#descendants meta

[isleofdarkness]

Do you honestly think that the Aks are being completely brainwashed? Like they were being told that the vks were evil?

TL:DR; yes, though not completely. I think they've just been fed a lot of propaganda and a lot of facts have been left out of their education. Because that's really the only thing that makes sense.

In this essay I will be drawing from my school experiences as well as those of my brothers and friends. I will also being drawing from my mother's experiences, as hers are the same but her school was far larger than my first high school (graduating class of both of my high schools was less than 100. Her graduating class was over 7,000.) Also I've been working on this for an hour so it might not make that much sense.

I think they were definitely being fed a lot of propaganda and that they had no idea how bad conditions on the Isle were. I also don't think it ever occurred to them that the villains would be terrible parents. Why would it? All of their parents seem to love them and I doubt they have education on what abusive parenting is because, let's face it, I can name a few that are probably abused (Jane, Ben, etc.) I think they were misinformed, probably actively lied to by the monarchy, and that's why they thought the Isle kids were going to be evil.

Look, if they just had the notion that the Isle kids would be evil because of their parents, their minds would have changed far sooner. Teenagers are petty but not like that. If they knew what the Isle was like, knew what abuse from a parent was, I don't think they would have actively hated the Isle kids like they did. Jay and Carlos- okay, maybe their first impression was a bit of a what the fuck moment, but they were literally boys being boys. And then they both go for tourney and Jay is an incredible player, he clearly has the time of his life, does his dorky little victory dance.

Then Coach calls him over and Jay comes over looking like he expects to get a verbal smack-down. When Coach praises him, Jay lights back up. And the entire thing... that's just not normal. The way Jay deflated was just too much for a usual "oh great, a teacher's gonna yell at me," his joy completely vanished and he looked almost scared. And then Coach praised him and Jay nervously smiled as though he still expected to be yelled at. It's only when Coach welcomes him to the team that Jay seems to reignite, grinning like he just won the Olympics. From that tiny bit of relief and that tiny bit of praise, Jay went from somber and silent to absolutely thrilled, and the way those tiny things caused such extremes raises a red flag for me.

Carlos, however, sucks at tourney. He's terrified, audibly screams and panics, and that's not normal, either. A nerd in gym class will be a bit nervous and awkward, sure, but I've never seen a nerd full-on panic the way Carlos did. And yeah, maybe that could be a confirmation that Jay is violent and Carlos knows it, but the way Carlos reacted. He didn't run away. He didn't throw his stick directly at Jay, just at his feet as though trying to scare him away. When that doesn't work, he hunkers down, taking cover behind his shield rather than literally taking two steps to the side. That's not a normal reaction. None of that is normal, not even for a nerd in gym class. Even if he realized that Jay was way bigger, stronger, and faster, that's still not a normal reaction. No, that was 100% fight-flight-freeze-fawn, and the way Carlos pretty instantly went to fawn raises red flags with me. Fawn isn't like the other three. The first two are seen as simple adrenaline responses, freeze raises some eyebrows but can also just be an adrenaline response that's just a bit abnormal, but fawning is pretty much always seen as a trauma response. All literature on fawning calls it a trauma response- either present trauma, such as getting jumped and badly beaten, or past trauma. No present trauma, so that leaves past trauma. Again, could be with Jay, but that's still not normal.

But sure, maybe Auradon kids haven't taken intro to psychology like me and couldn't pick up on the fawn thing. What did Carlos even do? He was just sitting there the entire movie? Then he adopted a dog and didn't try to skin it? Carlos was very clearly not a threat- they didn't know he was a genius, after all. But they still treated him like a villain. They were still afraid of him for no reason. That doesn't really make sense to me, it's not a reaction to new information I would expect from high schoolers. Sure, maybe he'd get bullied, but the nerd friend group would open up to him. Clubs would become available. Maybe a study group or a tech guys group. None of that. Despite him not being a threat, they held onto the idea that he was dangerous despite all evidence to the contrary and kept excluding him. That tells me they had been told beforehand, a lot, for many years, that anyone on the Isle was evil. That way, when Isle kids did come over, they assumed Carlos was an evil villain despite all evidence to the contrary and excluded him.

Evie... what did she even do? Was she too pretty? Too smart? Let me tell you about high school boys as someone who was a high school boy a few years ago- they flirt. They like to see which girl will turn red with a glance, a few words, a simple touch. They like to ask girls out just to prove they can- sometimes they even ask girls out as a joke, which is really fucked up bullying done to girls seen as undateable. A large amount of them would jump on the chance for a date, a night, and/or a relationship with a pretty girl. And Evie is an extremely pretty girl. And yet they stay clear. Chad and Doug are the only two that take interest- Chad, who sees someone he can manipulate because he could probably tell she had been making eyes at him, and Doug, who was also from the gutter (dwarf kin, nerd, not all that hot,) but who, very importantly, spent a lot of time around her and actually knew her as a person. And that's all, despite Evie pretty clearly not being in a relationship as Chad sure never spent any time around her. Notably, Chad's friends never hit Evie up for homework. I've no doubt he was bragging all about it, but they never hit her up for an easy way out of homework. Evie is an easy girl to get a date with and an easy girl to manipulate, as she's so desperate to please her mother by getting a prince, but no one really takes advantage of any of that other than Chad. Even though she hadn't done anything, they still stayed away from her. Whether it was hatred or fear I don't know, but it's strange behaviour from all of the boys in an entire high school.

Mal... don't remember her doing anything before the whole hair spell thing. All I remember her doing is Jane's hair, magically. Then Lonnie walks in and asks for her hair to be changed even though "I know you're like, evil and all." Mal hadn't even done anything but Lonnie called her evil, which, yeah, could just be a simple preconceived notion- at my school, we thought the transfer from our "mortal enemy" (yes, midwestern schools apparently have mortal enemies with other schools in the area) school was some kind of plant. She joined the football team (American football) and it was like, great, she's going to sabotage us. But then she played football like everyone else and we realized that she wasn't a plant and she pretty quickly assimilated into the middle school. When the kids from other schools came over and didn't do shit to bring down our school, we relaxed within a few weeks and they assimilated easily. Mal has been there for more than a few weeks, not doing anything, but still hasn't assimilated. Even when she helps people with her hair spell, she still doesn't assimilate. Even when she starts dating Ben, who seems to be extremely popular, she still doesn't assimilate. They don't try to assimilate her. I know I keep saying assimilate like they're the Borg, but assimilating into a new high school is a good thing. It means you get friends to sit with at lunch, clubs and "elite" classes you can take (such as this business class at my school, which the teacher had to invite you to join. People would always get the teacher to let their friends join because it was a very easy class,) jobs, and, most importantly in this example, general acceptance from the school at large. Mal, despite doing nothing, then starting to help people, then starting to date the popular guy, never seems to assimilate. She never gets general acceptance from the school.

None of them do.

I need to stress that, in the first movie, the Isle kids hadn't done anything. If you haven't done anything, it's fairly easy to assimilate (in my experience, the only people who had trouble assimilating were narcs (as in snitches, not people with NPD.)) In fact, there's usually at least one friend group that literally exists to help people assimilate- some extrovert keeps adopting all of the loners into the group and that's a huge part of them assimilating. Don't let those high school dramas fool you, it is not hard to assimilate and you will almost always be assimilated whether you like it or not. But the Isle kids, who have never done anything, do not assimilate. They are outsiders for pretty much the entire movie and seem to still be outsider'ed in the books. The Auradon kids really stick to the idea that these kids are evil despite all evidence to the contrary. It takes them a long time to warm up and some of them, a seemingly not insignificant portion, never do. That's not normal high school behaviour and I speak as the guy who literally came to a new school in a sundown town dressed like a punk and still found a friend group within two weeks.

