#discussions of antisemitism

[nachobsns]

Hello - I was impressed and extremely relieved by what you wrote in the post about the cult mentality of the Left RE Israel and accusations of genocide. You mentioned that you bought into the mindset until recently. If it's all right for me to ask, what was it that helped you break out of it? (Please feel free to delete/ignore if you'd rather not answer!)

thank you!! and no worries about asking— i think i put something in my pinned post about how people are welcome to send asks about this stuff, although my story isn’t super interesting. i fell down the typical online rabbithole, a couple weeks after october 7; i knew what had happened, at least vaguely, but the posts trickling onto my dash were all about the (undeniably tragic) loss of life in gaza, with little to no acknowledgment of the hamas atrocities that had started the war, so my narrative was pretty one-sided from the beginning. it just continued to snowball as the months went on and people became more radicalized, calling into question the reality of the 10/7 attacks and the humanity of all israelis. i never went all the way down the pipeline to full-on endorsing hamas or justifying their attacks, at least on a personal level, thank god, but i would reblog other people’s posts referring to hamas as a “resistance movement” and calls to boycott starbucks and mcdonald’s and condemnation of the “zionist media” etc etc etc. what pulled me out of it wasn’t any one thing— if someone had directly called me on my flawed logic and antisemitic biases while i was in this mindset, i doubt it would have done much, just reinforced my belief that i was on the “right side of history” and zionists were aggressors who couldn’t be reasoned with. it was mostly just passive observance and a slow exposure to other perspectives. i’m pretty sure the first post that led me to question my thinking was an ask on jewish-vents, which popped up on my dash in like, late july. this led me down another rabbithole, first scouring every single post on jewish-vents, then moving on to more popular jewish blogs that i had seen on “zionist blocklists” (applesauce42069, xclowniex, and spacelazarwolf were probably some of the blogs that influenced me the most, though i told myself i was just hate-scrolling at first, lol). i felt incredibly guilty seeing all the harm the movement i was a part of had caused to random jews and israelis just trying to live their lives and i realized how it went against everything i believed about how minority groups should be treated. from there, the aspect of actually undoing my thinking and changing my behavior for the better still took several weeks. denial of jewish indigenity to the levant in the face of tantamount archeological and cultural evidence was the first to go, as well as any ambiguity in my feelings about hamas. after that, it’s mostly been a slow process of redefining the idf’s actions from a “genocide” to a “war.” i still believe that what’s happening in gaza is unconscionable and horrific, and that too many innocent civilians have died, but i also understand how difficult it is to fight against a terrorist group that systematically embeds itself in civilian populations, and that the ratio of militant to civilian deaths is incredibly low compared to most urban warfare. i quietly deleted my old blog in early august— if i had directly engaged in harassment against jews, i likely would have kept it to make amends to the harmed parties and put a face to my actions, but as was, i had just contributed to the larger atmosphere of antisemitism on this site, and i felt uncomfortable knowing that i had a blog full of sentiments that no longer matched my values and beliefs. i decided i would be better if i took my endorsement out of the equation entirely, because when you’re looking through the notes of a post, it obviously doesn’t matter if someone who’s reblogged it no longer agrees with what was said— their notes still count as tacit approval, and i did not want approval of this “activism” attached to my online presence. i still have unwanted kneejerk reactions that crop up sometimes, particularly around the fundraiser posts from people “in gaza”; even though i know logically that they have all the markers of scams, there is still a part of me that really wants to believe i could help.

[bifntastic]

Goyim stop fetishizing Jews challenge. If you reject 90% of us from engaging with your “content” then get our culture and our imagery out your damn mouth.

Update: Looking at their blog, they got an anon ask about this and are saying they’re Jewish. Regardless, my point still stands:

Jews *and* Goyim stop fetishizing Jews challenge. You can be Jewish and also fetishize our own culture. This was clearly a reaction to the Israeli Miku nonsense and if this is your response to art of an *Israeli* character existing (not even anything about i/p) then you are fetishizing us to make a point. And that’s just gross.

