#laren-dorrs

[asongofstarkandtargaryen]

Not to demonize Cat but the woman literally said Arya was a trial and she wanted her to be like Sansa; she admired Edmure’s efforts to look after his people but at the same time she saw them as useless mouths to feed; she wanted 14 year old Jon out of his own home in Winterfell. How is that supposed to be similar to him? Same with Sansa being Ned 2.0 just because she’s in the Vale. She doesn’t recall any of his lessons like his other kids do. He is a man who lived and died for his family and was overall well liked by his people. He carried Lyanna’s secret to his grave. Sansa snitched on her family (bitterly regretting it) because she was in love with the little psycho who tried to murder her sister and she barely had any contact with the smallfolk. The math doesn’t add up. Just reads like a Jon/sa fetich of NedCat 2.0, same people who insist Jon longs for Cat’s love and approval since he has oedipus complex or whatever. But one can not erase canon and none of the women Jon felt attracted to had anything to do with Cat. They need milk of the copey.

Yes, I agree with you.

Comparing Catelyn saying that Arya was "a trial" while the latter was missing to Jon gifting Arya the Needle, it's clear that those two characters view Arya's behavior differently.

Arya herself was doubting that her mother would want her ( which mind you wasn't true, Catelyn wanted both her daughters back. But it says a lot about the impression she had given to her child through her behavior). Meanwhile, she was certain that Jon would want her even if no one else would. Jon's acceptance is wholeheartedly, he doesn't criticize Arya's parts their society considers unwomanly ( and in fact, all the girls he finds attractive share those traits of hers).

Here is the thoughts of Catelyn when her brother gives shelter to innocent people in Riverlands war zone:

Only my sweet brother would crowd all these useless mouths into a castle that might soon be under siege.

ACOK - Catelyn I

Jon Snow in ADWD is doing exactly what Catelyn is criticizing her brother for, he gives shelter to "useless mouths" ( aka all the Wildings that can't contribute to the fight against the Others).

Jon's worldview, beliefs and behavior is so different from Catelyn's that it's laughable to claim that "he's Catelyn with Ned/Lyanna's characteristics". Do they have a couple of things/ traits in common? Surely, but so does almost any pair of pov characters. That doesn't mean all of them are copies of each other.

Moving to Sansa, I disagree with the fandom's notion that she's Ned 2.0. As you said, she doesn't recall his lessons like his other children do. That's not to condemn her because Ned taught mainly the boys and Catelyn was responsible for the girls ' education ( Arya is the exception here because we know that she liked to follow her father and see him performing his duties as the Castle's Lord).

And then there is the scene where Sansa tells Cersei her father's plan. Again, I'm not gonna codemn a 11 years old for making a silly decision but considering that a major theme in Ned's story is that he never revealed his sister's secret, preferring to soil his honor in order to protect it I fail to see the similarities between father and daughter in terms of personal values and priorities.

As I often say, Sansa was way closer to her mother than she ever was to her father and she shares some core beliefs with her ( plus her narrative comparison to Cat is important due to the Littlefinger obsession with both of them). So if the fans want to link Sansa to any of her parents, Catelyn the correct choice imo.

On a side note, I'm sure that you probably meant no harm but I don't like the word "psycho" to describe awful characters. Joffrey was a little shit but that was because he was spoiled by his mother and neglected by his father. He didn't have any psychosis. Mental illnesses affect real people and that's why I don't like seeing them being used as slurs.

[esther-dot]

From what I remember of that tale, everyone seems to have several lovers. But Boyce feels really attracted to Gray Alys, at some point he thinks they belong together since they both can shapeshift.

Gray Alys has gray eyes, she's ageless, slender, small, thin lips. Melange's looks are unknown, we don't know her hair/eye color, she's described as beautiful/wise, but also young/foolish, ruler of her land, but we never read from her "POV", she's like a secondary character in the back. Jerais has blue eyes like saphires & very red hair, more like orange. Boyce has dark eyes and pale/white hair & as a werewolf white skin/red eyes.

Melange/Jerais or Melange/Boyce or even Alys/Boyce aren't that similar to Jon/Sansa. Jerais/Boyce maybe, but they were more like rivals. The OP kinda forced the similar Jon/Sansa looks by saying Jerais (redhead/blue eyes) marries Melange, whose looks we don't know and only can shapeshift into a white skin/red eyes wolf after Boyce's death by wearing its wolfskin.

But it's true that GRRM recycles past characters to his asoiaf world, so IMHO Laurie/Robb from A Song for Lya & Sharra/Laren Dorr from The Lonely Songs of Laren Dorr are more similar to Jon/Sansa, inside and out; while Sandy/Ananda from The Armageddon Rag are more similar to Jon/Dany with all the past lover kill/destroy their ex with messiah complex pattern.

(continuation of this convo)

Yes, to me that is the idea, that an author has something on their mind (a theme, an archetypal character etc) that they will write and rewrite into their stories to study it from different angles.

It’s not an issue that you don’t find a there there, but I don’t know that you’re gonna be able to dissuade people from reading ASOIAF, reading that post and thinking, “Actually, I do buy that Martin has a thing with red haired characters getting together with someone connected to a white wolf.” It’s the nature of literature, I think, for us each to experience it in a unique way.

It would be nice to think the ex lover stabbity stab was entirely D&D’s concoction. It’s distressing that that’s a recurring theme y’all are finding. ☹️

[blue-mint-winter]

Reading Dreamsongs - short stories by GRRM - Part 2

3 fantasy stories and 3 horror stories. Beware spoilers.

