#ethical dog breeding

[workingflooff]

I am literally begging all the dog community internet people who freak the fuck out if they see like a mixed breed dog (usually a doodle) or a biologist that just mentions out crossing. To just please go read a journal article on genetic bottlenecking. Even just a scholarly publication of any kind at this point because they seem to not be able to digest that.

I have not been able to have a clear conversation with one of these people when I ask them for a source of their information because I provided mine. They gave me a TikTok video or a blog post from a poodle breeder as if that’s like the same as a scholarly peer reviewed publications like I provided. If they do provide me a study, it’s obvious they just read the title and a sentence of the abstract in the study. when I actually read the full said study and look at the data and conclusion it doesn’t support what they’re saying.

Please, for the love of God stop regurgitating inflammatory misinformation from a TikTok like it is the same as a scientific study and you know everything there is to know. (Hint: no one does)

Signed: a pissed ALD sd handler in the sciences 

P.S. also ethics are subjective no one dog breeding decision is “objectively ethical” because that doesn’t exist. The reason we argue over ethics is because it is not objective. The idea that you can just tick a set of objective simple boxes that can never change and be considered an ethical breeder is antithetical to the idea of biology and ethics. Everything is messy and things are supposed to change as we get better information. 



[asdpawprint]

Rescue Dogs as Service Dogs

My service dog is a rescue mutt. He is wonderful, always impressing me, and I'm endlessly proud of how much we've accomplished together.

And,

I am constantly worried about his future. His lifespan, his long-term health, how aging will affect him. How long will he remain able and willing to do his job? How long past that will his quality of life last?

My service dog is a rescue mutt, and I will never take that risk again.

I got lucky thousands of times over with this dog. With his temperament, his resilience, his stability, his oblivious friendliness. Just barely enough food drive and intelligence to learn the job. His forgiveness of my mistakes as I slowly developed knowledge and skill as a handler. His size, just barely reaching the lowest end of my preference. His soft, silky, beautiful fur.

He worries me, with his disproportionate structure. His tiny, fragile feet and nails. His complete lack of any angulation that would give his joints some shock absorption. His hips and stifles that seem to bother him sometimes.

His lineage is entirely unknown. How long did his parents live? His grandparents? Other extended family? How was their health? How badly did aging affect them? Did he get his structural issues from them? He must have. Did they pass on genetic issues too that we just haven't noticed yet?

My service dog is a rescue mutt, and I will never take that risk again.

How could I search and search and search for that one in a million temperament, knowing that I would still end up with all of these unknowns even in the best case scenario? How could I choose to risk so much, when a different choice can get me predictable traits and generations of known history instead?

I can choose to have generations of health testing behind my next dog. I can choose consistent temperaments all across the dog's family tree. I can choose a breed with instincts that fit the work I need my dog to do. I can choose long average lifespans. I can choose durable, functional structure. I can choose to have my dog set up for success from before he's even born. I can choose early socialization, and building good habits before bad habits have a chance to form.

I can choose not just to know generations of my dog's history, but also that it's a good history that sets my dog up for success in life.

I can choose to know that my next dog has all the traits I need and love in my current dog, plus more so I don't have to rely so much on luck. Instead of choosing to risk getting less of those traits and running out of luck.

My service dog is a rescue mutt, and I will never take that risk again.

[asdpawprint]

On the "understand in certain circumstances" thing... where do adopt-don't-shop people think the dogs for those circumstances would come from if they were the only dogs allowed to be bred?

What happens when it's something like service dog work, where a large percentage of even purpose bred litters fail out of training? Would those breeders be punished for breeding those puppies when they don't all succeed at their intended purpose?

In addition, I'm of the opinion that every dog deserves to be set up for success from the very beginning of their existence, with the best possible odds of long-term good health, a stable temperament, and predictable traits that allow them to be accurately matched to their forever family (and a lifelong safety net with their breeder in case of unpredictable changes in their family's circumstances). Ethically bred dogs have this, and it is wonderful.

Controversial opinion maybe but I dont think dogs need to be champion show dogs to be ethically bred

[lifeamongthekelpies]

**Sorry in advance for how long this is, and sorry if I went off topic a bit! I could talk about this kind of thing all day haha.

I used to have an ethically bred Belgian Shepherd Groenendael, who I sadly had to rehome due to my older dog not getting along with him, and I’m super passionate about dog breeding and genetics so I know a fair bit about this! I think the best place to start is to understand what you should expect from an ethical breeder, a breed can only be as good as the breeders allow it to be, so keep your standards for breeders high. An ethical breeder will be registered with ANKC/Dogs Australia, Dogz Online is a good place to find ANKC registered breeders.