High schoolers are a pack species and when someone doesn't have a pack, they try to find them a pack or an existing pack opens up for them. And there are all of these inter-pack relations- the gamers are cool with the geeks, the geeks are cool with the nerds, the popular girls are actually usually cool with the weird kids, the weird kids are cool with the Edgy TM (the punks, goths, and emos, may be in one group or in multiple depending on how big the population is) kids- there's a whole political system going on in high schools. There may be a Switzerland group that kind of keeps to themselves, but the other groups will usually stand up for them on the basis of "they never did anything to harm anyone." A North Korea group, which is a group that is largely disliked by the population but does have an ally or two, is super rare and they've always done something- in my school, that group was made of narcs. The Isle kids seem to make up a North Korea group, largely isolated due to dislike from the general population but with a few allies. But, again, they haven't done anything. High school kids aren't just going to force an innocent group of new but peaceful (and actually beneficial) people to be a North Korea group.

But if high school kids aren't like they are in high school drama movies, why are the Isle kids exiled as hard as they are?

Simple, because the Auradon kids have been fed incomplete facts, misinformation, and propaganda for their entire lives.

Yes, I know, this is probably actually the creators refusing to acknowledge what high school is actually like, but I am going to maliciously comply with suspension of disbelief because I hate Disney. I am going to pretend they did everything for an in-canon reason. And the in-canon reason, due to all of what I've outlined above, can only be false teachings from Auradon because high school kids are not like this.

[thebluestbluewords]

per my last unhinged missive

A few more notes about the United States of Auradon!!

Auroria:

It’s a city, but it has a royal family!! This is confirmed to be where Audrey and Aurora live!

Located in South Riding, which is presumably one of the nineteen regions

Southeast of Auradon City

Charmington:

this is where Snow White and Florian live, NOT where Cinderella and her family live.

“Everyone in this region is incredible”

Charmington is a region, but Auroria is a city. Makes sense.

Triton’s Bay:

A WEEK journey??

No mention of if this one is a city or a region. I’m tempted to say city, but that’s only because I want Ariel and Eric’s kingdom as a whole to be a region, and this to be a city within that.

If Triton’s bay is fantasyland Miami Beach, Ariel’s kingdom should logically be Florida.

Mermaids live in Florida.

[auradons-trash-heap]

I asked some people about Lonnie's ROAR plot in D2 and most responses I got were saying that is poorly written or plain stupid. What do you think?

It’s not something I’ve spent a lot of time thinking about tbh. It’s a subplot, so it was never going to be given a lot of time or development to focus on Lonnie. I’ve seen a post of someone else pointing out that giving her this girlboss moment does nothing to fix the underlying sexism of the “a leader and ___ men” being interpreted as a gendered statement in the rulebook, and that’s true, but the whole subplot was probably developed around one of the writers coming up with that loophole line idea & finding it very clever.

The fact that it ties Lonnie into the main plot with Jay witnessing her fencing skills makes it a decent subplot that gives Lonnie more screentime; a good thing as she seems to be a well liked character. Thinking about it for more than 2 minutes drops the bottom out of any girl power anti-sexism messaging that they were trying to portray for sure, tho

[dragoneyes618]

What happens to the Isle kids and their family after D3?

I know the popular idea is “all the VKs get to go to Auradon and live with nice families and have an actual future.” But is that what would happen? What if some of the kids actually want to stay with their parents, or at least to visit them?

Yes, villains don’t love their kids. But not all the Isle kids necessarily know that, or believe that.

Why is it so difficult to get children of abusive parents to acknowledge the abuse, even when something is clearly wrong? Because there is still the belief and hope that “She promised this is the last time, if I do more/behave better he’ll really love me,” etc. If the Isle kids leave their parents to the Isle, they’re giving up any vestige of hope they may have that one day their parents will acknowledge their love for them.

Also, it is possible to not be a good parent and still care about your children. They may not be able to raise them, but they may still want to see them.

And also, put it this way. It’s not exactly easy to be a parent on the Isle. You know how you’re in a bad mood if you didn’t eat all day? How you’re ill-tempered if you don’t feel well? How you snap at everyone after you had a fight with your best friend? How you go around under a black cloud after a grand plan you had failed to materialize?

Multiply that by twenty years, and how good of a parent do you think you would be? The Isle does not get adequate food or medicine, most people there hate each other, and they are all living in disgrace after their plots failed. Take them off the Isle and put them in different circumstances - enough food for everyone in the family, for one thing - and it’s entirely possible that some of them may turn out to be better parents.

All this means that the Isle kids, and even some Isle parents, may very well want to stay with each other, or at least to see each other sometimes. How would this all play out?

[palaceoftheprophets]

I am feeling fine and perfectly normal about them. :)))))))

[little-pondhead]

Your Ancient History, Written In Wax

-

Danny knew he should have put better security around the Sarcophagus of Eternal Sleep. It wasn’t even Vlad who opened it this time! The fruitloop was too busy doing his actual mayor duties because for some godforsaken reason, the man got re-elected.

No, it wasn’t Vlad. And it wasn’t Fright Knight, either. Nor the Observants. Who opened the Sarcophagus, then? Danny didn’t have time to find out as Pariah Dark promptly tore open a hole in reality and started hunting Danny down.

The battle was longer this time. He didn’t have the Ecto-Skeleton, as that was the first thing Pariah had destroyed. The halfa had grown a lot over the past few years, and learned some new tricks, but apparently sleeping in a magic ghost box meant that Pariah had absorbed a lot of power. The bigger ghost acted like a one-man army!

Amity Park was caught in the middle of the battle, but the residents made sure it went no further than that. Vlad and the Fentons made a barrier around the town to keep the destruction from leaking. Sam, Tucker, and Dani did crowd control while Danny faced the king head-on.

Their battle shook the Zone and pulled them wildly between the mortal plane and the afterlife. Sometimes, residents noticed a blow from Pariah transported them to the age of the dinosaurs, and Phantom’s Wail brought them to an unknown future. Then they were in a desert. Then a blazing forest. Then underwater. It went on like that, but no one dared step foot outside of Amity. They couldn’t risk being left behind.

It took ages to beat him, but eventually, Danny stood above the old ghost king, encasing his symbols of power in ice so they couldn’t be used again. He refused to claim the title for himself. Tired as he was, Danny handed the objects off to Clockwork for safe keeping and started repairing the damage Pariah had done to the town. The tear he’d made was too big to fix, for now, so no one bothered. They just welcomed their new ghostly neighbors with open arms and worked together to restore Amity Park.

Finally, the day came to bring down the barrier. People were gathered around the giant device the Fentons had built to sustain it. Danny had brought Clockwork to Amity, to double check that they had returned to the right time and dimension.

Clockwork assured everyone that they were in the right spot, and only a small amount of time had passed, so the Fentons gave the signal to drop the shield.

Very quickly did they discover that something was wrong. The air smelled different. The noise of the nearby city, Elmerton, was louder and more chaotic. Something was there that wasn’t before, and it put everyone on edge.

Clockwork smiled, made a remark about the town fitting in better than before, and disappearing before Danny could catch him.

Frantic, Danny had a few of his ghost buds stay behind to protect the town while he investigated.

