givehimthemedicine

[givehimthemedicine]

So...How Old Is Jane, Really?

Following up on this post about some time messiness I've noticed during my rewatch of ST. Again, if this has been talked about before, I haven't seen mention of it. So...bear with me.

1983, less 5 years, is 1978. That throws an initial wrench into "Terry tried to break El/Jane out of HNL in 1974".

It means all this ought to have happened in 1978:

However, Becky also says:

Terry has had Jane's nursery put up for 12 years. That means Jane should have been born in 1971, which means Jane should have been seven years old when Terry broke into HNL, which aligns well enough with El in ST4 being 7 years old mid-1979:

Okay, so let's say Terry did break into HNL in 1978 rather than 1974. What's the big whoop?

Well. The little blonde girl in Kali's rainbow room was played by Clara/Charlotte Ward, both of whom were 3-4 years old at the time (born 2013, ST2 was released in 2017).

So it's either Terry broke into HNL around 1974, saw 3-4 year old Jane (1971), and has been mind-broken for about 7 years, with Jane being 12 years old in 1983...or Terry broke into HNL in 1978, saw 3-4 year old Jane (1975), and has been mind-broken for 5 years, with Jane being 9 years old in 1983.

Someone's lying here...or mistaken.

This begs the question, at least from my end:

What if I've been thinking about it the wrong way? What if there's more than one Jane, rather than one Jane and one El?

What if we're dealing with two different Janes, one of whom is El?

So...what if this blonde girl is some other Jane, a girl who's years younger than Becky's Jane (1971)? This girl would have been born around 1975, which is congruent with one of the newspaper articles El leafs through in ST2 about Terry and baby Jane:

"...culminating in the abduction of Ives' baby daughter in the mid-1970s."

1971 is not the mid-1970s. The mid 1970s is 1974-1976. If Jane was born and abducted in the mid-1970s, then Terry's break-in would have to be after that point. So...Definitely not 1974. It's not physically possible, and it's not plausible, either, given the dates I laid out above from Becky. It's more likely to be around 1978.

This is later corroborated by the newspaper article we see during Terry's dream circle, when she's retrieving her gun from the safe:

"...as a special inquiry into a covert CIA operation, code-named MK Ultra, has expanded the extensive details about that which has been haunting the nation for the past decade."

MK Ultra was revealed to the public at large in 1975-1976, which means Terry could not have been retrieving her gun to break in before 1975 while also having this article exist the way it does.

The newspaper shown in that screenshot simply cannot exist before June 11th, 1975. It is physically impossible, given that MK Ultra is mentioned by name. Terry could not have broken in in 1974.

Additionally, the fact that the article mentions an expansion of details, especially when paired with that the article specifically says "that which has been haunting the nation for the past decade", leads me to believe it may have been written closer to 1977:

...given that MK Ultra was officially halted in 1972:

...meaning that any article written around 1977-1978 would have been referencing about a decade's worth of material/the nation would have been haunted by a) an article on other non-MK Ultra CIA operations published in December of 1974, b) the Rockefeller Commission's report in 1975, c) the Church Committee's report in 1976, and d) the FOIA discovery in 1977—in other words, as I said, events from the majority of the 1970s, aka "the past decade".

This same text (though in a different article...what is this, their Lorem Ipsum? Look how they duplicated the right-most paragraphs in the pic below) can be seen in ST1 as well:

We can even see both Richard and Martin Brenner being named in these texts, both of which create a network of "Jane was born in the mid-1970s, meaning Terry could not have come looking for her before the mid-1970s" and "MK Ultra was revealed to the public in 1975, meaning Terry could not have broken in before 1975 at the very earliest", which means regardless of which Brenner you're reading about...Terry broke in later than the fandom has been assuming.

This leads me to believe, given a lack of solid contradictory evidence, that Terry did, in fact, break in around 1978.

This is corroborated by the accessory comic Six, which states that Terry broke in in 1978. Accessory comics and novels, while not strictly canon, have been known to have small canon details peppered in before those things actually appear in canon (like Will seeing what appears to be Vecna's mindscape in a comic released years before ST4).

Terry could not have broken in before June of 1975, and yet...fandom wiki says 1974. And based on what?

An Instagram post.

When the actual show explicitly says differently? This is why we don't blindly trust the Wiki, kids. It doesn't tell the full truth.

Canon says Terry broke in after 1975. Canon specifically says she broke in circa 1978.

Anyway, the real questions remain:

Was Jane 6-7 in 1978, or was she 3-4?

