#dean and sam were abused
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So, I realized the other day that there's some really good parallels between Dean's life and experiences growing up with John & his abuse, and the song that's my new obsession: Would've Could've Should've.
Let's look at some of this:
If I was some paint, did it splatter
On a promising grown man
And if I was a child, did it matter
If you got to wash your hands?
After Mary died, John had his sons relying on him, and all he wanted to do was go after what killed her. So he did anyway, with zero thought to how it would affect his sons. Particularly Dean, who was accustomed to a normal life. Was I a hindrance, an inconvenience to you? It didn't matter because I was a child, so no one cared if you just washed your hands of me and of the effect it would have on me.
I would've stayed on my knees
And I damn sure never would've danced with the devil
At nineteen, and the god's honest truth is that the pain was heaven
If John hadn't dragged them into it, into his vendetta, his obsession with revenge then Dean never would have grown up required to be a soldier, a killer, another weapon in John's arsenal. It was so fucked up that Dean grew up enjoying it, enjoying putting his life at risk to kill things other kids didn't even know existed, things that rightly scared the hell out of grown men. He was so fucking young and he was so warped and manipulated that he wanted it, he thought it was a good thing.
And now that I'm grown, I'm scared of ghosts
Memories feel like weapons
Now as an adult, he's still afraid of all the things John put in his head and taught him to hate. It's always there and even though John is dead he's still afraid of disappointing him, still afraid of just the memory of John.
And now that I know
I wish you'd left me wondering
Now as an adult, he's gained more insight, he's seen how he was used as a weapon, not loved and cared for like the child he was, and part of him kind of wishes he'd never been drug into it, left wondering about it all because the alternative, the life he's lived, has been so twisted.
If you never touched me I would've
Gone along with the righteous
If John had never drug them into it, even if he had just flat out left, up and vanished instead of dragging them down the same road, they would have gone along and lead normal lives, had normal relationships and not been driven to go down this dark, twisted road.
And if you never saved me from boredom
I could've gone on as I was
If he had never taken them on the road with him, if he had never taken them away from their boring, "apple pie life", they could gave gone on to be normal kids, Dean could have stayed a normal kid instead of a soldier, a weapon, a child, and a parent all at the same fucking time.
But, lord, you made me feel important
John made it seem so great, always sold it as they were special, doing all this to save other people's lives, made Dean think it was his responsibility, even as a kid, to "look out for your brother" and "saving people, hunting things".
And then you tried to erase us
Then, John raises them this way their entire childhoods, 100% of the time, like they never had a life before John decided his vendetta superceded the well being of his preschool and infant sons.
Oh, you're a crisis of my faith
Dean's perception of everyone, of the world, every aspect of life is jaded, mistrustful, suspicious purely because John raised him to never trust anyone except him.
Would've, could've, should've
If I'd only played it safe
There's all the possibilities, the futures that never came about, all the questions and what ifs. 'If I would've grown up normally', 'maybe I could've done something with my life', 'I never should've had all this put on me'. If only Dean had grown up in a normal, safe home with a family who cared for his and Sam's well being.
If clarity's in death, then why won't this die?
Years of tearing down our banners, you and I
John is dead, he's long dead, but everything he did, everything he said, everything he instilled is still there and it won't die with him. No matter what Dean does, trying to separate himself from the weapon John made him, he can't get rid of it, he can't tear it down.
Living for the thrill of hitting you where it hurts
The older they get, especially Dean, the more he sees it and the more things he does that he knows full well his dad would have lost his mind over. Befriending a vampire, being on relatively decent terms with not one but two demons, having an angel, someone who is not human, as a best friend (or more). All that shit would have made John absolutely crazy and Dean knows it.
Give me back my girlhood, it was mine first
John took away Dean’s childhood. He had a childhood, until he was almost 5, and then John ripped it away from him.
God rest my soul
I miss who I used to be
The tomb won't close
Stained glass windows in my mind
I regret you all the time
I can't let this go
I fight with you in my sleep
The wound won't close
I keep on waiting for a sign
Everything John put them through, everything he did, everything he didn't do, was profoundly damaging and neglectful at best if you want to sugarcoat it. The reality is that his entire upbringing from the night his mother died was abusive in so many different ways. The person that little boy could have grown up to be died with his mother that night, and it's impossible to bring him back, to ever be anything resembling who that little boy could have grown up to be. His entire life is a constant reminder of that, of everything, of all the potential that was stolen from him as a little kid.