The Lonely Songs of Laren Dorr - a fantasy story about a girl named Sharra who travels between worlds in search of her lost love. She visits a world that has only one, very lonely inhabitant - Laren Dorr. A pretty good story, quite romantic. I liked the twist. 6/10

The Ice Dragon - a story about a young girl called Adara that becomes a secret rider of an ice dragon. I enjoyed the story, especially the dragon battle between the ice dragon and fire-breathing dragons was very exciting. 7/10

In the Lost Lands - a shapeshifting witch Grey Alys is asked by Lady Melange to grant her the power of turning into a wolf. The witch meets Boyce, a man who accompanies her to lost lands on her mission. The story is based on the concept of "be careful what you wish for", as Alys grants all the wishes, usually with unforeseen, unpleasant consequences for requesters, however the story barely spends any time on Lady Melange, instead the most developed character is Boyce. I think the story should have focused on Alys and exploring who she was and why she was even granting people's wishes besides getting paid. 5/10

Remembering Melody - a horror story about a man that is visited by Melody, an old friend who is asking for his help again. Melody is a nuisance for their group of old friends and becomes insufferable, so he wants her gone. She takes that literally and kills herself in his shower, because she wants to leave him something to remember her by. Turns out Melody is a ghost and she haunts and makes her old friends go insane. I guess the ending could have been scarier, she only got one of them, MC was second and even with him it's uncertain if he will snap and she still didn't get the last person. 6/10

The Monkey Treatment - best story out of this batch, it's about Kenny, a man that really loves to eat. Kenny and his love for food are described in such a way that he instantly became very likeable. He's one of the best protagonists in Martin's stories. The titular Monkey Treatment is a supernatural diet - Kenny met a friend who lost a lot of weight and told him the address for the treatment that consisted of a shady fat man putting a monkey on Kenny's back. Then the monkey started snatching away all his food and punishing him if he tried to talk about it or misbehaved in any other way. Kenny was in a really rough time. I think the most surprising thing for me was that this horror story had a happy ending. The story reminds me of Thinner by Stephen King, which is an amazing horror novel about a man losing weight due to a curse. Anyway, The Monkey Treatment gets 9/10, it was a great read.

The Pear-Shaped Man - a woman moves into a new apartment with her roommate and meets the Pear-Shaped Man who lives in the basement of her building. It seems that the man is stalking her, but her friends tell her she's obsessed with him and she has to confront her fears, so she goes to his place. It ends with body switching, but she quickly loses her sense of self and starts thinking and acting like the Pear-Shaped Man, so it feels like nothing really changed. I guess it cut down the horror built by the general creepiness of the Pear-Shaped Man. Becoming him just doesn't really feel like the worst thing that could have happened to her. 5/10

[butterflies-dragons]

THE LONELY SONGS OF LAREN DORR - Dreamsongs, Volume I - George R. R. Martin

Art credit: The opening scene, where Sharra escapes through a portal, and the monster fades away, leaving her injured in a new world... By Luis Royo

[poetsandwriters]

When my motivation to write wanes, I listen to Stefan Rudnicki read George R. R. Martin’s story ‘The Lonely Songs of Laren Dorr.’...Something about hearing the recurrent description of a purple sun brings me back to my school years of reading fantasy, and suddenly it becomes easier for me to rebuild the motivation necessary to keep writing.

Dennis E. Staples, in this week’s Writers Recommend; read the rest at pw.org!

[shadowanndeath]

Struggles of an Empath

If I'm happy

Then why

when we are apart

are you the one on my mind.

I've asked myself this question for a while now.

But I've finally figured it out.

My feelings for you are not greater than the ones I have for him

It's simply that

His presence just pales in comparison to yours

The difference is like

A passionate exclamation or

A sweet whisper I'm my ear

Light fingers on soft skin

Or teeth marks in my flesh

One is not greater than then other

But other is not greater than one

Still you're so hard to ignore

I can feel you over leagues

And his mind is so delicate that sometimes I can't even sence him when he's asleep in my arms

(but oh when I can)

His mind is almost as complex as mine

(not to say yours isn't)

But still you are there in the back of my mind

Would it have been better to keep my distance

So that your voice would still be lost in the noise

But I digress I'm helplessly curious sometimes

And your fantasies are so beautifully infectious…

Inspirations

The Lonely Songs of Laren Dorr (Main)

(Tbh she should have stayed even if it wasn't obvious that they were the same dude)

A Song for Lya

The Ice Dragon (light inspiration)

All in George RR Martin's Dreamsongs anthology

Been re-listening to Dreamsongs and finally fully heard a couple that I slept through the first time, The Lonely Songs of Laren Dorr and, George's favorite, The Ice Dragon. Have to say, I really missed out. A Song for Lya has always been my favorite by the way he is able to portray what it's like being an empath.

[joannalannister]

After GRRM said Jon is gonna be a fire wight in the books, I’m even more excited about Jon/Dany in the books because that feels to me exactly like the sort of doomed romance GRRM loves to write, like “The Lonely Songs of Laren Dorr” or “This Tower of Ashes,” all doomed.  

Think of it tho!!! A fire zombie and the bride of fire!!! I think there will be elements of classic Beauty and the Beast to it because, in Cocteau’s BATB, which GRRM loves, “The Beast’s own task is [...] the reclaiming of the human within himself.” After Jon spends time in Ghost (not to mention the zombie part), I think he’ll be “less human” / more Beast for a while, and there will be such a great internal messianic struggle of why Jon wants to save humanity after he was betrayed by people he trusted. 

And what better way for Jon to find his humanity again than by falling in love, “our great glory,” the greatest celebration of our humanity, a defiant declaration of resistance to the Others when Jon and Dany visit the alien realm of faerie beyond the curtain of light at the end of the world

and just!!! a fire wight who’s already semi-dead but still has one last mission to accomplish, and a living girl who would give her life to save the world if that’s what it took, WHAT A GOOD DOOMED ROMANCE, I’M SO EXCITED, BRING ME THAT HORIZON

[kellyvela]

What’s your favorite GRRM work other than ASOIAF?

It's difficult to pick only one, so I will give you some of them:

The Lonely Songs of Laren Dorr. This one is beautiful, very romantic and sad. The kind of story that Sansa Stark would like and cry about it.

In the Lost Lands. This one is the essence of Aesop's Fables famous moral: "Be careful what you wish for, lest it come true!"

Portraits of His Children. This one is creepy, crude, heartrending and I would even say very personal.

Meathouse Man. Probably the saddest story I've ever read. GRRM wrote this story with a broken heart, and you can feel his pain, the feel of not being enough, of not being worthy of love. Also VERY creepy.

A Song for Lya. Sad GRRM is the best writer. He wrote this story with a broken heart, but he never lost faith in love, the final is very hopeful. When he met his wife Parris, she told him this story made her cry.

