#don't involve me in discourse lol

[depodraws]

Recent Commission :)

[whenastrofell]

Howdy! I'm Astrophel, and this is my blog!

He/she, aroace, and obsessed with Fugo from JJBA. I speak English and some Spanish, but I'm out of practice atm.

I mainly post about JJBA (and mainly part five at that), but I also like D4DJ: Groovy Mix, goldfish (the animals), and some other fandoms I probably won't bring up as often.

I also write and draw, but that probably won't wind up on this account.

I would love to hear about anyone's headcanon, AU, ship, or interpretation of a character :)

[willow-lark]

my life got so much better when i made the decision to just fucking scroll every single time i see discourse on my dash. like i really don't give a shit actually!! i don't care. like everybody's gonna have different takes on things and sometimes i think those takes are so incredibly stupid but you know what!! i just don't care what they have to say. why would i waste my time on something that's just going to make me roll my eyes?

[skinsort]

Hello, I've been thinking about code and selling code and sharing code in the rpc because someone posed the question to me of what I'd want to happen if someone was heavily editing a skin I sold, and to be honest, my first instinct was 'take my name off it'. That was met with some surprise, but let me explain why.

Code, to me, is a largely democratic landscape. If you want to learn, hundreds of thousands of people and websites have come together to teach you. Masses of people share open source work on codepen, stack overflow etc. Code as a skill is like assembling an especially abstract puzzle where you can only think about the pieces, not really see them. But most puzzles have similar strategies to solve- start with the corner pieces, then the edges, then the most recognizable patterns etc etc etc working your way down to the more and more difficult details. Most of code- most of my job writing code- involves minimizing the amount of time working on those shared strategies so we can have more time to work on the the interesting bits, the hard bits. the bits that make the site we're working on unique and useful. Frankly, jcink is the easy part of code, by and large. Your data is already structured and provided to you in a very particular way. It is inefficiently, but largely documented. Many other people have solved all the problems you are likely to have trying to build a skin. Skinning is html and css for the vast majority of items. It is the easy stuff. If I sell code, that code is now the property of the person I sold it to. It is not shareable or redistributable. You can't take my code and resell it as your own, but as far as I'm concerned you can do whatever you want with it. If I solved problems that might otherwise feel difficult (accessibility and responsiveness come to mind) cool. You can solve the easy ones, like styling and colors and fonts you like. You can add or subtract things that vibe with what you want that code to do. Once it is sold, it is yours to do with what you like when it comes to personal use. This is true of almost all coding contracts that exist in the entire world. If it weren't, no one would ever hire external contractors to do any work for their company, and I can tell you now, even companies which could fully afford to do all their tech in house absolutely do not in 99% of cases if their business isn't selling their own tech. The rule is generally- you may do anything you like with this, except resell it to someone else. So why take my name off it? I don't endorse how other people code. Even in my professional life, I've taken projects off my portfolio because the client took a project I worked on and broke it (imo), often with other professional developers doing the breaking. If a prospective employer were to go look at it, I'd be embarrassed by what it looks like today. Tell me why I (and my team) created a website that was fully responsive, and they went back to make it adaptive in the year of our lord 2022 because they preferred to have pixel perfect views at 3 specific breakpoints rather than a responsive site. I don't know, it's infuriating. I can't cite that project as an example of my work anymore, because it isn't. I would never leave a site in that state.

So, my first instinct with the idea of people using a skin i sell them as a base is 'take my name off it.' I don't want to be associated if responsive/accessible features are lost due to others working on a skin I wrote. But at the same time, where is the line between using something as a base, and editing a few small features? I certainly don't want to be an arbiter of that, or have to field questions or navigate feelings about it. In fact, personally I would not feel upset at all if someone used a paid for skin as a base, and inviting that kind of discussion is the only way I possibly could get upset since people have weird attitudes about a lot of this stuff. So I think the more practical standard is just to put credit, but make it explicit that the work has been heavily altered. Don't resell or redistribute, and you're golden, imo. Anyway, those are my feelings as someone who writes code for a living. I'm interested to hear counterpoints - constructively of course.

[alexwilltellyouthings]

Ok I have so many thoughts about painland ending up canon or not and I. Just.

Listen I AGREE that their bond goes beyond being romantic or not. It's obvious, it's beautiful, I love it and I love them and their friendship and I truly do think it is important that media has this kind of relationship portrayed.

But.

But.

I would be lying if I said I wouldn't be disappointed if it doesn't turn romantic. It involves a lot of things.

1: I want Edwin to have that. He'll still be happy without it, yes, but god can't he have that? He's been through so much. He had a speedrun through his sexuality issues and confessed in hell. Like wtf. Can't he have that???

2. Bisexual Charles would actually be so important to me. And yeah he can be bi and not in love with Edwin but come on lol. The thing is, there's not many bi men in media. Even less bi men figuring out their bisexuality. Even less bi men figuring out their sexuality when they were raised in the 80s and knowing their best friend is in love. Do you see how many layers exist here? How amazing his story could be? Charles has so much we still don't know about him. And yes, I would like that one of those things could be something I relate to. Besides trauma. Call me selfish. And like he's so bisexual coded it would be offensive for him to be straight I'm sorry.

3. They exist in other universes. Let them be platonic there. Let them be romantic this one time.

4. I know falling in love with a straight person is a very common story and I don't think it's wrong for it to happen in a show, but honestly, it's not what I sign up for when I'm watching queer stuff. Think Our Flag Means Death. It probably changed my brain chemistry because anything less than that gets really hard to swallow. I know, we all have queerbaiting trauma, and I know this wouldn't be the case, and it never claimed to be something as queer as OFMD. But I got so attached that... Well, I wouldn't stop watching if this happens, but it wouldn't sit well with me. It's a bitter feeling, you know?

5. They didn't have anything be explicit, but come on, they did set us up. Charles got jealous at Monty, and only Monty, for that matter. I wouldn't say his thing with the Cat King is necessarily jealousy, more like protectiveness, but that can be disputable. And both George and Jayden said more than once that Charles' response to the confession let things open. So I mean if that door wasn't closed, then please don't close it now! The road until things happen can be long, dramatic, tortuous, whatever, there's many ways to tell a love story. But if I'm sitting for it, then I don't want to get shot in the face later on (unless it's for plot reasons which ok).

