#discusses abuse and cluster B PDs

[eclaire-went-bam]

ppl, especially low/no-empathy ppl, who talk to ableist anti-pd cluster b abuse believers with the upmost patience & understanding are so crazy (/pos) for that because what

how do y'all sit there and level w/ them just. so much.

i know it's kind of necessary bcs even if they don't listen to us anyways, they're only gonna think we're 10× worse if we don't walk them through the spiel w/ hands held (which we're not even owed to do anyways) but like i can hardly see myself doing it

so like

respect

[granulesofsand]

Hazbin Hotel: Valentino

🗝️🏷️ RAMCOA, perpetration

I spent a few minutes trying to gather what the controversy around Hazbin Hotel entails, and I did not succeed. So I’m going to keep talking about it, because we already watched it and anyone who hasn’t can find video essays that explain far more than the blips of relevance in the show itself.

Valentino. He is actively engaging in trafficking and exploitation of others, and whether he is causing harm is not the question. He is.

It is the manner in which casual viewers cast judgement upon him that stings. Not ‘casual’ as in watching for fun, ‘casual’ as in unaffected by the themes of the media. People who have never been at either end of organized abuse in any capacity.

It comes back to the discussion of what it means when you talk about an archetype rather than a character. Valentino is an interesting character who can be analyzed in combination with techniques such as lighting, music, and motion. Traffickers and exploitative perpetrators are not the same. Traffickers and exploiters are real.

I can tolerate people relating those identities to the character of Valentino — it raises my hackles because I have trauma, not because of the conversation is necessarily offensive.

I don’t like when people take those traits and decide that Valentino is not redeemable or doesn’t deserve redemption, because we don’t know enough about Valentino to grasp how he became the perp he is — instead, people take the base knowledge that OA hurts people and demeans all perpetrators of OA.

We are perpetrators of OA. In our external reality, we were generationally involved in a religious organization that emphasized the spiritual value of harm. We have been tortured repeatedly until our abusers created a new self who would fit the role they needed. We have been hurt this way since we came into this world as a babe, and we have hurt others since we could walk.

That is a world, several worlds, of pain. It was inflicted because it had been so for hundreds of years, and none were capable of ending the cycle. We left, we are alive, because we got very lucky several times over.

And some of those selves — none of us went away after we formed — identify with Valentino. As it stands, the alignment with abusers (beyond immediate coercion) is familiar, and those selves don’t see media reflecting them often.

We are not perpetrating currently. We are in therapy and working together to heal, but it is slow, hard work. It lessens the shame to see what happened to us happened to others, and those selves were not being bad for surviving.

A lot of the ‘evil’ traits Valentino displays are cluster B Personality Disorder traits. People with cluster B PDs often adapted that way through trauma, because that was how they survived.

Giving those selves dignity and respect despite their behavior allows them space to reevaluate whether they still need those behaviors. They have to learn to override the automatic response they relied on for years, and for us they have to do that while dodging training and torture memories designed to keep them in their place.

We are real. Survivors, multiple or singlet, are real. And the only people who get to forgive perpetration are the victims and the perpetrators.

If you were not our victim, your opinion matters far less to us. If you were neither a victim nor a perpetrator, your opinion might as well not exist. It probably shouldn’t, unless you have some lived or learned experience you’re working off.

When you generalize statements about perpetrators, you are going to hit people who were coerced, adapted to survive, or never learned better. That could be the straw that breaks the camel’s back; healing is the worst, sometimes worse than living it the first time, and there are enough barriers without tossing in a poorly thought out comment in the mix.

Valentino exists only in the media and the interpretations of those who consume it. Survivors, including perpetrators, are real. Please try to be more gentle with heavy topics.

[clustered-bpd]

Hi I’m Bunni!

This is my Cluster B blog, I focus on talks about all PDs but mainly BPD

A little bit about me..

20 (real age in bio💕)

Pan/Demi / Genderfluid Enby

They/It only

BPD, ASD, MDD, GAD (and a couple others I don’t wish to discuss here)

I don’t have an extensive DNI- just don’t be an ass! Anyone with no age in bio/intro will be blocked! If you are an “abuse truther” (regarding disorders/disabilities) then you will also blocked!

This is a safe space for pwpds ✨

Have a lovely day! 💕

[goosegoblin]

Hey, a friend of mine has been in an awful abusive relationship and believes that this was caused by him being a narcissist. Now she spents a lot of time talking to me about how narcissists are these evil, irredeemable people and tbh, it makes me uncomfortable. You're the only person I've seen who hasn't taken that approach with the "scary" mental illnesses, and I was wondering how I should deal with this. Is it okay to see narcissists as sick people, rather than dangerous, or am I just (1/2)

 being naive, as my friend says? (2/2)

Ahh Christ, I hate this phenomenon. 

She’s almost certainly talking about narcissists in the pop culture, Reddit-y way that gives that label to pretty much all abusive or toxic people. Most groups using this word freely admit that they aren’t referring to NPD when they do so, but that doesn’t stop a lot of people from conflating the two.

It’s especially difficult because your friend has obviously had a really, really difficult and traumatic time, and that deserves respect. But honestly, focusing on ‘narcissists‘ to that degree does not sound like an especially healthy coping mechanism. Is she in therapy? Could you encourage her to get in therapy? Hopefully a therapist could help her work through her trauma while gently challenging the beliefs she’s built.

