#even if he didn't give a shit about sansa

[thewindsofwolves]

Jon Snow & Sansa Stark Book Parallels & Mentions 41/∞ : Jon refuses to steal Sansa’s birthright 

"How can I lose men I do not have? I had hoped to bestow Winterfell on a northman, you may recall. A son of Eddard Stark. He threw my offer in my face." Stannis Baratheon with a grievance was like a mastiff with a bone; he gnawed it down to splinters. "By right Winterfell should go to my sister Sansa." "Lady Lannister, you mean? Are you so eager to see the Imp perched on your father's seat? I promise you, that will not happen whilst I live, Lord Snow."  A Dance With Dragons, Jon I

[grandwretch]

if winds of winter comes out and Sansa and Jon's friendship was a TV show hallucination idk what I'll do. set myself on fire? drown in a lake?

[tessarionbestgirl]

You said once Hotd lacks heart. What you mean by that?

In Game of Thrones, the main thread, the heart of it, was the Starks relationship. You liking it or not. And that doesn't necessarily make them the main characters either. But that family love for each other is what compelled a lot of people to watch it. And was the most pure thing about the show, so you connected with it, and feel their pain. And that what brought the normies to the table.

In Hotd this is supposedly to be Alicent and Rhaenyra. They even copy the blueprint of it by establishing in episode 1 their bond and from there things go south . The thing is. This relationship is not justified enough. And what I mean by that is, when you look for what they are trying to tell with this dinamic like Sarah said in recent interview, Alicent could never forget Rhaenyra or some shit like that. Because she was her best friend in their childhood. I was thinking like, why tho? Really? I doubt 🧐

They failed in my opinion to stablish this dinamic to be this powerful thread that connects the show. They don't have a cosmic connection that would challenge the very blood connections they have and question their Ideologies.

That is what they want you to believe that this friendship of years ago was so powerful that make their hearts constantly in conflict. But nothing that was show to us on those yearly episodes make me believe was that a strong connection.

Like a silly moment of Rhaenyra tearing the book for Alicent, It was supposed to be this friendship powerful moment that years later make Rhaenyra think on the possibility of throwing her claim away? Do you know how insanely ridiculous that sounds?

Keep in constant, what this moment is supposedly to be emulating. Jon giving Arya needles. That moment was so powerful for her because, of some many aspects. But one of them is because the present is deeply connected with her wants and needs and show how much Jon knows her and loves and accept her for what she is.

"Sansa can keep her sewing needles, I've got a needle of my own."

And then of course, is given by Jon before he goes to the wall. Is farewell gift, one of the few, really happy moments she had before everyone go south. And so makes sense this very weapon becomes the manifestation of these characters she lost.

"Needle was Robb and Bran and Rickon, her mother and her father, even Sansa. Needle was Winterfell's grey walls, and the laughter of its people. Needle was the summer snows, Old Nan's stories, the heart tree with its red leaves and scary face, the warm earthy smell of the glass gardens, the sound of the north wind rattling the shutters of her room. Needle was Jon Snow's smile.”

What take a page out of a book has the same deep? What exactly represents? The freedom of acting like spoiled girls that can tear books apart and laugh about it with no consequence? Because if so, is not rooted on the relationship in it self. But freedom they had.

Every other relationship here is deeply fuck up so it can't be the heart of it. And they even take from the most pure relationship and repurposed to them to valid them. Like exemple they taking Maelor out, taking away Heleana's "Sophie's Choice" and giving to Alicent and Rhaenyra. Making Alicent ultimately choosing sacrifice her son to Rhaenyra. Something she didn't for her son when Otto himself said it was a sacrifice they need to do to save Aegon in episode 9 of the first season. And that is a wormhole of inconstancy by it self that I will not talk about here.

So that all reasons I mean by the show have no heart. Also this is enough reason to make believe the show end will suck. Because at end they will not even have that thread they stablish the show around it. So the likelihood this will fall apart at end will be big.

[writergirl2011]

Regarding Hyle Hunt

There's been a little discourse regarding the role one Ser Hyle Hunt will play in Lady Brienne of Tarth's storyline going forward. Some people seem to think that he is her perfect match because they hate the idea that Brienne deserves to have a romance with the man she wants--aka one Ser Jaime Lannister--because that messes with the narrative they want to push, whatever that narrative may be.

Some people think that Ser Hyle Hunt is a more interesting and more remarkable man than he truly is, when nothing he's said or done to this point has shown him to be anything of the sort. Personally, I'm not impressed with a man who set up a bet with his buddies over a young noblewoman's virginity--which was essentially the kiss of death to said young woman, who didn't have much going for her on the marriage mart in the first place. (Don't give me the "men will be men" explanation. That makes you no better than Randyll Tarly.) And his proposal of marriage boils down to: "Hey, baby, you've got an island and a lot of money, I've got a functional dick that's already proven to be fertile. I can close my eyes and blow out the candle. Let's do it." How romantic.

There has been absolutely no indication that Brienne will ever love this man, or even care the slightest for him. Threatening to turn someone into a eunuch isn't playful banter, especially not when said man once bet on her virginity and the last time she confronted someone(s) in that bet, she beat the living shit out of them. She hasn't forgotten, and she really hasn't forgiven. And when it comes to Hyle, she never really will, because in her eyes, what he did was the worst of all of them. He came the closest to winning by doing the one thing none of the others did--he made her feel included, like she might be earning a little bit of respect in that camp. Then she found out it was all a lie.

"But she hated Jaime at first!" Yeah, but that was before Jaime: told a lie about Tarth's wealth to save her from rape; shouted "sapphires" and risked a beating to save her from rape again; risked his own life to save hers by jumping unarmed into a bear pit (with only one hand to boot), and revealed the truth about why he killed Aerys, thus revealing that rather than it being a callous act, he'd saved an entire city of innocents--a noble act. THEN he put his trust in her to find Sansa, gifting her with a horse, armor, and a priceless sword. He gave her the respect Hyle only pretended to give her, expecting nothing in return.

What has Hyle done on their road trip? When Brienne kills the three former Bloody Mummers, I'm curious: how long was Hyle there? At least long enough to see her and Pod burying Nimble Dick, but the way he's described sitting there casually makes me think he'd been there longer. Watching. Sitting back doing nothing while she might've been killed. And we don't know what his true motives are in following her. If she finds Sansa, is he going to help her get Sansa to safety--or is he going to betray her and try to turn Sansa in to the Crown for the reward?

If you want any further proof that she doesn't care about Hyle, think about who she tried to bargain for when Lady Stoneheart was about to hang them all. Not herself, and certainly not Hyle. Podrick, the boy. And when they were hanging, as she was dying. the only person she had eyes for was Pod.

And who did she presumably agree to kill Jaime for? Podrick.

Yeah. She's really going to come around on Hyle.

[horizon-verizon]

What’s Elia’s legacy, lmao ? GRRM belittled her himself by giving her four sentences in 5 books and zero characterization. Barristan is also a bitter incel because he called Elia a “kitchen drab” while comparing her unfavorably to Ashara Dayne ??

A)

(A Dance of Dragons -- "The Kingbreaker")

Barristan is not really "bitter"; he is tired & anxious for Dany to return in the wake of Hidzhar's attempts to undermine her, and that inevitably went to his past with the Targaryens' fall. To reiterate, because he was already thinking about how he didn't want to fail Dany, his thoughts go to his years as a Kingsguard and tasked to protect the now dead Targaryen family.

This is how we end up in his regrets over Rhaegar, which, just like in real life with real people, ors into a semi-related "tangent" about his crush on Ashara Dayne. It's supposed to be very candid flow of his thoughts between the past and the present. And nearly every adult character in this story are haunted by what happened before said war that up-ended everything, whether they were more or less really sound, questionable, or pretty morally bankrupt, there is a gamut. Jaime, Cersei, Catelyn, Ned, Barristan, Jon Con, etc. Esp those who were the closest to those who caused or were triggers for said war. All reflect on how they did not or did perform their duties or how limited they felt they could do when they were performing their duties.