I regret you all the time
#dean winchester#anti john winchester#fuck john winchester#john winchester was abusive#supernatural#spn#supernatural thoughts#sam winchester#dean and sam were abused
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The thing abt john winchester is that he is too complex for the majority of the spn fandom and for a good portion of the writers on the show too.
Because at his core john is about love over everything else. When he looks up at his sons (yes, up, the fact that they’re both taller than him>>>>>), there is love seeping achingly from every single pore of his being even as he abuses them, as he destroys their souls beyond belief. He does it all entirely out of love. And he is so, so wrong for it. A part of him knows it. But he wants to keep dean alive, and he wants to keep Sam pure. And he loves them so much. And he damages them so horribly. John Winchester is the foundation upon which they are both built, they only become more of what he made them as the series goes on. Sam stops fighting it, Dean continues to mold into his image no matter how hard he tries to fight it.
Hell puts them both on steroids, but their individual trauma responses that influence this are the foundations that John built into them. No wonder azazel wanted sam to win so badly. John Winchester crafted his sons into alastair and Lucifer’s ideal victims, respectively, and dean was a better (worse) john than John ever was. John held out in hell. Dean acquiesced to his abuser despite all of his efforts to fight him, and he’s never been the same since.
Sam fought like hell, and he fought destiny, but at his core, he did what John always wanted him to by doing what dean wanted him to do, and then he stops fighting at all, loses the fire he showed john in adolescence that john immediately notices when he returns in s14.
And the sad thing is. They filled their roles so well that John is saddened by what they’ve become. He didn’t want dean to break. He didn’t want Sam to be dimmed. He’s sad to see what Sam is like in s14. In the process of recovering his wife, he ensured he would mold his sons into what he wanted them to be, and when he got what he wanted, he was devastated.
John Winchester is so driven by love and grief and he’s so filled to the brim with both that it’s painful to watch him on screen because he destroyed his family because of it. And he wanted this all along but he didn’t realize what he’d have to give up to get it.
#supernatural#john winchester#sam winchester#dean winchester#my meta#honestly the thing is#if john had survived past s2#I don’t think he would get the hate he receives today#bc the thing is. jdms portrayal is ridiculously complex and beautiful#that when the majority of people write him they lose all his nuance#the fact that John was gone more than he was there immensely damaged his rep in the eyes of the fandom#I think if John were alive for longer he would get similar treatment to dean#both narratively and fandom perception wise#he already does to some extent amongst some people#he’s an excellent complex character#but people can’t handle complex#that man is an abuser#that man also loves more deeply than anyone#you know who also fits those descriptors?#dean#and look how fandom views him
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my dark vanessa | supernatural | mysterious skin
#do u see my vision.#supernatural#spn#deanjohn#my dark vanessa#mysterious skin#dean winchester#john winchester#my roommates are watching spn so i keep seeing eps and being like alright wots all this then 🤨#i just think the show had the potential to be a really good midwestern gothic horror / family horror piece. like the pieces were all there!#hunting should be a metaphor for the cycle of abuse#john parentified dean when he lost his wife. in a sense he replaced his wife with dean#and dean is devoted to his father on a bizarre and concerning level#john exposed his children to monsters at a young age and now they can't bring themselves to quit even tho it hurts them#hunting kept dean and sam isolated from everyone else. they simultaneously resent him for it AND feel special#dean has no idea how to have a normal relationship with anyone because the only model he has is his own relationship with his father#do u see?? do u get the vision???
