#dsmp misogyny

[emi-writings]

Can I just say I am so sick and tired of reading fics where Kristin is dead?

Like, the writer usually wants justification for Philza being Techno, Tommy and Wilbur's father without adoption or fostering...

But they also want that prime Fridge Angst.

Because after all, everyone in the year 2023 knows that fridging women is the best way to make people like your works.

It totally doesn't instantly piss me off every time one of these men whine and bitch about how their mother's/wife's death affects them without talking about her like a person!

It's not like adding Kristin in could actually add in some variety to the most populated relationship dynamic in all of MCYT, some of which are starting to sound a little samey.

Especially not after she officially became canon in the lore, interacting with other characters and everything!

[dykecubes]

something else I wanted to point out in my post abt misogyny behind the scenes on the dsmp is how, when Niki first came forward very shortly after the dsmp ended to say there was a lot of misogyny from major male ccs behind the scenes, dt fans quickly accepted this as true because she didn't mention any names so it was easy to point fingers at wilbur or other men on the server and pretend her allegation didn't also very much implicate the dt, now that Connor, Sophie, Andi, and others have backed up Niki's claims of misogyny and confirmed that the dt were very much perpetrators of it as well they've suddenly stopped believing her

like idk I feel like nobody has mentioned Niki being basically the first to come out about the misogyny behind the scenes at all and how much of what she said lines up with what Connor said at the beginning of his stream, I just feel like it highlights the hypocrisy and contradictions from dt fans trying to justify why their faves couldn't possibly be perpetrators of misogyny

[fernlessbastard]

You guys aren't ready for the conversation of how Quackity sincerely loves bottoming

I'm not at all saying he wants to always bottom, I'd say he still prefers topping most of the time, but whenever he's down to get something up his ass, he's DOWN to get something up his ass, if you know what I mean

(the switching applies to position only, tho. I sincerely can't see him genuinely enjoying subbing, and neither can I see Wilbur actually domming unless they're both being influenced by years of internalised homophobia and patriarchy and all that bullshit, but even then it's just cringe and they're just both pretending it's not cause it's easier that way (and the sex itself isn't like, actively bad, not to mention that it provides some degree of an emotional connection which they both desperately crave), plus it's still basically vanilla just with a little bit of dirty talk - that's how i see them in Pogtopia (with Q bottoming - if you want another huge post on their Pogtopia dynamic let me know cause I have so many thoughts on it and how their traumas affected them and their relationship and how complicated it all was))

That being said, man's 10000% intensely fucking traumatised

(tw personal hc and following the logical path from canon implications idfk)(also exaggeration) like, if he were ACTIVELY evil and had ZERO (even personal) moral code, then the amount of anger he feels towards Schlatt for taking away the enjoyment of it is probably enough to ignore all ethics and torture Dream so utterly unimaginably he ends up violating entirety of the Geneva convention, and then having 50 new ones written specifically to condemn his actions, just to break every single one of those as well on the way, just so that Dream gives him the revival book so that he can re-kill Schlatt with his own hands

Also he absolutely re-traumatised himself with Karl and Sapnap cause he was for sure like "I shouldn't be having an intense panic attack right now, I'm going to push all my energy into pretending that everything's ok and that I don't want to cry and scream and rip my skin off. I'm just being silly and dramatic anyway ha ha" which just resulted in them unknowingly hurting him all over again. I take no criticism. Q's got MASSIVE communication issues when it comes to validating his feelings and Karl and Sapnap are "everything's fine"-ing way too much on the daily. And whole Quackity should work on his issues, it IS a partner's job to at least try to check up on the other(s) (and vice versa), and Karl and Sapnap clearly always preferred to ignore any hints that something might be wrong as a general life rule. The relationship was immaturely focused on "fun and good vibes" from the very start, so any bad topic obviously felt out of place. It started off with lack of communication and it died cause of it too.

That's also actually why I will always firmly stand by the fact that Wilbur (during las Nevadas era) is the only person with whom he could ever heal, btw (yes, including Charlie as a hypothetical romantic interest). Cause Schlatt's abusive, Karl and Sapnap "deserve better" in his eyes (so he pretends to be fine until shit hits the fan and everything falls apart)(that also applies to his hypothetical relationship with Charlie). But with Wilbur there's enough distance to feel safe and call out his bullshit without retaliation in form of abuse, and on the other hand he doesn't care to pretend to be perfect - hell, he probably purposefully shoves his issues onto the guy cause he's like "you think you're so strong and stubborn you can handle me??? You think???? Think again." (Wilbur does the same btw). They're purposefully trying to push each other away, destroy the "relationship", show each other just how fucked up they are. They're psycho-competitive. Even being the first one to be "too much" and get abandoned turns into a competition.