This series is about people, who are products of their world, and this world is pretty sexist (understatment). Ned Stark has thoughts similar to Barristan; Catelyn has words about how thick or wide-hipped a certain girl should be before she marries as she inspects her like some sort of broodmare with a sort of coldness because she herself was anxious about getting her brother, father, uncle, etc. to help her and Robb in the war and wanted things to fall through for them; Jon Snow has frequent resentments against his sister Sansa; she does about him and his bastardry pre-Ned's death (she shouldn't be exactly blamed but it is till an indication how this world runs on classism, sexism, xenophobia, etc. and is built into many character's perspectives). We really need to remember that these PoV chapters are almost stream-of-consciousness, which means we're getting their unfiltered immediate thoughts, reactions and longer thought processes to problem solve. All of which, if you can imagine, are not ever guaranteed or CAN BE morally pristine, esp under stress.

I also ask that you think about even the "nicest" dude around you or that you trust and dare yourself to actually believe they also did not think some sexist or otherwise pretty unfair shit? Or even some woman around you whose actively and verbally non sexist...we, too live in a pretty sexist society, we're not going to have great reflexive thoughts or realize that something we think is sexist until we think about it more.

I'm not saying, again, this is wasn't unfair of Barristan...but what did you expect? Barristan, unlike many other people we could have PoVs of and we know are twisted, demonic people (Craster, Ramsey) or those we do have PoV chapters of and are not really that moral (Cersei, jon Con, Jaime, Tyrion) are not at Barristan's "level" or morality...the man is at least trying to make up for his greater failures and is not trying to oppress Dany in the way Jon Con definitely would. And why? Because unlike Jon Con, Barristan hasn't totally lost himself to his own guilt or developed what another anon describes as extreme "tunnel vision". And thus he is far more useful for Dany, which is a win. Like her bloodriders, who themselves can't have shunted every single prejudice they have developed from childhood once they joined her, but they are still her bosom and most trusted people for very good reason.

Finally, it's unfortunately part of the deal with Westerosi to compare the beauty of women and put it to a hierarchy.

Even outside of Barristan's crush on Ashara, though Elia was recognized as pretty and many of us modern readers would just say she is beautiful to not entertain this idea of a hierarchy of beauty...that very hierarchy of beauty that I'm describing some modern readers are actively trying to delegitimize when they refuse to score a woman's beauty is unchecked in this society/universe! And their diction or vocab is going to reflect the classism, sexism that exists-- "kitchen drab" (female servant of the kitchens who is not as attractive bc she works manually and is thus not going to be able to maintain her appearance like a noble woman can) is used metaphorically for that purpose as much as we might say "look at what the cat dragged in".

Women like Catelyn Stark, Cersei Lannister, Ashara Dayne and men like Jaime Lannister, Rhaegar are at a league of their own/the "top". Ellaria Sand is described implicitly as "sexy" by Sansa, but she is still as "beautiful" as Arianne Martell. Thus "the most beautiful" both bc of pleasing features and those features matching the beauty standards Westerosi Andals have. Elia was, to them, low-tiered and "fell behind" Ashara, Cersei, etc. because she didn't immediately present those ideal physical features. Elia was also constantly told to us as not being as remarkable as other women by other people.

So it's really not just Barristan who is doing stuff like this; he's not uniquely sexist and he's not actually dangerous or evil as you are trying to make him to be. We must remember that he was talking about appearance.

B)

"legacy": the long-lasting impact of particular events, actions, etc. that took place in the past, or of a person’s life

In general and not even talking abt Elia herself, "legacies" don't have to be positive; it's certainly what you want and the point of having one is for a society to remember you positively and have a positive meaning. But it's really about leaving an impactful enough impression of your own importance on the rest of society in some way. You can have a legacy (what people remember you for and why/how you matter) while not having done much, like many women in Westerosi history who are remembered for being good passive queens, tragic queens like Helaena, for being so "patient" and charitable, etc.

The ideal "legacy" for women within the world we're talking about is usually not so much about what she did or what sort of person she is unless it deviates from the rigid definition of "good woman". The you got cultural legacies of Rhaenyra's that was itself botched/inherited from the sexist lens many used to assess this war and her actions.

The kind of "legacy", anon, that you are talking about is the impression more made on the reader than the one made in the world and in this society. If Rhaegar had lived, become King, and ascended the throne for Elia to become Queen, perhaps Elia would have made some some of impact the way consorts typically do...perhaps not as she was severely ill after her pregnancies. Also, Queen Rhaella--Aerys' own sister wife and Rhaegar's mother--doesn't really have a "legacy" that isn't dependent on Daenerys or Rhaegar? More women before her have not really had a strong political legacy so much as a dramatic one if they were silent, more or less. And that is kinda the point: women were/are shunted in the pursuit of all these political stuff, whether purposefully or as a consequence of their extant role as subsidary heir-givers for men. Elia got the shortest end of the stick, yes, but that doesn't negate every other bad end for women in this world and it coming from the same place. (And no she nor the Dornish are "PoCs".)

So women's "legacy" is, as I said, very pre-determined and rigid.

The primacy of Elia's (Watsonianly) legacy is how she died, her kids, and being consort to a prince; the other parts, like with Lyanna with Ned, have to be brought up by a brother or some other living and active character because she herself is dead. Both her and Lyanna can only be remembered and characterized through the memories/thoughts and quick words of their brothers, and only through them do we get personality.

Is it unfair she got then end she got, yes, that's the entire point; she is also a secondary character who is serving her purpose as a 2ndary character whose gender is going to inform her narrative role.

I do agree GRRM could have not made her so ill OR leave her ill and still somehow be more active as to "take her out of the action" so to speak, to accrue more influence in court and through that we get to hear/witness what sort of person she was a little so we could have that love vs duty, Rhaegar-Lyanna storyline that is meant to support Dany, Jon, and basically the entire pathos AND logos of this entire series. At the same time, even if she did, we'd still have a dead Elia who got cheated on & likely still have her slighted at a tourney, so...

And as I said in a post about Rhaegar and Lyanna:

not that he used Lyanna for it, but that these two things AS WELL AS HIS KIDS, likely came at odds in terms of "what can I do to make these two things happen without compromising the other"...perhaps, after a life of performing "duty" towards his family, dynasty, the "world", Lyanna is the "love" that NARRATIVELY becomes his "weakness" in a long career of putting "duty" first [embodied by the marriage to Elia]

Is that fair to Rhaegar, Lyanna, or Elia...fuck no, that's pretty much a point. Elia is in a place where her body is used against her in a a marriage arranged for her where she'd have to be faced w/the possibility of a husband who doesn't love her in the way she could have and she "sacrificed" her health entirely to produce heirs for "the prince"/the dynasty/her own Martell family's interests. Rhaegar and Lyanna have a love that causes strife instead of staying "good", an "impossible" one because of how marriage (a political institution made for resources) works against them. And especially women--Lyanna would have been in Elia's place except worse, as Robert once more would have never respected her and even abuse her. Rhaegar's gender doesn't produce as as dire consequences being a man and esp being a good warrior, but he also found a grand purpose within those duties as a prince, grew up with a man with a lot of power and insanity behind him who abused his mother yet still obligated to him as his king...again not "comparable"...but...compelling.

The Rhaegar-Lyanna thing is not really meant to be purely moral and not in the way some people have convinced themselves it is (Elia was a PoC wife Rhaegar hated and chose a white woman to love instead; he abandoned his kids for her; he's to blame for Elia's death bc he didn't make sure she and the kids were at a safe location; Rhaegar kidnapped and r*ped Lyanna).

This relationship was grand and a (Watsonianly) true and born from pure affection and authenticity on both their parts...it was ALSO still was a trigger for the war that ended a dynasty, foreshadowed by at least 3 other broken engagements in Westerosi history (Duncan, Shaera, and Jaehaerys II). Elia was "stuck" in a way that is different but immediately more obvious than how Rhaegar was and much more similar to how Lyanna was. Like how the saying in the books goes, love is the "death" of duty; and "duty" can be a thing of love like how I feel an obligation towards a sibling, but duty can also limit one towards prioritizing an undeserving family member...then is it love? (Elia was not undeserving, but we don't know enough what happened or what their relationship was like AND the point is that this world is...morally questionable.)

