they care about deeply and being flawed in their approach, and very quickly being proven wrong and admitting to their wrongdoing

I feel like re: Dracula is making me empathize with everyone more lol

[longing-for-rain]

Katara and Mutuality in Relationships

There are lots of conflicting opinions about which characters Katara felt attraction towards, which characters she didn’t, and how long she felt that attraction. I see in most cases, people point to quick clips of her faintly blushing or kissing another character on the cheek as evidence, but I think these kind of takes miss the nuance of the purpose attraction serves in a story.

Most importantly, I see these characters treated as if they are actually people capable of making their own decisions. It’s important to remember that these are fictional characters. They don’t make their own choices; the writers make their choices for them for the purpose of telling a story. From that standpoint, it’s more valuable to examine how a character’s story and narrative themes tie into their relationships with other characters. Animators can shove in a kiss or a blush wherever they want, but it’s harder to demonstrate through storytelling how and why two characters might feel attraction towards one another, and how a relationship between them would develop both characters and contribute to the overarching themes of the story.

In other words, when discussing which characters Katara is “attracted” to, I’m discussing which relationships and actions within the narrative build on her established story and arc. Romance is always integrated into a story for a reason, and considering that reason is important.

Unfortunately, ATLA is very much a product of its time in this way. It’s easy to see what romance adds to the arcs of the male characters—but not so much with the female characters. All three canon relationships (kataang, sukka, and maiko) follow this trend to some degree. The primary purpose of the woman in this narrative is to act as a prize for the man for performing some good deed. Once they’re together, she ceases having her own motivations and becomes an extension of the male character she’s dating. This is pretty blatant with Suki—she barely had a personality in that later seasons; she is there to be Sokka’s girlfriend. Similarly, Katara becomes a completely different character—she’s even animated differently—when the narrative pushes her into romantic scenes with Aang. Her character is flattened.

So what is Katara’s arc, and how do the romantic interactions she has throughout the series contribute to this?

Well, that could be a whole other essay itself, but to put it simply, Katara’s arc is one of a young girl devastated by grief at a young age clinging to hope that she has the power to fight and change the world for the better. Which she does as she gains power and confidence throughout the series—culminating in her defeating Azula in the finale.

But the part I want to focus on here is how Katara connects with other characters. She connects with them over shared experiences of grief and loss.

Take Haru, for instance.

Haru: After the attack, they rounded up my father and every other earthbender, and took them away. We haven't seen them since.

Katara: So that's why you hide your earthbending.

Haru: Yeah. Problem is…the only way I can feel close to my father now is when I practice my bending. He taught me everything I know.

Katara: See this necklace? My mother gave it to me.

Haru: It’s beautiful.

Katara: I lost my mother in a Fire Nation raid. This necklace is all I have left of her.

Haru: It’s not enough, is it?

Katara: No.

This isn’t just a throwaway moment; it’s an important character moment that leads up to growth and the progression of Katara’s overall story, both in this individual episode and in the whole series.

Katara finds her power in the connections she’s able to make with other characters. It’s a powerful driving force for her that makes her a strong character even before her bending abilities develop. Imprisoned was such an important episode to establish who Katara is and what her power is, and adds so much to her arc.

But there is one line in particular from the above exchange that also stands out: Haru says “it’s not enough, is it?” and Katara agrees. Even this early in the series, we’re establishing the fact that despite her drive and hopeful outlook, Katara feels deeply hurt, she feels a deep sense of loss that she opens up about to other characters in moments like these. But unlike Haru…Katara can’t go rescue her mother. Her mother is dead, and we see her grapple with that grief throughout the series.

Another character she reaches out to like this is Jet.

Jet: Longshot over there? His town got burned down by the Fire Nation. And we found The Duke trying to steal our food. I don't think he ever really had a home.

Katara: What about you?

Jet: The Fire Nation killed my parents. I was only eight years old. That day changed me forever.

Katara: Sokka and I lost our mother to the Fire Nation.

Jet: I’m so sorry, Katara.

Another important note about Jet is that there are explicit romantic feelings from Katara in this episode. Again, Katara empathizes with another character through a shared sense of loss. Sadly, in this case, Jet manipulated her feelings and tricked her into helping in his plot to flood the village…but those feelings were undeniably there.

That was the tragedy in this episode, but it also gives the audience so much information about Katara as a character: what motivates her, and what she wants. Katara is established as a character who wants someone who will connect with her and empathize with her over her loss—her greatest sense of trauma. She wants to help others but also receive support in return. The reason why she was smitten with Jet, beyond just initial attraction, is because he gave her a sense of that before Katara realized his true motivations.

A lot of people make the claim that Aang is good for Katara because he also feels a sense of great loss and trauma. And while on paper that’s true…does he really demonstrate that? I just gave two examples of characters Katara connected with this way, and both responded with deep empathy to what she said. Very early on in the show—the third episode—Katara attempts to connect with Aang the same way. How does he respond?

Katara: Aang, before we get to the temple, I want to talk to you about the airbenders.

Aang: What about 'em?

Katara: Well, I just want you to be prepared for what you might see. The Fire Nation is ruthless. They killed my mother, and they could have done the same to your people.

Aang: Just because no one has seen an airbender, doesn't mean the Fire Nation killed them all. They probably escaped!

Just compare this exchange to Haru and Jet. No effort to empathize, not even a “sorry for your loss” or anything. It’s a stark contrast, and the reason for that is because this narrative entirely centers Aang. Katara’s narrative always seems to be secondary to his when they’re together—which is exactly my point when I say this relationship has a fundamental lack of mutuality. It’s built that way from the beginning of the series. It does not add to Katara’s arc nor establish what about this dynamic would attract her.

And, look, before someone jumps down my throat about this…I’m not saying Aang is a horrible person for this response. I think it’s a sign that he’s immature and has a fundamentally different approach to problems than Katara. Katara is a character who has been forced to take on responsibilities beyond her years due to being a child of a war-torn world. Aang’s approach to problems is avoidance while Katara never had that luxury. It doesn’t mesh well.