But it backfires. They bond. They're real with each other. They're stubborn, they're determined enough to stay just long enough to see each other's walls crack. And once they do, the feelings are quick to spill. They're each other's only people to be GENUINELY themselves with - no masks, no manipulation, no bullshit. Just themselves. And that's the first, CRUCIAL step to developing a healthy relationship (or at least healthier than all their other relationships).

So with Wilbur he probably only tries to bottom either once he ACTUALLY begins to feel like he could maybe try to reclaim it, or even if he tries it in a self-destructive way, (considering their history+patriarchy and shit) Wilbur'd know and care enough to realise Q's just trying to hurt himself. And as shitty as Wilbur can be sometimes, he's not a bad person - he'd stop Q if things'd go too far, or give him (at least a temporary) safe space to safely go through a breakdown without hurting himself like that. He wouldn't take advantage of such a low moment, and he would know enough to recognise it's a low moment in the first place.

Anyway once they figure all that out and Quackity's genuinely comfortable with it again, it's for sure not uncommon for him to enjoy some nice aggressive pounding, all the while having one hand in Wilbur's hair, pulling it to hold him close, and the other hand on Wilbur's neck, lightly choking him as they're intensely making out

All that to say Q's a massive sadist but he's also a huge massochist and he'll absolutely have Wilbur on a nice leash and call him a pathetic, desperate, horny dog or something like that as the man's (purposefully) sloppily thrusting in and out of him, causing the most "carnage" he can (Wilbur will be double fisting Quackity and Quackity will be just looking at him unfazed like "your hands are small" (they're not)/hj)

Oh btw to clarify [TW ok more direct talk of SA so please be careful and take care of yourselves]- yes, I'm absolutely saying Q got repeatedly SA'd by Schlatt throughout their relationship. The guy was canonically generally verbally and physically abusive, AND basically the whole point of his character is that he's like, the epitome of everything wrong with society. Add to that the sexual comments which were constantly used to demean, insult, and objectify Q, as well as Quackity's intense, palpitable discomfort which noticeably grows each time the topic comes up when they meet after Schlatt's death during Las Nevdas era, it's a pretty safe bet to assume Schlatt didn't stop at "just" verbal and physical violence. Sexual violence is almost a guarantee when you consider all that context - it's hardly even "reading between the lines". And you can't tell me that in our society that views being penetrated during sex as something negative, especially for men, while viewing penetrating someone as an act of "conquering" and "winning" and all that a character who's supposed to embody as many of this world's faults as possible wouldn't shove his dick where it's not wanted, even just purely to prove he can despite lack of consent.

[proudfreakmetarusonikku]

intensely funny to see people freaking out at tommy mentioning the dsmp like I don’t even watch him much lately but he takes any opportunity to bring it up he fucking loves that server and c!tommy y'all literally haven’t watched a single one of his videos ever in your life.

[hopalongfairywren]

Why does nobody draw c!Hannah or Niki or Puffy or Tina with scars. Like these women lived through WARS. Niki was in multiple. Hannah was fucking blown up. Where are her burn scars anything besides maybe mildly ripped wings. Puffy was a pirate and has survived multiple assassination attempts. I know you guys can draw scars you draw them on your male faves alllll the time. The women don't need perfect unblemished skin guys. You can give them scars or acne or something.

[hopalongfairywrens]

The misogyny in this fandom is so awful can we talk more about that actually

[faerygardens]

idk the fact that hermitcraft, empires, the life series, and the qsmp can all exist not only without incredibly prevalent misogyny problems but with the women on these servers being treated with the same amount of adoration by the fans as the men despite being outnumbered by men on all of them tells me that maybe the misogyny problem on the dsmp had absolutely nothing to do with how many women were on the server but with how they were treated both on and off camera

like i will always be critical of the fact that there is a severe lack of representation for both women and poc within the mcyt community but if you try to approach that problem the way the dsmp did-- just adding a shit ton of them to the server but not actually making an effort to include them in anything and ignoring their attempts to be included-- of course theres gonna be a fucking problem with the way they’re treated by the fans and of course that’s not going to help with the fight for more inclusion

[aishabellasbigblogofeverything]

that post u made is literally me every day like i do not need to be reminded of my dsmp phase??? the sins of my youth fr

frfr

[justanisabelakinnie]

💀

some people act like youre waterboarding them if you want to talk about women instead of men

[emi-writings]

Some suggestions for the “DSMP-Stop-Hating-Women” Fanfic Test:

If the fic contains SBI:

Kristin must be included as a member.