–

Because I’m anticipating unhappy replies to this post, I’d like to remind you all of the DSM 5 criteria for NPD:

NPD is defined as comprising a pervasive pattern of grandiosity (in fantasy or behavior), a constant need for admiration, and a lack of empathy, beginning by early adulthood and present in a variety of contexts, as indicated by the presence of at least 5 of the following 9 criteria:

- A grandiose sense of self-importance- A preoccupation with fantasies of unlimited success, power, brilliance, beauty, or ideal love- A belief that he or she is special and unique and can only be understood by, or should associate with, other special or high-status people or institutions- A need for excessive admiration- A sense of entitlement- Interpersonally exploitive behavior- A lack of empathy- Envy of others or a belief that others are envious of him or her

The majority do not refer to behaviour, but to internal thoughts and beliefs, because- surprise!- that’s how mental illness works. Anybody attempting to come into my inbox and pick a fight over ‘lack of empathy’ is going to have to first demonstrate to me that they know what ‘empathy’ means, because it does not in fact mean ‘being nice and good’. Empathy exists on a spectrum, and some of the best people I know experience relatively little (or no) empathy.

As for ‘interpersonally exploitive behaviour’, I have… some thoughts on that. I won’t go into them too much here, but some quick notes: that does not necessarily mean ‘abusive’, that is in no way unique to people with NPD, all social interactions are manipulative to some extent (patrexes has some really great stuff on that), that criterion is not necessary for diagnosis, and these are the symptoms of untreated NPD. We can critique people on behaviours without labelling a whole condition as ‘evil’.

By comparison, here’s the trait listen given on the most prominent N-related subreddit. How many of those are actually unique to NPD? In contrast, how many are just plain abusive behaviours?

Yet another reason I dislike this recent ‘He/she’s an N!’ craze is that it completely erases the abusive behaviours of people who do not have NPD. I’ve experienced toxic and borderline abusive behaviour from people who were hyperempathetic. I’ve been in toxic relationships with people who hated themselves and thought they were garbage. I’ve known many people whose untreated depression, ADHD or anxiety led them to behave in toxic and abusive ways. Why is NPD different?

And, as ever, if your mental health awareness and advocacy stops at ‘the people you think are the real crazies’, it’s pretty fuckin’ bad, and you should really find a different label for what you’re doing. We need to strive to talk about abuse and trauma without merrily throwing mentally ill people under the bus while doing so; we cannot move forward by throwing other groups behind.

xx

[myatuesday]

This case, man.

Idk what's more triggering @ this point,

The fact nobody will shut up about Heard supposedly having BPD

Or her blatant HPD jumping out the screen at us in real time.

-

I'm triggered AF. But I can't turn away.

The whole fucking thing makes my blood boil.

She, like every HPD bitch I've ever met, is a traitor to women and a menace to society.

-

The HPD element is triggering enough I'm actually seeking out someone to discuss it with who has been exposed to the toxic nature of HPD.

(No luck yet. It's, apparently, such a little known disorder... it seems nobody really even knows what it is. Sigh. FUCK. 😭)

I think it's especially hard when everyone sees and hears her behavior and believes it's BPD, when I'm like... holy fuck balls... she's histrionic AF.

It feels like... being victimized by someone w HPD all over again, basically.

-

See... now I'm crying. It's fucking with me that much.

I was bullied (I didn't see it as bullying at the time, just thought some girls were nice and some girls were fn cunts, even if they're your "friend") by girls w HPD basically half my life.

I don't want to name names, but this includes close girlfriends, girls who claimed to be my best friend, frienemies, and girls who actually were my best friend (for years) even if they were also in many ways my biggest adversary and subjecting me to constant bullying, and abuse, basically.

To have lived with these girls constantly ruining my life for literal decades

To be a grown adult, above all that shit

To now only have this bitch

Spitting in the face of actual survivors of DV, rape, etc

And on top of it all...

For the world to think that I am this type of person, because we supposedly share the same PD?!

It's a fucking nightmare.

I am nothing like this bitch.

Bitches like this tortured me.

She's torturing every survivor and every female with BPD as we fucking speak.

How can people think victims of her antics and of people like her... could possibly be like her?!

-

Idk how the fuck other people are wired, but I'm not a vindictive little cunt.

I don't get attention by hurting other people or even by attempting to take the attention away from other people (there's enough attention to go around).

And certainly the last thing in the world I would ever do is... God! Literally anything and everything she's doing right now!

It takes an incredibly, incredibly fucked up human being with A LOT more fn wrong with them than 2 gender-biased PDs to be pulling the shit this fucked up bitch is pulling.

-

That fucking video that's going around supposedly describing HPD & BPD does NOT describe BPD.

It very very clearly describes HPD & NPD, at great length. That Dr, for whatever reason, just decided to list all the features of a dog then call it a cat. And the world listened, as if this one fucking woman had all the answers.

Do you know that the rate of misdiagnosis is like 88%? 88%!

But this bitch, who met w Heard, for all of 2 fucking days has all the answers?

Obviously not.

That video describes at least one trait and/or symptom of every B-cluster disorder that exists.

But, if we're going to label that video, it is NOT a description of HPD & BPD. It is a description of HPD & NPD.

Anyone with google can look up the criteria.

This bitch fucked us all.

-

I'm obviously not on Amber's side, but this "doctor" didn't need to throw millions of women under the bus to prove her fucking point. Smh.

It's despicable.

This is hurting people.

My Twitter is full of women, on both teams, pleading to not be stigmatized by this BPD diagnosis.

We've always faced stigma, but this is on a grand scale.

And it's so damaging.

-

Shit finally seemed to be looking up.

BPD dx was looking to be a thing of the past.

They were realizing we had PTSD, CPTSD, spectrum disorders/neurodivergency.

All these years... they were wrong about many, many of us and we were on our road to redemption and recovery and support for our actual issues, finally...

Then this case happens. And it just cuts us at the knees.

Sigh

It's so fucked up.

-

I, technically, am no longer diagnosed with BPD.

My official files now say CPTSD (+ ADHD and shit, but for the sake of this conversation, that's kindof moot).

My therapist has been treating me for APD (formerly known as Aspergers) for awhile now. It's in my chart and insurance information, but I'm not technically officially officially diagnosed yet. Kindof a technicality.

But anyway

So... all in all

As of 2022, I just have CPTSD & ASD.