You’ll want to ensure any particular breeder’s dogs are health tested, the specifics of the health tests will vary from breed to breed but it’s an absolute must when selecting an ethical breeder. No health testing = unethical. At an absolute minimum I would expect the parents to be fully DNA tested and hip scored, but the more tests the breeder does and the more thorough they are (eg; also test elbows, eyes, heart, thyroid, etc), the better. It’s a good idea to educate yourself about the breed(s) you’re interested in to ensure you know what breed specific conditions they may have, and ensure the breeders you’re interested in are testing for them. ANKC generally require testing through Orivet, but Orivet don’t actually test for all breed specific conditions. For example: Cerebellar Abiotrophy (CA) can now be tested for in Australian Kelpies but it must be done through a specific research lab, so a Kelpie breeder who only does Orivet DNA testing isn’t sufficient. Not many Kelpie breeders currently test their dogs for CA (show line breeders seem to be better for it though), and as it’s a recessive condition it can be carried for generations and then pop up “out of nowhere”. My (rescue) dog has the mild variant of CA and it’s awful, I would never risk buying a Kelpie puppy from a breeder who doesn’t test for this condition in addition to standard DNA testing.

Their dogs should be earning titles in the show ring, this shows that the dogs are meeting the breed standard in terms of conformation and temperament, and it shows that they are comfortable and confident in a busy and overstimulating environment. If the breeder also competes in dog sports like agility, etc, that’s a good sign too. I highly recommend you attend dog shows if possible to meet some of the breeds/dogs you’re interested in, it’s a great way to observe the dogs’ behaviour and temperament, and find out if they’re the right fit for you. It can also be good to explore pedigrees and research the lines you might end up being interested in, this way you can see how the dogs in particular lines have performed over time.

Ideally your selected breeder should be using Puppy Culture and Early Neurological Stimulation (ENS) methods when raising their litters, these methods and techniques are so beneficial to a puppy’s development that I personally wouldn’t buy a puppy from a breeder who doesn’t use them. Ask for photos or videos too, it’s very easy for a breeder to just say “yes, I do this” so make sure that they can provide evidence of it being done.

Ethical breeders should also have a good reason for producing each litter they have, and they should be able to give you a satisfactory answer if you ask what the reason for any particular mating/litter is. This is where your concerns around healthy litter =/= healthy gene pool should be answered, because a good ethical breeder is breeding with the benefit of the entire breed in mind.

An ethical breeder won’t have puppies available all the time, if they do it’s a red flag. You should generally expect to be waiting a while for a puppy, not all breeders have waiting lists (some breeds are less popular than others), but it’s not uncommon to be put on a waiting list once you’re approved by the breeder as suitable for a puppy.

I know this is a lot (I could write so much more!) and it might make the process seem daunting, but it’s absolutely worth all the effort to get a well bred dog.

Question about dog breeding/breeds, if you’re ok with answering:

I’m a would-be dog owner, never had one before, and I really want to get a companion dog from a breeder/group that is ethical and aims to produce healthy litters, but… I also understand that healthy litter =/= healthy gene pool, and it would be great to support breeding efforts that promote the welfare of the breed as a whole rather than the specific animals they sell. How the HECK do I identify breeders that promote ethical breeding for both healthy animals and population diversity? (I live in Australia, not sure if that makes this harder to answer or not)

(I mean ideally I’d adopt a rescue but there are pros and cons to that and, as a newbie, I’m not going to take on an animal I can’t adequately care for. And also I can never find rescue dogs of the breeds that work for my lifestyle)

So I don't know Australia as well as some other folks (@farm-paws?), but I do know that the best way to figure this out is to find out where breeders are talking to one another and listen to the things they say. The second best thing to do is to just ask breeders producing dogs you like: how do you breed with an eye towards producing the dogs you want, and how do you breed with an eye towards making the whole breed better?

The thing about this question is that there's lots of ways to answer it, but how a breeder answers that question given your breed's context will help you figure out how much they're thinking about each. And it does mean thinking very clearly about things you value. Any person trying to achieve a goal with limited resources, which describes many passionate breeders, is going to have to make trade offs based on resource limits. Increase the genetic diversity of the population as a whole, or win big at a given sport?

Let me get you some examples under the cut.