[lostthenfoundmyself]

You do realize that breaking into and occupying an administrative building while destroying property and wearing costumes is exactly what the rioters did on the January 6th attempted insurrection, right? Naming specific governing officers they hate, saying they “can’t hide,” claiming they’re justified because they’re the good guys fighting against the evil people in power.

The January 6th rioters were crazy because what they did was crazy. Not just because they thought Trump won the election.

I get that it’s university government buildings rather than US government buildings, but it’s a really, really clear echo. These protestors are not better just because you think they’re right.

[hilacopter]

if I see you saying stuff like "jews please call me out and correct me if I ever post something antisemitic!" you better be willing to actually listen and take to heart stuff you might not like hearing

[faggotry-enjoyer]

yknow what i think it's pretty fucked up that my instinctual reaction to hearing any mention of the holocaust is to brace myself for antisemitic talking points. in discussion about a jewish genocide.

holocaust inversion, universalization, minimalization, and denial are inexcusable in any context, and the fact that they've become this common is appalling on every level.

[moran-with-a-g]

Tell me, what would you think of someone who respected the Jewish people but genuinely believed that Israel is as bad as their old persecutors now?

That honestly depends on what you mean.

Part of respecting the Jewish people is respecting their right to exist in their homeland, have a country that fits their cultural needs, and knowing that that country's government actions are not a representation of the entire population.

Do they believe Israel's existence as a concept is as bad as Nazi ideology of scientific racism? Do they believe the Israeli government is as bad as Nazi Germany? Do they believe the treatment the IDF ia giving the Palestinian people is as bad as the pogroms the Jewish people went through throughout history?

When you say Israel, are you talking about the country, the government, the people, the military?

When you say as bad as their old persecutors, are you talking about the Nazis? About other people in history?

I have no issues with people who hate the Israeli government, I have no issues with people who hate the actions of the IDF, what I do have issues with is people who say "Israel" without specifying what they mean, and the people who see the need to compare "Israel" with "their old persecutors".

Because you can criticize the government and the military actions as much as your heart desires. I'm not fan of the current government, I'm also very much aware that the IDF is not an innocent force. But when you just say Israel, I would think that actually, you don't really respect Jewish people, because you don't make an effort to seperate the Israeli civilians from the actions of the military and the government.

Because for some reason, people have this obsession of comparing us to the groups who hurt us in the past. Because for some reason, they have this obsession of taking out trauma, our history, and comparing half of our people to those who who hurt us. They have the option of comparing Bibi to Putin, instead they choose Hitler. They treat our past as if it's a lesson we didn't learn, as if we were punished for some great evil we commited and still have yet to change. We're just as bad, if not worse, as the people who burnt away our history, our records and our lineage.

If they properly criticize the government, and the military, and they believe they deserve to be considered between of the worst in human history - while being able to seperate them from the people who live in Israel, the people who believe in Israel's right of existence, and they don't specifically compare them to persecutors of the Jewish people - then I wouldn't consider them antisemitic, and I would love to have a civil discussion with them, and I would probably be able to agree with at least some of what they have to say.

If they can't seperate the concept of Israel into people, government and military, and if they only compare them to persecutors of the Jewish people, while claiming they respect Jewish people - then they never bothered to listen to a Jew when they were told they're being antisemitic.

So you tell me, is that person actually respecting Jewish people, when they don't make the effort to understand what it is they're doing that's antisemitic and why?

[chaosisorderao3]

Me: "I think Jews shouldn't be murdered actually. I also think Palestinians shouldnt be murdered and this whole thing is fucked up"

Goy: "omg you're so Islamophobic you should be appalled with yourself never talk to me again"

[jewreallythinkthat]

This shouldn't be a hot take but if I replace the word "zionist" with "Jew" in you post, and it now looks like an excerpt from Mein Kampf, I don't think you can call yourself left wing anymore.

[nerdyqueerandjewish]

When I was in college I learned a lot about social justice from my peers and friends who were muslim women and I know that my experiences aren’t universal but a lot of the weird antisemitism wrt israel and zionism gets me because I’m like wait but didn’t everyone talk about not judging a whole group based on a government ? Or the most zealous believers of a religion or political cause ? No ? Just us at the weird little social justice school ? Sounds fake but ok

[siryyeet]

Oh you have complicated feelings towards Germany? Let me make 91836373 assumptions about it with my piss poor understanding of history, not listen to germans at all and then come to a horrendously bad and false conclusion on why that is! Also I think you germans should stop feeling guilty and be proud of your country again!