(Just. Ha.)

But, no. I'm no longer considered borderline. Maybe I never was.

But even if I were, at this time, I no longer meet BPD criteria (hallelujah). Regardless.

-

But still.

BPD was part of my identity for half of my life.

Plus, of course, I care about everyone else still in the struggle.

We're all in this community together.

We've been through so fucking much already.

Especially us old folks who realize we've been underdiagnosed and misdiagnosed our whole fucking lives.

There's a whole generation of us. All just trying to recover. And figure out, what now?

This is the last fucking thing we needed.

5 steps forward and 20 steps back.

-

Amber Heard's bullshit and one goddamn paid "doctor" get to do that to us?

Have we not been through enough?

I swear to god.

-

A lifetime screaming into the void.

I am not the only one.

THIS

IS NOT

JUSTICE.

[violentviolette]

Thank you for your response! i really appreciate your honesty.

no problem anon!

I know that it sounds dismissive to say "u dont have every cluster b PD" esp when talking to minors (no idea how old u are and the answer is the same either way but I see this discussion most wrt minors) but when I and other ppl with cluster b pds say that its not at all to invalidate or minimize or dismiss peoples pain

i am never doubting that people are meeting these criteria, I dont doubt that ur exhibiting these symptoms and feeling these ways. I believe people when they talk about what their experiencing. ur pain is real and it means there is something genuinely and seriously wrong that needs to be addressed

but when uve reached that level and are in that place where ur meeting every criteria, looking for a dx and seeing ur symptoms as coming from different places and individual disorders as opposed to tackling it as a whole that all stems from the same place of abuse isnt going to be productive or help u the way u need it to

[extremeexhaustion]

Analyzing Junko's Personality Disorder

*My psychology student is showing, oops

**Trigger warning for discussion of symptoms and mention of child homelessness

***Please be aware of yourself and your mental needs, this post isn't going anywhere, you can read it another time when you feel better

Background:

So, Personality Disorders or PDs aren't the most well understood mental conditions since personality itself is much more stagnant than a mental state. The current theory is that these extreme personalities develop as a coping mechanism in response to being raised in an abusive environment. There are also genetic factors, however it is widely agreed that nurture is the main factor that we know of.

Junko is a tricky case considering that she is right on the cusp of when a psychologist would diagnose a PD, but she is also at the right age that the onset of one would occur. PDs do not have an onset after young adulthood. Junko shows signs of at the age of a 2nd/3rd year high schooler which tends to fall into the ages of 15-17. Since her birthday is in December, we can assume that she turns 16 in her 2nd year of high school and likely 17 when the Danganronpa: Trigger Happy Havoc events occur. This puts her at the right age for a diagnosis to be given.

The positive part of this is that, while difficult to treat, PDs are treatable and attaining better patterns of interaction with the world to improve relationships are possible. People with a PD are not and I repeat not monsters at all. They are regular people who have difficulty interacting with the world in a healthy way. Understanding and support are both very necessary for a positive long-term turnout. This analysis is not at all meant to demonize people who happen to have a PD. Simply to look into the motivation and psychology of a character's actions.

How are PDs broken down?:

PDs are broken down first into general criterions then clusters and finally specific disorders. All of which are listed out in the DSM-5 which I will be using as a reference.

General criterions to have any PD includes the following:

-Enduring maladaptive pattern in 2 or more areas/systems (e.g., cognition affect, interpersonal functioning, impulse control)

-Patterns are inflexible and pervasive across a broad range of personal and social situations

-Clinically significant distress or impairment

-Stable/enduring since adolescence or earlier

-Cannot be accounted for as a manifestation or a consequence of another disorder

Now, we can address the three clusters which categorizes the specific disorders:

Cluster A - Odd/Eccentric

-Paranoid PD

-Schizoid PD

-Schizotypal PD

Cluster B - Dramatic/Erratic

-Antisocial PD

-Borderline PD

-Histrionic PD

-Narcissistic PD

Cluster C - Anxious/Fearful

-Avoidant PD

-Dependent PD

-Obsessive-Compulsive PD

Let's move onto Junko's symptoms now that we've established a baseline of information.

Symptoms:

Does Junko meet general criteria for a PD?

Criterion A - Enduring maladaptive pattern in 2 or more areas/systems (e.g., cognition affect, interpersonal functioning, impulse control)

Junko clearly has difficulty with at least 2 of her psychological systems. Her interpersonal functioning is impaired as well as her impulse control which can be seen in the creation of the killing game at all. This instability has been confirmed to have been enduring traits, however they did worsen during the course of the game.

Criterion B - Patterns are inflexible and pervasive across a broad range of personal and social situations

For this criterion, I had to base some of my assumptions off of Monokuma's behaviors as he acts as a vector for Junko to speak through. There is a definite consistency in her responses especially with the range of how brutal the deaths are, her reactions during the Despair Arc, and from what we are told of her childhood. She acts the same throughout every situation.

Criterion C - Clinically significant distress or impairment

Yeah, this was pretty simple to answer. Junko is the Ulimate Despair and tries to tear down everything around her. This is a clear impairment in normal functioning.

Criterion D - Stable/enduring since adolescence or earlier

It was stated that Junko had been experiencing these maladaptive patterns since she was a young child and it continued until her final years of high school. She meets this criterion.

Criterion E - Cannot be accounted for as a manifestation or a consequence of another disorder

From what we've seen of her, Junko does not display any other symptoms of a disorder except for perhaps DID. However, she lacks all of the required elements to be diagnosed with DID, so that does not apply. Her different "personalities" can be boiled down to theatrics.

What cluster does Junko fall into?

Junko falls best into Cluster B of Dramatic/Erratic as she does not show the more psychotic characteristics of Cluster A nor the high anxiety of Cluster C. This leaves us with four PDs: Antisocial PD, Borderline PD, Histrionic PD, and Narcissistic PD.