This is all in Book 1. I honestly could have gotten on board with Kataang if the series meaningfully addressed these issues…but it didn’t. In fact, they actually got worse in some ways.

Back to Katara’s mother. We’ve established that this is a core part of Katara’s character and like in the scene with Haru, she indicates that this is an unresolved issue that pains her. But then, in Book 3, Katara actually does get a chance to confront this pain.

This would have been a powerful moment. Surely the character who is meant to be her partner, her equal, would have been there for her. Surely he would have understood and supported her, fulfilling her narrative and adding to her story.

But Aang didn’t do that. I won’t go into details because there are a million analyses out there on The Southern Raiders, but Aang’s response to Katara was the opposite of understanding. He got angry with her, insinuated that she was a monster for wanting revenge, and tried to dictate her behavior according to his own moral values. And importantly, from a narrative standpoint, he did not go with Katara. One of the most important events in her arc, and Aang didn’t support her—he actually tried stopping her. He didn’t contribute to her growth and development.

Also noteworthy:

Katara: But I didn’t forgive him. I’ll never forgive him.

Even at the end of the episode, Aang clearly doesn’t understand at all what Katara is feeling. This line demonstrates it perfectly. He thinks she forgave him when that wasn’t the case at all…but of course, he didn’t even accompany her, so he didn’t see what actually took place. His worldview is fundamentally different from hers, and he’s consistently too rigid in his morality and immature to center Katara’s feelings.

Throughout Katara’s whole arc, her most significant character moments, Aang’s character just doesn’t come through the way Katara’s constantly does for him. Their narrative lacks mutuality. When Katara and Aang are together, she becomes an accessory to him. The ending scene is a perfect demonstration of this.

Now, to address the elephant in the room.

Which character does actually add to Katara’s narrative and support her growth as a character?

Correct! I just talked about how important The Southern Raiders is to Katara’s character and story, how it’s a chance for her to finally address the grief she’s been carrying since Book 1. And who stood by her side throughout this pivotal moment? Right—Zuko did.

You can talk all you want about how he’s a “colonizer” while Aang’s people suffered genocide, but you’re forgetting that “show, don’t tell” is one of the most basic aspects of storytelling. The fact is, despite how it looks on paper, Zuko was the one there for Katara at her critical moments. Zuko empathized with Katara more than Aang ever did—as demonstrated in this episode. Zuko never once brought up his own cultural values. Zuko never once told Katara what to do. Zuko’s position was that Katara should be the one to decide, and that he would support any choice she made. He supported her decision to spare Yon Rha, but he would have also supported her if she decided to kill him. I actually found this episode to be a satisfying reversal to what is typically seen in TV—for once, the female character is centered while her male counterpart takes the backseat and becomes a supporting role to her narrative.

Even before this, Zuko is shown to empathize with Katara.

Zuko: I’m sorry. That’s something we have in common.

I think what gets me about this scene is the fact that he’s still Katara’s enemy, and she was just yelling about how she hates him and his people. But despite that, Zuko still empathizes with Katara. She is fundamentally human to him, and he expresses that to her in a way that allows them to connect. Zuko stands to gain nothing from this. It’s true that Azula entered the picture and twisted things around—but in this moment, Zuko’s compassion is genuine. His instinct was to respond to her grief with empathy, just like she consistently does for other characters.

And finally, how else does Zuko add to Katara’s arc?

I don’t think there is any more perfect of an example than the finale itself—the culmination of the arcs and development of all characters.

Zuko and Katara fight together. In a heartbeat, Zuko asks Katara to fight by his side against Azula, because he trusts her strength. She’s his equal—both in his mind, and in a narrative sense.

Then, this:

Both of their roles are so critical in this fight. They both save each other. The scene has such raw emotion to it. These characters were together at the conclusion of their respective arcs for a reason.

This is the perfect conclusion to Katara’s arc. She just played a critical role in ending the war that has caused her trauma her whole life. She just demonstrated her mastery of waterbending (another thing she’s dreamed of throughout the series) by defeating the world’s most powerful firebender during Sozin’s Comet. Even though she had help as all characters do, these are victories that belong to her and demonstrate the growth and power of her character. And to top it all off? She was able to save Zuko’s life. She didn’t have to endure the pain of feeling helpless to do anything while someone else died for her; this time, she had an active role, she changed her fate, and she prevailed. Zuko plays an important role in Katara’s story without dominating it. They perfectly represent mutuality. They add to each other’s stories. Their narratives become stronger when they’re together, without one diminishing or sidelining the other.

So, from that standpoint, that’s why I always see the attraction between Zuko and Katara and why I see it lacking between Aang and Katara. Zuko and Katara’s story doesn’t need some cheap little throwaway moments to shine. It’s integral to both characters’ stories. We are shown not told of the way these characters feel about each other. Given everything we know about Katara, her goals, her values, her past loves…absolutely everything points to Zuko being the true subject of her feelings.

Because let’s be honest. The ending I just described is so much more powerful and so much more Katara than seeing her being relegated back to a doe-eyed love interest for Aang to kiss. It hardly even made sense—Katara played no role at all at the culmination of Aang’s arc. She was relegated back to a love interest, rather than the powerful figure we saw fight alongside Zuko.

[tofixtheshadows]

I should've made this in the first place to go as a reference to my post about Kabru rarely being shown eating (and when he does it, it isn't pleasurable) and linked it somewhere. I didn't feel like I needed to go through every example and based on people's tags I do think everyone gets it ... but I'm compiling this anyway because I find it really interesting from an artistic/writerly standpoint.

Like, Kabru obviously is eating meals in the abstract sense. But as I said, Kui almost never actually draws him putting food in his mouth. At first I assumed that she was avoiding it to save on space because he needs to be shown talking instead, but as I've looked back, I've noted that she doesn't usually shy away from giving characters speech bubbles even when they're chewing or they have utensils in their mouths. Unless they're Kabru.