Kristin cannot have noticeably less focus than the majority of the members (e.g. if the fic mostly focuses on crimeboys, then Kristin having as much focus as Phil and Techno, but less than Wilbur and Tommy is fine. Kristin only appearing once throughout the fic, while everyone else appears at least three times is not fine).

Kristin must be physically there, must have at least as much impact on the plot as the majority of members, and cannot be killed off for the sake of the male characters being sad for a bit or to justify neglectful/unhealthy actions from the male character.

Other requirements regardless of if the fic contains SBI or not:

 You cannot kill off more female characters than male characters, and both male and female characters must have their deaths treated with equal respect.

There must be more than one female character that is at least somewhat important to the plot.

At least two female characters included should talk with each other. It doesn’t have to be alone, but they should at least speak directly to each other at least once.

The reader should be able to name at least three things related to interests, goals, or personality (any combination or just one of those categories is fine) about the female character in your fic. Knowledge that comes from canon should not be counted if it is not displayed in your fic.

[dykecubes]

I just find it interesting that a multiple women on the dsmp have come forward about facing misogyny behind the scenes and talked very frequently about being ignored or not being supported by the male content creators on the server but it wasn’t until Connor backed up their allegations of misogyny that dream started freaking out about it and dream fans decided that this misogyny didn’t actually happen

[proudfreakmetarusonikku]

like tbh all the dsmp teens r homestuck coded. c!ranboo is john c!purpled is rose c!tommy is dave c!tubbo is jade. like do u see my vision.

[hopalongfairywren]

WHAT?

[hopalongfairywren]

The way c!Awesamfam is made for c!Tommy's sake becomes abundant once you take into account every other character's lore and see how it reframes the sexist abuse c!Sam put Hannah through as lighthearted paternal frustration. Or just omits it in general. I know inniters love dunking on c!Dream apologists for defending abuse but there's another whole ass green man abuser character who funnily enough is praised or ignored. Funny that.

[rat-rosemary]

You asked for examples where Dream was being mysogenistic.

First I'm going to quickly point out the same thing Tubbo did. Every single accusation Dream slung at a guy that wasn't a strange "example" that he used Tubbo for was really well built up and based on actual things that happened or that Dream at least claimed certainly happened.

Every single accusation he aimed at a woman, that wasn't the case. He accused HannahxxRose of starting a rumour despite not being certain in the slightest. He claimed Aimsey was "behind" the Caiti thing despite having no proof or reason to believe that.

Then I'm just going to point out the fact that he never once addressed the rampant misogyny in the DSMP fandom, including when his own fans absolutely went insane insulting Niki Nihachu because she was frustrated with her own performance in MCC while she was on Dreams team. (I should note, both Tommy and Tubbo HAVE addressed the misogyny in the fandom multiple times)

But there's more you mentioned, for example that you don't believe he's manipulative. During his stream, Dream cut over every single time Tubbo gave him the benefit of the doubt, defended Dream, or said that he didn't agree with Tommy's words. He actively skipped all those segments and then lied about what Tubbo said there. He then only showed the moments where Tubbo was critical of Dream without the context of WHY Tubbo said Dream was in the wrong, and Dream played the victim. Then he continued to undermine all of Tubbo's points by saying he was sure Tubbo only thought that because he was mislead by "Tommy or the brighton friend group" (Tubbo assumed it was Harry at first Dream was aiming at, but considering the earlier mentioned accusations at Aimsey, I think it might've been them that Dream was blaming). These are the most basic manipulative framing tactics that exist; cutting people's words out of context, and then use that lack of context to make it seem like they have no basis and they don't know what they're talking about.

He also managed to perfectly skip every part where Tubbo did say he wasn't sure/it was speculation, and then showed those parts as if Tubbo was sure and was speaking with his full chest. Again; taking words out of context to spin a tale in which Dream was the only victim and Tubbo was attacking him.

Then on to the 3rd and final topic; the Cantu stuff. Tubbo actually specifically made a whole point about that it was not okay that Cantu did that stuff, (and gave corrections later where needed; he was unsure about how the video had gotten publicized but he immediately apologized for not fully understanding the situation once he got context and gave his revised opinion based on his new information) but how reclaiming slurs worked, and he also very specifically said something along the lines of "I don't think anyone in the brighton friend group celebrated Cantu saying a slur to you. I don't think that happened. If it did, and I missed it, it probably wasn't them celebrating that you got called a slur, but just that they hate you."