6. Have I mentioned that bisexual Charles

Anyway I feel kinda bad for wishing so much they get romantic because I see and agree with the whole platonic discourse. But yeah those are all the reasons why I can't stop myself. Have a good day everyone

[mermaidsirennikita]

Sadly, the Wuthering Heights furor has also led to people (many of whom, let us be real, simply dislike the book or otherwise only think of it when it's brought up) to discourse about the content of the novel versus the wrongness of Emerald Fennell's choices with regards to the movie, which of course, has opened up the classic "IT'S NOT A ROMANCE! IT'S NOT A LOVE STORY! BAD PEOPLE! HATE STORY!"

... Which is... also a bad take.

First off, to be very clear, "Romance" is not inherently "genre romance", which is the thing I blog a lot about that was solidified in the latter half of the twentieth century (and which, no doubt, was influenced on some level by WH as much as Jane Eyre, Austen novels and so on). Wuthering Heights is a romance, it's just not a genre romance/romance novel. And indisputably, Wuthering Heights is a love story.

It may not be a love story you like. It may not be a love story with a happily ever after (though I will say—this is one of the few books where I think it's pretty debatable, as "wandering the moors as ghosts", if that is what happened, is kind of... what Cathy and Heathcliff would've wanted... and their ultimate desire was to be TOGETHER, regardless of whether or not it damned them, so is it an HEA in their freaky minds? Maybe so lol). It may ALSO be an abuse story in which the lovers act horribly to each other.... though, I gotta say, MUCH WORSE to literally everyone else in their lives than they do to each other...

But it's a love story. That is one of several things it happens to be. The entire novel is driven by this central love story between Heathcliff and Cathy—a love that is, contrary to what a surface-level reading or reading by word of mouth would imply... very much mutual. I've already gone on about how Cathy Earnshaw is not Heathcliff's victim the way Isabella Linton is, and how Cathy is very much as involved in the love affair as he is. But truly, while their individual internal struggles are the framework and what keeps them apart in many ways—Heathcliff being a man of color and subject to racist abuse, Cathy conforming to society and classist pressures when her natural temperament is very much not of society—what propels the story is this romance.

Because they are supposed to be read as extremely similar, and as two people who do not truly identify with anyone but one another. They're supposed to be read as like minds. They're supposed to be read as thwarted. Some of the things those two say about each other and to each other are legitimately some of the most romantic lines I've ever read.

I mean, are they also kind of sick and wrong? Sure! But I do find it kind of rich to see people who are totally fine with reading dark romance wring their hands over the public at large interpreting Heathcliff and Cathy's relationship as an epic romance. I don't have an issue with anyone enjoying either! But. Let us be real. Part of why y'all are even enjoying work like that is the standard that books like WH set, and the fact that WH does speak to the lure of the dark and the tragedy of people who are super imperfect... and also super in love... continuously fucking up their own lives (and the lives of basically everyone around them) in this push-pull of denial and desire.

When people say "HOW COULD ANYONE EVER INTERPRET THIS AS ROMANTIC?" I just have to question... did you read the book? Because even if it's not for YOU, if it's not romantic TO YOU, surely you can see why other people (me and mine lol) read lines like these and go, "Wow, romantic":

“Catherine Earnshaw, may you not rest as long as I am living. You said I killed you--haunt me then. The murdered do haunt their murderers. I believe--I know that ghosts have wandered the earth. Be with me always--take any form--drive me mad. Only do not leave me in this abyss, where I cannot find you! Oh, God! It is unutterable! I cannot live without my life! I cannot live without my soul!”

(fun fact: I do have a part of the above quote tattooed on my body and I'm very happy about it)

"My great miseries in this world have been Heathcliff's miseries, and I watched and felt each from the beginning: my great thought in living is himself. If all else perished, and he remained, I should still continue to be; and if all else remained, and he were annihilated, the universe would turn to a mighty stranger: I should not seem a part of it."

"Hush, my darling! Hush, hush, Catherine! I'll stay. If he shot me so, I'd expire with a blessing on my lips."

[said when her damn husband is almost at the door lol]

"I’m not wishing you greater torment than I have, Heathcliff. I only wish us never to be parted: and should a word of mine distress you hereafter, think I feel the same distress underground, and for my own sake, forgive me!"

"'Heathcliff, dear! you should not be sullen now. Do come to me, Heathcliff.’

In her eagerness she rose and supported herself on the arm of the chair. At that earnest appeal he turned to her, looking absolutely desperate. His eyes, wide and wet, at last flashed fiercely on her; his breast heaved convulsively. An instant they held asunder, and then how they met I hardly saw, but Catherine made a spring, and he caught her, and they were locked in an embrace from which I thought my mistress would never be released alive..."

"Kiss me again; and don’t let me see your eyes! I forgive what you have done to me. I love my murderer—but yours! How can I?"

[Read: she is the murderer he is talking about. He's saying she doomed herself to death a long time ago, and he hates her for it. While also crying and kissing her lmao]

They're sickos! Nobody can argue otherwise. But that does not mean they're not in love, and it doesn't mean this isn't a love story, and wagging your fingers at people who read this as the obviously destructive love story this is and find it romantic... doesn't change that.

And the thing is that the book makes it pretttyyyy clear that even if Heathcliff and Cathy has assholery programed into their personalities, WITHOUT the contexts of how they were raised and the society that expects them both to conform to prescribed roles, they would probably just... be together. Like, they victimize people, especially Heathcliff. But they are also victims. The book isn't about a critique of two people Emily Bronte dreamed up; it's a critique of the CIRCUMSTANCES by way of Gothic, subversive melodrama. At the end of the day, their feelings, however passionate they are, are not inherently subversive. Their feelings are NATURAL. But they're twisted and contorted into something ugly through circumstance and the characters' responses to those circumstances.

For Heathcliff, A LOT of those circumstances that did twist him are in fact out of his control. Which is why we hate that casting, right?

But all that said, a love story being dirtybadwrong and about Bad People doesn't mean it isn't a love story, lol. Again—we don't even expect genre romance to be about good people.

Like. Yeah. We know Heathcliff and Cathy are assholes. You're not breaking new ground with that take. The book is still, in many ways, about those assholes being in love.

[thrumbolt]

So, I cancelled Nyxlin Week and deleted the event blog. Edit to clarify: I DELETED THE BLOG MYSELF! IT WAS NOT TAKEN DOWN BY TUMBLR BECAUSE OBVIOUSLY THERE WAS NOTHING ON THERE THAT WENT AGAINST TOS.

I originally wanted to do this event mainly because me and Copy have a bunch of Nyxlin art planned anyway and that way we could also encourage some more content out of a few other peers.