That also doesn't mean you have to like it or GRRM's choices. It also doesn't mean that there isn't something to the Rhaegar-Lyanna relationship that is worth noting and liking, either, or to make as if it isn't a reflection and a different take/aspect of a core thing in the book that does illustrate it simultaneously.

[rise-my-angel]

Jon would never willingly become an “incest boy”, that one is true, and what is funny is that out of all his relatives the last one to attract his incestuous attention would be sansa, the girl he didn’t care about even when he heard she was forcefully married to an uncle of a dude who murdered their dad lol…

Literally like, it's the least plausible one. Jon cares about Sansa, she's his little sister, of course he loves her but they aren't close. She grew up looking down on him for being a bastard, a trait she learned from her mother. She thinks he's ugly (Arya and Jon look very alike and Sansa repeadetly says she thinks Arya is ugly therefore she thinks Jon would be too), they hardly ever think of one another because they had little of a relationship by the time the main series started.

Jon cares about her well being, but as far as romance goes it is beyond comprehension why people think it's so plausible. Like, I don't think Jonerys is plausible either, but I'll say at least that seems more likely then Jonsa.

Jonsa is so heavily based on the show, because people just liked that Jon was physically affectionate to Sansa in season 6, but like, that's not exclusive to Sansa. Jon is JUST as physically affectionate with Arya and Bran. People just want them together because Jon is attractive arm candy to their Queen in the North Sansa, not out of chemistry because it doesn't exist.

In the show, all they do is fucking argue. All Sansa does is demean him and talk down to him and keep secrets from him and betray his trust, they ain't getting together, it ain't happening.

I don't remember in the books if Jon even knows about the marriage or what his reaction is, so I'll give you that, but in the show it's even funnier, cus your right. Jon does not care. He has no reaction. Tyrion even tries to placate what he thinks would be Jons issues by saying it was a sham marriage and that they never consummated it, and Jon extremely blunt and dryly just responds "I didn't ask." Which is one of Jons funniest moments that season, the flat way he says that.

Like as much as my legitimate criticisms of Jonsa goes, it is the funniest one of the ships cus like, the two of them literally have the least amount of any kind of platonic relationship between all of the Starks that exists as it is. They literally have the least connection to one another, it's so blatantly fantasy thinking that would be canon.

I will never get over a quote that was going around, that acted as proof of romantic feelings or intentions between Jon and Sansa, and it turns out its not a book quote. It was a quote from a Jonsa fanfic that the Jonsas were passing off as a real quote.

That's how far they gotta stretch that shit.

[cellsshapedlikestars]

"Ryan finally had a girlfriend that actually thought about him!!“ yes absolutely! I didn’t *hate* Marissa but I really disliked the Marissa/Ryan ship, they weren’t right together. Never even thought about it but it makes so much sense that you come from a The OC background.

The way you write modern Jon reminds me so much of Ryan (LOVE IT). So interesting that you tried to rework one of your existing fics into a Jonsa fic. I would honestly love a fic with some OC vibes. The only The OC Jonsa fic I’ve read was one where Sansa was put into Marissa‘s role and it did NOT fit. Thinking about it, Sandy and Kirsten Cohen definitely give off Ned and Cat vibes!

Also Happy Birthday!

I used to hate Marissa a lot, but I was younger then (it didn't help that the other people in my fandom vitriolically hated her lol). I can look back now and realize that Marissa was, unfortunately, the writer's favorite toy to create new drama, at the expense of her character.

And unlike almost every other character, she just wasn't fun for me (I will say, Seth sometimes bordered on too much for me, but usually he was fine). Like did Julie do terrible things? Sure, but oh boy when she showed up in a scene, I knew it would be a good time. I would rather watch her than Marissa any day of the week. Marissa would just suck the energy out of everything for me. But maybe that's a product of my old fandom, and I'd feel differently watching it now. I haven't rewatched in ages, tbh.

And I will say, I liked Marissa at the end of season 3! Because they were just wrapping up her character so she wasn't starting shit and she was actually just fun like she should've been the entire time. And they acknowledge that she & Ryan were toxic together, and better off as long distance friends. So when the time comes for her death, I'm actually sad!

I tried not to be too mean to Marissa in my fics... towards the end. Though I did write a one shot about her murdering Ryan lmaoooo. That's strictly on my livejournal... I think it's still there?

As for a Jonsa OC fic.... I've had one half written basically since I started writing fic again.

Ryan - Jon Trey - Aegon Sandy - Ned Kirsten - Cat Seth - Arya?

But there's where it sort of fails, because who is Sansa? Is SHE Seth? Where does she come in, unless I make her not related to the Cohen/Stark family. Or do I get rid of Kirsten/Cat, make her married to Jimmy/some other dude, and have Sansa as her daughter with Arya as Ned's?

Omg this got so long, but I'll include what I have written below the cut, which is literally just the opening scene, so don't get too excited lol.

The OC AU

They approach the car like it's prey, ducked down, creeping.

“I'm your big brother. If I don't teach you this, who will?" With that, Egg smashes out the window, the sound loud and echoing in the quiet alley. He opens the door and gets in, but Jon hesitates, looks over his shoulder towards the main road.

"Quit being a little bitch. Get in!"

And so Jon does, because he always does what Egg says. Just as he's about to get in the passenger side, it happens – a cop car rolls by on the main street, and Jon's heart lurches in his chest, but it passes.

And then it backs up.

“Come on!” Egg shouts, laughing and reckless. “Let's go, Jon!”

Jon slides into the passenger side and slams the door shut behind him, heart racing a mile a minute as Egg hotwires the car and gets it started, as the police cruiser turns down the alley.

And then they're off.

Down the street and out into the open, Egg pushing the throttle as hard as it can go, even on the small streets of Wintertown. Jon sits with one hand gripping the door handle, the other braced out in front of him on the dash.

“You should see your face, man,” Egg laughs, mouth wide, teeth glinting in the streetlights – sharp and dangerous. That same, reckless laughter Jon remembers from their father.

Sirens wail behind them and Jon knows this is it. This is where he finally dies, this is where everything catches up with him. At an intersection, Egg runs a red light, has to swerve to avoid an oncoming car.

“No, no, no, no,” Jon chants, shutting his eyes and bracing for impact. He doesn't know what they hit, just that he's thrown forward, the airbag slamming into his chest, the sound of crunching metal and squealing tires and sirens.

He feels groggy and weak as his eyes open, bright lights flashing and making him wince.

"Hands up! Get them up!" someone shouts. The police. "Hands on the dash where I can see them!"

For just a moment, Jon thinks about running. Pushing open the door, leaving Egg, and going as fast as his legs will take him. But his chest aches and his lungs burn and his head is spinning and so instead, he puts his hands up.

[sayruq]

i dont think key fivers were afraid of sansa of course fandom toxicity ramped up as the season went on and post show but its probably because the show whitewashed a lot of characters and their conflict like tyrion both because they were favourite character by the showrunners and the show wanted generic conflict instead of complexity and many characters and arcs got cut because of it, this turned fandom into thinking key 5 didnt mean "characters who affect the story good or bad depending on point of view" but turned into "the key 5 are heroes that'll save the day against the others and have a happy ending" by season 5/6

sansa was mostly ignored or victim blamed even by book fans before the show exept by a few so i dont know what they really thought her story was gonna be by the end but the show made it worse by not giving her enough nuance even in the early seasons and while diverging her arc pretty badly, it had her in a position of leadership, this pushed the idea in BROAD strokes that might be explained better in the books that her character did matter so i guess it did ruffle some feathers of theorists that didnt think about her all these years and a lot of there theories were proven wrong in the end

I'm telling you it's to exclude Sansa. The whole point is to 'prove' that she's not a main character and won't be involved in the final war(s) of the books. I've seen it with my own eyes.

GRRM himself said he was mostly pulling shit out of his ass with that outline and most people moved on from it once the novelty wore off but a contingent of antis saw it as all the evidence they need that Sansa won't

help free Winterfell from the Boltons

play a part in the fight against the Others

play a part in the war between Aegon vs Daenerys

have a romance with Jon (I don't ship Jonsa but you can't deny that a big part of Key Fiver is the idea that Sansa isn't important enough for a romance with Jon unlike his aunt and other sister

rule the North as Lady of Winterfell or Queen

And I have to disagree, while many people ignored all the signs pointing to Sansa becoming a big player in the game of thrones, they didn't ignore Sansa as a character at all.