Was Jane 11-12 in 1983, or was she 8-9?

Will Jane be 15-16 come 1987, or will she be 12-13?

The answer is...yes! (depending on which Jane you're referring to)

Which circles me right back around to the usual culprits.

Which like. Let me cook, ok?

An age gap of 12-13 (actor age)

and 15-16 (character age)?

Plus, some other bits and bobs linking Nell to Jane:

Alice in Wonderland

Casting and Costuming choices #1

Casting and Costuming choices #2

I'm wondering if I wasn't more correct here, here, and here than I originally thought.

[givehimthemedicine]

Most blessed type of fandom experience tbh

[givehimthemedicine]

au where the Byers take El in instead of Mike or Hopper.

El, freshly escaped from the lab and afraid of men. she's literally never met a man who didn't want to control or hurt her.

it's the Byers who live in the cabin in the woods, semi-off-grid, not in hiding or shunned or anything, they just like to keep to themselves. it's a very modest existence, but they like it. the house is full of love.

El happens upon Castle Byers in that thunderstorm and takes refuge.

Will pulls back the little curtain the next morning and she's in there asleep. he decides to go away quietly and tell Joyce. his foot snaps a twig. she bolts awake and they both stare at each other huge eyed. she's spooked but Will talks to her gently and it's soon clear he's not a threat.

he brings her food and blankets and she lives in there for a few days before agreeing to let Will take her to Joyce.

he relays what little he's gleaned about "bad men" and Joyce hasn't had great experiences with men either and she's readier than most to take El in without a ton of questions. El cautiously accepts Joyce's warmth and care, although she's clearly always wondering what the catch is. no one's ever shown her kindness without strings. it's a little bit of a surprise each morning when she's still there.

they tell El about Jonathan but it's a couple days before El actually sees him. she freezes, because he's something between man and boy. she thinks of Two. he thinks of Lonnie. he keeps his distance and very slowly earns her trust. they end up buds but it takes a while.

Will and El bond really quickly. it's "will you be like my brother" except yes. he shows her all his stuff and the chickens and the garden. she seems wary of animals but she's mesmerized by the plants and the dirt and the sky. he tells her stories about knights and dragons and magic that she doesn't realize are fictional because she can do the things he calls magic.

the first time she uses her powers in front of him, he's so dumbstruck that she has the first belly laugh of her entire life.

the affection she gets from all three of them, each in their own way, is foreign and strange and confusing and she's never wanted anything more.

no upside down just feral Byers family goodness

[givehimthemedicine]

Oh no...

[givehimthemedicine]

Lol sure, shit on El and Mileven (which you instead call it these stupid joke names like Milkvan because you're so funny) and post about Byler and then claim that you don't ship it. Whatever works for you.

??? idk if you're new here or what, but people call it milkvan etc. as a courtesy to keep negative discussion out of the ship tag.

I'm not sure what I've said that could be misconstrued as "shitting on El" - is it just that you've misidentified me as a byler, and hating El is the only reason you can conceive of for not shipping Mike with her?

I'm not into either ship. I dislike mileven because it's a poor romantic match which is stunting both characters. I don't care whether byler happens because neither of those characters especially interest me. yes, I do occasionally mention byler whenever the themes or whatever I'm discussing lead me there as a logical conclusion. I don't have to ship them instead to understand that the narrative does not support mileven. the two aren't a binary.

I don't think reading byler as more likely endgame constitutes "shipping it" but whatever you'd like to think is fine I guess, I don't really care. you do you, just don't bother people about it.

[givehimthemedicine]

Due to popular demand, i have decided to touch grass and nature for the first time today. While it was an interesting enrichment to my enclosure (i have never left my house) , my opinions on the show remain unchanged.

[givehimthemedicine]

Milkvan seriously why do yall girls shit on mileven exactly?

Legit never living down how it’s only popular because it’s two boys then proceeding to shit on the girl just because she’s in the “way”

YAY GIRL POWER like right! Let’s all support our fellow women in support of two boys kissing what a lovely world we live in women continuing to get shit on

genuinely not even sure which post you could've misread badly enough to result in this ask lol? I don't even ship byler?