I expected SOME people to get miffed, maybe some angry anons, some hate posts, because we all know this fandom has lost all its hinges somewhere long ago (if it ever had them) and people are absolutely incapable to just ignore something they don't like. At first we thought a super silly banner might help against that, but clearly that was a big lapse of judgment on my part lol Either way, I wasn't too worried because there's nothing people can really do that bothers me and once the event would roll around everyone would realize there's nothing actually sinister about it, so I figured it would be fine.

What I did not expect, however, was the absolute insane behavior that ended up taking place, where people got targeted and their posts mass reported to take advantage of tumblrs shitty report system over absolutely fucking nothing. People who were not even involved in the event, just happened to write for the same pairing. So let me ask this very plainly: What the fuck is wrong with you? Because something definitely is and I hope you all are getting it checked out.

So I decided to call it quits because people getting hurt over it is obviously not worth it. And again, no wonder this fandom lacks a nice variety of artists who participate in events. What's the point? You canon obsessed pea-brained pearl-clutchers don't understand fan spaces or creativity. All you seem to be here for is virtual signalling, hate, bullying and demonstrating a severe lack of reading comprehension. I've had months of this high school bullshit now and I've really had enough.

I'm still gonna post my art (oh and all that Nyxlin stuff is not going anywhere, don't worry), but I am taking a step back from participating in fandom weeks and fandom discourse and whatnot. You guys can rip each other apart on your own.

[myfandomrealitea]

okay, so- this is coming from someone who really hasn't engaged in fandom discourse, especially regarding shipping and such. I dearly hope this doesn't come across as bait or troll, I'm genuinely curious and want to learn. apologies for the possibly-dumb question, but I really just need to ask-

what is proshipping? and what are 'antis'?

you know how it is, when you ask around you always get a biased answer one way or another. "proshippers are pedos" "proshippers all condone incest" "proship Bad and if you interact You Are Bad" (i think these are 'anti' points of view? am i using that term right? that's the rhetoric ive mainly heard). but despite all of that, i don't know if ive ever actually gotten a straight answer as to just.. what it factually is. because it doesn't feel like the sort of thing that you can boil down to insults or accusations or whatnot. it's all just very confusing to me, especially because i come from a place that essentially just told me to avoid like the plague and never look back. sorry, this became a bit of a ramble, lol. thank you so much in advance, i hope i'm not being a bother or insulting with this ^^;

The modern term; 'proship' (s.a; 'proshipping' and 'profiction') is an evolution of an earlier fandom acronym known as: 'SALS.'

Ship And Let Ship

SALS was one of the earliest fandom adoptions and interpretations of the concept of not bullying others for what they shipped or their fandom interests, and not trying to control or dictate what was "allowed" to be shipped or enjoyed. The most notable origin of SALS was during the early years of accessible fandom via Star Trek, and the present homophobia and misogyny in a largely male-dominated community.

As woman became more involved in fandom spaces, the presence of 'other' ships and pairings began to increase. M/M, F/F that wasn't purely for sexual gratification, and M/O and F/O (where 'O' is Other) pairings were popular amongst women, much as they still are today.

Not only did the presence of women in a "male space" receive a not insignificantly negative reaction, so too did them filling the fandom space with their shipping content. Now; sexism and misogyny and homophobia were not entirely to blame. Again as is still very much present today, people simply Did Not Like Certain Ships or Characters. And as they still do today, they'd spread hate about them and to the people who did enjoy them.

Thus: the birth of SALS.

(In other words: I like what I like and it has fuck all to do with you. Shut up and move on.)

Back then, SALS was mostly contained to just that. Ships and characters. Since back in that era 'taboo topics' and 'sexual content' were still pretty covert, people weren't exactly arguing the merits of incest in public forums and at conventions.

However, as all things do, the internet evolved. Society evolved. Media evolved. And so too did 'SALS' evolve in keeping with the new culture and subjects present in fandom spaces.

Suddenly it wasn't just ships and characters to be advocated for. It was themes. Subjects. Kinks. Plots. The more things people found to enjoy, so too did the more things people found to hate.

'Proship' is actually grammatically pro-ship. As in; in support of shipping. This is why I always state that the modern conceptions of proshipping would more accurately be coined profiction. It is no longer just about ships, but fiction as a whole.

However; the core value and sole inherent point of being proship, SALS, profiction and so forth remains exactly the same:

[I/We] believe you have no right to harm others over the [ship/content] they create or consume and [I/we] do not have the right to dictate what is or is not allowed in fandom spaces.

That's it. Don't harass people for what they enjoy fictionally. Don't try to force them into not enjoying or being able to enjoy it.

Of course, the modern adaption varies wildly in terms of 'additional values' thanks to the evolution of the term and what it can encompass. However, there is certainly no obligation to:

Create or consume content you are uncomfortable with.

Create or consume content regarded as 'taboo' or 'triggering.' Such as incest.

Be involved with any aforementioned content beyond turning a blind eye if its not your thing.

Inherently, anyone who says they're 'neutral' on the matter but firmly believes in minding their own business is just a proshipper refusing to use the label if you're taking the term solely at its core value.

In terms of 'antis' they're just the antithesis of the above. Antis are people who generally believe that fiction is irrevocably tied in with who you are, what you believe/condone, and that real-life limitations and values should also apply to fiction.

Although, its is heavy debated and it wildly varies per individual to the degree this is taken.

(E.g: some 'antis' believe you should only write rape fic if you are a victim using it as catharsis or education. Other 'antis' believe there's absolutely no excuse or reason to write rape fic at all.)

Antis typically believe that enjoyment or being invested in content which is regarded as harmful or illegal in real life is morally unsound and reflects that you're a bad or morally unsound person.

Although I disagree, I can honestly say in some aspects I do understand this reasoning. I don't agree, but I do understand why people may come to that conclusion.

As with proshippers, antis vary from people who simply ignore and block content they don't agree with to radicals.

'Anti' is again a prefix. Although modern adoption of the term uses it as a singular signifier, it would grammatically be anti-[fandom], anti-[character], ect. As was commonly used in the past.

The rhetoric that all proshippers are pedophiles or support incest is common-spread and effective 'anti' propaganda. Similar to how so many people believe 'proship' inherently signifies that you must create and/or consume taboo or darker content.

It doesn't.

¹ Proship may also be accurately termed as simply: 'anti-harassment.' ² Its important to note the 'definition' of these terms may vary wildly depending on the individual. However, detailed above is the most historical use and evolution of the terms and their definitions.

