#fire and blood meta

[ride-thedragon]

I do love the fact that Nettles is just seemingly both aware and empathetic. Because the men around her are celebrating a victory, while others are mourning Driftmark and what was lost, some become hardened by the personal stakes losts and she's at the centre of it all with no one around her for comfort and she just cries. It's recorded as it being for Jace, but she just fought in a battle, burned the place she grew up, and was met with nothing. Unlike everyone else she can't be knighted and isn't given titles.

My preferred instance is in Maidenpool when the Queen of the Realm says she must die and the men contemplate for all sorts of reasons. Fear of Daemon, fear of Rhaenyra, fear of the destructions of dragons and curses that held men to oaths of centuries and when it comes to Nettles, the person who could cause them so much strife, their defence for her and her life is that she's a child. She's an innocent in all of this no matter what she is accused of, rightfully or not.

That's not a quality we get from members of the small folk often. It's a quality mocked in Sansa and Arya and Daenerys. She's aware of the world and circumstances. She's branded as a thief with a visible scar and whore, the daughter of one even. She's empathetic and innocent. She leaves the narrative and is forever haunted by the politics of the world, but she leaves alive because of who she is inherently.

[addaerontruther]

hello!! i must admit i have not heard much about addaeron ship but i am increasingly curious!! would you mind sharing what it’s all about perhaps i’ll join the club

PLEASE JOIN OUR CLUB!! Sorry this took me so long to answer, but I knew it was going to turn into a dissertation and I was right. HOPE IT'S AT LEAST A GOOD READ!

It starts with Daeron being sent to Oldtown. At this point in the story, he's the only Targaryen, ever, to be sent to ward. He's at the center of the anti-Valyrian club with no one around that looks like him or understands where he comes from. He was a Targaryen prince with a pretty dragon in a city notorious for hating Targaryen's and dragons — which would've been hard enough, without the differing races & customs, considering his sexual identity. He was a baby gay of 12 when he was sent to Westeros's Vatican.

Cue: Addam of Hull, shiphand to his mother, Marilda, constantly working on one voyage or another. The biggest port in Westeros is King's Landing, right near Driftmark, but the second biggest port is Oldtown. My theory, and most other shippers, is that this is where they met. I like to think Daeron and Addam met by chance on the docks, and Daeron decided to take a closer look because he was the first person he'd seen in Oldtown with the silver hair and purple eyes that signaled Valyrian heritage. Once they actually met, and talked, the connection was instantaneous.

I believe Daeron fought it at first, and tried to just keep him as a friend, but the more time they spent together, the harder it became. Addam ultimately made the first move, but from the moment he did, Daeron was all in. They both were, really.

They spent the next few years falling in love and having their moments when they could. Daeron took him flying on Tessarion whenever he was able, and Addam loved both dragon's. When Mouse (Addam's mother's ship if you're unfamiliar) was docked in Oldtown, they were together every single second possible. When they weren't, they sent letters back and forth through other shipwrights moving between them, but that was rare for fear of being found out. Mostly they just spent their time apart wishing they were together.

And then the war started, and Addam was no longer able to visit Oldtown. They were unable to send any messages back and forth, but Daeron had anticipated this day and made the decision long ago that there was only one person in his life worth fighting for, and it was not the Greens. When Ormund set out with his army, Daeron stayed put; thus Ormund begging King's Landing for a dragon despite his squire having one.

When the Red Sowing happened and Corlys came to Addam and Alyn, Addam saw an opportunity to rise up to a level where he, a bastard, would be good enough for a prince — a dragon prince at that — and give himself a chance to earn amnesty for his lover. Having learned High Valyrian commands from his time with Daeron and Tessarion, Addam succeeded where Alyn failed, and claimed Seasmoke.

After the Gullet, Addam and Corlys had a conversation that not even Mushroom reports on; I believe this is when he confessed to his grandfather, now hand of the Queen, that he loved Daeron, and would fight as hard as he could as long as he could, but he needed Daeron to live.

Unfortunately, Daeron did not get that memo. He heard a bastard from Driftmark named Addam claimed the dragon of the late Laenor Velaryon, and that was enough. Addam actively fighting for the enemy on dragonback meant he was now on Aemond (long since Prince Regent at this point) and Vhagar's radar. So, he climbed onto Tessarion's back, and joined the war himself.

His victories were all honorable and/or bloodless for a long time. He was, mostly, used for intimidation and scouting. And then Maelor was ripped apart by the smallfolk after Lady Caswell barred her gates to him, and the rage and stress and pressure bested Daeron, and he sacked the city so hard they renamed it Bitterbridge (previously known as Stonebridge).

Despite this, Corlys still tries to spare Daeron. He asks Rhaenyra to let him live, but she refuses, sends Hugh and Ulf on Vermithor and Silverwing to kill him, and asks Addam to stay in King's Landing to protect her and her sons.

Things don't go as she planned, of course. Hugh and Ulf join Daeron rather than fight him, and Rhaenyra, understandably, unravels. Mysaria convinces her that Daemon betrayed her for love, and then she decides that Addam, too, is a traitor, and should be sharply questioned to prove his innocence... something that is, more often than not, fatal in Westeros. Her having such a strong and immediate change of opinion in him after these betrayals makes a lot more sense if you believe she knew he loved Daeron and feared he had something to do with Ulf/Hugh and/or would betray her alongside them.

Addam was no traitor, even if the love of his life had, as far as he knew, lost his damned mind. Addam had no way to know Daeron hated the betrayers and was actively planning their deaths to rid himself of them despite their extra fire power changing the tides of the war, or that he hadn't actually been involved in the carnage of First Tumbleton, or that he had, in fact, begged the Hightower in charge to make it stop.

So, Addam raised an army and turned it to fight Daeron. The actual killing of his lover was the first thing he did when he got to Tumbleton, because he knew he would never be able to do what he had to do if he saw him. Despite setting the tents on fire, he still turned towards Tessarion the second she "took to the skies, shrieking and spitting flame." I believe he wanted to see if Daeron was on her back, and that was why he kept spinning around her on Seasmoke in the beginning.