[givehimthemedicine]

will + s1 // henry

[givehimthemedicine]

Mike and Will are the only non flayed/lab people to be able to see El in the void, putting them apart from other characters in terms of powers / connection to the supernatural

[givehimthemedicine]

I truly don't understand the appeal for b*lers who are rooting for either El to die or Will to get powers like El's. in fact if I wrote for that ship that's exactly the au I'd write, because I love putting characters in the hydraulic angst press. I'd make El die sacrificing herself for Will specifically, give him powers, and put him and Mike together. in that order.

it's very sad about El, but with her and the supernatural stuff gone, Will can sorta pretend these years were a bad dream and he's skipped right to the good ending of old-time normal. he got the boy and can shoot wizard fireballs or whatever. for a while, that's awesome.

but ultimately it's monkey's paw shit. Will is miserable. deep down he worries whether Mike just likes whoever has superpowers. Mike swears that's not it, and it probably isn't, but the timing will always be suspicious. he thinks about faking losing them, but that might just make it worse.

he worries he's just a second-best consolation prize. he worries that Mike never truly chose him over El.

he's plagued by the scenario of El coming back somehow. of Mike honoring his commitment but secretly wishing to be with her instead - because that would be worse, honestly, than Mike just leaving.

at first it's just her name or photo that stir up feelings. but in time, she's haunting him from the corners of book pages, his wristwatch, the ending digits of his first credit card which he seriously considers calling the bank to ask changed.

he does love her, of course he does, but he lacks the luxury of the simple mourning and missing that all their friends gets to feel for her. he lives in guilt about the fact that he feels dread, more than as much as joy, at the concept of El somehow coming back.

the worst part is: he's only 99.989% sure it's not within his new powers to bring her back.

[givehimthemedicine]

ok confession time, I've seen 2800 references to the wicked-milkvan-bones "side eye" that El gives Mike at the cabin but I do not see it. you can't see where she's looking. I guess there's one moment where her eyes pass in Mike's general direction with neutral expression? is that it?

[givehimthemedicine]

everyone's talking about "oh look, nancy and el content!" or "oh my gosh! more hopper and mike stuff!!!" but why are we brushing past the fact that there is going to be JOYCE AND ROBIN CONTENT???

LIKE, HELLO??? this dynamic could be AMAZING??? supportive mom + a dorky lesbian??? SERIOUSLY!!

[givehimthemedicine]

watching st again is interesting bc it really has me here like. oh okay everyone took “will is sensitive and artistic and quiet” and interpreted it as “he’s nice and sweet and kind” when those are not synonyms

yes will is explained as being a “good kid” and he is kind, but he’s not any more “good” than the rest of the party? they’re all fairly on-par with each other in those areas

so idk. i think people need to remember that just bc someone is soft and quiet, it doesn’t mean they’re a saint. it just means they’re soft and quiet

[givehimthemedicine]

NETFLIXXXXXXX

make an anime please.... YOU WOULDNT WANT ME TO DO IT HMMM?

[givehimthemedicine]

Madwheeler and Super-El: Max and Mike's perspectives on El as the (super)hero

working on another post pondering El's role as "the hero" vs the way the show really doesn't support that concept, and places huge importance on teamwork instead.

the hero is usually the strong/capable one expected to take all the risks and save the day, and other characters feel free to throw them at danger without fearing too much for their safety, especially if they also have powers. but when the hero is a little girl, that's harder.

so today I'm chewing on how El is viewed in that light by the two people closest to her - both of whom are prone to contextualizing her powers through a fantasy lens.

so, here comes one of my favorite El-Max topics, but also one where I've shortchanged Mike in the past. I need to revise some of the old stuff I've said about Bad Guy Mike identifying El as a superhero vs Good Guy Max identifying El as just a girl with superpowers. that was a pretty superficial read on both ends.

(I'm sure the Mike parts will be kindergarten review for his fans/analysts, but I don't usually pay him much attention; this is aimed more at the Mike-hater/ignorer elmax crowd I spawned from)

this is a long ramble, but a fun one I think!

let's start with Max.

for her, El begins as a mythological figure. she doesn't believe she exists as described by Lucas. but then El proves her existence via a very badass entrance, and it only supports Max's idea of her as some kind of invincible, superhero-esque figure.

Max scoffs at the idea of El needing Hopper's protection at the lab. actually, El does need it, bigtime! closing the gate takes all her focus, and without Hopper there to fend off demodog attacks, she probably couldn't have done it.

Max doesn't see that, though, and presumably spends little or no time around El between seasons, so her first impression goes unchallenged for almost a year.

we find s3 Max locked in HARD in her faith in El as the hero who can solo the baddie, take care of herself, and save everyone else. she seems to picture that having superpowers means El has nothing to fear.

the sauna is the first time Max actually sees El fight, and it doesn't go how she expects

El fights Billy, but gets overpowered at one point. everybody's stunned: this is the first time any of the party has ever seen El not decisively win a fight, so "uhhh... should we do something?" doesn't kick in instantly. Max and the others watch as El gets choked purple. only Mike intervenes to save her life and give her a moment to regain control of the fight.