This would realistically be the best time to actually show him eating, since it's a normal meal at a normal restaurant, but no. He doesn't actually put food in his mouth in this entire scene. They show him taking a bite in the anime, so I almost forgot, but honestly the manga just makes it look like he's picking at his food. Again: I'm sure he does eat this meal. My point is that I think it's a deliberate choice to keep that off-page, to contrast all the other characters who get to both visibly eat food and enjoy it.

As mentioned, Kabru is only shown drinking wine while his party eats the snacks in chapter 32. I think it's possible to infer that he doesn't actually eat any food here at all.

The harpy egg omelette bit barely counts as eating lmao we all saw him struggling to even swallow a bite down. Let's move on.

Quick sidebar:

Are we all going insane over this panel or is it just me? Okay continue.

Like with the omelette, it gets a checkmark for actually going into his mouth but no checkmark for enjoyment. He hates this. He's being spoon fed bad cake and patronized.

Next:

Literally the worst meal in Dungeon Meshi lmao.

Barometz:

He does actually eat this. Rare Kabru mastication panel, not clickbait. But it's kind of a sad moment when you remember that he was looking forward to a cultural dish of his mother's- literal comfort food from his childhood- and instead got the weird godless crab-meat-plant that is the barometz. This may be the only time Kabru goes looking for comfort, and he's pointedly denied it.

Next:

Yeah he isn't drawn eating during this entire scene either. Only drawn holding the food and his utensil.

As stated: still never shown eating. Deliberately shown getting Mithrun to eat instead. Kabru, the call is coming from inside the goddamn house.

Bavarois is next, and once again it gets a checkmark for actual on-page chewing but as we see, he still hates it and has to concentrate very hard and block out all thoughts of what he's doing in order to swallow it down without making a scene.

Okay. Faligon feast. Kabru does canonically spend days eating for the sake of Laios and Falin! Yay! Caloric fucking intake! Clean plate club!

And yet.

Literally shown stopping himself before he can put the food in his mouth.

Mickbell is so real for this. No one needed to hear a lecture from Senshi more than Kabru.

Anyway. Given how surgically precise Kui is with everything else in this story, I just feel the choice to constantly show Kabru focusing on his worries during mealtimes, instead of drawing him just enjoying food, was purposeful.

[miharuhebinata]

do you mean twilight princess, in which she held a sword exactly once in a flashback and pretty much immediately dropped it in surrender? or wind waker, where she forgets how to use a sword the second she turns into princess zelda until literally the final battle 🤔? and i genuinely can't think of whatever other time you're referring to that she apparently uses a sword. spirit tracks? ok i'll give you that one, i guess, because phantom zelda is pretty badass, but other than that.........??

"ummm actually it's a good thing that zelda plays differently from link, because link has the triforce of courage so of course he fights and uses swords! meanwhile zelda has the triforce of wisdom, so obviously she's going to find more clever ways to solve her problems teehee ;)" hey did you guys know you can still be excited for the game while also acknowledging it's pretty fucking shitty of nintendo to act like zelda is incapable of picking up a sword in a mainline game.

[maxdibert]

Well, after reading Snater arguments on Reddit, there’s something I’d like to comment on. I mean, I’m a lawyer, and I’m a lawyer who advocates for social reintegration, not punishment. So when I think about morally questionable characters, I always think like a lawyer. It’s something I can’t avoid because I spent years memorizing laws, and that fries your brain, so you’re just going to have to bear with me here.

The point is, I don’t give a damn that Snape hung out with the bad guys. I don’t care that he followed Voldemort because, from a legal standpoint, Severus more than paid his debt to the community. First of all, there’s no evidence that Severus killed anyone before Dumbledore asked him to perform a rather shady kind of euthanasia. That means his involvement with the Death Eaters was essentially collaboration with a criminal group. If we take into account that he later switched sides and became cooperative with the “good guys,” then in any trial, that would already significantly reduce his sentence, which, considering that he didn’t commit murder, wasn’t involved in any attempted homicides, and didn’t directly collaborate in major crimes, would already be pretty short.

But if we also consider that after switching sides, he worked as a double agent, then we can count his service as a kind of probation with community service. In other words: serving a sentence. For me, Severus Snape served both time and punishment for the actions he committed. A sentence that was much longer and harsher than his crimes warranted. So I don’t give a damn what he did before because he’s already paid his debt to society, and any democratic legal system would see it that way. And I don’t believe in life sentences or the death penalty because they’re useless, capitalist punishments, so whatever. The point is that Severus paid. He paid with his life, both metaphorically and literally, because from the moment he joined Dumbledore, he had no life of his own. He had no future. His entire world became focused on doing whatever it took to pay his debt to society. A debt that, in the end, led to his death. So, yeah, he might seem like an asshole and a bad person to you, just like I see plenty of assholes and bad people who come into my office, but the reality is, if they serve their sentence, they settle their debt. And Severus paid more than he owed. Honestly, I wish there were lawyers and therapists in the wizarding world—maybe that’s why things are such a mess there, lol.

[givehimthemedicine]

time for my big lumax rantpost. I used to be way more of a shipper but upon reexamining some of my GA-era assumptions, I'm here to tell you why it sucks, and why I don't look forward to lumax endgame if it's the same lumax we've been getting.

lumax has fantastic potential, but needs lots of work to actually become the ship most of the fandom thinks it is.

I get the sense most on here consider lumax ST's darling perfect ship which is sullied by weak and/or racist writing. while I wouldn't argue at all that the writing does right by Lucas, I do think it's important to recognize lumax as an intentionally-written badly flawed relationship, NOT a poorly-written perfect relationship. (the writing for 5 has a lot to prove so we'll see)

lumax is obviously happening. no ending to Lucas's story makes sense other than him getting the girl. however, I don't like that from either character's standpoint.

from hers - Max is not a prize. and from his - Max is no prize.

Max is a pretty shitty girlfriend.

we've never seen her show Lucas any interest in learning anything about him. I can't remember a time she's complimented him, said anything nice about him, or done anything purely for his benefit. virtually all of their serious conversations have been about her, and the scant few that are sort of about him are inevitably just a lead-in to him offering support to her.