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the scene of sam single-handedly playing corrupt lawyer for dean and absolving him of everything wrong he did was CRAZY the man legit gaslighted everyone in the room including himself
#sam is so sexy when he's like this#morally fucked up guy#remember when he was telling the guy who watched dean kill his father as a kid that dean had his reasons#or that he took on Michael bc he was trying to save sam and anything consequential to that was justified <3#the look on my face when he was pathologicaluing dean's unreasonable abuse of jack to jack like girl stop fighting for that man😭#he aint worth all at!!#alas sam's a freak and that's his soulmate so he's going down with that whatever whenever#I guess they were really made each other#and they say romance is dead#samdean#wincest#mine#spn meta
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i’ve said this soooo many times but i cannot believe the widespread fandom take on nightmares is ‘episode that proves john didn’t hit the kids or at least that sam didn’t know about :)’ NO??? that entire episode is to directly parallel sam to max??? i really hate to break it to you guys but sam being like Damn at least we weren’t and aren’t still being regularly beat to shit by the two male parental figures in our lives 🙏 lucky to have dad fr is not the same as him saying Wow i’m so grateful dad never hit us at all. essentially he is literally like ‘if dad had got drunk more often and hadn’t channeled his energy into hunting maybe we would’ve ended up like max. guess i should be grateful he didn’t”. hello. how does that endorse an entirely violence-free parenting style. like have your own interpretation. but the text of the episode isn’t saying John didn’t hit them. the text of the episode is intentionally bringing up the concept of john hitting them, withholding direct judgement/confirmation on whether it happened and keeping it ambiguous, sure, but still bringing it to our attention.
#Supernatural withholds judgement on everything so like.#it does it well in early seasons ambiguity is good! and. Less Well in later seasons#it’s also ironic cause like. i mean they were regularly Getting beat to shit via.#. monster fighting. neglecting to protect kids from physical harm also counts as physical abuse. btw.#but that’s like. the obvious takeaway#and so is dean’s little Look at the end of the ep which is obviously meant to imply that he doesn’t agree with sam. which. well#but like. idk it’s a widespread fandom idea too that if john did hit them he only hit dean. i even used to go by that!! but ur ignoring even#more subtext if u think that#and like#it’s Purposeful that the first psychic kid we see who sam very strongly identifies with#is a kid w a physically abusive father they write like this on purpose….#they do it again with sam in s7 too. him & amy pond r directly paralleled and we see her mom hit her on screen that eps what made me change#my mind re my opinion on this in regards to sam#anyway.#spn#oliver talks#winchester family dynamics#spn 1x14
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you know the more i think about the events of season eight from sam's perspective the more i think. yeah id want to kill myself too
#like coming from being dropped into grief -> losing the foundation you were building very slowly and painfully#-> dropped right into hatred and disbelief -> some semblance of hypocrisy that he also didn't have any right feeling but Felt anyway#because of how close to home it hit (amy‚ his own blood sucking) -> pissing off your Father Figure quote unquote in the afterlife#-> the whole thing about leaving benny in purgatory after dean's valued benny's life openly in front of you#and trying to compartmentalise benny's wishes and body language#-> and the constant undercurrent emotional abuse (dean going from this opague hatred of sam's decisions right into some kind of#weird distrust of sam as a fragile thing that has sam questioning the grounds of their relationship as he jumps between faithfulness#and faithlessness‚ a lot of the former being expressed outwards towards third party relationships)#how the fuck do you deal with ANY of that??#like dean sets the standards of their relationship yes#but what do you do when these standards are all unclear and unknown and changing constantly because of dean's current emotional volatility??#sam winchester#&
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the "Sam is not a woman or child, he is not a weak victim" is probably the WORST thing camed from them because woah it's almost like victims generally can't leave their abusers(what do you mean not all victims are self aware perfect human beings) or man can't get abused( terf vibes)
Also how can people see Dean hitting Sam A LOT OF TIMES and just say
"Bu-but Sam was so mean to Dean that one time!!! H-he is so abusive!!"
Or
"Dean didn't hit Sam the times i want him to hit him so he is not abusive actually he is not hiting him enough."
Yeah i saw the last one on reddit
Oh yeah. We've had this argument for over a decade now and it never stops being infuriating.
Like, these people need to make some special mental gymnastics in order to feel morally superior for liking Dean. And they were so mad when other people argued with actual examples of the show instead of fanfiction metas.
Someone needs to make a prize for all the Sam fans that survived to season 9 and season 10 fandom. At times it was an uphill battle.