Here are a couple of examples of what I think of as pretty nice kennels I would be happy to consider approaching for a dog, if they bred dogs of a type I currently want to own and I wanted another dog. (Some do, some don't, and I won't have space in the inn for several years yet anyway.) They are unfortunately American--without knowing your breed of choice it's hard to figure out how to navigate the Australian scene--but most of the tips should carry over okay. Because Dog Culture can sometimes be really black and white and mistake cultural markers for meaningful ethical distinctions, I'm going to try and share a wide range of perspectives, orientations, and viewpoints here from breeders who think about long term breed improvement.

Wayout ACDs: This post on the importance of collecting and storing semen from older, sometimes long dead dogs is a great green flag that this breeder thinks deeply about the long term future of the whole population--especially given her emphasis on these older dogs who might not have contributed heavily to the gene pool in their younger, living days. Collected semen from old dogs who aren't closely related to younger dogs can be a great way to help broaden and revitalize a larger population.

Border City Bullies, coming from a breed with a relatively low incidence of health testing and some big cultural variations, has a ton of resources available on how health testing works, what to do about it, and how to responsibly move forward even if a dog fails a test. The breeder here clearly feels very strongly about teaching and encouraging other American Bully breeders to start monitoring longer term health as a breeding goal and fostering a community of breeders who want to work with each other to make the dogs healthier. I love this approach. Especially when population bottlenecks are not a major problem but health monitoring is, building a better breed community is also a signal of someone who is thinking about their breed over the very long term.

Woodpont Beagles. I really like this breeder as an example of someone who keeps his dogs differently to mine, but who has firm standards for their comfort and care nevertheless. I also admire this breeder's ability to assess two "camps" in his breed that don't communicate much and do his best to take the best from each perspective. Finally I really like the emphasis on the successes and failures of breeders from the past: a good vision for the future often includes a deep knowledge about how we got to the present.

The Functional Dog Collective is probably a good place to check on, even if it's heavily North America based; my understanding/experience is that while there is certainly a lot of disagreement within the broader community of breeders, that's a spot where anyone with an interest in long term breeding for health in particular is going to pop up. The Institute for Canine Biology is another good place to look around for people in your breed of choice who are broadly interested in evidence-based approaches to more healthy breeding, too.

[beansnpeets]

I want so badly to support rescues, but why do they all have to be so #ad*ptd*ntsh*p??? Like please let me fucking support you without having to hear that you don't think my purebred dog should exist and that all purebred animals are bad and breeders are all evil!!!! We can fucking coexist! It doesn't have to be like this!

[doglover43]

the breeding of doodles is not ethical— point blank.

the argument that doodle breeding should/shouldn’t exist has been a fairly recent one only coming to light as of the early 2000s, with the American Kennel Club (AKC) officially blacklisting such a breed from existing on record— rightfully so

the breeding of doodles has been, and continues to be, ethically questionable and often shady in nature. the industry itself comes from a background of backyard breeding, puppy mills, and often incessant interbreeding. unsurprisingly, the harm that has been done to these dogs has not only exposed them to have numerous physical problems (progressive retinal atrophy, otitis media, epilepsy, etc..) but long histories of mental ones as well. the term “doodle mania” describing the often zoochosis level psychopathy doodles may experience later in life.

by continuing to buy and breed such dogs, investors are unknowingly contributing to a problem that results in their dogs living a life of pain and confusion, often cutting their lifespan short when compared to other mid-sized breeds.

while many individuals in defense of this ‘breed’ may argue that owning such a dog provides a family with a hypoallergenic solution to potential health issues, this statement completely disregards other breeds that are both hypoallergenic and ethically bred such as the poodle (pictured above). additionally, those looking for a dog of similar characteristics to doodles, have no excuse in not investing in ethically bred dogs of a similar physical standard (briard, old english sheepdog, golden retriever, lagotto romagnolo pictured above).

owning a specific dog breed should never be a trend, or some sort of statement. it requires knowledge and an understanding for all aspects of the animal one intends on buying. by looking for alternative breeds to buy instead of doodles, not only are you supporting ethically bred dogs, but potentially saving another from a life of turmoil.

[hazard-and-friends]

excited for k'seil being old enough to Do Things With bc the local aussie FB group is overrun with "all tailed aussies come from Bad Breeders because GOOD breeders think the standard was handed down from god on sinai"

[apostate-in-an-alcove]

Dog people who are obsessed with pedigree and bloodlines in their dogs give off real 'white supremacist with a passion for eugenics' vibes.