Once he saw her saddle was empty, he knew his mission succeeded, and he lost all heart. Tessarion was riderless and had a taste for blood, yet he couldn't get himself to make a fatal attack... or attack at all, really. This was Daeron's dragon. A dragon Daeron had his whole life, the only friend he had in Oldtown when Addam was gone, and a dragon Addam himself was familiar with and loved dearly. He couldn't do it.

Tessarion couldn't do it either. Daeron might be dead, but he was still her only rider ever. She could still feel him, his loves and hates, and she couldn't get herself to hurt Addam or Seasmoke. When Vermithor started getting too close, she left.

But Addam and Seasmoke didn't. They slammed into Vermithor, a dragon twice their size, in what could only be a suicide mission, and Addam proceeded to attempt to eliminate Jaehaerys's creature (derogatory).

He would've failed, and who knows what carnage Vermithor would've inflicted after, if Tessarion hadn't come back. There was no reason for it. Daeron was dead, not forcing her to do this. But Daeron was dead, and Addam was the thing on earth he loved most. She slammed into them, and it became Seasmoke, Addam, and Tessarion against Vermithor.

Ultimately, Addam died in the same field where he killed Daeron, alongside his dragon. Tessarion, the smallest dragon of fighting size in the entire war, one third of Vermithor's size, avenged them. She was not in good shape after and bitch ass Benji Blackwood had her put out of her misery, but she, ultimately, killed herself in an attempt to protect, and then avenge, the man her rider loved.

It's worth noting that Silverwing was also present at this battle, and her and Vermithor had been mated for around 100 years at that point. She, too, was riderless, and she did nothing to help him. She actually said fuck all that and flew away. Tessarion and Seasmoke may have known each other as hatchlings (and I believe they did/they were both Meleys's children), but we know Vermithor and Silverwing did. We know they had a bond. And yet they did nothing to help each other.

Tessarion didn't mate with Seasmoke for no reason. She didn't kill herself trying to help him and Addam for no reason. Daeron and Addam loved each other so much that even in death, Daeron's dragon, who had seen them fall in love and felt it right alongside Daeron, still felt it, and gave her life trying to preserve it.

TLDR; their relationship explains 75,000 plot holes for them both and George couldn't have made it more obvious, in my humble opinion. It's about love, and youth, and war, and two boys that felt alone for much of their lives being together even in death.

[bbygirl-aemond]

Jaehaerys was such a shit dad he fucked up all of his children thank god for Alysanne

anon i am so sorry to ruin this for you, but alysanne really wasn't a good mom or grandmom to specifically the women within her family. she didn't have as much power as viserys, but she managed to use her power to control her female descendants' marriages to straight up ruin most of their lives 😬

she allowed 16yo daella to be married off to a 36yo rodrik arryn (she did give daella two other options, but they were both fully grown men). teenage daella soon fell pregnant and wrote to her mother saying she was scared for her life. she died in childbirth.

she betrothed 15yo viserra to the already "old" and "very stout" lord manderly, who'd already gone through four wives, and who viserra made clear she did not want to marry. she did this even though viserra was young because she disliked that viserra was currying favor with men due to her beauty. this directly pushed viserra to slip her guards and try to enjoy some freedom before being married to a fat old grandpa, which led to the accident that killed her.

maegelle was kind of alright but she was raised to be a silent sister from birth, she never had a choice in it. alysanne decided her entire life's course for her as a baby and she was never allowed to consider any other path.

gael honestly had a very clingy relationship with alysanne because by the time she was born alysanne had already lost several children. i think alysanne using gael as an emotional crutch for losing children directly contributed to gael later killing herself at 19yo after losing a baby.

alyssa was allowed to marry baelon when she was just 15yo. some people say it was nice of alysanne to let alyssa marry who she wanted, but given alysanne's track record i think alyssa's wants didn't factor into this decision as much as baelon's did. and regardless, allowing alyssa to marry and become pregnant so young put her at risk for the childbirth complications that later killed her.

saera i could write an entire essay about. she was constantly ignored by her parents since she was the ninthborn and a girl, and was punished when this neglect made her act out for attention. jaehaerys was willing to let saera marry one of the three men she favored, but alysanne refused. when saera was found to have kissed and possibly slept with these men, alysanne said she should be punished, and stood by while saera was forced to watch from afar as her own father killed one of her male companions. she then forced saera to join the faith, where she was abused for over a year (her head was shaved, she was physically beaten, etc.). i don't blame saera for running away and remaining no contact with alysanne for the rest of alysanne's life.

alysanne even did her grandchildren dirty. she allowed 11yo aemma to be married to viserys, and later allowed viserys to consummate the marriage when aemma was just 13yo even though maesters warned them it would irreparably damage aemma's reproductive system and body. this caused aemma lifelong health issues that later killed her. like this is literally what happened with daella, only much worse, and they absolutely knew better but didn't care enough about poor aemma's safety.

listen, i appreciate the things alysanne accomplished as jaehaerys's advisor. she was definitely the biggest force of good for women that we ever got under the targaryens (save for daenerys). but it's not a coincidence that alysanne's relationships with all of her daughters ended in tragedy when her relationships with her sons did not.

she is complicit in the unhappiness and death that faced her descendants like daella, alyssa, and aemma for allowing them to become pregnant so young. she was slut-shamey towards both viserra and saera for daring to have agency over their sexuality, even more so than jaehaerys which is really saying something. she had a talent for alienating her daughters and making choices for their lives without regard for their happiness. contrast this to her relationships with her sons, whom she allowed the agency she never granted her daughters: she allowed both aemon and baelon to choose their own wives, rather than following precedent that would dictate aemon marry alyssa.

basically, alysanne was definitely a feminist when it came to policy, but her internalized misogyny jumped out HARD when it came to her family's affairs. and her female descendants paid the price for it, with their happiness, with their lives, or both.

[g0lightly]

I just realized… Maegor didn’t claim a dragon until after Aegon I died. Aegon the uncrowned didn’t claim Quicksilver until after Aenys died.