What Personality Disorder fits Junko best?

Now, it is possible to fit into multiple PDs due to the complexity of human personality. Antisocial PD does fit, however Junko would not be diagnosed with it until she turned at least 18 as per the requirement laid out by the DSM-5. Until then, her devious behavior would be categorized as Conduct Disorder. However, there is a PD we could diagnose her with at her current age.

Histrionic PD requires the presence of 5 or more of a list of signs given. Junko falls into 6 out of the 8 given. She displays a strong need to be the center of attention, rapidly shifting and shallow expression of emotions, use of physical appearance to draw attention to self, speech that is excessively impressionistic and lacking in detail, exaggerated, theatrical emotional expression, and misreads relationships as more intimate than they are. There isn't much evidence of her being over suggestible as she gets caught in her own wants to think about what others desire. There also isn't much evidence of inappropriate sexual behavior that we see besides maybe revealing attire which falls more into using physical appearance to draw attention.

Conclusion:

Junko Enoshima suffers from Histrionic PD and Conduct Disorder that will likely be diagnosed as Antisocial PD later on in life. This is most likely from her traumatic childhood where she had no parents and had to repeatedly fight to survive. There is also likely a neurobiological issue with her brain structure where she requires more stimulation than she was getting and in turn she latched onto a negative yet available feeling to fulfill that need.

Something excessively negative is turned into a positive in her mind. It is a canon fact that Junko did the killing game to show her affection for her friends. She wanted them to experience what brings her the most emotional fulfillment which is despair. She was using her maladaptive patterns that ended up destroying her friends as well as herself.

Sadly, Junko showed signs that she could have been helped with the assistance of a professional. I cannot emphasize how much the word professional is important here. None of her friends could help her, her crush couldn't help her, her sister couldn't help her because PDs are a serious mental health condition. It requires a large amount of CBT to work through. I won't lie, I am disappointed that I haven't seen anything working with Junko in this way. I might write about it, we'll see. The reason I'm so disappointed is that it is rare to see any positive representation of PDs. They aren't a pretty condition, no mental health issue is, but using them for villains is a little sickening especially when it's used in horror so often. People with PD aren't monsters and frankly we shouldn't treat them as such.

[intersex-ionality]

I think you're assuming too much good faith when you're stating that narcissism as a concept is distinct from NPD. Just because you don't conflate them doesn't mean that other people don't. People aren't just calling tyrants toxically selfish, they quite literally demanded #diagnoseTrump (with NPD, to prove he was unfit for office). Many of the "resources for survivors of narcissistic abuse" explicitly name-drop cluster B PDs as well, or list the DSM criteria of npd and bpd as signs of abuse.

Okay, I’ve decided that out of the anons I got yesterday, this one is probably a legitimate attempt to converse. You got the bad luck of being surrounded on all sides by death threats, hate mail, and general chicanery. While I’ve tried to calm myself down so that I can engage with you fairly, please try to forgive my if I get a bit acidic here.

Before we begin, I want to re-center the fact that this discussion was about whether the word “narcissist” should be dropped from the English language.

The “diagnose trump” movement was an ableist shitstorm. And that’s not the same thing as just using the word narcissist in casual conversation. The word came way before the diagnosis. The diagnosis is named after the word, not the other way around. And the word continues to have perfectly valid, non-diagnostic utility, as well as to simply be a common word.

Ableist movements that try to simultaneously claim that evil men are evil because they are sick, that sick people are all evil, and that being sick means you cannot be trusted, therefore anyone who cannot be trusted is sick? They’re conflating a harmless word, a harmless group of people, and massive scale war crimes. Something like “diagnose trump” was functionally trying ti both punish him for crimes, and simultnaeously, absolving him of any guilt for those crimes. It was a chaotic blame-shifting mess than hinged entirely on the idea that mentally ill people are monsters.

And a movement that hinges on calling the mentally ill all monsters, is abelist by definition.

But saying that those movements mean the word must be retired also conflates the word with the group of people.

This is not to suggest that the latter reinforces the former. Rather, both rely on inappropriately ascribing sameness to very different things.

And hey, maybe just making people stop saying “narcissist” would have some degree of positive impact. If you believe that, and you want to focus your activism towards that, I’m not going to be the one to stop you! Do as you like and as you will!

But it is not and will never be what I want to do with my own activism. I have other projects, goals, and actions that I am always going to prioritize over that.

If I spend my time saying, “you can’t ever say the word narcissist because it’s a medical term,” then when someone says sociopath instead, I need to now expand it to, “you can’t ever say the words narcissist or sociopath because […],” and so when someone says, psycho, I need to expand it again, “you can’t ever say the words sociopath, narcissist, or psycho […],” and when someone says, delusional I have to expand again, and when someone says crazy, I have to expand again. I will never stop expanding the list, and it will not only be a waste of my time, but it will become increasingly difficult to impossible for my audience to remember all the fine details of that ever-expanding list.

As such, I choose to focus on other kinds of writing. To say, “self-centeredness is a completely common, human trait that most people have, and it can drive people–especially people with a lot of power–to act in ways that are careless of the others around them, or the others living under their power. So, when someone is behaving carelessly, self-centeredly, that’s worth criticizing, worth stopping. People in power who make the conscious choice to harm others should have everything that gives them that power and enables that harm taken from them.

“In contrast, mentally ill people don’t choose to be mentally ill. And those compulsions can cause them to act in ways that are on the surface similar to the violent behaviour of tyrants and abusers, but those behaviours are not choices. They cannot be approached in the same way. Mentally ill people require the support to help them control their compulsions and to help them avoid situations which would set off those behaviours.