He flew far and wide, steadily growing horrified at the changes the world had undergone. Heroes, villains, rampant crime and alien invasions. The Earth was unrecognizable. There were people moving around the stars like it was second nature and others raising dead gods like the apocalypse was coming. Magic and ectoplasm was everywhere, rather than following the ley lines like they were supposed to.

Danny returned to Amity.

The fight with Pariah had taken them through space and time. Somewhere along the way, they had changed the course of history so badly that this now felt like an alien world.

How was he supposed to fix this?

-

In the Watchtower, The Flash was wrapping up monitor duty while Impulse buzzed around him, a little more jittery than usual. The boy was talking a mile a minute, when alarms started blaring an alarming green. Flash had never seen this alarm before, and its crackling whine was grating on his ears.

Flash returned to the monitor, frantically clicking around to find the issue, but nothing was popping up. No major disasters, no invasions, no declarations of war. Nothing! What was causing the alarm?

Impulse swore and zipped to a window, pressing his face against it and staring down at Earth. “Fuck! It’s today isn’t it? I forgot!”

“What’s today?” Flash asked. He shot off a text to Batman, asking if it was an error. The big Bat said it wasn’t, and that he would be there soon.

“The arrival of Amity Park. I learned about this in school; the alarm always gives me headaches.”

Flash turned to his grandson, getting his attention. “Bart,” he stressed. “What are you talking about?”

Impulse barely glanced over his shoulder. Now that Flash was facing him, he could see a strong glow coming from Earth. “The first villain, first anti-villain, and the first hero,” he said anxiously. “They all protect the town of the original metas. They’re all here.”

“Here? Now??”

“Yeah? They weren’t before, but they are now. The first hero said there was time stuff involved, which was what inspired me to start practicing time travel in the first place.”

“I’m not following.”

“It’s okay. We should probably go welcome them before they tear apart Illinois, though. The history I remember says that some of them freaked and destroyed a chunk of the Midwest during a fight with each other.”

“WHAT?”

[theraprism]

An aspect of the Theraprism plot element that I think is really important is that, as readers, I fully believe that we are meant to be uncomfortable with it.

It's fitting for Bill to end up in an environment where he is trapped and unable to exert power over others, and the fact that he describes the Theraprism specifically as "overmedicated" is a full-circle moment IMO. As a child, his bodily autonomy was disrespected through the medical abuse he was subject to, and when he became an adult, he abused others through violation of their own bodily autonomy (see: the entire section of the lost Journal 3 pages concerning the possession battle). Bill isn't unpersoned by the narrative -- the book makes clear that he has feelings, no matter how much he denies them -- but the Theraprism unpersons him. In a literal sense, it *will* unperson him by transforming him into a being that lacks higher consciousness. The Theraprism brands itself as an institution that operates on the principle of restorative justice but is in fact fundamentally punitive.

From the angle that Bill needs to face the consequences of his actions, it's perfect. He might not recognize the suffering of others -- he might not even acknowledge his own suffering -- but he will be forced to feel his own suffering either way.

But from the angle that Gravity Falls is a show about healing from the past and moving toward a future with those who love you, Bill's situation is an utter nightmare for someone like him. You can't argue that he isn't a tragic villain at this point because it is so clear by now that he is trapped by the past, both in terms of the flashbacks he is stated to experience and in the way that the Theraprism is a punishment for his past actions. And the Theraprism, when it comes down to it, is not meant to accomodate someone like Bill.

The Theraprism's goal is not to rehabilitate Bill, but to keep him there alone forever. His recommended treatment is "infinite karmic rehabilitation". That's not atonement, it's a plain and simple sentence to life in prison.

I think that tension is very intentional.

[specialagentartemis]

Something always fascinating to me is the "character who thinks they're in a different genre" phenomenon. The theme of the story you are telling determines what the right and wrong actions to take are; but the characters, reacting in-universe to the situation, don't know what story they're in, and the exact same responses can be what saves you or damns you depending on what kind of story the author is telling and what the story's message is about what life is like.

In Wolf 359, Warren Kepler approaches the mysterious and powerful aliens with threats; he kills their liaison and tries to position himself as a powerful opponent. However, he's shown to be wrong and making things worse: his preemptive aggression is unwarranted and unhelpful and bites him in the ass. The aliens want to communicate and understand humanity and share our music. It's Doug Eiffel, the pacifistic (and kind of scaredy-cat) communications officer who loves to talk and share pop culture, who talks to them and understands that the aliens are scary not because they want to kill us but because they don't understand the concepts of individuals and death. Talking to them, communicating with them, understanding where they're coming from and and bringing them to understand a human point of view, is what succeeds. Openness rather than suspicion, trust rather than aggression. Kepler thinks he's a dramatic space marine protecting the Earth from the alien threat by showing them humans are tough and can take them, but that's not the kind of story this is.

Conversely, in Janus Descending, Chel is in awe of the strange and beautiful alien world around her. She wants to touch it, understand it, get up close to it. When she sees a crystal alien dog, she wants to befriend it, despite Peter's warning. But when she gets close to it, extending her arm in greeting, it attacks her and drags her down into the cave to try to eat her. This sets the inevitable tragedy in motion. Suspicion is warranted; trust will get you killed. Because this is a sci-fi horror, with a major running thematic reading about how racism and sexism will destroy your brain and your society, and how the people who think they're too smart to be prejudiced don't see their own prejudice and will end up ruining the lives of the people they still don't fully see as equals, this kind of trust that Chel shows this strange alien is tragic. However it is also a horror story where there are very real hibernating space snakes ready to wake up and eat the fresh meat that has landed on their planet, and by being too trusting Chel has accidentally introduced herself to one.

Kepler, suspicious and ready to shoot any alien he doesn't understand, would likely have survived Janus Descending; Chel, with her enthusiasm for learning about and meeting aliens, would have been a wonderful and helpful member of the Wolf 359 crew.

In a similar manner, in Alien, Ellen Ripley yells to the rest of her crew not to bring the attacked crewmember with the alien on his face back on the ship and into the medical bay, you don't know what contamination that thing might have; she's ignored. She tells them not to let the crewmember out of quarantine even though he seems fine; she's ignored again. Ripley is the one person protesting this isn't safe, we don't know what's going on, and she is consistently ignored, until an alien bursts out of her crewmate's chest and then eats everyone and Ripley is proven to be right and also the only survivor. (And it turns out that the science officer consistently overriding her protests was an android sent by the company that contracted them, and said android was given orders to bring the alien back so the company could study it and do weapons development with it, try not to let the crew find out about it, and kill them if he had to in order to do so!)

Ripley's paranoia and mistrust of the situation was correct, because Alien is a space horror and the theme is in space no one can hear you scream (also corporations consider you expendable).

Conversely, in All Systems Red, we have a damaged and almost-combat-overridden Murderbot being brought back into the PreservationAux hab medical bay after being attacked by other SecUnits. Gurathin becomes the one person protesting this isn't safe, we don't know what's going on, he doesn't want to let Murderbot out because it's hacked and probably sabotaging them for the company contracted their security and sent it with them. Gurathin thinks he is the Ellen Ripley here! He is trying to warn his teammates not to make a dangerous mistake that will get everyone killed!

However, All Systems Red is a very different story than Alien, and Murderbot is neither a traitor on behalf of the company to sabotage them and steal alien remnants for weapons development, nor a threat to the humans - it's a friend, it's a good person, and it wants to help them against both companies willing to screw them over. Trusting it and helping it is the right thing to do and is what saves their lives. Gurathin is proven to be wrong.