So for a couple of years, Rhaena was the only one of Aegon’s descendants who was a dragonrider. And she was 12-14 years old during that time, around the same age Dany was when she hatched her dragons from eggs that most likely the very same three that Elissa Farman stole from Rhaena. It just feels so right to me that Rhaena and Dany are connected through those eggs. The beginning and end of a lineage of Targaryen queens cheated out of their power.

I just know Maegor was SO jealous of his tween niece in the years between her claiming Dreamfyre and Aegon I dying. I imagine that Aegon I would be very proud to see his eldest grandchild – the one named for Rhaenys – claim a dragon, and that probably drove Maegor crazy.

[mononijikayu]

i think the whole situation of the driftmark incident was far more interesting in the books because it was really so layered and just as much when you read it, full of bias from the writers of the dance and just as much, perspectives by readers themselves when analyzing.

whole reason for aemond being mad about it was the fact that his father made a comment regarding his boldness. mind you he was a ten year old. viserys was making a comment about his ten year old son and if he would be bold enough to claim a dragon when they get to dragonstone.

a lot from the generation viserys belonged to got their dragon when they were a bit older. viserys bonded with balerion when he was sixteen, rhaenys bonded with meleys at thirteen. viserys's own parents got their dragons later in their teens.

so its best to assume that viserys is not making an antagonizing comment, but wondering if aemond would take the initiative so young regarding getting a dragon. example, rhaenyra bonded with syrax at seven. he's wondering if aemond would be the same when they get to dragonstone.

so aemond's ten year old self perceived this as antagonizing because out of his siblings, he was the only one without one. even his nephews hatched dragons from the egg. he wanted something so badly, he did not care what it took to get it. even if it hurt other people.

dragons cannot be stolen, dragons bond with anyone they deem worthy. BUT aemond chose the wrong time and the wrong place. he chose a FUNERAL. now, aemond knew he was a guest in driftmark. he should have been on his best behaviour but instead, he chose to prove his dad 'wrong'.

now its mentioned in this passage of the book that dragons are dangerous. and it was right for aemond to assume that without oversight, without dragon keepers, he would not be allowed near a dragon. not lest without any training either. but three year old joff warns him.

remember, joff was only three year old but was well aware about how dragons behave as he has his own named tyraxes. so he was worried that his uncle would put himself in danger knowing there is no oversight. but all aemond cared about was this opportunity and feared getting caught.

so what does ten year old aemond does to his three year old nephew? he pushes him hard onto the dragon dropplings and young joff began to cry because aemond decided to hurt him for warning him about an ancient war dragon who could have killed him.

joff was just hurt by his uncle rushed off to find his brothers, tell them what happened and asked them for help. they ran off to the pit with wooden swords. these kids were younger but they were furious about what happened to their brother and attacked much older aemond.

but because aemond was much older than them, he fought hard against the younger boys and broke luke's nose with a punch and was able to break the wooden sword from joff and hit jace with it to the point he was on his knees. the two boys were scared and backed off.

now they were frightened, aemond laughed and mocked their parentage. jace, being able to understand it, lunged at aemond again. this was a boy who just finished burying his dad and these rumours might be unpleasant to hear for him. but aemond was stronger and attacked jace HARD.

thats when lucerys decided to unsheath a hidden blade, too scared that his brother would DIE by aemond's hand. the fight continued for a while but the stableboy found them and stopped the fight from continuing.

now what was interesting about the people who wrote these accounts is the fact that they focused heavily on the bastard accusations MORE than the fact that the velaryon boys would have lost a brother had lucerys not acted quickly. so it was odd that rhaenyra herself focuses on a different factor than her kids being safe and sound.

the fact that her sons were being called bastards first before they were near death from what aemond did to them was baffling to me. it would make more sense that rhaenyra would be calling for aemond to be questioned sharply for what he did to her sons, the bastardry rumours was secondary but just as much important—but not as dire as the lives of her young sons.

it is still relevant because these rumours were put to bed many MANY years ago when the eggs of the velaryon boys hatched. it was the greens who continued perpetuating it and being head of the green faction, it would be alicent helping spread these rumours at court.

that is why it makes sense that aemond points to his brother aegon, because both of them would have known that it is their mother that was spreading the rumours and it would be aemond covering up for his mother and how it was her who was the complete source of the rumours.

it is also worth noting that it is alicent who started calling for violence first as well, asking that the eye of lucerys be taken out. her first response to the fact that her son had nearly killed someone and how others took self defense was to have someone maimed.

she does not admit that her son started it, that her son disrespected house velaryon by what he was doing, or that he was also trying to get someone killed - no, instead she asks that someone take a five year old's eye for defending his brother from murder.

it is also interesting that viserys put his foot down here and said that any person who decides to say any more words about bastardry rumours should have their tongue removed. it seems viserys is doing something here, but it doesnt apply internally as the strife only continues.

because aemond did not learn his lesson nor does he apologize, all he says is that it doesn't matter that his eye was cut out. his foolishness, his greed, led him to vhagar, an ancient war dragon. and it was fair to him that his choice had an equal price. which he later recants

because this is part of the reason why aemond attacks lucerys later on at storms end. even when he brags that his dragon was worth it, it is clear that his choice at driftmark affects him, because the control over his body was taken by his choice and he likes power and control.

that being said, i think this could have been adapted for the television show because these layers make it more interesting. just as much human as what they wanna force in the television show, but way more interesting to me. human choices are still part of humanity. its the very layers of shadows humans want to not consider human, because its terrifying. but to deny it and just change it would be to deny humans of the layers they conflict with everyday. its a shame, to have not been shown this in the show.

[thecatsaesthetics]

I’ve also heard the fandom theorize that the father of Gael’s baby was Daemon. They were around the same age.

It’s certainly possible that it was Daemon.

I would say that the Jaehaerys, Baelon, Daemon and even Viserys were all possible fathers.

While I think Jaehaerys is the most likely culprit I think the next likely are Baelon or Daemon.