#spn#sam winchester#fandom wank#I know a lot of people got triggered by the blatant abuse apologie and left for their mental sake#you don't need an excuse to like Dean. it's the literal gaslighting they were trying to do when the text is right in front of us
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wait yall actually believe that either one of the winchester siblings had a harder/worse childhood than the other and that they weren't both abused and neglected in different ways
#like. yall#dean never should've been the one primarily taking care of sam#sam never would've had his needs met by dean no matter how hard dean tried#cuz dean was a kid#and that's not sams fault or deans fault it's litreally johns fault for not raising his damn kids#and then john neglected and abused both of them in different ways that caused a lot of tension within their family dynamic#and isolated dean and sam from each other#i think in canon it can feel like one sibling had a better childhood cuz they were abused in such different ways u can't really compare#how john treated them#espc when it comes to how its affected both siblings into adulthood. john failed both of them big time#also john loved both of them why is that discourse#he loved both and them but still fucked them over and abused them that's not mutually exclusive there's love in a lot of abusive households#supernatural#supernatural discourse#dean winchester#sam winchester
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even if sam truly had zero control over anything he did to hurt dean he still did those things and dean has the right to be hurt and not immediately force himself to move past that and trust him like he used to like nothing happened, what's hard to understand?
#btw they were both under the influence of the siren in sex and violence#but it's the same old double standard where if sam hurts dean it's not his fault it doesn't matter#if dean hurts sam and isn't perfect he's an abuser
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Tired wired brain idea, angelic names are sacred, they hold power over the angel it belongs to. But only in their language, Enochian, it was created by God to say their names with meaning, any angel called upon God in the name of angels was an absolute honor. It also acted as a reminder of the power God has over every angel he created, there's a reason it's so difficult for angels to have free will. Taking power over their name is forbidden, it's one of the reasons why Lucifer was casted away. Every angel knows the tale no matter how young or old they are, God made it a point to create the angels with this knowledge. It's also why God never gave his name to the angels, even the name Chuck falls flat of power, it's not the angelic language, it's not his true name.
This is all well and good, when angels touch down to Earth, the names they share hold a little power over them, it's why you can call upon them and trick them into a trap. But it's nothing compared to a human saying their true name.
When Castiel met Dean, they rattled off the name humans recognize as the angel of Thursdays and other associations. Meeting Sam though, their true name came out quietly, disrupted by thunder from Uriel, the humans didn't hear it. That didn't mean Castiel wasn't reminded of the dire consequences that can occur if they want to be giving out true names to humans, with the road Sam was on, he hardly counted as human, drifted closer to demonic. Uriel spread the rumor, though they called it a message and warning that Lucifer's vessel is capable of pulling out true names. Be careful and deliberate when speaking to the boy, and only do so when necessary.
This was the first domino to fall of Castiel taking the power over their name. When they picked the Winchesters over heaven, Sam was the first to know Castiel's true name. His pronunciation was horrid but better than Dean's attempts, though they weren't true attempts, Bobby was the closest to saying it correctly. Castiel shared multiple names and peeled back the open wounds of the language, teaching them how to use the language as a tool and weapon.
There's a lot more to delve into but ending on this, Castiel wasn't the first angel to reveal their name to Sam. Lucifer was. Countless thoughts and dreams would land on this name, Sam was never able to locate the source until they revealed themselves in the form of Jessica. Telling Sam he could trust them, giving the name, and telling Sam how to use it. Believing Sam would never be able to have ownership of the vessel once they took over it. Believing there was no power to that name anymore but they could pretend there was to gain Sam's trust. And finding out how wrong they were when Sam harnessed that power over Lucifer long enough to put them back in the cage. Where Lucifer took revenge and etched the language into Sam's head, making the language burn on Sam's tongue, making it so repulsive that Sam would never want to utter a single word from the angelic language. Making him regret ever speaking it, while burning out the original language Sam had spoken on Earth. Hoping to leave Sam without a voice, without any power, but like so many others, Lucifer underestimated Sam and the knowledge they gave Sam was far greater than anything Castiel ever revealed. Allowing Sam enough protection to his vessel to remain safe from Lucifer, but not his mind.