[eroticcannibal]

I 100% judge ppl on how they probably treat disabled people by how they treat disabled animals

[asdpawprint]

I learned the hard way so you don't have to!

(I wish I could've read this post 3 years ago)

Ok, here we go, a (very incomplete) list of Things to Know When Buying a Dog From a Breeder:

1. Don't just search Google or Facebook for "[insert breed here] near me"! This is almost guaranteed to result in puppy mills and otherwise irresponsible breeders. Instead, Google "[insert breed here] national breed club" instead and look on their breeder directory. (This should be the breed specific club, not AKC.) That at least narrows it down to people who agree to the club's code of ethics, instead of just who's best at marketing and advertisements.

2. Verify health test results on ofa.org, don't just take the breeder's word for it! People lie on the internet! OFA is a public database; if the test result isn't there, that usually means the test wasn't done or they chose to hide the result on purpose. (Which health tests to look for is another subject you can learn on the breed club website!)

3. Following the breed standard is good and important! Even when it comes to coat color! Some colors have health issues connected to them (*cough* silver labs *cough*). The breed standard (yet another subject you can learn about on the breed club website) is how we get consistent breed traits. That predictability is the whole reason we want purebred dogs in the first place! I highly recommend reading the breed standard to make sure it describes the kind of dog you want to live with, and so you can recognize and avoid major deviations from it.

[spywitch]

Theres a hilarious hypocrisy I notice of pibble rescue people who clutch their pearls over ear cropping dogs, who also go “awwww!” and absolutely LOVE when they see a big bully with cropped ears. They think they’re so cute. Like maybe they react that way bc of their savior complex and they feel pity for the poooooor “abused” pitty, but they will never admit its also cuz they LIKE the way cropped ears look 😂

[snobgoblin]

me choosing blorbos

[kangals]

I once saw a bernese mountain dog breeder say that flea/heartworm/ect medications DIRECTLY caused hip issues in the breed because it 'isnt natural'

people will go out of their way to blame literally anything on preventatives. seizures? its from the preventative. hip dysplasia? preventatives. dog fell down the stairs and broke its leg? preventatives.

[wandering-wolf23]

Gonna say that I really don't get the kneejerk doodle hate. Are most of them well bred? No, not really (health testing, people. We can do that now). But neither are the vast majority of Golden Retrievers or Labs.

Is it possible to get a healthy doodle? Yeah. I know two of them. They are 12 y/o Cavapoos who belong to a person who wanted traits from both breeds, but not those two dogs. She's happy with what she got. They have fewer health issues at 12 than my Golden Retriever (registered, from solid lines, but still has health problems) and her (registered, from health tested parents) Italian Greyhound. Did she have to train her dogs? Yes. Are they a pain in the ass to groom? Also yes.

But so is my Golden. So was the German Shepherd my aunt had before. My sister has a Shih Tzu/Chihuahua mix that's basically a Shih Tzu with a much shorter coat. Also a nice dog. Did she need to be trained? Yes. Does she have a bit of a PITA coat? Also yes.

I actually wonder how much of the doodle stuff comes from stupid people owning dogs. The same person who has a fat husky with a matted coat and untrimmed nails is going to do the same with a doodle. Their issue right now is that they're a trendy mix and bad breeders are going for quantity over quality.

I will say that I'm not impressed with my purebred, registered Golden. She's allergic to both grain and chicken, along with other issues, and that makes caring for her hard. I can read a pedigree and I got her from a good breeder who has supported me through the struggle with my dog. She's a good dog, but I don't know if I'm going down the purebred route again. It just may not be right for me.

[darkwood-sleddog]

“Ethical breeders have too many expectations placed on them for anybody to want to do it.” *proceeds to explain how expectations should be lowered.

How about no.

[searchingwardrobes]

DOG LOVERS! Please, please do NOT buy a "blue," "silver," "Isabella" or "hairless" dachshund. These are not "rare" coats, these are dogs suffering from a disease called color dilution alopecia. It leads to hair loss and painful skin rashes, lesions, and sores. There's no cure.

Reputable breeders will not breed a dog with cda. Sadly, this is becoming a new, trendy "designer" dog because people think the blue-coated puppies are cute and unique. You can find these puppies for sale online for hundreds of dollars more than a dachshund with a standard coat.

Please spread the word! No puppies should be bred to suffer just for a trend.

You can read more about it here.