Baelon is built up in the book to be this amazing would have been king. He’s given a massive pass by the fandom and they tend to get really mad when you imply anything bad about him. But I am skeptical of him, he literally raised Viserys and Daemon. Neither of them turned out to be good men, and were especially cruel to the women in their lives. I also do not buy at all this Alyssa “pick me” Targaryen story we get told in fire and blood. It seems almost directly at odds with all the other stories of women (Alyssa Velaryon, Rhaena Targaryen, Aerea Targaryen, Alysanne Targaryen). If anything seems like “maester propaganda” it’s Alyssa Targaryen. And the fandom just eats it all up. But idk I just don’t buy fire and bloods romantic view of her and Baelon.

Plus somehow Viserra ended up drunk in Baelon’s bed. People use this as proof of Baelon’s virtue but why would Viserra think it was a good idea to do this? The whole story is odd and written in a way to make Baelon seem like this amazing guy. But he literally had his drunk naked teenage sister in his bed and sent her away coldly.

So yeah Baelon could have possibly fathered Gael’s baby. Plus Baelon’s name might be a clue, he is BAELon, which similar to Bael the Bard and Gael was officially said to have been impregnated by a traveling singer.

Now Daemon is another great suspect, especially since he had a thing for Valyrian maidens. He also had just been married to Rhea and was deeply unhappy in that marriage. Also Alysanne arranged the marriage, and ensured Daemon was sent away from court. This all happened around the same time as Gael’s pregnancy and disappearance.

While it fits Daemon’s MO, and would certainly make sense, I think it’s likely not what Martin intended. He LOVES Daemon, we have the whole God Eyes battle documented despite nobody living from the battle. If Martin had wanted to Daemon to be the father of Gael’s baby I think we would have had the whole thing written as such. He’s just too much of a Daemon fanboy to not have written another story for him.

So while I am okay with that headcanon, I think the likely suspects are Jaehaerys and Baelon. Both would have had access to Gael, neither would have faced consequences for assaulting her. I lean more towards Jaehaerys because it really does fit with his determination to sexually control his female family members pattern but Baelon also could have felt this way about his female family members.

[alicentsgf]

book alicent and rhaenyra showing up to dinner in each others colours really was gay as shit actually like... did they coordinate it? how? if they supposedly never sought out each others company nor saw eye to eye on anything? who suggested it?? who approached the other to discuss it?? were they ironing out the logistics of it together? if it was for viserys sake then did they speak of him? of alicents marriage? did they allow for any emotional catharsis at all?? if not, how do you convince your most bitter opponent to put up a front WITH you? and if they didnt coordinate thats even MORE gay they just show up to dinner and catch each other across the room and rhaenyras in green and alicents in black?? whose to say they didnt truly want peace? maybe it wasnt a facade. what an 'oh?' moment if they just Happened to have the same exact idea to begin to rebuild the bridge and the INTIMACY of that ??? there is not a single way i could think of this going that doesnt include some kind of ineradicable epiphany

[sarcasticsweetlara]

Had Daemon and Laena's son survived

No one ever thinks about how things would have been if Daemon and Laena's son had survived, and it's interesting because many things would be completely different had this boy survived -because yes people, in the book their son was born but he was deformed and died within an hour-.

Let's say Daemon and Laena call him Aellisar -they wanted to create a new name- before Laena getting her fever and dying (as it actually happened in the book).

Daemon would have an heir, and as in the book Baela and Rhaena were four when this happened, and in the show their age difference would not be as big as many other pairs, he could easily marry his firstborn daughter to his firstborn son as is the tradition of the Valyrians. I think Daemon would still marry Rhaenyra as a way of getting close to the Iron Throne and protecting his children from the Greens, and of course, because he loves her, but in this case he would need to be more convinced, the actual reassurance from Rhaenyra that she nor her allies will ever try to harm Aellisar as he unlike his cousins would be the only boy with both Targaryen and Velaryon blood.

Rhaenys and Corlys would be overjoyed of finally having "another" more like the only grandson of their own, and would love to teach him about the Velaryon heritage of his mother, Corlys would probably think about making Aellisar his actual heir but he would still have problems with the fact Aellisar carries the name Targaryen while Luke is a Velaryon, though only in name because his strong looks obviously do not come from Corlys nor Rhaenys.

Now going back to Daemon and Rhaenyra, the time lap in which Aegon the Younger and Viserys II are small infants would make even more sense, it's true we could say that in the show they took the time to make Baela, Rhaena, Jace, Luke and Joff feel comfortable around each other, but if Aellisar is still alive, Daemon and Rhaenyra would also need to raise and be there for him in those first years, especially since his mother is not there. As Baela would marry Jace, and Rhaena to Lucerys, they would need to find a suitable bride for Aellisar, possibly an heiress since he would be the firstborn son of Daemon and they would surely want to give him a wife who would be perfect for him and also to keep him from wanting to claim Driftmark.

And the greens would be terrified, here it is a boy with pure valyrian blood with claims both to Driftmark and the Iron Throne who is in the team with the most dragons, sooner rather than later Aellisar will have a dragon and will be a competent fighter.

[ilikefelines]

And I quote:

'So what does it mean that Laenor and Corlys agree to pass Rhaenyra’s children off as trueborn? It means that their bastardy cannot be proven at the moment insofar as the legal father, Rhaenyra’s husband, is playing along and covering for Rhaenyra, and Viserys is backing them up by giving this his “legal” stamp of approval. But again, our view that it’s no one else’s business but Laenor and Rhaenyra’s and that Viserys “legalized” their status is very modern.

Jaehaeyrs and Alysanne were not considered married in the eyes of the Westerosi until they’d had a bedding ceremony, that is, the consummation of their marriage was witnessed. Royal marriages and the children that come from them are a public matter because the succession affects everyone in the realm. Laenor, Corlys, and Viserys can protect those children in the short term, but Laenor and Corlys and Viserys won’t live forever, and they could withdraw their support for those children and renounce them as bastards at any time.

Harwin could admit to fathering them, Rhaenyra and Harwin could get caught in the act, or someone else close to them might confess. Sure right now the black faction are all one big happy family, but 20 years down the line when bastard Jace takes the throne over trueborn Aegon III? There are multiple people in the family who could confess to knowledge of the bastardy, including Aegon III himself. The bastardy is too obvious and there are too many legitimate heirs of both house Targaryen and house Velaryon getting pushed aside in favor of bastard born children for it to be an issue that simply disappears because Rhaenyra and Laenor say so.