“Where evil and powerful people must have things taken to resolve the problem, mentally ill people must instead have things given–namely help and accommodation–to resolve the problem. Since these two groups require two very different approaches, one should not suggest that they are interchangeable. Rather than claiming people in power are incapable of being decent, acknowledge their choices as fucked up. Rather than suggesting mentally ill people are de-facto monstrous, acknowledge that they simply need accommodations that they often aren’t receiving, to help them deal with the internal stresses of mental illness.”

That way, I only have to make that explanation once, and it applies to every single use of mental illness as an insult. I can link back to it, and move on to other things, instead of repeating the same discussion for every new variation. It equips my audience with the skills necessary to examine any new slag or vocabulary that pops up and make an informed choice about the implications of those words without me needing to make a new bullet point and add it to a list of inviolate rulings. People who look at that explanation, who come to understand it, will make their own choices about what language to use.

But most of them will shy away from using obviously diagnostic language such as “psychopathy,” and will also has the tools to differentiate between harmless uses of overlapping terms, from manipulative attempts to conflate a group of mentally ill people with a group of violent criminals. They’ll be better equipped to understand the difference between someone saying, “my ex-boyfriend was so narcissistic, always getting on my case about my clothes/figure/hair making him look bad, so we broke up,” and saying, “my mother beat the shit out of me any time I did something that disappointed her; but hey, you know how narcissists are.”

For me, that’s more appealing, efficient communication and the more appealing final goal. It lets me focus on other things, like considering angles and details I had not previously considered on old subjects, or learning about new subjects.

That’s not going to be the case for everyone or every situation. Sometimes I don’t feel like making a big old explanation, so I ask the people around me, “as a favour, could you not complain about ‘The Borderlines at Work,’ and instead just talk about, IDK, whatever specific crap they pulled, instead?”

But this blog is a public space. I’m a private citizen, but I make these posts to have a public discussion on a public platform. So I write them for a public audience. I don’t want to ask personal favours of that audience. They have no reason to grant those favours, even if I did ask.

Different audiences, along with different situations, require different tactics.

[avpd-chekov]

:) thank you for allowing me to discuss this situation with you. Also I hope you'll feel better in time. Best wishes to you and your health xo

Np friend, i apparently also had a need to discuss this situation. And apart from some ignorant nts i dont think im going to be experiencing that much backlash. Belgium actually has a surprisingly well mental health system compared to most, and ive never had a doctor who has invalidated me. Im just really worried about people in less unfortunate situations. I have actually seen licensed doctors considered experts, on the internet, proclaiming that they diagnose cluster-b pds based on how toxic or even downright abusive their behaviour is

[the-courage-to-heal]

Well, the purpose of this blog is good: giving everyone a space where they can vent about suffered abuse But the way you're using it? So so wrong! You're making people believe that the ones with narcissistic pd and antisocial pd are monsters (btw you shouldn't treat these two like they're the same thing) I know that the ones with these disorders can act abusive sometimes but most of the experience people tell on here aren't even about diagnosed people I sincerely hope you'll try to understand

Narcissistic Personality Disorder and Antisocial Personality Disorder both fall into a category of personality disorders labelled as Cluster B. Cluster B personality disorders share certain common traits, but it’s very important to recognize that NPD and ASPD are completely separate personality disorders.

One of the first articles I shared on this blog highlighted the differences between the two disorders. You can read it here if you’d like. In the past I’ve also posted  the DSM-V criteria for diagnosing both NPD and ASPD. The goal of this blog is to help others truly understand the psychology behind narcissistic and antisocial personalities. As well as give them a space where they can safely talk about the abuse they’ve suffered. The outward similarities can make it easy to mix these disorders up, but I would never want anyone to misconstrue them as one and the same. 

I’ve spent five years of my life researching these disorders, and I’ve even took  some classes on this subject. I am the first to admit I’m not a psychologist, but I do believe I have acquired some knowledge about it. All of the professionals I have discussed the disorder with agree that the nature of NPD and ASPD is inherently toxic and exploitative. With the reassurance that psychology agrees on this school of thought, I think I’m doing a very good thing with this blog and I believe it has helped a lot of people recognize and break out of toxic relationships.

[bipolarbanshee-moved]

@poetic-poppy I don't really want to get into the nitty gritty of the situation because some of these issues involve communities I'm not a part of and some of it is from communities where I'm either on the fence or haven't learned enough to comment. But here's a bit of what I've seen. In the DID community there's been a lot of discussion about what constitutes DID and who can or cannot claim to have DID. There's some overlap here regarding anti/pro self-diagnosis too. In the BPD, and other cluster B, communities there's been a lot of discussion about abuse: what is abusive, are people with cluster B PDs at higher risk to abuse, etc. And some other stuff I might blog about later if I come across anything.

[unillustratedadventures]

Interpersonal Toxicity: Categorising Abuse by its Immediate Causes and Recognising Covert Abuse

When it comes to the reasons or motives of the abuser, I suspect that all cases of abuse and interpersonal exploitation can be divided into just two categories, without remainder: psychopathic cases, and narcissistic cases. By this I do not mean that only psychopaths and extreme narcissists abuse or exploit others. Nor do I mean that abuse and interpersonal exploitation are only committed by individuals who have the associated Cluster B personality disorders (roughly, antisocial PD in the former case, and either narcissistic, borderline, or histrionic PD in the latter case). Psychopathy and narcissism are both dimensions of personality along which everybody has some value or other, even if this value is within the normal range. Moreover, the labels ‘psychopathic’ and ‘narcissistic’ can be generalised in a relatively straightforward way to constructs other than personality traits—e.g. to isolated actions, and even to complex social systems. So, what I mean by the claim that all abuse and interpersonal exploitation is either psychopathic or narcissistic is, roughly, that all abuse and interpersonal exploitation either results from something for which the label ‘psychopathic’ would be appropriate, or results from something for which the label ‘narcissistic’ would be appropriate.