#This was inspired by faes but also the lore in spn as well#I did alter it but I couldn't stop thinking about demons true names they were often kept secret#It gave humans power over them - take Crowley for instance - they were able to dig up his corpse and hurt Crowley through it#So there's already a tangible lead through names holding power#There's so much more to this idea but I am currently trying to avoid my other idea disappearing#And I'm curious what others take away from this#castiel#uriel#sam winchester#dean winchester#bobby singer#lucifer#tw torture#tw abuse#chuck shurley
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The weirdest take I've seen on Reddit is that the show made John Winchester a worse father in the later seasons than he was initially. That the worst he did early on was being a bit distant and training his sons from a young age. And of course, that stuff wasn't that bad because it was necessary to keep them safe.
Just off the top of my head here's what we get from season 1 alone. Dean being traumatized by John's treatment of him following the shtriga attack. John disowning Sam for going to college. John refusing to pick up his phone when Dean is literally dying. John physically intimidating Sam during an argument - one that started simply because Sam refused to go along with whatever John said to do without asking questions. Dean having to physically get between the two of them and having to physically pull them apart before they attacked each other.
There's a load of other stuff from the first 3 seasons as well. If anything, the show took a stronger stance regarding John's terrible parenting in those seasons than any of the later ones. The longer John was dead, the fonder the boys became of him.
#john was shown as controlling and emotionally abusive#he created a cult like family environment and isolated his children far beyond what was warranted for their lifestyle#he turned dean against sam to further isolate sam when he wanted to do something else with his life as a way to control him#ellen and bobby act as foils to refute the argument that what john did was necessary or unavoidable due to his trauma#both were hunters with similar backstories to john who managed to be better parents#dean himself had some choice words to say about john's parenting in season 3#and tbh i don't know how anybody can say john ever hitting his kids is unthinkable#after the fight between him and sam in dead man's blood#john is VERY quick to use physical intimidation against sam and neither boys seem at all surprised by the reaction#and i'm sorry but that is very much not an acceptable way for a father to approach his son - no matter how old the son is#yeah their childhood wasn't full of them cowering from their dad who beats them daily for kicks#but i don't know how anybody can watch s1 and firmly say that john would never even dreamt of decking one of his boys for mouthing off#the way sam and dean speak about their father is incredibly similar to all the men i've known who were hit by their dads#but who don't see it as abuse but as something that made them behave properly#the spn reddit is weirdly huge on minimizing john's abuse and it's soo uncomfy#because the emotional abuse was pretty severe and clearly traumatic to both boys#and the way fans who interpret physical abuse as having occurred are put down as just having read to much fanfic#or wanting to make john a monster with zero textual support#is fucked to me#like look at the show#look at the way john interacts with sam when they argue#look at the way the boys argue with each other#look at the way dean argues with other people#spn#anti john winchester#john winchester's a+ parenting
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I had a S*pernatural dream against my will and it actually made me really sad. Not only did I have a dream about a fandom I stopped caring about after high school, but it made me sad. I’m never sleeping again.
#supernatural#it was weird#there was like no build up#but it was Sarah and John being happy in front of the boys#but the boys were the age of the show and not kids#and they were trying to get them to like join in on family activities#and Sam walked away and also Lucifer was there with them?#and they were talking#and then you just hear Dean yelling#because he didn’t get that growing up#he got yelled at and abused because Sarah was gone and John was a bad father#and Sarah tried to gaslight him about it#and then John had to be like#yeah okay I was a horrible dad haha sorry won’t happen again#and Lucifer was comforting Sam because I think he wanted to possess him again#again? did that ever happen?#idk#but yeah#Dean started crying while yelling#and it woke me up and I was crying
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thinking about how one of the last things john ever tells dean is an admittance that the way he treated him was fucked. & of course this destroys dean and makes it so much harder for him to come to terms w his death right after and with his childhood in general bc he’s spent his entire life chasing after johns approval. he’s spent his entire life telling himself that the way he was treated was okay and justified and that their childhood was good because he could handle it and he was strong enough and that was how it had to be. he’s worshipped john as a hero and seen nothing wrong with any of it. because he’s had to. his entire life is built around this idea there’s nothing else. he’s his dads perfect soldier and punching bag and wife-replacement and suddenly his dads gone & he said he’s sorry and that he shouldn’t have treated dean that way. what the hell is he supposed to do now.