I also get where you're coming from but the idea that Jon, Dany and Tyrion (with help from Bran and maaaaaaaaybe Arya - the idea that she'd become some sort of Batman in the Riverlands with her army of wolves was more popular than the idea she'd play a role in fighting the Others which is why D&D chose her specifically to deliver the killing blow) was there before we got the outline. Key Fivers just absorbed it into their DIY lore.

[alleyskywalker]

🐅💖💛 for Jeyne Westerling, please

Oooh thank you!

🐅 - Characterization: character habits, personality, etc.

I see/headcanon Jeyne as this mixture of sweet, romantic, idealistic and compassionate on one hand, but also passionate, headstrong, stubborn and maybe a bit selfish in certain respects on the other. I don't really see her as ambitious or interested in politics though. In my headcanon(s), that's more her sister.

💖 - Romantic relationships or ships. (This could be as simple as sharing a rareship you enjoy, or an unusual interpretation of a popular/canon ship!)

Hmm I don't know that I have a lot of Jeyne ships. I've enjoyed shipping her with Sansa! I do kinda ship her with Robb, tbh? But the thing is I definitely don't see this as either 1) a completely one-sided relationship or 2) a perfect non-problematic relationship as tends to be the two most common interpretations I've seen.

Without writing a whole ass meta here (lol) there's too components of my opinion here. First, while I think it's reasonable to assume that duty and wanting to do the right thing played a role in Robb's decision to marry Jeyne, I reject the notion that that's all it was. I see no reason to take his talk to duty at face value but not his super sappy "I conquered her castle and she conquered my heart." Like please, that's a cringe, goo-ey teenage infatuation if I've ever seen one. (Also, I'm sorry, but they fuck like rabbits on the daily. I know Robb needs an heir but this does not sound like someone who's not enjoying sex with his wife.) So yea, I think he was into her a lot, and wanting to keep her with him and also his feelings making him less willing to hurt her played a large part in in decision making as well as honor and duty considerations.

That said, Robb was kinda shitting to her and I think there's ample possible reason for this, everything from his initial infatuation fading somewhat to having to return to the war and all its stresses full time have put a damper on his ability/desire for romance if not his libido. (And it's not like Robb isn't ever kinda shitty toward other people he ostensibly loves/cares about...) I do think though, that had Robb survived the war, they could have ended up having a pretty happy marriage.

Second, this fandom really needs to recognize more how sketchy the circumstances around their first sexual encounter were. I'm not saying Jeyne didn't consent to the sex, but...it amazes me that people who easily recognize the coercive elements in the Criston/Rhaenyra scene don't see them here. The power imbalance is significant. Robb has conquered her home and his men are literally occupying it. Jeyne and her family are completely at his mercy. She doesn't really know him that well so it's hard for her to tell how he will/won't react to things (such as a sexual rejection). Robb absolutely has a temper, and if she ever witnessed it that would not have been comforting. Yes, she's attracted to him/infatuated or in love with him, but that's not really there or here when it comes to consent at any specific given moment. (Criston was attracted to Rhaenyra,, Cersei in love with Jaime - that didn't change the issues with those sex scenes.) Yes, Robb had recently been ill, but this is not a Petyr and Lysa situation frankly. Robb gives no indication of being confused about what had been happening or what they were doing. I'm also pretty sure no one was giving him war reports while he was high on milk of the poppy or whatever.

And again, I'm not saying she didn't say yes or want to... But also...that's kind of the point to. We don't know exactly what happened. Or really even any not extremely vague version. I'm sure Robb believes for every moment that she was into it. But this is less to say "it was definitely dubcon" and more like...I think this situation was more psychologically complicated than fandom has any desire to explore. (Weird in a fandom that looooves to talk about these issues. But then Robb's a Stark so what do I expect? lol) Personally, I enjoy some ambiguity there, a bit of uncertainty, a bit of confusion on Jeyne's part afterwards maybe. Because otherwise...how reckless, how selfish of her. And I don't want to be of that opinion of her.

(Literally, do not come at me with the "they drugged/seduced him" misogynistic conspiracy theories. I will sacrifice you to the Drowned God.)

💛 - Familial relationships.

I def have thoughts/feelings about Jeyne and her siblings! I think before her marriage/the Incident with Robb she was pretty close with all of them. Rollam is probably her most "surface" relationship - he's a lot younger and a boy, so they're not as close as she is with her sister and older brother, but it's also relatively straightforward and uncomplicated. That doesn't really change.

Eleyna is a more complex relationship - she's also a few years younger but them being sisters they have some more common interests/goals/environments/etc. Probably more of a complexity than their difference in age is their difference in personality. I hc Jeyne taking more after their father and Eleyna taking more after their mother. Eleyna is more practical and cynical, particularly for her age, less prone to romanticism and more prone to following the rules, or at least appearing to. But still being young this is also a bit sublimated with the naivete of childhood and such. She's far more ambitious than Jeyne. This all gets especially fraught after Jeyne gets involved with Robb. Eleyna does not take this well. She instinctively (and in part actually) understands the danger Jeyne's marriage puts their family in and the problems it will cause of Eleyna personally down the line, especially if Robb doesn't win. She also understands that if Jeyne's reputation is ruined her own could be impacted/questioned as well, especially when her prospects were already lower than Jeyne's, being the younger daughter. So she is extremely angry at Jeyne for what she considers to be her thoughtlessness and selfishness. So their relationship suffers not insignificantly.

Raynald I headcanon as like Jeyne's best friend. They're extremely close and while he's not sure how to feel about this whole allegiance switching thing generally and knows it's dangerous, he'll do pretty much anything for his sister's happiness.

[the-king-andthe-lionheart]

This fanon notion that Ned was a bad father to Sansa is absolutely ridiculous and not remotely based in canon. Like Sansa stans are just mad that Ned didn’t mistreat Arya because Sansa stans hate Arya and want everyone to treat Arya like shit

Exactly @daenerysthevampireslayerr

They can't stand that Arya is one of the Key Five and is important to the story. They also can't stand that she's in GRRM's top 3 favorite characters. And because Sansa isn't among these groupings, they are ridiculously jealous and believe that Arya deserves to be punished. It's also why whenever a character shows love or loyalty towards Arya, treats her like a human being, or a plot is about her, or she does something good and heroic or political, they erase her. Jon deserts the NW and dies for Arya? Erased. LSH and the BWB+Gendry are glaringly obviously looking for Arya? Erased. Brienne's quest about finding Sansa leads her on a journey following Arya's path and learning more about Arya's fate after her escape from KL? Erased. The Northerner's rising up in Ned's and Arya's names? Erased. Arya successfully pulling off a coup in Harrenhal that wins the castle for Robb? Erased. Arya hearing Ned's voice (not Bran's voice) through the weirwood at Harrenhal that gives her the strength to try to escape? Erased. Arya saving 4 people from a burning barn, including a toddler she later cares for? Erased. Arya being the second most powerful skinchanger after Bran? Erased. Arya learning all the same skills as Varys? Erased.

The fandom just loves erasing Arya's importance, her themes, her actual arc, her intelligence, the political skills she is learning, and the context in which she does things, just so they can prop other characters like Sansa up. But it's so pervasive that they've convinced so many other fans of this too, and it didn't help that we have misogynistic dudebros and incels in this fandom who overly criticize Arya for things that they applaud in the male characters. Like seriously, Arya has done nothing worse than what Ned has done, but which one in the fandom is deemed "good" and "honorable"? Ned.

But what's funny about these people is how they clearly can't read. The reason why Ned kept talking to Arya, is because he was blaming her for the fights with Sansa, and thought that Arya was the problem when it came to Septa Mordane. He was admonishing her. The reason why he got Arya water dancing lessons was to keep her busy, and he obviously knew it would be a good outlet that would teach Arya to focus her anger, and gain more discipline and patience. He never intended on the lessons to go far. He thought it was a phase she would grow out of before conforming into a southern lady. The reason why he said Syrio could come to Winterfell with them, but that Sansa couldn't say good-bye to Joffrey, is because Syrio wasn't a freaking Lannister, and the point of them leaving secretly had to do with the Lannister's being dangerous. But apparently that's favoritism and it means he didn't love Sansa? Even if Arya was his favorite, he clearly loved Sansa enough to think Sansa was well-behaved enough that she would never dare be the instigator towards Arya.