Thanks for your message :)

[thefandomentals]

The Transience of Human Connections in GRRM’s The Lonely Songs of Laren Dorr

Part of the GRRM Reading Project.

First published in Fantastic in 1976, The Lonely Songs of Laren Dorr is considered by George R. R. Martin (GRRM) as his first pure fantasy story as a professional writer.

“Keen-eyed readers will notice certain names and motifs that go all the way back to ‘Only Kids Are Afraid of the Dark,’ and other names and motifs that I would pick up and use again in later works.” (GRRM in Dreamsongs: A RRetrospective)

Sharra and her powers were originally meant for the Doctor Weird mythos, but by the late ‘70s Martin had moved away from his fanfiction days. He eventually moved away from Sharra as well; his plans to create more stories for her never came to fruition.

Not that it matters: the beauty of The Lonely Songs of Laren Dorr is precisely how it values the transitory, and how something doesn’t need to last to be touching.

Keep Reading

[lherian]

Ho avuto la fortuna, in questi anni da giocatore di ruolo (Master e Giocatore) di conoscere e frequentare molte persone.

Molti arrivano e molti se ne vanno, alcuni ritornano, altri spariscono. C’è chi smette e chi si appassiona per la prima volta, c’è chi resta sempre un po’ a metà strada tra il coinvolgimento e la semplice routine come c’è chi dalla prima sessione capisce cosa vorrà fare. Ci sono quelli che si esaltano, e quelli che calcolano. C’è chi è caloroso e chi è timido, chi è espansivo e riservato, chi ama giocare e chi ama “l’altro lato della barricata”, c’è chi è per un gioco piuttosto che per un altro, e c’è a chi basta giocare.

Potrei andare avanti per ore, ma tagliamola qui.

Quello di oggi è un pensiero dedicato ad alcuni dei tanti gruppi di cui ho fatto parte o di cui sono ancora parte. Purtroppo (ahimè) ho poche foto, quindi per molti gruppi userò disegni o immagini in qualche maniera collegate a quel gruppo o quella specifica campagna.

Ne ho scelti solo alcuni e li ho pubblicati così, senza alcuna graduatoria od ordine. L’articolo è dedicato a tutti, citati e non.

Grazie di cuore a tutti voi.

Davvero grazie.

  EDIT

Ad inizio 2017 e dopo più di anni dal post originale mi trovo a pensare che la maggior parte dei gruppi non citati in questo articolo non lo sono stati solo per la mancanza di una buona immagine rappresentativa di quella che è stata la “vita” della partita. E questo, ovviamente, è vero soprattutto per le sessioni più lontane temporalmente da adesso (come le primissime avventure ai tempi del liceo! Ridendo e scherzando, ormai si tratta di dodici anni fa) oppure per le sessioni più brevi.

Ma questo non sminuisce in nessuna maniera quelle specifiche partite, sessioni e avventure! In fondo, più la sessione è coinvolgente, meno è probabile ricordarsi di immortalare il momento. 

Vi sono alcune aggiunte e alcuni testi sono stati riformulati, ma proprio per la sua intrinseca incompletezza questo articolo è, come il precedente, dedicato a tutti.

Citati e non, senza distinzione né ordine alcuno.

Grazie di cuore a tutti, e ancora una volta i miei migliori auguri per un 2017 ricco di sessioni, campagne e avventure!

Lherian

  Qualcuno è forse in PARANOIA per l’anno nuovo?

Beh, davvero non c’è male come inizio 2017.

  Gli eroi della Battaglia della Piana

Perché grazie a loro è stata creata una leggenda, tramandata da generazione a generazione (… e da giocatore a giocatore).

  I Ritualisti Anonimi

Kabula

Perché quando un mago, uno stregone, uno sciamano, un druido e un lich decidono di formare un gruppo solo per affrontare qualsiasi avversità tramite rituali magici… Il risultato è garantito.

Ogni riferimento a ziggurat rituali e cataclismi di scala mondiale è puramente casuale.

  La Compagnia di Westfall

Sentinel Hill

Perché insieme a loro è stata creata vita dove nessuno pensava potesse crescere, e dove difficilmente qualcuno avrebbe detto che potesse continuare.

  Nauto e Alex

  Nauto e Alex, insieme ovviamente a tutti gli altri. Anche con quei due un po’ in disparte.

Perché ogni momento insieme a loro è stato leggendario, caloroso, forte, vivo.

  I soci fondatori de “All’Ombra della Quercia”

(da sinistra verso destra) Thanor Cuordimetallo, Giuseppe Cortesi, Nelium Oleander, Laren Dorr

Perché alla fine tra potere, denaro e conquiste hanno sempre scelto l’amicizia, la condivisione e la fiducia. Sempre all’Ombra della Quercia.

  Grandi Antichi, Gatti, coccole e pisolini

I Grandi Antichi, nella mente di alcuni individui, potevano diventare qualcosa di “puccioso”. Folli. Quasi folli come coloro che pensavano di potersi salvare dalla perdita di sanità mentale grazie al loro essere gatti.

  I Compagni dei due primi Lysander

Mago nero

Perché anche se di loro si parla pochissimo, sono coloro che lo hanno fatto nascere.

  La seconda drammatica pausa di oscurità

Kheratus, Arcimago

Non è stata la prima, ma anche nell’oscurità si può trovare vita. Magari non sarà gradevole, ma sarà sempre vita. E non mi sto riferendo all’Arcimago. O meglio, non solo.

  Dopo che il Gladio fu spezzato

Sopravvivere nell’arena non è per niente facile, ma dopo aver spezzato per la seconda volta il gladio di legno la vita sembra più facile. Forse lo è davvero. O forse lo sembra solamente.

  Cavalieri, Ladri e Valchirie

Perso (sinistra) e Ferej (destra)

Perché non ci sono compagni migliori che un Paladino possa avere.

  I figli dei Cavalieri, dei Ladri e delle Valchirie

Si va in gita in montagna trullala…

Perché non importa non avere discendenti diretti. Nei figli dei miei amici vive tutt’ora anche quel Paladino compagno di avventure dei genitori.