So “legal bastardy” is a pretty meaningless concept when it comes to royal succession because it’s not a matter that’s going to be settled by some neutral third party in a court of law. What matters in the long run is not whether or not Laenor claimed the kids, what matters is whether or not the situation is questionable enough that people with the power to challenge it might challenge it.'

There are a lot of Rhaenyra stans who act wilfully obtuse when it comes to this. There's no point applying our modern views to Westeros when nobody who matters in that world knows or cares.

There's this weird thing going on Reddit right now where people are claiming that legally, Rhaenyra children are not bastards. And I was wondering if you agree or disagree. I think that people are just making up their own canon lore at this point.

Hi anon,

I think what gets kind of muddled in this discussion is what "legally" means in the context. Generally speaking, children born within wedlock are considered legitimate until proven otherwise. Now in the medieval world, it's not like you were issued a birth certificate that you could whip out and say see, it says right here who the father is! There were no DNA tests, it was all a matter of word, and by and large a woman's virtue was her word, and it was what kept her and her children protected within the framework of medieval marriage. But the reason why bastardy matters in this context is also important. It's not like Rhaenyra is trying to collect child support here, nor is she a common merchant's wife whose husband has decided just to roll with it. She's the heir to the throne and the parentage of her children is a matter of inheritance and dynastic succession, so it's not a situation where a legal loophole is particularly helpful as a gotcha. There is not at this point in history a comprehensive codified law that clearly defines what these terms mean and defines the rights and obligations of parents and children legitimate and illegitimate, mostly you have combinations of precedent, tradition, oath, and a healthy dose of might makes right.

(I saw another reply to this question in which the responded basically goes, "free yourself from the shackles of this construct! Marriage isn't real it's an oppressive institution and the idea of bastardy is made up, so let it go," and while it's true that marriage, legitimacy, etc. are all social constructs and not absolute states of being, they started off as having a functional purpose within a certain social framework. And this is a basic problem a lot of people have with George's world, it's not that we have to have the views of a 12th century French peasant, or that everything has to be historically accurate, but George chose the medieval world as a setting for a reason, and it's not just an aesthetic one. Characters in even a quasi-historical setting have to act within the constraints of that setting. We have to understand that people don't know what they don't know. The medieval world doesn't have any framework for the introduction of feminist ideals. Westeros hasn't even had a Christine de Pizan yet. You couldn't walk up to a medieval peasant woman and say "marriage is a tool of patriarchal oppression and bastardy is a social construct," they'd look at you like you had two heads. And so we have to acknowledge that you can't simply start dismantling existing social structures if the framework doesn't exist to replace them with something better that offers more protections for a broader group of people, and at this point it definitely doesn't. Making an exception for one very privileged woman does not mean progress for all women, instead it often means destabilization of the flawed system that does exist, and even more violence against those less powerful in order to enforce the exceptional status).

So from a medieval point of view, marriage was pretty much a non-negotiable for a woman. And women weren't simply getting married because they were pressured into it by their families or because their fathers were opportunistic assholes, they got married because unmarried women had no legal status or standing. In most places they could not sign contracts or own land. A woman could join the church or get married (or become a prostitute, but it's not like sex workers had freedoms or protections either). Divorce wasn't a thing, and annulment was hard to get and usually available only as a tool for men to set aside their wives. So, for all intents and purposes, once you were married, that was generally it, you were stuck for life (the upside is that widows did get a lot more freedom, so marrying an older guy and waiting it out was not a bad option sometimes, all things considered). But what marriage did provide was assurance that you and your children would be protected and provided for. Marriage was a practical agreement, involving dowries, inheritances, and alliances sealed in blood. And this is one of the reasons why bastards could not inherit. Inheritance for once's children was one of the few perks of a marriage for a woman (this is, incidentally, why Alicent is so pressed about her children being effectively disinherited. There is NO reason for her, as an eligible maiden of good standing, to marry a man who will not provide for her sons, king or not). And of course, a man's bastards are obvious and are disqualified from inheriting (setting aside legitimization because it is not nearly the easy out that people think it is). You can't really pass them off as legitimate because your wife clearly knows which children she gave birth to, whereas a man might be told he is the father of a child when that child's father is in fact someone else.

In a dynastic marriage, all of this becomes even more important. Marriages were made as alliances and to strengthen the ties between kingdoms or houses. A child seals the marriage agreement by binding two bloodlines and creating kinship bonds that will last beyond the current generation. Those kinship bonds can ensure peace between kingdoms at war, trade agreements, and military aid. Passing a bastard off as trueborn breaks that agreement; it violates the very principle by which the agreement was made. And in this context, it doesn't actually matter if the father claims the children as his, because in a dynastic marriage inheritance is not just a personal matter, it's a matter of the state. The truth matters to a great many people, more than just the immediate family. A lie doesn't become the truth simply because the liar isn't caught, and there's no statute of limitations or court ruling that will ever put the matter to rest for good. Passing off a bastard as trueborn destabilizes the succession and breaks the dynastic bonds that the marriage was meant to establish. When the bastard heir in question attempts to take the throne, it won't be a smooth transition.

So what does it mean that Laenor and Corlys agree to pass Rhaenyra's children off as trueborn? It means that their bastardy cannot be proven at the moment insofar as the legal father, Rhaenyra's husband, is playing along and covering for Rhaenyra, and Viserys is backing them up by giving this his "legal" stamp of approval. But again, our view that it's no one else's business but Laenor and Rhaenyra's and that Viserys "legalized" their status is very modern. Jaehaeyrs and Alysanne were not considered married in the eyes of the Westerosi until they'd had a bedding ceremony, that is, the consummation of their marriage was witnessed. Royal marriages and the children that come from them are a public matter because the succession affects everyone in the realm. Laenor, Corlys, and Viserys can protect those children in the short term, but Laenor and Corlys and Viserys won't live forever, and they could withdraw their support for those children and renounce them as bastards at any time. Harwin could admit to fathering them, Rhaenyra and Harwin could get caught in the act, or someone else close to them might confess. Sure right now the black faction are all one big happy family, but 20 years down the line when bastard Jace takes the throne over trueborn Aegon III? There are multiple people in the family who could confess to knowledge of the bastardy, including Aegon III himself. The bastardy is too obvious and there are too many legitimate heirs of both house Targaryen and house Velaryon getting pushed aside in favor of bastard born children for it to be an issue that simply disappears because Rhaenyra and Laenor say so.