[nqueso-emergency]

soooo asian girl in asia here (i mostly see westerners enjoying this show so wanted to throw it out there that we exist too) and i've been watching 911 on and off. just rewatched all seasons when disney+ came to my country. saw buck and tommy in s7 and thought they were totally cute together. the chemistry was cooking. and finally some good bi representation that's not just something mentioned offscreen? hell yeah! i went to tumblr for gif sets and head canons and discourse and found your blog. now, as someone who has been involved in shipping for most of my life, i do see the cuteness of buck and eddie together but was never drawn to them in a way that i usually would be for other ships because i felt their chemistry was firmly in the 'friendship' category. that never stopped people from shipping before, of course, but i wasn't one of them...which is a surprise to me actually, because i'm usually there on day one saying the two boys in whatever show im watching should kiss. what i was not surprised by was that there are fans who genuinely believe buddie would become canon and that a portion of those fans are being difficult. like, i was there for johnlock and klance and hannigram (which is canon lol) and others for fan content, so i know how these people roll.

anyway.

shortly after i finished watched, my cousin started, and she is more of a 911 fan than i am. impatiently waited for s7 and everything but she's not on twitter so doesn't really know about bi buck. here's the thing: i wouldn't call her accepting because our country is quite old-fashioned and religious. like really religious. so when she saw that famous scene, she was shocked and a little weirded out. so of course, me being a troll, i restarted the episode and watched it with her again. eventually she said, 'oh, ok that makes sense why buck was so jealous! he wanted TOMMY'S attention, not eddie! it didn't make sense that buck was jealous of eddie having a new friend.' and then, since i've been reading your blog a lot, i decided to gauge her reaction to buddie and she was like, 'what? no! they're obviously only best friends. i don't feel their chemistry. but i admit buck and tommy are cute together.'

so that's just a little perspective on buddie and bucktommy from the GA on the other side of the world!

Thank you so much for sharing!!!

[sharp-rosee]

Hey funny story: I haven't been around Tumblr at all for months, but today someone told me menalez had deactivated or something so I came on here and looked it up. First result was a post by you, i checked out your blog and wouldn't you know it your most recent post had you defending me post mortem lmfao. I sent an anon to the other woman too but it seems she won't post it so to clarify to you: when I supposedly said "studies showing violence suffered by bisexuals are cringe and useless" what I remember thinking about that is that those studies that I've seen are never used to try to understand why bisexuals suffer such insane rates of violence (more than homosexuals) and trying to stop it. I've only seen them be used as battering rams in discourse when homosexuals criticize bisexuals. Which is crazy for such a serious issue and totally trivializes it lol. Also that my explanation for it was that such studies show that many abused people incorrectly id as bi for a time. You can disagree or wtv just those were my points, she made it sound like I'm cheering on women beating if they're bi or something. Also your defense of me (thanks queen lol) is accurate if you were wondering. I used to be sorta pro strict separatism but I outgrew the anger/ denial phase of "most women will partner with men" and reached acceptance. Most people are built for romantic partnership, that's just human nature, I can't be hating het women just because their lot in life in that means they're more likely to be abused. Just because I'm not drawn to men, or even much to romance, doesn't mean I should act like that's everyone else too and judge them on that standard, I accept reality and want women to be safe within that rather than pointlessly hate on them and get all worked up because some women have boyfriends..

Well I'm also a mean asshole, I'm sure you noticed, and I definitely would give the bi girlies on radblr a hard time here at the time lol. I don't have the "one side" sort of takes on this divide on radblr. It was funny but I can't feel the energy to that anymore since leaving tumblr, way too few bis or gays irl to care about that stuff. But at the end of the day these are my actual takes on all that disk horse. Funny to see it immediately on such a causal stroll around here lol

-sleep3r4gent

QUEEN I used to follow you ♡ at least when I was crypto a few years back I did.

Also, I'm glad you clarified because the way some women on here seem to hallucinate things they read almost makes me feel insane as well. Like you sending an ask saying you never thought of a certain perspective is not indicative of you agreeing and obviously one can change their opinions over time.

I really have no opinion either way tbh, I myself am straight and in a relationship, and have had others on my last blog send some anons calling me a "dick worshipper" and other misogynistic BS, but they stopped once I didn't let it bother me much. It's so obviously a group of trolls that it's embarrassing that they still believe it enough to keep bringing back the same users, some like you who aren't even misogynistic, to further their persecution complex.

It even is more annoying because these are the women who made Mena/Moideater leave, the above drama is a big reason why. The way radblr will still reblog posts from very racist blogs and not bat an eye but then freak out over a clique of women who aren't even radfems really does show what demographic makes up this site.

I know it gets exhausting to be involved in arguments, but it's nice to know you're still somewhat around. I hope you, Mena and Moid come back someday. If not I understand. But I'll never forget any of them and I haven't forgotten you 😭😭😭

[genericpuff]

I don't know the term for creators who became popular outside the traditional steps to "make it" in their profession; then when people started taking their work seriously and giving them criticism, these creators saw it as an attack because they are not used to mentors and studies.

Smythe's professional training is vague at best, being a folklorist. Then there's the creator of the popular hell cartoon that became her own executive producer and director in her 20s (I'm not going to say her name since it tends to attract her rabid fans) and becomes reactive to any kind of criticism on Twitter. Then there's that TikToker Devon Rodriguez, who became popular for sketching people on subways, and when an art critic gave a mild review to his art gallery, Devon unleashed his fans on him.

Like am I seeing a pattern here for artists? And I guess, what do you think we can learn from it.

Ah, so this is a very interesting (and broad) topic that we've touched on in discussions in ULO and other webtoon-related communities. So buckle up, it's time for an ✨essay✨

I think the best way I can sum up my thoughts on this issue is: the vast majority of people who become paid content creators don't seek out a job as content creators, a job in content creation is just something that happens to them.

I say "content creation" because this is something that applies to a lot of other platforms and online mediums as well, such as the examples you included (TikTok, Youtube, Twitch, etc.). And don't get me wrong, it's not like every successful content creator out there didn't work their asses off to get to where they are, but for many... it still involves an element of luck. People don't go to school for it, people don't "apply" to become influencers, and much of it relies entirely on just making stuff until it gets seen and propelled into success.