  Avventure, paesini e progetti per il futuro

Il desiderio di mettere su casa e famiglia è direttamente proporzionale alla mortalità delle avventure affrontate dal gruppo di avventurieri.

  I Compagni del Signor Inquisitore

Dark Heresy

SPARAAAAAAAARE (Kraal in qualsiasi sessione di Dark Heresy) (cosa volete farci, quando non rutta spara. O pesta. O alcune di queste cose contemporaneamente)

Dark Heresy più infiltrato (si intuisce la sessione successiva?)

Necron! brutte bestie per dark heresy

  Perché l’Imperatore è nostro scudo e protezione, il Signor Inquisitore ci ha scelto, e adesso noi siamo noi. Insieme.

  Non ci sarà altro chierico al di fuori di lui

Perché scoprire durante l’Adventurers League che OGNI tuo personaggio chierico in realtà rispecchia un unico personaggio, totalmente incapace di combattere e maestro della guarigione, apre possibilità che prima potevi solo immaginare.

  Novizi & Mondo Inamovibile 

Perché essere i compagni di gruppo di alcuni novizi e litigare contro l’innata necessità di violare le avventure di alcuni ignoti membri del gruppo (Dikoleo) semplicemente non ha prezzo. Perché vedere come discussioni, lanci di dado, regolamenti e il (giustamente) disperato desiderio del Master di tenerci lungo la strada giusta abbiano lasciato una scintilla nello sguardo dei giocatori, beh… Se non ci emozioniamo così, come altro dovremmo fare? ;)

  Il Diario della Rosa dei Venti

Kher, Taran, Rosetta, e tutti i nostri amici

  Perché esistono forme di amore che difficilmente possono essere capite senza averle provate almeno una volta.

  Lo strano caso del gruppo di D&D

Da sinistra verso destra: Hares (monaco umano), Eilgalash (druido mezz’elfo), Vaan (guerriero umano), GM / Vassily (ladro umano), Nadia (strega umana)

Perché vi si trova un druido caotico malvagio che si millanta neutrale, un monaco legale buono dall’interiore furia omicida, una padella deambulante, un orbo cleptomane e una strega bellissima aromatizzata al goblin. Serve altro?

  La barzelletta delle terre perdute occidentali

Tavolo da Sine (one-shot)

Perché un tedesco, un inglese e un italiano nelle terre perdute occidentali sopra un sidecar suona molto come l’inizio di una barzelletta. Ma alla fine hanno molta più vita di quello che dall’esterno potrebbe sembrare.

  I Mille Volti del Potere

Demone di Slaanesh

Perché la corruzione risiede nel corpo, nello spirito e nell’anima. Ed essa, a differenza delle credenze più diffuse, può essere realmente abbracciata.

  Quando MouseGuard divenne Redwall

Ognuno ha i propri ricordi indelebili dell’infanzia e prima adolescenza. Avere l’opportunità di rivivere e far vivere durante delle sessioni alcuni dei propri più cari ricordi è davvero senza prezzo.

  Legione Penale “CANI URLANTI”

Perché quando pensi di aver raggiunto il fondo, puoi sempre cominciare a scavare. E ‘sta pur sicuro che quello che troverai non ti piacerà per niente, perché non la chiamano “legione penale” senza motivo. E se sopravvivrai lo scoprirai sulla tua stessa pelle.

Gdr: Sessioni e Gruppi di Gioco Ho avuto la fortuna, in questi anni da giocatore di ruolo (Master e Giocatore) di conoscere e frequentare molte persone.

[gendrie]

Do you think GRRM will ever allow Arya's hair to grow back? Just curious

if he were to ever finish the books, perhaps, but he wont so no

[joannalannister]

I think GRRM’s most painful works are his most sublime tho. I never talked about “The Lonely Songs of Laren Dorr” after I read it, because it #rekt me. It was beautiful, and beautifully sad, and I was devastated afterwards. I felt similar feelings after Fevre Dream, and after the select few other stories that GRRM praises as his best writing. 

[joannalannister]

I'm glad you enjoyed the con and hope you're doing well rn. I've been thinking of ways to expand on Westerosi culture and wished to ask if you had suggestions regarding songs and stories in the West? As in, what events in Westerlands history/folklore could you see being adapted into song, poetry, and theater? What would be the format? Royal/Lordly policy re content and sponsorship? Also, is your Westerosi name Loryn or Lauryn and how would Lady Joanna feel about her husband's hidden tunnel?

Oh what a fun question! There’s a wealth of material to inspire songs and stories in the westerlands; I don’t even know where to start. 

Lann the Clever (I guess one simply must start with him)

Corlos

Disparaging songs about Tytos Lannister / House Lannister (these songs are rarely, if ever, sung anymore, for obvious reasons)

Bawdy songs / pantomimes featuring milkmaids

Sailor’s sea shanty type songs in Lannisport, mixing with songs from all over the world

I imagine that the Westerlands is a very rigid, repressed society – more so than the Reach, and much much more so than Dorne - like, Robert comments in AGOT about women in the Crownlands / Stormlands / Reach swimming naked & wearing immodest clothing in the heat – I think that would be a no-no in the westerlands (and tbh I think the westerlands is cooler than other southron regions – it’s a theme ok!! “the real enemy is the cold” – dorne is warm, the westerlands is not warm) 

and the more repressed a society is, the more important inversion festivals are. (Think Halloween in the US.) In material that was cut from the world book, Tytos was called the Lord of Misrule, which would have been a title normally reserved for someone of low status, to preside over a Feast of Fools. So I think the Feast of Fools is an annual inversion festival in the westerlands, with songs to go along with it.

You know how there are fairy tales from our own world told in Westeros? 