Lucas and Max's relationship - pre, during, and post dating - is 100% about what he can do for her. he's the one making 100% of the effort.

it seems like most of their interactions are him walking on eggshells trying to placate, reassure, or convince her, all for the reward of.... what. being allowed to continue existing near her? like yeah, she's a cool girl, but. that can't be it.

what good is getting the girl if the girl doesn't really offer anything?

. . .

through the seasons, semiquickly:

season 2

Lucas and Dustin both like Max, so they invite her trick or treating, offering to protect her from bullies and show her where the good candy is. in other words, the first Max / Lucas interaction is him offering something to benefit her. Max returns no appreciation or even response to the invite, yet still shows up to reap the benefits.

that pretty much sets the tone.

Max wants to be included, but that's a sensitive subject, so she puts on aloof airs to protect herself. it's an act, but nonetheless it's all Lucas receives.

the facade slips on multiple occasions though; Lucas is permitted to see her vulnerability, and we can see she's actually more desperate to make the connection than he is.

Dustin seeks Steve's manipulation tactics to use on Max, but Lucas wins her over by treating her like an equal and offering her genuine friendship.

he risks both his place in the party and his safety/life to include her, gives his undivided attention when she talks to him, asks questions that show his interest and concern, he reassures, uplifts and compliments her, and physically protects her.

in return, Max. uhh. well she does apologize for being a jerk, although she doesn't exactly stop, lmao. this is one of only two moments I can think of when Max reveals any regard for what Lucas thinks of her.

lumax is off-balance before it even starts, although s2 is when I think that dynamic is most permissible. since Max is a newcomer, Lucas has the advantage in many respects, and it makes sense for him to be the one extending a hand to her.

when Billy attacks Lucas for hanging out with Max, he could be gravely hurt if not for Steve taking the beating instead. Max joins in the momentary group hug but never says a word about this. (I suspect the writers mean for Max's bus apology to have proactively served as a veiled "sorry my stepbro is racist" but more felt needed in that moment.)

then they go to the dance and she kisses him and it's cute and everything is happy for ten whole seconds.

between 2 and 3

even though the summer of '85 is "the good days," this relationship is already careening downhill.

we learn that Max has dumped Lucas five times - such a regular occurrence that he takes it in stride and is well practiced at winning her back as a result.

unfortunately it's Lucas taking to heart the "happy wife happy life" policy from his dad that's set up lumax as something that seems to serve only Max. her awareness of the policy means she holds all the cards.

season 3

Max has secured her place in the party and the relationship, and now it's time for her to bring something to the table, but I honestly can't name one thing. it's still Lucas bending over backwards and Max sometimes being a bit of a jerk. (another act. we'll come back to this)

from the start of 3 we see an excessively secure Max and an obsequious Lucas. she doesn't show him any of the vulnerability that made her endearing in 2. they share fun moments, but we can infer that she doesn't treat him very well in ways that matter.

at one point she even plays mad just to watch him panic. you get the feeling this boy can never feel secure in his relationship. yeah she's just teasing, but do you think Lucas is allowed to tease too?

when El comes to Max for advice, she tells her that "boyfriends lie all the time" and this is before we see Lucas lie to her.

when Mike comes to Lucas for advice, he confidently schools him on how to get back in El's good graces by buying her a present - making clear he's been following his dad's advice all summer long and it's been working:

L: Dad? When Mom's mad at you, how do you make her not mad? C: First, I apologize. Then, I get your mother whatever she wants. L: Even when she's wrong? C: She's never wrong, son.

the mall confrontation is the first time we see Lucas really lie to Max, but even then, the girls don't actually have proof Nana isn't sick.

it's telling, actually, that Lucas's loyalty goes to Mike instead of Max in this moment. in s2 it was the other way around (Lucas pissed off the whole party by including her in the group and telling her the truth - a technically banishable offense). but now he's back to his s1 bros before hoes policy, and not only backs up but expands on Mike's lie. after dating almost a year, his loyalty to Max should be even stronger, but here we see the opposite. if Max had been at least as good a friend to him as Mike, I'm inclined to think he would at least have tried to be noncommittal here.

Max is so confident Lucas will have nothing on his mind but winning her back, as always - meanwhile who we actually see Lucas apologizing to is Will.

she may have had Lucas wrapped around her little finger all summer, but we're seeing that start to uncoil. if Lucas apologizes, it's offscreen.

when Billy tries to break out of the sauna to kill Max, Lucas slingshots him and body shields Max during the fight. next thing you know, Max is back to being cliquey with El in the bathroom (making fun of Mike even though he was the only one who did anything to save El's life?? girl you're being shitty to boyfriends that aren't even yours)

they seem to be a couple again by the end of 3, but the relationship is weakened...

between 3 and 4

..which sets the scene for how the two apparently drift when Max ends it once again. she's not playing this time - she uses the term "break up" instead of "dump" and Lucas has accepted that it's over.

depression makes it hard for Max to connect with him, but the way she treated him in 3 has likely also eaten away at his insistence on prioritizing her. if you push someone away over and over you can't be too surprised if they stay further away each time.

so Max withdraws socially and Lucas apparently doesn't go to his usual lengths to pursue her.

he's still making effort though! the "stalking" comment makes it clear he's been trying to approach her. we know he's been inviting her to his basketball games. him already knowing her favorite song as of 4x4 is more evidence of him taking an interest in her between seasons.

he clearly still cares a lot about Max, but good for him for pursuing his own hobbies and friendships as well.

season 4

Lucas finally asks Max to do something to support him for once (come to his game), but she shuts it down hard.

we know Max still cares about him, but that's just it - WE know. he doesn't. to his face, it's bristling rejection even while he literally begs for the chance to support her.

saving Max's life is a group effort, but Lucas knowing her favorite song is the key that saves her life, and it's only after that that she's friendly towards him again.

the only time I can recall Max expressing any concern for Lucas's wellbeing is when she asks if he's okay in 4x6 - and he only gets a few sentences to process Patrick's death before it's time for him to turn it into an apology to her. sigh.