So "legal bastardy" is a pretty meaningless concept when it comes to royal succession because it's not a matter that's going to be settled by some neutral third party in a court of law. What matters in the long run is not whether or not Laenor claimed the kids, what matters is whether or not the situation is questionable enough that people with the power to challenge it might challenge it. And we see even within the actual narrative of the Dance that this is indeed the case. There is already a situation brewing with the other branches of the Velaryon family who are rightfully pretty pissed to see their ancestral seat pass to someone with no blood ties to the family (and as an aside, people will say Vaemond was self-serving, and of course he was, but that doesn't make him wrong, and maybe Baela or Rhaena should have inherited instead, but neither they nor their father were pressing their claims because they were backing up the bastard claimants, so was Vaemond supposed to do that for them?). And yes the king and Rhaenyra can cry treason and they can kill Vaemond and cut out tongues, but using force to silence people for telling the objective truth is by definition tyranny, and that's exactly the sort of situation that would get the nobility nervous. Because if Rhaenyra has to silence people already and she's not even queen yet, what will Jace have to do when he takes the throne? That's the real problem, not the "legal" status of Jace and his brothers, but the practical ramifications of hiding the truth.

[franzkafkagf]

do NOT think about jaehaera targaryen that shit will kill you.

do NOT think about how this little girl saw her twin being murdered, saw her mother fall deeper and deeper into depression. how this little girl saw her father rage and drink and then burn and fall from the sky.

do NOT think about how she didn’t see him for so long while he was recovering. how she, maelor and aegon ran from king’s landing, how scary that must’ve been.

do NOT think about how scared and alone jaehaera must‘ve felt like the entire war. not knowing who in her family lived and who didn’t maybe it would‘ve been better not to know.

do NOT think about how jaehaera and aegon met up again in king’s landing. how she probably didn’t recognize him. how she learned her brother and mother and uncles were dead.

do NOT think about how she must‘ve felt like after aegon was poisoned. how her grandmother asked her to slit another child‘s throat. do not think about her marriage. do not think about how she fell and what came after.

[ride-thedragon]

NETTLES AND RACE.

It is a shorter analysis but a needed one. The way that Nettles race plays into her interpretation throughout the narrative is interesting.

Obviously, she is a mystery throughout the narrative. We don't know much about her, and what little we do know is often contradictory within the written narrative. But her race plays a part in that.

When we look at who's writing the story, we are being told what occurred through very specific lenses. Septon Eustace, Maester Gyldayn, and Mushroom are all men, from different backgrounds, but men in this world none the less, white men (andals) at that.

So we see their bias when it comes to Rhaenyra no longer being beautiful because she kept the weight after having children.

Or with their depictions of Alicent and Helaena or the twins with their one isn't fit to be heir she won't listen, yadda, yadda, yadda....

Bias occurs.

With Nettles in the narrative, however, her being a woman, poor and black, all play a role in the intersection of her identity.

There is nothing about her when it comes to her description that suggests she's dirty, filthy, or promiscuous, and the people who describe her as such weren't around her in the time period they were describing.

'She slept with shepherds for sheep' while having the markings of a thief in their world.

She is filthy, yet the only time we get an in world description of her cleaning habits, she's bathing with a prince and getting things (hair brush, mirror) to maintain her appearance.

Like, I hate to be the one to say it, but let's think about these conclusions logically.

There would be an intersectional bias with Nettles in the narrative. She's looked down on because Septon Eustace decides to play guessing games with her backstory and then uses his own unconfirmed deduction to say what could've happened in Maidenpool.

Even in Maidenpool, they call her the brown child, Daemon cares for.

I don't think this is something that exists in a bubble, and I think the narrators of fire and blood are given a clear bias so before we jump to conclusions about Nettles, remember that the way she is written isn't from her perspective or with her input. It's by men who didn't know her and never recount an in person interaction with her. Not even a quote she might have said.

Also, not to hype up George, but the man clearly loves his history, so I beg anyone who thinks I'm reaching to look up how black women (any woc could work) are written by white scholars and then how mistresses are written about in history and let the thought marinate.

[addaerontruther]

Hi! Do you think you could expand more on your thoughts regarding Aemond probably being jealous of Daeron in the show? Or maybe some thoughts on how they might portray their relationship. If you have more to say of course, it's just that I saw your post about it and I'd love to read more of it

I don't think jealous is really the right word! I don't think Aemond is in touch with reality enough to be jealous of Daeron, to be quite honest. I do think he was irritated at the mention of Daeron accompanying the Hightower host, though, and it's based on this quote from the book:

Prince Aemond had no taste for such delays, however. He had no need of his brothers or their dragons, he declared; Aegon was too badly hurt, Daeron too young. Aye, Caraxes was a fearsome beast, savage and cunning and battle-tested…but Vhagar was older, fiercer, and twice as large. Septon Eustace tells us that the Kinslayer was determined that this should be his victory; he had no wish to share the glory with his brothers, nor any other man.

He's arrogant and glory hungry in both iterations, and he doesn't want to have to say his brother's helped him win. He fully believes he and Vhagar can win the throne all by themselves, and the thought of another brother getting in his way after he just disposed of Aegon irritated him.

I do think there's the potential for him to be jealous of Daeron if he hears the way other people talk about him. Stalwart, kind, clever, adept with a sword and a lute, the subject of many a maiden fantasy. Aemond is chronically bitchless and no one wants to look him in his one eye so I imagine there's certainly room for him to be bothered by the way everyone seems to love his little brother... especially considering Daeron avoided all the carnage that comes with growing up in King's Landing (in the show). Who wouldn't be jealous of that?

[ifandomus]

In addition, they were outnumbered and already struggling due to low supplies (exacerbated by team black’s forces using the scorched earth policy by burning down their forests and villages), disease, and team black using guerilla warfare tactics (raids and ambushes) against them.