I think some of these fairy tale stories are popular in the westerlands

Rapunzel (it’s a self-referential, meta moment)

Obviously educated people in the westerlands don’t believe in merlings, but the fisherfolk claim to see them. (Those merlings exist and this is a hill I will die on.) Hence,

The Little Mermaid (not the Disney version. something closer to the HCA version, with modifications. I would imagine the westerlands version is more classist)

“Dark as a Dungeon” by Joan Baez (about the terrible conditions down in a mine, but about gold, not coal) to be popular on the streets of Lannisport. I’ve stolen this quote from Wheel of Time: 

“They sang as they marched, the massed voices enough to punch through the rest of the noise. […] A fat knot of [people] trailed along behind, townsmen and refugees mingled, young men all, watching curiously and listening. It never ceased to amaze Mat. The worse the song made [conditions] seem— this was far from the worst— the larger the crowd. Sure as water was wet, some of those men would be talking to a bannerman before the day was out, and most who did would sign their names or make their mark. They must think the song was an attempt to scare them off"

Are you familiar with Lovecraft’s creatures inhabiting the hills of Vermont in “The Whisperer in Darkness”? Yeah, those. Horror stories about those, but more medieval

Songs about idealized women

Creation myths about giants in the hills

“The Lonely Songs of Laren Dorr” 

“In the Lost Lands” - a queen hires a trader to obtain the gift of shapeshifting (again, a self referential moment)

Lots of songs dissing the Gardeners and celebrating Lannister victories against the Reach

It’s midnight, and I haven’t even talked about HALF. I haven’t mentioned Alan the Blind Bowman, or Crake the Boarkiller, or the Hooded Man, or Pate the Plowman, or Spotted Pate (AFFC Pate was originally from the westerlands!!). But I’m sure there are songs and stories about all those famous guys in the world book, doing stuff like expanding the kingdom, trickster stories, battle stories, that kind of thing. 

I’m not sure what you mean by format. Like, you mean the type of word rhythm Shakespeare used or ?? I’m not sure I’m the person to ask about that. Like, I think there are mummers and minstrels and bards in the westerlands, if that’s what you mean. 

In terms of content / censorship, I think the general rule is “Keep your betters happy.” 

In terms of my Lannister name - I think it would still be Lauren. Like Daven. 

If you want, could you please send me a separate ask with your Joanna question? 

I don’t even think I really got to talk about everything i might like to about songs and stories in the westerlands, but i have to go to sleep now, so maybe I will add to this more later. 

[joannalannister]

It’s always bothered me that Gandalf comes back from the dead. The Red Wedding for me in Lord of the Rings is the mines of Moria, and when Gandalf falls — it’s a devastating moment! [...] And then in the next book, he shows up again, and [...] ehh, he’s more or less the same as always, except he’s more powerful. It always felt a little bit like a cheat to me. And as I got older and considered it more, it also seemed to me that death doesn’t make you more powerful. That’s, in some ways, me talking to Tolkien in the dialogue, saying, “Yeah, if someone comes back from being dead, especially if they suffer a violent, traumatic death, they’re not going to come back as nice as ever." That’s what I was trying to do, and am still trying to do, with the Lady Stoneheart character. [...]

And poor Beric Dondarrion, who was set up as the foreshadowing of all this, every time he’s a little less Beric. His memories are fading, he’s got all these scars, he’s becoming more and more physically hideous, because he’s not a living human being anymore. His heart isn’t beating, his blood isn’t flowing in his veins, he’s a wight, but a wight animated by fire instead of by ice, now we’re getting back to the whole fire and ice thing.

--GRRM, when asked about Jon Snow being “drained by the experience of coming back from the dead”

I feel like this is relevant to what I was saying about Jon and the WftD, before this interview came out:

“In the cold night air the wound was smoking. […] He never felt the fourth knife. Only the cold …”

and this juxtaposition of cold and heat here is fascinating to me, you have the cold of the night’s watch, their resistance to Jon’s causes, and then you have Jon’s smoking, fiery passion to save everyone literally bleeding out of him as he dies

P l e a s e click the above link, I don’t wanna explain all those ice vs fire thoughts again, but anyways, to me, the War for the Dawn seems like the ice cold of the Others trying to destroy the fiery passion of humanity, and to chain and enslave humanity and turn everyone into their ice slaves to do their bidding, with no will of their own.

When the Watch stabs Jon Snow, they do the Others’ work for them, doing the work of ice, turning Jon cold and dead, and Melisandre is gonna have to bring Jon back in TWOW, lend him some fire to be able to do the work that he left unfinished. 

And if Jon’s a “wight animated by fire” to me it feels like Jon is being brought back for this one specific purpose - to fight in the War for the Dawn - so once that’s over, does he ... idk what words I’m looking for here ... expire? release his hold on life? Whatever it is Jon’s gonna do, I keep saying, I don’t believe Jon’s gonna be around after the War for the Dawn, and I really don’t think Dany or Tyrion are gonna survive it either. 

and this is reallyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy really speculative now, ok, im just spitballing in the absence of any new book material, but I’ve wondered for a while if Benjen is being held hostage by the Others, like “Aliens hold the initial human hostage in stasis to study him or use him as bait or w/e” kind of thing in a scifi. Like, the Others need an example of humanity’s “fire” for mass destruction or s/t idk. 

And so what I’m wondering now is, if the Others have this sort of ... “token” fire to use against humanity 

what if

one of the prophecy’s rhaegar read predicted that, predicted benjen being captured (not by name or w/e, just something)

and Rhaegar was trying to counter this prophecy, by building his Team Humanity of three fire babies

(oh, heyyyyy, Elia’s sigil was a sun, that’s pretty fucking cool, Rhaegar must have been pretty happy with that while he was making his first two babies)

so anyways

Rhaegar was trying to counter whatever the prophecy said the others were trying to do, with some sort of, for lack of a better phrase, “token” ice teammate, so he becomes quite enchanted by the idea of Lyanna, to create his third fire baby with a touch of “ice”

except as we all know, you can’t force prophecy, prophecy has a mind of its own, and maybe the prophecy was really about how jon would die by cold/ice and be resurrected in fire

idk, these are only half formed thoughts, I’m just spitballing here, please do not take this as gospel truth, you do not need to respond with a 5000 word essay on why i am wrong, this is just 10 minutes of a free thinking exercise, chill

i think this idea of “fire wights” is important tho

(and yes, if GRRM can write a story about a giant spider falling in love, then fuck yes I think GRRM can write a story about a fire wight falling in love with a doomed living girl, asoiaf is all about love, my god. i wish i had a gif of bart simpson on a skateboard wearing a jon/dany tshirt . “cliche” 👀  godddddd, have i told you all how much i love grrm’s doomed love stories, my godddddddd, i loved them in dreamsongs, i loved them, i am soooooooooo ready for twow, i am sooooooo ready for jon/dany in the books. so ready.) 