If everyone on the Nostromo crew had listened to Ellen Ripley, they would still be alive (except Kane. RIP Kane), because this is a horror story about being isolated and hunted and going up against this horrifying thing that wants to kill and eat you and just keeps getting stronger. If everyone on the PreservationAux team listened to Gurathin, they would all be dead, because this is a story about friendship and teamwork and trust and overcoming trauma and accepting the personhood of someone very different from you.

Same responses. Different context. And so very different moral conclusions.

Warren Kepler was about how the brash violent over-confident approach to things you don't understand is wrong, and that openness and developing that understanding between people is what's important; Chel was about the tragedy of trust destroying a Black woman who wanted so much to believe in a world that could be kind and beautiful. Ripley was about a woman whose expertise and safety warnings were ignored and brushed aside and everyone who did so died because of it; Gurathin was about how even justified fear shouldn't mean you make someone else a scapegoat and mistrust them because they seem scary.

Sometimes you're in the wrong genre because you need to be, because the author is trying to show how not to react to the situation they set up in order to build the mood and the theme they're trying to convey.

[unluckycryptid]

An Unnecessary In-depth Analysis on the Movie and Soundtrack versions of "The Fight of Our Lives" from Descendants 4: The Rise of Red

Hi all, before I get started, I just wanted to say that I enjoyed watching The Rise of Red after being constantly bombarded about it on Tiktok, so now I've been listening to the soundtrack nonstop. I know "Fight of Our Lives" is one of those songs that are either on the top or the bottom of someone's favs list, and for me, it's at the top. I've been listening to this one song on repeat--moreso than any of the other songs.

Now, let's get into it.

There are 3 different versions of the song I'm going to try to analyze side-by-side: 1) the extended version on the official soundtrack 2) the movie version and 3) the visuals of the movie version.

So as some of us know,

The extended version features a conversation between Red and Chloe:

[Extended Version] How naive to still believe you'll get a happy ever after A privileged little princess, a fairy-fail disaster Spoken like a slacker, Red, you're seeing someone else I've worked hard for every single trophy sitting on my shelf You need helpYou're a poser with a bad attitudeThat's not true, you don't know the things that I've been throughNeither do youWell, then tell me, little goody two-shoes What do you think we should do?

Whereas the movie version, the conversation is cut down to Red's lines on the matter

[Movie version] Give me that! *Makes a grab for the watch* I don't need the help of some princess goody-two-shoes. I'll handle this myself

Already we're starting out with a difference in subtle characterization between Chloe and Red. The extended version gives it to us explicitly how they see each other upon their initial interaction, one that the audience may also have initially assumed. Red calls Chloe "naive", "privileged" and a "fairy-fail disaster" whereas Chloe calls Red a "slacker" and a "poser". Their shared defensiveness in the line "you need help" is hilarious, but also keep in mind it is also their first shared line in the song. Taken out of context within their conversation, but held up to the rest of the song, it all comes back to the purpose of the song and the whole movie in general where the two need the help of each other to complete their mission.

Individual characterizations can also be found here. With Chloe, of the three insults that Red throws at her in the extended version, she chooses to respond to being called "privileged" by talking about how hard she's worked for her trophies and whatnot. We see this later come back in the movie in her interactions with Ella and Ella's own views on privilege, but it is nice to see how it is first brought up here.

As for Red, her response after being called a "poser" gets her a little more defensive. She's already been called a "slacker" by Chloe, but "poser" means she's pretending to be something. Is this because of how she sentenced Ella to treason in an attempt to please her mom? Is Chloe referring to their first interaction, where Red immediately tries to threaten her? Or does it touch a nerve due to the fact that she genuinely tries to express herself (aka her clothing) but is always shut down by her mother? Either way, Red's shown to be misunderstood and most likely a loner with the exception of Maddox. Getting called a poser probably cut a little more for Red who is still trying to figure out how she wants to be seen (it doesn't help that she already threatened to feed Chloe to the jabberwocky).

Additionally, the next verse is prompted differently by Red. As opposed to the movie version, the extended/studio version has her prompt and ask Chloe what Chloe thinks they should do. I'll keep touching on this a little more, but this shines a light on the difference between the two versions. In the extended version, you'll see that it is formatted as a conversation between the two characters, which I absolutely love.

Alright let's move on to the actual song now.

Chloe's Verse [Movie/Extended] I'll tell it to you straight to your face There isn't any time left to waste My kingdom back home needs to be saved Give me the pocket watch or you're getting slayed You best behave [Extended only] Tell your pack of cards I'm coming back to cut their deck I could beat your evil army in a millisec I'll slice them up like cheddar My mom won't have forever The clock is ticking and it's time That's why it's now or never

So the movie cuts out a good portion of Chloe's verse which I understand since they need to save time and the second portion of her verse isn't too important in terms of the story since we already know this part. However, I will say that I still think they should have kept it in since: this is the first time Chloe sings. She doesn't have any songs sang by herself and the two songs she is most prominently featured in are duets. In "Get You Hands Dirty", Ella starts the song and leads it for the most part, and Red has her own intro song. Again, while I understand why they cut it out of the movie, the second part of Chloe's verse serves to add more to what we may have picked up about her. The first three lines of that second verse lets us know that Chloe is confident in her skills as a sword fighter and that she's willing to fight. The last three lines add to her desperation to go back to the past to help her mom.

Chloe's chorus [Movie/Extended] I'm running out of hope, running out of time I'll do what it takes just to change your mind Or we'll cross swords, hope not to die We're on opposite sides in the fight of our lives [Extended] There is no future in the past We gotta move forward, not stay back The moment is now, but it won't last We're on opposite sides in the fight of our lives

I think this is where the major difference between the extended and movie version come into play. If you've only listened to the movie version, an additional voice is added in the 2nd and 4th lines as a short bit of harmony and it sounds as though Red is singing it. However, the extended version doesn't emphasize that second voice, keeping it focused only on Chloe's voice making it Chloe's chorus. Again, like I said, the extended version emphasizes the conversation between the two characters and Chloe's the first one up to share her thoughts on the matter. Going back to the point that this is the first time that Chloe sings in the movie, this is the only time she gets a chorus to herself--and like her verse, it's cut short. :/

Now onto Red:

Red's verse Use your brains Going back will just cause more pain We agreed we gotta make a change To beat the queen above everything You're on my side or you're in my way You wanna leave but I got to stay There's a reason we're here today For past, present and future's sake, wait Pre-chorus Got too much at stake to go home (That's not true) Guess I'm gonna do it on my own (I'm here too) You're not gonna catch me if I fall (Maybe) Got me runnin' on these walls Dippin', flippin' somersaults (Stop) 'Bout to risk it all

So unlike Chloe, we do end up getting to see the full version of Red's verse. I'm not going to touch too much into it since its fairly straightforward but I did want to focus during the pre-chorus. I want to touch on little bits that Chloe cuts in because, in a way, it reflects and foreshadows their relationship.

When Red goes "Got too much at stake to go home" and Chloe responds with "That's not true" this is currently where their relationship is at. Chloe doesn't know what stakes are on the table for Red, while alternatively, Chloe's sang about what stakes are in it for her in her verse.

Now when Red goes "Guess I'm gonna do it on my own" and Chloe says "I'm here too" I find this interesting because up until this point, we're lead to believe that if Chloe gets hold of the pocketwatch and is able to leave without any interference, she would have done so already.

I want to bring in a bit about what what visuals we see in the movie right now, but I have more to say about other parts of the visuals separately at the end. Anyway, we see that, yes, Chloe has the watch and she stops to listen during Red's verse and turns around to leave once Red gets to the pre-chorus.