"like she needs protection" and "you have super powers! what's the worst that could happen?" age like milk here. this is when Max sees that El is not invincible and needs help. lesson learned!

... ehh well.. actually what happens is, Max doubles down on her solo-hero-El stance after this and has a bigtime attitude about it.

and, okay, I'm ready to admit that Max's overconfidence towards El's abilities leads to her treating El more like she's a superhero than Mike does during this era. not her intent, but, what's said is said. (I'll get into it, bear with me)

when Mike worries about El endangering herself, Max accuses him of not respecting El's right to make her own choices. when Lucas suggests killing the MF with fireworks, she eyerolls him for thinking any non-El approach could be of value.

nobody was 100% right or wrong, but I see Max having the most crow to eat after all this. Mike was right to worry about El's limits and fear for brain damage: she loses her powers entirely (in the sense that this is later likened to the brain-scrambling of a stroke, can it not be said that El did take brain damage from the MF? not exactly how Mike meant it, but?). and Lucas is no dummy for the fireworks idea: it's all that stops El from getting flayed at one point.

El still helps save the day in s3, but as the big powerful solo hero? nah. least of any season. Max's repeated bets on her powers lose.

so why did watching El almost die in the sauna seem to have no effect on Max's perception of her? why does she still assert that El alone will kick all the flayed butts in 3x6, after she needed some nerd's help kicking (1) flayed butt in 3x4?

there is a visible effect! just not the one you expect right away.

mid-3 is Max's guilt and denial era

3 is when all the issues are coalescing that leave Max depressed in 4: she wished for something terrible to happen to Billy, and now it is, so it feels like it's her fault. she's not ready to cope with the guilt that comes from that, or any of the other dominos that are falling as a result.

"I just stood there and watched" is textually about Billy and the flesh monster. but if Max feels guilt for inaction, she would have similar feelings about El in the sauna, where she also took no action.

Max specified that her inaction with Billy wasn't because she was scared or weak, but because she didn't know if he deserved to be saved. It being a decision not to act is why she feels so terrible about it. I see no reason to think it was radically different in the sauna: I could completely buy that she somewhat chose not to act because she didn't think El needed to be saved.

I don't think either are cases of Max blaming herself for an uncontrollable freeze response, because we see multiple illustrations of her not having that response, whether it's herself or others in danger.

post-sauna, Max has plainly seen that El did need protection, and is struggling with the fact that she didn't provide any. the bathroom scene is when her guilt is the clearest, imo.

watch how she gets lost in the sight of El's bruises and stops what she's doing, and the way she asks if it hurts. you can imagine her logic in feeling like those bruises are her fault: both for "causing" the greater situation and for not making a move to help.

but what's really telling is the abrupt change of subject and tone from "are you in pain?" to "lol that Mike's a yapper amirite?". she has a lot of nerve putting Mike down after he's the one who just saved El's ass, right? but that's exactly why she does it. this is 14 year old coping with heavy feelings in an immature manner, as they'll do.

choosing Mike isn't just a random "lol madwheeler worsties" attempt to cheer El up. it's an attempt to bury her shame at her own inaction compared to his action in the sauna. by getting a laugh out of El at Mike's expense and shifting the theme of the scene towards making fun of the boys, she's steering into waters that reflect more favorably on herself, and her bond with El, than him/his.

so I think that's one big reason Max is doubling down on her confidence in El in mid-3: to absolve her guilt. she's trying to convince herself that El really CAN take care of herself despite what she saw. because if El is superheroically powerful, Max has nothing to feel guilty about (and in fact, is El's only good, supportive friend for having faith in her!)

season 3's war of the sexes

here's another reason I think Max doubles down. she has some male-specific trust issues at play behind the scenes in this season that have been messing up her relationship. as a result of El coming to her for advice, Max's private personal trauma-foibles get projected out into this "stupid boys" war of the sexes that clogs up most of the party's season.

why do I bring up trust issues? because Max does. her framing in the cabin argument is pretty bullshit: she spins Mike's concern for El's wellbeing into an issue of trust. which is a kinda odd word for the situation, especially considering it does not play to her advantage.

look at her regret that she let that word escape containment lmao:

Max thinks boyfriends can't be trusted, so it follows that girlfriends should always be trusted - and "trust" here means "trust El to save the day without killing herself". even though I trust it's been explained to her that that's classic El behavior.

she presents her case to Nancy and Jonathan, but a fair trial for Mike goes out the window when only Nancy weighs in. yep, the Nancy who's fresh off her own war with Jonathan about workplace misogyny and how he should've trusted her about the rat story. so Nancy's ruling (while none of it is wrong) has a heavy bias in the same direction as Max's, and totally glosses over the valid aspects of what Mike's saying. lmao at the way Jon mutes himself for this discussion. she's never wrong, son.