They want Arya severely punished in this story, but it's not even just Ned they want to punish her. Lately I've even been seeing disturbing things about them wanting Gendry to rape her. Imagine wanting a 12 year old to be raped or sexually assaulted, even a fictional one. It's disgusting and it's unhinged. They want Arya to suffer unimaginable torments but as soon as someone mentions an ending for Sansa that doesn't include Sansa being queen and having a Disney fairy tale ending they shriek and cry and send death threats. And I'm not even talking about people theorizing that Sansa will go dark or die by the end. I'm talking about people getting ulcers from the mere suggestion of Sansa ending the series in an arranged marriage and that she might have to seek love outside of her marriage considering GRRM loves tragic romances. But no, Arya and Dany are the special punching bags in this fandom, who deserve horrible things done to them, for... *checks notes*: "Doing the exact same things the male characters are doing and being praised for".

[asongofstarkandtargaryen]

Not to demonize Cat but the woman literally said Arya was a trial and she wanted her to be like Sansa; she admired Edmure’s efforts to look after his people but at the same time she saw them as useless mouths to feed; she wanted 14 year old Jon out of his own home in Winterfell. How is that supposed to be similar to him? Same with Sansa being Ned 2.0 just because she’s in the Vale. She doesn’t recall any of his lessons like his other kids do. He is a man who lived and died for his family and was overall well liked by his people. He carried Lyanna’s secret to his grave. Sansa snitched on her family (bitterly regretting it) because she was in love with the little psycho who tried to murder her sister and she barely had any contact with the smallfolk. The math doesn’t add up. Just reads like a Jon/sa fetich of NedCat 2.0, same people who insist Jon longs for Cat’s love and approval since he has oedipus complex or whatever. But one can not erase canon and none of the women Jon felt attracted to had anything to do with Cat. They need milk of the copey.

Yes, I agree with you.

Comparing Catelyn saying that Arya was "a trial" while the latter was missing to Jon gifting Arya the Needle, it's clear that those two characters view Arya's behavior differently.

Arya herself was doubting that her mother would want her ( which mind you wasn't true, Catelyn wanted both her daughters back. But it says a lot about the impression she had given to her child through her behavior). Meanwhile, she was certain that Jon would want her even if no one else would. Jon's acceptance is wholeheartedly, he doesn't criticize Arya's parts their society considers unwomanly ( and in fact, all the girls he finds attractive share those traits of hers).

Here is the thoughts of Catelyn when her brother gives shelter to innocent people in Riverlands war zone:

Only my sweet brother would crowd all these useless mouths into a castle that might soon be under siege.

ACOK - Catelyn I

Jon Snow in ADWD is doing exactly what Catelyn is criticizing her brother for, he gives shelter to "useless mouths" ( aka all the Wildings that can't contribute to the fight against the Others).

Jon's worldview, beliefs and behavior is so different from Catelyn's that it's laughable to claim that "he's Catelyn with Ned/Lyanna's characteristics". Do they have a couple of things/ traits in common? Surely, but so does almost any pair of pov characters. That doesn't mean all of them are copies of each other.

Moving to Sansa, I disagree with the fandom's notion that she's Ned 2.0. As you said, she doesn't recall his lessons like his other children do. That's not to condemn her because Ned taught mainly the boys and Catelyn was responsible for the girls ' education ( Arya is the exception here because we know that she liked to follow her father and see him performing his duties as the Castle's Lord).

And then there is the scene where Sansa tells Cersei her father's plan. Again, I'm not gonna codemn a 11 years old for making a silly decision but considering that a major theme in Ned's story is that he never revealed his sister's secret, preferring to soil his honor in order to protect it I fail to see the similarities between father and daughter in terms of personal values and priorities.

As I often say, Sansa was way closer to her mother than she ever was to her father and she shares some core beliefs with her ( plus her narrative comparison to Cat is important due to the Littlefinger obsession with both of them). So if the fans want to link Sansa to any of her parents, Catelyn the correct choice imo.

On a side note, I'm sure that you probably meant no harm but I don't like the word "psycho" to describe awful characters. Joffrey was a little shit but that was because he was spoiled by his mother and neglected by his father. He didn't have any psychosis. Mental illnesses affect real people and that's why I don't like seeing them being used as slurs.

[asoiaf-essays-collector]

Baratheons to blame

You know what? When talking about the shit happened to Westeros people usually blame Ned Stark for his insane moral code and political incompetence, Lannisters for being, well, Lannisters, Robb Stark for his naivety, sometimes Sansa Stark for trusting Cersei.

And I've yet to see even one essay dedicated to Baratheons. One of them was butchering the whole country for a decade, others chose to be literal children effectively giving Westeros to Lannisters.

So let's talk about this.

Robert Baratheon.

Well, say it wasn't his mistake to become a king - Baratheons are related to Targaryens, he had people supporting him and loving him, he was known amongst little folks. Even without political intelligence he was a legit option and perhaps the only one that wouldn't raise any question or create an opposition immediately.

Let's say even marrying Cersei wasn't a political mistake at that time - new dynasty needed gold and supplies, winter was coming soon, and Robert needed all the Great Houses support he could get.

But after that? It's inexcusable.

Many words were written I won't repeat them. My biggest issues are - 6 millions debt, not listening to advisers or at least Jon Arryn and later Ned and giving Storm's End to Renly. How the hell the latter happened and what were the reasons - I still don't understand the mechanism.

But Robert didn't care, didn't listen, he created the state of Westeros that it is now, it's a simple constant and starting point of the series, let's move on.

Renly and Stannis Baratheon.

It was the simple equation. The easiest one.

Tywin Lannister had his 12 000 people in Harrenhal plus an abstract army that was still being gathering in Lannisport - so let's say there were 16 000 people total. 20 000 max.

King's Landing was unprotected af.

Robb was also against Lannisters with his 25 000 people or something around this (and he was also theoretically okay with Stannis as a king).

Stannis had his ships and war strategy skills (and dark magic, but no one knew yet).

Renly had more than 90 000 people.

The simplest solution should be to combine Baratheons, annihilate Lannisters and King's Landing and then discuss the terms of sovereignity or allegiances between themselves. They had no bad blood between them and Robb, just childish grudges amongst Renly and Stannis.

Maybe - even if they didn't agree they could just attack Lannisters from different frontlines and then fight amongst themselves - stupid but still reasonable.

You know - "let's deal with the biggest issue first" style.

But no.

Renly decided to become a king literally out of nowhere - he said so himself. Stannis instead of being smart about it held onto stupid grudges against literally everyone. Oh, his brother didn't love him enough, oh, Ned Stark saved his life just because Robert told him so, oh, Renly took his Storm's End, even the Seven did him wrong! Just put on some big boy pants, man!

I know that that's the whole point of their conflict - it's in Catelyn's chapters, but it just frustrates me af.

Robert was just a bad ruler - that happens, I'm sure there were lots of unfit rulers in Westerosi history.

Ned made a mistake of trusting people he shouldn't had - but he was also very new to all of this shit. Man tried to do something but then failed - that happens sometimes.

Robb basically also made a mistake of underestimating enemy's vile and Frey's disloyalty. Stupid, yes, but he also tried to do something while being inexperienced teenage boy.

Lannisters? Vile, atrocious and horrible people - politically smart and looking out for their family's best interests. Understandable.

Blaming a child - just ridiculous.

But these two? Both adults, having either military or state experience? Just doing fucking nothing because of stubbornness and absolutely childish grudges against each other? While knowing that this war was destroying the whole country? That people are being killed? That Lannisters are getting stronger, not weaker?

That's not even stupid, that's just inadequate.

Amongst all the horrors and injustice happening in Westeros Robert, Stannis and Renly are simply the worst

(well, after the mountain and boltons, but you get the point. stop blaming ned)

[wherewisteriaends]

Watching GoT for the first time

I saw someone do this with Grey's Anatomy but I can't find it again so if someone knows, give them credit for the idea. Anyway I am finally watching Games of Thrones for the first time with only a vague idea of the plot so here comes my stream of consciousness while doing so.