((the idea of “fire wight falling in love with living girl” makes me love J/D even more, it’s doomed, doooooomed, doomed like The Lonely Songs of Laren Dorr, I still haven’t recovered from that. SO READY FOR TWOW. SO READY.)

[joannalannister]

I've seen you reblogging Jon/Dany stuff and I'm curious how likely you think that level of love/romance would be in the coming canon. Even putting aside whatever state Jon is going to be in post-resurrection, I'm not sure their past relationships suggest that each would be the other's type for instant attraction, and I don't know if they'd have time to develop much of a relationship what with the oncoming winter apocalypse. Or is it just a ship people like the idea of but don't expect?

Oh no, I don’t think the all-American, crewcut, boy-next-door Jon Snow we’ve seen in AGOT - ADWD is Dany’s type for instant attraction at all! 

Dany’s the type who likes rockstars with wild hair, and the power and danger of a big ol’ Harley-Davidson between her legs. She’s looking for a maverick fighter pilot from Top Gun to ride one of her dragons.  She wants a rebel with a cause, not a lost, grieving boy. I don’t think the Jon Snow we know is the type of guy Dany’s looking for!

But Jon Snow died. ;)

In the words of the King, “The person you put up there ain’t the person that comes back. It might look like that person, but it ain’t that person” (Pet Semetary). “Resurrection… ah, there’s a word (that you should put right the fuck out of your mind and you know it).”

GRRM has said that “Death is hard.” It changes a person. Look at the Lightning Lord. Look at Lady Stoneheart. They remember, but they’re not the same people anymore. I think Jon Snow, after spending some time in Ghost, is going to come back wilder. More reckless, more dangerous, more … rockstar. So I think Dany will find Jon very attractive. 

(from Jesus Christ Superstar) 

(Will TWOW please come out soon, because my ASOIAF / pop culture analogies are getting wilder and wilder.) 

So anyways, you can’t just “put aside” Dragonriding Rockstar Jesus Jon Snow and his Resurrection, or his Freefolk Groupies on the tv show, or his tv manbun when considering the potential for Jon/Dany. The resurrection – and the change it will bring – is a big reason why I think Jon/Dany has potential.

So how likely do I think there will be love/romance between Jon/Dany in canon? I’m certain of it. I think Jon and Dany will grow very close as they fight together to save the world, and I think that’s a beautiful thing. I’ll wager money on Jon/Dany falling in love in the books before the end of ADOS; any takers? First come, first served. 

I’m not saying there won’t be issues Jon and Dany need to work out, or that they’re just gonna say “Hi” before asking each other to winter prom so they can bang on the backseat of a dragon. 

I’m not sure their first meeting will go smoothly, or end well.

I don’t know the lay of the land for this journey GRRM is going to take us on. 

But I feel very strongly that our destination is Jon and Dany being in love before the books end. I don’t care how cliched, how trope-y anybody says it is; GRRM loves this trope-y, cliched fantasy shit. (I love it too.)

Do you remember Vaes Tolorro? Dany ate a peach in ruins bleached bone-white by the sun. The juice stained her cheeks as she ate, “so sweet she almost cried.” Vaes Tolorro is one of my favorite places in ASOIAF. It was cut from the tv show, because it wasn’t significant to the plot. 

It’s thematic significance is paramount, however. Vaes Tolorro is about life. It’s hope, in the midst of rack and ruin. It’s about standing in the shade of one of those white buildings and looking out at that sun-drenched Red Waste, at that endless sea of death stretching from horizon to horizon, and saying, “Not today. Not to-fucking-day.” It’s a glorious city, even in ruins. It’s defiant. As glorious and defiant as Casterly Rock in its own way, and I can speak no higher praise. 

“From the ashes a fire shall be woken, A light from the shadows shall spring” and all that jazz about hope and life and rebirth. 

To steal the words of Robert Jordan, “Almost dead yesterday, maybe dead tomorrow, but alive, gloriously alive, today.” 

That’s what Vaes Tolorro is all about. 

That’s part of what ASOIAF is all about: “I’m alive. I’m still here, I’m up against the impossible and I’m still trying, I’m still breathing, I’m still standing, and you’re not going to treat me that way anymore. My life has meaning, my life is valuable, and you’re not going to treat me like a kicked dog. I’m alive. I’m a human being. And don’t you forget it. Because I will prevail.” Whether the “you” is a man as small as Randyll Tarly or a force as big as the Others, it doesn’t matter. To each and every one of them, what do we say? 

Not today, motherfucker.

That’s what GRRM is saying when he writes paragraph-long descriptions of food that make your mouth water, and songs to make your heart ache, and yes, love and sex. 

Every morsel the characters eat, every voice lifted in song to ask the Gentle Mother for mercy, every “often and unpredictable” kiss … it’s a celebration of life. 

And every celebration of life is an act of defiance against the Others who would destroy all life on Terros. Every kindness, every act to humanize one another … it’s a bulwark against the Others. Every time the Tywins and Tarlys and Boltons of the world work to dehumanize another person, they’re aiding the enemy. They’re traitors to life itself. 

(I could go on and on about this “celebration of life” for every story GRRM has written, but I’m restraining myself.) 

I don’t know what Jon and Dany (and Tyrion) need to do beyond the curtain of light to save the world. But I don’t think it’s something as simple as “We have to put this obsidian rock on the crystal throne” or something like that. I think whatever they have to do will be something more thematically important, something that is a celebration of humanity. 

When they go beyond the curtain of light, Jon/Dany is Vaes Tolorro. They’re an oasis of life, surrounded by death in the stronghold of the Others. Intimacy between them is the most life-affirming thing they could do, and that’s what the series is all about. 

I’m not saying Jon and Dany are gonna fuck to save the world but … I think Jon and Dany are gonna fuck to save the world. Or at least that’s going to be part of it. I’m not even particularly emotionally invested in this ship (where are the Lannisters?), but a Jon/Dany romance is simply the logical conclusion imo. 

“A blue flower grew from a chink in a wall of ice, and filled the air with sweetness… .”