El's agency and ability prevail as the only real issues among the loudest voices in the room - neither of whom share the trauma of already having witnessed El exercise both to sacrifice herself.

oh, but then look what happens as soon as El starts losing another fight:

at least some of that was denial, because it ends abruptly right here. Max doesn't need it anymore, because she has something way better: another chance.

I think if the sauna truly hadn't changed Max's mind about El, then Max would've done the same thing here (stood and watched). but she doesn't. this time when El gets overpowered fighting the flesh monster and almost gets yoinked, Max jumps in to help pull her back.

(this is how we can be sure Max's inaction with Billy and the FM wasn't merely a freeze response. "I imagine myself running to you, pulling you away" - they showed her able and willing to do exactly that for El)

this is a huge step. but still, the anti-Lucas-fireworks stuff happens even after this. (she's a work in progress, okay?)

in fairness, El's powers are the more effective approach. she still has them here, and nobody foresees her losing them over a leg injury. if all had gone as expected, El would've probably done the heavy lifting in another FM fight at the mall. Max doesn't have to be so dismissive of conventional backup plans, but she's not wrong-wrong about this particular one, either: fireworks don't kill the FM. they're an invaluable distraction, yes, but not fatal.

by this point, Max understands now that El needs help/protection even though she has powers, but still places her faith in those powers above all else to handle the supernatural fighting. which I'd call a fairly reasonable, if sucks-to-be-El assessment.

more progress is made when El loses her powers:

this little piece of action is sooooo tasty as a bookend to the sauna scene.

this time, Max doesn't wait to see how the fight goes and then jump in for backup if needed. she takes the defensive lead this time, stepping out in front. none of these three have the physical strength to beat Billy, so she figures that as Billy's stepsister, the responsibility falls to her to try to stop him a different way. doesn't work even a little bit, but, credit for the effort to defend. (Mike too, full credit for trying)

s4 Max on El's power loss

we don't know of anything Max ever said TO El regarding her power loss. but during her curse era in season 4 she's still out there wishing for El to get her powers back.

this line was a rock in my shoe for awhile because I thought Max should've grown past the solo-hero-El mindset after s3. I wish the burden wasn't always on El, and I'd like to see Max express that too, and spend more time helping think of conventional solutions instead of just relying on El's powers to save the day.

but actually I just misinterpreted the line.

she doesn't say this during the discussion about how they're gonna stop Vecna. this is specifically in reply to Nancy pointing out that they need to find a way into the UD in order to do that. so Max isn't saying she wishes El would come kill Vecna / rescue her / save the day, she's just saying she wishes El could poke a hole into the UD for them so they can do it. opening a portal is the part the kids really can't do on their own. shooting/stabbing a guy, sure.

once a gate presents itself, Max never wishes for El's help again. she volunteers as bait while the others kill Vecna, which is an entirely conventional solution.

so, this still fits a general trend away from regarding El as a solo/super hero. as always, Max looks to El for the stuff that can only be accomplished with superpowers; what's really changing is that her perception of "things that can be accomplished without superpowers" is expanding. s3 to s4 shows an enormous decrease in her reliance on El for supernatural battle.

ooh but the final step (so far) is my favorite

Max really no longer expects El to solo, even when she shows up with powers and gives explicit instructions to let her solo. ("stay back" -> so, "just stand there and watch"? mm tasty)

Max does listen, initially, but when things go south, she tries to stab Vecna in El's defense (or more realistically, tries to distract him for a second).

the interesting piece of character growth here is not that Max tries to protect El even though El has powers. that's not new.

it's the implications of Max growing past volunteering her protection unasked, all the way to insisting on protecting El even after she said not to.

a very interesting choice from little miss trust-El-who's-saved-the-world-twice.