Obviously some spoilers ahead. Let's start off with season :

-The first hand saw Cersei and Jaime , I can bet on that.

-Ned, you're right winter is coming and you're wrong the night watch didn't deserve to die. -Bran, my dear.

-Is killing Joffrey do-able ? 'cause he kinda is a jerck and gets on my nerves

-I don't think Jon Snow is really smart. Tyrion was right about telling him what kind of privileges is was granted.

-I'm going to be a Joffrey slander. Lady did not deserve that ! Neither Sansa and Arya and the ginger boy.

-Gosh there are too many names !

-The faith or religious dogme is not made clear. I haven't read the books and I don't exactly understand what is there place/customs/beliefs. But it's fine 'cause they don't seem to have any big importance or whatsoever.

-Joffrey and Viserys slander.

- I don't know how but I always end up shipping ships that are rare on the Internet. Baelish x Catelyn in my heart

-Baelish is not reliable. He's even cocky about that.

-What the hell of a shitty king is that ? Robert, you suck.

-Robbert doesn't look like an exciting character to me. I don't know, I think he is lacking energy and complexity. He just looks like the good firstborn, the dutiful heir. However Arya ... I will be rooting for her. And no Ned, clearly she won't be a lady wife.

-I like the storytelling of the Targaryen story. It's very well introduced.

-I don't get why Sansa wants Joffrey to like her. Joffrey was the shitty man here, not your father.

-Ned, you're lacking good senses into the viper nest.

-They're blaming Tyrion and it's clearly not Tyrion and poor Tyrion (who looked very frightened) ; but oh Catelyn that was a power move. (not a very smart one tho)

-Catelyn my girl you're so smart. But also no, you're not.

-"Why ? Am I starting to make sense ?" such a powerful line.

-Rodrick is going to die. Who are we to pretend.

-I fear Bran words about the Tully devise are foreshadowing something.

-Ned, take the warning and listen to it.

-Varys is for the Targaryen !

-oh boy I came 'cause I hear about it but now I am staying for the politic plot. I love a bit of manipulation and hunger for power. -Ned I think you should leave to wait an hour to speak to someone. -Lysa is mad. She is completely mad. The son too. -Okay, Robber, you're not such a fool after all. But you have anger issues. -Cersei seems like a broken woman. Jaime is shit. -The hair Ned ! The hair ! -The whores watching is a funny thing to me. -Okay Robbert slander now ! You don't hit your wife. -And Cersei lying is getting you nowhere. They were witnesses. -The scene where Daenerys eats an heart lacked introduction. Vyseris you little filth, if you touch her because of her son, I swear I am finding way to bring you into reality and then murder you.

-This scene of the heart holds such a power. - They never gave it to you whiny boy 'cause you don't deserve it. You don't deserve anything truly. -Lysa and her boy are shitty. And Catelyn why the hell are you standing unmoved ? -Robbert is king but it is a Lannister rule. -He had it coming. Viserys only had himself to blame. -Yup, Dany, you're the dragon. -Tirwyn piecing a stag is a good metaphor. -He is a complete fool to tell her. Telling her does not preserve his honour. - Baelish teaching about sex and prostitution is - well very smutty obvi but also very true ; I love that guy. - Ned is so dead. Baelish is going for his head. - Ser Lorah the traitor ! Who got a change of heart. -Ned you should to him and go to war. - I love Baelish's logic. Nothing moral in it. But that is amazing scheming.

-And then Dany got what she wanted. - I knew Ned would die, I didn't think it would come so fast. Well he is not dead yet but that is clearly the way the season ends.

-I truly don't want to guess what happened to Sansa. -Varys calling him out on his madness is so right. He should have kept his mouth shut. Don't play the hero, you don't want to be the hero. -Sansa truly just wants to do good. -Bowing instead of fighting isn't the right answer. -I thought there were 5 Starks ... where is the last one ? -The 6 year old boy is right. - You're a bit delusional Catelyn. Ned is already dead. -Robb is foolish and idealized his father. Plus if this Umel does not betray you, it will be a miracle. - I also get the feeling Baristan will betray. - Okay I now stan Baristan. -Baelish and the side-eye >>> -Ned is not seeing the greater good for the realm but he is also right about the Lannister. - Poor little girl. Lord Frey is disgusting. - I did not made the link so I am surprised he is Jorah's father. And yes I can't remember his name. - Apart from the ones who are already mothers, women are truly just object. TwT. That's why I love Arya. That just disappeared by the way. -"Love is the death of duty" is a powerful sentence. But Ned is probably not the right exemple for this one. -Aemon was such a plot twist. -I feel very sorry for Tyrion. And technically he was raped by his first wife. -Joffrey was a bastard for this ! At least Cersei was right about it being madness. -The choice of silence for Ned's execution was a very good cinematic choice. - The knight I don't know the name did right by Arya. - JOFFREY SLANDER ! KILL THAT BOY HE DESERVES HELL - Gosh this Northern man has an ego - I honestly forgot they had Jaime. I love how Jaime knows he has sinned. -Cersei also sleeps with her nephew ??? -I don't know how Joffrey calls himself a legitimate king when the Baratheon are at war against him too - I love how neither Tywin and Tyrion are no fools. But the rest of the Lannisters all have too much ego for it. -Dany was truly desperate. -The old guy from the council is completely out of it. - I love Varys and Baelish relationship. -Arya and Robert's bastard is a good mix. -Dany was bold (and kinda mad) for this. -What an end for a season !

I will obviously be coming back for more. Good night/day everyone

[makerkenzie]

WHAT IF Robb Stark heeded good advice? Part 3

I'm back, lions and leopards. Your baby-eating deviant Lannistan is back, continuing the alternate timeline of "the North wins the war in this one." See Part 1: Things to do differently, and Part 2: How is that working out?

Where we left off: King Robb has a dawning realization that Lord Tywin isn't really fighting him on the battlefield. Everyone knows Stannis Baratheon is on his way to besiege King's Landing, and Robb understands King Stannis wouldn't be any more amenable to an independent North than the current Lannister regime is now. No matter who wins the battle, the Freys will probably turn cloak, and Robb can't afford that. He needs to have a productive discussion of terms before the siege, and the best candidate for that discussion is Acting King's Hand Tyrion.

King Robb's entourage will include:

His mother, Catelyn, who's proven an astute advisor, and has recent up-close experience with Tyrion.

Uncle Edmure, soon to become Lord of Riverrun.

Ser Stevron Frey is still alive in this one because they didn't attack Oxcross, so he didn't take a wound. He's the heir to the Crossing.

Lord Greatjon Umber, lord of Last Hearth and King Robb's fiercest supporter.

Ser Wylis Manderly, heir to New Castle.

Lady Maege Mormont of Bear Island.

Theon Greyjoy, heir to Pyke.

Their hostage Ser Jaime Lannister, the shiny thing to dangle in Tyrion's face.

Lady Brienne of Tarth, Lady Catelyn's sworn sword there to keep Ser Jaime in line.

There are probably some other people I should include in the team. I think it's definitely in King Robb's interest to bring this bunch, at least.

Team shows up at the Red Keep! If I were Robb, I'd give Ser Jaime several good meals along the trip and a bath, shave and clean clothes just before they let Tyrion see him.

Now this doesn't mean they're releasing Jaime into his brother's custody effective immediately. It means a prisoner exchange is on the table. They've brought him this far as a gesture of good faith.

...and in the spirit of good faith, Robb and Catelyn would like to see Sansa and Arya.

So Tyrion's all like, yes, of course. Here's Sansa! See, she's fine, we're taking good care of her!

Yes, good, and, what about Arya?

And Tyrion starts making shit up about Arya being such a trickster, always playing hide-and-seek, and this one time she didn't turn up for supper and it took the septa SEVEN HOURS to find her...

Cue the record scratch, freeze frame on Tyrion: "You must be wondering how I got here."

In all seriousness, the Starks' first suspicion is that Arya's dead and the Lannisters know it. Shit's about to get real, and Sansa starts making noises because she doesn't want to see her mom, big brother, and uncle get slaughtered or locked in cells. At some point Brienne gets in the middle of the fray and shockwaves everyone out to the edges.