I think a lot of these issues arise with the creators themselves and how they view their own work. The reality is that many of us artists have been treated as the "rejects" of society, we constantly feel like we're misunderstood and have some deep inner pain that we express through our art, and instead of going to therapy, we come up with OC's. It's a lot more fun and it's a lot cheaper LOL Webcomics naturally wind up being the perfect lightning rod for people who feel that way, where we can pour ourselves into the characters, the world, the narrative, in a way that perfectly mixes our talents for art and our need to express our innermost thoughts and feelings about ourselves and the world around us. So when our art gets criticized or rejected ... it can be hard for a lot of artists to not feel like it's a criticism of the self, a rejection of our identities, an attack on our feelings and experiences, because we've tied so much of ourselves to our work. And this can make that transition very difficult for people who are trying to go pro, because being professional demands separating yourself from your work, at least enough that you can view it objectively, recognize its flaws, seek out pathways to improvement, and not take every bump in the road personally.

A lot of successful creators are people who just never made that transition. It's led to an abundance of professional creators who know how to film themselves or react to content or, in the case of webcomic artists, write stories about their OC's, but don't know how to actually navigate the industry at a professional level. They don't know how to read and negotiate contracts, they don't know what deals are actually good for them and which ones are better left on the table, they don't know how to manage teams of people, they don't know how to react to the attention, praise, and criticism of their audience - they're just doing what they've always done, but now they're making money doing it.

None of this is to speak ill in any way of the creators who've found success and are still just doing what they've always done for money. None of this is meant to be a slight on the creators who are using webcomics and art as an expression of their deeper selves (I do it myself, it's very cathartic!) because ultimately that's what makes your work your work, the fact that you made it, with all your good parts and bad. Many of these creators are capable of running their platform without any issues because they've learned how to play the game, or because their platform is made up of people just like them so their audience is more like just a social circle.

But many of them still also can't operate on a professional level and those are the ones we often see getting called out and held accountable when they do shit like, I dunno, scamming their audiences for money or making alt accounts to manipulate user reviews or plagiarizing from other people's work or just being really REALLY shitty to their own audience.

Often times these are people who are just doing what they'd normally do as a hobby, became well known for it, and managed to turn it into a living. But they never actually learned how to turn their hobby into a job, and themselves into professionals.

And artists especially are prone to this because, let's face it, a lot of us are just weebs having fun drawing our blorbos, so of course if we get a chance to monetize that, we're gonna! We should! We should want to be paid for our work and time and efforts!

But we also have to remember that it's a different ballgame, especially if you're turning your audience into customers. "I'm just a baby creator doing this for fun" doesn't and shouldn't apply anymore once you start signing contracts, selling your art as products, taking people's money to fund your projects, etc. because now it's not just your art, it's what you're expecting people to pay for so you can eat and pay your bills and live.

As much as our art is often personal and should be cherished as such, you can't expect people to want to pay for it if you're not setting a bar and meeting it, or if you're not treating your audience with any amount of dignity or respect.

I'm not saying you're not entitled to having feelings or still wanting to treat your art as art, but the line between art and products is there for a reason, it's to set people's expectations and ensure that both sides are having those expectations met. Webtoon creators suffer from the same thing that a lot of Youtube creators and other types of content creators suffer from in this transition, and I feel like HBomberGuy summed it up best:

"In current discourse, Youtubers simultaneously present as the forefront of a new medium, creative voices that need to be taken seriously as part of the 'next generation of media' - and also uwu smol beans little babies who shouldn't be taken seriously when they rip someone off and make tens of thousands of dollars doing it."

It's not gatekeeping a medium, it's not telling people they aren't allowed to have feelings or to want to still have that personal connection to their work in spite of the professional level it's achieved, it's simply just expecting people to actually live up to the label of 'professional' that they're using to make money.

And this especially goes for someone like Rachel, who claims to be a 'folklorist' despite all the contrary evidence that says otherwise. This is the same person who copy pasted the first result on Google as her source on a simple word definition:

There's a second part to that HBomberGuy quote that also actually applies to Rachel really well in this discussion, concerning how she labels herself a "folklorist" and how that's affected and influenced the greater discussion surrounding Greek myth:

"But on the opposite end, Youtubers who act like serious documentarians gain a shroud of professionalism which then masks the deeply unprofessional things they do. We just saw that with James. I think [James] partially got away with what he's doing for so long because he acts so professional about it, so people assume, 'there's no way he could just be stealing shit!' so they don't check. And on top of that, a lot of James' videos contain obvious mistakes and made-up facts... but because they're often presented next to well-researched stuff he stole, no one questions it. I've seen James repeat a lie in his videos, and then other people claim it's true, and link his video as the proof. He has helped to solidify misinformation by seeming like he's doing his diligence."

There's always going to be discourse over what's legitimate and what isn't when it comes to Greek myth, there are loads of things we still don't know simply due to the knowledge being lost to time. But there's something to be said about a white New Zealand woman using her self-insert romance comic and platform to build a veneer of professionalism and legitimacy around herself, as if she's the authority on the subject, while simultaneously relying on first result Google searches and citing works that have no real foothold in the way of scholarly or "folklorist" discussion.

All that's to say, you're right, her professional training is vague at best. She's never completed a longform comic prior to LO, she's not doing her due diligence in actually engaging with the media she's trying to "retell" and exposing herself to the voices of those from the culture that's tied to it, and she's not holding herself to any sort of standards when it comes not only to being a professional, but a professional who's been held on a pedestal for all these years. She's still operating the same way she was 5 years ago - drawing and writing whatever pops into her head and sending it to her editor for uploading, with next to no intervention or guidance. Except now it doesn't have the benefit of being new and having "potential", it's getting noticed and called out more now than ever because it's been 5 years of this shit and it's been getting worse on account of her clearly being burnt out (or just giving up/not caring) and the readers can't be sold on "potential" anymore.

And that's all I have to say on that.

[dawnbreakersgaze]

Dawnbreaker Discourse 🌄

Over the last couple days I've been tagged in a number of posts regarding the theory that Greyson's story No Morning holds proof that Zayne's Snowy Serenity card is actually Dawnbreaker Zayne who managed to make it to the present timeline.

Below the cut, I'll discuss why I don't believe this is the case, along with references to the in game content that supports my theory. That said, please note that I fully support the folks who want to believe this theory, because at the end of the day my man deserves to have everyone in his corner.

Let's dig in shall we?

For starters, I'm not going to rehash the entire breakdown of where all this commentary started, but will try to sum it up quickly instead.

『The CN players have linked the appearance of the white flowers and the black crystal ice in the WU story No Morning to Dawnbreaker.』

All of these theories are interesting and have a lot of fun ideas, but all of them are missing what I think is the key element here.

I believe the constant reference to the black crystal ice as Dawnbreaker's Evol is being misconstrued for what the game is setting up to be a major plot device/point in later parts of the story.