She could keep walking away, hell she could run off and use the pocket watch on her own. What incentive does she have to take Red back to the future with her? At this point, Chloe hasn't decided to trust Red. But Red runs up to her, unarmed mind you, and the two end up circling each other--almost as though Chloe's decided to listen to her.

So now, Red says "you're not gonna catch me if I fall" and its kind of hard to hear and some lyric websites don't show it, but Chloe says "Maybe" in response to the line (it's clearer in the live/studio version). It's small but its the first time Chloe verbally shows that she might be willing to trust Red and not just cooperate with her. But it could go the other way: maybe she won't catch Red, maybe she will, but what's important here is that she's not outright denying that she won't work with Red.

They're still circling each other during this point, and again Chloe didn't need to fall into circle with Red, she could have just left. But it also shows that Chloe doesn't want to want to just abandon Red in the past. At this point, she still wants to go back to the future, but she's just hoping to get Red to agree to return with her which could be a reason she says "stop" in a hilariously exasperated tone in response to Red talking about "running up on these walls" and "dippin, flippin somersaults".

Before we get into Red's chorus, we should note that in the visuals, it's at the last lines of the pre-chorus that we see Red decide to get a weapon to fight for the pocket watch. I've talked about how Chloe could have just kept walking, but alternatively, why didn't Red make a grab for the weapon/flag earlier? She could have done so just as Chloe turned her back with the pocket-watch. She spent the entirety of her verse and pre-chorus trying to convince Chloe, but only now does she decide to even the match between her and Chloe.

I know it sounds like I'm reaching here but it could have something to do with Chloe's first insult at Red in calling her a "slacker". The main weapon we've seen Red use so far are her words (both in the song and in the act of accusing Cinderella of treason). Yes, she's been trying to convince Chloe to stay in the past to fix things, but it's starting to get too long. She's just going to have to speak another language to fully convince Chloe--and what's a better language to convince a girl with a sword than the language of fighting?

Red's Chorus I don't need your help 'cause the watch is mine If you hear me out, then you'll change your mind Let's not cross swords, hope not to die 'Cause we're on opposite sides in the fight of our lives Change the future in the past We gotta move forward where we're at The moment is now, but it won't last We're on opposite sides in the fight of our lives

Even though Red contradicts my earlier point about trying to convince Chloe with the line "I don't need your help 'cause the watch is mine", she immediately contradicts herself with her next line "If you hear me out, then you'll change your mind." I'll analyze the line "Let's not cross swords" later when we go over the shared chorus.

In terms of visuals, Red is definitely giving Chloe a fight. She's attacking while Chloe is defending and it all comes to a culmination at the end of the chorus when Red manages to knock the watch out of Chloe's possession.

At this point she can keep fighting Chloe and go for the watch herself. It's the same as 'why didn't Chloe just walk away with the watch' and 'why didn't Red grab the flagpole sooner?'.

Alright this takes us to the bridge/breakdown:

Bridge Let me ask you something Why should I trust you? Your mom just staged a violent coup For all I know, you're gonna stab me in the back too Think what you want to, boo I'm nothing like my mom Her power trip was way too strong, I knew that she was wrong Well, maybe we'll get along, maybe we're not that different Maybe we need each other to complete the same mission I'm glad you put your pride aside to make the right decisionWe'll work together until history is rewritten

You'll notice that Chloe actually backs up from Red's attack with the pocket watch as she starts her portion of the bridge.

She's waiting for Red to attack her, hence why she hasn't sheathed her sword yet. But you'll also notice that Red isn't poised to attack. The staff is under her arm, not in front of her. I think, at this point, Red's goal in attacking Chloe with a weapon is actually achieved. The goal being: separating the watch from Chloe before she could return them to the future. Also, you'll notice that they're finally on even ground-literally in that they're both standing on the same level on the balcony, and that they both have weapons they can use to attack each other. Neither of them have the advantage here. So when Red starts her next line "think what you want to boo, I'm nothing like my mom" and throws the staff down, it really brings home the point that she's being sincere in trying to convince Chloe to work with her.

And Chloe is convinced as she sheaths her sword once Red drops her weapon. I skipped this part earlier but the dialogue where the second part of Chloe's verse is cut is where Chloe has the sword on Red while Red says "What are you going to do? Run me through and steal my watch? I think there's a word for that actually...it starts with a V... oh right: Villain." Here, with Red throwing down her weapon, she trusts that Chloe wouldn't do that to her.

Back to the bridge, Chloe's next line is full of the word "maybe" calling back to her first "maybe" during Red's pre-chorus. While that initial "maybe" in the pre-chorus can be thought of as how Red might be able to rely on Chloe if she falls, these "maybe"s reflect the same questions but from the opposite perspective. Can Chloe trust Red to have her back and complete their mission? The initial "maybe" calls into question if the two can rely on each other while these latter "maybe"s call into question how much can they rely on each other.

The bridge ends with their second shared line before going into their shared chorus. If we put the first shared line to this second shared line:

"You need help" -> "We'll work together until history is rewritten"

This almost sounds like it an problem and solution. Yes, the "you need help" line refers to their personalities clashing with one another, but the double meaning of "you need help, you can't complete this mission on your own" is solved by "working together until history is rewritten".

Final Chorus We might not be a team, but we gotta try Did you change your heart, or just change your mind? So cross our swords, hope not to die I'm kinda surprised, are we on the same side? Change the future in the past We gotta move forward where we're at The moment is now, but it won't last So we're on the same side in the fight of our lives Fight of our lives The fight of our lives We're on the same side

So going into this final chorus that they both share, I want to look into the music a bit. Both in the movie and the extended soundtrack version, you'll notice, neither of them take the harmony. They're both singing the melody signifying their equality in this team/relationship. With how the movie is named after Red, you'd think that it would be a main character-sidekick kind of relationship, but the overall movie really makes sure to emphasize that-no, Chloe is needed and she's just as important as Red to make this story work. (So I guess one could come up with an AU where Red makes it into the past but without Chloe. How would things have turned out?)

Now I want to analyze the three chorus's side by side and I want to look in particular at the first three lines.

I'm running out of hope, running out of time I'll do what it takes just to change your mind Or we'll cross swords, hope not to die I don't need your help 'cause the watch is mine If you hear me out, then you'll change your mind Let's not cross swords, hope not to die We might not be a team, but we gotta try Did you change your heart, or just change your mind? So cross our swords, hope not to die

The first two lines of both Chloe and Red's chorus reflects the conversation between the two. Both of them making "I" statements and how each one is trying to change each other's mind about what they should do next. What gets me with the second line of both of their choruses is that Chloe's "I'll do what it takes to change your mind" leaves no room for compromise or work with Red, while Red's "If you hear me out, then you'll change your mind" shows Red wants Chloe to hear her out and that Red is the one extending the possibility of the two working together.

This point is further hammered home by each of their third lines. Chloe's third line reads a bit like an "or else" threat. 'Give me the watch "or [else] we'll cross swords".' Red's reads as 'I don't want to have to fight you' so "Let's not cross swords".

For someone who is a VK, you'd expect them to want take the lone road in getting what they want--that they'd be jumping at the opportunity to fight someone for what they want. But not Red, no this shows that Red really isn't like her mom and that while she may have some bad attitude, she doesn't want to be selfish, she's not doing this for personal glory, and she is even willing to work with others to defeat her mom.

The third line of the shared chorus "so cross our swords" now ends up reading like a handshake, maybe even a pinky promise to get through with their mission without dying because now they're on the same side in the fight of their lives.