Long story somewhat shorter: Tyrion insists they WANT to give Arya back to her family and they have people on the case of FINDING HER, and there's no reason to think she's dead. Sansa corroborates enough to tell the Starks it's still possible for Arya to turn up alive and the Lannisters aren't hiding her.

Back to the war camp outside the city walls. They let Tyrion sweat for a few days while Robb argues about terms and tactics with his team. Ultimately! Catelyn convinces her son that they still need to conclude the war sooner rather than later. Back to the Red Keep!

THIS TIME, as they know the Lannisters only have one of the girls to trade for Jaime, the Starks are in a stronger position.

From Tyrion's position: He's not convinced that Northern independence is even tenable, much less if they take the Riverlands with them. He's even less convinced there's any version of splitting the kingdom that his father would honor in the long term. He sees his assignment as getting Jaime safely home, and convincing the Starks to bend the knee, in that order.

With Team Stark at the table, Tyrion's questions are:

The Wall. Robb says yes, of course, it'll be the North's responsibility to maintain the Night's Watch. If men from the southern provinces want to volunteer for the Watch, they're granted safe passage through the North, but the Iron Throne is under no obligation. If the Wall is inadequately guarded and maintained, the North will bear the brunt of wildling raids.

Right, about that? Tyrion visited the Wall and hung out with men of the Watch and he'd like to know: what happens if the danger beyond the Wall is something much worse than a bunch of ragged people they don't like? How does the southern kingdom trust the North to protect everyone from a Snow Zombie invasion?

Robb's handwaving away that concern, but Tyrion has his reservations. He puts that one aside and moves on to:

The freaking Riverlands, I tell you. That's a problem. They want to take the center out of the kingdom? How are the other regions supposed to accept that?

Well, his daddy should've thought about that---

Yes, yes, his father ravaged the center of the kingdom, and it was easy. Of course once an agreement is reached, they'll withdraw their army from the Trident, yes. And how does the North intend to protect the Riverlands from invasion by other regional armies? It's either an independent kingdom, or not. That's the part where Ser Stevron and Uncle Edmure start asking to speak to King Robb in the next room.

After a tense discussion away from Tyrion, Robb comes back and assures him they'll have no problem with civilian travel through the Riverlands and of course they'll be responsible for protection. Edmure and Stevron still seem nervous but Tyrion is ready to move on.

If the new kingdom has a poor harvest and abrupt winter, they realize they can't ask the Iron Throne for food aid? They can buy food shipments from the Reach, sure, but if they can't pay for it, then they'll just have to suffer the famine. Which brings us back to the Wall.

If the Iron Throne gets word of a non-human threat coming from beyond the Wall, and the North has failed to support the Night's Watch enough to contain the threat, that's a problem for the entire continent. Again, Robb insists the Snow Zombies are long gone.

So Tyrion asks: But what if they're not long gone? If the Snow Zombies come back, and the North has failed to maintain the Wall, whether from hardship or disinclination, then the entire continent is in danger, and how does the North expect the southern kingdom to respond? The point is that if the North fails to protect the continent from supernatural threats, then its independence is null and void and the IT will re-annex the entire goddamn territory. Robb says okay, that's fine, because he is entirely sure the Snow Zombies aren't coming.

What about the Iron Islands? Are they part of the new independent Northern kingdom? No, they'll be another independent kingdom on their own. Oh really? So if the isles raid the North/Riverlands, they're prepared to deal with the attacks and not seek the Iron Throne's aid? Theon insists his dad won't do that. To which Tyrion feels like:

BUT SERIOUSLY, these terms aren't only applicable to the near future. When the current players' grandchildren are ruling their kingdoms, and the isles go raiding the Northern kingdom, then...?

13. So that's when Maege Mormont pulls Robb aside and there's another discussion behind the nearest closed door. They come back in looking moderately twitchy. Robb assures Tyrion he and his vassals will arrange their own safeguards against attacks from the isles.

14. Speaking of which! About the Ironborn currently attacking the west? They'll need to withdraw before the North gets any sort of agreement from the Lannisters. And if they want their own independence, they'll need to send a delegation down to KL to negotiate their own terms. Theon says yeah, okay, they'll do that. Tyrion says furthermore, if the isles go on attacking any of the southern provinces, and the North enables them in any way...the North's independence is null and void. Robb agrees, of course they will not enable the isles to raid the mainland. Tyrion continues that it goes without saying (but he's saying it anyway) that if the North/Riverlands attacks the southern kingdom, they will be re-annexed with extreme prejudice. Robb assures him they don't want any more war.

15. By this point, Tyrion's thinking he can actually get on board with splitting the kingdom. It's probably not sustainable past five years into the coming winter, but he's prepared to let them try it. There's still the matter of how much longer he'll be Acting King's Hand. He says to Robb, a treaty won't do them any good if his father rips it up. There's also the risk of Stannis taking over, and if he does, there's no way of knowing if he'll honor the treaty. (Catelyn knows.) The only assurance Tyrion can offer in that area is that if Stannis wins, and he doesn't honor the treaty, then the Starks don't have to pay tribute to the Iron Throne. Yes, they will be expected to make payments, which Tyrion is willing to divide into easily manageable amounts by spreading them over the next 200 years or so. Consider it 1) clean-up fee for their allies attacking the Westerlands, 2) restitution for forcing the Lannisters to divide their army whilst dealing with Stannis, and 3) insurance against Wall collapse. Fair or not, there's no way Tywin will honor the treaty if it doesn't include some sort of recompense. Even there, Tyrion offers an alternative: the Starks summon their army to KL to ally with the Lannisters against Stannis. Catelyn pulls her son aside and tells him: just make the payments. Their family can renegotiate the amounts with the next king or Hand.

16. With that much agreed, here's the procedure. First, the Starks exchange Tyrion's brother for Robb's sister before they leave the city, or there's no treaty. Second, they contact their allies in the west and demand immediate withdrawal. The treaty isn't valid until the invaders are gone. Finally, Tyrion promises to keep his agents searching for Arya, and if she turns up alive, they'll escort her back to Winterfell. HOWEVER: if Tywin honors the treaty, Cersei is likely to demand a hostage, and her demand will be supplied. So, the Starks need to prepare to say goodbye to another family member.

17. There are more prisoners of war on both sides. They'll stay where they are until after the battle. If Stannis wins...then, that'll be one of the less dangerous discussions the Starks will have with him.

18. The prisoner exchange is a joyous event. Sansa can't stop hugging her fam. Tyrion sticks Jaime in a tower cell in Maegor's Holdfast until he promises to hide in the secret tunnels during the battle. To their shock and horror, Cersei agrees with Tyrion that Jaime should sit out the battle after his months of being chained to a wall in Riverrun. Jaime promises to stay out of the fighting, just to make his siblings happy. And then when the battle begins, he disguises himself like a common man-at-arms and he goes out and fights. His presence on the field prevents Ser Mandon Moore from making his murder attempt on Tyrion. WHICH MEANS, Tyrion doesn't take any serious injuries during the battle, he isn't bedridden for days afterward, and his daddy can't railroad him out of the discussion following their victory. Things are getting twitchy between Jaime and Cersei.

19. The Starks send ravens to their allies in the west, followed by messengers in case the ravens don't make it, instructing withdrawal from the territory. Rickard Karstark doesn't like the news, as he still insists on killing Ser Jaime. Robb starts by reminding him of his surviving son Harrion, prisoner of the Lannister army, and follows by promising execution for insubordination. The Ironborn withdraw from the west, just in time for the Starks to get the heck out of Dodge before Stannis sails into Blackwater Bay. They ride back up to Riverrun and hold their breath for a resolution.

20. Tywin isn't exactly "happy" about the independence treaty, but he honors it because the war has already cost them huge amounts of gold, grain harvest, and lives. Tribute payments are welcome news. Cersei demands a hostage from the Starks, as promised. The Starks pause at the Twins on the way back to Winterfell so Robb can marry some giddy young she-weasel as they'd previously agreed. Nobody's head gets sewn onto a direwolf. Harrion Karstark goes home with his dad and Gawen Westerling goes home to the Crag.