In No Morning we see Greyson observe the black crystals here-

Earlier in this same story it's specified that this plant comes from a very specific place on Mt Eternal, a place where we've seen another massively impactful scene involving something identical in another anecdote- Never ending Winter:

We also see them referenced again in the World Undernead stories Longly Flame, and Snowy Stairs-

I believe there are other references to the black crystals I am surely missing, but these are the ones I remembered right off the top of my head.

I ALSO realize that in Greyson's POV it very specifically calls them "black ICE crystals" while every other reference says "Black crystals" but I fully believe that's either a translation error, or just a solid case for unreliable narrator. As much as I adore Grey, he can be a bit of a dork, so I can accept the mishap there. That being said, I really do believe with all my heart it is simply a translation difference rather than a deliberate misdirection.

And while Dawnbreaker's ice is indeed a black ice, I do not believe that it will ever be used in a significant storytelling capacity (as in I dont think it will be used to subtly hint at his presence) due to the very heavy-handed usage of these black crystals PG has been feeding us since the very beginning. Never Ending Winter was one of the OG anecdotes, so these black crystals have been set up from launch as a very important reference to either a type of protocore sickness, a metaflux disease, or some other deepspace linked disorder we've yet to understand.

That said, I'll admit I've definitely been calling Zayne's Snowy Serenity card the DawnFaker card because I'll agree- it has some H E A V Y DB undertones and they didn't do him any favors by putting him in a Dawnbreaker cosplay but with a beige sweater. I'm gonna continue to call it the DawnFaker card, but know that it's said in jest and with affection, and that I don't actually believe that card was Dawnbreaker (as much as I wish it was!)

I hope my little bit of imput was helpful or even slightly insightful! Please feel free to discuss or link me any refuting information. I'm always down to say "oops I was wrong~" when it comes to the lore of this game. Because let's be real, it's a mess lol.

[yesimwriting]

More than this

A/n the anakin appearance in ahsoka show got to me, that's all i can say

warnings: i didn't think too much about realistic timelines and i lowkey prioritized vibe over canon (as usual tbh), also written very quickly bc i'm supposed to be studying for a test so typos maybe? and maybe not great lol,, lowkey manipulative anakin but he's in his villain era so

Summary: Similar vibes as that force "facetime" thing with kylo and rey,, basically anakin 'facetiming' his not gf after killing off a bunch of younglings bc she's going through it and he's that committed

----

You're sick of it. Not of meetings or of political discourse or of trying to do the right thing for your people. You're sick of pretending like your entire way of life doesn't have an approaching expiration date.

The door to your bed chambers shuts with a groan loud enough to mask your irritated sigh. You squeeze your eyes shut so tightly you see stars before resting your forehead against the solid surface.

At least you're alone now. For now.

It won't be long before someone finds you. Another meeting or lesson or worst of all--another suitor. You don't want any of it. In fact, you might not ever want to speak to another person again.

"Not surprising."

You turn around too quickly, the back of your head hitting the door with a soft thump. Some combination of a shout and gasp tries to crawl up your throat but just as quickly the urge vanishes.

"Great..." He's standing at the other end of your room, confident like he has a right to be in your chambers. Like he's actually-- "I'm being driven to insanity."

He tilts his head slightly, expression revealing much too little. "I've told you." He takes a step forward. "I'm real."

At this point, he's given you several reasons to believe the stories he's told you. That the force he wields for whatever reason has chosen to connect the two of you. Considering what you've been briefed on regarding the current state of the Jedi, you might be better off if the stranger that keeps finding you does turn out to be a hallucination.

A question settles in your chest the way it often does when he appears. Now that you know about the rumored fall of the Jedi that has your father nervous and your advisors unsure, you're more wary of him than ever. How is he 'standing' here, perfectly fine?

You're not overly concerned about offending him. He's just someone that manipulates his abilities to pop in whenever you crave solitude most. But something at the back of your mind warns that you might not want the answer. Nothing good could come from any involvement of the Jedi in their current state.

"A hallucination would make the same argument," you whisper, voice drier than before. He takes another step in your direction. A mistake. You've made one by indicating nerves. "So..." Recovering quickly, you force your spine to straighten, "Why are you here this time?"

Casual and detached. That's how all of these forced rendezvous go. It's the safest. He insists on whatever point he's trying to make and you pretend to be too caught up in your annoyance to find any part of interesting until he eventually vanishes. Any stray in that could lead to a negative shift. Especially now.

"Are you not happy to see me?" You blink. He's made those types of comments before, a hint of humor touching his features enough to make you feel less on edge. But this time the words feel off, void of any warmth or surprising charisma.

Nerves twist themselves in your stomach. Whatever happened to the Jedi, whatever had all the members of your latest meeting on edge has effected him.

He's watching you, waiting for a reaction. You want out, but some instinct begs you to keep that hidden. A lifetime of being a royal daughter instead of a son has taught you that there's a certain safety that comes from playing unaware. "Not any more or less happy than usual."

That sounds normal, right? You've never been particularly nice to him, making it clear that you have no interest or time for whatever potential the force he's always talks about sees in the two of you as a pairing. But you're also not mean or flighty. "Okay, maybe a little less."

A small offering. You've done it before, revealing bits and pieces of your life to him because he has no part in your world. It doesn't matter what he knows and you've never had someone in your life in any capacity that you could just rant to, someone you could exist around without any pretext.

"And why is that?"

Another thing you didn't think through. The meeting that made you feel like a useless figurehead just waiting to be married off had revolved around the issues with the Jedi and what that means for your people.

"Some meetings today." That's a casual enough thing to admit. He normally assumes that's your issue. "Long meetings...so if you could just get to your point and disappear the way you usually do."

The corner of his mouth turns upwards. Normally, his partial smiles and signs of ease make you feel better about speaking to him. This look, however, only further knots your stomach. "Busy day."

"Yeah," you agree, nodding once, "Another one of my cousins have agreed to a proposed betrothal and that--that always starts discussions of when I'll finally do the same and--"

You're not sure where your rambling's going, you just know that this is something you complain about enough for it to seem normal. Besides, the best covers are based on the truth and what you're referencing is true enough. There was some discussion about a relative's impending marriage, but the rumors took over the meeting before anyone could try to convince your father to finally marry you off.

He takes another step towards the door and then another. The room is large enough that there's still an amount of distance between the two of you that's respectable, but that doesn't make it easier to dismiss that he's getting closer. At least your proximity to the door is comforting.

"You've never lied to me before."