Dream once again pulled that out of context and only showed the "they hate you part" and not the entire section before that where Tubbo specifically said he was pretty sure that never happened, but he was just giving Dream the benefit of the doubt and that he could've missed something.

This all is why people consider him manipulative. He takes out context, talks around the context with irrelevant details for ages, and then barely addressed the actual point with completely misleading framing. The entire time. Every time.

Wow. Okay anon I'm not sure I want so answer that, but I am thinking about it. Let me just say first and foremost.

You are literally wrong about both of your first points. Dream brought up Hannah because he confused her with someone else, in the exact same way he confused Ludwig for someone else in the same stream.

What he says about Aimsey is very specifically that he had a call with Tubbo, and Tubbo said that he didn't like Dream because when Aimsey asked him about the accusations they were banned from the discord. This did not happen. Dream then says that he thought this meant Aimsey was the one spreading rumors, but he found out that wasn't the case when Aimsey later reached out to talk about it and told Dream they didn't know where the rumor had come from.

He calls out how he can also have misconceptions about other creators based on assumptions, and this is a problem that affects community at large, not just himself.

Caiti was not brought up at any moment during this stream. Please do not try to bring her up as a sacrificial lamb for your point, she deserves better then that.

Neither or these things are misogynistic. Even if he had accused Hannah with more then a passing mention it would not be misogynistic, it would just be wrong. Referencing a woman or and afab person is not misogynistic. Hannah and Aimsey were not referenced any different then any of the male creators that were mentioned in the same stream.

I cannot, physically, go back and scour every single live, video, tweet and interview to see if Dream ever mentioned the misogyny in the fandom or larger streaming community during the dsmp, because I do not remember whether or not it happened. I'll be honest, you comparing Tommy, who made jokes about drugging and raping women, as a good example is already enough.

I did not watch Tubbo's stream. I'm being completely honest when I say that, that's why I haven't commented on it, because at no point I opened this for a discussion or a moderation, I opened it as a check for anyone who couldn't or wouldn't watch Dream's original stream.

Manipulation is communication. There is no way to communicate with someone else without manipulating them. You can not like that Dream went through Tubbo's stream in clips instead of playing all of it and reacting to it on a more classic form. This does not make Dream evil or a mastermind who's trying to fool you, this makes it so you did not like the way he communicated. That is a fair criticism to have.

As a more lighthearted note, I will say that if we got a 3 hour stream out of those clips then Dream would still be streaming now if he had played the whole thing /j

What Tubbo said is equally fucked up, even he he says he's unsure whether or not his friends were celebrating it. Because the point Dream was making was not about them, but about how the internet at large cheered for him being assaulted. "They celebrated because they hate you" is still equally wrong.

Because what is being said is that the action doesn't matter. It does not matter if Cantu assaulted him because I do not like him. This is a bad thing to belive. That violence is righteous because it is against an other.

If I name absolutely any group or people who this has been used against we would get into hate crimes. I cannot be more serious when I say that "Violence against the Other is justified because they are Bad and we are Good" is just facism. This is what Tubbo is implying here, not against his friend group but about the wider internet who celebrated a hate crime. The longer context does not change what is being said.

I am sorry anon, but when we have the context that this is Dream speaking, it makes a lot of sense that he would try to give as much context as possible. It's not evil or manipulative of him to speak a certain way, trying to frame his explanations nothing but manipulation is disingenuous.

[hopalongfairywren]

'woman coding' as a concept ties in the artificial oppression of all women and implies that to be a woman means you automatically suffer (for being women), when really it is only so because of the patriarchy and the mostly men who uphold it make it that way. c!Dream is a man. A violent controlling one at that. If he was a woman he would not be treated with such apologia, and the actual suffering he endured would be far more sexualized and normalized.

Since we are talking about it can I also finally say the cdream is woman coded bc he is Misunderstood and Targeted by Hate + other excuses (ie with the pregnancy hcs too) is just deeply misogynistic? You'll do anything ANYTHING to see a character as apologetic even if he is a written villain when for actual women and genderqueer characters (like aimsey and eret) you will critique harsher and hate with poor excuses covering up the misogyny. Also let's talk about the reasons people say cdream was woman coded were misogynistic reasons to view someone as a woman.

Cdream is not woman coded because he's hated by the server. Cdream is a character whose canonically a villain who wanted total server control who abused, stalked, and harmed many characters all while dedicating his life to lab experiments in a quest to become a god and find immortality played by a cc who is a cis man (who also gets "woman coded") who utilized his character primarily for damage control with an inability to let him lose as a writer.

The end, unpack your misogyny. Feel free to add on/correct