-

Before I end this analysis, I did want to bring up a couple more stuff about the visuals that I couldn't find a place to talk about.

Mainly I wanted talk about Chloe as a swordsman and Red's initial perceptions on that.

First, I wanted to talk about Chloe's physicality on the field. We've already seen her fight her dad (and she's pretty impressive given that she was able to disarm him using her non-sword arm) so we know she's a great swordsman, but I will say this about her: she's not exactly the most graceful one out there.

Case 1:

Girl throws herself a the wall with her sword just to get in front of Red. You can see that Red absolutely does NOT expect that she'd jump in front of her like that. It's unconventional but effective.

Case 2:

Her little shuffle to dodge Red's staff always cracks me up cause you'd think there would be more finesse in her dodging ability. But again, its effective-she was able to dodge Red's attacks.

Case 3:

Miss ma'am chooses to full send off a balcony that had stairs (which Red takes).

Case 4:

Jumping for the pocket watch hoping to catch it with her sword, and not getting any on-screen assistance from Red at all. (Although I do wish that we saw Red help her in some way by either giving her a boost or using per parkour skills so that they could work together to grab it and hammer in the point that they're working together now.) She does eventually get it down though.

So while yes, Chloe isn't necessarily the most graceful swordsman, her moves are-for the most part-effective.

But now I also want to talk about Red's perceptions of Chloe as a swordsman.

When Red initially has the watch and Chloe makes a grab for it, they're running around and Red turns around to basically taunt Chloe. From Red's perspective, the only other swordsman that she's encountered are her card soldiers (that we know of) and she easily runs laps around the handfuls of guards in her opening scene. She's not initially intimidated by Chloe and her sword because she's confident that she can outrun her. So when Chloe pulls the unconventional move of (again) running full speed at a wall in front of Red with her sword drawn, the surprised face Red makes probably comes from "oh sh*t, I may have underestimated his girl".

Remember, at this point Red's called Chloe "naive" and in the scene prior, she's says to Chloe "I thought you were supposed to be the smart one" so with Chloe being a swordsman, she may have extended the same thought process in the other girl's skills on the battlefield. But I think that Chloe pulling that move just to catch Red and then Chloe's subsequent move in using her sword to catch the watch's chain to pull it out of Red's possession, it shows Red that this girl can hold her own in a fight.

Once Chloe takes possession of the watch, we see Red considering something before she starts her own verse. I think it's at this point where she's fully considering trying to convince Chloe to work together or at least see her point of view instead of just doing it on her own, and she ends up doing so as her verse starts.

So yeah, this kind of brings it all full circle. We watch Red and Chloe going at it, Chloe's swordsmanship skills impacts Red's perception of Chloe, going against Red's initial impression of Chloe's naivety and privilege, which leads Red to decide to convince Chloe to work alongside her. On the opposite end, Chloe's initial impressions of Red being a slacker and being a poser are challenged once Red matches her skills in physicality and weaponry as well as finally seeing Red's genuine intentions in convincing Chloe to help her. When the two finally are on the same side, its reflected in the music in which both sing the melody, and in the subtle lyric changes that show the initial formations of their team/duo relationship.

--

If you made it this far, thanks for reading. I was hoping to get this out in one afternoon but this actually took a couple sessions to fully lay out everything I've noticed and wanted to talk about this song. Again, its my favorite song in the movie, so hopefully I've convinced some more people about how awesome this song actually is.

[thresholdbb]

Janeway is already struggling with her mental state in Concerning Flight –

JANEWAY: You're giving up. Again. Your beautiful painting of the Adoration, the great bronze horse in Milan, the Battle of Anghiari. Unfinished, all of them. You were going to publish your notebooks. You never did. You have given up, abandoned your most important works. Why?

She probes Da Vinci intently, trying to figure out why he would abandon all that's important to him and the things he's tried to achieve. Why throw away everything that's gotten him up to this point?

The real question is why would she care so much? She is too invested in his answer, and she's really accusing him of the things she fears she'll do. She fears she'll give up because she's already descending into the depressive episode we see culminate in Night. "You've given up. Abandoned your most important works. Why?" She's not asking him that question; she's asking for herself.

Janeway is struggling to hold on and she's looking for strength anywhere she can find it, even if it is in the comfort of a Renaissance holodeck program. What's especially telling is she only does this when she's alone with Da Vinci because the second Voyager needs attention, she's back to being captain. Given some space, though, she's ruminating in isolation and blame

[withthewindinherfootsteps]

Parallels in the Yi City arc: Yi City Quartet & 3Zun

(Long post ahead!)

I think one overlooked detail about the Yi City arc is how closely its characters parallel the story of 3Zun – with Xiao Xingchen as Lan Xichen, Xue Yang as Jin Guangyao, and Song Lan and A-Qing as aspects of Nie Mingjue! Though we can't know if its intentional, the sheer number of similarities does suggest to me that it shouldn't be overlooked – so, let's investigate.

Both Xiao Xingchen and Lan Xichen play the role of the 'betrayed' — significantly, because of some sort of blindness.

While for Xiao Xingchen this is physical, Lan Xichen is also blind to Jin Guangyao's true nature. This blindness has been shaped by their betrayer: Xue Yan blinded Song Lan, leading to Xiao Xingchen sacrificing his own eyes for him, while Jin Guangyao deliberately acts to make himself appear honourable and innocent to the people he encounters. This means Lan Xichen cannot 'see' anything contradictory to this about him. This theme of blindness becomes important to the thematic implications of this arc, which we'll talk about later.

In both cases, the 'betrayer' has some role in shaping this blindness, and uses it to their advantage.

Xue Yang blinded Song Lan, causing Xiao Xingchen to give up his eyes for him. Jin Guangyao's crafted persona is the reason Lan Xichen doesn't suspect anything about him. Xue Yang uses Xiao Xingchen's blindness to conceal his identity/nature and thus get close to an unsuspecting him; Jin Guangyao is likewise able to be unsuspected, while using Lan Xichen's generosity to murder Nie Mingjue and gaining a strong ally/defender. Regardless of intent towards Lan Xichen himself, this is still true.

This leads to an identity reveal and betrayal, in which the former party is blindsided (...pun not intended, I couldn't find a better word).

Xiao Xingchen is shocked that Xue Yang is Xue Yang when A-Qing tells him; Lan Xichen likewise does not want to believe Jin Guangyao isn't the person he thought he knew (though, he does promise to evaluate his beliefs!), and when Jin Guangyao ends up sealing his spiritual powers and betraying him, he doesn't see it coming.

Additionally, Lan Xichen and Xiao Xingchen are both tricked into stabbing a member of their group, as a part of someone else's revenge.

For Lan Xichen, it's an outside party (Nie Huaisang); for Xiao Xingchen, it's another member of this group (Xue Yang). Nie Huaisang wanted to take revenge on Jin Guangyao, and Xue Yang wanted to take revenge on Xiao Xingchen himself.

Also, Lan Xichen was tricked by his Xue Yang counterpart into being an instrument for a group member's murder, which could also parallel these events on Xiao Xingchen's side!

So, why is this important?

A common theme in MDZS is being critical of information/rumours. Don't accept something at first glance – question the validity, the evidence, the reason it's being brought up. We see this in the way Lan Wangji acts (eg when discussingg the case of the Chang clan) and in how he teaches the Juniors; we see this in how Wei Wuxian questions the words and intentions of Sisi and Bicao, even when having people suspect Jin Guangyao would be beneficial to him; we see this in the very premise of the novel, as something we were led to believe was true at first glance (by the title and prologue) is proven to be entirely false.