The flutter of uncertainty in your stomach spikes, a brief wave of panic rendering you incapable of thinking. He's capable of just appearing in your room without actually being here, being able to tear apart your lie is nothing compared to that. But somehow him being able to tell where your truth begins and ends feels much more invasive than what you already knew about. You don't lie constantly, but for so long your ability to seem clueless has been your only form of self preservation.

You don't know what to do next. A part of you wants to fall back on habit, commit to your portrayal of not knowing. He'll see through it, there's no reason for him not to, but what else is there? Owning up to lying about the meeting will lead to a discussion of the actual meeting and that...

You're not sure why you're so convinced that ignorance is what you should be striving for. After all, everything you heard about the Jedi's current situation was unconfirmed, too recent and closed off to have reached even the top leader's of your home. But if it's true and he's really reaching out to you after such tragedy and acting casual in a way that makes it feel like you've never met him before.

You're also too aware of the fact that while you do feel the need to be alert, you're not afraid. This would be easier if you were. "How do you know that?"

Instead of sounding as closed off as you want to, genuine curiosity bleeds into the question.

"The same way we can see each other." Another step, this one less subtle. "I can teach you, if you'd like."

If he can tell when you're lying, there's not much point in saying no without a reason because despite yourself, you would like to know how. Who wouldn't? "I think I'm missing certain abilities."

His eyebrows draw together, and for a brief second you get a glimpse of something a little more familiar and a lot easier to accept. "I wouldn't be too sure."

Okay, now you know something's up with him. A breezy half-laugh escapes you. "Come on." Maybe that was his way of releasing some of the tension. His expression doesn't waiver. "Okay." If he wants to act strange, fine, but he's not going to convince you that you're like him in anyway. "What makes you say that?"

A beat passes and then another. If he had behaved like he usually does, you might have even considered the silence a sort of hesitation. "You're the one that reached out to me."

Another breathy, almost nervous laugh slips out. "Even if I had wanted to speak to you, I wouldn't have known how."

"You found a way."

There are only so many things you can believe from him. He's an invasive stranger that you've decided to accept in your life out of desperation for an outlet of escape. "That's impossible." He's closer now than you remember him being a second ago. That's almost enough to derail your train of thought. "The--the only thing I was thinking about was how much I wanted to be alone."

"You say that every time."

Pressing your lips together, you give yourself permission to let his words sink in. Every time you've seen him, it's after deciding that you want nothing to do with anyone ever again. "Then I guess you have impeccable timing."

He's so close now that you could extend an arm to touch him....if you wanted to. He angles his chin downwards slightly, "I can teach you."

Warmth begins to crawl up your chest. His assistance is another thing that should scare you. You're not like him...you can't be and even if you were, it'd have to be a secret that you take with you to the grave. And even if you are, why does it matter to him? "Why?"

He's unfazed by your abrasive tone. "I can see it."

"There's nothing to s--"

"You want more than this." You swallow once in an attempt to get rid of whatever's lodged itself in your throat. Maybe there is no such thing as being able to be fully honest with anyone, no matter how disconnected from your life they may seem. "I can help you."

Some halfhearted correction tries to pry itself out of your mouth even though there's no point. "I don't--we don't even know each other." You keep your poster rigid. "I don't even know your name."

His lips part. Whatever response he was planning on giving you is cut off before he can even start by the quick knocking against your door. Your head initially snaps towards the door. "..Are you in there?" Another rush of soft knocks. "Your father's waiting for you, he wants to debrief the last meeting."

Your let your head fall forward again with an instinctual sigh. By the time your eyes settle where they were before, he's gone.

[our-aroace-experience]

(TW for vent full of internalized aphobia.)

I'm aroace and agender/genderless, which kind of puts me in a weird spot because I'm not cishet (because I'm... Neither cis nor het), but I'm not confidently LGBTQ+ either because it's a discourse topic that I don't want to get involved in. I stayed in the closet for at least a couple years because I internalized so much of that shit and was convinced my identity was inherently problematic somehow lol.

So, just to be safe and avoid intruding on anyone's space, I just say I'm neither cishet nor queer/LGBTQ+. Problem is, it seems like everyone wants you to be one of those things or the other. If I say I'm not LGBTQ+, people assume I'm cishet, which leads to me getting misgendered and/or assumed to be straight even though I'm definitely not (and that has led to some uncomfortable situations with straight people thinking I might be into them). But if I say I'm not cishet, people put me in the LGBTQ+ community regardless of whether or not I really belong there, so I feel like I'm infiltrating someone else's community and stealing from them.

One time I met someone online who was trans, biromantic, and ace, and she also didn't consider herself LGBTQ+ because she had seen a lot of transphobia biphobia and aphobia in that community. And it surprised me so much, because it had never occurred to me that there are people who don't consider themselves part of the community despite having "real LGBT" identities.

This sounds weird, but I wonder how many others out there consider themselves "neither." It's kind of lonely but for me it feels like the safest option, at least for now.

(I just want to add, this isn't meant to attack ace/aro/agender people who do consider themselves LGBTQ+. That's completely fine, and if I wasn't so jaded by ace discourse I'd probably identify as such too. I consider myself "neither" because of personal reasons related to aphobia, not because I believe A is for ally or anything like that.)

discourse is the worst, and i’m sorry it’s made you feel you can’t be a part of the community, you absolutely can if you want to!

[zykamiliah]

Hey, sorry to bother you, but I've been seeing something in the fandom that kind of confuses me, so I'm leaving this ask to my favorite svsss blogs.

I've been trying to get more into Shen Jiu's character, as he is pretty interesting and arguably a fan favorite, and I've noticed that, so far of the fanfics I've read, he is more often than not depicted as a good teacher. A harsh one, but still good? Or not terrible?

One that likes teaching, is involved with his students, taking the little of what we've seen of Shen Yuan's teaching methods and just, giving them a twist, "improving" them even sometimes.

Often it ends up being a show of how Shen Yuan was clumsy, not that good of a teacher (or of a Shen Qingqiu) and I'm... Kind of confused by this trend? Like, is it rooted in canon? Obviously this is still more interesting to read than the "SJ is just a tsundere that never did anything wrong ever" thing, but it feels kind of similar.

I cannot imagine a character as genuinely bitter and angry as Shen Jiu enjoying being a teacher, having a nurturing bone in his body or even being hands on in the teaching of his disciples, several of which he literally bullied out of his peak. But maybe it's just me and I'm wrong?

Was Shen Jiu a good teacher?

I guess I'm just curious of where it comes from. I like Shen Yuan's character, and it often feels like people take Shen Jiu's to show how bad at everything SY is, even if it isn't consistent with SJ's character and often lack nuances, in my opinion.