Lucas is the only one of Max's friends to voice any objection to her suicide mission of a Vecna plan, and pitches for them to gamble a stranger's life instead. he once again risks his life to hang out in the Creel house with Max, personally taking on the huge responsibility of making sure she doesn't die.

Vol 2 Max finally shows Lucas some long-awaited appreciation ("you might have been there" and "I'm glad you're here") which is very nice to see.

I'm conflicted about the movie invite scene, but we'll talk about that later. textually: he asks her out, she accepts, it's totes adorbs.

unfortunately, Max being tranced out by the time Jason walks in means it's time for Lucas once again to get attacked by an older, stronger guy who's wrongly convinced he's a danger to her. (again not her fault, but kinda because of her)

everything goes sideways, Max gets Vecna'd, and Lucas holds her while she dies. we end on a bruised Lucas sitting loyally at Max's bedside, reading to her just in case she can hear it inside her coma.

Lucas hasn't been perfect but he has spent yet another season physically protecting and emotionally supporting Max at great personal expense, and with little appreciation and no support in return.

. . .

the movie doodle didn't fix lumax

Max has had an epiphany, but a change of behavior has scarcely begun. being nice isn't the same as making amends. they've resolved zero of the old issues, plus 4 (even if the plan had worked) has heaped a ton of new shit on both of them.

she's still a grieving, neglected, depressed and passively suicidal child of a triply-broken home. dating doesn't fix that. they already broke up once under the same conditions.

plus Max has new catastrophic emotional traumas, some of which which explicitly exacerbate those very issues. she has catastrophic injuries and disability to cope with (and this is a girl who withdraws under stress normally). with a shred of realism, she's waking up in less a mood for dating than ever.

Lucas has also taken on new traumas, between the basketball team stuff, getting beaten up and almost shot/strangled, and watching Max get Vecna'd and die. he already has a history of guilt about not being there for her enough, so he's going to have a lot more about failing her in that moment (definitely not his fault but he'll still feel bad) and will likely be even more focused on her.

to me, this all sounds like a recipe for the same old dynamic except worse than ever. if they get sleeping beauty'd directly back into lumax, it'll be a disservice to both characters.

. . .

now let's talk about why Max treats Lucas the way she does 🔬

she's not a conniving bitch, she's just a scared kid from a toxic home. that doesn't excuse her behavior but it does make it understandable.

Max CAN be a great friend. she's just not to Lucas.

Max absolutely showers El with the good qualities she'll barely show Lucas. in fact I could loosely say Max is to El what Lucas is to Max.

Max is suspicious and disparaging towards Lucas, even while trusting that he can be counted upon to grovel. meanwhile El never apologizes for intentionally hurting Max both physically and emotionally, yet the moment El acknowledges her (only because she wants help), Max is instantly forgiving, kind, gentle, caring, generous and supportive towards her.

she throws her loyalty behind a friend of 1 afternoon over her boyfriend of a year who's been the only person in Hawkins to show her any true kindness and emotional connection.

if Max was half the friend to Lucas that she is to El, she'd be a decent girlfriend. why isn't she?

we can name a few reasons why Max IS so nice to El, but why she ISN'T to Lucas is a separate question. kindness isn't zero-sum.

she told us why. boyfriends lie.

and it's ANY boyfriend, not just hers. Nana's sick? more like Mike's a lying piece of shit! Suzie from camp? fake! Dustin's obviously lying! the only one of the boys Max has never accused of lying is Will - the only one who's been single the whole time.

just. the state of being a boyfriend (or even just liking a girl is close enough), makes any boy automatically a liar.

Max believes "friend" and "boyfriend" are mutually exclusive

"Friends don't lie!" "Yeah, well, boyfriends lie all the time." <- it's all right there.

back in 2 when Lucas was her friend, she was more open and trusting. she gave him the benefit of the doubt that monsters were real and he knew a girl with magic powers. starting to date flipped the switch, and now she doesn't trust him about mundane stuff.

now they're not friends, they're boyfriend/girlfriend, and she expects to be treated in a whole different way, including all the baggage that comes with romantic relationships in her mind.

what baggage?

Max's childhood is full of examples of awful, manipulative men and abusive, broken relationships.

her dad: I'd only be speculating about why her parents' marriage failed, but in 2 Max misses California because her dad is still there, then by 4 acts like it's doubtful he can even be tracked down for delivery of what's basically her suicide letter. it's clear she desired a relationship with her dad but was abandoned. Neil: abusive asshole who rules the household with an iron fist. I'd be shocked if he hasn't abused Susan, and see little reason he wouldn't do it in front of Max (after all, we see him verbally and physically abuse his first wife in front of his son, in a bad fight over suspected lies/infidelity). in his grief over Billy, Neil and Susan have "bad fights" and he leaves the family. he's not missed, but it's still a second abandonment by a father figure. Billy: Max's peer example of guys in relationships: a sleazy, two-faced asshole who treats girls like trash and completely changes his persona to manipulate them for sex or whatever else he wants (Max appears to be all too aware of his sex life and is disgusted). abandonment issues with him too: a good relationship with a big brother would've meant the world to her, but he rejected and probably abused her for years; her letter at his grave reads "ever since you left" - same word she used for Neil.

Max desperately hopes Lucas is an exception to the rule, but these are the behaviors she would naturally fear from any guy she dates.

Max is especially terrified of being abandoned (and that she deserves it)

to be abandoned over and over can naturally leave a kid wondering if it's their fault, if this is the treatment they deserve.

Lucas is overall quite honest, and there's not an abusive bone in his body. the most realistic one of Max's fears to apply to him is that someday he'll leave her, too.

and that's the worst fear Vecna chooses to voice in Lucas's form: realizing he's been wrong about her, that she's fundamentally bad and he's glad she's going to be killed. a gutting abandonment from the guy she most wants to trust.