Very roughly, 'psychopathic’ pertains to the absence of empathy and to shameless entitlement (including an entitlement to violate others’ boundaries, and to avoid or refuse accountability). In contrast, 'narcissistic’ pertains (again, very roughly) to the obstruction or misdirection of empathy—usually in defense of one’s own ego or self esteem, or to avoid feelings of shame—which leads to the violation of others’ boundaries and the avoidance or refusal of accountability.

Roughly-speaking, to abuse or exploit another person is to do any of the following things:

(i) To knowingly, deliberately, and needlessly violate the person’s boundaries.

(ii) To prevent the person from establishing or enforcing her boundaries.

(iii) To avoid, or refuse to acknowledge, that one has violated the person’s boundaries when one has done so.

(iv) To avoid or refuse to: make amends, help pick up the pieces, provide closure, or face the music (whichever is appropriate) when one has violated the person’s boundaries.

Accordingly, someone will have abused or exploited another person psychopathically just in case he has done any of these things knowingly and deliberately, without remorse or regret. Depending on the extremity of the behaviour, instances of psychopathic abuse or exploitation are actions that one might ordinarily describe as sadistic, cold-blooded, or evil. To put it briefly, to commit a psychopathic action is to deliberately and unnecessarily hurt, violate, or exploit another person, despite knowing that this would occur.

As mentioned, one need not be a psychopath (i.e. high in trait psychopathy) in order to commit a psychopathic action, in the relevant sense. Indeed, psychopaths might be construed as individuals who are persistently and strongly disposed to performing psychopathic actions, as evidenced by a history of doing so. One’s level of trait psychopathy roughly equates to the extent to which one is persistently disposed to performing psychopathic actions. Equivalently, one can think of this as: one’s level of trait psychopathy roughly equates to the likelihood, over time, of situations that would be sufficient for one to act psychopathically. Regardless of their extremity, those who are above average in trait psychopathy will regularly and intentionally hurt and use others (sometimes just for the sake of it), and pervasively lie in order to get what they want or to get out of trouble.

In contrast, someone will have abused or exploited another person narcissistically just in case she has done any of the above things, (i)–(iv), because of a defensive drive, impulse, or mechanism that is inappropriately motivating or inappropriately triggered . As discussed, a psychopathic action is, by definition, both deliberate and performed in anticipation of its negative consequences. In contrast, a narcissistic action need not be deliberate—at least not in the same sense. With a narcissistic action, it is possible for there to be a sense in which the actor is not in full control of her action at the time of acting, or does not fully understand the negative consequences of her action at the time of acting. (Regardless of the level of control or awareness, a narcissistic action qualifies as an instance of abuse or interpersonal exploitation.) When a narcissistic action is performed both deliberately and knowingly, it also qualifies as a psychopathic action—for it meets the necessary and sufficient conditions outlined above. It is narcissistic because its immediate cause is a defensive drive, impulse, or mechanism that is dysfunctional. However, it is psychopathic because the actor is aware of the negative consequences of his action, has sufficient control over the action that he need not have performed it, and yet performed it anyway (in service of the defensive drive, impulse, or mechanism). Alternatively, a narcissistic action might be triggered by the relevant defense mechanism contrary to the actor’s more stable desires and intentions. It is also possible that the narcissistic defense mechanism affects the actor’s representations rather than her behaviours, such that, at the time of acting, the actor mistakenly believes that her action is appropriate, justified, or will not have the relevant negative consequences, despite this being in contradiction to what she would otherwise have believed.

Again, one need not be a narcissist (high in trait narcissism) in order to commit a narcissistic action. Narcissists might be construed as individuals who are persistently and strongly disposed to performing narcissistic actions, as evidenced by a history of doing so. One’s level of trait narcissism roughly equates to the extent to which one is persistently disposed to performing narcissistic actions. Equivalently, it roughly equates to the likelihood, over time, of situations that would be sufficient for one to act narcissistically. Regardless of their extremity, those who are above average in trait narcissism will regularly hurt and use others, whether this is fully deliberate or not. They will also have unstable mood (they are prone to disproportionate rage in response to perceived criticisms or slights, for example), and they will be inconsistent in what they say and do. Whether fully deliberate or not, a narcissist routinely makes and breaks promises, and her actions often do not match her words. (This is the case even when the relevant actions are themselves words; which is just to say that a narcissist is inconsistent in what she says.)

Above, I discussed how the same action can be both psychopathic and narcissistic. Relatedly, it should be clear that the same individual might be comorbid in psychopathy and narcissism—i.e. high in both trait psychopathy and trait narcissism. Indeed, this looks to be the rule rather than the exception. Even if a psychopath fails to be sufficiently high in trait narcissism to qualify as a narcissist, he will almost certainly be at the higher end of the normal range. Likewise, mutatis mutandis, for narcissists. A cormorbid psychopath/narcissist is strongly and persistently disposed to performing both psychopathic actions and narcissistic actions (regardless of whether these are the very same actions).

All other things being equal, it is arguable that the most destructive among the abusive or exploitative actions are covertly narcissistic actions. These are actions which qualify as narcissistic in the above sense—i.e. they are abusive or exploitative actions that are immediately caused by a defensive drive, impulse, or mechanism. However, they are covertly narcissistic inasmuch as their targets (or else everyone but their targets) are either unaware or uncertain that they are in fact abusive or exploitative in nature. This can be because of the nature of the narcissistic action itself. Alternatively, it can also be because the actor has brought about a context in which the abusiveness or exploitativeness of the action cannot be reliably recognised (even though it would otherwise have been recognisable as an abusive or exploitative action).