[Regina George voice:] so you agree? it is possible for El to overestimate her own limits? and her decisions should sometimes be challenged or overridden for her own protection?

like. Max and Mike are the only ones El has ever "stay back"ed. I mean, she's fought for everybody, but they're the only two people she's ever explicitly, individually, fought instead of. are we seeing it?

are we seeing how Mike's feelings in that s3 argument had a lot to do with watching El fight the demogorgon after keeping him back for his own protection - and that the instant Max has the vaguely-equivalent experience of watching El fight Vecna after keeping her back for her own protection, her actions get a bit more Mikey?

where will this go in s5?

unless we get an amnesia plot, s5 Max ought to have a specific brand of El-loss trauma very similar to Mike's, considering she most likely died thinking El had already been killed trying to protect her. (I'm 100% sure she never saw and 90% sure she never heard El in the mind lair with her so it probably looked like she was dead or at very least "gone")

seems very safe to say s5 will require El to endanger herself in order to save Max, and I'm very eager to see how this arc plays out in terms of Max's reaction to that (will we get a scene where Max actually tries to dissuade her?) and whether we'll get any kind of madwheeler handshake type moment about that.

I'm not saying Max and Mike will or should reach equilibrium in the end, but I am enjoying that they've both ended up sliding towards the middle ground since their argument. Mike has learned to better respect El's agency and independence, and now Max has learned that sometimes she too prioritizes El's safety.

so! Max starts out all starry-eyed over El, thinking superpowers are the solution to everything, only to become more and more inclined to help and protect the girl she originally thought of as a superhero. can't tell you how much I love this progression.

.

now let's talk about Mike

unlike Max, Mike never expected El to be invincible or save the day all on her own. it might have a lot to do with first impressions (which looks like she needs taking care of: the rainsoaked nonverbal child lost in the woods, or the MTV punk who just hurled a monster through the window?)

Mike does encourage El to use her powers to find Will (after she volunteers her ability and willingness), but just the void-searching, screwing-with-electronics type stuff. he never encourages her towards telekinetic battle; she does all that unasked. he never expects her to fight for them in any way that seems to seriously endanger her. in fact, he makes effort to protect her at those times.

season 2, he worries for El when she goes off to the lab to close the gate, in contrast to Max figuring she can take care of herself. Mike formulates the plan to draw away the demodogs to make it safer for her.

season 3 is the big argument where Mike's seemingly the only one concerned for El's safety, accusing everyone of being careless with El's powers and treating her like a machine. (intriguing that the actual word "superhero" wasn't invoked in this scene)

although Max makes valid points in this argument, bias from her trust issues causes her to take her points a bit too far. the same thing is going on with Mike. he makes valid points, but has bigtime loss issues that cause him to err in the other direction (arguing El is risking her life "for no reason" when literally the world is at stake).

in fact, throughout the series, his concern for El's safety looks chiefly motivated by his own fear of loss.

"I don't want her to die looking for the flayed"

oh boy does that line tell us a lot. he says "looking for". not "fighting". y'all see the size of the can of worms?

Mike worries about her dying not in combat to save the day, but from searching the void for too long and dying from strain of power overuse. which raises the question:

if Mike is worried about power strain... shouldn't it have been a concern when she had to close the gate last year, which was 1000x more strenuous?

El's battery-drainage has been common knowledge since s1, so either:

s2 Mike didn't realize closing the gate would take lots of power (doesn't make sense; Hopper told them the gate had gotten huge), OR

is there some reason Mike would've become even more El-loss-motivated by 3 than he was in 2, even though he got to "keep" El at the end of 2?

yes! the reason is Will.

in s2, Will was in jeopardy. Mike's response to the El-gate-closing plan wasn't "oh no, El, don't! you might die or get brain damage!" it's "okaycool but let's make sure Will is safe first." when he does fret for El's safety, he specifies that it's the demodogs he's worried about. he makes no mention of power strain.

in s3 the world is at stake again, but suddenly now Mike is all "oh nooo we can't let El strain herself" regarding a comparatively extremely-low-power-intensity task (plus El is older and presumably stronger since s2). the key variable is that this time, Will is fine.

Mike has always cared about El's safety, but back when Will was at stake, he was able to overlook power strain on her as regrettable but necessary. right now, with Will's safety a non-issue, Mike is free to make El's safety his top concern, even to the point of judging all the others for acting basically like he did in s2. priorities.

anyway, back to the greater subject:

none of his behavior in the first few seasons looks much like the way someone would treat a superhero.

if Mike has always understood that El needs help and protection, why does he get all superhero-y about her by season 4?

has he grown increasingly awed by her powers as they've strengthened? is Mike's arc the inverse of Max's, with him regarding El as more of a superhero over time? I don't think that's it.