Vecna-Susan also tells Max that she deserves what's going to happen to her, that she's "broken everything" and that her letters can't make things right. because he's in full Vecna mode when he says it, I just took those as very general condemnations at first. but they hurt even worse when I remember they're still coming from "Susan" - revealing that Max feels she has broken her family.

she wanted Billy to die, and she figures Neil left because Billy died, so that's two of the abandonments being "her fault". if that's true, Max would also feel responsible for destroying her mom's life - having cost her her marriage, home, and financial security.

in her addictions Susans has, in an emotional sense, abandoned Max just like all her other family members - and Max fears she deserves it. how desperate she was for this hug... :(

anyway, back to lumax: let's reexamine those s3 dumpings

what exactly did Lucas even do? we never find out.

on first watch, I took "boyfriends lie" at face value and assumed Lucas got caught fibbing. but that doesn't fit so well.

he's maybe the party member most invested in "friends don't lie". honesty to his friends is a pillar of his character. again, he caused friction in 2 because he so strongly prioritized honesty to Max. to assume based on one line from an unreliable narrator that he randomly became a huge liar over the summer is unfair.

via their counseling of Mike and El, Lucas and Max tell us what's been going on with lumax

Max tells El:

He'll come crawling back to you in no time, begging for forgiveness. I guarantee him and Lucas are totally wallowing in self-pity and misery right now like "ohh, I hope they take us back!"

I think we all clocked that one: Max thinks that because El followed her technique, Mike will come crawling back - because Lucas has come crawling back to her several times now.

but I haven't seen much discussion about how the spying scene (which "he'll come crawling back" is paired with) shows Lucas assuring Mike that he's been dumped for an unfair and illogical reason because that's what Max has done to him several times now.

M: I just don't understand what I did to deserve this. L: Nothing. Nothing. That's my whole point. You are the victim here. Stop asking rational questions. M: I know, I know, you're right. Because women act on emotion and not logic. L: Precisely. It's a totally different species.

Max is pissed. but has she been irrational, acting on emotion and not logic, and dumping him for no apparent reason all summer? signs point to yes.

and I understand Lucas saying this. it's not pure misogyny out of nowhere; he's been told that his mother expects gifts and apologies even when wrong, Max acts that way too, and now so apparently does El. all of his examples concur that this is just how women in relationships are. (Charles Sinclair how many relationships will your advice destroy lmao)

both Max and Lucas are bringing preconceptions from home.

Max acts this way on purpose

I don't think she's dumped him over truly nothing (although that's how it looks to him). I'm thinking she blows real, minor missteps out of proportion.

any time Lucas does something slightly insensitive, it looks like the first red flag to her, and instead of communicating in a constructive way, she just throws up this "boys aint shit" force field and dumps him. of course she doesn't truly want to be rid of him, she's just sorta snapping the leash.

I think Max knows what she's doing. I think she wants to keep Lucas always on his back foot, because the relationship isn't as scary if she feels like she holds all the power.

she's always trying to cover up fear/sorrow with anger, because anger gives an illusion of control. and she's been conscious of that anger, and the fact that it's unfair to Lucas, since the beginning - that's what she apologized for on the bus. "I guess I'm angry too, and I'm sorry."

she was mature enough at 13 to see the error in her behavior, but still not mature enough by 15 to fix it. every season has just been a slightly different flavor of "leave before you get left".

so, that's my take on Max's relationship behavior. but again, explanations aren't excuses. Lucas deserves to be treated well, and that's not happening.

what needs to happen?

simply maturing more will help them both a lot. being 15 is a terrible condition in of itself.

I don't see Lucas dumping Max's ass, but she should take her own advice before the relationship continues: explain herself and fix the garbage parts of her behavior.

before Max can be the girlfriend Lucas deserves, she needs a substantial period of physical and emotional healing.

she needs renewed connections with her friends and family, and a lot of general growth in the area of communication and processing her feelings.

in regards to Lucas, she needs to work on her trust issues, and learn to extend him the treatment warranted by his behavior, not the behavior she fears from others. she needs to learn that "friend" and "girlfriend" aren't mutually exclusive, that real friendship is the key to their relationship, and is a two-way street.

any Billy racism/assault acknowledgement would be better years late than never, especially if grieving Billy continues to be a focus in front of Lucas.

Lucas could also use a little work

the relentless positivity doesn't serve Max well. often it turns out to be empty reassurances which make her feel let down (so, a soft version of the lies she fears). she let him know in 4x4 that this hurts her, but he kept doing it for the rest of the season.

but the big one is that "happy wife happy life" doesn't serve him well, and rewarding unfair treatment perpetuates the problem. yes, the ability to compromise, swallow pride, and be the bigger person are healthy parts of a relationship, as well as the willingness to extend grace to your partner/friend when they're struggling. but it always being on one designated person is a recipe for dissatisfaction and resentment.

Lucas should voice to Max that he, too, has struggles and needs support. I'd like to see him pursue outside interests unapologetically.

no, this isn't an exhaustive list, and I don't expect to see everything fixed at once, or explicitly processed onscreen. but I sure hope we get some evidence of change, and that this has all been part of an arc.

for instance, I'd love for the final lumax reconciliation to be Max asking Lucas to take her back.

I kind of hope not to see them officially together until the very end. in fact I'd so much rather see ST end on a good Max / Lucas friendship with an implied romantic future than jump back to the status quo.

l don't want to see lumax until it's a new lumax, based on real, reciprocal friendship.