“We are only human, and the gods have fashioned us for love. That is our great glory, and our great tragedy.”

I think Jon/Dany is something glorious, something transcendent, but it’s also something sad imo, because I think they’ll die doing whatever they have to do. 

(Also Tyrion needs to learn to love himself and forgive himself, and I think that’s also a part of saving the world, but that’s not what this post is about.)

******

You mention that you don’t think there’s enough time, but I have a couple things to say to that:

1) GRRM can build a whole world in two paragraphs. Despite the verbosity of ASOIAF, he can tell a whole complete, emotionally-satisfying story in 10 pages. Give him one Dany chapter, and I think we’re good to go.

2) I’ve said it before, and I’ll say it again: I think the place beyond the curtain of light is like the Fairy Realm and we don’t know the rules of such a place. Does time flow faster or slower there? Does time have any meaning at all there? We don’t know. If precisely nine months have to pass “under the Fairy Hill” while 9 minutes pass battling wights at Winterfell to make whatever needs to happen happen, then that’s what GRRM is gonna do. *shrug* We don’t know the rules. The rules of such a place are whatever GRRM will make them.

So I would say that there’s however much time GRRM needs to tell Jon and Dany’s story. 

As I’ve said elsewhere, I think the Iron Throne is going to be melted down, I think Jon and Dany are both going to die while saving the world (I will put money down on Dany dying, at the very least), and I think the Seven Kingdoms are going to break apart into separate kingdoms.

So I don’t think we need to worry about the “Afterward” for a Jon/Dany romance. It’s like if Frodo died in the lava when Barad-dûr collapsed in the movies. idk how it will play out tho in ASOIAF. Maybe after the “Fairy Hill” of the Others’ “collapses” for lack of a better term about what’s going to happen there, it spits mortally wounded Jon, Dany, and Tyrion out at a place of power, like the God’s Eye, idk, maybe it will be like GRRM’s Laren Dorr story. Anyways, maybe nine months have passed in the “Fairy Hill” while only a day has passed in Westeros, and Dany gives birth to a child before dying? Really, I don’t know, this is just me throwing wild suggestions out there. If GRRM really does make them have a kid, I definitely think both Jon and Dany are dying, but I’m really not sure if there is a Jon/Dany child in store in ASOIAF. 

I feel certain that Jon, Dany, and their potential kiddos are not going to be ruling Westeros in endgame. (I’ll put money on that one too. I’m gonna be rich as a Lannister if anybody wants to take me up here.) Any cute Jon/Dany+kids art/gifs I reblog is purely because I think it looks like a sweet and fluffy AU totally unlike anything GRRM will do. I really, really don’t think we’re ever gonna see any Jon/Dany family time, either together or one of them as a single-parent. (That’s what fanfic is for, friends.)

******

I could use this space to make a list and give you quotes to “prove” that “Jon likes THIS quality in a woman and THIS quality and THIS one” and then I could give you quotes proving how Dany possesses those qualities

but

1) I honestly don’t care. I’m mostly here for ASOIAF themes, and when I shake my magic 8-ball of ASOIAF themes and ask it, “Will Jon and Dany fall in love and bang?” it returns an answer of “Outlook Good.” 

2) GRRM is gonna change Jon to fit this, whether it’s the resurrection, or spending 40 days and nights in the deserts of Dorne, or whatever the fuck else is happening in twow

3) Jon’s headspace is not one I prefer to spend time in.

4) plenty of other people have probably already made such a list. (Feel free to link me, people!) Lots of people are way more emotionally invested in Jon/Dany, so if such a list isn’t already out there, I’m sure someone will write it. 

What I will use this space for is to mention GRRM’s short story The Way of Cross and Dragon. Because GRRM literally wrote and published a Bible AU with dragons and Judas in love with Jesus, let’s not forget that while considering Jon/Dany and the betrayal for love, I’m not even joking.

because Judas had loved Him so, Christ gave him a boon, an extended life […]. Once Dragon-King, once the friend of Christ, now he became only a blind traveler, outcast and friendless, wandering all the cold roads of the earth […] 

And Peter, the first Pope and ever his enemy, spread far and wide the tale of how Judas had sold Christ for thirty pieces of silver, until Judas dared not even use his true name. […] 

Christ promised that He would permit a few to remember who and what Judas had been, and that with the passage of centuries the news would spread, until finally Peter’s Lie was displaced and forgotten.

GRRM says he is a “recycler” of stories, and I’m interested to see what GRRM is going to do with Jon/Dany. I like the idea of it, and I’m totally expecting it to become canon during the apocalypse.

tbh this makes me sound more interested than I am, when in reality it’s like, I’m interested in Jon/Dany simply because I’m interested in the ending of ASOIAF. Because “Jon/Dany” and “ending” are synonymous in my mind. 

But I would literally forgo ADOS in exchange for more information about Casterly Rock and House Lannister. (A large amount of information, but still.) House Lannister for life, what can I say?

[joannalannister]

Beginnings

Below the cut is a selection of GRRM’s opening sentences (or opening paragraphs) from his various stories. This is not a comprehensive list, though it comes close.

The purpose of this compilation is to reflect on the compelling nature of GRRM’s writing. I would like to gain insight into why GRRM’s beginnings have such power to reel so many people in. I would also like to see if any patterns or commonalities emerge, though I am not sure if any exist. Finally, I hope such study may inspire me to improve my own writing.

Findings: GRRM’s beginnings vary: deaths, warnings that go unheeded, loves lost, arrivals of unexpected guests, lots and lots of things. I would say a death or three is GRRM’s most common opener, used multiple times throughout his career, but he opens with anything. 

Typically GRRM’s opening sentences have a signifier that we’re not in Kansas anymore, Toto. Sometimes this signifier is small and subtle and easily missed (see “The Glass Flower” below), while sometimes GRRM hits you over the head with a sledgehammer. His better intros imo are the more subtle ones that we’re not on Old Earth any longer, and the reveal that we’ve fallen into Faerie takes place more slowly, and we have to gather worldbuilding clues along the way. (Think of the low-magic of the first chapters of ASOIAF; compare it to the reader being bludgeoned with the “volcryn” descriptions in the opening paragraph of “Nightflyers” below. I prefer the former.) 