I think framing this the same way for Mike as for Max is wrong, and misses what's really neat about this contrast.

we have to think about why each of them liken El to a superhero in the first place. it's not for the same reasons.

Mike and Max admire different qualities in their favorite superheroes.

Max superhero name drop: Wonder Woman Max is a girl from a broken home who's felt abandoned, rejected, or abused by every male figure in her life, so we can see the obvious appeal in a strong, independent super-woman. (isn't WW's Lasso of Truth also just what a girl with trust issues would want?)

things like relative invincibility (I know WW isn't literally invincible but like, compared to a regular person), female independence, and ability to defend herself (esp from men) are defining superhero qualities to Max because they're a mix of what she has to be, and what she wishes she could be. she probably imagines that if she were WW, she wouldn't have to worry about anyone or anything that's making her life suck the way it does. WW is MM upside down. coincidence????? (yes)

that's what Max thought El was, early on, hence genuinely thinking El could take care of herself in the sauna.

so does Max just stop thinking of El as a superhero? not necessarily in every sense. right around the time Max is letting go of those preconceptions, another El-WW commonality becomes evident: El helps save the world not with superpowers, but with compassion for Billy.

a mainstay of the Wonder Woman character is the dichotomy of her dominant force aspect and her nurturing humanity: her overwhelming belief in love, empathy, compassion, and having a strong conscience.

I'm not sure whether to think El told anybody how she got through to Billy at the end. but if Max does know, then there are still Wonder Womanly things for her to admire about El's actual character, even if she doesn't think of her as a superhero anymore in the defining sense.

Mike superhero name drop: Superman invincibility is more of a Superman thing, but not one I see evidence that Mike esteems in Supes, wishes for himself, or expects from El.

the qualities I figure Mike admires in Superman are evidenced by the ones that reflect in his own character: things like loyalty, protectiveness, strong sense of justice. nobody thinks his powers aren't cool, but I sense the real allure for Mike is the way Superman uses those powers for good. that's how Mike would use powers if he had any.

I think such qualities are also what he likes about El. I'm giving him a huge benefit of doubt here, because he hasn't made this clear textually. but in the monologue, I see now how he's calling her a superhero for her character, not her actual powers. he admires her for her loyalty to her friends, her commitment to fighting for good, her constant choice of love over hate - all that jazz. stuff that really does apply with or without her powers.

Mike superhero name drop: X-Men when Lucas says El is a "weirdo, not a superhero" Mike doesn't deny her weirdo-ness, he defends it, in other words saying someone can be both.

the X-Men are outcasts due to genetic mutations, so their appeal is obvious among a group of nerds who are bullied and called freaks over a variety of prejudices. through an X-Men lens, Mike can find strength in the discrimination and struggle to fit in which the party faces in real life.

this all applies to El too, who faces definite struggles from not fitting in, getting bullied and called a freak as well.

two indicators that Mike meant it specifically in an X-Men way when he called El a superhero during their fight:

one: this conversation started with her talking about how she is different, doesn't belong, and everyone thinks she's a monster.

two, Mike's word choice. he's already referenced his bullying, but his use of "mouth breather," a s1 throwback word referring to Troy ("I was tripped by this mouth breather Troy") links his thought process back to the X-Men conversation specifically (which took place on the heels of Troy bullying the party).

Mike didn't call her a superhero like "they don't have telekinesis and you do, so you rule and they drool!" he meant "yes you are different from everybody else, and I know that sucks a lot of the time, but the way you use your unique qualities to fight evil is what makes you awesome, like the X-Men!"

Mike superhero name drop: Mister Fantastic

the first person whose superpowers Mike praises isn't El. it's Dustin! he thinks the hyper-flexibility Dustin gets bullied for is cool, kind of like the stretching powers of Mister Fantastic.

I don't know Mister Fantastic so I had to look up what his deal is, and was intrigued to find this:

.. although his cosmic ray powers are primarily stretching abilities, his presence on the Fantastic Four team is defined by his scientific acumen, as he is officially acknowledged as the smartest man in the Marvel Universe.

rather reminiscent of Dustin, the genius child who's always explaining magnets and the plot to everyone else? looks like his "superpower" is not the only reason Mike likens Dustin to Mister Fantastic. just like El's isn't the only reason he likens her to Superman.

anyway, Mike thinking of El as a superhero isn't the problem per se. the problem is him never articulating that he doesn't mean it in the hurtful way

Mike's had two big scenes where he REALLY needed to make this clear to El, and didn't (if I'm even on the right track here).