[meemoop]

as someone whos seen the harry potter fanbase always like do weirdly homophobic caricatures of queer ships and couples (making the “bottom” shorter and more feminine and the “top” overly masculine - both wolfstar and drarry are the prime victims of this. w the one “dominating” usually being darker skinned while the lighter skinned pair is small and petite), i think your take on drarry is actually kinda refreshing? as in yeah you still make draco feminine and kind of slim-figured but you dont compromise his personality for it, like yeah thats still draco malfoy and not an overly-sexualized caricature. you make jokes about him being a twink or a bottom but thats not All he is. i like your character designs so much because of that, really shows how you care about these characters

and also draco being taller than harry is So real, i hate it when people make him shorter bc hes the “bottom” like let him be tall!! hes tall in canon!! and harry is short and a dork and a weirdo and thats drarry. you treat them as normal people and i think thats the most important thing, and it shows in your character designs and writing

Thank you this is so nice to hear after being accused of homophobic caricatures! I’m glad a lot of you understood why I designed my characters this way, and could see it from a satirical, artistic standpoint, rather than hateful social commentary. For me, no matter what kind of couple, I think it’s important to have contrast, but in a balanced sort of way, and for you to understand it makes me so happy. And I totally agree, Draco is a lanky, tall king. As he should be 💖thank you for your words, it eases my mind so much 🥹🫶 (ALL ART STYLES ARE BEAUTIFUL 🗣️)💗💗

[coddda]

Hiiiiiii. Episode 25/26 lawlight analysis rant thingy here. I don't know how to write an intro for this so let's just get to it LOL

I think one of the reasons that the rain/foot scenes stick out so much (the. Sheer insanity of a Foot Massage Scene in an anime revolving around two guys trying to kill each other aside 💀) is the fact that the anime specifically suffers a bit in terms of adapting a few of the "emotional" moments in death note.

And I don't mean "emotionally impactful" exactly. For example I think the adaptations of scenes like Raye and Naomi's deaths were very impactful and the atmospheres of their final scenes were great, but I mean more from a characterization standpoint (if that makes sense). Being more focused on mind and logic games, Death Note as a whole isn't as invested in individual characters' deeper feelings as it is in its action (which isn't necessarily a criticism per say, it's simply part of the nature of a mystery thriller series). But just because they're fewer and farther between doesn't mean there are none at all. In the manga we do get to see, for example, how much Light actually cared for his family and especially Sayu, and how he actually felt more conflicted and suffered lack of sleep/appetite when he first used the Death Note.

The anime specifically as an adaptation is pretty good at adapting the main mind fuckery and action of Death Note, but its lacking in properly adapting scenes like the ones I mentioned above is a criticism I see somewhat often, and it's pretty fair imo. Compared to all the other adaptations, it certainly seems to fall short on an emotional level: the musical has entire songs going in depth about the characters feelings and relationships, the 2015 jdrama is. Insane and has its emotional moments in spades (because it's a TV drama, which are more focused on portraying emotional conflict and the like), even the 2006 movies has its emotional beats and L Change the WorLd is. Well. Oh Man.

Anime Light to a lot of people is like. Light but he's "already evil" (which I have my own thoughts on but I digress). Light but after using the Death Note for like 2 minutes he's already like "fuck yeah time to kill criminals". Basically the anime doesn't take as much time to delve into his less cynical sides or really delve into his already vague and harder to decipher feelings in general, he is noticeably colder from the get-go here, etc.

But that's part of why I think episode 25 manages to stand out so much tonally (apart from it being, y'know, the episode L literally Dies). I love the episode so much and could probably rant for hours about how much I love the artistic choices made in it but what I'm trying to get at here is that it's one of the very few moments where the show tries to go deeper into specific character's emotions, and one of the very few moments where the show Attempts (emphasis on "attempts" because, well, you'll see in a bit) to get more in-depth into Light's feelings apart from his cynicism/apathy/justice. ness.

L in these two scenes in episode 25 is, well, pretty damn open about how he feels. It's usually interpreted as him knowing that he's going to die, and you can see it. He visibly looks/sounds lost, somber, etc. He never really had much to hide around Light to begin with (since he doesn't really care about hiding himself the same way Light does) but especially not now and it Shows, and I personally thought it was pretty cool to delve into his thoughts/show how he feels this way. The somberness can be felt throughout the entire scene, even people who don't already know the plot of Death Note from the manga could probably tell that he's about to die.

In the manga, once L starts suspecting Misa again and Rem realizes what Light is trying to do, it goes straight to Watari and L's deaths, but the anime instead gives a distinct and unexpected pause in the middle of this where L contemplates his own death. It's fucking great, and the shift from straight action to slower emotional weight makes these scenes stand out a lot, since, like I said, the show usually focuses more on the former. But it's kind of ironic, too.

Not only does the anime open up L's feelings more in these scenes, but it also tries to dig deeper into Light's feelings as well through L. And it's really funny honestly because while, yes, these are the more "emotionally open" scenes of the anime Light still manages to be Incredibly avoidant and contribute almost nothing to the entire ordeal.

L is visibly upset -> "Yeah Ryuzaki, you're not making any sense at all" (Not addressing the obvious conflict from L)

"Tell me, Light. From the moment you were born, has there ever been a point where you've actually told the truth?" -> "[The most stale, over-explained, avoidant answer to a "yes/no" question that you could ever hear + blatant attempts to reframe the question]"

(L's half-smile here kills me) "I had a feeling you'd say something like that" -> [Nothing]

"I'm sorry" -> [Nothing]

"It'll be lonely won't it? You and I will be parting ways soon" -> [Nothing]

^ From this point Light continues to say literally Nothing for the rest of the scene. I'm not even joking, from then on the rest of Light's voicelines are reduced to nothing but vague noises of confusion.

Everytime L calls Light out as a person ("Has there ever been a point where you've actually told the truth?" / "I had a feeling you'd say something like that." / "Won't it be lonely?") he doesn't actually acknowledge anything. Out of those three lines, he only answers verbally to if he's ever told the truth, and even then it's the most blatantly people-pleasing answer ever, as it usually is with Light. And I don't think it's because Light just. Doesn't care about any of what L's saying at all, or that he doesn't know what the hell he's talking about (questioning Light's authenticity as a person, saying it would be lonely when they part), instead he's choosing not to acknowledge any of what this means about himself or him and L at all. He's like a fucking wall.