And, in Lan Xichen and Xiao Xingchen's case, we see the dangers of the opposite. That's not blaming them – Jin Guangyao is a very good manipulator and I’d argue Lan Xichen handled the situation very well when it was raised, and Xiao Xingchen was physically blind and couldn’t have guessed the body on the roadside would be Xue Yang of all people – but factually, both characters believed something without having seen the full picture, and were stabbed in the back for it. Lan Xichen could have considered Nie Minjue's words to provide another perspective, and Xiao Xingchen could have inquired into this mysterious person's background and questioned whether they were exploitative (even if it may have been unreasonable, and wouldn't have changed much since Xue Yang is a very good liar), yet both didn't. They both do accept or try to accept what we know is the truth when it's raised to them, but unfortunately it's too late and both pay a steep price. It's also worth noting that both are considered righteous figures (you can debate about Lan Xichen, but that's his in-universe perception), and neither had malicious intent towards any group member. But it doesn't matter how good your intentions are, or how good of a person you are – if you believe things unquestioningly, it'll still lead to harm. Both to you, and unintentionally by you, too. After all, this unquestioning acceptance of one-sided hearsay is a major driver of the mob mentality so heavily critiqued in the book.

And yes, this could've worked had their stories not so closely paralleled each others' – but I'd argue Xiao Xingchen's physical blindness serves to lampshade the metaphorical blindness of Lan Xichen, accentuating this theme. And also having two similar stories helps draw attention to what both of them are saying much more easily than if the stories had been very different.

At the end, however, Lan Xichen is left alive and able to reflect on what led him to this scenario – unlike his spiritual predecessor. Perhaps this is a glimmer of hope, a sign that there is more room for the questioning of rumours and for critical thinking skills in the world now, especially as the younger generation who embodies this begins to grow up; or perhaps it's just another detail of just how doomed Xiao Xingchen was, because despite embodying this theme, was there anything to reflect on and do differently, that would've changed the outcome of his story? As we said before, Xue Yang is a very good liar, and there really wasn't a reason to constantly suspect him from the information Xiao Xingchen had and (more importantly) could feasibly gather. Regardless, the difference in where they end up is important when analysing similarities, and I'm inclined to believe it is a small sign the world can change for the better.

(Similarities on other members under the cut – because there are a lot for everyone else, too, and this post isn't just about the two mentioned above. Once more, we'll be analysing both the 'what' and the 'why'.)

Xue Yang and Jin Guangyao play the role of the 'betrayer' or 'villain', hiding the fact that they're causing and wanting to cause harm – successfully from one member, unsuccessfully from the other(s).

The 'What'

Both kill the suspecting, the main difference being who they're targeting with this action (for Xue Yang, this taints Xiao Xingchen further, whereas Jin Guangyao was simply targeting Nie Mingjue and not Lan Xichen at all). Additionally, both are from a lower-class*, non-cultivator background, who were taken in by the Jin sect and rose to power through this and through doing… morally dubious things. Both share revenge as a motivator – specifically, revenge against an older, male Sect Leader who used them, rejected them and physically harmed them in some way too (Chang Ci'An due to Xue Yang being a street child; Jin Guangshan due to Jin Guangyao being the ‘son of a prostitute’). However, they have both accomplished this revenge goal at the time of their main story. They also have worked together and helped each other in their actions in the past (Villainous Friends extra). Also, both end up losing a hand to Lan Wangji, coincidentally enough.

The 'Why'

Though classism is a present theme in both their stories, I wouldn’t say this is what the parallels are drawing attention to — it’s drawn attention to much more when dealing with Jin Guangyao, and the idea that being treated badly isn’t an excuse for your actions is more prevalent in contrast (with characters like WWX and A-Qing) than similarities. Thematically, they instead serve to show just how easily information can be twisted and distributed – and again, why it's so important we don't accept everything at first glance. Outside of themes, their parallels do contrast them slightly, too — after all, Jin Guangyao’s treatment of Lan Xichen** is much more positive than Xue Xang’s of Xiao Xingchen, despite the ‘betrayed’ treating both of the similarly. But, one could argue, how much does this actually matter? Considering the eventual harm brought to this figure by them regardless, and everything else each of them did? Whatever the answer, the questions are raised by these similarities between them.

Finally, Nie Mingjue is paralleled by both Song Lan and A-Qing in different ways, though the Song Lan parallels are more prominent.

The 'What': Song Lan

All three were killed by the ‘betrayer’ — however, both Nie Mingjue’s and Song Lan’s murders occured before the betrayal, and their deaths and post-mortem identity reveals play an important role in it. A-Qing witnessing Song Lan’s death (as well as just discovering Xue Yang’s identity from Song Lan) is what makes her tell Xiao Xingchen who Xue Yang is, catalysing that betrayal, and Xiao Xingchen discovering Song Lan’s identity makes the betrayal have… let’s say even more of an impact :’). Meanwhile, the identity reveal of the mysterious corpse triggers the investigation of Jin Guangyao, and also starts to catalyse his downfall, leading to the events of the Guanyin temple. Additionally, both turn into fierce corpses encountered by the cast of the main story (both fighting Wen Ning and starting more antagonistic than they end up), with these corpses having been modified in some way by the ‘betrayer’: Nie Mingjue’s corpse is cut up, and Song Lan’s has the needles inserted and is under Xue Yang’s control. I wouldn’t especially say there are themes or questions raised here, it’s more similarities in the group dynamic, but it’s still very interesting to see.

There isn't as much to say here on the 'why' side of things, though there may be something I'm missing. The role of these characters here is mainly in service of the themes in the other characters' arcs – but it's still useful to analyse just how many factual similarities there are, again to give us hints as to whether these parallels between the groups were intentional or not.

The 'What': A-Qing

A-Qing and Nie Mingjue have less parallels, but they definitely exist. Their role here is their constant suspicion — they both suspect and keep suspecting the ‘betrayer’’s actions, despite the trust of the ‘betrayed’ in them (though Nie Mingjue is certainly more violent in this regard). Additionally, both play an important role in the death of the ‘betrayer’ as undead beings: the ghost of A-Qing by constantly tapping her bamboo pole to reveal Xue Yang’s position, and Nie Mingjue’s fierce corpse by directly killing Jin Guangyao. Both are souls through which Wei Wuxian experiences the events of their stories, and both also end the story in some sort of container — Nie Mingjue in the coffin and A-Qing’s broken soul in a spirit-trapping pouch — but admittedly that’s much more flimsy than the rest of my points.

The 'Why': A-Qing

Though at first glance it seems like this suspicion didn't do anything positive for the characters – both ended up dead at the hands of the one spreading/taking advantage of misinformation – it's important to note that these characters are the characters the truth is revealed through. Though I'd argue Nie Mingjue was probably blinded by his own assumptions as much as Lan Xichen was blinded by his own, even if it did end up lining up more closely with the truth, he still plays the same role as A-Qing in questioning and suspecting somebody despite it appearing – on the surface – that there's nothing wrong. And I don't think it's coincidence that in both these cases, the truth is revealed through somebody who did play this role.

Final Thoughts

Though it is possible these parallels were still coincidences, there really are a lot of similarities between the groups' storylines – and they do serve the purpose of important themes within the book. Therefore, I don't think it's unreasonable to assume they were intentional on some level! And even if I'm reading too far into things and they weren't? It doesn't mean they hold no value.