I will also never be able to understand how killing a man who's trying to negotiate for the survival of his men under a peace banner (which included him being willing to risk his life by offering a 1 vs. 3 trial by combat) and then slaughtering hundreds of severely struggling men while they were trying to surrender just to spite their commander is somehow satisfying for people. Sure, it definitely wasn't the worst war crime committed during the Dance, but the only one who comes out looking honorable in that situation is Criston, while his killers just seem like petty cowards. (Also, Garibald and Pate taking Criston’s decapitated head to Tumbleton doesn't exactly reflect well on their intelligence, considering that they are about to face a kid with a dragon who has won every battle he has fought in and sacked and burned down a town because some of the inhabitants killed another one of the people he cared about)

I also think it kind of decreases the validity of the “he was an envoy” part of why Aemond killing Luke was wrong (although it only invalidates that part specifically).

Hello! What are your thoughts on how Criston Cole died in the Butcher's Ball? Do you think Garibald Grey, Dustin, and Pate Longleaf's tactics were treacherous and cowardly? I do not understand why Cole's death is seen as satisfying when he was trying to surrender and save his men in a battle they knew they could not win. And Garibald even acknowledged that it was not a fair battle and it was a massacre.

Well, Sahtine, there's really no other way to put this. The white flag has been used even in Roman times, it's been used in the medieval period, it's been used across continents. It's been an integral part of international law ever since we can ascertain that something resembling this concept exists. It's in the Hague Conventions of 1899 and 1907, it's in Hugo Grotius' 1625 De jure belli ac pacis. People across space and time know what it means and have somehow agreed to respect it so often that the practice became quasi-universal. Killing someone that comes under a peace banner is breaking the laws of war, plain and simple. Many military manuals pertaining to countries all around the world consider firing intentionally upon a parlementaire carrying a flag of truce to be a literal war crime: https://ihl-databases.icrc.org/fr/customary-ihl/v2/rule67

They could have just refused Criston's offer of trial by combat, sent him back and met his army on the battlefield. But that was the whole point, wasn't it, to deny him an "honourable" death. Had Criston's army surrendered first and were butchered regardless, it still would have been considered a war crime. It still should be, because the men laid down their shields and fled.

With Ser Criston dead upon the ground, the men who had followed him from Harrenhal lost heart. They broke and fled, casting aside their shields as they ran. Their foes came after, cutting them down by the hundreds. Afterward Ser Garibald was heard to say, “Today was butchery, not battle.”

The United Nations defines "no quarter given" as a war crime. Killing members of the armed forces who have laid down their arms is also considered a war crime: https://www.un.org/en/genocideprevention/war-crimes.shtml. Sure, the UN is a contemporary organization, but these principles are not new, they've just been more recently enshrined on paper.

So, yes. IDK who thinks of it as "satisfying". It's really there in the text to highlight how Rhaenyra's side committed atrocities, too.

[bbygirl-aemond]

can you pls talk about rhaenys bc her conversation with alicent in ep9 INFURIATES me

Oop get ready for an unpopular opinion. I actually love that whole conversation and everything it illuminates about both Alicent and Rhaenys. It's such an effective and devastating commentary on the different reactions women have to the patriarchy. And I don't think it has to be read as Rhaenys antagonizing or looking down upon Alicent, in which case she definitely does come across as a hypocrite, given that she never once even attempts to disobey her husband no matter how strongly she disagrees with him.

But is that the only way to read Rhaenys's words here? No. And I'm not convinced she's trying to accuse Alicent of wrongdoing here, especially in light of the conversation Rhaenys had with Rhaenyra in episode 2. In that conversation, Rhaenyra very much seems to be reveling in the fact that she is an exception while Rhaenys is not. Rhaenys fails to rise to the bait, because she understands what Rhaenyra does not: There is no exception to misogyny, not even if you are the rightful heir to the throne. So it seems odd for Rhaenys to see right through Rhaenyra there, and yet to turn around and do the exact same thing to Alicent.

So I think that in episode 9 Rhaenys is commiserating with Alicent. Consider the actual words she says. Never once does she insult Alicent, or imply that she is evil for the things she's had to do. She simply says, "you toil still in service to men. Your father, your husband, your son." This doesn't have to be a judgment, since Rhaenys has spent her entire life doing the exact same thing. Remember, in this scene Rhaenys is trying to convince Alicent to free her. It's not unthinkable that she's trying to build common ground and incite Alicent's sympathy in order to get herself released. It's not unthinkable that she says this knowing the exact same thing applies to her, too, that she says this precisely because of it.

And consider the line "have you never imagined yourself on the Iron Throne" and how incredibly telling it is. Rhaenys isn't necessarily marveling at the fact that Alicent works within the limits of the patriarchy, because for all the above reasons Rhaenys herself very much does the same thing; she's marveling at the fact that Alicent is so brainwashed she doesn't even allow herself to privately dream of freedom. That she "desire[s] not to be free, but to make a window within the wall of [her] prison."

Because Rhaenys cannot stop imagining it, imagining herself on the Iron Throne. The indignity and cruelty and injustice of being denied her birthright haunts her every waking moment. Now, this anger does not give her the power to challenge what has been done to her. She conforms, and she submits, just like Alicent. But it makes her fucking furious, while Alicent will not even allow herself that. Rhaenys cannot be content with just a window, and she knows that deep down Alicent cannot be, either, but that doesn't mean Rhaenys thinks she's any less trapped within that prison. Rhaenys wants more than a window, and yet she knows that both her and Alicent will never be able to have anything more.

Rhaenys isn't marveling in how brainwashed Alicent is. She's sympathizing with it. Yes, she's frustrated and angry, but she displays enough awareness throughout the series to indicate that she'd understand Alicent isn't the target of her ire. She's venting, y'all, to the only other person who might understand her unique torment as a high-born woman whose power is still not enough to save her.