GRRM’s opening sentences are bold and evocative. They’re typically active rather than descriptive. They often tell a Hemmingway-esque short story all by themselves, and I think that’s a large part of what makes them compelling. (A lot of GRRM’s writing feels episodic, self-contained, such as when even a single chapter of ASOIAF tells a story all its own, such as Aeron’s TWOW chapter. Perhaps this is a vestige of GRRM’s career as a tv writer.) GRRM’s first sentence or first paragraph perfectly encapsulates what the story is going to be about (a poetic version of his thesis, if you will), but it leaves you asking all sorts of questions about what the story will entail, drawing you in. His beginnings are often strongly emotional: shame, anger, fear, despair, joy, love. 

There is a pattern to opening novels set in the Ice & Fire universe: time. The Dunk & Egg prequels begin with a season (spring in THK, summer in TSS & TMK). I would venture a guess that the first sentence of The She-Wolves of Winterfell will mention summer or autumn. (I would put my money on autumn, tbh.) (There may be reasons for this.)

The main ASOIAF novels begin with a time of day, although perhaps it would be more accurate to say they begin with a measure of light or shadow. The first sentence of the prologue of AGOT begins with a darkening of the world as night falls, but the true opening of the series -- Bran’s POV, the first POV -- is a dawning. (Insert rant here about how ASOIAF is not nihilist; dawnings symbolize hope in fantasy literature, and ASOIAF is above all hopeful.) 

The first sentence of ACOK is another dawn, while ASOS speaks of day, “grey and bitter cold,” as we move from the bright light of dawn to a cloudy day toward night. The FeastDance, originally intended to be a single volume, is a special case imo. The first sentence of ADWD refers to night, in keeping with the Battle for the Dawn drawing ever closer, but AFFC speaks only of dragons in its short first sentence. However, the prologue of AFFC occurs very late at night / very early in the morning, matching up to the time set by the ADWD prologue. I theorize that the opening sentence / paragraph of the prologue of TWOW will mention “night” or “darkness” in some way. 

I know GRRM says he’s a gardener rather than an architect, but if you reread his openings after you’ve finished the story, you can always see the ending right there at the beginning. GRRM's beginnings are usually excellent imo. But I think his endings are better. The endings are what stick the knife in me. I forget his beginnings -- they get folded smoothly into the story like butter into cookie dough, hence my need for this list -- but his endings haunt me. GRRM’s endings -- the ending of a character, the ending of a chapter, the ending of one of his novels -- his endings linger, long after the rest is gone. (“No, don’t, don’t cut my hair. Ned loves my hair.”) But its the beginnings that set it all up.

GRRM’s first sentences:

The Prophet came out of the South with a flag in his right hand and an axe handle in his left, to preach the creed of Americanism.

--And Death His Legacy

Outside the walls the Jaenshi children hung, a row of small gray-furred bodies still and motionless at the ends of long ropes. 

--And Seven Times Never Kill Man

The crossworlds had a thousand names. Human starcharts listed it as Grayrest, when they listed it at all—which was seldom, for it lay a decade’s journey inward from the realms of men. The Dan’lai named it Empty in their high, barking tongue. [...] But mostly it was the crossworlds to the beings who paused there briefly while they jumped from star to star.

--The Stone CIty

When he finally died, Shawn found to her shame that she could not even bury him.

--Bitterblooms

“Heresy,” he told me. The brackish waters of his pool sloshed gently.

--The Way of Cross and Dragon

There is a girl who goes between the worlds.

--The Lonely Songs of Laren Dorr  (this story was so beautiful, i love it so, it killed me)

Adara liked the winter best of all, for when the world grew cold the ice dragon came.

--The Ice Dragon

You can buy anything you might desire from Gray Alys. But it is better not to.

--In The Lost Lands

They came straight from the ore-fields that first time, Trager with the others, the older boys, the almost-men who worked their corpses next to his.

--Meathouse Man

Simon Kress lived alone in a sprawling manor house among dry, rocky hills fifty kilometers from the city. So, when he was called away unexpectedly on business, he had no neighbors he could conveniently impose on to take his pets. The carrion hawk was no problem; it roosted in the unused belfry and customarily fed itself anyway. The shambler Kress simply shooed outside and left to fend for itself; the little monster would gorge on slugs and birds and rock jocks. But the fish tank, stocked with genuine earth piranha, posed a difficulty. Finally Kress just threw a haunch of beef into the huge tank. The piranha could always eat one another if he were detained longer than expected. They’d done it before. It amused him.

--Sandkings

When Jesus of Nazareth hung dying on his cross, the volcryn passed within a light-year of his agony, headed outward. When the Fire Wars raged on Earth, the volcryn sailed near Old Poseidon, where the seas were still unnamed and unfished. By the time the stardrive had transformed the Federated Nations of Earth into the Federal Empire, the volcryn had moved into the fringes of Hrangan space.

--Nightflyers

The Pear-Shaped Man lives beneath the stairs. 

--The Pear-Shaped Man

On the high ramparts of Vargon, Colonel Bengt Anttonen stood alone and watched phantasms race across the ice.

--Under Siege

Willie smelled the blood a block away from her apartment.

--The Skin Trade

Once, when I was just a girl in the first flush of my true youth, a young boy gave me a glass flower as a token of his love.

--The Glass Flower

The spring rains had softened the ground, so Dunk had no trouble digging the grave.

--THK

In an iron cage at the crossroads, two dead men were rotting in the summer sun.

--TSS

A light summer rain was falling as Dunk and Egg took their leave of Stoney Sept.

--TMK

“We should start back,” Gared urged as the woods began to grow dark around them.

--A Game of Thrones

The morning had dawned clear and cold, with a crispness that hinted at the end of summer.

--A Game of Thrones (i included both the prologue and the opening chapter of agot because i love them both)

The comet’s tail spread across the dawn, a red slash that bled above the crags of Dragonstone like a wound in the pink and purple sky.

--A Clash of Kings

The day was grey and bitter cold, and the dogs would not take the scent.

--A Storm of Swords

Dragons,” said Mollander.

--A Feast for Crows

The night was rank with the smell of man.

--A Dance with Dragons