El doesn't know jack about superheroes except that they have powers, so when Mike calls her that, she has no idea he could be referring to anything other than her powers. you can't tell me she ever read a comic for him or listened to him talk about Superman. I can't remember El ever even politely feigning interest in Mike's interests.

the only time she's ever listened to anyone lore dump about superheroes was Max about Wonder Woman, and if my above reading is accurate, early s3 Max probably focused on superpowers more than character.

the closest we ever came to E listening to Mike talk about a "superhero" he likes is:

it's not like he extolled Yoda's bravery or anything. just telekinesis. so it's little wonder what her takeaway is here. all she has to go by is what he says out loud.

and when Mike reassures her, unprompted, that she'll get her powers back at the end of s3, it just reinforces her notion that telekinesis is really important to him.

when actually, I think Mike just says that because it's important to her. she's lost a part of herself and he wants her to feel whole. (whether El truly wants her powers back for her own sake or because she fears she's not valuable to others without them is another conversation - point here is, Mike saw her try, fail, and look upset about it, so he reassures her.)

ps, I do like how reaching that teddy bear for her serves as a micro illustration of the way he's willing to help reach goals in conventional ways instead of relying on her powers.

but yeah, again, clearly she thinks he means her powers when he calls her a superhero and she answers "not anymore".

which leads to a question I've yelled at the tv more than once: why didn't he just clarify as soon as El said "not anymore"? this whole thing could've been nipped in the bud?

I think he doesn't even realize the miscommunication.

his intent with the superhero "compliment" might just be so obvious to him that he doesn't realize it needs clarification for her.

"but how could he miss the miscommunication? what else than her lost powers could she mean by "not anymore"?" maybe Mike thinks she DOES already understand that he means the superhero thing in terms of admirable character. so, when she says "not anymore", maybe he thinks she's referring not to her lost powers, but to her lost standing in his eyes since hitting Angela?

I've pondered before about how maybe Mike's admiration of El's Supermanly "unwavering moral code" is why he was so upset that it apparently wavered after Rinkomania.

he didn't say anything to clarify after "not anymore" because he is still sorting out those feelings.

I'm not sure Mike realizes even after the "I have gone to become a superhero again" note (which he reads after finding out El is in training to get her powers back).

his reaction to the note isn't "oh no, I didn't mean superhero like that!" but rather seems all about his regret about El leaving him behind as a result of his failure to force an "I love you". (ah, the old fear of loss disguised as romantic love again)

I don't believe he'd fail to apologize/clarify if he realized the way that this hurt El. he can be an ass, he can be stupid, but he does reliably own up to his mistakes and apologize.

I used to think the "with/without your powers" line in the monologue meant he was aware of the miscommunication, and was trying to clarify. but he did such a bad job clarifying that it makes a lot more sense if he actually still hasn't clocked the issue at all. I gotta think he couldn't have been dumb enough to say the superhero thing again unless he still didn't get how it was hurtful in the first place.

he does have El on a pedestal. it's just not because of her powers.

the monologue is largely selfish, and doesn't land well for El, but it's not the worship-of-superpowers Mike is so often accused of. he's locked onto the "I love you" thing, caught up in his own fear of loss, and completely missing the optics for her.

the superhero thing can be cleared up with a single conversation. the true underlying issue, which would still persist, is this "extraordinary vs. ordinary" dynamic in his mind which isn't serving either of them well. he's got low self esteem from viewing himself as some useless loser compared to her; and the last thing she wants is another guy considering her extraordinary, which has been a horrific liability all her life, and she just wants normalcy.

reason #7519 why 🦴.

in conclusion: Mike and Max having different Super-El arcs is the good arc for both of them

as Max sees El needing protection, she comes to realize that powers don't grant the kind of freedom/safety that she daydreamed would go along with being a superhero in real life. so for Max to decreasingly regard El as a superhero is a positive thing.

as Mike sees El continue to loyally fight against ever-greater forces of evil and the social struggles that come with her uniqueness, he continues to admire the same qualities in her that define his favorite superheroes. so for Mike to still/increasingly regard El as a superhero is a... well-intentioned, potentially positive thing. (it can be, if he takes her off the pedestal and explains this in a way she can understand.)

[givehimthemedicine]

when you click on the blog of someone who has you blocked and tumblr says “that isn’t anyone” im always like gaggggg that’s right they’re a nobody

[givehimthemedicine]

hate when I wanna talk to a person but I don’t really have anything to say. but I yearn for the connection. can’t just message someone like, hi I have nothing in particular to say but you’re fun and cool and I would like to have a conversation