Finally, these parallels are really interesting on their own, but it’s also really interesting to compare where each group ended up. Both groups ended up destroyed due to murder done by the ‘betrayer’, with only one person left standing. However, while Xue Yang was the survivor of the Yi city group (and was later killed by LWJ), the survivor of the Venerated Triad was Lan Xichen — someone who, as mentioned, though heavily affected, now has the chance to grow as a person and fully take things with all their context because of it. So despite the prevalence in the Jianghu of the attitude MXTX is critiquing, despite Wei Wuxian, Lan Wangji and Mianmian only really being able to find peace by stepping away rather than changing it, despite the tragedy of the stories of both the Yi City quartet and of 3zun... ultimately, these parallels could indicate hope.

—

*Although there is a big difference in how much lower this class is, of course.

**There is also the aspect of Xue Yang having a negative past with Xiao Xingchen before, with the opposite being true for Jin Guangyao and Lan Xichen. Jin Guangyao is known to have a good memory and hold grudges — so, if the pairs’ roles were reversed, would anything fundamentally change?

[auradons-trash-heap]

Do you think that Disney cared about Descendants? I barely see any fanart, merch etc and they don't acknowledge that the couple have kids..

I think on the whole “Disney movies” and “Disney Channel Original Movies” are kept pretty separate & Disney as a corporation only ‘cares’ about properties insofar as they can make them money. For successful DCOMs like High School Musical & Descendants selling cheaply produced merch like party decorations & Halloween costumes & the limited doll runs was enough to turn a profit, and the second the franchise’s popularity began to fade they stopped producing anything for it. Sure there are still fans, but it’s much less enduring than their classic properties like ‘The Little Mermaid’ or whatever that can consistently sell products & thus justify having them made. That’s why Descendants doesn’t get Official Art like the ‘Disney Princess lineup’ regularly does; it’s just not profitable.

I think the Descendants fandom is still doing pretty good in terms of producing fanart/fic content but I’m used to getting into super obscure stuff so even now Descendants is one of the larger fandoms that I’m in lol. There are so many contradictions in the massive Disney canon (the company’s been around since 1923, after all!) & personally I just take that as free license to pick & choose whatever I want for my fan content lol. Sleeping Beauty, Maleficent 1/2, & Descendants are all 3 completely different official canons for the characters they contain, but it’s hard to say any of them are “inaccurate.” They’re basically just officially licensed fanfiction or alternate universes. In the Descendants Universe the couples have these kids, but in the Animated Film Universe maybe they don’t. And when we’re making content ourselves, we can take inspiration from both, & I think that’s pretty cool anyway!

[abstract-moth]

just realized how much of a NIGHTMARE Ballister and Ambrosius’ class must have been

Todd is the obvious problem child. not only is he a bully, arrogant, and doesn’t think things through, but he is, unfortunately, charismatic enough to rally the entire class behind him. which means that if Todd is up to some nonsense, EVERYONE is up to the same nonsense

Ambrosius Goldenloin is, theoretically, the best behaved student. theoretically. oh yes catch him in the presence of his parents or at a formal function and he is an absolute delight to be around. but in a classroom? away from his stifling home with it’s strict rules and expectations??? he quickly shifts into a goofball with a concerning amount of repressed frustrations. his trouble making lessens as he gets older (Gloreth bless). but unfortunately that barely helps at all bc he starts mastering the art of behaving in a technically correct manner that nonetheless absolutely drives everyone else up the wall.

Ballister is actually the best behaved student, although that’s not saying much. he’s shy and sticks to the background. but don’t forget that the only reason he’s here in the first place is because he outran several guards, jumped a fence, and crashed a training session

I would not want to be stuck in a classroom with them is all I’m saying

[kingsandbastardz]

Cheng Yi, Zeng Shunxi, and Xiao Shunyao 2023-24 New Year's Eve + New Years gala photos

[kingchad]

I havent kept up with the actors social media, I am curious - could you link to or explain how Jed Goodacre interprets Chad vs. how you interpret Chad?

oh, yes, gladly! There's an observable shift between D1 Chad and D2/3 Chad. D1 Chad is a lot more pointed and deliberately mean. D2/3 Chad is a comedy side character who is incidentally mean because he doesn't recognize when he's being insensitive.

my personal speculation is that when Sarah Jeffrey had scheduling conflicts and couldn't be on set for D2, the original intended plotline for Chad had to change, and leading to him becoming a harmless gag character for levity. It also doesn't hurt that Jedidiah Goodacre is a HUGE Jim Carrey fan and pretty clearly enjoys any opportunity to improv/be silly on set. (If you're familiar with Carrey's work at all, D2/3 Chad is definitely giving that.) I suspect that Jedidiah's affinity for comedy on set pushed the Chad character even MORE in the direction of harmless sidekick than maybe was originally intended. If Audrey had been in D2, Chad might have been more similar to his D1 self throughout the series.

Of Chad, Jedidiah gives a pretty consistent take whenever he does give one. The quotes I'll pull are "[Chad] always thinks that [he is] doing the right thing, when sometimes [he is] not smart enough to understand [he is] dead wrong"* and "I feel like the first movie, maybe Chad was a bit more standoffish and maybe came off as not such a nice guy....in the second film, you found that Chad was more of a loveable idiot. That's a very fun place to be when you're an actor because in any scene, your go-to move is to just not understand and sometimes it ends up being funny. In the third installment, you can expect much of the same." Pretty unambiguously can be interpreted that Chad is stupid and means no real harm, and Jedidiah has fun playing him that way.

PERSONALLY, I much much much prefer D1 Chad's personality, because I have historically been drawn to and have a real fondness for characters that are assholes. I do try and incorporate some of the stupidity and goofiness of D2/3 into my writing, because I recognize that's 2/3rds of the canon material we have and I don't want to be COMPLETELY making shit up, but y'know. In my view, Chad knows when he is being a dick but doesn't value the people he's treating poorly enough to care. He isn't book-smart but he is people smart, and can manipulate and exploit the people around him. He thinks he's better than other people and can use that to justify anything he does.

A really core part of this to me is that Chad has almost religiously bought into the societal rules of Auradon, namely that there are good and bad people, and fairytales go a certain way. This is part of why Chad is deeply closeted and feels like he can't come out. He feels pressured to "stick to the script", in a sense. Heteronormative fairytale society. Auradonian compulsory heterosexuality.

Adopted Chad is a new thing for me, but I think it adds another layer to the fairytale conformity thing. Like he feels an even greater pressure to do the nuclear family, white picket fence castle grounds, 2.5 kids thing because he worries he might be perceived as "not belonging" by others. He feels he needs to prove himself by throwing himself into the stereotypical prince thing as much as he can.

I personally think those traits are more interesting to write and read than D2/3 Chad's traits are. They provide a great starting point for character growth. It's way more engaging to watch someone change into a more empathetic person when they can understand that they were wrong. It's not as interesting to read about a stupid character bumbling through social interactions imo.

I don't think that I always successfully communicate those ideas in my fics because I was 15 when I started writing Descendants fic! It's been 7 years, I'm 22 now and hopefully a better and more thoughtful writer! Incorporating all of this is something I'm REALLY deliberate about in my WIPs now and I actually want to rework a lot of stuff I've already posted someday.

*this first quote is from 2014, pre-release press for Descendants 1, so honestly this kind of disproves my speculation since the whole statement seems very by-the-numbers "Disney gave me a list of character traits and it's these ones" to me. I guess Chad might have been stupid all along! but the vibe is definitely different between films so the understanding of the character definitely shifted between movies regardless.

[shadystranger]

the switch from worry for sam to appealing.. oh he knows how to fuck him up so perfectly tailored for him