#augh. i don’t know i haven’t seen enough of this show yet but.#thinking about that episode with the abused kid who has psychic powers like sams and sam sees himslef in the kid a lot#but is horrified by the extent of the abuse and keeps saying like. Dean i never thought i’d say this but you’re right dad was pretty good i#guess we were really lucky to have him. it could’ve turned out a very different way.#and deans just like. idk there’s something about his face. like he wants to agree cause this is what he’s always saying but he Cant.#because. well. sams thinking about this kid with circumstances so similar to him who ended up entirely victimised by his father and#thinking Wow i had something that kid didn’t. i had MY dad who was so much better after all (despite kicking me out of the house and#always refusing to support me but wtv)#but really the thing sam had was DEAN.#dean as sam’s protector and john’s golden child and the adult of the family. dean as the person#john winchester comes home to after a hunt the person who tells him it’s okay#dean playing the part of his dead mom and still shielding sammy from the worst of their father and as a result internalising that this was#fine.#what the hell is he going to do now that his fathers dead? after his fathers dead and wrong and theoretically morally weak and admitted hed#raised dean badly?#IDK!!! i’m sure excited to see him continue to break down though#(have just finished s2e2 for future me ref)#supernatural#<- Sorry guys i’m batshit obsessed.#father by the front bottoms dean song of all time#spn#oliver talks
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i hateee the way the supernatural narrative sets up like. relationship conflict through fault because i feel like it's counterintuitive to understanding characterisations and relationship dynamics
#generally im not sure if the way i get my interpretations across makes this clear but I don't care about fault !!#i care about what happened and what it means !! i want to know what it means !! and why they did that !!#'this character is a bad person‚ this character did a bad thing'#it's fiction it will always be morally neutral to me. everything is a piece of the story being told.#me talking about sam's relationship with revenge or dean's abusive tendencies ≠ this character is doing a bad thing that i dislike them for#im just talking about my interpretation of the story being told !!#things were easier when my Guy was a blind lawyer who was also a superhero and just. a weirdo#fun fact everyone he loves gets like the worst treatment ever#he has an ex-wife in a locked psychiatric ward because a villian drove her mad with chemicals#and he cheated on her while her parents were trying to get her divorced from him#he and hus best frienf are in a homoerotic long-plutonic-relationship and he's attemoted to kill this best friend on more than one occasion#he's a priest now ???#<- im so used to stories like this that you stop caring and your first thought is the metaphorical implication#the supernatural fandom should start thinking like this#&
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Instead of saying that it's Mary's fault that John was a bad dad, you can just say you hate women.
#as much as spn fans complain about how the writers treated women the fandom is not much better#to a not insignificant part of the fandom mary not being the idealized perfect mom is on par or worse than John's neglect and abuse#i know supernatural has a problem with women and Mary was underutilized but god damn#imagine dying when your kids are 4 and 6mo and then waking up to them being in their 30s#the entire world has passed you by they were raised in the life you NEVER wanted for them AND they expect you to something you never were#the expectation that Mary should be emotionally mature and understanding is WILD#sam and dean are NOT held to that same standard (and they shouldnt be)#anyway stream labor by paris paloma or whatever?
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do I write my essay about the parallels between the execution of the theme of cycles of abuse in spn and lisa on this blog or my spn blog
#avery.txt#listen! its. really good! the continuation of the cycle! how sam and dean both share attributes with buddy bc they were both raised by men#*who were deeply affected by the loss of a female loved one and that loss manifested in emotional neglect and repression#how buddys outward reaction to brads abuse is more like sam but the effects of his abuse manifest in her more like dean#she deeply resents her father and outwardly rejects him but eventually (in one ending) reconciles with her complicated feelings about him.#but you can see his influence in how she acts in situations based on what he taught her#her father was protective of her; he knew she was special and this terrified him#he and her both turned to substance abuse in order to deal with their trauma#theres a lot!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!#lisaposting
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