21. The Starks roll up to Winterfell with Robb's new bride beside him and Brienne still serving Catelyn. Nobody's invaded or burned the castle. Theon is still their hostage and has all his appendages fully attached. There's the joyous reunion with Bran and Rickon, though Arya's absence is still heavy in the air. It's even more bittersweet when the raven arrives with Cersei's demand of a hostage. They're trying to convince Cersei to accept a sibling of the she-weasel, and Cersei is not having it. She demands one of Robb's family of birth, or she will claim his firstborn child. Just as the family are almost ready to accept they'll have to send Rickon to the Red Keep, Sandor Clegane rides up to the castle gates with Arya. There's another joyful reunion, and after rolling around in a pile of hugs and kisses with her children, Catelyn makes a decision: she will be the hostage. Brienne accompanies her to the Red Keep, where Cat releases her from service. Cersei is satisfied.

Now winter is coming and the North has its independence. It'll stay that way as long as they can keep the Riverlands secure. And as long as Balon Greyjoy behaves himself. And they have enough grain and salt beef to keep their people fed through the winter. And as long as the Wall doesn't crack. Sure, they've got it from there.

[hello-nichya-here]

How did Cersei get away with still being known as Cersei Lannister despite marrying a Baratheon? Do you think her hatred of Robert was part of the reason why she kept her last name or was it purely a matter of a Lannister being proud of being a Lannister?

Short answer: The women don't really have to take their husband's names in Westeros, but Cersei did do some shit that she shouldn't have done and she only got away with it because the Game Of Thrones is very real and her family was a major player.

Long answer: The women don't really have to take their husband's names in Westeros. For exemple, Catelyn is sometimes called "Catelyn Stark" since she married Ned, had his kids, lives in Winterfell and, more importantly, eventually supported her son in being king of the North.

But her name is still Catelyn Tully, and people still call her that, because house Tully is pretty important and has a good reputation. She'd only stop using that name/allowing people to call her that if her house was shit (like house Frey) and marrying a Stark made her sound more important.

Cersei still calling herself a Lannister, even while married to the freaking king, would not be seen as disrespect.

What should have, and did have, people wondering if something was wrong, was the identity of her children being overwhelmingly Lannister. And I'm not just talking about their looks, I'm talking about shit like Joffrey's banners having a stag and a lion in it, and the Lannisters trying to claim the red comet is a sign of the Gods blessing Joffrey's reign, even though he is a "Baratheon" so the comet should have been gold.

And while Cersei's name is not a rebellion on her part, plenty of things she did clearly were. She did get pregnant with Robert's child once, and had Jaime find a woman to, in her own words, "clean her." She made it clear to Ned that she took advantage of Robert's drinking to only ever have sex with him in ways that couldn't possibly get her pregnant, and in one of her POV's she is bragging to herself about "eating his heirs." And yes, that is both about her pride as a Lannister (who is fucking another Lannister) and about her resentment of Robert for being a terrible, straight up abusive husband.

While there's no way people could know all that, they could still notice that not a single of her children looks like their supposed dad. Ned literally only realized it once Sansa and Arya, two children, pointed out that even in personality Robert's supposed heirs had nothing of him. The fact that whenever Cersei went into labor, Robet wasn't there with her but Jaime was, didn't fucking help.

Having your honor - aka the the list of men of you slept with - questioned as a woman in Westeros can be a permanent stain not just for the woman's reputation, but for her family's as well. When your husband is the king, that can lead to a death sentence.

Yet the Lannisters, not just Cersei, were constantly trying to be seen as just as important as the Baratheons, or even to completely over-shadow them, which just screams that their ambition goes beyond just having one, or many, of their own marrying into royalty - they want to be the royal family, and Cersei and Jaime in particular wanted to replace Robert's lineage with their own.

In all honesty, they have some pretty strong Targaryen envy; They want to be so powerful that nobody can tell them what to do. They want to be so scary, that no one dares to revolt against them because it would be stupid. They want to be the legendary figures that changed Westeros forever. They want those damn dragons. And yes, Cersei and especially Jaime want to get away with incest.

So, how the hell did they all get away with their shit for so long?

1 - Robert was a drunk idiot. He does not give a fuck or even notice much around him, he just cares about drinking plenty of good wine, fucking some young whore, and not having Cersei bothering him. And he also had the bad habit of not listening to people telling him shit he didn't wanna hear (usually things that meant him having to deal with the bad side of being king instead of just enjoying the benifts). Can you imagine him reacting well if someone interrupts his fun to express their concerns about how Cersei made their kids wear red instead of gold in a feast?

2 - The crown was in debt to the Lannisters. Can't question their loyalty, otherwise they take the money away, AND use said money to destroy you - like, say, having all the guards turn against the hand of the king and getting him arrested for speaking out against the queen's bastard being crowned, right after said queen tore the letter the king's last wishes in front of everyone and nobody could do anything about it.

3 - While their behavior was weird, most people didn't realize just what was going on until Stannis spilled the beans on Cersei's kids being all bastards - full Lannister bastards. One would need to be around Cersei and/or Jaime (and sober), as well as look at the Baratheon family tree to fully connect the dots. Once that story was out, it became not just a case of one family trying to usurp the throne, but also of treason against the king AND a scandalous, taboo, illegal affair between the queen and her brother.

4 - While Cersei wanted to make sure Robert would have no heirs, pretty much nobody but Jaime supported her on that, otherwise Tywin would have found a way to get rid of Stannis, Shireen, Renly and any other baratheon as well, so Joffrey "Baratheon" would be the only choice. The head of the house was playing the long-game of having their family spending years, and years, and YEARS getting more and more entwined with royal family and it's business until they were royalty themselves, not the game of "let's secretly replace the royal family with our own by cucking the king" so while one would easily call the Lannister ambitious, very few would immediately call them traitors - and with little evidence and, once again, a king like Robert, that could backfire real fast.

5 - The Lannisters are not the only snakes around. You had people like Varys and Littlefinger, who would keep or expose people's secrets depending on what was convenient for their own goals and decided that the Lannister incest didn't need to come to light (at that point), and plenty of noble families like the Tyrells who could turn a blind eye to everything they knew because they don't care who is the true king, they just wanted a king one of their own could marry.

So yeah, Cersei, in a subtle yet not at all subtle way, showed she had no love, and more importantly, no loyalty towards her husband, the king. And if she wasn't a Lannister, or if house Lannister had played the game in a slightly different way, there is a pretty big chance that she would have paid the price for that a long time ago.

[aidansplaguewind]

When I first started watching GoT, I felt guilty for finding Baelish attractive, since he’s such a creep. His behavior towards Sansa is disgusting and he’s just a slimy person overall. But as I kept watching, I couldn’t help but notice how charming Aidan made that character, even though he really was a piece of shit. Obviously if Petyr Baelish existed in the real world, I would hate him, and I would never defend his actions, but I love him as a *character*. He brings so much to the story and was one of the main reasons why I enjoyed GoT.

I didn't feel guilty exactly because he's fictional, so I don't let that bother my morality too much. But when I first saw Aidan I found him to be very pointy featured, dainty, effeminate, and I hid it for a few days before letting my sister @papa-evershed find out because I thought she would think I was gross. At first glance I just didn't realize exactly how good-looking Aidan was. I honestly thought he was more of a kink.

And then after watching a few interviews of Aidan as himself I was like, "holy shit, he's my sister's type": shy, quiet, soft spoken. And then I was embarrassed about that too. His behavior in his interviews used to give me secondhand embarrassment so hard because he was so awkward 😅(He has come SO far with his interview skills. I'm so proud of him!) So, I figured initially my attraction would be more towards Petyr, cuz his naughtiness actually makes him appealing, and that it would be a phase and I'd move on to some other celebrity crush.

I never imagined I'd still be into him a decade later. And yet, here we are. The more I found out, the more I watched, the more I listened...the more enamored I became.

I fucking love him.

Oh and yeah, Petyr's cool too 😆 Yeah, see I can never stay on topic. But I'm glad Aidan ended up being even more awesome than Petyr. Otherwise I'd probably be answering some anon about some other celebrity dude right now.