[watermelinoe]

i think it's kind of offensive to try to make holocaust denial about trans people but idk

[gingerswagfreckles]

It's crazy how I've stayed on this website for thirteen months of the most batshit Nazi antisemitism I've ever seen in my life but that the thing that is probably going to drive me off is seeing 70% of the like 12 people I still follow start suddenly super aggressively posting "won't somebody please think of the men!!" shit in the wake of the US elections and then 2 days later posting "my god it's crazy how all these hysterical BITCHES get soooo hysterical and upset just because we told them they need to think about how men are feeling at the worst moment for women's rights in recent history!!!"

[tzipporahs-well]

While OSP's videos are generally very good, they do fall a bit into the "Happy Dhimmi" myth.

Blue has an unfortunate tendency to gloss over Muslim antisemitism, and many of the wrongs of the Ottoman Empire.

Yes I would absolutely agree with that. I think some of it was addressed in the Maimonides (video made 3 years ago) and Medieval Spain and Al-Andalusia videos (5 years ago) where more fundamentalist Muslims (Almoravids and Almohads) started taking over, but there is still an overall sunny-ish outlook.

I think one of the problems is that it is a very prevalent myth that has been spread for many years where I see even history books pushing it (AP world history textbook looking at you) and academia debating if it was really that bad or if even The Pact of Umar was heavily enforced/strictly followed (it was really bad and saw variable enforcement dependent on the ruler’s whim).

Even our own history books pushed it, at least in the 19th century (see Heinrich Graetz) and/or play the comparison game (“it was not as bad as in Xtian lands.”) In the history book of A Short History of the Jews by Raymond P. Scheindlin (generally a good book; a book I had to read for my conversion), there is more about the “prosperous time” and our accomplishments in the chapter “The Jews in the Islamic World” (632 CE to 1500 CE) compared to the more negative stuff. Only later does it discuss how life for Jews severely deteriorated under Muslim rule even though dhimmi status was by in no way good. The fact that Jewish life in medieval Spain is even called the Sephardic Golden Age and a Sephardic Silver Age at all emphasizes how much our history…sucked.

I think one reason Jewish sources try to focus on “the good” is cultural. We are encouraged to look for and focus on the good even when our circumstances really suck. But when it is not based in truth, that’s where the problem lies.

We have to be willing to look our true history in the eye: the good and the bad. The way I see our dhimmi status in Muslim lands: we made the best of a bad situation where all options around us weren’t great especially by modern standards. We accomplished great things, but we still faced the yoke of oppressive dhimmitude.

The problem comes from when “not as bad as” (relative for the time period where treatment of Jews generally sucked and treatment varied dependent on state and ruler) turns into “good actually” especially in modern lenses, which is categorically untrue. If anything, the pattern of Jewish history in Muslim-ruled lands was eerily similar to the Xtian one (Aish). Jews were invited for a little bit as second class citizens under the ruler’s “protection.” Then when they got tired of us or we became too comfortable/“too big for our britches”, we got kicked out or killed…again.

At the very least, Muslim oppression of Jews was briefly touched on in the OSP summary video. It is an imperfect video while still better than certain other summary views on the topic.

Still, I do wish that the happy dhimmi myth was busted more.

[miraculouslumination]

The audacity to be like "there's a problem with racism in transandrophobia discussions" while also unironically using the term "transandrophobia truther(s)"

[whitesunlars]

maybe tumblr will listen if i speak its language: remember in 2020 when we all had to sit down and realize that everyone has internalized racism? that everyone has prejudices even if they don't realize it? being antisemitic is more than sitting around wearing a swastika saying you want jews to die. take a look inside yourself and you'll find antisemitism there, too. it's time to address it.

[sweetsynth]

I hate to have to state the obvious, but people know hating/'getting rid of ' Jews won't fix the world somehow - right? Believe me, that one's certainly been tried and tested