Of course, while covertly narcissistic actions are especially dangerous and insidious, it is only possible for certain kinds of actions—or certain kinds of actions in certain kinds of contexts—to be covertly narcissistic. There are actions that are going to be overtly abusive or exploitative in most contexts (including those that the actor might have brought about). In contrast, there are varieties of emotional and psychological abuse that are intrinisically difficult to recognise at the time that they are happening. But it is typically obvious that, e.g., instances of physical, sexual, or verbal abuse, or instances of lying, infidelity, or sudden abandonment in a context of love and trust, are indeed abusive or exploitative actions. And yet, even in such cases, there are still contexts that the actor might bring about, in which the target will be unable to reliably recognise that the relevant actions are abusive or exploitative, or at least in which the target will be unable to fully understand the extent of the abusiveness or exploitativeness. This is usually achieved by way of a form of subtle psychological abuse called 'gaslighting’. Over time, gaslighting functions to alter or distort the way in which the target represents the abuser, the situation, herself, or her thoughts or feelings. When gaslighting is psychopathic (regardless of whether it is narcissistic), it constitutes a deliberate attempt to violate and control the target, so that the gaslighter can get what he wants, or escape accountability for what he does. When gaslighting is both narcissistic and non-psychopathic (which is to say, not deilberate in the relevant sense), it is always the result of defense mechanisms such as psychological projection and splitting.

Given how destructive covertly narcissistic actions can be (in light of the fact that they are difficult to recognise), it is ideal for one to be equipped with tools for picking up on the subtle cues or warning signs of covertly narcissistic abuse. There are various specific behaviours that one might learn to spot. However, I shall instead keep things rather general and abstract. I.e. there is a certain broad type of interpersonal situation or dynamic in which covertly narcissistic actions are inevitable. By learning to spot this situation or dynamic, one will be better able to recognise and avoid covertly narcissistic actions across the board.

Let’s again consider (i)–(iv). These are the different broad ways of abusing or exploiting another person, regardless of whether the abuse or exploitation is deliberate and knowing (i.e. psychopathic) or defensively triggered despite contrary goals (i.e. narcissistic and non-psychopathic). To oversimplify, (i)-(iv)—and hence abuse and interpersonal exploitation more generally—are about violating, obstructing, or avoiding accountability for another person’s boundaries. WIth this in mind, the relevant kind of interpersonal situation or dynamic—the one in which covertly narcissistic actions are inevitable—is roughly the kind of situation or dynamic in which the abuser’s violation, obstruction, or avoidance with respect to the target’s boundaries are reframed in terms of the enforcement of the abuser’s own boundaries. This can make it difficult to determine right from wrong, especially when one is embedded in the situation. However, luckily, there are ways to tell that a person is reframing things in this way, whether deliberately (psychopathically) or purely defensively (purely narcissistically). Roughly-speaking, you can tell that a person is reframing things in this way if that person’s purported boundaries just so happen to silence you, control you, or prevent you from stating or enforcing your own boundaries.

This asymmetry in the nature of the boundaries is an effective way to distinguish the abuser from the target, in cases of covert abuse. The abuser’s purported boundaries just so happen to prevent compromise, discussion, or cooperation with the target, with respect to the target’s own boundaries. In effect, then, a person is being (covertly) narcissistically abusive, and will continue to be abusive in this way, so long as she keeps treating any attempt at issue resolution or honest discussion as though it is itself an abusive or violating act (needless to say, it is not). By doing this, she brings about a toxic situation that automatically privilieges her own purported boundaries no matter what, and in which roles are automatically reversed and blame is automatically shifted onto the target.

Not all covertly narcissistic actions are predicted by such a situation. However, it is plausible that this kind of situation does predict the only such actions that can be predicted. Overtly abusive actions are brazen in their violation, obstruction, and avoidance. I.e. they are readily seen as abusive or exploitative. In contrast, covertly abusive actions either violate, obstruct, or avoid in a manner that is not immediately obvious, or they violate, obstruct, or avoid in a context that distorts the perception of the observer. By definition, covertly narcissistic actions of the former kind are intrinsically difficult to recognise, and so there is little that one can do in the way of forewarning. However, covertly narcissistic actions of the latter kind always arise in interpersonal situations or dynamics of the sort that is described above, and for this reason they can be recognised and predicted.

I have only characterised this toxic kind of interpersonal situation or dynamic in a fairly abstract way. In light of this, I shall make the matter more concrete—and, I hope, more practically helpful—by breaking it down into a few slogans. These slogans are closely tied to the broad types of abuse and exploitation that are mentioned above, (i)–(iv). The slogans pertain specifically to the covertly narcissistic means of abusing or exploiting in the relevant ways. When taken together, the slogans serve to characterise the covertly toxic situation or dynamic. To this end, it might be worth internalising the following slogans, in order to sidestep covertly narcissistic actions:

A. It is toxic and entitled to think, or to insist, that the mere statement, clarification, or enforcement of another’s boundaries somehow violates your own.

B. It is toxic and entitled to think, or to act as though, one can violate others’ boundaries simply because one has prevented these boundaries from being properly stated or clarified.

C. When one has violated another person’s boundary, it is toxic and entitled to think, or to insist, that it violates one’s own boundaries to raise this matter, or to try to discuss this matter, or to try to resolve the associated conflict or tension.

D. It is toxic and entitled to punish the violation of a boundary, or to strictly enforce a boundary that violates the boundaries of others, when this boundary is idiosyncratic or non-obvious, and one has refused to state it or clarify it.

It is abusive to do any of A–D, within any interpersonal relationship or interaction. However, when one combines A–D, it amounts to acting as though one can do whatever one wants, regardless of the cost to others, and without any accountability or any repercussions. Moreover, it amounts to covertly acting in this abusive and entitled manner, by way of framing one’s abuse and exploitation of others as the defense of one’s own rights or boundaries, and by casting other’s attempts to defend or protect themselves as acts of abuse or violation. Accordingly, the person who combines A–D brings about a situation in which their narcissistic actions can be covert. The situation allows for this because it silences, coerces, and shifts the apparent blame onto the target of the genuinely abusive actions.