(Or even if the story claims loving SY while also stripping him away of everything that makes him interesting other than his obliviousness, but that's a whole other thing.)

Sorry again, and I also apologize for the long ask, I'd just figured you or someone that follows you might have an answer.

(Also, I get that fandoms gotta fandom, and I'm not saying people shouldn't write it or anything, I may be a strickler for canon but I'm not the police. Write what you want. I just wonder where it comes from, as I figure that knowing its origins might help me in the future, but I promise I'm not trying to start discourse or anything, so I hope I've made my point clear enough without offending anyone.)

hello!! :DD

well sj being ooc in fics is a common thing by now. people tend to portray him softer than he's in canon, to the point it sometimes turns his whole character upside down. in extreme cases, you'll be dealing with a bitter, more tsundere version of sy with sj's backstory, which is secretly what many people want IMO lol often this people also perceive sy as an incompetent dumb nerd that only knows about monster lore and has no other skills or abilities aside from that-- essentially, they fall for the unreliable narrator's trap of believing every lie he tells about himself.

it's never outright stated, but sj didn't like children, so is fair to assume he didn't like teaching or caring for them either. taking into account qing jing peak's toxic atmosphere pre sy's transmigration, AND the fact that sj was paranoid about being overthrown since he hadn't developed a golden core even after becoming a peak lord and taking lbh in, I don't think he'd be interested in teaching anyone anything. in a lot of cultivation novels, disciples are just given manuals and left to self-study them (like he let lbh use the fake manual, expecting lbh would die from using it. haha. such a good teacher!). this could be the case. aside from that, I don't personally think sj would want to provide any kid guidance. and that's not mentioning how he allowed and enabled bullying, targeted talented disciples, and overall was more worried about his own cultivation and survival and reputation than other things or people.

so where this fanon sj comes from? I'm not sure, really, but I think some people just want a version of him that's palatable AND defensible, like my friend furby says, a declawed sj that's just a poor misunderstood meowmeow who deep inside is secretly good and nice. it's a thing that people who struggle with liking "villainous" or "morally bad" characters do: twisting the narrative around to justify this character's actions. It doesn't help that he's SO complicated, and people who have very black-and-white thinking struggle to place him in either side of the spectrum-- it's the problem mxtx outlined through sqh and sqq's voices

ch.14 house arrest

ch.19 shen jiu

really, the fandom has just proved mxtx's point xD

anyway, there's a lot of misconceptions about sj. there are some pretty wild theories around. some fans also treat his abuse as The Worst Abuse in comparison to the Child Abuse he did, because of the (unconfirmed) hints that sj was sexually assaulted by qiu jianluo, as if SA is the worst kind of abuse and child abuse falls back on the tier-list ¯_(ツ)_/¯ because obviously anything that involves sex in inherently worse, apparently

in other cases, people are simply more familiar with the fanon version of the characters, and that's who they portray in their writing. after all, many people read the novel once and then go on to read dozen of fics; it's normal the fanon sticks more on the brain than canon (not judging! it happens to me as well lol) and those fanon versions are more popular because, as i said, this version of sj is more morally palatable (and bland and less fun ┐(︶▽︶)┌)

thank you for the ask!! :DDDD ❤️❤️❤️ i love receiving asks~

[animentality]

the fun thing about durgetash for me as far as definitely toxic ships go, is that gortash and durge, as individuals, are toxic. but the ship itself? not toxic at all in my take. because as horrible as they are as people, the love they have for each other is actually very genuine. everyone else in the world is dust under their boots except for each other. they truly respect each other and get along frighteningly well and listen to each other and support each other’s atrocities and so, if you ignore the screaming of their victims in the background, their relationship is actually kind of healthy.

to be fair: this is with my version of them in mind lol i know other people have spicer takes where they ARE actively toxic to each other and such, and those are fun too but ive gotten so into the version of them where they both just exude toxicity to everyone in their lives EXCEPT each other. it’s already a trope im very weak to but its especially crazy with them. its like they cancel each other out somehow lol

like i think it takes a while to get to that point of course, to build up actual trust enough to feel even slightly safe around each other, but once they open up to each other the affection-starvation just jumps out. and then despite everything they manage to actually be gentle with each other. and neither of them deserves gentleness of any sort, but they get it anyway, from each other.

so for me durgetash is “toxic” only by virtue of the individuals involved being horrible terrible people, and because they gleefully support each other’s evil plans, and not because of how they actually treat each other, which is actually the closest thing to “normal” either of them will ever experience (and it is still so, so far from “normal” lol)

but it’s still also nice to be in a ship where the discourse is so obvious we don’t even bother lol. yes gortash has a list of human rights abuses longer than he is tall. yes he’s gonna have an evil cuddle with his evil partner-in-crime in their evil bedroom after a long, hard day of being evil. and i’m gonna be thinking about it <3

Anon, you get me.

I think durgetash just works because...they are so blatantly evil.

Gortash tortured a bunch of people trying to figure out how tadpoles worked, and the evidence of his crimes is in the mindflayer colony beneath Moonrise and in the Steel Watch Foundry. His Steel Watch guards literally kill children and innocent families.

The Dark Urge mentions killing (eating?) a BABY. They have killed thousands. They eat human meat. They torture people.

They both started the entire plot by being total pieces of shit.

So what are you going to do?

Cancel them???

The game cancels them.

Gortash literally got cancelled so hard his brain popped.

The Dark Urge dies in most playthroughs. They only become redeemable by literally dying and becoming a new person. Plus their life is so fucking awful, that it almost cancels out how bad they are, because they're a vessel of Bhaal, who can either choose obedience or death.

They are both so outrageously evil, you can't even be outraged.

No one on the entire planet is defending either of them.

It almost defeats itself as an argument, like, you say Gortash is horrible, and I say yeah, man. You say, the Dark Urge is evil, and I say absolutely.

But that's kind of why...a relationship between the two of them IS so good, though.

Sure, there have always been villainous ships, but...something about these jagged creatures having a soft spot for one another...

It just works.

It's...it's taking two wretched beasts, and giving them something human to hold between their claws.

How can you support them being together, but how could you deny them this?

They're so horrible, they don't deserve love, but at the same time, seeing profoundly evil people are still capable of love, and humanity is inescapable, no matter how inhuman you are...

Hmmmm.

Yes.

The worse Dark Urge and Enver are, the better Durgetash comes.

That's the wonderful conundrum.

It's honestly such a SHIP, anon.

THE Ship.