And like, for the truth question in particular, the show makes sure that you know it's not something that Light just. Doesn't care enough about to answer. The hard cuts to silence are a very rare but extremely effective way that the show conveys an extremely important moment (see: Light regaining his memories, Matsuda noticing Light opening the warehouse door before he escapes (not as much of a "direct" cut to silence but still)), and cuts to multiple angles/framings/zooms of the exact same shot are also used for the same purpose (see: Light hugging Misa when she was crying, Matsuda aiming his gun to shoot Light, Light regaining his memories Again). Just like the scene where Light gets his memories back, the moment L's question finishes the show utilizes both. That question cut Deep. There's is a solid Almost 5 seconds of silence before the sound of the rain gradually starts fading back in, and honestly that should be telling enough as is (but of course Light doesn't actually admit that. Or anything at all really, so). Oh also another fun detail! We do not see Light's face At All (except for the shot where you can see his mouth moving but not his eyes), for the Entire time that he's going on his spiel to L. We Will Be Revisiting This Later, by the way. This is not, in fact, the first time you're going to see this detail from Light.

The only sort of reciprocation that we see from Light during Any of these two scenes is when Light dries L's hair while L dries his feet. Biblical meanings/references aside it's interesting because it's the only time he directly does anything "for" L in these scenes, but even then he doesn't try to pass it off as anything meaningful really the same way L does ("You're still soaked", a purely neutral and factual statement. It doesn't Add Anything compared to L's. Sin atonement loneliness grieving stuff. While Light is showing his own reciprocation to this more personal moment he also tries to keep it impersonal enough that it doesn't actually have to mean anything deep). And when L says "I'm sorry" after he once again gets no response from Light. It's also after this that L gets that pained look on his face, like he knows that at this point he's not actually going to get anything meaningful from Light (again, very significant and rare from L in the show. We've seen him in distress (see: when Ukita died, hell, when Watari dies), but even then he mostly manages to keep his usually neutral expression), we never see him "look sad" like he does here):

I just think it's interesting that this is one of the few scenes in this particular adaptation of Death Note where they try to open up the character's thoughts/feeling (especially considering the fact that they. lowkey blunder in adaptations of original scenes from the manga), and L himself is being rather open (not that he ever really tries to hide what he thinks nearly as much as Light), and yet all Light contributes to it in return is like. Actually nothing. Bro fumbled it. There is no resolution to any of this, to any of what L asks at all, to any of the many opportunities for a meaningful conversation, and the only thing even relatively close to an answer that you can get from Light is what you can infer from how he acts in the episode after L dies, where he's just going through the motions, but hardly acting as if he's actually living at all.

(Honestly I think the transition from this scene with the taskforce to the subsequent scene with Misa says enough on its own. Light's expressions and tone says everything:)

(Oh sidenote but. This shit again:

"Light, this is our first date in forever. can't you enjoy yourself a little more?" ('Why don't you seem happy? We can finally be together since L is dead') -> No response, Light instead changing the topic to him wanting to move in with Misa without changing his mannerisms at all

Also there's that one detail again. You pretty much don't see Light's expression when he speaks here at all, except for one shot of his eyes, which is quite literally the exact same shot they used when he "saw" L, just altered for the new setting. You have No idea what he looks like when he's responding to Misa, although it's probably fair to assume that it's the same empty stare he has for the whole Two Shots where you can clearly see his whole expression in the entire scene.

Something something Light Yagami bad at feelings I think you get the point though)

I guess Light's Kind of showing what he's feeling now? He'll admit to himself that it's boring without L, but no more than that. Light never actually admits to anything "significant", and L's dead already anyway, so what would that even do?

And then we get, uh. Basically nothing from Light. For the next 5 Years. Except that he joined the NPA, so, uh, yay? Good job, Light you totally nailed it! Thank you for allowing us as an audience to delve deeper into your inner thoughts and feelings as a character so we can find out more about you as a person! Very helpful! Thank you for not sabotaging one of your few dedicated opportunities to look into yourself as a person and reflect on your relationships with others and being 100% honest with yourself! We stay winning guys.

Anyway, this got way too long for a scene that's over a decade old, and I've probably just said everything that everyone else has already said in this fandom before. But unfortunately this has been living in my head for way too long and I must scream. I just think this episode's neat is all :)

tl;dr Part of the reason why the rain/foot scene (tbh episode 25 in General) stands out so much is because the Death Note anime specifically was a bit robbed in terms of its more emotional character moments compared to the other medias, which makes more somber/introspective scenes like the ones in episode 25 stand out a Lot in comparison. But it's also incredibly ironic because it's one of the few moments where the show (or specifically L) tries to look deeper into Light's character, but because he is so avoidant for the entire duration of these two scenes he adds basically nothing at all. It's almost funny. Mostly sad. It's also very gay. Aand post

Okay actually nevermind one more thing I talked about how the jdrama is supposed to be more emotionally in-depth because it is a TV Drama and just for the record, same thing happens there! I could probably do an entire analysis of the Blue Scene in this context like I did with episode 25 but I'd literally be here forever, so uh, just take this iconic line as my main example:

Same Thing. L's statement "I wish we could have met some other way" is personal. It's his own wish, his own regret that he is expressing to Light. While Light's reply obviously has that same regret implied it's also phrased in a specifically impersonal way. It's closed off. "This is the only way we could have met" it closes off the topic and simply renders L's wish as ultimately futile. Light does not say that he Also wishes he could have met L a different way even if it was likely impossible, instead it's a cold statement of cynical fact.

Idk just. Something something L being able and Willing to be more openly sentimental/emotionally open towards Light/about Light vs. Light's inability to be honest with anyone including himself and his own nature preventing any form of meaningful reciprocation. Something something self-sabotage, y'know the drill. God don't even get me Started on how sincere L's tone is when he says "It'll be lonely won't it?"(at least in the eng dub) in the anime I could talk about his tone in that scene for ages. Also yes all of this relates to L Change the WorLd too by the way. Don't ask how it just does okay.

I do think that scenes like these (rain/foot scene, The Blue Scene. Uh. L Change the WorLd The Novel Adaptation) show, at least in those adaptations, that L does genuinely care for Light, and show that he values him as a friend not just in the mindgame-equal sense but also just like, a more sincere sense you know. Idk if that made any sense and that's a whole other topic for another day but you guys just have to believe me on this one alright please please believe me buries head in hands. Okay post over finally thanks for coming to my tedtalk hope you enjoyed my very-unnecessarily long analysis of the week