[talontedace]

|NPD|

[ I’m angry at the continued villanisation of NPD in media/articles written by people who clearly don’t deal with the symptoms themselves. And I’m also tired of NPD being seen as this ‘cool edgy’ thing to have bc it’s really not so I’m going to make this post about Narcissistic Personality Disorder (NPD). I have co-morbid BPD/NPD so I experience it differently but the things stated here are commonly experienced/exhibited traits. I want to stress that individuals with Cluster B pds are NOT inherently abusive! Some symptoms exhibited in said PDs can have the potential to be toxic or unhealthy if and only if, the individual is unwilling to recognise, acknowledge and work on them. NPD TRAITS:  PROJECTED EGO =/= ACTUAL SELF-ESTEEM People with NPD are capable of projecting/displaying an extremely confident, egoistical and even arrogant attitude. But ego is not genuine self confidence and truth be told - It’s not so much as wanting to be perfect but NEEDING to be perfect and ‘better’ than others or you’ll want to die because what’s the point/value of you existing otherwise?

It’s also going to extreme self-destructive means to achieve this idea of perfection because the validation from others is what makes you feel solid, whole and invincible. Like you’re actually worth everything.  And not being able to stop because without the assurance/validation, you’ll start having to recognise that inside you’re just nothing but emptiness. Not to mention, the same perpetual feeling of hollowness can also drive you to addiction, suicide ideation and other self-destructive tendencies.

PERSISTENTLY LOW EMPATHY If sympathy is ‘I understand how you feel’, then empathy is ‘I feel what you feel’. People with NPD are able to understand when others feel bad, but can’t actually feel so coming up with the right emotional responses to validate others or soothe others is a big challenge. It’s a struggle to relate to others with an average or high level of empathy since we do not feel as strongly or care about certain issues and can’t react with appropriate amounts of concern for everything. Constantly struggling and searching for the ‘right’ things to say takes on a heavy emotional toll. 

It’s difficult to remain warm and engaging for everyone all the time, even though that’s what people want/need most of the time. People with NPD can only be warm and engaging to a few select people for a short period of time before getting tired/irritable/develop the impulse to hurt the people depending on them because it’s too much. UNSTABLE RELATIONS Forming meaningful and long-lasting relations can be quite difficult not just for reasons above but also because people with NPD experience trouble reaching out and connecting with others when they are genuinely in distress because it reveals vulnerabilities that can be exploited and weaknesses that ‘shouldn’t exist’. There’s also a need to appeal to people by finding out what they desire the most and trying to fit into their desired image instead because the need to be adored is so intensely strong, but being unable to keep up the change and ultimately growing resentful or burning out.  VIOLENT IMPULSES/AGGRESSION Depending on the individual, some exhibit violent impulses and aggression on a more regular basis. Others tend to exhibit such reactions (narcissistic rage) when a perceived threat to their self worth/self esteem (injury) occurs. For example: Logically understanding that someone is jokingly making fun/putting them down in a lighthearted manner but being consumed with rage and a vengeful need to hurt back emotionally bc of perceived injury and threat to self esteem (see: need to be perfect or ‘death’).  It is a thing that exists and a problem that needs acknowledging + working on.

SELF-REGULATION SUGGESTIONS - Keep a folder of the positive feedback you have received from others and consistently update them so you have something to fall back to whenever necessary.  -Make alternative arrangements that work with your low empathy. For example- asking your close circle of companions to give you a heads up/ask if it’s okay to vent to you. This gives you the option to say no when you can’t muster up enough emotional wellness for warmth. Additionally, make sure to foster/maintain healthy relations by choosing to do other things that can help the emotionally distressed- going on walks, watching shows, discussing ideas etc. Whatever helps your companion release distress without building frustration on you. -Validate yourself. Understand that having aggression, violent impulses/thoughts doesn’t make you ‘lesser’. There is no right or wrong when it comes to feelings, what counts are actions. Feel them, but also let them pass. Practise mindfulness and find out what causes your narcissistic rage.  -Find out what you can actually do that can be seen as positive influences and work on refining those qualities. For example, you may not have strong empathy, but you can talk people out of self-destruction, rationalise guilt for others so they can perform basic self care without feeling bad etc etc. Remember that there are many ways people show care and while you can’t do it one way, there are things you can do.  -If you have a tendency to lash out (become vengeful) when narcissistic injury is incurred, experiment and develop coping mechanisms. Remove yourself from the situation and contemplate the detriments of your lashing out on BOTH yourself and the person involved (the damage it does to your relationship, your future and your reputation). Reminding yourself that you are better than that, that you do not have to seek revenge or scheme to feel better or good about yourself when you are already good and better than that can help in certain situations. Remind yourself that you are above stooping to low tactics and that person is not worth your time/energy/notice. ( “Why become a second rate version of yourself over someone who’s not important/essential to you?” etc). Further remove intense emotion by distracting yourself by indulging in hobbies or talking to people who actively interest you and are able to offer validation/affirmation. -Understand that slip ups happen since taking control over impulses to lash out is notoriously difficult. But continue practising and making use of reminders. Take responsibility whenever necessary.

[intersex-ionality]

Would you be willing to tag the existing any any future posts discussing, in particular, the areas where personality disorders and abuse overlap or might appear to overlap/what words people use to describe those cases or their reactions to them? If it's easier, just a blanket tag for PD discussions would be perfectly serviceable. I don't know how better to articulate which parts are super duper triggering because right now it's kinda just all of it

Yes, I can create a general tag for discussions of PDs, and I will try to remember to use it. I might suggest blacklisting terms like borderline and cluster-B as well. As nice as it is that tumblr has an integrated blacklist feature, I definitely recommend using a third party one like New Xkit if you can, since they allow for much broader blacklisting, as well as giving you the option to see who a post was from and why it was blacklisted, so that you can specifically avoid discussions of PDs from my blog, while still seeing other, more positive, discussions on other blogs.