I know fandom loves to pit women against each other, especially in this case given the whole team divide within the HotD fandom. But in my mind, this is simply an excruciatingly honest and vulnerable conversation between two women who have spent their entire lives being trampled by the patriarchy, allowing it to happen because they have no other choice. They are the same in every way, and they are the same in their helplessness in the face of institutional misogyny. Alicent and Rhaenys are the same, save for how they privately feel about their circumstances: Whether they feel resignation, or rage.

And these negative feelings are levied not towards each other, because they both understand (unlike baby Rhaenyra in episode 2) that other women are not and have never been the enemy. Instead, these feelings are directed towards the men, towards the patriarchy, towards the system that has actually done this to them. Rhaenys is furious in this scene, but I think it's so much more interesting if you recognize that she is only ever furious at what the patriarchy has done to her, and that the only things she feels towards Alicent are camaraderie and pity.

HotD is a fascinating exploration of all of the different ways in which women try to respond or cope with the patriarchy. Alicent, a noble but relatively unpowerful girl, spends her entire life submitting to the more powerful men around her, telling herself she's alright with how things are. Rhaenys, one of the most powerful women alive, the rightful heir to the Throne and a dragonrider to boot, spends her entire life submitting to her more powerful, male family members, raging internally the whole way. Rhaenyra, arguably the most powerful woman alive, the rightful heir to the Throne and a dragonrider with the backing of all of the men in her family, fights and refuses to accept that things have to be this way. And yet all of them still suffer.

All of them still lose.

GRRM shows that no matter how much a woman conforms, and no matter how much a woman rebels, and no matter how much power a woman has within the system, the system will always win. No single person will ever best a centuries-instilled institution of oppression. This is also the reason why Daenerys succeeds, where these equally intelligent and talented women fail: Because she dismantles the system of power entirely. Because she breaks the wheel.

[g0lightly]

*me tuning into HOTD back in 2023 bc of that negroni spagliatto vid*: "god imagine caring enough about this show to have a favorite dragon" *me in my notes unironically in 2024*: see above

based dreamfyre's only bodycount is from trying to escape the dragonpit (the only one to break free from her chains thats my bbygirl 🙂‍↕️) which 1) was self-defense 2) in freeing herself to break the dragonpit dome dreamfyre also effectively sacrificed herself to do more for the in-universe equivalent of nuclear disarmament than... anyone else?!

it's simply impossible for me not to stan dreamfyre and her dragonriders! rhaena rode her around the realm to bond with her girlfriends and to search for her missing daughter! probably the only time helaena ever felt remotely free in her life was on dreamfyre! the fact that the dragon that arguably embodies some of the most important themes of the series (other than balerion though i feel this also enhances her as a foil to him) is basically absent from the show is a damned tragedy in my opinion.

theory under the cut, TW discussion of a character's suicide.

i have a theory that helaena's suicide -- described as mysterious by the maesters -- may have had more to it. it's easy and frankly, reasonable to understand it in the text as a tragic and all too common example of the way women's mental health has been historically neglected. however, as we're seeing in the HOTD adaptation, halaena is a dragon dreamer. GRRM has even said that show helaena is "a richer and more fascinating character than the one I created in FIRE & BLOOD," specifically citing her gift of prophecy as a major component of that compliment. as he explains in the post, helaena in the books is has few personality traits and her close bond with dreamfyre is one of them.

what if helaena lived a second life in dreamfyre after her death? even in the book where she is not intended to be a dragon dreamer, her motivation to do this could be to regain the freedom she enjoyed while riding dreamfyre or to simply use her power to end the violence. or perhaps it just happened because their bond was so strong. in the show, i wonder if helaena will do this because she sees in a dragon dream that it is the only way to end the most brutal ravages of the war? especially given the way that helaena spoke of the way lowborn women must lose their children more often than highborn women, i imagine that the grief of the mothers around helaena is weighing on her in addition to her own grief.

what if helaena intentionally sacrificed herself and dreamfyre to prevent more death? in the text, i think it's significant that dreamfyre was noted to be blinded in one eye before she broke the dome. this mirrors the loss of aemond targaryen's eye, arguably the event that set the war into motion. thematically, dreamfyre's sacrifice in death seems to represent the end of the cycle started by this eye for an eye mentality that led to so much death and destruction.

if you'd like some extra tin foil hat with your theory, i also wonder if dreamfyre actually didn't get crushed and managed to escape but the maesters said she died with the other dragons when the dome fell because it would look really bad if she didn't. she's one of many dragons whose remains are unconfirmed however she is the only dragon that broke free from her chains in the dragonpit.

even if dreamfyre did physically die, did she psychically die? she previously lived at harrenhal with rhaena targaryen; could dreamfyre be the dragon that alys rivers was reported to hold at harrenhal? rhaena appears to have been the first to be called a "witch queen" at harrenhal; could this have been her plan for dreamfyre all along, a plan dreamfyre understood due to the depth of their bond? i love helaena and rhaena the fuck DOWN on their own so obviously this idea of them having a psychic suffering witch queen bond through the ages via dreamfyre makes me rhaegar levels of emo tbh

[mononijikayu]

the worst take ive heard about rhaenyra being haughty is that they think she's a bad character for it. that she's rude for it or that she's horrible because of it.

mam,,,,,rhaenyra is based of empress matilda. the woman refused to be addresed as anything else but empress, even after remarriage. THE LITERAL WOMAN WHO BASICALLY FOUNDED THE PLANTAGANET DYNASTY.

her own children ALL used the last name fritzempress - son of the empress, rather than their father because their mother instilled in them that she was superior in rank than their father's who was a count. her son henry ii REFUSED to be called anything but fritzempress.

rhaenyra was meant to be haughty especially in adulthood. after being abused by alicent for so long, she moves to dragonstone and realizes her damn worth and self importance. that there are people who believe in her existance as heir, that people would fight for her claim and sign themselves to supporting it. of course she'll get confident of her identity and self importance, being the heir to the throne.

like, yeah. she would grow bold and haughty because she is overturning the thought of a male dominated society by being the FIRST FEMALE heir that was named that was not only princess in her own right to dragonstone but also the very fact that this is maintained all through her father's reign from the moment she was literally made heir - even with the fact that she had male siblings soon after. like of course she'll have so much pride for that.